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It’s the Hillary factor, stupid – Clinton battles image crisis

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Published Date: 23 December 2007
IT WAS a blunt question for US Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Rodham Clinton at the end of a long campaign day. A young man said he knew a lot of people who just did not like her, and he wanted to know what she could do about it.
She agreed there are people who will never vote for her. “It breaks my heart, but that is true,” she said, suggesting it is just part of the game when you stick to your principles. But with less than two weeks to go to the Iowa caucuses, her campaign is making a bigger effort to confront the nagging matter of her likeability and electability.

Clinton has begun showing off a softer side – inviting friends, New York constituents and family members to Iowa to speak for her and attest to her warmth, compassion and hearty laugh.

It is a noticeable change for the New York senator, who has spent most of the campaign emphasising her toughness – from her muscular views on national security to her stated willingness to “deck” political opponents.

The campaign has launched a new website, thehillaryiknow.com, featuring video tributes from people who have known her over the course of her life – ranging from her mother to General Wesley Clark.

Clinton has also revamped her stump speech to be more personally revealing, and appears to have modulated her voice a bit to make it sound smoother and softer.

The Iowa caucus is the first in a series of state votes to determine which candidates will represent their parties in the presidential race, and can make or break candidates.

The effort to soften Clinton’s image began when her mother, Dorothy Rodham, and daughter, Chelsea, campaigned for the former First Lady in Iowa and appeared in new commercials being broadcast in the state.

The issue of personality has bedevilled Clinton throughout her career in public life and carries particular resonance now that she is locked in a three-way battle in Iowa and trying to close the sale with undecided caucus-goers.

“It goes straight to the perception that she is cold, calculating and devoid of human warmth,” said Dennis Goldford, professor of political science at Drake University in Des Moines. “Many Democrats either believe those things are true or they know people who believe them to be true, and that speaks to concerns about her electability.”

For her part, Clinton said last week that she had agreed somewhat reluctantly to the new emphasis on her personal side.

“I know people say, ‘We’ve got to know more about her, know more about her personally. It’s not easy for me to talk about myself,” she said.

Her husband says he supports the effort to stress her relationships with family and friends. “I think it’s good to hear from people who really know her as opposed to what others have said about her for more than a dozen years,” he said. “What you’re trying to do here is accelerate a process for Iowa caucus-goers that has already happened in New York, in Arkansas, in every place she’s ever lived and worked.”

Her strategists also noted that the personal testimonials carry an important additional message: they emphasise the changes people say she’s brought their lives, in an election year in which voters say they are seeking a candidate who can bring change to Washington.

Even so, Clinton still has her work cut out for her.

Graduate David Dickey, 25, the man who asked her the likeability-electability question, said it was still a concern – and one reason he might caucus for Obama.

“I like her and I think she’d be a good president. But as a caucus-goer, I think we need to get the most electable person,” he said. “I base my decisions on the people I know. A lot of them are independents, and I think it’s important to get them on a Democrat’s side.”

Mark Penn, Clinton’s lead strategist and pollster, said her team had always planned to emphasise her personal qualities during the campaign’s closing days. They accelerated the plan after rivals began criticising her more forcefully, Penn said.

“It’s the result of the attacks that Barack Obama and John Edwards have made on her. So it’s very important for people to understand the full extent of what Hillary’s done and the people she’s helped,” Penn said.

Other advisers said the decision to play up Clinton’s personal side came at the urging of her Iowa team, who felt strongly that caucus-goers were familiar with her public record but needed to feel more comfortable with her.

In an AP-Yahoo News national poll released last month, just 41% of voters said Clinton was likeable, compared with 54% for Obama and 49% for Edwards, two Democrats who also are running strong in Iowa.

More recently, a CBS News-New York Times poll this month found only 3% of Clinton supporters said they back her because she is likeable, compared with 26% who said it was because she is married to former President Bill Clinton and 23% who said she has the right experience.

Eight per cent of Obama’s supporters said they chose him because they like him, while 27% selected him because of his newness.

Clinton has faced comments during a presidential debate about her choice of jacket and newspaper coverage about how much cleavage she showed one day on Capitol Hill. As First Lady from 1993 to 2001, she was the topic of endless attention over her hair styles and skirt lengths.

Looks have always mattered in politics, particularly since television has provided a stream of close-ups of candidates, starting with the TV presidential debate in which Richard Nixon debated against a younger, more handsome John Kennedy in 1960.

Clinton is not the only woman to face such a harsh glare. German Chancellor Angela Merkel received plenty of unwelcome attention last year after an unflattering photograph appeared of her changing into a bathing suit while on holiday.

Such attention on women is one of the last vestiges of men’s resistance to sharing power, said Eleanor Smeal, head of the Feminist Majority Foundation.

“I don’t think it has anything to do with wrinkles. I think there’s a hesitancy among men to share power,” said Smeal. “What the Clinton race shows is that women now are a force to be reckoned with as candidates.”

The double standard for men and women is more about ageing than looks, said Kristi Andersen, political science professor at the Maxwell School at Syracuse University.

“The grey-haired nice-looking man is a symbol of authority, and we haven’t gotten there for women,” she said.

Family ties

Hillary’s mother Dorothy has been on the campaign trail to vouch for her daughter’s leadership credentials.

“What I would like people to know about Hillary is what a good person she is… She was like a lot of other little girls except that Hillary was kind of a leader… I think that she ought to be elected because she’s the best qualified. I would vote for Hillary even if she weren’t my daughter.”

But having daughter Chelsea tag along has highlighted the senator’s combative manner. Chelsea, below, complained to her mother after Hillary told the US Chamber of Commerce that young people today “think work is a four-letter word.”

“I said, ‘I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to convey the impression that you don’t work hard,’” Clinton said later. “I just want to set the bar high because we are in a competition for the future.”

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  • Last Updated: 22 December 2007 9:19 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Hillary Clinton
 
1

Livingstone,

23/12/2007 01:05:55
"Hillary banned military uniforms from the White House. After it was observed that it didn't go over well politically, they were grudgingly approved for wear ONLY at official functions."

While she was the first lady I was told by some of my counterparts that Hillary and her staff would not even acknowledge military personnel at the White House unless a camera was on them, she had/has a total lack of respect for the military.

2

Michaela,

Canada 23/12/2007 04:29:30
Hillary Clinton does not have a 'hearty laugh' ... she cackles.
3

enmuffins,

Novato California 23/12/2007 06:44:51
Ten years ago I would have endorsed Hillary but that was before Bill Clinton's run-ins with the media and her having to confront the issue on National TV. This must have been devastating for her. She appears much harder/colder since that time. I remember when SHE was the one trying to get Universal health care for the US. She spent 2 years traveling the country trying to sell the program to Americans. The bill never passed Congress and I think that this made her a more savvy politician - she now knows what she has to deal with.
On the other hand we have Ron Paul who doesn't pander to any party - though he's a Republican candidate. He Raised more money - on the internet - in the last quarter than any of the other candidates. He just might win the nomination with Dems and Republicans voting for him.
Peg
4

Olivers_Army,

23/12/2007 08:35:25
Forget image crisis - and think questionable financial support.

Hilary stood up during Bill's term in office to take on the US 'Health Care' both the insurers and the drug manufacturers. She was outspoken, noisey and 'rattled a few cages'.

Now she is quiet on the subject and is one of the three largest recipients of 'donations' from the health care insurers and drug companies..... makes you wonder
5

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 09:58:49
She has to tow the party line Olivers Army! She is no longer permitted her own ideas and agenda's, its now all about the party and power, people and ethics are now secondary.
6

McMillar,

Fife 23/12/2007 10:00:38
There’s not much about her to like and it just seems too weird to go from 1st lady to president. Why? Unless hunger for power is just too much of a pull. I’d be delighted to see a female present of the US but probably not Hilary. Would have the same comment about Condi Rice if she was an option. Not good and better to have one come fwd with no baggage.
7

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 23/12/2007 10:24:40
The Clintons are closely connected with the Bushes. They don't poll well with progressives.

Progressive Democrats of America did a poll: Dennis Kucinich placed first, with 41% of the vote. Do you hear much of him over there? Probably not. We don't even hear much about him here, except through smaller, independent outlets, because so many of our main "news" outlets are controlled by right wing - (or at least right-leaning) people/corporations.

He's the fellow in the House of Representatives that sponsored a bill demanding pre-impeachment investigations of Dick Cheney.
8

Lord Darnley,

Drylaw 23/12/2007 12:09:52
So long as she does not sing,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfZ_gXCHaMw
9

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23/12/2007 13:13:14
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23/12/2007 13:24:59
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Maury D,

Laguna Hills 23/12/2007 15:19:06
The thought of two Clintons back in the White House for another term is absolutely revolting. If Hillary can't manage Bill, how can she manage the country, particularly with no executive management experience or record of achievement?
12

JG,

Fife 23/12/2007 15:58:57
At least Hillary has a brain - and one that actually works properly. And she can string a sentence together, probably knows the meaning of lots of big words and would know where a country she might have to visit is before checking it out on a map before she left. I don't think the Americans are sophisticated enough to vote for a woman yet - I'm sure I read somewhere recently that the US rates about 17th in the world for male/female government representatives in power - one place above Iran!!!!
13

Bill S.,

Sanity 23/12/2007 16:03:08
If the U.S. elects either a Democrat or a Republican (other than Ron Paul) The decline of U.S. economy will accelerate. The Fed is thinking again of lowering interest rates thereby creating money out of thin air which will benefit bankers disproportionally. We're going to disproportionally aid bankers by interfering in the sub-prime mortgage mess. U.S. and Europe are pumping "new" money into the banks. When will the people realize that government is the antithesis to freedom? Nothing that has been done by the government in the U.S. has ever been as effective as anything done by the private sector in the U.S. Oops, I'm wrong. No one can spend someone else's money as quickly as government! Right now in the U.S. we're spending money that will be earned 3 generations from now. Who cares! I have to find a Wii for Christmas! (Yes, that was fairly dripping with sarcasm) Electing Ron Paul and returning to the gold standard would go far to restoring some sanity to a county in deep trouble.
14

Bill S.,

Sanity 23/12/2007 16:12:51
JG in Fife - AAaarrggghhh! The problem isn't which gender! Your sentence - I'm sure I read somewhere recently that the US rates about 17th in the world for male/female government representatives in power - one place above Iran!!!! - says it all! People in the government that have power! Gender has nothing to do with it. Government power is the problem. Would it make a difference if all the bridges, roads, schools etc. that were named for Robert Byrd were named for a woman? No, the money still would have been more efficiently used by the privae sector as long as the government was not allowed to play in the economy by favoring one company or industry over another. I live in Michigan and our state is living proof that a government subsidized industry is not good for the people. It is only good for the rich.
15

Hickory,

US 23/12/2007 16:31:36
I noticed most of the postings about Hillary are coming from the States. Don't ye think there is a reason for this. Maybe, just maybe the States don't like the wicked witch of the west. Aye Jimmy, pour me another dram. And oh please, don't ask that witch to laugh again. More of that and I will be on me bum from too many drams. UUUGGHH, nasty politics.
16

JG,

Fife 23/12/2007 17:22:55
#16 Bill
You are absolutely right - gender should have nothing to do with a person's competency (or otherwise) for a particular job. I'm not wild about being governed to death myself - I think we have far too many politicians who therefor have little meaningful work to do and consequently justify their existence by over-legislating. However, we DO need someone to be in charge of our respective countries and if Hillary was the best person for the job, then why not let it be her (clearly you have a better grasp of your own political situation than I do, so I wouldn't try to tell you who you should vote for) - she's got to have more sense than the last incumbent!! And reading your contribution again - you surely can't be suggesting that the leader of the US should be a top company executive?
17

Pelon,

About 850 miles from Iowa, & 2 generations from Sc 23/12/2007 17:39:34
Hillary has baggage... "The Bill", but, other than for Bill Richardson, she is the only Democrat with White House experience. We need someone ready to tackle the demands of the office. We don't need to cook a president for a hundred days, and then see what we get! Whether it is Hillary, or Bill, or even Barrack, we know what we'll get. The question of "nicety" is low-level static. We don't need smiles that hide barbarism (or oafism, as they case may currently be), we need realism, empathy, and honesty. It is so bad we're ready to elect anyone walking up to the lectern without a "stamp of approval" earned by any old school recipe, or simply a pulse! Clinton, Richardson, and Obama are minority candidates, yes, but the majority speaks when these candidacys are serious contenders, wouldn't you say?
As for Bill, we don't need him distracting Hillary whether she is the candidate, or the president, and many are uncertain how she will deal with the issue. Maybe it would become easier once she's elected. Whatever, it would be an executive privelege shutting him up, that I'm sure she'd revel in.
18

,

23/12/2007 17:45:43
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23/12/2007 17:53:19
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Reckless,

Fife 23/12/2007 17:59:41
Ron Paul is the only man who can beat this wicked witch in the fight to become the next US president.

If Hillary wins, then the world is doomed. Sodom & Gomorrah all over again.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
21

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23/12/2007 18:02:50
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23/12/2007 18:13:19
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23

Reckless,

Fife 23/12/2007 18:20:52
Rant not quite over. You establishment Americans may think you're free, but you're kidding yourselves.

The North Amercan Union is very real and it will kill the United States. Unlike the EU, the NAU is being fast tracked. Become informed before it's too late.

Globalists such as Brown, Bush, Clinton et al have already sold their souls for 30 pcs of silver, while the reat of us use worthless fiat money.
24

US Cavalry,

Virgina, USA 23/12/2007 19:52:15
.
25

US Cavalry,

VIRGINA, USA 23/12/2007 19:53:33
No. 12
(FOX NEWS is about the only balanced network, and then you have talk radio which dumb liberals might think is news.)
You must get a different Fox News than we get here in the colonies. They are the most one sided station on the air. Now if you are pro bush and love the Iraq fiasco. That that would be one's station of choice.
26

okanaganguy,

kelowna, b.c. canada 23/12/2007 19:55:11
Ultimately, the voters in the U.S. will elect the next President. I predict that Hillary will be the next U.S. president. I don't see Bill as a hinderance to her being elected. He is one of the most sought after speakers in many countries around the world. I believe that for the most part, Bill Clinton is well liked in the U.S. I also predict that Ron Paul will be down at the bottom of the pile when the primaries are finished. I see Obama finishing a close second to Hillary.Many of us in Canada take a great interest in U.S. politics. But, it will be the American voter who will decide, regards
27

mollysg,

New York 23/12/2007 19:59:21
Ron Paul isn't even on the radar so get over it.

Yap all you want about Hillary's "lack of experience", as a New Yorker I can say that she is about a million times better as our senator than her pathetic predecessor, Al "Pothole" D'Amato. She fought like hell to hold Bush's balls to the fire when he promised us 90 billion in emergency aid after 9/11 and then tried to renege. She worked hard & she got us the money.
28

Reckless,

Fife 23/12/2007 20:21:24
Ron Paul is dominating the radar. The establishment won't acknowledge it though. Please don't vote for that son of a mob boss and cross dresser. He's as evil as the rest of them.

Ron Paul wins a blind Zogby poll.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/ron_paul_zogby_poll_wins_nationwide.htm
29

Livingstone,

23/12/2007 20:33:52
#27

Hillary winning must be wishful thinking on your part, not sure why you living in a neighbouring country would want an inexperienced person without any executive experience as the President of the USA, do you wish ill on the US?

According to most polls on "which candidate would you vote against" she is #1.
30

JG,

Fife 23/12/2007 21:43:17
#22 Mahmud
Read some of the previous topic pages. Many of the women contributers have said they wouldn't vote for a woman because that's not their place - they should be at home cooking etc.. Honest! I'm not making it up. By the way, there are currently 74 women in congress and 16 female senators. Not a great percentage of the whole, eh? 17% in one place, 16% in the other.
31

Livingstone,

23/12/2007 22:21:34
#22 JG

I would blame that on the qualified woman that are choosing not to run for office, not on the voters. The US has elected quite a few officials we can poke fun at like Hillary & Cynthia McKinney. They need strong qualified women to choose from which they have an abundance of that rarely run for office.
32

okanaganguy,

kelownw,b.c. canada 23/12/2007 22:31:11
#30. No, i don't wish any ill will to the U.S. What candidate has any executive experience. Oh Yeah, Hillary did spend 8 years in the White House as First Lady. When the election is over Livingstone, Hillary WILL be in the White House {in my opinion} and it is only my opinion. regards
33

Liddy,

Kansas 23/12/2007 22:45:26
It seems to me that most of the negative posts about Hilary are based on shallow and hipocritical things. She gets bashed because Bill was unfaithful and she stayed with him. Is it wrong to be faithful to wedding vows, For Better or Worse and to forgive? She is extremely intelligent and has demonstrated leadership since her earliest years. She did go thro formative years in our turbulent years when many idealistic young Americans were involved in various protests and was seen on the Yale campus as a mediator and peace keeper. She has strong values and beliefs and expresses them and fights for them. Most candidates are afraid to say they like a good steak becuase it will upset Peta or vegans. I think she would make a wonderful president.
34

scoobie,

ILANNOYYISA 24/12/2007 00:01:10
HAVE YOU SEEN THE COMMENT BY SCUNNERED ON theicarusproject.net MALLOY COULD NOT TAKE THE HEAT AN "A" TYPICAL EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL LYING LIBERAL CHRISTIAN. BY THE WAY HELEN YOU ARE "A" TYPICAL ALSO AND NOT JUST CHRISTIAN DOGMA.
35

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 24/12/2007 02:57:52
Everyone is looking for the charismatic candidate and it appears that Hillary does not have charisma. If none of the candidates has charisma, then what is the next criterion? The media gets up so close to any/all candidates that it simply scrutinizes them to death and no candidate can please everybody. We've all become very critical. Easy to do when you're not the one in the hot seat.
36

,

24/12/2007 03:49:00
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37

BMCG,

24/12/2007 04:37:47
# 30 – as you are likely aware, opinions are seldom based on fact. What you ascribe as wishful thinking to # 27 appears to contradict your desired outcome (err, wishful thinking). But then again it is just my opinion.
38

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 24/12/2007 06:26:03
11 Mahmud

Left-wing extremist? I guess that's what neocons call those of us who believe in radical documents like the Constitution of the United States - and those of us who believe that no one who calls it "a God-damned piece of paper" should occupy the White House.

Of course, even Nixon would be considered too far left for today's Republican party.

The vast majority of the mainstream press lean right, except those that lean far right. That left lean is a propaganda ploy to "explain" the very few times they show the guts to question the lunatic, war-mongering liars in the White House. If the press were impartial, (never mind left-leaning), they would have exposed the Bush-Cheney lies about WMD in Iraq. Instead there would be a word almost in passing, then right-wing loonies would write in to their corporate sponsors, threatening boycotts, etc., and the story would disappear. So it always goes. Cover up for the Republicans, and damn the truth.

How many people do you think really show up for those protest marches? A lot more than you can tell by the few photos - usually of the most colorful attendees - that are published.

How much have you heard about the people's demad for Cheney's impeachment investigations? Wexler's site was stampeded, (so to speak). Pelosi and Reid are inundated with calls, letters, and emails. Ever heard reports on that on Faux News?
39

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 24/12/2007 06:42:01
P.S. Mahmud

ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and most other national outlets censored the news leading up to the Iraq invasion. But FOX? Fox is a major propaganda outlet for the neocons. None of them are trustworthy. For fair and balanced, in the US, probably number one is The Christian Science Monitor. (Seriously.)

Talk radio: don't listen to it. It's overrun with hysterical neocons, anyway. I occasionally tune in to our local "news" station to get the weather report, less often, the traffic report. My radio is pre-set to WFMT, which plays a lot of classical music, though I much prefer my record and CD collection.

40

Dáithí,

San Jose 24/12/2007 16:41:04
#40 - Alex

Alex - rubbish! Not only did the news agencies you list post everything they could leading up to the war, they even generated their own anti-Bush falsehoods'.

CBS? Dan Rather, their LEAD newsman and personality, was FIRED for his involvement with a clearly fabricated anti-Bush story when the document was shown to have 'superscript', something that didn't even exist when the supposed document was created - because they made it up a week before airing the 'scathing report'!!

Fox News gets the CommSoc wrath because Bill O'Riley, their conservative commentator, routinely gets the highest ratings across the board - and they also present an opinion that apparently you don't agree with.

I always get a laugh out of you guys that scream 'freedom of speech' then condemn anyone that presents speech that you disagree with.

No, stick to your weather reports and classical music. Leave the 'News' to those of us tolerent of differenting opinions.
41

,

24/12/2007 17:24:49
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42

Dáithí,

San Jose 24/12/2007 18:10:48
#42 - 'Stretch'

I stand corrected. I should have pointed that out. He is not 'their' commentator, he is a commentator on their network.

Good point on the rest of your comments.
43

Dáithí,

San Jose 24/12/2007 18:16:31
#39 - Chicago

> "The vast majority of the mainstream press lean right, except those that lean far right."

Riigggght - that's why that zany rightist, Dan Rather, fabricated 'evidence' against Bush by running a story based on a past document - with superscript! Which, of course, didn't even exist at the time the 'document' was proported to have been typed! What a BUFFOON!

The mainstream media leans left for three solid reasons, all of which seem to excape you leftists.

They only appear to be to the 'right' of you because you are so far to the 'left' - it's mostly a matter of perspective.
44

skmf12,

san francisco ca usa 24/12/2007 18:33:30
i would like to tell you that all americans dont hate hillary clinton, infact only in iowa and south carolina, where edwards and obama have concentrated all their time and money, is there any kind of a race.
everywhere else hillary leads by an astounding number.

the left and the independants, are extremely feral, this election, and we understand their desire to not have a republican in office, nonetheless, they flood the blogs and newspapers pushing their agenda and candidate in such a lunatic fervor, that it is disappointing that it has come to this...

i dont think people understand the full impact of 9/11 on us. the muslims may have radicals, but now we have the left, the right and the independants going off the deep end. many of these groups have become unsavory. with the internet, people who are socially inactive, have a voice now, and have joined the fringe group, and made hillary the object of their hate.

all well and good, we have to live with it. but i must tell you that the republicans have been the formost movers and shakers of the fringe movement. you dont think that carl rove quit his plush job for no reason do you? they are mischief makers, they want the white house again, and they are wickedly clever.

politically savy people understand the real game being played.
i would like to say one other thing, as far as bill clinton goes, we just dont care who he was sleeping with, really! not our business, stuff happens as they say. to be honest, its good to know he's strait, he could be like all the closet republicans, picking up men and little boys in bathrooms.
thank you for your time.
45

skmf12,

24/12/2007 18:58:35
i'm sorry, may i say one other thing?
you know i hear so much about hillary and other democrats voting yes on the war after 9/11, and i want to give some on the other continent another perspective.

i work for united airlines, and a couple of our planes were used in 9/11, and it hurt us terribly, it still does today.
there was a moment you may remember from the photos of that time. all the republicans and all the democratic leaders were standing on the steps of the capitol, singing the national anthem. at that moment any intelligent democrat could see what was about to happen. the republicans used 9/11 to portray anyone who did not support the united states and george w bush as unpatriotic, and weak on security, and security was a big deal at this point.

the democrats in office were really a minority, and they were hurting too, and they didnt want to make a mistake, and they couldnt fight the tide. they were prisoners of circumstance. so if they voted yes on the war, with provisions to first use other methods, i dont think they had a prayer to do anything else. the republicans were on a witch hunt for the democrats in congress at that time. they did what they had to.

for the others whos say they voted no, good for them! good for them that they werent in congress then and made to eat dirt, must have been nice.
46

57Nomad,

california 24/12/2007 18:58:46
#13 JG

JG said:

"I don't think the Americans are sophisticated enough to vote for a woman yet"

This is a comment from a European. Europe the land of Absolute Monarchy, the land of the Tsar, Kaiser Bill, Lenin, Adolph Hitler, Communism, Stalin, Fascism, two World Wars in twenty years. Oh yeah, these are some very sophisticated folks. These are the people who sophisticated the entire world in to mammoth conflagrations that killed a hundred million people. This is the land of the Balkans, where the same old 'grab the land and kill all the people there' theme that has been the hallmark of European sophisticates down the ages is still being played in the 21st Century.

Americans have been governing themselves for 400 years. No people in the history of the planet have ever been as successful as us. So, twinkle toes, rant on. It's very entertaining. Like a cripple explaining to Carl Lewis where is sprinting technique is flawed.
47

Livingstone,

24/12/2007 19:30:58
#47

No offense taken.
48

57Nomad,

california 25/12/2007 11:14:39
# 48 Livingstone

Thanks, very nice! Actually, I admire Europe and the Europeans, the Brits in particular. What I don't care for is the condescending attitude and the smug notion that as a group they are superior culturally and intellectually. So, whenever someone like JG mouths off, I like to return fire with vigor just to keep them on their toes and to squelch any idea that we are going to turn the other cheek to that kind of nonsense.

Americans have been a self-governing people since 1620. The only Europeans that would even dream of such a thing at that time were the English. And even though they were well on the way to curbing absolutism they still had a rigid class system and the Royals and nobility wielded power by inherited privilege. Look at David Hume's introduction to the Inquiry and you will see that he cautions that his work should not be taken as license for the yokels to develop "a saucy attitude toward their betters." I'm quoting from memory here but that is the sentiment expressed. This kind of thinking never caught on in America and its explicit rejection is entertainingly shown in Hawthorne's 'My Kinsman, Major Molineux.'
49

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 25/12/2007 16:16:10
#57Nomad

"...and nobility wielded power by inherited privilege."

Oh, and slavery wasn't power wielded by privilege?
50

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25/12/2007 19:11:20
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57Nomad,

california 25/12/2007 19:43:39
#50 TOTS

hilariously TOTS said:

"...and nobility wielded power by inherited privilege."
Oh, and slavery wasn't power wielded by privilege?"

This bit of wisdom, ladies and gents came from a poster in, are you ready for this, South Africa. This is equivalent of Adolph Hitler standing on a street corner handing out pamphlets decrying religious intolerance. Sack cloth and ashes for you, sport.

Secondly, the poster deliberately misquoted the post he responded to. In my post, I pointed out an historical fact, 'inherited privilege.' TOTS left out the word, 'inherited.' There is a difference between the two and this clown knows it. Nice try, Comrade Apartheid. Stuff it.

52

Livingstone,

25/12/2007 21:23:26
49 57Nomad

I can understand the antagonism on both sides. I’m a recently retired Jock who attended one of your central US universities in the early 80’s. I have spent more time in my career on US and Canadian (BATUS) bases than on British soil.
53

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 26/12/2007 03:28:12
#49 57Nomad


Hmmm... Very touchy about the slavery issue aren't you?

I'll bet you hire illegal Mexicans to clean your pool, don't you?

And on the privilege bit, I suppose it is the American dream. i.e. It's OK to BUY privilege (including slaves) but not OK to inherit it!
54

57Nomad,

california 26/12/2007 05:29:05
TOTS #54

TOTS said:

"Hmmm... Very touchy about the slavery issue aren't you?"

Really? No, I'm not. I would like you to point out which part of my post gave you such a silly idea. If you can't, then how about explaining why you said it.

Tots, let me do you a favor. When positing an argument of any kind care must be taken to avoid what are know as logical fallacies. An argument constructed without logical fallacies is called cogent. Those that include them are called absurd.

Among these fallacies is 'equivocation.' Equivocation is is the misleading use of a word with more than one meaning. Privilege is such a word. Privilege can be construed simply as a bounty or grace of some kind. It can also be construed, as in the case of inherited privilege, as the unrestrained rights of nobles and royals.

And here, my dim friend, is where you stumble. They are not the same thing at all yet you use them as if they were. There are no nobles nor any royals in the US and there never have been, consequently there cannot be inherited privilege. You have equivocated, you see, this renders your statement absurd. Try to do better. You are embarrassing yourself.





55

Dáithí,

San Jose 26/12/2007 05:37:01
#54 - Tatties

Uh, slaves were freed over 150 years ago by a Republican president, the first Republican president, actually. This ended the salve trade that the British originally brought to us and profited from by so much.

And no, our pools are self-cleaning with the little vacuum-and-hose thing that we all have.

Mexicans own the house next door with their own pool and hot-tub. In fact, they came over last night and we drank marguertias together on a very nice, clear night.

I understand that you South Africans are leaving the country, please don't bring your pre-conceptions about Hispanics and Blacks with you, please.

In fact, don't bother coming here at all.

Thanks.

56

57Nomad,

california 26/12/2007 06:05:43
What #56 said.
57

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 26/12/2007 15:30:08
#56 Daithi

That little "vacuum and hose thing" that you use to clean your pool was invented in South Africa by Dieter Kallenbach so I guess you do enjoy some of South Africa's success after all.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5014382-description.html

It is a pity 57 Nomad hasn't got one so he has to use illegal Mexicans!

From his argument, you will note that there is a cogent difference between "Mexicans' and "illegal Mexicans"

Finally, by mention slavery, I was responding to 57Nomad's ridiculous suggestion in Post #49 that "...this kind of thinking never caught on in America" where he was referring to the concept that one section of society could consider themselves "better" than another.

58

Dáithí,

San Jose 26/12/2007 16:17:28
#56 - TOTS

> "That little "vacuum and hose thing" that you use to clean your pool was invented in South Africa by Dieter Kallenbach so I guess you do enjoy some of South Africa's success after all."

Yep. Next time I think of someone sucking the scum out of my pool, I'll think of you.

59

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 27/12/2007 01:54:41
41 & 44 Daithi

Do you believe the lies you write?

Strange that you should want to bring up Dan Rather. Rather did a story that was unflattering to Bush. He did not fabricate anything. The fact that it was corroborated by several sources may have made him less skeptical about the authenticity of the letter (which is often left to staff researchers to verify). The facts of the story have been verified, by more than one source. The fact that Rather was fired illustrates the hold that the right have on the press. The noise machine went into overdrive, burying the *true* story. The fact that Rather was fired proves the stranglehold the right have on the media. What reporter has been fired for passing one the White House's lies?

I have no problem with differing opinion. I was not even speaking of opinion, but of news, which is supposed to be fact, not opinion.

Bill O'Reilly? Shouting, hate-spewing liar. A neocon, not a conservative. The two ideologies are very different. The Republican party is not conservative, it is neoconservative. What O'Reilly offers is only opinion, not news. And, when it comes to tolerance of differing opinions, O'Reilly is the epitome of the neocon: shout, call names, hang up, slander, threaten. Mr 'We know who you are and we're coming to get you.' Very tolerant.

When you go laughing at those who insist they want freedom of the press, but don't like differing opinions, I hope you're including O'Reilly; but it sure as hell doesn't describe me. I want my news to be factual, not opinion - anybody's opinion. Some of us want to be informed, and to formulate our own opinions.

'CommSoc'? Communist-Socialist? (Are you still fighting that old war?) Unfounded name-calling. They disagree with you, so they must be communists. Typical neocon ploy.

The other one you already demonstrated: accuse your opponent of having your own faults. Neocon 'tolerance' - what a joke!
60

American,

USA 27/12/2007 03:18:51
#60-alec-Wow! It's pretty sad that you believe what you write!
61

American,

USA 27/12/2007 03:26:50
#7-McMillar-You got that right-hunger for power!! Personally, I dont care if the next pres is male or female, it is actually their views I care about. If hillary and huckabee are our only two real choices come pres. election day, we're totally screwed!!
62

American,

USA 27/12/2007 03:42:06
#46-skmf12-Do you not recall billary & gore said the same thing (as bush) about saddam and iraq when they were in office? Do you not remember the vote to oust saddam during billarys term? The dems voted to oust him, even ted kennedy (the one who doesnt know cars cant float) claimed saddam a threat to the US. I dont consider anyone who voted against the war unpatriotic-but I do consider any negative comments against our troops unpatriotic & a disgrace; comments from dems like john kerry, jack murtha, dick durbin & a few other democrats. BTW-As someone who was personally affected due to the fact that a very young relative of mine was "murdered" from the events of that dreadful day-I'm glad we're not just sitting back & talking about taking action while other attacks are being carried out-as was done in the clinton era. Remarkable how during the clinton era iraq was reported as having involvement in the 1st WTC bombing (yassin, or yasin, sound familiar). He went back home to iraq when we released him (after the first wtc bombing).
63

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 27/12/2007 04:04:29
61 "American"

Yep - another right-winger who likes vague blanket statements.
64

Livingstone,

27/12/2007 13:25:22
60 Alec in Chicago

I just searched “Dan Rather-Bush-AND Lied” and you are wrong. Every credible article indicates Dan Rather and his team fabricated papers based on hearsay of 40 years ago. What kind of journalists knowingly accepts fabricated documents that were produced on modern day computers?

What was the purpose of the Dan rather attack in the first place? To attack a man for going thru the rigors of flight school and earning his wings?

I’ve spent over 20 years in the RE so we make fun of the RAF and other Air Forces but a reporter like Dan Rather has no business attacking anyone in any service.
65

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/12/2007 17:25:58
#60 - Chicago

>"Strange that you should want to bring up Dan Rather. Rather did a story that was unflattering to Bush. He did not fabricate anything..."

Hahahah! He presented a document and claimed it was from 40 years ago - but it had superscript! What a DORK!

When it was pointed out that NO typewriters were capable of CREATING such a document (duhhh...) it was exposed as a fraud, Rather was exposed as a phony and FIRED as the anchor of CBS.

The man was expsoed as a liar and fired - but to guys like you, a lie is OK if it says what you want to hear.
66

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/12/2007 17:32:11
#60 - Chicago

>"What O'Reilly offers is only opinion, not news..."

Of course! Nobody ever stated it was any different. You guys just hate Fox because they allow a commentator that you don't approve of.

Even worse, he is constantly the top-rated commentator on TV in the US.

You guys proclaim your rights to 'free speech' then condem anyone that says something you disagree with.
67

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/12/2007 17:43:30
#60 - Alec in Chicago

"When you go laughing at those who insist they want freedom of the press...

You're building a 'Straw Man' here Alec, we're not 'laughing at those who insist they want freedom of the press' - we're defending it. You're apparently the one that's upset that it applies to everyone, O'Reilly included.

"but don't like differing opinions, I hope you're including O'Reilly; but it sure as hell doesn't describe me."

Really? Than what is this 'rant' all about?

- You're praising Rather (a proven and documented liar as well as an embarrassment to professional journalists) who, as a reporter, is SUPPOSED to deal in FACTS;

- and condemning O'Reilly who is clearly an opinionated commentator, and is supposed to deal in OPINION.

You're comparing the two, they are in different areas of the media and have different job descriptions, fill different functions and privode different perspectives.

One is paid to report the news, the other is paid to comment on it.
68

57Nomad,

california 27/12/2007 19:32:27
#58 TOTS

Tots said, 1:

"It is a pity 57 Nomad hasn't got one so he has to use illegal Mexicans!
From his argument, you will note that there is a cogent difference between "Mexicans' and "illegal Mexicans"

TOTS, gotta love you. You say that I use Mexicans to clean my pool. You have made this up, haven't you? You are trying, however lamely to launch an ad hominem attack on me by lying. At first I thought no one could be that stupid. Then I reread your posts and discovered that it is possible.

Then you say, "you will note that there is a cogent difference between "Mexicans' and "illegal Mexicans." The term "a cogent difference" is a nonsense phrase. It illustrates your phenomenal ignorance.I have never said a word about Mexico or Mexicans. The only person who has is you. Do you understand that you are now engaged in a public argument with yourself?

Not to nitpick here, my friend, but you have, without any prompting from anybody, entered into your discourse the words, "illegal Mexicans." You really need to think these things through. There are not, and can never be, "illegal Mexicans." The words 'legal' and 'illegal' cannot be applied to human beings only to their actions. Why didn't you know that?

You are batting zero, pal. Do you expect to convince anyone of anything using transparent lies as your starting point. At first I found you mildly amusing, but you have grown tedious. This is an international forum and those who read it expect a certain level of competence regardless of their position. You are a waste of space.
69

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 27/12/2007 20:40:37
65 Livingstone

Define 'credible argument.'

I saw former Texas governor Bill Clements on television; he stated that he had given Bush special treatment, pulled strings to get him in the Guard. No reporter, no 'misquotes' - straight from Clements' mouth.

Still waiting for those records that supposedly show he wasn't AWOL. They can find my father's military records - but then he was never AWOL, (and that's from battle, not a cushy spot in the Guard).

Everyone here notes your use of the word 'attack.' It is very telling. The piece was an expose; it's what reporters are supposed to do. What the right did to Gore and Kerry (not by any stretch my favorite anything) was personal attack.

The right shuts down everything they don't like: smear the reporter, divert everyone's attention. They did it with a story on Bush's cocaine use. (Who else's record of cocaine use gets expunged for a little community service?)

AWOL, DUI, cocaine use - it all gets buried under hysterical attacks on the reporters.

Rather was fired, not because his story was false, not even because a letter was alleged to have been forged, but because he was hated by the Bush family. They'd been holding a grudge against him for years, and suddenly they had the noise machine behind them. Stories on Bush's AWOL status dried up, just as did stories on his cocaine use. Articles were pulled. Books were pulled. Message received. Everyobody who listens to sources outside the owned MSM knows it. You only make yourself look foolish when you try to deny it.
70

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/12/2007 22:24:25
#70 - Alec

>"Rather was fired, not because his story was false, not even because a letter was alleged to have been forged, but because he was hated by the Bush family."

Nope. Just about every reporter hates and is hated by the Bush family, big deal. Read the NY Times.

He was fired because his job is to report facts, not make them up.

But believing that is a lot less fun for you Alec, so you go with the consipracy theory.
71

Livingstone,

27/12/2007 23:21:16
Alec in your own little world

I can not speak for a Texas Governor of 40 years ago or his agenda if he has one. My point was that I take issue with any reporter who never served his country in uniform knowingly using false information to discredit another mans military service.

If a candidate was basing his qualifications on military service and had the documents been true then your reporter could have used the information without disgracing himself.

Goodnight
72

Dáithí,

San Jose 28/12/2007 00:31:35
#60 - Alec

>"'CommSoc'? Communist-Socialist? (Are you still fighting that old war?) Unfounded name-calling. They disagree with you, so they must be communists. Typical neocon ploy."

Typical 'neocon' ploy? Hahaha!

My, I must have annoyed you - so much that you do exactly you complain about me doing, labeling you.

No Alec, I use it to demonstrate how the pro-Saddam crowd can dish-it-out but can't take it. They have a label for everyone else, but put a label on them and they're really annoyed.

You are serving as a splendid example of this hypocracy.
73

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 28/12/2007 00:40:12
Livingstone

Dan Rather, (not my favorite reporter), served his country as a reporter - and, unlike the chickenhawk Bush, spent a lot of time in Vietnam.

Everything in the documents was true. That he knowingly used false information is untrue. As everything in the letter was corroborated, (how many times does that need to be said?), the letter itself was insignificant to the story. Rather was fired because of the neocon hysteria. Just look at the number of tirades against him at that time.

Bush used influence to avoid going to Vietnam, and he was AWOL, and he missed a physical. It is Bush who cannot produce documents or witnesses to back up his story.

Of course, governor Clements must 'have an agenda' - it's not possible that someone would tell the truth for the sake of telling the truth. What twisted minds you neocons have.

You don't like the truth, so you try to denigrate those who tell it. Don't think the readers here aren't capable of recognizing that old dodge.
74

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 28/12/2007 00:54:28
73 Daithi

It is a neocon ploy. Neocons use it all the time. I labelled the ploy, but then you Bush-backers (based on your own words) are not generally very good at making distinctions. Yes, Daithi, you ally yourself with the neocons and the Bush-backers - you even wrote 'we.' But to draw Communist and Socialist out of thin air is something else again.

Anyone reading your lies and non sequiturs posing as responses to my post would be surprised to find what I actually said.

Fox does not report the news. Fox. Not O'Reilly. Let me spell this out for you: O'Reilly is not a reporter, and therefore O'Reilly is not a factor in my comment. You're the one who claimed I hate Fox because of O'Reilly. I detest the MSM - note that was my first reference - for not giving us news, but only White House propaganda. I said I wanted more and real news, and that I don't listen to talk radio - not right-wingers, not neocons, not O'Reilly, but talk radio as a whole - and you claimed that I am against freedom of the press.

You think people take you seriously, when you write things like that? Do you think, for that matter, that anyone believes you are in favor of freedom of the press, particularly when you respond that way. Who is it that goes berserk at differing opinions?

Your responses are utterly lacking in insight or sophistication. I'll let your twisting of my statements speak for itself. (Yes, I called you a liar.)
75

Dáithí,

San Jose 28/12/2007 01:17:08
#75 - Alec

>"Fox does not report the news. Fox. Not O'Reilly."

As I said earlier, you've confused the two. Fox is a news station, they report the news. Your statement that "Fox does not report the news" is wrong.

Fox may not report the news in the way that you feel they should, but they DO report the news. You guys proclaim 'freedom of the press, freedom of speech - then if someone doesn't state things the way you feel they shoud, you proclaim that 'Fox doesn't report the news'.

O'Reilly is a commentator. His job is to state his opinion. There is a big difference - which is apparently is lost on you so I'll quit trying to explain the difference.


You might not approve of, or agree
76

Dáithí,

San Jose 28/12/2007 01:24:04
#75 - Alec (continued)

You might not approve of, or agree with them but it's not necessary that you do.

>"It is a neocon ploy. Neocons use it all the time."

Back to the labels that you were complaining about others using when they felt that they applied to you, I see. Yeah, when you use them you're not referring to us, but when we use them we're referring to you.

>"You're the one who claimed I hate Fox because of O'Reilly"

Really? Your chance to 'put-up-or-shut-up', Alec. This should be post #77, show me an earlier post where I "claimed that I (you, Alec) hate Fox because of O'Reilly".

Thanks
77

,

28/12/2007 04:10:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 28/12/2007 04:35:20
#69 Nomad

The term "illegal", as it relates to the people you employ to clean your pool, refers to their residency status in the United States of America. "Illegals' or "illegal Mexicans" is a very common term as well you know!!!!

I can only assume that you employ them because you can pay them less than other people who have employment rights in law!
79

57Nomad,

california 28/12/2007 20:31:48
#79 TOTS

TOTS said:

"The term "illegal", as it relates to the people you employ to clean your pool, refers to their residency status in the United States of America. "Illegals' or "illegal Mexicans" is a very common term as well you know!!!!"

Let me give you the news, lunkhead. "Illegal Mexicans" is not a very common term, it isn't a kind of common term, its a term that is never used by anyone. Your knowledge of Southern Californian idioms is as void as your comments about my swimming pool. The flow of South
Africans fleeing their decaying country gives us all the pool cleaners and other menials that we need.

There is trouble brewing, however. While many people say things like, 'the south africans only take jobs that Mexicans don't want,' and the like some of our brethren from Mexico refer to them as "gringos de Africa." They resent the inroad these 'gringos de africa' are making into areas traditionally held by Mexicans. There's a storm coming in the janitorial, fast food restaurant, and lawn cutting fields.

I asked my pool man, Dino, if he had heard anything about it, he smiled wryly, pushing his blond hair out from behind his Oakleys. He explained that the cost of entry in to the pool maintenance field was very high, and that is wasn't a field that former field hands from San Pedro de los Burros were likely to be aspiring to.

He did say that his cousin, Chip, who had a sweet contract to cart manure away from the race track at Del Mar, had fired all of the Mexicans who were working there because he had found a more cost affective group of shovelers from, you guessed it, South Africa.
80

Dáithí,

San Jose 29/12/2007 00:43:45
#80 - 57Nomad

>"you guessed it, South Africa."

Actually, that would 'Baja Africa'. ;)
81

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 29/12/2007 03:40:49
#80 #81 That is better, guys, a sense of humour at last! That is what I thought these posts were supposed to be about rather than calling people names.

Sadly, there is a drift of skills from South Africa but it is at the doctor, architect, engineer level rather than the unskilled.

On the other hand there is a steady in-flow (albeit a smaller volume) of skilled people who usually come as expatriates but decide to take permanent residence and stay.

By the way, Nomad, is you Greek pool guy gay?
82

Dáithí,

San Jose 29/12/2007 16:39:44
#82 - TOTS

Thanks, Tots! ;)

> "Sadly, there is a drift of skills from South Africa but it is at the doctor, architect, engineer level rather than the unskilled."

Yes, a 'brain drain'. They are usually the first to leave - a bad sign for South Africa, unfortunately.
83

,

29/12/2007 19:53:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

Biker,

Ayr 29/12/2007 20:11:59
84 I would suggest the Hillary Clinton has more executive experience simply by virtue of her husbands ex job. Bear in mind she was involved to a high degree and level over Bill's tenure..
I think she would be a welcome change to the world political scene. (very sexy too)
85

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 29/12/2007 20:28:21
#83 Daithi..... Yes, a fantastic country with a doubtful future...... cry for Africa....

Lets exchange views on other posts...
86

Dáithí,

San Jose 30/12/2007 02:11:54
#85 - Biker

>"84 I would suggest the Hillary Clinton has more executive experience simply by virtue of her husbands ex job"

I think Monica benefited more from 'Bill Clinton Job' than Hillary ever did.
87

Biker,

Ayr 30/12/2007 20:09:36
87 Daithi. I think Monica was more of a feedback role.
88

Dáithí,

San Jose 31/12/2007 00:52:42
#88 - Biker

True, true.
89

Biker,

Ayr 01/01/2008 17:32:16
Happy New Year Friends.
90

Trade-wind,

USA 05/02/2008 20:16:38
#8 Alec

"Right wing controls so much of US media"
Are you daft? The liberal left controls media. They are almost all Democrats. And the other wing the movie industry is certainly leftist and the are the ones controling US social leanings through propaganda in all that we see read and hear. How long has it been since you have seen sunshine?

 

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