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Plan for GPs to open after hours in chaos



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Published Date: 24 February 2008
A "SIGNIFICANT" number of Scottish GPs will defy the Government and refuse to extend their opening hours, the leader of Scotland's family doctors revealed last night.
Dr Dean Marshall said the April 1 deadline for introducing the extended service would be missed and predicted that provision would be "patchy" when it eventually got off the ground.

Marshall, chairman of the British Medical Association's GP commit
tee, said many family medics believed it was a waste of NHS cash to offer extended opening hours.

Scotland on Sunday revealed earlier this month that doctors' leaders were preparing to accept a £16m scheme to open for an extra three hours a week on average.

The BMA subsequently approved the scheme, but there is growing evidence a large number of family doctors will choose to take a £6,000-per-medic pay cut rather than extend their hours.

A survey of GP practices, conducted last week by Scotland on Sunday, found only a tiny number were so far committed to extending their hours.

Marshall said: "GPs are extremely angry and a significant number of GPs have told me they won't do this. I have not met one who thinks this is a good idea. From a patient's point of view it will be patchy. The picture will be extremely varied and it will depend where you are registered whether you get this or not.

"Many GPs are preparing to take a pay cut because they think this is a waste of NHS resources and they would rather they were spent on something else. They are prepared to say no because they are not going to do something that's just a political soundbite and is not going to improve patient care in this country.

"The idea that you can open your surgery a bit longer sounds easy, but it's not. Patients can't get the same level of service as they would during the day. We are not allowed to keep these appointments for people who work so they will be filled up by the same people who can come during the day. It appears to me that the Scottish Government have not thought through the issues.

"I find it extremely difficult to see how it could be running in Scotland in April."

Last week, Scotland on Sunday contacted a representative sample of 100 surgeries across Scotland to establish whether individual practices were going to extend their opening hours.

Only three, one in Lothian, one in Glasgow and another in Shetland, said they would, although two of them already offer a voluntary extended hours service.

Two GP practices said that they would not, one in Tayside and another in Lanarkshire.

No decision had been taken at the remaining 95, despite the fact that just five weeks remain before the scheme is due to start. Doctors say the reason for the uncertainty is that many details of the deal remain unclear such as staffing and security for opening at night and weekends.

One doctor who has already decided not to go ahead with the move is Dr Mary O'Brien from the Stobswell Medical Centre, Dundee.

O'Brien said: "My opinion is that our practice can't do it, that's the bottom line. I can't force staff to work extra hours.

"We have looked at this and the only way we could do it would be for myself or my partner to work alone. Security-wise, that's just horrendous and it's totally impractical."

But patients' groups said the move was essential to reach those who found it difficult to get to their doctor during office hours.

A spokesman for the Federation of Small Businesses Scotland said: "An extension to GP's opening hours would allow small business owners and employees the option to access health care without affecting their working day.

Flexible GP opening hours could allow these people to access their rights to healthcare services without damaging their business and the important services that they provide to their own customers."

Margaret Watt, chairwoman of the Scotland Patients' Association, said: "We are calling for doctors to extend their opening hours so that they are available to see patients at their time of need. We are not asking them for the moon. I think they are trying to hold us to ransom for more money. Patients wouldn't be asking for appointments if they didn't need them."

Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon said: "I believe that our offer to GPs is a good one, for GPs and for patients.

"Discussions between GPs and the Scottish Government continue even now and there is no sense in which the Scottish Government has refused to negotiate with GPs. I met Dean Marshall on January 29, and my officials have had several discussions with him and the Scottish General Practitioners Committee about the issues he raises. These discussions have and will continue to inform the detail of our proposals."



The full article contains 819 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 February 2008 6:55 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Health of the NHS
 
1

Andrew Buchan,

Kincardineshire 24/02/2008 00:19:31
Let me have a think.

When I toddle down to the shops to buy my paper, what do I want - a free book of Weegie insults from this lot or a free DVD of a classic film from the Mail on Sunday.

And they wonder why no-one buys this paper anymore?
2

Aýrshire Scot™,

24/02/2008 00:33:24
I want the free book of weegie insults. I will be buying the paper first thing!
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/02/2008 00:53:30
This comes as..'Absolute' NO Surprise!

But It will come as..'another nail in the coffin' for our GP's

The Public WONT put up with it and Health care will take a new direction, as we know it!

Call it Tesco, call it what you want!
But 'Mark My Words', the day of the GP practice are numbered!
4

,

24/02/2008 02:02:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/02/2008 02:28:47
HarderTruth @#4,
I can see dear B, we are never gonna see..'eye to eye' on this one.

Have you heard the word..'Leeway',????

Well its all about this!

Whats wrong with a 12noon to 8pm shift,?
Whats wrong with 10am to 12noon Saturday shift,?
Whats wrong with shift work,?
We aint asking 24hour service,....Just,
''Leeway'

Our fire Service do it.!
Our Police Service do it!
Our Ambulance Service do it!
Our Wonderful Doctors, Nurses, Staff at our Hospitals do it!


Its..'Totally'!..all about..'Snobbery'
Nothing more Nothing Less!!


I am a,...'GP'!...I don't get my hands dirty!
And WONT!
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/02/2008 02:32:10
And I still want my £100k per year!

Well you better

Watch out..your nose will stay that way! (our Gp's that is)
7

lachlan,

24/02/2008 07:38:42
#4
i gree if this was a group of miners or train drivers they would be accused of 'holding the coutry ro ransome''get the troops in''thats what their what their payed for'
8

Aýrshire Scot™,

24/02/2008 08:16:35
#7 . . .Payed?
9

lachlan,

24/02/2008 10:02:15
#8
oops i was just up, only half awake
10

lachlan,

24/02/2008 10:03:12
paid!
11

jms,

24/02/2008 11:52:12
t
12

jms,

hull 24/02/2008 11:52:26
Healthcare outcomes in the UK lag behind those of other similar countries. In other words survival rates for cancer, heart disease etc are worse than most european countries.

Why don't we concentrate finite NHS resources on improving healthcare outcomes rather than wasting our money on appeasing a minority of people who wish to see their GP at 7.30pm.

You can't have your cake and eat it. There is only so much money to go round especially when we spend relatively little of our GDP on healthcare.
13

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 24/02/2008 12:03:43
#12 jms

If our healthcare outcomes are lagging behind most Euorpean countries the problem is unlikely to be whether GPs are unwilling to open their doors for a further 3 hours but are less competent technically and professionally. This is unlikely to be solved in the traditional Labour way by throwing money at the problem but rather investigating to see why this situation is the case. A reluctance to open for a further 3 hours displays an attitude problem which reflects a certain arrogance. Who's to say this hubris does not also extend to medical competence?

Why is it so awful to provide a service demanded by your clients? People do not become sick on a timetable and where they do work in a productive industry find it hard to take time off. GP'ing is really not a 9-5 service as they would have us believe, which is much the same as the other emergency services. With existing remuneration being exceptional, it beggars belief that GPs cannot be a little more flexible.

There may of course be another agenda which is to remove themselves from the NHS like dentists and so you may well find that the NHS GP surgery is going to be a thing of the past fairly soon.
14

lachlan,

24/02/2008 13:39:28
GPs like other service professionals have to realise that they do not produce wealth.they do have a big part to play of course in the health, wellbeing and smooth running of society.however they are dependent on the wealth produced by the society they live in for their earnings and therefore are obliged to provide a service that society demands.
15

Mack, ,

Tayside 24/02/2008 13:40:39
Instead of getting in to sniping competitions why don't we try and remember that most GPS don't have a problem with opening "extended hours" in theory and with adequate funding THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT HAVE GONE ABOUT IT. It is an "agree to a bad deal or get an even worse one imposed scenario" Oh! and we know the evidence shows this will only benefit a few patients with a medical "want" and harm access for patients with a medical "need", but we don't actually care becase this is what we promised the public.

It is time people in this society grew up and realised that public services are not an indivudually tailored service but developed to cater to those with most need within very limited budgets.

It is no surprise to me that the government(s) have upped their smear campaign on general practice as they were warned by GPs at the time of negotiating the new contract that the targets would be easily met and cost the government a lot but this was ignored as was the fact that GPs also warned that setting up and running OOHs services would also cost more than the government planned, but again this was ignored and GPs were not allowed to tender to run these services - the govt insisted that Health Boards did this.

This latest run of press stories is really about the fact that the government want their money back and don't care if they destroy doctor patient relationships in doing so and if they gain some control over the last independent voice patients have in the NHS (your GP) all the better.

Oh by the way I am not a GP nor do I work in a GP Practice just someone who has taken the time to look behind the headlines and try to get the facts. I could go on a lot more but feel my rant has lasted long enough.
Mack
16

skyeman,

skye 24/02/2008 13:50:25
you are all missing the point.
believe it or not, Dr's want whats best for the patient.
Unlike hospitals, GP practices are run like small businesses, with the GP's as the board along with the practice manager.

Extending practice hours means the business must change. The Dr agreeing to do it is easy.
But, what about the receptionist? treatment room nurse? nurse led asthma/diabetes clinics? pharmacist?

all of these people are not consulted about the changes and cannot be forced to change their practice if they dont want to.

The hospital labs will also not be avilable out of hours, nor specialist advice/ secretaries etc "on the phone" so the clinical service that GP's can offer will be poorer.

The opinion expressed that this is about the GP's "100k" is ridiculous. The european working time directive states that the hours wont change, so there will be a loss of daytime hours. Percieved salaries (which were given by the government on a result based award system in response to a recruitment crisis, are totally irrelevant in this argument)

this will make it harder for old people to see the Dr as there will be no patient transport services and in the winter many of them will not wan to go out in the dark. Using the extra 3 hours for home visits defeats the government directed objective of later opening hours.

its just gordon brown trying to save his neck. but it will definately be a worse service.
17

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 24/02/2008 14:34:15
The GPs held the NHS to ransom in 1948. They are still trying to do so!

They should work professionally and in a 24/7 society that is not 9 to 5. The new clinics the Government is pushng in England better suit modern lifestyles. If they are run by a healthcare company, so what!

GP surgeries are small businesses and they need to evolve to supply the services that people need. That is why, inspite of much cant about the death of the corner shop, we all choose to shop at Tesco or buy on line.
18

JT,

24/02/2008 15:01:40
#4 the staff at social services and post offices dont earn £100K a year! therefore they dont work the same hours. My gripe with doctors sticking to 9-5 is that I cant get an appointment for weeks unless I take time off work and until last year I was a hourly paid contractor, so a 10 min appt would cost me upto 2 hrs in pay! We are not asking for late hours just a little more flexibility so we can get to see the doc after 4pm.
19

Alberto.,

24/02/2008 16:42:47
If there is to be a worthwhile and meaningful ‘SERVICE’ at all, then surely the only one that can give full satisfaction, at least to the patient side of the facility, then it must be a 24/7 comprehensive system!

If it is to operate efficiently, then profitability cannot be considered, as it would seem inevitable it will not / can not be so. As a ‘Service’, hopefully for the good of everyone, it will obviously need many additional staff than employed currently - at all levels of those already employed in this sector of the NHS, and for them to become involved in a ‘Shift Working’ arrangement! It would seem that anything less will create ‘dis-satisfaction’ somewhere - from someone, probably many someone's (Bound To!) - and many times, especially if it is a make do and mend system!

A failed Political idea of a good functional working system, in many areas of ‘their’ expertise, is not unknown in many things, in this day and age, when left to the current incompetent Political ‘organisation’ we have today!

Shift work has to operate in many organisations, because of their very nature - whether for profit, or, as in this case, as a worthwhile ‘service’ function, and accordingly, will be essential for any success - no matter which system is introduced.

The cost, for a meaningful ‘service’ to be operated, will, no doubt, be overwhelmingly expensive, but must be financed from Government funding - regardless, and not relying on, as it seems, from the Governments ‘penny pinching’ idea of ‘giving a bit extra’ to those ‘in situ’ doing ‘ a bit’ extra - in order to get the Government out of a large Political hole.

If ‘operating’ the service -‘Government style’ - as mentioned, is based on a few extra hours a week - as it seems, and entirely relying on ‘current’ staffing arrangements, by just doing a ‘bit extra’, it is obviously going to create its own problems - visible even now!

It seems that in either system - part time or 24/7, there may be a lack of patie
20

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 24/02/2008 18:00:53
This is merely governmental drivel. Local practices have been opening during regular hours for.... oh, decades. Is there anyone here who actually has an all-consuming need to go to a GP's practice at 8pm? If you are ill enough to visit your GP, you will be ill enough to take time off work. Failing that, you can visit on Saturday morning.
21

rvlkaplan,

Glasgow 24/02/2008 18:01:34
Extra hours for GP surgeries? My GP in Shawlands doesn't even open on Friday afternoon!
22

madrab,

edinburgh 24/02/2008 18:07:55
Why don't all surgeries open from 12 to 8pm?

No extra hours involved.

23

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 24/02/2008 18:36:29
#23 madrab

Well that's a reasonable idea. However, it is not an extension of openening hours, as demanded by the government.
24

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 24/02/2008 18:42:30
As it would be illegal for the receptionist to work 11 hours a day, this proposal would require that surgeries employ an additional receptionist. etc, etc.
25

Alan B,

24/02/2008 18:47:58
#24 If the gp practice is quite large ie multiple gps it could be. As some gps could work 9-5 and others 12-8. They do not also have to do it Mon-Fri but could have a couple of late nights and/or Sat morning.

There are other possibilities of improvement aswell. The easiest would be to actually get seen at the time of your appointment. eg When u book the first appointment for 9am so that u can get to work without missing too much why is it u only get seen at 9:30am. (other than if there is an emergency).

It would also be good if u could attend a gp near your work rather than always have to go the one near ur residence. It is easier to take an hour off, than half a day.

The whole way the public sector is run always seems to be set up for those that do not work, or those in public sector jobs where u can take as much time of as u want.







26

Alan B,

24/02/2008 18:49:11
#25 many surgeries have multiple reception staff anyway.
27

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 24/02/2008 19:13:03
#26 Allan B

There is nothing stopping you from registering with more than one surgery.
28

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 24/02/2008 19:21:24
#26 Alan B

It does sound like you are holding a grudge. It also sounds like you want to spent more of your taxes so that GP surgeries can stay open for an extra 3 hours.
29

Alberto.,

24/02/2008 19:22:56
#20 Cont'd.....

Oops! Sorry for those who may be interested.

It seems that in either system - part time or 24/7, there may be a lack of patients at times - or overwhelmed with them at others, and is quite obviously the ‘unknown factor’, and only the passing of time can tell what such happenings may bring forth - as surely they will.

This ‘unknown factor’ may make it to be considered as a highly unsatisfactory service, by both sides - yet caused by things outside their control at almost anytime!

Should such a working system have its hope of success be reliant on someone just ‘doing a bit extra’ exist, or even be entertained in this matter at all, especially considering the extremely important subject matter this ‘Service’ entails - Medical Health Care?

Currently it sounds like a usual typical ‘shoddy’ Government arrangement, by ‘people who don’t really care - and certainly appears like they don’t know what’s going on’, or what is required, so long as it appears they are trying to be, so called, ‘helpful’ in the problem - possibly very much as a tactic to gain votes!

Yet, even at this stage, I would not be surprised if their view is ‘We shall not be carrying the can if it fails, the staff involved will be the ones to blame!’ (possibly already scripted and awaiting presentation as may be necessary!). It’s the way Politicians do things, as we see exercised quite frequently nowadays! Obviously they are still of the very strong self-acclaimed idea of ‘We can do no wrong’ - regardless of events brilliantly displayed to the contrary!

Or am I wrong?

30

Honeybee Mel,

Edinburgh 24/02/2008 19:26:01
#28 The Tin Man

I don't believe you can register with more than one practice - you must be resident within the practice's catchment area for a start! And what about your notes etc?
31

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 24/02/2008 19:27:33
#31 Honeybee

No, there is nothing stopping you.
32

Kitti Kat,

24/02/2008 19:39:12
and to think that Hillary and the democrats want to push a national health policy on us. There is no such thing as "free" care . The money has to come from somewhere--namely higher taxes. Government should stay the heck out of medicine. If someone can't afford medical insurance, by all means, the gov't. should help. However, those of us who can afford it should not be forced into a plan we don't want. Telling doctors how to run their paractices , hours and patient care smacks of too much "big brother". I pray we don't have a national health inflicted on us here. The good docs will go into other fields.
33

Honeybee Mel,

Edinburgh 24/02/2008 19:40:57
#32

You haven't answered the question.
34

Alan B,

24/02/2008 20:07:25
#32 It is my understanding u can only register in a 2nd practice if u are a temporary resident and then ur notes get sent there.

"It does sound like you are holding a grudge"
What is wanting to make going to a GP more accessible got to do with a grudge. Depending on ur work situation it would be good if u did not half to take half a day of work to go to the doctors. If u have to do it a few times it can be a right pain.

Personally i like the idea of walk in surgeries.



35

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 24/02/2008 20:11:05
#34

I am registered with GP's in Aberdeen and Edinburgh. It is hardly the most complicated procedure in the planet.
36

Alan B,

24/02/2008 20:24:52
#36 is that not as a temporary resident? i was told when i moved house that i would have to move gp as i no longer lived in the area. As i worked in the area where the original gp surgery was it would have been much more convenient to stay with the GP surgery.
37

PJPH,

24/02/2008 20:29:52
Sorry no 34 The Tin MAn. You will be registered with one practice as a permanent patient and at the other as a Temporary Resident (TR). TR lasts 3 months. If you have 2 permanent registration then congratulations you have defeated the governmemnts expensive NHS IT system!

BTW I am a GP who negotiated this new deal and Mack #15 is spot on
38

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 24/02/2008 20:33:29
I suggest that the GP's withdraw their services, if they feel the people are not satisfied with what they have, then come to Central Canada because we have a shortage of GP's and we will certainly appreciate you.
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
39

Alan B,

24/02/2008 20:45:53
#38 U say Mack #15 is spot on. He says "and we know the evidence shows this will only benefit a few patients with a medical "want" and harm access for patients with a medical "need""

I fail to understand why being open from say 9-5 is better than say 12-8 some days or something similar. How can u define "need" and "want"? When is it "want" if u have a medical issue. Is need only if u have a job where it is easy to take alot of time off. Emergencies are different.

40

DrP,

Calgary, Alberta, Canada 24/02/2008 22:17:47
I still remember fondly my clinics with Mr Wright at Glasgow Southern General.
"What's the first thing you notice about this patient?"
A good start would be is he/she sick?
If a person is sick, they need to be seen and helped urgently, whatever the hour. However, for non urgent, routine problems it is absolutely outrageous that GP's should be asked, far less coerced, to consult out-of-hours. I would have a patient removed from my list for even requesting such a non-emergency appointment.
Remember that health care is not free. If you want to be seen out-of-hours for your convenience you should pay the market rate, and that would not be cheap.
41

Eleana,

Bonnyrigg 24/02/2008 22:55:45
If there is only 1 nurse, how can her hours be staggered to work 24/7 6 days a week? Doh!!!!
42

,

24/02/2008 23:00:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

Eleana,

Bonnyrigg 24/02/2008 23:04:17
If you are ill then you shouldn't be at work! If you are well enough to be at work then you can plan ahead for appointments! If you have a cold, flu, sickness and diarrhoea, a sore throat, sore ears etc then you should not be seeing your doctor anyway. Treat your minor illnesses yourself! Go to Tesco - they stock remedies for all of these! If it is a child THEN you have to seek advice but give them calpol first!!!
44

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/02/2008 23:17:46
HarderTruth @#43,
So if-so, how come when we were young we could see our GP up to 7pm Mon to Frid and on Sat mornings,?
But NOT now!
45

Mack, ,

25/02/2008 09:56:06
"Surgeries should open from 12 - 8pm" What about the medical conditions that need monitored by blood tests that have to be taken after the patient has fasted! I am sure these patients would love this suggestion. What about all the practices whose blood test, smears and other smaples are collected by the lab van before 1pm every day - the Boards run these service and these people are day workers so how do you get this changed without a large amount of funding? Also are you aware that Nurses in surgeries are only allowed to carry out certain procedures if their is a doctor on the premises? How would small practices cope with staggering shifts and fitting in nurse hours - most nurses join general practice to get away from shift working and even if they did agree, again shift working comes at a cost!
46

ADG,

stenhousemuir 25/02/2008 13:55:25
I am a GP and we already see patients for much more than '9-5'. For the record, full time equivalent salary in our practice (after expenses) is about £80,000, despite an excellent performance in the quality related part of the contract. We are not complaining about this - why would we? So why the misinformation in the press about our average salary?

These extra hours are ringed with so many rules (only one doc at a time, must be done in 1.5 hour sessions etc.) that it is clear that they are designed to be deliberately difficult to provide - much like the rules surrounding the last contract change.

This why the government is so furious that we have attained the targets set for us. If the targets were for patient benefit why would we be getting abuse for meeting them?

The real agenda (especially in England) is for the GP businesses to fail. Then private health care providers will be invited in to employ GPs and provide a cheaper service. Ask yourself how they will do that as well as giving a good return to shareholders. Limiting care - that's how. Inexperienced staff and limits on prescribing and referral. And it will be as successful as NHS24 taking control of out of hours from the highly efficient GP co-operatives.

And if you think I'm nuts - well that's what they said about Arthur Scargall when he said they were going to shut down all the coal fields! This is the real agenda. folks - you heard it here first!

 

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