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Desperate plea for peace as Georgian toll mounts

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Published Date: 10 August 2008
AN ELDERLY woman lies battered and dazed in the twisted rubble of her home, her face streaked with blood and soot as she reaches out a despairing hand and begs for help.
As the fires which engulfed the Georgian town of Gori threatened to spread last night, an international team of diplomats was heading to the war-torn former Soviet state in a bid to broker a ceasefire.

UK Defence Secretary Des Browne confirmed that combined EU, US and Nato delegation will travel to Tbilisi as Russian bombardment continued.

The announcement came after Georgia claimed that at least 60 people died in Gori when Russian bombs hit residential buildings as well as military targets.

Russian officials say 2,000 civilians have been killed by Georgian attacks in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

The crisis began spiralling when Georgian forces launched a surprise assault on Thursday night to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992. Fighting raged in South Ossetia for a second day yesterday as Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province and dropped bombs on Georgia that left scores dead or wounded.

There were reports that Russian warplanes bombed the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital and attempted unsuccessfully to bomb the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which carries oil to the West from Asia.

Georgia said it has shot down 10 Russian planes, including four yesterday, according to Kakha Lomaya, head of the country's security council.

There have also been attacks by separatists in Abkhazia, another Georgian province which has Russian backing for independence.

The deepening chaos is threatening to cause a refugee crisis. More than 30,000 refugees from South Ossetia are thought to have fled the fighting there to Russia, Russian government chief of staff Sergei Sobyanin said last night. "In reality we have a humanitarian catastrophe," he said.

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has made a formal declaration of war against Russia. He has also asked the Georgian parliament for permission to proclaim a state of siege. This would increase both his authority and that of the army.

Britain's special representative to the South Caucuses, Sir Brian Fall, was last night attending emergency talks in Georgia with other officials from the US, EU, Nato and the Organisation of Security and Co-operation in Europe.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband expressed fears that the conflict over South Ossetia was spreading to other parts of the region with the prospect of "large scale" civilian losses.

Miliband, who has been in talks with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other counterparts around the world, said: "The UK Government is deeply concerned by the violence in Georgia.

"The escalation in fighting is dangerously destabilising and there is also the threat of civilian losses on a large scale.

"Reports of fighting and bombing outside South Ossetia are especially disturbing as they represent a broadening and deepening of the conflict.

"The UK believes it is vital for leaderships on both sides to call for fighting to cease and for peace talks to start as soon as possible."

Prime Minister Gordon Brown yesterday afternoon held what was described as "long and detailed" talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy, the current head of the European Union. Britain is also standing ready to send humanitarian support to the region.

Miliband added: "The UK will be discussing with all our partners how to stop the spread of violence, secure a ceasefire and get talks under way."

The announcements came as Georgia's ambassador to the UK, Giorgi Badrize, accused Russia of unleashing a "cyber war" as well as an all-out military offensive against his country.

Last year, Estonia claimed that many of its state websites were pulled from the internet after it removed a Soviet war memorial in Tallinn. The Estonians claimed it traced the attacks to Russian state computer servers, but the Kremlin denied any involvement.

Now a number of key Georgian websites, including the personal homepage of President Saakashvili, are no longer operational.

Badrize said: "Georgia has been attacked by a formidable force. It is a brutal attack with the use of air force, tanks and even the trademark cyber attack."

'Planes are bombing us, fire is raging above. Somebody help'

Oil and prestige fuel the 'New Cold War'

Refugees: Agencies fear lack of access to South Ossetia

Scenarios: What lies ahead for Moscow and Tbilisi?

South Ossetia Crisis: Q and A

What is the background to the region?

South Ossetia fought unsuccessfully for independence from Georgia in 1991-1992, following the collapse of the former Soviet Union, and now exists as an autonomous region within the country. A separatist administration has continued to push for the establishment of a new state since the early 1990s. It is supported by Russia, which has troops in the region tasked with peacekeeping.

Why does South Ossetia want independence?

The area is predominantly settled by Ossetians, who originate from the Russian plains and differ ethnically from Georgians. North of the Georgian border, North Ossetia is recognised as a autonomous republic within the Russian Federation, and Southern Ossetians want a similar settlement. Georgia has categorically refused one.

What triggered the recent crisis?

Tension has been building since 2006, when an unofficial referendum in the region revealed a desire amongst South Ossetians to press for full independence, thereby rejecting the autonomous status offered by Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili upon his election in 2004. Attempts by Georgia to move closer to Nato have also irritated the Russians. Weeks after a Nato statement opened the door for Georgian entry into the alliance at an unspecified date in the future, Russia strengthened links with separatists in South Ossetia. A number of clashes have followed.

Are there any ulterior motives behind Georgia's actions?

Some speculators have suggested President Saakashvili may be attempting to spark a conflict between Moscow and Nato as a means of cementing Georgia's as yet unofficial links with the organisation, although analysts predict this outcome would be unlikely.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 August 2008 9:42 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Georgia , Russia
 
1

whomthegodswishtodestroytheyfirstmakemad,

10/08/2008 01:04:25
POLITICIAN DIES IN WAR , SHOCK ! *

* At the time of publication we are unable to verify this story.
2

Conan,

Moffat 10/08/2008 01:20:56
Georgia pose no threat to Russia whatsoever - other than in the fevered paranoid propganda infested minds of the current 'Kremlin' leadership, whose agenda is solely the perpetuation of the stinking corrupt regime that they have cultivated in Russia these days.

This has nothing to do with the American strategy of placing missiles in Poland and other countries surrounding Russia, as others have previosly posted in related stories, but this is merely Russia's leadership acting in the only way they have come to understand may perpetuate their position. The usual playing to the Russian 'street' as a distraction from Russia's monumental problems. Seem to recall that no-good bum Galtieri tried that in the Falklands - and it didn't turn out so well for them. Hopefully the Russians will pay a savage and horrendous price for this outrage of invadinga European democracy while the other European democracies sit idly by as the slaughter continues - a la recent Balkans experience. It just makes me so PROUD to be a European!

Anyway, how much of a threat is Georgia - a nation with no meaningful military, navy or air force - to Russia?

A lot is you figure (as is the case) that The Republic of Georgia as curently configured does get in the way of Russia's ambitions of 'putting the band back together in the region'. Armenia will be next if this works.

This is Russia simply doing its historic bullying act.

Russia has again pulled another invasion of a smaller democratic neighbour .... just as they did with all of their former Tsarist and CCCP territories, Finland, the Kuril Islands, all of the former 'Eastern Block' aka 'Eastern Europe' and Afganistan.

They simply don't seem to comprehend that this form of military stategy will simply not work anymore.

It would be nice if Georgia could be left alone to secure its legal territorial positions in those parts of its own territory that have been encouraged by the Russians since 1990 to 'break away' from Tblisi - and ha
3

Mashimaro,

China 10/08/2008 02:35:51
NO TO NATO! NO TO MISSILES

FREE RUSSIA FROM WESTERN BULLYING AND DOMINATION NOW
4

Jim A,

10/08/2008 02:57:37
I despair, will the human race never learn to live in peace?
5

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 10/08/2008 03:33:00
I wonder where they're going to start giving out passports next before being 'forced' to send in the tanks to 'protect' their 'citizens'.
6

W Smith,

Middle East 10/08/2008 03:48:16
The hypocrisy of some, not all, SNP voters is staggering.

Some of them are supporting colonialist Russia against independent Georgia.

The weasel arguement is that the Georgian government is america's "puppet" and is "backed by the CIA".

Anti-NATO Salmond is looking more and more like a radical fifth column leftie who refuses to support Scottish soldiers in Afghanistan while one of his councillors takes his family to the Jihadist equivalent of Disneyland so they can all shoot AK-47s.

BTW
See how some SNP bloggers try to crash this forum by making the same stupid comment hundreds of times.

Usually it involves a story involving the SNP and some Muslim group.
7

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 10/08/2008 05:28:14
W Smith, The stupidity of you is staggering!
8

Dee Till Eh deh,

Hong Kong 10/08/2008 05:33:30
Showing your true colours Mashimaro eh?
9

Alec M,

Falkirk 10/08/2008 06:28:14
#6 - Shouldn't you be getting ready for your paper round, sonny?

If you don't work hard and stick in, you'll never see your name above a chain of shops.
10

James1480,

10/08/2008 06:57:42
If history is any guide, peace is what happens when everybody stops to reload.
11

SouthernSkye,

10/08/2008 08:44:06
Just been listening to the news and, because Russia has a permenant seat on the UN security council, any statement condemming Russian action can be vetoed by Russia !
So, Russia might as well write the letter and hand it to the Security council and tell them "You can issue this"!!

Will we ever learn that war is stupid? Or will we never learn because we are stupid??
12

Richardinho,

10/08/2008 09:19:51
'Georgia pose no threat to Russia whatsoever - other than in the fevered paranoid propganda infested minds of the current 'Kremlin' leadership, whose agenda is solely the perpetuation of the stinking corrupt regime that they have cultivated in Russia these days.'

In this case it is 'little' Georgia which has been the aggressor. See the quote from above;

"The crisis began spiralling when Georgian forces launched a surprise assault on Thursday night to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992."
13

,

10/08/2008 09:39:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/08/2008 09:49:39
3 - a comedian.
15

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/08/2008 09:50:29
6- another comedian
16

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/08/2008 09:54:17
13 - there's too much money to be made out of warfare, it's a nice little earner for the arms trade. And of course somebody has to finance war, I wonder who's benefiting financially from this episode ?
Anyway, Putin for a long time now has shown that he's worthy successor to his Uncle Joe.
17

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/08/2008 09:55:52
Not that the BBC is interested too much in the conflict, as far as they're concerned everything revolves around the Olympics (yawn).
18

ddmc,

10/08/2008 10:11:51
Who Benefits ?

If anyone attacks Iran, any land based support from Russia would have to travel via Georgia to reach Iran.

19

Black Five,

edinburgh 10/08/2008 10:14:25
Ever since 1945 this communist country has been a blight on the map.When are we ever going to see this ever end ? Churchill was right that we should have pressed them back after the second world war.
20

overton,

aberdeen 10/08/2008 10:19:05

Am I missing something here?
I was sure that the facts are that the aggressor was Georgia by attacking South Ossetia on thursday night?
21

cali,

Estonia 10/08/2008 10:38:52
# 23 - I'm afraid it's not as black-and-white as that... there has been continous harrassment of Georgia by Russia since at least 2004 IIRC - in the form of Russian planes attacking Georgian targets, and AFAIK this recent escalation of the conflict was pretty much due to the president of Georgia being put into a no-win position- there were several bombings of the villages of Georgian civilian citizens by Russia. Do nothing, and your own people ask why are you not responding to them being killed, respond, and you get what Russia has been hoping to achieve with its provocations for the last 5 years...
There's nothing new under the sun. Russia still operates in the time-honoured style of the USSR.
22

Mashimaro,

China 10/08/2008 10:59:16
#15 Glad to know you're not racist or paranoid. Russia has as much right as any of you to exist and to look after its national interests.
The west has continued to bully and threaten Russia since the USSR broke up. You have to ask yourself why Nato is still in existence anyway as it was purely aimed at containing the USSR.
In this case Georgia has called Nato's bluff.
Do you really expect Russia to sit by and let its people be slaughtered?
You guys started this with Kosovo, so zip it and suck it up.
23

Mashimaro,

China 10/08/2008 11:02:05
It's really interesting to see the UK press' spin on this. I can see Europe tearing itself apart, heh. More money in the pockets of the oil barons under the "you die, we cry" US foreign policy.
24

Observer. 1,

10/08/2008 13:02:19
Georgia would not have launched an attack on South Ossetia without explicit sanction from the US. They want to secure access to the Baku- Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, that's what this is about. Russia has every right to defend its interests in the region, and the South Ossetians don't want to be part of a pro West Georgian client state. The anti Russians propogandists are out in force in the media and the comments section.
25

Pa broon,

Edinburgh 10/08/2008 13:09:53
24 is spot on.This situation has been engineered by the Russians, unfortunately the Georgians coudn't see the wood from the trees and reacted. This is no longer a broken USSR with the countries new found oil wealth the Russian military is quickly being rebuilt and tested.They are well aware that western governments will do little or nothing. If it is successful in this theatre of operation it will use the same tactics again in another one of its former republics. Sudetenland 1938 all over again. Who else has got Russian ethnic minorities?
26

Tiredofdrivel ,

Essex 10/08/2008 13:26:13
Since Russia has become rich on oil and gas it has constantly waved a big stick at other countries, previously it was economic, now it has turned to armed conflict. The main reason will be oil, if Russia controls the oil terminal in Georgia it will even have a bigger stranglehold on Europe.
In the short term Russia will be seen as winning, in the medium to long term Russia will only ostracize itself further from Europe. I am certain that the various Governments in Europe are aware of Russia game plan, which means that Europe now has to look to defend its borders and hence this will result in a return to the cold war. Look at the current situation with BNP, Russia just wants control.
27

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 10/08/2008 13:45:20
Why does the previous item on Pension funds invested in Zimbabwe include about 900 "removed by administrator" notifications. What right do Johnston Press have to censor perfectly legitimate comment? If the fault lies with someone abusing the posting system can they not exclude the offender without stifling legitimate comment from others.
28

Maksim,

10/08/2008 13:46:57
24, 28 We can say that the US politicians and their allies engineered this. Russians had never had any problems w/ Georgians until two idiots came to the power in Georgia – that paranoid a-e Gamsahurdia who fortunately passed away and this young stupid lad Saakashvili who’d like to cross out the long history of genuinely warm relations between Georgians and Russians. I feel very sad these days that stupidity, blindness or deliberate criminal intention to burn the world by few puppets led to this awful tragedy.
29

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/08/2008 13:53:56
25 you are implying only those and such as those have the right to self-determination. This fits in well with your support for the fascist imperialist gangsters in Beijing.
30

Pilrig.,

Livignston 10/08/2008 13:55:33
28 spot on Pa, Sudetenland all over again.
31

Mike555,

Falkirk 10/08/2008 14:00:19
The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline came on stream in the first half of 2006, running from the Sangachal terminal in Azerbaijan via Georgia to the Mediterranean coast of Turkey. Oil from the 6 platforms offshore Caspian is producing 1,000,000bls of Azeri oil each day and travels through this system. Oil can also be shipped by the western pipeline route to the Georgian port of Supsa. Billions have been spent on this project and more money is earmarked for the next phase. If the Russians bomb these pipelines or damage the port infrastructure BP and the other members of the AIOC consortium will lose heavily. Be interesting to see BP's SP tomorrow as I can see both these pipeline systems being shut down shortly if the situation escalates to the rest of Georgia.
32

Neil,

Glasgow 10/08/2008 14:11:26
Is that not a magnificently melodramatic first paragraph. Reminds me of the time this paper opened a story about a cery small number of ethnicly cleansed Serbs getting their homes back by talking about the tear stained kid whose family had stolen it in the first palce.

On the other hand their refusal to talk about the 1400 Ossetians killed (in a populatiion of 70,000) in the first few hours of the Georgian surprise attack is reminiscent of our media's refusal to even report the way NATO helped the KLA to kidnap humndreds of Serbian teens & dissect them to provide organs for our hospitals.

The media always have their agenda.

The western "desperate plea" for a ceasefire ignores the fact that there already is one. The Georgians announced a complete ceasefire hours before mounting their genocidal surprise attack. It would be unwise merely to trust to a repitition of that promise. The Georgians atempted to repeated the open genocide carried out, under US tutelege, against the people of Krajina, also breaking a ceasefire. The rusians will not let that western genocide be repeated.
33

Gere,

Scotland 10/08/2008 15:08:48
The hidden hand of Israel has shown itself here!

Israel has been selling arms worth millions to Georgia and has thousands of Israeli "Military Advisors" in Georgia!

Israel desperately wants the main pipeline for oil to be routed through a pipline via Turkey to Israeli Ports such as Ashkolan. Thence to Israeli refineries and affording Israel greater profits! What most people are unaware of is that Israel has invested heavily in the Oil Industry and that was a possible motive in Israel instructing America to invade Iraq! If I recall corectly, Iraq was forced to agree to supply oil to Israel at the time of the occupation by American troops who invaded Iraq on the strength of the lie that Saddam had WMD.

Now it appears that the Americans together with their Israeli masters are preparing to try the same stunt on Iran, the population of the world has demonstrated its gullibility of believing America on Iraq, it should work again!
34

GONNYNODEATHAT,

Glasgow 10/08/2008 16:55:34
I am disgusted at Scottish and British press reporting and comments of this conflict. This conflict/War is no different from the Falklands conflict. The Russians are only defending their own people who asked for their help. The only reason the UN is jumping up and down is because of Georgian Oil and Gas interests.
"Galpin said that a large number of Georgian troops had poured into the town in recent days, suggesting there is a mass mobilisation of the country's 26,000-strong army.

He added: "There are claims from the Georgian side that several Georgian military bases were bombed by Russian aircraft and a port in the south of the country, on the Black Sea coast a long way from Gori.

"Clearly the Russians are choosing a lot of targets around the country."

Some of this reporting is pathetic to say the least. Do these people honestly think they could attack another country without someone shooting back at them? So the aggressor who picks and starts a fight according to the western press is now the innocent party?
35

Dan DDS,

Rocky River 10/08/2008 17:22:33
Is there ever an event without a conspiracy theorist?

Thanx, #36, you didn't let us down.
36

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 10/08/2008 18:20:35
#22>
Was the great man Churchill great when he showerd Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler with admiration during the 1920s & the 1930s and personally ordered the poison gas bombing off the defencelss Kurds in Iraq during 1922?
And the man you seem to have a sycophatic admiration for was also DIRECTLY responsible for the slaughter off thousands of Ausies and Anzacs in Gallipoli and Dardanelles during the First World War!
During the Second World War attempts were made by certain elements inside the government to have him
removed and at one time was more detested by Tories than ever he was by any other political organisation!
37

Gere,

Scotland 10/08/2008 19:16:12
Post #40 Dan DDS

Thanks Dan, wait till I really warm to the subject, some of my conspiacy theories wil make your hair stand on end. I promise, I am not bragging!!!
38

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 10/08/2008 20:08:46
Why oh why oh why do we humans choose cretins to lead us? Wars always result in civilian deaths, and always leave an extraordinarily bitter legacy that simply leads to more wars. All that was required was an offical, internationally observed referendum in South Ossetia, and a recognition of the results by both Vladimir Putin and Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. If it takes years of discussions to resolve an issue as an alternative to war, then hold those discussions. I conclude that both Vladimir Putin and Mikheil Saakashvili have hearts like septic tanks, and are certifiable idiots. I'm sick of retarded dopes holding the reins of power everywhere.
39

Arrow,

edinburgh 10/08/2008 20:58:09
this is the start of the energy wars. the russian have a tight grip on the supplies of oil and gas that supplies the former USSR countries and has in the past not been too slow in drawing this to the attention of Ukraine, Bellorussia and the others. Georgia has a ipeline supplying (according to the papers) 1 million barrels of oil per day via Turkey to the west. to know that your energy supplies (industrial production, health and welfare) are under threat does concentrate the mind. i read that beacsue we have no where to store the gas we export it and then re-import it at a higher cost. in addition because the French are running some of the eletricity companies they are putting up the price for UK customers but cannot for their French consumers because the French Govt has forbidden increases over 5%!!
40

Mashimaro,

China 10/08/2008 21:03:07
#28, #28

You guys really talk so much rubbish it's embarassing. Of course Russia has put money into its armed forces as it has grown richer. The Soviet armed forces - the ones that had you shivering under your beds at nights - was a joke. Of course the country would improve its military as its finances improves. The spending is nowhere NEAR what the US spends on its highly equipped, highly trained military, yet you seem to think that is all okay.
Russia is responding to Georgia's agression and this "Oh poor us" crying by Georgia is a joke. They are trying to pull Europe in to the war with them, as is the western press. If you want to see real suffering and bloodshed, then join the war. If you want it over asap with minimum fuss... leave it alone.
Russia has never used its oil supplies as a "big stick" to bully anyone. That is just how your western press wrote it. It simply asked certain nations to pay the going rate for its oil, that is all. there is no reason those nations should get their oil at special cut rate prices, especially when they become anti-Russian. I think the English saying goes along the lines of not biting the hand that feeds you.
41

Piotr,

Warsaw 10/08/2008 22:01:13
Please, do not believe a word when you hear a Russian official. Now THEY call Mr. Saakashvili a criminal. It's precisely the same lie THEY used to employ with respect to any non-communist politician in the Central and Eastern Europe after the World War II. Mr. Putin & his Boys lie even during their sleep.

I would not be surprised if THEY inform us one day that "Georgian criminals" killed Mr. Litvinyenko. This kind of statement is quite typical for KGB that happens to rule Russia at the moment.
42

Carolyn 1,

10/08/2008 22:39:55
http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=1934
"Georgia On My Mind
BAGHDAD - Last night in the mess hall two Georgian officers sat down at the table opposite me. The one facing me was a bit disheveled; his uniform top was misbuttoned. It was the kind of mistake you could make if you were in a hurry. Both ate quickly and silently.

I wanted to say something, but what do you say at a time like this? And I thought, what did I say to my friends in New York on 9-11? I rose from my chair, walked over, and asked if they had spoken with their families. They had. And they were alright.

The tiny Republic of Georgia, which straddles the land bridge between the world’s largest lake and the largest inland sea, is home to five million people. Both in population and in size, it is smaller than the other Georgia most Americans know. And yet, that miniscule country has provided 2,000 soldiers to assist our mission in Iraq. Why?

The answer to that question is obvious when you look at a list of countries who have forces here. Among the thirty nations are all three Baltic Republics, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhistan, and the Ukraine–each one a former Soviet Republic–along with several former Soviet Bloc countries including Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. These are all countries who knew oppression. They knew fear. And they knew death at the hands of dictators.

They knew one other thing too. They knew the power of America to transform a hopeless situation. They knew that America didn’t abandon them. Sure it took a while, but they knew that America would persevere. And that they would persevere. And that they would win. And they did win.

That’s why, when in the sixth year of this war, when much of the rest of the world has abandoned America, when even many Americans have abandoned America, they who know best the horror of oppression, and the strength of the American spirit, have not abandoned us here in Iraq.

Albania, Bosnia-Herzeg
43

Carolyn 1,

10/08/2008 22:41:28
(continued)

Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia, Slovenia, and all the rest who have been allowed out out from behind the Iron Curtain are now looking at America to watch what we do for Georgia. "



Good luck Georgia.

44

Carolyn 1,

10/08/2008 23:23:08
Is it always about oil and who controls it?

Russia tried to bomb the BTC pipeline but missed. The third largest in the world, and owned by a consortium of European companies, the pipeline is crucial for Georgia's economic survival.
Bombing the pipeline serves many purposes for Russia.

To counter Russia controlling the region's energy supply, Europe is trying to expand the BTC pipeline along a route through Israel to Asia. This will have the effect of lessening the grip Russia has over Europe, and Russia would like nothing better than to disrupt the expansion. Bombing it was a brazen act of aggression.

They probably ignoried the cease fire, hoping to take another attempt at hitting it.
The choice to Europe will now be- to stand with Georgia, or submit to Russian control of energy.
45

McGinty,

10/08/2008 23:37:15
#49, #50.
Good posts. Oppression goes beyond race and nationality, but when peoples act to relieve it and to bring healing and aid to situations of strife, then surely that counts for something.
46

Dougie, Edinburgh,

10/08/2008 23:45:28
49 Carolyn 1
Sorry, it's just propaganda.

If you want to bring Kosovo into the discussion, part of a Serbia, ethnic majority Albanian population, Albanians attack Serb minority, attack Serbian military forces, Serbs react, Serbs win, Kosovans appeal to the international press and powerful foreign military allies (NATO) who bomb Serbia to give up its sovereign territory. Interesting comparison with South Ossetia don't you think?

South Ossetia: vast majority of the people not Georgian and want independence from Georgia. Georgian military attacks; South Ossetia appeal to powerful ally to protect them who them fights back against Georgia.

Actually very similar don't you think? So what makes Russia the villain here when it was ok for NATO to bomb Serbia??
47

Dougie, Edinburgh,

10/08/2008 23:48:57
Actually I disagree this is about oil at all. It's an ethnic conflict pure and simple. Any multi-ethnic region there's always going to be conflict over who's in control.
48

Carolyn 1,

11/08/2008 00:04:48
Supressed by a brutal police, the ethnic factions were tightly controlled under Soviet Rule. The fourteeen states that were cut from the Soviet rule comprise these many factions. These ethnic groups are arguing trying to settle their differences, Russia stands by, watching, and can say like a good Papa, you did not argue when you were part of the Soviet Union.
Russia stirs the pot, and stirs it well.

America is a vast melting pot of foreigners, but it was done gradually by people moving here by choice, not by an authority demanding it.
In Europe- the wins and spoils of wars has divided and redivided, drawn borders and redrawn borders for centuries, despite the ethnic similiaritries of a people.
What would Europe, the Baltics, Russia etc look like, and act like, where would the borders be, if ethnic groups could live with the same ethnic groups and not have to live where they were ordered.
Just a thought.
So yes, this is like Kosovo. And I supported Kosovo's right to be sovereign and part of the EU and UN.
49

Carolyn 1,

11/08/2008 00:06:55
#54
I agree, it's about ethnicity, but oil is what gives the country an income so it can survive.
What good is keeping and holding dear your ethnicity, freedom, etc. if your family is starving?
50

Dougie, Edinburgh,

11/08/2008 00:29:49
55 Carolyn 1
If you supported Kosovo's right to be independent on some moral principle, I really can't understand why you don't support South Ossetia's right to be independent. Presumably, maybe in about 20 years, you'll also support California's right to be independent as the ethnic majority decides it wants to succeed and unite with Mexico. In another 10 or 20 after that, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas may follow.

Actually, I think it's wishful thinking to claim that America's a melting pot of foreigners. On the contrary, multi-ethnic parts of America are as seething with tensions as any other multi-ethnic part of the world; for the time being the white majority is keeping the problems bottled up but since the whites won't be a majority for ever, it's living on borrowed time. Ethnic troubles usually worsen when the ethnic majority who control a country can't maintain their majority status.
51

Carolyn 1,

11/08/2008 00:43:16
#57
IMO, the difference is that Kosovo wanted to be sovereign. I haven't read where Ossetia is seeking independence, I've only read that Russia wants it to be Russian and have Russian passports.
In the big overview, I think its more about Georgia wanting the Russian 'peacekeepers' out of their country long enough to give them a chance to see if they can make the country work without constant interference. ..Who knows unless given the chance...
52

Carolyn 1,

11/08/2008 00:55:34
#57 Dougie
If you believe even one word of your second paragraph you truly need to stop reading the Scotsman (and the New York Times)and get yourself in America for a vacation.


No matter your country you'd fit in fine, as long as you speak English! We bad.

As for Scots, my town celebrates tartan day we have so many Scots here. This spring, the town had to pass an ordinance- no bagpipes before 9:00 AM. That's about as much racial disruption as I can recall.

53

Carolyn 1,

11/08/2008 01:10:13
The Ukraine has stopped Russian ships from using their ports:
on the ministry's web site:
“In order to prevent the circumstances in which Ukraine could be drawn into a military conflict … Ukraine reserves the right to bar ships which may take part in these actions from returning to the Ukrainian territory until the conflict is solved,”


Thanks Ukraine!
You win the medal!
You've got more chutzpah than the EU and US combined.
54

Dougie, Edinburgh,

11/08/2008 01:29:04
58 Carolyn 1
Ossetians want to be part of Russia because Russia allows them to live as Ossetians just as they do in North Ossetia; Georgia however wants to assimilate them just as Serbia wanted to assimilate the Albanians. I don't see why it makes any difference whether the Ossetians want independence or to rejoin Russia (this area was once part of Russia). The issue at stake is self determination. BTW, don't assume that Kosovo will remain an independent country. It could quite likely unite with Albania.

Officially, yes, South Ossetia (and Abkhazia) are part of Georgia. But the people who live there aren't ethnic Georgians and don't want to be part of Georgia. This is was regarded as sufficient justification by NATO to back the Kosovan break away.
55

Dougie, Edinburgh,

11/08/2008 01:37:07
59 Carolyn 1
Yes, I've visited the USA many times and have several American friends. I'm guessing you live in a majority white area. I don't so many white folk in Los Angeles, Houston, Detroit, Washington, Miami or a host of other places would claim there aren't racial problems in the USA. Here are some interesting statistics I found, they won't necessarily apply to the area where you live but the thing is, the USA is a big country and different cities are demographically very different:

Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks.

Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely.


http://www.amren.com/reports/color_of_crime.pdf

From 1992 to 2003, Hispanic illiteracy in English rose from 35 percent to 44 percent.

Only 33 percent of citizens of Hispanic origin consider themselves "Americans" first. The rest consider themselves either "Hispanic/Latino" or their former nationality first.

http://www.amren.com/reports/Hispanics/Hispanics.htm
56

James Donald,

Newbridge 11/08/2008 10:51:29
#61 Dougie, Edinburgh - The collapse of the Soviet Union left many Russians in the "new" countries that emerged from the Soviet Union. For example, the Ida-Viru region of Estonia contains many ethnic Russians and the main towns of Narva and Kohtla-Järve have a Russian majority. If the population in these areas want to be part of Russia, do you think they should be allowed to break away and join up with Russia? Self determination in this area would see Russia profit from generations of attempted assimilation called Russification.
57

Neil,

Glasgow 11/08/2008 19:07:48
Carolyn said "Russia tried to bomb the BTC pipeline but missed" & then went on with a lot of guff about how the noble openly genocidal (ex-)Nazis we supported in Yugoslavia are so impressed with our democratic ideals.

There is nothing in the world easier to bomb than a hundreds of miles long oil popeline. This is why we are getting less oil out of Iraq than when we were imposing a blockade.

The fact that the Russians didn't bomb it is because the Russians decided not to bomb it.

James Donald you ask a very good question to which there is no "right" answer. It applies to other places to such asc southern California, Bradford & (shortly) London. Unfortunately by assisting Croatians & Bosnian Moslems to break up Yugoslavia, participating in genocide to deny national rights to Serbs in both countries, grabbing Kosvo on the grounds that it is allowedcto secede, ethnicly cleansing it & then saying that the Serbian majority don't have the same right to secede we have demonstrated that our commitment is purely to racial mass murder & that no NATO country can have anything to contribute to a peaceful & just solution.

When we have strung up 500 lying genocidal organlegging Nazi MPs then we may be in a position to express a view.
58

Dougie, Edinburgh,

12/08/2008 00:23:30
63 James Donald

I don't think there are rigid universal moral principles which can be applied across the whole world regardless of pragmatic considerations. No: I don't think Russians should be able to break off part of a small Baltic country on the basis of their Communism assisted colonisation. But that's not what's happening in South Ossetia.

What I don't like is the outrageous incredible bias in the American and British press and the blatant hypocrisy in the British and American government positions.
59

Dougie, Edinburgh,

12/08/2008 00:24:29
If NATO has supported Kosovan independence on supposedly moral principles then clearly South Ossetia has at least as much justification for declaring independence. Whereas Kosovo was Serbian for hundreds of years until the Albanians were able to outbreed and harass the Serbs into leaving, South Ossetia has never been ethnically Georgian. Furthermore, Georgia is clearly the aggressor here and large scale shelling of civilians is hardly the action of a junior local commander: it's something planned from the top. Effectively, Georgia has seen the precedent in Kosovo for a successful American backed ethnic expulsion and decided it's going to get away with the same thing the Albanians did to the Serbs.
60

57Nomad,

california 12/08/2008 20:50:32
#62 doogie

I think that blacks commit more violent crimes against other blacks than they do against white people, contrary to your claim. Would you please cite your source for this claim? Although, a white person is fifty times more likely to be the recipient of an assault from a black person than vice versa.

Both of your observations about the breakdown of the prison population are probably correct. Please let me ask you, what conclusions do you draw from these data?

You note that:

"From 1992 to 2003, Hispanic illiteracy in English rose from 35 percent to 44 percent." What are we to make of this? It might be interesting to note the number of children of illegal aliens presently enrolled in California public schools. It is no doubt much higher than in 1992. It obviously also references those Latinos who were born in Latin America and for whom English is a second language. Looked at in that light it means that 56% of Latinos for whom English is a second language are literate in two languages. What's wrong with that?

As for the only 33 percent who considered themselves Americans, one would need to see the actual report.
The link you provide is dead. The AmRen site you reference seems to have a conflict of interest. Do you have another, not quite so blatantly biased?


 

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