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Brown urged to get rid of 'Scots Mafia'



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Published Date: 01 June 2008
LABOUR figures have called on Gordon Brown to purge the "Scots Mafia" around him in an effort to curry favour with voters south of the border.
The Prime Minister is being urged to give key jobs to ministers seen as able to reach out to Middle England amid concern that the party will face a landslide general election defeat at the hands of David Cameron's Conservatives.

MPs believe that m
inisters from south of the border will be better able to appeal to middle-class voters in marginal seats across England.

The call came amid increasing speculation about Brown's future as Labour leader and private warnings that David Miliband needs to "seize his chance" to unseat Brown to save his party from defeat.

Stephen Ladyman, a former minister and the Labour MP for the marginal English seat of South Thanet, said: "It is important to recognise that the election is won or lost in England. We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities."

Lindsay Hoyle, the Labour MP for Chorley, added: "Voters are looking to see a better balance within the cabinet to ensure that all the regions of England are represented."

Keith Vaz, a former minister and a member of Labour's national executive committee, called for Brown to appoint an English deputy prime minister.

He suggested that Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, should take over full responsibility for domestic and economic policy.

Such a change would effectively be a demotion for Chancellor and Edinburgh MP Alistair Darling.

Vaz said: "Gordon has proved to me to be very effective. But now he has got a real opportunity to shake up the Government. There is one way of proceeding without the necessity of a huge reshuffle. There is a post that is vacant at the moment and that is the post of deputy prime minister."

Some MPs believe that Alan Johnson, the health secretary, or James Purnell, the work and pensions secretary, could be given new roles as the English "spokesmen" for the Government.

At present there are four Scots in the cabinet, including Brown and Darling. Douglas Alexander, the international development secretary and Des Browne, the defence secretary, are both close to the Prime Minister. However, some English MPs privately question their ability to communicate with voters south of the border.

One Labour MP, who asked not to be named, reportedly said: "We live in a world where there is a quota for women MPs and there may soon be quotas for black MPs. Why should there not be quotas for the English too? The Scots Mafia have dominated Brown's team for too long."

Labour's poor showing in the Crewe by-election has in part given rise to the anti-Scottish backlash.

The disastrous Labour campaign was run by a Scot, Steve McCabe, a Government whip. He has been criticised for running a negative campaign caricaturing the Conservatives as "toffs", a campaign that backfired among English voters.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband is being warned by allies that he will have "missed his chance" if he fails to mount a leadership challenge to Gordon Brown this summer.

Miliband is being pressed by backbench supporters to 'throw his hat into the ring' in order to force the Prime Minister to quit within the next few months.

But they are also piling pressure on the minister, telling him that he will not be supported if – after an election defeat in 2010 – he decides to go for the leadership then.

One senior Labour source said: "David Miliband won't get the leadership if he goes for it when it's easy, after Brown has lost the election. He is being told he should go for it now, or he won't be backed later."





The full article contains 632 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 June 2008 12:26 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

Senga Jean,

01/06/2008 00:41:54
Is this not RACIST?
2

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 00:48:34
Well don't sent the worthless articles back here.
3

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 01:03:06
From the Independent.

Quoting Vomiting Prescott talking about Slimey Milliband

The former deputy prime minister told an audience at the Hay Festival: "When you look at the candidates... this guy's clearly quite a brilliant lad and will be one of the leaders."

It's enough to make you puke!!!
4

Cincinnatus,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 01:06:46
We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities."


This is the problem of the Union, as long as it has English accent and manners then that's fine. Have an accent with character and your DOOMED!

Now racist, just the outcome of an inequal union, the language of the elephant is ENGLISH. Simple!
5

Conan the Librarian™,

01/06/2008 01:07:38
1
Indeed.
Substitute "white"for the mealymouthed "south of the border".
6

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 01:09:11
Its going to be a close run thing.

Will New Labour Sleaze and Corruption go bankrupt before the Hootsmoan and Sunday Hootsmoan??

Which month (this year) will Comrade Broon be sacrifised for the sake of the Labour trough??

Which month (any year) will Iain Gray say anything sensible??

Which month will Red Wendy re-appear??

Who will buy the Hootsmoan and clear out the so called journalists???
7

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 01:13:58
From the Independent today

"Tories include Clegg in hung parliament plans"

And there was me thinking the Libdums belonged to New Labour Sleaze!!!
8

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 01/06/2008 01:14:47
Scotland being apart of the Union is a MUST.

However, we do not want to see Scots in power in the Union.

Grrr. Scottish Independence!!!!!!!!!!!
9

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 01:19:55
From the Mail on Sunday.



The disclosure that Gordon Brown has been ‘cold-calling’ voters at their homes has sparked a furious inquest among his demoralised team of advisers at Downing Street.

Details of the calls – made to ordinary people who had written to him – were revealed last week in PR Week, a trade journal for the public relations industry, which has become a regular source of insider information on No10.

It claimed that the Prime Minster had rung one startled recipient at 6am, damagingly raising the perception of Mr Brown as a work-obsessed insomniac and prompting his aides to scan frantically through his phone records to check the story.


The disclosure that Gordon Brown has been 'cold-calling' voters has sparked a witchhunt

There was, say sources, "a lot of shouting" among the advisers assembled to face Stephen Carter, the Prime Minister’s head of staff.

"Whoever leaked this to PR Week did so as a hostile act," said one senior Brown aide.

Not really surprising is it Comrade Broon????

10

Guga II,

Rockall 01/06/2008 01:40:41
"some English MPs privately question their ability to communicate with voters south of the border".

Not only is this remark racists, but it begs the question, how are English MP's, when they are in these positions, able to communicate with voters north of the border?

All the Scottish New Labour MP's had better invest in stab-vests, they might need them soon.
11

Son of Loki,

The Dark Side 01/06/2008 01:41:16
I got a phone call from one of these market research people this week asking me about the labour party but I couldn't understand much because it sounded as though the person had suffered a stroke.

Why is the labour party still in power?

Answers on a post card please

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live!

Loki Jnr
12

mesmiths,

fife 01/06/2008 01:44:49
Ladyman need not worry too much. It won't be long till these 'mafia' characters who form the famouse 'raj' are voted out right here. And not long after that we'll be rid of Westminster with it's 'English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities'.
13

Castaway,

01/06/2008 01:46:23
MPs tell Gordon Brown to purge his Scots.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4040175.ece
14

Maisie from Morningside,

01/06/2008 01:49:14
Of course if these Scots were Olympic gold medalists or Nobel prizewinners they'd soon be reclassified as "British"

The hypocrisy of the English media on this subject is getting tiresome.
15

Son of Loki,

The Dark Side 01/06/2008 01:50:33
And there was me thinking racism was all about colour. Shows you what I know. I take it then, if I can't call an Irishman 'Mick' then no one can call me 'Jock'

But Jock's ma real name! Oh heck, people are frightened to say anything now, even patronizing English MPs still talk about holidaying in Scotland as though it was some kind of punishment from the chief whip! Half of them couldn't find their way here anyway.

So, where are we? Any further forward, I thought not, looks like rain dear, put the kettle on while I stick a tea cosy on my head and believe what the government tells me what to believe.

Is that another Scotsman selling his country downstream in order to be liked in London? Why yes it is, what will we do now?

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live!

Loki Jnr
16

Guga II,

Rockall 01/06/2008 01:52:38
I wonder what AM Squared, the sycophant who is so fond of the English that he wants us all to embrace them, would have to say to that bit, i.e. "We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities."

What about it AM Squared, isn't that racist?
17

,

01/06/2008 02:57:44
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Reason:
18

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 03:03:10
With Comrade Broon now 'cold calling' people and warning them they must vote New Labour Sleaze, do you think if I phoned Red Wendy she would forward me a copy of her e-mails, re the illegal backhanders???
19

Fanling,

Switzerland 01/06/2008 03:09:17
To all those sleekit tw@ts urging Brown to get rid of his "Scots mafia" ... Before Blair and his slack-jowled successor, the UK government (that includes Scotland for the thick who subscribe to this Scots mafia crap), was comprised almost solely of English MPs. Did we Scots and other non-English ever complain?

Back then, I never heard any of my contemporaries gripe openly about the overwhelming number of English MPs, even if we Scots and others all felt kind of marginalised. I hear others above say the word "racist". I don't recognise that word even if I empathise with its sentiments. In UK politics we have reached an impasse. So ... give the English, and their crawling Scots sympathisers, back their government. To govern England, that is. We'll all be happy then and have nobody else to blame.



20

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 01/06/2008 03:29:32
"At present there are four Scots in the cabinet, including Brown and Darling. Douglas Alexander, the international development secretary and Des Browne, the defence secretary, are both close to the Prime Minister. However, some English MPs privately question their ability to communicate with voters south of the border."

Funny, many Scots question their ability to communicate with voters north of the border
21

democracy,

Scottish Borders 01/06/2008 04:22:05
It is simple, Holyrood governs Scotland and Westminster governs England, PROBLEM SORTED!!!!!!!
22

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 01/06/2008 04:41:16
What are those poor Scottish Labour MP's serving in england going to do when their Scottish electorate stop voting for them??? Being that all the Scottish crap from the conservative government are all now living in england, then it only makes sense that the Slimey labour mp's should join them, for they will not be welcomed back here in SCOTLAND, after INDEPENDENCE!!!!
23

,

01/06/2008 04:45:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
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24

,

01/06/2008 04:47:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
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25

,

01/06/2008 04:49:14
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26

dougie1976,

01/06/2008 05:07:47
Disgraceful anti-Scottish racism.

After Thatcher's disastrous performances was it ever suggested that she get rid of her "English mafia". This was an anti-Scottish party that no-one in Scotland voted for, yet we were stuck with it for 25 years. And if we dared complain about what was basically an English dictatorship we were just "whinging jocks".

What hypocrisy.

Instead of standing up to this vicious anti-Scottish racism, Brown has played to it. It is now a frenzy.

The sooner we are out this vile union, the better.
27

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 05:14:31
From the Independent.

Tories include Clegg in hung parliament plans


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-include-clegg-in-hung-parliament-plans-837810.html


And I thought New Labour Sleaze and Corruption owned the Libdums??
28

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 01/06/2008 06:59:43
If the SNP was calling for quotas that ensure that Scots make up a given percentage of top positions in Scottish public life there would be an outcry.

I thought one of the 'benefits' of the union was inclusion on a bigger stage - obviously not if you are a 'talented' (ahem) Scottish Labour politician.

What happened to true equality - advancement through personal ability?.

This racism that should make Westminister Labour Scots sick. Will we here critisism of this from them? - no.

What a bunch of complete and utter muppets.

29

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 07:28:27

Who is plagiarising whom?

This story is almost exactly word for word the same as the lead story in the Sunday Times.

Has this once decent newspaper been reduced to publishing Labour press releases and stealing their rival’s copy?

Shame.
30

Pol J,

Glasgow 01/06/2008 07:40:46
How hard up is SoS. I read this story word for word last night in the Sunday Times. And SoS have the cheek to put TWO nmaes on the byline. Presumably one to press cut and the other to press paste.

You should be ashamed.
31

Pol J,

Glasgow 01/06/2008 07:41:34
Some examples

SoS - LABOUR figures have called on Gordon Brown to purge the "Scots Mafia" around him in an effort to curry favour with voters south of the border.

ST - Gordon Brown is under pressure to axe the so-called Scots mafia who dominate his top team of ministers and to promote “English voices” into more high-profile roles.

SoS - The Prime Minister is being urged to give key jobs to ministers seen as able to reach out to Middle England amid concern that the party will face a landslide general election defeat at the hands of David Cameron's Conservatives.

ST - Amid concern that Labour is risking a landslide general election defeat, Brown is being urged to give key jobs to ministers who can reach out to middle-class voters in England’s marginal seats.

SoS - Stephen Ladyman, a former minister and the Labour MP for the marginal English seat of South Thanet, said: "It is important to recognise that the election is won or lost in England. We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities."

ST - Stephen Ladyman, a former roads minister who is MP for Thanet South, a marginal constituency, said: “It is important to recognise that the election is won or lost in England. We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities.”

32

Jwil,

01/06/2008 07:48:36
This just demonstrates that Scots living, working and visiting England are foreigners.

33

Jock's Away,

Africa 01/06/2008 07:56:50
When empires decay and rot there must be a cause or scapegoat or both. The national label has been used rather than them all being, CHANCERS. The glories, honor, and values of the Union what ever they were are fast diminishing, The past is to learn from, The future starts today, Scotland as a region of Europe and not as a province of Westminister. But be careful of the wish, pimps and parliamentarians operate in the same way no matter what nationality.
Note: RACE is an anthropological term to catergorise human beings into sub physical groups defined by nature not national groups defined by geopolitical borders . Terms and language corrupted by politicians for interest groups.
34

gus1940,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 08:05:37
So much for the 'glorious union'

Another brilliant own goal for Labour in Scotland.
35

,

01/06/2008 08:07:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
36

Geoff,

sa 01/06/2008 08:18:05
I do not believe that Scots-English racism is a significant factor in the current debate per se, although Nationalist on both sides of the border will stir things to suit their agendas. Inasmuch as English-Scots tensions have risen over recent years it can be attributed to one major issue-the lack of an English Parliament. Such a Parliament is inevitable. Once this Parliament is established the proverbial wind will be taken out of Nationalist sails and Westminster can revert to its correct and proper role as the BRITISH parliament. In a British parliament the composition of the cabinet-Cornish,Scots Yorkshire would be of no consequence and this issue would then no longer be able of exploitation by wicked Nats!!!
37

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 08:18:16
I agree there are too many Scots in the Cabinet. The mess Calamity Brown is making of everything, and the greed of Gorbals Mick, is giving Scots a bad reputation by association. Time for heads to roll and for new faces to reform and revise.
38

Geoff,

sa 01/06/2008 08:36:27
Morning traquir! never took you for a "Telegraph" man!?
39

Geoff,

sa 01/06/2008 08:46:04
41 Traquir-Iraq was a bizarre abberation that was opposed by peoples from all over the UK. I could make no sense of Tony Blairs support for this adventure and in retrospect it is a decision that is now seen in hindsight to have been a disaster by virtually all the peoples of Britain. What I am trying to say(rather inelegantly) is that we are all on the same page here. Federation would combine and continue the many common elements of our British heritage-the military being a proud example of this heritage.
40

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 01/06/2008 08:48:15
#42 Which paper DO rabid Nats read.
41

Geoff,

sa 01/06/2008 08:56:52
Hi Traquir-the reference to 'wicked Nats' was meant in the nicest possible way and to apply to those of the Nationalist persuasion in all four home nations-no insult intended-some of my best friends etc..!!

What you are saying is that Scots are inherently(culturally and biologically?) different from their cousins elsewhere in the british isles. Political nuances in a small island are probably due in the main to economic influences and their associated cultural traits. I do not believe that there is anything inherent in a Scotsmans makeup that would by nature make him more opposed to nuclear weapons than an englishman. I am an ethnic Scot schooled in both of the "Isles" and brought up in the colonies. I support Britains continued ownership of nuclear weapons on purely pragmatic grounds. Its a dangerous world and the mad others will have the nuclear option so thus must we! I again am prob on the same page as you in regarding them as frankensteins playthings
42

Cadgers,

Auchterarder 01/06/2008 08:56:57

Traquir,
Alba 01/06/2008 08:34:44...

Very well said sir!
43

Calum10,

01/06/2008 08:58:24
Labour's political transformation is now complete it is now THE LITTLE ENGLANDER PARTY.
44

Alan Reid,

NZ 01/06/2008 08:58:49
Hello AM it would seem that I was right. The English are biggoted and with "Brown urged to get rid of Scottish mafia" my statment confirms this. Only problem for Brown is, he's a "Sweaty" and the people of middle England don't want a Jock as PM.
So much for your Union of equals.
45

Geoff,

01/06/2008 09:02:58
45 Mercutio-Morning! The Scottish Socialist Voice? :)
46

Geoff,

sa 01/06/2008 09:06:32
Traquir-not stalling, but my wife requests and requires that I take her to brunch-will answer you later!Hope yous are getting some summer.
47

iang,

Glasgow 01/06/2008 09:07:24
"One Labour MP, who asked not to be named, reportedly said: "We live in a world where there is a quota for women MPs and there may soon be quotas for black MPs. Why should there not be quotas for the English too? The Scots Mafia have dominated Brown's team for too long.""

What does Labour in Scotland say to this with their support of the Union?


"Labour MP for the marginal English seat of South Thanet, said: "It is important to recognise that the election is won or lost in England. We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities.""

And this is exactly why Scotland needs a strong independent voice.
48

Geoff,

sa 01/06/2008 09:19:13
Traquir-agin my wifes wrath a quick comment.I did not mean anything remotely racist in my 'biologically' comment. I am only trying to understand the nature of 'inherent' differences. If they are (obviously) not biological then they must relate to environment in the broad sense of the word. If that is the case then there is nothing to stop Scots in the future from becoming more right wing in a changing environment.
49

Chalmers,

01/06/2008 09:19:48
Gordon Brown must answer English Question

By Frank Field

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/06/01/do0104.xml
50

Ananurhing,

01/06/2008 09:26:03
Interesting that the only "bungs" going around the labour party these days are the ones attempting to keep their sinking ship afloat.
This isn't quite the 'reform' needed. This is patch and make do, and hope against hope that they can make it through.
Desperate stuff from a bankrupt party with nowhere to go.
51

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 09:29:41
#41 Traquir, Alba.

Re proposals for a Federal GB: A successful scheme would require GB to divide into its traditional fiefdoms: Wessex, Northumbria, Alba, Cwmry, etc. Each would have considerable internal autonomy including tax raising. Residual matters that concern all would remain at the Federal level (currency, foreign relations, defence, etc). The US, Canada, Switzerland, Australia, and the like provide several leads here. The Monarchy and the Lords would remain as long as we wanted them. Lots to debate, but let's debate it together with the other two options union and separation.
52

Roballe,

Aberdeen 01/06/2008 09:47:26
Racism? You’re behind the times. Just as global warming was redefined as climate change, people now prefer to talk about tribal affiliation. People are not racist, as such, that’s a negative concept. However, seeking the security of a tribal affiliation in our modern-day global environment is understandable.

Given the current RBS debacle, difficulties attributed in part to what’s seen as a chauvinistic bias against appointing anyone who is not Scottish to the top table, so too the failure of New Labour is being blamed on its predominate so-called tartan mafia. Even the disastrous Crewe & Nantwich campaign was masterminded by a Scot, a man who totally misread the local electorate and failed to appreciate a growing divergence in cultures. Current negative press reflects the growing fashion to associate Scots with failure. It will pass soon enough, but for the moment remains bad news for those lucrative voiceovers by Scottish thespians.
53

Ananurhing,

01/06/2008 09:56:44
#62 Rules
'I have a dream'

So you'd be willing to debate civilly with those of us less intelligent than you?

As has been pointed out many times, independence would be a necessary precursor to exploring any federal options.
54

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 01/06/2008 09:57:45
#52 Geoff. Me Socialist? God forbid I am a Telegraph reader who supports the Union but would rather have independence than devolution.
55

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 10:13:05
Rulesbutnotrulers,

"I agree there are too many Scots in the Cabinet."

Let's set aside whether this is inherently racist; perhaps these are felt to be the most appropriately qualified persons to do the job.

Do you accept that for most of the last 300 years Scots, Irish and Welsh could have said the same ? Get away from a hang up about where someone is born. Look at their abilities or skills. Difficult here as Liebour are knackered so these "scots" are probably the least inept of a totally useless bunch.

Come eventual independence I frankly would not care where my politicians came from - including England - so long as they are competent and genuine and get the job done.

I might also observe here the total lack of support for your federalist suggestion despite you having posted it repeatedly in many threads. Are you taking the hint yet ?
56

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 10:18:30
# 69 Bob Christie,

" It is important to recognise that the election is won or lost in England. We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities."

Ah the VERY embodiment of the "union dividend" !!!!"

The man is a racist buffoon. There are english members (and elected representatives) in all scots based parties including the SNP which is as it should be and good for inclusive democracy. You have to wonder here; is he saying the accent's too hard ? Bet he wouldn't say he finds, say, someone with one of many Asian accents speaking hard to understand - he needs to make the effort.

Thanet is under pressure from BNP. Pandering to this racist crew by making such arguments makes him look foolish, and boosts their chances. Unionists up here must look on these comments and shudder - that'll be some more recruits for independence then.
57

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 10:36:14
39

"I agree there are too many Scots in the Cabinet."

I thought we were all supposed to be British?
Isnt the cabinet not comprised of British nationals then? or is there at last an admitance by the UK establishment that there is to be a distinction in being British English and British Scots when it comes to sharing power within the UK?
58

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 10:40:08
62

Something along these lines you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands
59

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 10:40:21
#65 Traquir.

Technically, as well as practically, Scotland is not and never has been a Nation in the modern understanding of that word. One reason for this is that we already are part of the British Nation, a situation I wish to preserve via a federation of several, equal, autonomous, traditional/historic Cantons (if this word causes less pain) such as Alba, Northumbria, Wessex, etc as cited. Thus we here can be Scottish AND British, as we already are legally, historically, factually.

I am happy to discuss Federalism as it is the elephant in the room that is now being noticed by those with eyes to see it (#70 above?).

It is NOT necessary to discuss it only after independence any more than one has to be divorced before discussing co-habitation (#67 above?).
60

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 10:43:10
62

And how do you propose to do all of that without first disolving the act of union?
61

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 10:46:40
75

Now youre just establishing your credentials as a troll. That statement has no value other than to sh!t stir. You know nations cannot become a Federation without giving up their individual nationalities so now you try to deny there are no individual nations within the UNION of KINGDOMS.
Like I said you are posting now only to sh!t stir and not to debate.
62

Plainthinking,

edinburgh 01/06/2008 10:47:09
75. re nationhood
i gather you refer to the modern socio-democratic state as evolved over last 150 years or so, but for example that logic would extend to all colonial independence movements, are we to revisit that as well?
63

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 10:52:39
How many posters on here are working for the Scotsman and how many are on here looking for genuine debate?
64

Rodster,

Glasgow 01/06/2008 10:53:59
So if I were to suggest that we should not have any Blacks , Asians ,Jews or Catholics in government because they are minorities this would be ok?
But Unionists like Barnes here and other Uncle Tom's do not feel the outrage at such comments.
They promote a Union that wants to exclude us from any meaningful input?
Why does anyone in Scotland want to vote Unionist it is beyond my reasoning.
65

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 10:54:28
Oh dearie me. As the Labour Party unravels so doth the Union.

A major demonstration of how little the English understand (we know they don't care) how the Scots think.

Brown even being ASKED to purge his cabinet of Scots will go down like a lead balloon in Scotland never mind if he actually does it.

66

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 10:57:18
75

Is Scotland a Kingdom or not?
67

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 10:57:48
# 75, Rulesbutnotrulers,

"Technically, as well as practically, Scotland is not and never has been a Nation in the modern understanding of that word."

Define please. Is surely not a definition of a nation a country with its own defined parliament, religion and legal systems notably distinct ?

"One reason for this is that we already are part of the British Nation"

I accept you think this to be the case, but - if Scotland is not and never has been a nation in your estimation, how is Britain definable as such ? Can I also point out the use of "we" is perhaps slightly presumptious; I do not and never have considered myself British; I have no problem with you doing so, but don't use it to speak for all Scots.

"I am happy to discuss Federalism as it is the elephant in the room that is now being noticed by those with eyes to see it (#70 above?)."

Err, no. I was saying that despite you raising this many times, noone/barely anyone seems interested. It isn't so much an elephant in the room as morelike a tiny pebble on the surface of the moon in terms of importance as far as most people are concerned.

"It is NOT necessary to discuss it only after independence any more than one has to be divorced before discussing co-habitation"

Actually I agree with you, it can be discussed at any time - if and when anyone actually shows an interest.
68

Hamish Scott,

01/06/2008 11:01:42
4 Scots in the Cabinet (out of 23) - and Defence, International Development, the Economy and the office of Prime Minister are all UK wide issues. If this constitutes a 'Scottish mafia' it suggests a remarkable level of intolerance.
It also suggests that Scottish politicians will effectively be barred from the senior Cabinet posts including PM and severely restricted in number. This will lead to Scottish politicians seeing their best prospects as being within the Scottish Parliament, which they will then want to increase the powers of to increase their own stature. Hardly a unionist masterstroke down south, or have they seen the writing on the wall?
69

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 11:02:53
When Cameron and the English national party take control after the next election how many Scots Irish or Welsh will be in their cabinet?
70

,

01/06/2008 11:03:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
71

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:04:05
#85, well put. Not only is it a perfect recruiting masterstroke for the SNP, but one wonders, as others have said, if we are such an issue cut us loose now and give us independence now, rather than when the oil runs out. At least that would be honest. Fat chance.
72

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:05:43
Jack Straw said something very interesting on the Andrew Marr programme today. It concerned dropping the first past the post system for Westminster in favour of a more democratic preferential voting system.

Is he looking to the 'not too far off day' day when Labour has to try and defeat the Tories without the help of its normally large Scottish representation?

This could be the last major piece of legislation by this Labour government to maximise its Party's number of MPs at future Westminster elections following Scottish Independence.
73

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:09:51
#89, I think you are right you know. And this would be beneficial for the SNP vote in exactly the same way that the changed electoral system has been in Scotland for both local government and Holyrood elections. Bring it on.
74

Mike555,

01/06/2008 11:10:40
Liebor should just ditch G. Brown, A. Darling, D. Alexander, and D. Browne. They won't be missed and none of the forgoing will be remembered in 10 years anyway.
75

Nikostratos,

01/06/2008 11:10:45
Change the term Scot with Black and would this story have ever been written let alone printed.
76

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 11:12:26
84

No it is not necessary to discuss Federal options only after Independence but it sure as sh!t requires Independence from this union in order to implement a Federal option.
77

,

01/06/2008 11:18:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:51:22
# 91, Mike555,

"Liebor should just ditch G. Brown, A. Darling, D. Alexander, and D. Browne. They won't be missed and none of the forgoing will be remembered in 10 years anyway."

Well, maybe not (don't forget Wendy either btw). After all, each day that passes they, in their demonstrable ineptitude, add more and more support for independence. I'd keep the lot of them until at least the next Westminster election, when they'll get punted oot anyway.
79

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:54:24
# 80, Commited to Independence,

"How many posters on here are working for the Scotsman and how many are on here looking for genuine debate?"

Rulesbutnotrulers must be a scotsman hack. Always gets quotes in the online debate section printed in the scotsman and evening news.

Rules, how about an answer to my post (#84 ?)
80

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 12:02:29
#79 Traquir.

A nation also has its own armed forces, international agreements,UN seat, EU seat, currency, etc. Scotland has never had all of these. True, some warlords in the past have passed themselves off as kings (mostly foreigners like Bruce, etc), but by modern standards a nation? No.

You comment: Nevertheless, even going with your view of Scotland being a Canton
can you answer the two questions I asked :

1. Will all members (be they Cantons, Regions, States or Fiefdoms)of the Federation (whoever they are) be completely equal partners ? Yes.
2. Who will be the members of such a Federation ? Everyone in GB.


#81 McMadman.

You may style yourself as you wish, but that doesn't make it a fact. You may say you are a Martian, but I'd hae ma doots. Fact are chiels that winnae ding: we are legally British and Scottish, as a Texan is American and Texan. You cannot opt out of this I'm afraid. It just goes with the territory.

And I have evidently interested at least one person in Federal matters-you! Even the longest journey begins with but a single step.
81

Dougie, Edinburgh,

01/06/2008 12:04:33
Ironic that so many of the "English" alternatives are not ethnically English at all: Miliband, Straw and Vaz for example.
82

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 01/06/2008 12:05:34
Everyone in Scotland should remember Ladyman's comments.

Sums up exactly WHY we need out of this union.
83

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 12:10:03
Rules, #81 wasn't me. You still haven't answered my post (#84). Nor Traquirs at 97. You simply make unsupported statements.

The making of an assertion by you is not proof that what you assert is true. On what basis are we legally british and were we not a counrty before the act of union ?

And - to be clear - I'm not interested in federalism. I support independence as my posts make clear (for the most part...). I am simply pointing out that noone (other than Traquir) has engaged in your debate, pointing out it's no elephant in the room but it is an irrelevancy.

Note you don't deny being a scotsman hack tho.... interesting.
84

Publius,

London 01/06/2008 12:15:42
This article and most of the posts on the board are drivel. Brown isn't under fire from some Labour MPs because he's a Scot. He's under fire because he's leading them over a cliff. Scottishness is a cover for their discontent. If Brown was winning by-elections they would be gurgling about canniness, steadfastness and all the 'good' characteristics of the Scottish stereotype.
85

McMadman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 12:17:19
Rules,

"A nation also has its own armed forces, international agreements,UN seat, EU seat, currency, etc. Scotland has never had all of these."

Well, when previously independent, the UN and EU did not exist. Scotland did indeed have its own parliament, a shared monarchy (from a scots lineage),army a (tiny) navy, it's own currency, distinctive religion and culture, languages and dialect, and so on.

It had entered into numerous treaties/alliances with other countries in trade and warfare scenarios. It met the tests that you apply (save UN/EU which it could not as they didn't exist).

So, do you now accept it was a country and nation pre union or not ?
86

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 12:28:49
#100 Madman. Sorry. The answer was meant to your question as in #84.

What parts of my various ansers don't you understand?

#102.

You make my point. Scotland has never been a nation as now understood. For example it had NEVER until the Union had agreed borders. Also, much of the 16C 17C fighting was between Scots so then clearly not a united country, as is required for the defintion. For upwards of thirty thousand years Briton was one nation in terms of shared culture, religion, language, borders, etc. Two thousand years ago Rome (church and state) began to tear us apart; sadly SNP continues this mindless destruction.
87

Boggle fey the Bog,

01/06/2008 12:29:42
97 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 12:02:29

A nation also has its own armed forces, international agreements,UN seat, EU seat, currency, etc. Scotland has never had all of these. True, some warlords in the past have passed themselves off as kings (mostly foreigners like Bruce, etc), but by modern standards a nation? No.

You don't half talk garbage puddin heid!
I suppose England has got an indigenous monarchy then, not a German one!!! Or indeed that The Stewarts were just 'Foriegn Warlords', as I said you talk shee i te!!

Scotland is one of the oldest Nation's in the World, even older than 'England', the Scottish Saltire is one of the oldest national flags in the world, we had one before England was even thought of!!!

As for International agreements, we had those with France, Spain, Scandinavia, The German States, etc. We had a Standing Army and a Scottish Military and Mercantile Fleet ALL Before the FCUKIN UNION.

You are a shyster and Onionist apologist and I would suggests that you Actually start to do some research before you start spouting your total drivel, concerning 'Federation' or decrying Scotland.

Begone you apology for human being, and total waste of skin.
88

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 12:35:49
103

Is Scotland a Kingdom or not?
89

Publius,

London 01/06/2008 12:36:43
#97 Boggle Boggle
The Stewarts originated in France. The Hanoverians in Germany. So what?
The royal family isn't that much different from the rest of us. One in four children now born in the UK has at least one parent who was born outside the UK.
90

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 12:40:33
#104 Bogle.

As you are now reduced to argument by insult, I shall not deal with any of your points other than to say I don't think I mentioned England once; that I am opposed to this Union and that we Britons lived in Scotland for 30k years before the alien Scotti invaded and poisoned your mind, and tongue.
91

Boggle fey the Bog,

01/06/2008 12:40:48
Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 12:28:49
#100 Madman. Sorry. The answer was meant to your question as in #84.

What parts of my various ansers don't you understand?

#102.

"You make my point. Scotland has never been a nation as now understood. For example it had NEVER until the Union had agreed borders. Also, much of the 16C 17C fighting was between Scots so then clearly not a united country, as is required for the defintion. For upwards of thirty thousand years Briton was one nation in terms of shared culture, religion, language, borders, etc. Two thousand years ago Rome (church and state) began to tear us apart; sadly SNP continues this mindless destruction."


You are talking compleat sh i te now me owld son, you are making this up as you go along aren't you!!!

You will be telling us all next that Boadicea is the rightful King of Scotland.

Britain was never a country, what is known as Britain is a result of English Imperialist expansion from the 10c onwards.

If the best that you can do is work for this rag, as that is the conclusion that I am drawing along with others, is that you are here only to up the 'site hits' to try to keep your apology for a newspaper going.

However with the latest 'sales figures' you'll soon be on the 'dole'.

As a by I am still waiting fro the answers to the questions about your successful 'Federations' such as Belgium, which is currently collapsing under the weight of it's 'Federalism'.

Be gone Numptie!!!
92

Dougie, Edinburgh,

01/06/2008 12:47:56
101 Publius
Yes and no. If Brown were popular, they'd shut up about their resentment. Since he's unpopular they're free to attack him on ethnic grounds.

The Labour Party is home to many competing political traditions and subgroups. Some of these define themselves at least partly on an ethnic basis.

Currently, the party is dominated by Scots at a national (ie. UK) level however their hold is quite tenuous because of their likely upcoming election defeat. Other ethnic groups with designs on greater influence in the party include Jews and Asians.

To get an idea of Labour Party politics at a local level outside Scotland have a read of:

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/politics-news/2008/04/28/asian-village-politics-and-its-effect-on-postal-voting-65233-20830149/

When a shameless promoter of his own narrow ethnic group’s interest like Keith Vaz calls for less of another ethnic group in positions of power, based explicitly on the ethnicity of the people involved, I’m reminded of the squalid struggle between various ethnic groups (Russian, Jewish, Georgian) for control of the Communist party after the success of the Russian Revolution.
93

Boggle fey the Bog,

01/06/2008 12:52:09
106 Publius,London 01/06/2008 12:36:43
#97 Boggle Boggle
The Stewarts originated in France. The Hanoverians in Germany. So what?
The royal family isn't that much different from the rest of us. One in four children now born in the UK has at least one parent who was born outside the UK.

Thais not the point, the point is that the Stuarts, were not 'Foriegn Warlords', but were the Kings Stewards, and became the Royal Family of Scotland, given that the recognised birthplace of the Stuart Dynasty is the Royal Burgh of Renfrew, Renfrew Castle being their 'Home Turf', or as it is know locally as the 'Cradle of the Stuarts'.

The first of the Stuart Kings was born in Scotland, the First of the present encumbents at Buck House was born in Brunswick-Luneberg in 1660
94

Boggle fey the Bog,

01/06/2008 12:52:34
106 Publius,London 01/06/2008 12:36:43
#97 Boggle Boggle
The Stewarts originated in France. The Hanoverians in Germany. So what?
The royal family isn't that much different from the rest of us. One in four children now born in the UK has at least one parent who was born outside the UK.

Thais not the point, the point is that the Stuarts, were not 'Foriegn Warlords', but were the Kings Stewards, and became the Royal Family of Scotland, given that the recognised birthplace of the Stuart Dynasty is the Royal Burgh of Renfrew, Renfrew Castle being their 'Home Turf', or as it is know locally as the 'Cradle of the Stuarts'.

The first of the Stuart Kings was born in Scotland, the First of the present encumbents at Buck House was born in Brunswick-Luneberg in 1660