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Church: we'll make gay rights martyrs

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Published Date: 28 January 2007
THE Catholic Church is to go to war over new legislation on rights for homosexuals, vowing to create "gay rights martyrs" if the laws are passed.
In a change of tactics, Church officials now say they will not close down adoption agencies as a result of new laws forcing them to deal with applications from gay couples.

Instead, they will deliberately break the law in order to bring a case to
court. The Church believes it could then challenge a guilty verdict through Article 9 of the Human Rights Act, which upholds the freedom of religious expression.

The challenge considerably increases the temperature in a row that last week left the Cabinet divided and prompted warnings from Church leaders that the issue would prompt them to campaign against Labour in May's Scottish elections. Scotland has two Catholic adoption agencies, which place about 200 children and offer aftercare to 2,000 more.

Previously, Church leaders have said that the agencies would be forced to close, however, a spokesman for the Church told Scotland on Sunday: "We will not shut down the agencies. We will carry on working until someone takes us to court for breaking the law." He added: "There would then be a case where one of our agencies would be found guilty of breaking the law and would be put out of business."

He went on: "We believe there is an opportunity for a judicial review on the grounds that compelling people to act against their religious beliefs contravenes Article 9 of the ECHR."

The plan follows a similar challenge brought against the government in Northern Ireland, where the act has already been introduced. Brought by the Christian Institute, the bid will go ahead in March, in an attempt to topple the regulations in the Province.

The Church is now also warning of other examples where its members may find themselves breaking the new legislation. Once passed, the Equality Act, will ban any discrimination in the provision of services on grounds of sexuality.

The spokesman added: "We will see priests prosecuted for saying they are not renting the hall for a same-sex celebration." He went on: "What about the Christian bookshop which refuses to stock gay literature? They will all be breaking the law."

MSPs took the step of allowing gay adoption barely a month ago, when they passed the Adoption Act. That legislation contained a compromise for church leaders allowing Catholic adoption agencies to pass gay couples on to other agencies, rather than being compelled to take them on. Ministers in London are now updating the Sexual Orientation (Provision of Goods and Services) Regulations, which would apply throughout the UK, and are desperately trying to broker their own compromise with the Church.

One option being examined is a regulation in the bill that would mirror the deal made with clerics in Scotland.

Westminster officials last night insisted that Prime Minister Tony Blair and communities minister Ruth Kelly - the two Cabinet supporters of a Catholic 'exemption' - had not fully capitulated over the gay-adoption issue and were maintaining efforts to seek a "workable compromise". Home Secretary John Reid floated the possibility of following Scotland's lead in pacifying the Catholic Church and the gay community - although he insisted the thrust of the equal-opportunities legislation should not be diverted.

"If there's a transitional period - or in Scotland they've suggested other ways of handling this - then by all means do it," Reid said. "But it mustn't overrule the fundamental principle."

A spokesman for Kelly's department said she was investigating all possible alternatives, including the "Scottish solution". He added: "There is a will to produce the most acceptable regulations possible."



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1

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

28/01/2007 01:33:02

I can see 2007 being one HELL of a year, cant we all just get on :)

2

Androsthenes,

EDINBURGH 28/01/2007 01:43:46

Having created 'abused children martyrs' it's stomach turning for the RC Church to attempt to claim the moral high ground on sexual matters.

3

Em,

28/01/2007 01:53:08

Good on the church for standing up for there principles and not giving in to this tyrannical government.

In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is revolutionary.

4

Em,

28/01/2007 01:56:38

#2
Perhaps you should read this article before jumping on the band wagon.

5

Gnasher,

28/01/2007 01:59:06

I thought they were divine, not human! But to defend their "human rights" these childless homophobic celibates with an imaginary friend are going to go to war on gay men and lesbians. They are desperate and pathetic.

6

,

28/01/2007 01:59:08
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7

Gnasher,

28/01/2007 01:59:58

Em, you mean this tyrannical ELECTED government.

8

,

28/01/2007 02:04:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

28/01/2007 02:09:02

Comment@6 Em, hey dude, thanks for trying to link us to the contents of your hard drive hehehe :)

10

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 28/01/2007 02:26:12

Although I am not a believer myself, I respect the right of the church to stay loyal to its teachings.
Also, the government should be concerning itself with more pressing matters.

11

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

28/01/2007 02:28:25

Comment@8 Em, happens to us all when were burning the midnight oil mate :)

12

Ginster's Pastie,

28/01/2007 02:32:35

About time for the CC to get the shaft on not allowing women priests on grounds of discrimination.

The CC is basically a political institution that does religion as a sideline.

13

Voldemort,

Musselburgh 28/01/2007 03:25:21

What would be the harm in letting any organisation 'positivley' discriminate in favour of those that it sees as being fitting with their own beliefs? ... I am sure there are other adoption agencies that gays can go to other than the catholic church that would welcome them - why does the church have to change when 'market forces' already deal with the problem?

If this was a muslim belief I wager the loony left parties would cave and let them have their own way because they might get call a 'racist' (and we can't have that can we regardless of how rediculous the cry is!?) - this is why foxhunting is banned and halal animal killing still goes on - double standards against those who are British (in the real sense of the word!) ...

14

Carlo,

Fort William 28/01/2007 03:29:30

The liberals and the homosexual lobby are at odds with all religions not just the RC church......its a fundemental of being of a liberal mind......

The RC church is always in the line of fire in Scotland as they appear to be the only ones who refuse to be cowed by the anti-religious brigade.....I for one would like to see the 'State' religion CoS stand up more for the rights of the christian minded throughout Scotland.....but I will not be holding my breathe........but in the meantime more power to the RC church in this fight and I wish it every success......(for the record I'm CoS)

15

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 04:24:22

13 - Voldemort

Yup, you explain exactly what is good about being British.

16

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 04:37:09

So now the catholic church is openly plotting to become a criminal organization by encouraging its people to break the law... doesn't anyone have a problem with this?

Incidentally Em, some of the facts of your link are not entirely true. Priests were indeed more likely to be pedophiles because unlike anyone else, when pedophile priests were discovered they'd be reported to the church instead of the police, and instead of jailing them the church merely moved them to another church to abuse more children.

And of course, when this fact was discovered, along with direct instructions from the vatican to protect the pedophile priests rather than defrock them or turn them in, the church's reaction wasn't to admit fault, but rather to blame gay people. Charming.

17

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 04:38:58

Carlo, your claim about liberals and churches is entirely false. Many liberals are religious. Many church people are liberal. Statements to the contrary are a viscious lie told to try to make liberal people into scapegoats for the bigotry of those who feel it is their right to tell everyone else how to live their lives.

18

S'me,

28/01/2007 05:47:14

Church should spend its energies on more pressing problems..poverty etc

19

Football Fan,

Oz 28/01/2007 05:53:19

It is true that a tiny minority of members of the Catholic faith have committed crimes against children. It is also true that this allows the bigotted and the degenerates of our population to jump on the bandwagon and criticise everything Catholic. This is not just absurd, it is indicative of the small-minded, bias and uneducated majority that poisons scotland.

Protestants should remember that their "religion", if that is what it is, only exists because a fat King from the 14th Century couldn't keep his cod piece on. How protestants can dare to claim any moral stance is mind blowing.

For all the ills of the Catholic faith, ours is a religion of optimism, tolerance and understanding. It is also a religion that does not bow down to the whim of modern thinking, rather; follows it's heart and it's principles.

I may be ashamed of some of the things done by some members of my faith, but I am forever warmed and inspired by the gentility and support of my fellow catholics.

I am also proud of my church at taking a stand on this issue.

20

Wally,

Arizona 28/01/2007 05:58:03

a private group like RC Church should not be forced to do what it doesn't want. Their adoption agencies perform a good purpose. Government should not dictate to them.

not only that the catholics are right, god made families with mothers & fathers and children should have both.

at same time there's something horribly wrong with the pedophile problems of catholic church some posters have noted. Evil forces are working in this world.

We have same issues in Arizona believe it or not.

21

Wally,

Arizona 28/01/2007 06:06:21

#18 S'Me said something very christian.

the bible does speak badly about homosexual activity. But the bible speaks badly about the people in general. It says we people just don't measure up. It lists many failures we fall into. and homosexuality is only one of many. The bible says that love of money is the root of all evil.

the christian preachers whether they be catholic, protestant or other should be preaching against the love of money and not be so concerned about homosexuality.

There's female hormones in the meat we eat. there's soy products in the food. these things cause homosexuality. Evil spirits are swarming onto us and we must call to our maker to be released from this evil. A spiritual battle is at play. jesus will return and destroy the evil spiritual forces in due time. Until then we should build our faith and not bash gay people.

22

sage,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 06:16:59

The Catholic Chidrens society which runs the adoption agencies and other children services in England received excellent inspection results in recent visits by inspectors.They have very low disruption results-much better than the local authority services-and the support structures are of a very high standards.They represent a very precious contribution to the fosteribg abd adoption field-staff are very experienced having worked in these setting with good supervision,They should not close -children would be the losers in the long term

23

sage,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 06:20:04

16 your staement about priests being more likely to commit offences against children than any other ocupational group is not true.

24

Chris MacInnes,

Edinburgh, SCOTLAND 28/01/2007 06:35:30

Every time I see such religious debate it just upsets me and reminds me more and more how I came to reach my own personal decision to leave the Roman Catholic church.

The book these people believe in, like most sacred religious texts, was written my MEN in a time of MEN and contains a million illogical demands of the followers that DID NOT come from a god [or God] but came from a few peoples lips.

It is not right to FORCE the RC church to behave a certain way just like it is not right to FORCE followers to condem certain physical/loving practices. No one is right here, there is no right side.

I am comfortable in the knowledge that anyone part of any religion which preaches persecution and genuinely thinks they are going to be rewarded by what we must presume is a loving god who created us ALL is simply dedicating themselves to the words written by men living thousands of years ago and not god itself.

If god is love we should not preach with hate.

25

jamesfm,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 06:39:16

I agree that the Roman Catholic Church should not be forced to place children with homosexual adoptive parents. They clearly won't do it, anyway. The answer is a simple one: ban private and religious organisations from delivering public services of this type.

The law applies to everyone. There are things I object to out of conscience, but which the law says I must do. Similarly, my consciences would allow me to do some other things, but the law does not.

So, don't force the Catholic Church to act against conscience. Just don't allow them to act at all.

26

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 06:58:12

#19 Football Fan, please review our history books. Protestantism was started by Martin Luther, who was not a fat king.

While it is no doubt a tiny minority of those of the catholic faith that committed crimes against children, more troubling is the fact that evidence of the coverup, which allowed such crimes to keep going on, went right to the vatican.

You'd be better to have been proud of your church if they'd reacted to the revelation of their misdeeds by admitting their complicity, accepting the consequences, and doing penance, instead of pointing the finger at their regular victims.

#20 Wally, the church would not be forced to do what they disapprove of. They have but to stop being involved with adoptions, and then they're free to not facilitate adoptions to gay couples. Nobody would then try to force them to provide adoption services, that would be ridiculous.

#21 If you think soy products cause homosexuality, you should go back to school and take some basic science and history classes. Homosexuality is perfectly common in nature and occurs in animals that have never seen a soybean. It has also been documented in human history for thousands of years, also among people who would never have seen a soybean.

#22 Sage, children are the losers if Catholic social services are allowed to discriminate against gay and lesbian couples, because it reduces the pool of potential loving parents who could adopt them, thus ensuring that children would not always have access to the couples who might be the best parents for them.

#23 Sage, saying it's not true doesn't make you correct. As I pointed out, by sheltering child abusers and moving them from place to place, the church helped ensure that priests were more able to be abusers than any other profession.

#24 Chris, no one is talking about forcing the church to behave in a certain way. If they don't want to facilitate adoptions to gay couples, they can abide by the law by simply n

27

Guga,

Rockall 28/01/2007 07:15:43

If #21 thinks soya bean products turn people into homosexuals, then he is implying that a very large number of Asians, who don't have access to things like fresh milk, are homosexuals. In other words, he is talking garbage. Presumably all the evil spirits he's on about, come from some bad whisky he's been drinking.

As for the Catholic Church's Human Rights argument, this will be a very interesting court case; regardless of which point of view you hold.

28

Faramars,

Iran 28/01/2007 07:16:50

Well done catholic church,
Homosexuality is really against human dignity. Religion and ethics are not fundamental sources of law in secular sicities but the law can not be ignorant to religion and ethics in this case . Child adaptation is related to religion and ethics . So church is a part of law in this case not above the law. Any law passed without this will be challenged too much.

29

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 07:21:22

17 Quite true, Thomas!

The Right in this country is always trying to say, for example, that Americans United for the Separation of Church and State is a liberal - or even 'far left' - organization, completely ignoring the fact that it is headed by an ordained minister and that AU works jointly with The Interfaith Alliance Foundation. (I had to correct someone on another thread who claimed that belief in the separation of church and state is a idea and a result of brainwashing!)

Perhaps in the UK you cannot legally separate church and state - or can you?

If a religious institution accepts no public support, can they avoid being forced to comply with some laws?
....

The problem here with pedophilia and the RC Church was not so much that pedophiles existed within the church (you can probably find some in nearly every large group), but rather the way the church sheltered them. When a priest got into trouble in his own parish, he was not handed over to the police, defrocked, or even disciplined within the church (and removed to a position where his duties did not allow him contact with children). He was simply transferred to another parish where no one knew of his past; thus he had more opportunity to find new victims - with the church's aid.

30

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 07:29:08

28 Faramars

Sorry, but ethics need not depend on religion, and religion does not guarantee ethics in its followers - or even its leaders.

31

Faramars,

Iran 28/01/2007 07:30:29

For wally in 21
Hi wally
We must realize that no holy religion is banning people from doing what is right. Many scholars and churches warned people about the alcohol but nobody heard . This bad phenomena today is putting generations in deep trouble with a lot of mental and physical diseases. Homosexuality is another ugly modern phenomena which unfortunately has become the main subject of many debates . For illegal and inhuman desires of guy couples minority, human dignity , morals are sacrificed . The church is right in this case .accepting the law by church is unacceptable and a dark point for Christianity and humanity .

32

Borderman,

Borders 28/01/2007 08:28:27

#25 "ban private and religious organisations from delivering public services of this type."

An interesting idea, but I wonder if it wouldn't eventually lead to problems in other areas. Say, for example, there is a charitable organisation that helps to find employment for disabled people. I think most would see this as a worthy cause. But should the organisation be able to refuse to help non-disabled people. After all, employment is a right of everyone. I doubt anyone would object, but what exactly is the difference between such a case and the current RCC adoption issue? (I'm sure someone will tell me.)

I wonder if this issue would be as contentious if the RC agencies only tried to place children with members of the RC church.

33

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 08:40:29

#2, yours is a particularly stupid comment.

Paedophilia is endemic throughout society.

Priests were responsible for 0.03% of cases. Are you not concernmed about the other 99.97%?

34

,

28/01/2007 08:42:17
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35

,

28/01/2007 08:46:36
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36

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 08:47:17

The Catholic Church persecuted women for over 2000 years. They murdered people whose ideals were different to their own, they attempted to squash the intellect of man by denying him the right to employ his science in an attempt to prove that the Sun was the centre of the universe. They banned their priests and nuns from taking part in the act of creation, they banned them from marrying. They murdered protestants by the thousands and they did it with joy in their hearts.

The Catholic Church has its foundations steeped in the blood of many millions of innocent people who dared to question their authority. They are without doubt the most corrupt and anti human organisation in the world and I am glad that they have decided to take on the government ..This will be their ultimate downfall, how ironic.

37

,

28/01/2007 08:48:37
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38

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 08:49:27

38, bad dose there, Media.

What's your view of the Church of Scotland?

39

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 08:50:15

31 Faramars

Homosexuality is hardly a modern phenomenon.

Go to:

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/greatgay.htm

You'll find a list of famous homosexuals, beginning with Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep of the 25th C B.C.E. (Egyptian overseers of manicurists in the royal palace), and running up to modern times.

Some you may already be familiar with:

David, 2nd King of Israel (10th C B.C.E.

Abu Nuwas (Arab Poet) born c. 757

Hafiz (Persian Poet) born c. 1319
(Mohammad Shans Od-Din Hafiz)

Mehmet II (Sultan of Turkey) born c. 1430

T.E. Lawrence (Brit. soldier, scholar) born 1888
(Lawrence of Arabia)

40

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 08:52:23

24, Chris, the Church does not teach persecution. That is your lie.

The Catholic Church is calling for DISCRIMINATION in the selection of parents for orphans.

That is not only right, it's vital.

41

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 08:53:50

37 Pax

Perhaps we will, following an article on that subject.

Here's a comment, though:

When John F. Kennedy was campaigning for president, it was repeatedly suggested that his first allegiance might (some said 'would') be to the pope, and not to the nation.

I don't recall Protestants of that day having to face parallel charges.

42

Cadgers,

Perth 28/01/2007 08:54:38

#19 That "fat king" wisnae ours and he didn't break from Rome very far, he just anglecised it so he could get his leg over once again.

43

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 08:55:06

sage 23,

in the UK, Priests have been responsible for ~0.03% of sex abuse cases against children.

Other groups are significantly higher.

44

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 08:56:13

Sorry, I should have made that 'primary allegiance'.

45

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 08:57:26

43, alec,

I'm sorry....I dont understand your point.

Please elaborate.

46

,

28/01/2007 09:00:49
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47

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 09:01:15

#42 Pax: Not sure if you read about it but only last week yet another baby was found lying on the pavement with its head cracked open lying on the side walk. She was a victim of a brain dead mother who wanted rid of her. That same day there was another infant found in a sewage pipe,she had been flushed down the toilet by her folks because she cried. THAT MY FRIEND, is the reality of the new South Africa within over populated African areas and it happens hourly throughout the year.

So when a loving couple who just happen to be gay come along and offer their love and support for a child with no hope, I for one support them.

Tell me this Pax: Would Jesus or any of his 12 man friends be able to adopt?

48

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:05:57

16, Thomas,

The Church is planning to show that Britain is acting outside of Human Rights laws. Do YOU have a problem with that?

Should make an interesting case, and will demand international attention.

Whilst we're in focus, we can tell the World about centuries of ANTI CATHOLIC Britain.

1/ The British Army going on to the streets of Derry in Jan 1972 and shooting scores of Catholics, who had the audacity to call for "one man one vote".

2/ No-one charged with these murders over 30 years later.

3/ The RUC's penchant for killing innocent Catholics.

4/ ANTI CATHOLIC legislation that is STILL curent on the UK Statute Book.

49

Steve here,

today 28/01/2007 09:07:24

it's a case of government forcing their PC will onto religion, who's next? I have nothing against the idea of homosexual parents. I don't see this as the RCC trying to victimise gays, i see this as government forcing their will onto an organisation with different beliefs. if I was told by a religious organisation i could not adopt because of my ginger hair, i would think they were a load bam pots and then i'd go on to a government agency. I don't want government regulating my beliefs, for the record i'm not RC...but why should that matter? the RCC is doing what they believe is in the best intrest of the child, i don't think their right, but i respect their opinion. one problem, two systems, move on a live with it.

50

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:07:29

Media 1, 49,

ah....more anti catholic stuff.

Didnt you see my question at #40?

What's your view of the Church of Scotland?

51

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:08:08

47 Pax

I was responding to you question as to whether those complaining about anti-gay discrimination also complain about anti-Catholic discrimination.

I was suggesting that we might, in a forum following an article on that subject.

I also made a comment on the existence of anti-Catholicism in my country (although it's lessening), and gave a prominant example from our history. Such attitudes can be traced back to Britain, as well as to other Protestant countries. (I didn't feel qualfied to comment on your history, and I assume you know your history better than I do, anyway.)

52

Borderman,

Borders 28/01/2007 09:08:16

#38

Exactly right, except you omit to mention that the Protestant churches in their shorter history have done their bit at keeping up the Christian tradition of butchery. 17th century Scotland put itself high on the international league of witch burning. About 4,500 innocents killed in this country at the hands of the pious. (Sourced from The Borders, by Alistair Moffat)

It's a disgusting show when you see Protestants and Catholics compete for the title of most holy.

53

steve 1511,

28/01/2007 09:08:47

what % of children seeking adoption pass through the catholic adoption agency.annyone know

54

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:09:43

steve 1511, apparently about 4%.

55

eric,

28/01/2007 09:10:22

The Rc Church is Scotlands Shame.

56

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:10:39

50 Pax

re: your fourth point: are those laws still enforced?

(That's a serious enquiry.)

57

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:12:46

54, alec,

thanks, i understand now.

the reality is that britains anti catholicism is widely known and well documented, but the majority here not only stay silent, but support anti catholic bigotry of the british state.

their rants about discrimination here are therefore highly hypocritical

58

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:13:22

alec 59,

yes, those laws are still current.

59

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:14:15

58

can you think of any other shames, eric, or is your bigotry one dimensional?

60

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:15:35

55,

tell us more about catholics and protestants competing for title of most holy.

61

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:16:55

52, steve,

good post.

britain has a long established record of anti catholic behaviour.

62

Bicknoller,

28/01/2007 09:18:46

Men and women have different attitudes to life.

I believe that the best environment to bring up a child is one where he/she absorbs aspects from both points of view.

For that reason I oppose adoption by single parents, and by same sex couples.

It is inevitable that a child is influenced by the opinions of its parents. If the Pope had been born in Iran he would probably have been an ayatollah.

Let's have children brought up in the way that they have been brought up for thousands of years, and throw these single issue homosexual and political campaigns in the rubbish bin where they belong.

63

Borderman,

Borders 28/01/2007 09:19:09

#63

Just stay tuned to these forums. You won't be disappointed.

64

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 09:22:58

PAX: No it was not more anti catholic stuff, take another look, it was about infants being brutally beaten by their parents. YOU FAILED TO ANSWER !

My view on the Church of Scotland! Another organised religious group who have much to answer for themselves. However, as we know, this article is about the CATHOLIC CHURCH and their anti human outlook on life.

I am still interested to know if Jesus and his 12 man friends would be permitted to adopt by the RC Church?

65

JG,

Fife 28/01/2007 09:23:10

That's all we need - another religious group turning people into martyrs!!!

66

walter,

28/01/2007 09:23:52

This case is typical of the society that we live in today of I want my rights and I don't care who's rights are denied them as long as I get mine.
If a person wishes to enter a shop but that shop does not have access for the disabled then they will complain that their rights are being denied them, it will not matter a toss to them that the same outlet has a shop 50m away with all the same product in it as the 1st shop and disabled access.
The smoking ban was the same instead of going down the rout of smoking and non smoking pubs that was not good enough for the anti smoking brigade they wished entry into every pub without people smoking.
The law already allows discrimination on religious grounds.
If a butcher was to slaughter animals in the way they are killed for halal/kosher meat they would be charged under the law for cruelty to animals.
If any one is caught on a motorbike without a helmet then they will be charged unless they are Sikh and wearing a turban.
If the church is going to direct a gay couple to an agency that will adopt to them I don't see what the problem is, except that is not good enough for the gay lobby.
They want to be able to adopt from any agency and if it means closing down agencies and depriving children of a good home that the agency may have got them then so be it as long as the gays have their rights.

67

Garry Otton,

Scotland 28/01/2007 09:25:06

...And Catholic propagandists directed by the west of Scotland Catholic Media office who write in Scotland's media will be forced to accurately present BOTH sides of the story.

I notice this piece was written by Eddie Barnes. Was he not once the editor of the Scottish Catholic Observer? His homophobic rhetoric was bad enough when he worked for The Scottish Daily Mail. Such 'journalists' have egg on their faces now Scotsman publications have opened the doors to the public to talk back.

If militant Catholics want to break the law. JAIL THEM!

68

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 28/01/2007 09:26:08

THE Catholic Church is to go to war over new legislation on rights for homosexuals, vowing to create "gay rights martyrs" if the laws are passed.

A small correction. Martyrs go to heaven. Where do GAY go???

69

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:26:28

# 48

I've posted this before:

I have a friend who, with his brother, was raised by a gay uncle and the uncle's partner.

Each of the brothers went on to university, entered professions, married, and fathered three children, (all of whom seem to be doing very well). Each of these brothers has now been married for several decades (and never divorced) and enjoy contimues success in their respective fields. Sounds like successful rearing to me.

By the way, they had no better idea of what was going on in their uncle's bedroom than most kids do about what goes on in their straight parents' bedroom.

My friend tells me that their main problem with their uncle being gay was that they had to hide it from most of the neighbors and both men's respective employers. There were no anti-discrimination laws in those days, and employers were able to discharge employees for almost any reason at all. (And before you ask: neither's employment had to do with children.)

70

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:28:40

61 Pax

Just to be clear: By 'current' you mean enforced?

71

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 28/01/2007 09:30:52

No 47
See if you die for your religion, you are a martyrs. If the church says and it cannot say that you are dying for the relgion.
The GAYS are therefore half in roast half in god knows wher but defilnately not heaven. They are not dying for the religion. They are dying to go to graves being GAY. No sex that God ordained means hell for sure, but if the church has the certificates to issue please may I have one although I am not gay. heaven here I come with the help of church. just two or three priests and MY ABODE IS HEAVEN?

72

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:31:07

72,

interesting post - thanks.

i'm not sure how it progresses the debate here though.....

these pages are riddled with numerous "i know a guy who......"

73

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 28/01/2007 09:32:26

no 56.
Gays are adults not kids who are in school. They are still learning the bilogy. Come out of your books of the Aaldin and Forty lamps

74

Steve here,

today 28/01/2007 09:33:42

#64, Pax, i know anti-catholic behaviour can be seen all over these posts, but some think it's fine to behave that way because it's so long been accepted as the norm. It's a sad state of affairs. They will be moderating these post before to long. Media 1..post #38 ???

75

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:33:45

69 walter

Although I believe that we need legislation to protect all people's basic rights from real bigots, there are certainly cases here, too, where that has gotten out of hand.

76

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:34:35

73,

i mean that the offensive Act is still current and enforceable.

if you seek a more precise answer, you'll need to ask a more precise question.

77

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:36:00

Garry 70,

thanks for you passionate support for the rule of law.

Should those who killed 14 on the streets of Derry in Jna 1972 be jailed too?

78

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:38:34

77 steve,

yes, thanks.

Media 1 has done a runner.

He is a one dimensional bigot.

_______________________________________

alec, as you're plainly deeply concerned about bigots, would you like to comment on some of the filthy anti catholic posts here.

eg media 1.

eg eric.

79

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:38:40

75 Pax

That's simple:

If a person or a couple are capable of rearing succesful children who go on to become successful adults who then raise successful children of their own, isn't that what is most important?

I made a personal case, but statistics seem so far to be bearing out the suggestion that gay couples are about as sccessful as parents as are straight parents.

80

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:40:20

66, borderman,

no examples then?

then why did you make such a stupid comment?

was it just bigotry?

81

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 09:44:53

OH SO suddenly its bigottry! lmfao

It cannot be that I see small children with no parents as a crying shame. It cannot be that I would rather see a child with nothing grow up with someting.

I get it now, its your way or no way! Speaking of bigotry lol

82

Steve here,

today 28/01/2007 09:45:18

Alec, if you are a RC in the UK, by law, you can never be a monarch...but that may be a good thing about being RC ;)

83

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:45:20

82, alec, my respinses inserted in capitals below.

If a person or a couple are capable of rearing succesful children who go on to become successful adults who then raise successful children of their own, isn't that what is most important? YES.

ORPHAN ANNIE (4) NEEDS A MUM AND DAD. SHE NEEDS PATERNAL AND MATERNAL INFLUENCES IN A LOVING FAMILY.

SHE DOESNT NEED (IMHO) RAYMOND & CHRISTOPHER AS HER "TWO DADS".

LET'S GIVE HER A CHANCE.

LET'S GIVE HERE IAN + DEBBIE, NOT RAYMOND AND CHRISTOPHER.

I made a personal case, but statistics seem so far to be bearing out the suggestion that gay couples are about as sccessful as parents as are straight parents. SHOW ME THE STATISTICS.

84

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 09:46:32

84, Media 1,

STILL frightened of my simple question.

Why?

85

James M,

Scotland 28/01/2007 09:46:57

I am glad that a Christian church in modern Britain finally has the guts to stand up for it's beliefs.
As a practising Scottish protestant I fully support the RC church on this issue.

86

Scaramouche,

28/01/2007 09:47:03

I'm not anti-Catholic. I just don't believe in ANY religion. It's past its sell-by date, by at least 150 years.

Human Rights go further than religion in protecting life, and it doesn't depend on what faith you are.

I think we'll be seeing the end of the Catholic church, closely followed by the other religions before we see the last gay person ever to be born on the planet!

And if the gays are SO upset by it all and STILL require a religious crutch, set up our OWN Holy and Apostolic Church of the Great Myth that is God.

Then you can adopt if want, because the the Court of Human Rights will be on your side!

There you go.

Sorted!

87

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:50:34

81 Pax

Bigot: An intolerant adherent to an opinion.

Anti-Catholocism is precisely as bad as any other prejudicial opinion.

Any given prejudice becomes more heinous when it is codified. That is unethical and immoral.

I have experienced prejudice from both Catholics and anti-Catholics. Neither felt good. Neither was less insulting. Neither was productive.

(Sorry, does that personal example go against the rules?)

88

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 09:52:39

Pax: Your question was answered at 67!

Try and keep up...

89

S'me,

28/01/2007 09:53:05

I think Pax is Gay... he wants it....

90

steve 1511,

28/01/2007 09:53:08

the r c agency in scotland placed approx 50 chiildren last year 12% of the total. i am sure the people adopting them wont care what agency they come from when the 2 r c offices close .or are the children only placed with r c families and if so why has this goverment tolerated this for so long
in allowing this adoption segregration

91

Johnny M,

28/01/2007 09:54:09

I'm not too keen on the idea of same sex parents. It's instinctive. Living in Brighton I have lots of gay friends and aquaintances,some of whom have kids from attempts to go straight. For starters, they're all out and out hedonists.... I think children need some sort of balance, but predictably all the right-on media have leapt at this chance to bleat on about "imaginary friends" and what a load of rubbish the bible is when their only alternative to christian morality is to let people do what the hell they want regardless of the consequences.
I would like to know one thing though - I'm not that knowledgable of the bible or catholic doctrine, but I can't remember anything in it being explicitly anti gay? Perhaps some rant about sodomites or something? Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

92

JG,

Fife 28/01/2007 09:54:24

#86 Pax
I agree that children (in an ideal world) should be brought up by a loving man and woman - preferably their own parents. In the event that they cannot be and are subsequently to be adopted, then the next best option is undoubtedly a loving man and woman who are (obviously) NOT their parents. What happens when there are no more "Ian + Debbies" to adopt? What do you do with the children then? Do you consider a gay couple? (well, obviously YOU don't) Or do you stick them in a children's home - with the proven track record some of those places have?

93

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:54:47

86 Pax

Bigot: an intolerant adherant of an opinion.

You did not make a personal case, you stated a personal belief.

94

de bono,

28/01/2007 09:54:54

It will be interesting if this comes to a test case - whether the right of freedom of conscience is being broken by forcing Catholic agencies to take on gay couples. Could open the door to a whole range of religious groups looking for exemptions for all sorts of things. Masons and women, Sharia Law and punishments . . . .

Common sense would seem to be that Catholic agencies do a very important job very well - as shown by external regulation inspection reports.

Gay couples have the option of other agencies who deal with 90% of cases.

Let the Church agencies refer on.

This gives choice.

Perhaps some parents who wish to give their child up for adoption would prefer to use a Catholic agency?

Gay rights? The well being of children in care is what matters. It would be a travesty if these services were disrupted because of a point of principle.

95

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 09:56:05

The bottom line is that the RCC is AGAINST the welfare of children.

They would rather see a child suffer with NO love than live in a homosexual home with love..

That says all I need to know about them!

96

de bono,

28/01/2007 09:57:15

It will be interesting if this comes to a test case - whether the right of freedom of conscience is being broken by forcing Catholic agencies to take on gay couples. Could open the door to a whole range of religious groups looking for exemptions for all sorts of things. Masons and women, Sharia Law and punishments . . . .

Common sense would seem to be that Catholic agencies do a very important job very well - as shown by external regulation inspection reports.

Gay couples have the option of other agencies who deal with 90% of cases.

Let the Church agencies refer on.

This gives choice.

Perhaps some parents who wish to give their child up for adoption would prefer to use a Catholic agency?

Gay rights? The well being of children in care is what matters. It would be a travesty if these services were disrupted because of a point of principle.

97

grannie,

glasgow 28/01/2007 09:57:43

THE LAW IS AN ASS!!!!!

98

Steve here,

today 28/01/2007 09:59:15

alex#90, you're making far too much sense, you will never make it in politics.

99

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 09:59:40

85 Steve

Good one!

Thanks for the example, and I agree with your comment on it. Of course, you can't be manarch if you aren't next in line, anyway - even if you are a member of the 'correct' religion.

Seriously, though, does anti-Catholic legislation affect educational opportunities, employment opportunities, etc?

100

Borderman,

Borders 28/01/2007 10:02:03

#83

In what way was my comment stupid? Are you saying Catholics and Protestants don't see themselves as more holy than each other. Are they both equally wrong, or are they both equally right? As both religions are based on a book filled with tales advocating violence and eternal punishment, when either group claims to be right, I find it pitiful. That's my opinion. I'm not forcing you to agree. What kind of bigotry is that?

101

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:02:31

Jmaes 88, good, thanks.

catholics and Protestants are long reconciled in Scotland.

The real bigots these days are not Islamics etc, but intolerant secularists.

102

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:06:12

89, fair enough, but do you know that the ctaholic Church is the biggest in the world with over 1000 million members?

103

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:06:34

89, fair enough, but do you know that the Catholic Church is the biggest in the world with over 1000 million members?

104

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 10:06:51

101 Another good one. [I am getting jealous...]

Same to you Steve!

I have never wanted to go into politics, as I have never wanted to be a lawyer, and they make up the vast majority of our legislature.

My main handicap would be my rather faulty memory: I would never be able to keep track of which lies I told to whom.

105

Jimmy Deuchars,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 10:07:11

What two consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own home is no-bodies business.
Our concern is for the children's welfare. Being adopted by single people and same sex people must open the doors for paedophile rings to move in.
Children must have the chance of a balanced male/female adoption.

106

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:07:38

90, alec, can I ask you again, please:

alec, as you're plainly deeply concerned about bigots, would you like to comment on some of the filthy anti catholic posts here.

eg media 1.

eg eric.

107

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:10:48

67, is that it?

No more "insights" to the Church of Scotland and it's history?

108

de bono,

28/01/2007 10:12:30

The Catholic Church is in a difficult position here - on the one hand there is an agressive and vociferous gay lobby who have punched above their weight in lots of arenas (arts, funding for services for gay men, politics, media) and who are pursuing a point of principle - equality is equality - if I want to adopt a child then why should my sexuality matter?

On the other hand the Church has a vision of family and wants to promote a society in which marriage is supported and promoted. The Church believes that children are best nurtured in an environment in which the natural relationships and role models of heterosexual marriage and commitment are present.

In practice, the Church has increasingly moved towards a compassionate and less reactionary postion on homosexuality - the person is what matters - put judgement aside etc. Although the hierarchy will always stick to the doctrine that homosexuality is not a perfect state.


Of course gay couples can nurture, care and educate children in a family setting.

Gay couples will be as varied as heterosexual couples but to put a child into such a particular environment and scene without them having any choice, well . . . .

the good work of the Church should not be disrupted by a lobby group who have other options - if they do this, it amounts to an attack on a poinft of principle - with negative effects on services that do well to look after children.

Gay people can already adopt. Leave the Church to do a good job.

109

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:12:34

103,

it's stupid because 10 it's wrong, and 2) you've alreadty admitted you cannot substantiate it.

110

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 10:13:34

Pax: Its members are mainly from South America, which is where the Vatican will need to relocate to following the massive anti RCC campaign which is to follow in the next 5 years.

Religion is on the way out and common sense on the way in..Maybe you should look at that house in La Paz!

111

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 10:14:17

31 Faramars, calling homosexuality "another ugly modern phenomena" is a flat lie in denial of thousands of years of history. Try googling for "tomb of the two manicurists", to see an ancient egyptian tomb of a gay couple who had a high status position in their society. Throughout the ancient world, gay couples could marry. Today's heterosexual wedding ceremony is loosely modeled on a homosexual union ceremony from fourth century Crete, which introduced the radical new wedding concepts of both parties agreeing to the union, the friends and famiies having a ceremonial opportunity to object to the union, "bridal shower" gifts, and the honeymoon. There was even a well documented Christian ceremony for the union of two men, and ample evidence to show that the people of the time clearly and unambiguously viewed it as being like a wedding, not like a friendship.

32 Rulesbutnotrulers, your claims that a home headed by a gay couple is "second best at best" is also flatly false. There is ample research on the children of gay couples showing that gay couples are not only not worse parents than heterosexual couples, but that in fact on average gay couples who parent tend to be superior parents, because gay couples have no unwanted "oops" babies. And, I'd have a lot more confidence that the catholic church was trying to clean up its mess if they weren't so loudly trying to blame it on innocent gay and lesbian people.

#35 media watch, "politically correct" means to comply with the prevailing politics of the time. As it's the right wing religious nuts running the world at the moment, wouldn't "politically correct" be the anti-gay crowd? If so, I'm sick of them too...

#36 Pax Vabascam, you seem to be in love with repeating the phrase "fornicating homosexuals." What about all the fornicating heterosexuals who are adopting children? What's the difference what the genders of the fornic

112

radical pink,

fife 28/01/2007 10:14:35

I think the Catholic Church has put their neighbours as well as their own two feet in it with equal measures of conceit and hypocrisy, who are they to challenge the rights of 'gay' couples to adopt children. I can’t see what’s wrong with ‘gay’ couples openly adopting children.

This is a reasoned sojourn to meet the needs of an enlightened and ever changing society and is far more acceptable than the continued denial that women are less than equal according to the over played psalm of Catholic and many other less than enlightened religious dictums!

Perhaps I’m daft but I absolutely fail to comprehend the outrage of the Catholic Church, when it houses more gay priests than any other religious organisation I know of. It seems to me the Catholic Church could spend its time more profitably by doing less to protect the jobs and reputations of ‘priestly’ child sex offender’s, by immediately rushing to the rescue and protection of child victims.

Albeit that’s another story and once again the importance of finding the right parents for orphaned and or damaged children is clouded by ridiculous argument and prejudice. If the Catholic Church wants to sulk, stick its bottom lip out and close down its adoption agencies...well let it!

I’m sure when the great J.C. said ‘suffer the little children to come unto me’ he didn’t say forget if you’re ‘gay’ nor I’m sure did he, have a predilection for invented prejudice and religions bigotry.

113

Steve here,

today 28/01/2007 10:14:54

it's time for me to go and play with my wee son on my day off, i wish the same for all kids and people that want to be parents...on matter who they are.

114

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:15:52

alec 102,

an earlier post gave some examples of Britain's anti catholic effort.

Some murders, some legislation.

115

,

28/01/2007 10:16:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 323167, Article id was mapped to record!
116

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 10:16:58

PAX CALLING PAX! Are you there PAX..

Let me force your attention to the first sentence of this story..It reads as follows "THE Catholic Church is to go to war over new legislation on rights for homosexuals, vowing to create "gay rights martyrs" if the laws are passed.

Get the Church of Scotland out of your wee head, this is ALL about the RCC..

117

tommy,

belfast 28/01/2007 10:17:57

Personally-I think that this is a matter of trust,If my wife and I were Roman Catholic and were both killed in a car crash I would like to think that our children would be adopted by some nice Catholic couple and brought up with awareness of others predilections and a Christian attitude (like Jesus would have) towards all life
The thought of a government trying to legislate that my children could be brought up with someone that I would consider as totally unacceptable is a non starter and is indicative of the erosion of basic human rights -- MINE

118

de bono,

28/01/2007 10:20:07

media, maybe you should go to tell all the religious people in the world how stupidly mislead they all are . . . .

That would be great service to the world.

All the mothers and fathers who work day in day out all over the world practising the virtues that are deepened through religious practice and strengthened in church communities . .

They are all wrong!

Wow!

What is /common sense' media? Neo liberal individualistic capitalist secularism that is driving people to despair and eating up all the world's resources?

Don't you think that religious wisdom has anything to offer?

Or are we all sadly mislead?

Let me know

119

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 10:20:20

100

Grannie, [Please don't take this as sarcasm; it isn't meant to be]:

"The law is an ass!" is usually a self-evident statement!

120

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:21:51

bizarre post, pink 115,

the catholic church didnt challenge the right of homos to adopt!

if you cant see what's wrong with homos adopting children - fair enough! i dont want to impose my views on you.

but others are imposing their views on me - IN LEGISLATION.

Your second para makes even less sense.

And your third para is extremely ignorant.

As for JC, he was against fornication and fornicators. So, if his followers dont want to hand children over to fornicators, they abide by his teaching.

121

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:24:07

119, the article is about the Church and adoption.

YOU - media - chose to make a wide ranging attack on the Church, and that was far beyond this story.

But, tyou seem reluctant to make the same attacks on other Churches.

Why?

122

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:25:46

113,

nonsense again.

the church has over 1000 million members, and is well represented in all continents.

123

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:27:31

alec, i've asked you a few times about the filthy, anti catholic posts and posters here.

forgive me if i've missed your answer, but....

i dont see your condemnation of THEIR bigotry.

124

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:28:49

media,

still no detailed assessment of the failings of the church of scotland.

strange......so much anger and detail about the wrongs of the catholic church.

why?

125

de bono,

28/01/2007 10:30:03

Hello again media.

Would you be happier if the Catholic Church was banned entirely?

You would like to see its demise. Why?

Don't you know about all of the many good things the Church provides for people everyday in every corner of the world.

Why do you think the Catholic churhc should be destroyed?

I'm really interested in what your thoughts are.

I think that the good things in the Church should be retained and supported. Don't you?

126

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:30:27

thomas 114,

heterosexuals are subject to the same scrutiny by the church.

if they are fornicating heterosexuals they will not be able to adopt via the church.

127

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 10:31:10

De Bono: So what your saying is that I should read my children the old testament, thus brain washing them into believing that they were created by a god who murdered first born Egyptian babies, sent a swarm of locusts to eat Egyptina crops in the single largest genocidal act in the history of mankind. I should also read them the story of Abraham and the son he was asked to sacrifice on a mountain top only to be told it was a joke. You DE BONO may wish to indoctrinate your children and strike fear of a vengeful god into them, I chose rather to teach them respect for their elders, pride in themselves and hope that they grow up to be kind and compassionate people. Should they wish to turn to organised religion later in life I will be at peace knowing that I DID NOT force them into it.

128

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 10:31:39

48, come to the US and ask any state adoption official in any state where gay people are legally allowed to adopt, and they will tell you that gay couples make excellent parents and often choose to be parents to the children that other couples don't want - the sick ones, the handicapped ones, the deformed ones. In states that have recently considered banning gay couples from adopting, it was the state's child welfare officials who stood up and loudly spoke out against such a ban, and made it quite clear that without gay and lesbian couples to act as foster parents (temporary parents for children who have not been adopted yet) and adoptive parents, they would have to start opening orphanages. Now tell me again how a civilized society would want these children to suffer a parentless life rather than having a loving family, just because that loving family happen to be two adults of the same gender?

50, I don't believe that Britain is acting out of human rights laws in this regard: to believe so would require me to believe that human rights laws give just anyone the *right* to provide adoption services to the public, and on any grounds they may choose. That's nonsense. The church isn't being forced to do anything against its religion. It can simply stop providing adoption services, and continue to live within the bounds of its chosen bigotry. So yes, I *do* have a problem with church's plan to break the law in this manner. In the US an organization publically announcing its intent to break the law is called "conspiracy to commit a crime" and is punishable with jail time.

52 Steve here, your claim that anyone is "forcing" anything onto the church is abject nonsense. The church is entirely able to maintain its bigoted stance within the bounds of the law. All they have to do is stop providing adoption services. They faced exactly the same anti-discrimination laws in Massachusetts, they stopped providing the services, the church got to con

129

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:32:12

thomas 114,

the church seeks a loving family in which to place these children. a family with decency, love, respect, and affection.

seems like common sense to me.

130

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 10:32:24

Pax: cmon you, keep up! Jeezo, 119 answered that for you...cmon now dude

131

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:36:18

thomas 131,

let's let the courts decide re britain human rights position.

the church's position here is not bigotry, it's discrimination.

commendable discrimination in a quest to find appropriate parents for a child.

_________________________________________

your eloquent attack on the 2bigotry" of the church is interesting, and wrong.

what's your view of anti catholic bigotry on these pages, thomas?

nothing to say about THAT bigotry?

132

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:38:07

133

media, i've seen all your posts, and your evasions.

Angry, eloquent, detailed, widespread attack on the Catholic Church.....but little to say on the Church of Scot?

Why?

Bigotry?

133

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:39:39

media 1,

why dont you do YOUR thing, and I'll do mine?

Tolerance, eh?

STOP your bigotry, media.

134

sage,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 10:40:53

38 There is no need to go overboard because you had a boring ,boring draw yesterday.if you spend £5M on land purchase you have to find the money from somewhere where ??

135

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 10:41:56

and anti catholic britain must butt out, and stop it's pc madness.

angry about discrimination?

repeal anti catholic laws.

imprison those who savagely murdered catholics in northern ireland.

136

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 10:45:08

Pax: Once again, the article in question, you know the one we are all debating is about the Catholic Church NOT the church of scotland. I went to a Catholic school so the church of scotland is not an organisation I am that familiar with. Nevertheless, if this article was about their anti human stance on children with no family I would attack them with the same venom.

137

de bono,

28/01/2007 10:47:28

media, you have not answered my questions in the slightest.

It's true that the Old Testament is a strange book in many respects - written by people thousands of years ago as their understanding of the univese developed - trying to figure out morality and the origins of things - the nature of God etc. There are some very beautiful parts in the Old Testament and also a lot of dramatic stories about the judgement of God on evil doers. It reflects the understandings of people in these tribal societies as they developed.

The Christian message is that no one people are the 'Chosen People' - rigths and justice and compassion are everyone's.

Modern secular society fails the poorest and most vulnerable in many repsects and the bulk of what the Church does worldwide is to promote justice.

Can you answer my questions please?

You think that Catholic children are taught about

138

de bono,

28/01/2007 10:48:29

ignore last half finished sentence

139

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 10:50:48

65 Bicknoller, so I suppose you would support taking children away from divorced couples, or from single parents in cases where the other parent died? You're being ridiculous. There is absolutely no research whatsoever published in any peer reviewed journal showing that a two parent (of one gender) household is any less healthy for a child than a two parent (of two genders) household, while there *is* published research showing that the only problems that children of gay and lesbian couples face that other children don't is the bigotry of other people.

69 walter, you wrote "If the church is going to direct a gay couple to an agency that will adopt to them I don't see what the problem is, except that is not good enough for the gay lobby." Clearly you haven't bothered thinking about the well being of the children that the discriminatory adoption agency is supposed to be trying to help. Those children will be denied the opportunity to have the parents who might have been the best parents for them, and will instead only be presented with the opportunity to be potentially adopted by those parents who the discriminatory organization finds suitable based on its own bigoted criteria, who may or may not be as good parents as those who were turned away. By allowing discrimination by adoption agencies, you would not be merely inconveniencing gay couples who would have to go elsewhere, but you would be permanently damaging the lives of innocent children who would be placed with parents who weren't the best parents for them who came along.

71, to the spa of course.

74, you wrote "See if you die for your religion, you are a martyrs." My religion, and my Christian ministers, say that gay people are beloved to God just like everyone else, and that it is my duty to love gay and heterosexual people alike. If I die for this belief, doesn't that make me a martyr by your definition? Then where would I go?

86 Pax Vabascam, God knows that a g

140

VFC,

London 28/01/2007 10:51:06

Presently it is legal for gay couples to adopt.
It is legal for government approved adoption agencies to select.
Is it really impossible for Labour to introduce new legislation and keep both of these rights?

VFC. Vote for Change.
Any party except Labour.

141

de bono,

28/01/2007 10:52:34

media - you display the phenomenon of 'talking past people' - i.e. you deliver your message and take nothing on.

You have answered NONE of the specific questions put to you. What' the point of posting comments when you are not open to taking on new information, ideas, views?

Enage with the questions media, or are you here to give us a Sunday Lecture?

142

Calum Crubag,

28/01/2007 10:54:04

Correct me if i am wrong but isn't one of the main tenets of the Protestant Church that the Pope is the antichrist and that the Catholic church are guilty of idolotry? As far as i'm aware, both idolotry and homosexuality are forbidden by the Bible.

Therefore, should discrimation by the Presbyterian churches and the Orange Order be permitted on faith grounds?

I detest all bigotry and think the Bible and faith cannot be used to form modern law. If so, should we still be stoning adulterers to death? Should we still burn "bulls on the altar of the Lord"? etc etc...

Again, if the morons in the Orange Order claim opposition of the Catholic church as part of their Protestant faith, and quote the Bible to support them, should their discrimination and hatred of Catholics be permitted?

143

de bono,

28/01/2007 10:55:30

Thomas, as you know, gay couples can already legally adopt.

4% of adoptions in Scotland go to gay couples.

It's happening.

What is wrong with a Catholic agency continuing to run adoption agencies for heterosexual couples. If a gay couple don't know this, they can be referred on to another agency.

What is the problem with that for you?

144

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 10:57:15

109, 117 Pax

I made a comment in 90

You want me to take sides in your war with eric and media 1.

My reply was more specific than yours regarding legislation.

In post #50 you mentioned Derry and the the fact that there were no prosecutions. Heinous, to be sure, but 30 years ago and not relevant to my questions about whether anti-Catholic legislation is actually enforced today, and how it affects Catholics in their daily lives. RUC activity was disgusting, but so was Sinn Fein's. (I am not taking sides in that one.) I thought that was being worked out, although progress may be bumpy, to say the least.

Both the Derry raids and the RUC killings are government policy, carried out by government agents (military and police).

I was asking about civil law, and how it does or does not affect Catholics in Britain as a whole, not solely Northern Ireland. The long history of 'the troubles' is lengthy enough and convoluted enough to make one's eyes cross.

In your fourth point, all you said was that anti-Catholic legislation is still on the books, later that it was enforceable. I still don't have any examples of what this anti-Catholic legislation is, and no examples of how it is enforced today. Sorry, there is no way to ask a specific question about such a general (even vague) statement.

If there was something more specific posted, sorry, I missed it. I was just looking through the posts again, and that was what caused the delay.

145

alicia,

28/01/2007 10:57:44

75 - you consider it irrelevant because it goes against the argument by many posters here that gay parents are unsuitable and will affect the children. Clearly, you don't want to see anything that conflicts with that idea.

If the Catholic church wish to pursue an action that is illegal then you need to question what their motive is, it's clearly going against what is in the best interests of the child and is a political move to try to reassert their right to be able to discriminate.

By the same definition, the assertion of many posters here that the Catholic church's actions will be in the best interests of the child is wrong, it is a political move.

146

de bono,

28/01/2007 11:00:37

Alicia -

Don't you think that there are sincere and well meaning people in the Church and in their agencies working with families?

Or are they all cynics? what do you think?

147

Borderman,

Borders 28/01/2007 11:03:39

#112

Pax, think more than a few seconds before you type off a reply to this one.

In my original post to which you replied, I balanced out Media 1's review of the RC church's history of violence with some good old Protestant violence. I then made a remark about Protestants and Catholics competing for holiness honours. You asked for examples, and I honestly thought you were joking. Just go to a football stadium or two on a Saturday to witness people screaming about how it's better to be a tim/billie than a billie/tim. Or don't they count?

In a number of posts, you talk of anti-catholic discrimination in this country. But you also say, "catholics and Protestants are long reconciled in Scotland.
The real bigots these days are not Islamics etc, but intolerant secularists." (You're quick off the mark with the "bigot" word.) So could you clear this up for me? Are you saying the source of anti-catholic discrimination is "secularist"? And do you also mean that Christians other that Catholics are not a target of this discrimination?

148

de bono,

28/01/2007 11:06:33

Alex in Chicago - here's one example:

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/articl...

There are other positions other than monarch that a Catholic can't occupy - high postions in the armed forces for example.

149

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 11:09:45

DeBono: I attended a Catholic school in Glasgow when I was younger and it made me detest organised religion.

I agree that the church does good deeds, but then so do school teachers, nurses and doctors without indoctrination. The RCC is corrupt beyond the realms of comprehension. Does she stand alone? Probably not, but then this article is not about any other religious organisation, its about the RCC.

I agree that homosexuality is not the norm, but we need to move on. We need to accept that young children with no future and no hope would be better off with a gay couple than with no love at all. I know a young man who is now 21 years old. His name is Mathew and he was found in a skip by a homeless person aged 7 months. He was taken into care and was passed on from one home to the next. He was adopted by a young couple when he was 3, beaten and starved he would find his way back to another series of homes until one day he was adopted by a man and wife from Johannesburg. He was at last free from the hell he had always known, he had love, he had safety, he had a home with a brother and a sister. His brother, a loving and compassionate person who was brought up in a loving and caring household is gay. His name is Cameron and he hopes to adopt one day, he currently works for a child protection agency and has always been touched by his half brothers story. Just last week he rescued a discarded baby from a sewage pipe and was so traumatised by the incident he required counselling. He dedicates his life to saving abonded kids and lives with his partner who just happens to be a doctor.

They want to adopt, they are good people, loving people and they detest the way in which abonded children are dealt with. They have put their own money into building over 20 shelters for babies with no homes and receive almost no government backing. AND now the RCC is telling them they are not fit for adoption.

Well guess what? The RCC can go to hell...

150

VFC,

London 28/01/2007 11:10:10

Labour led us into an illegal war.
Now they want to make something that is legal, illegal.

VFC. Vote For Change.

151

JG,

Fife 28/01/2007 11:12:29

#151 de bono
Even accepting that the monarch doesn't have the same powers as they did in the past, and is merely a figurehead, would there not be a bit of a conflict of interests in the following scenario; just say that some time in the future a king/queen married a Catholic and the children were brought up as Catholics. One of these children would become the king/queen thereafter and the conflict would be that they are head of the Church of England.

152

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 11:12:58

94 Johnny, I'm sorry your gay friends are "all out and out hedonists." Perhaps you need some new gay friends. All the gay people I know have quiet lives with ordinary jobs and ordinary rent or mortgage payments and so on, just like everyone else. As for your question about the bible, there's some stuff in the old testament which can be interpreted as being opposed to homosexuality. However, Jesus said precisely nothing on the subject.

97 de bono, you're failing to consider the welfare of the children being placed by catholic adoption services, who are not being offered the opportunity of the larger pool of qualified potential parents that they would receive if they were being placed by an adoption agency that didn't discriminate based on its religious beliefs.

105, so why are they having such a hard time finding enough priests?

108, that's disgusting and a lie. Gay parents are not an opening for pedophiles. Gay men are indeed less likely to be pedophiles than straight men. If you want to make such disgusting statements about gay people, you'd better be able to back them up with proof.

111 de bono, "Gay people can already adopt." Yes, but parentless children can not decide for themselves to have their adoption handled by an organization which will find for them the best qualified parents, rather than merely a set of parents who meet the organization's religious agenda.

120 tommy, you don't own your child. There's only one person whose rights would matter if because of a terrible accident your child was to be placed for adoption, and that would be your child's rights. You don't have a right to dictate every facet of your child's life. You already have to deal with realities such as that if you believe the earth is flat, you don't have the right to prevent everyone from ever teaching your child that it's round. If you don't like the idea that your child could be placed with a family of a religion different than yours

153

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 11:16:05

114 Thomas

re: your response to 31 Faramars: those two Egyptian manicurists are the first named in the link I gave in my post #41. Interesting list, that.

Let's face it, there are few organized religions that don't discriminate to some extent.

154

de bono,

28/01/2007 11:18:50

Borderman - mind if I put in my penny's worth?

The Christian Churches have a shameful history in some respects (not all - take the quakers for example who work for peace).

But the level and scale of violence is a tiny fraction of the violence of secular nation states in the pursuit of power. That's pretty clear.

Sometimes Church's have aligned themselves with secular powers for political gain.

Sometimes secular powers have used religious justification for invasions, wars, genocide.

It has always been that way and still is (Bush, Saudi Arabia, Iran . . . )

The bigotry on the terraces is an example of 'complementary opposition' whereby one community highlights what it percieves to be the bad characteristics of a rival community in order to stress its own good characteristics. Pretty basic tribal stuff.

Religion is increasingly a scape goat - the crimes of teh Church make this easy - as does the triumphalism of the Catholic Church.

However, at a communit level, the truths of love, compassion, justice, peace etc. are what make the Churches continue to be a source of inspiration for many people.

Secularism is often empty - ends up being consumerism and lonely individualism.

155

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 11:19:50

151

Thank you de bono!

I had just entered doing a quick search on the topic into my 'research to be done' notebook. I had given up hope of getting specific replies here. (Of course, I am not suggesting that anyone is obliged to respond.)

156

Pernickity,

28/01/2007 11:21:18

All the Catholic Church will achieve by this is to undermine its own support and the priveliged position it has regarding state schooling and ensure that Scotland moves to a system of completely secular education sooner rather than later. That is probably a good thing.

157

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 11:22:47

145 Calum

You left out:

We'd still be burning witches, selling our daughters, and bringing unruly children (or was it just sons?) into the town square to be stoned.

Lots of other goodies in Leviticus.

158

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 11:27:19

128 de bono, "Don't you know about all of the many good things the Church provides for people everyday in every corner of the world" No, I don't. I know on the other hand that they were telling people with AIDS in Africa that condoms cause disease, that they refuse contraception to overpopulated nations (and, for that matter, overpopulated families), that they'd rather see women die than permit legalized abortion, and that they have fought against laws protecting the rights and safety of gay people throughout the world. It doesn't seem a very compassionate record to me.

129, I sincerely doubt it. I don't believe you're going to seriously claim that the church inquires into the bedroom habits of heterosexual prospective parents. (And if it does, that's just wrong.) Moreover, the church is dismissing gay and lesbian prospective parents out of hand - obviously it doesn't do that to heterosexual prospective parents. So, don't try to claim to me that the church treats everyone equally.

132, "the church seeks a loving family in which to place these children. a family with decency, love, respect, and affection. seems like common sense to me." Seems like the households of most of the gay couples I know, to me.

134 pax, "what's your view of anti catholic bigotry on these pages, thomas? nothing to say about THAT bigotry?" Nobody asked me. My view is that as the church sows, so is it reaping. While the church seeks to oppress people throughout the world for the horrific crime of not agreeing with the church about how to live their lives, it is going to have many vocal detractors and people are going to continue to try to fight against the church. If the church wants to be treated with respect, perhaps it could try treating others with respect, instead of trying to oppress whatever it disapproves of and angrily demanding exemptions to the anti-discrimination laws which codify the moral values of the societies in which the churc

159

Faramars,

Iran 28/01/2007 11:28:34

For Thomas Farrell in 114 & Alec in Chicago 41
Hi Thomas & Alec
You can not build a general rule upon a few exceptional cases .Homosexuality is reported only in less than a handful of cases in thousands of years of history . it was not spread like today .irrespective of these cases homosexuality is really a new phenomena .

160

de bono,

28/01/2007 11:30:24

media and thomas - thanks for your replies.

OK - agreed - gay couples can offer compassion and care in a family setting to children who need this. Children who go into residential care tend not to do well - a high proportion become homeless and have mental health problems as a result of a lack of loving attention in their developmental years.

Adoption is a good thing if the right parents can be found.

About 4% of adopting parents are gay couples.

Adoption agencies who deal with gay couples as well as heterosexual couples make up 90% of the whole.

Catholic agencies have been shown to be very succesful in dealing with 'hard to place' children (I could try to find the link to give this info - I'm not making it up).

If a gay couple wishes to register with a Catholic agency they are told that they will not be taken on for assessment but are sign posted to the other agencies.

Children referred to Catholic agencies are only ever placed in heterosexual settings.

Thomas, do you think that these children are disadvantaged? If so, why? Is there any evidence that this is the case?

Media - I'm glad you are moderating your views a bit. You seem angry and I'm sure that there are good reasons for this - but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

161

Sixupman,

Bridgwater 28/01/2007 11:31:03

1. The Catholic Church is based primarily on the New Testament, not the 'Old' - 'chalk & cheese'.

2. Robert Mugabe stated that Blair's Government is full of homosexuals - I might add 'parliament and politics.

3. "Who would deny an orphan a home based on a loving relationship" - no one! 'Who would deny an orphan a home based upon aberrant sexual practice' [for want of a more expressive term] - most people!

4. Homosexuals have infiltrated The Church, best demonstrated in the USA where it has been brought to its knees. Not only in respect of the legal damages incurred by the offending clergy [in the main against post-pubescant males and some females] by by plundering parish finances on a garguant scale and using the same to finance their flamboyant lifestyles and condominiums.

5. Protection of homosexual miscreants in The Church appears to be by coteries of likeminded in both the local hierarchies and Vatican.

6. Scotland has its on secret coterie of miscreant clergy.

I am RC.

162

Sixupman,

Bridgwater 28/01/2007 11:32:15

Apologies for 'typos'.

163

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 11:34:47

146 de bono, "What is wrong with a Catholic agency continuing to run adoption agencies for heterosexual couples. If a gay couple don't know this, they can be referred on to another agency. What is the problem with that for you?" The problem with that is that the children don't get to choose. They get placed with a more limited pool of parents, who may not be the best parents for them, because the church has imposed its own more limiting criteria on who they will allow to adopt a child. In the US, adoption is all about the rights of the *child*, and the child's right is to be adopted by the parents who are best for that child personally. So, I would view it as a violation of the child's rights to be placed for adoption by an agency that discriminates against qualified parents merely on the basis of their being of the same gender.

156 Alec, "Let's face it, there are few organized religions that don't discriminate to some extent." Except the Unitarian Universalists. They'll let you believe anything. There's a joke, What does a unitarian universalist do if you make them angry? They burn a question mark on your lawn. (For the record, this joke was taught to me by a unitarian universalist.)

164

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 11:35:07

#120 tommy

I went to Catholic grammar school - but that was a long time ago. So, you have made me curious: Isn't that still what god-parents are for?

I don't know the system there:

Can't the people there set up wills, trusts, etc, that ensure your children will go to a specific person/couple or a particular sort of household?

What would ensure that your (hypothetically) newly-orphaned children would end up in a Catholic agency?

Do only the orphans of Catholic people end up in Catholic agencies?

165

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 11:36:45

De Bono: Whilst there is many good people working within the catholic church I just feel that that hierachy are like a terminal disease who do nothing but pollute the world with one dimensional ancient rhetoric. It is 2007 and its time to grow up and leave the Jesus stories where they belong..(In the past)

Speaking of Jesus, a single man who spent his life with his 12 man friends. Would the RCC permit him to adopt?

166

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 11:39:52

# 162 Faramars

What percentage of people are referred to personally in history?

All I said was that homosexuality is hardly a modern phenomenon.

Also, it is difficult to determine, even today, the exact percentage of any population that is gay, because they are so widely disaproved of.

On what do you base your belief that homosexuality is immoral?

167

de bono,

28/01/2007 11:40:25

Thomas - you are not aware of the good work that the Catholic Church does?

The Catholic Church is actually the biggest single provider of social projects in the world. Alot of experise in promoting well being and justice. There's a long history of campaigning on very important issues - third world debt, fair trade, peace, pharmaceutics for por countries, nuclear disarmament, capital punishment . . .

If you open your mind you'll find that it's not as black and white as you are making out for your own ends.

You give the AIDS example. That could be debated. Catholic Social teaching is such that abstinence and fidelity are seen as the way foward in combating the spread of HIV. People make choices, the Church has a view and assists in its way - education and promoting fidelity. Other agencies provide plane loads of condoms and sexual education. The spread of AIDS has still been relentless in places where these approaches are in full flow. No better.

Can we stop demonising good people on the basis of their faith?

168

The laird.,

leadhills 28/01/2007 11:43:51

I am glad that the catholic church has been the first to have the guts to stand up for morality and dignity of which is in short supply in this country especialy under this looney new labour and there looney policies Its quite obvious the looney,s are running the asylum, I feel very sorry for all the young children today of whom may have to live life for another 40 or 50 yr,s under sutch pathetic unionist parties who do everything in there power to mess up the majority of decent peoples lives and dont put the interests of the honest tax payer. this crap like prison voting is nothing to do with human rights its about fat cat lawer,s milking the gravy train. Another money maker for cartel. People should bring in a new law that no lawyers or any one in the legal profession should be allowed to be a member of parliament and that would cancel all the job,s for the boy,s sinario.

169

Madwummin,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 11:43:56

These posts have been a revelation to the world. Showing how much Catholics are hated and reviled in this small country of ours. And NOT by protestants or other people of faith but by a vicious lsecular liberal sect and espacially by the gay community. And what for ?
For having the temerity to say NO !
Jack McConnell - DON'T DARE hold another meeting with Celtic or Rangers about Sectarianism. A trained chimp could look at these posts and see where the sectarianism is coming from.
Would all these gay people who are screaming about their rights take mine from me ? Eh? in a heartbeat.
BUT WOULD THEY WALK INTO A KOSHER OR HALAL BUTCHER SHOP AND DEMAND TO BE SOLD PORK?
It would appear that they are going to do just that.
Or maybe they don't feel as much antipathy towards Jews and Moslems. They should . Check out what the Koran and the Torah says about homosexuality.
Actually it might take a while for the first case to gat to the European Court on Human Rights on gay adoption. It is going to be in a big queue behind all the parents using Article 9 to prevent their kids being taught about homosexuality in schools. Squeal, insult and stamp your feet all you want. The SILENT MAJORITY are stirring. Martyrs - I think not!
Winners more like.

170

Spellbound,

london 28/01/2007 11:45:24

#16 - "So now the catholic church is openly plotting to become a criminal organization by encouraging its people to break the law... doesn't anyone have a problem with this?"


Well apparently you can do what you like as long as its in the name of religion. People have died, been discriminated, abuse and hounded but as long as you say its in the name of religion, thats all that seems to matter.

Really, the churches need to keep their noses in the bibles and leave things like rehoming children to the authorities and companies who are not brainwashing children to their crazy ways of thinking.

They will often say that gay couples will brainwash their children into being gay, but living with gay folk doesnt make you any more gay than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Whats wrong with a child being raised in a loving environment?? The kids were more than likely created by straight people and that clearly didn't go so well, so why not let a child be raised by a couple who really want a child?!? What they do in their bedroom really doesn't make the blindest bit of difference and if that child is then raised to be tolerant of other beliefs, lifestyles etc, then where is the harm?

Many years ago, people of colour where hounded and persecuted by the church and now everyone agrees that is out of order, its only a matter of time before people stop hounding others because of their sexuality, you have as much choice in it as what colour your skin is, so get over it, no ones forcing you to watch!

Besides, how often do we hear of preists etc 'interferring' with the choir boys, to me, thats a much bigger problem than a same sex couple raising a child. Maybe the church should get their own house in order before sticking their noses into others!!

171

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 11:48:11

164 Sixupman

point # 4 Thsoe miscreants weren't homosexuals - they were pedophiles. I'm not sure what you mean by the second half of that. Who, exactly, plundered the church's treasury to pay for theri flamboyant life styles?

point # 5 Are you suggesting that the various cardinals and archbishops here - not to mention the last pope adn or his advisors - were homosexuals?

172

alicia,

28/01/2007 11:49:42

Can the people of faith stop demonising other sections of society who they don't like?

It's a two way street.

Many cries of bigotry against the Catholic church, but if you look at the article, and other articles in the same vein, it is the Catholic church that is attacking and judging other sections of society. When you criticise and attack other members of society they will stand up for the rights of their own positions.

It is only within the Catholic church that people do not speak up for their individuals beliefs, afraid of being outcast for daring to question. Many, many people have left the Catholic faith for that reason.

173

de bono,

28/01/2007 11:52:31

Thanks Thomas, I can see your point and I do think that your point that the well being of the child is what matters.

However, the Catholic Church believes that the best interests of children are met by being brought up in a heterosexual setting. There's a difference in philosophy here.

How do you know that the Church is wrong?

If I died I'm not sure if I would want my child to be brought up by a gay couple. Am I prejudiced by admitting this? It might be better than a care home or a chaotic heterosexual family. I think the ideal setting is where there are both role models and an engagement with society that is not overly influenced by a certain scene. I suspect that a lot of gay couples inhabit a social world that is predominantly gay - (this could be a reflection of societal prejudice as well).

The right of the child could, conceivably, be construed to be that they are brought up in a setting that is not overly influenced by the sexual oreientation of their adoptive parents. For most children, being gay is alien to their development.

Apparently Catholic adoption agencies do comparatively well by the agreed national standards. If it ain't broke . . . .

I'm putting these questions to you in a no-dogmatic way - this is what I think now but am interested in other views.

174

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 11:54:47

162 Faramars, sorry to disallusion you, but you're flat wrong. There is lots and lots and lots of evidence of homosexuality being widespread throughout the world and throughout history. Indeed, there is homosexual material in ancient Persian love poetry. In college I studied a tribe in New Guinea who were until recently nearly unknown to the modern world who practice homosexuality as the norm: men in the tribe take wives, but approach them only for purposes of reproduction, and spend the rest of their time living and having sex with other men. The army of the ancient city of Alexandria was known as "the sacred band" and was composed of 500 male homosexual couples, on the belief that if a man was fighting for the survival of his lover he would never back down. (They never did, either.) In the Americas, the native peoples believed that homosexual men were holy men and gave them religious positions of respect in the tribes. The ancient greeks frequently practiced homosexuality, it was normal for a man to have both a wife (who in many regions there he wouldn't actually live with) and a young male lover (who he likely would actually live with). Aristotle and Socrates wrote of the virtues of homosexuality and its moral superiority to heterosexuality. (I don't agree with them about that, but they did write it.) Quite a few of the roman emperors were either homosexual or bisexual. One or two of the American presidents of the 1800's are now believed to have been homosexual - there's even some debate about Lincoln.

Your claim that there were "less than a handful" of examples of homosexuality throughout history is laughable: I have books which document hundreds of homosexual couples in ancient history, and those are just the ones who were actually noteworthy for one reason or another. I can't possibly produce a list of even all the particularly noteworthy gay people from throughout history, there are far more than I have space or time here to list.

175

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 11:57:00

176 de bono

Please refer to my post # 167 regarding who would raise a given Catholic's orphaned children.

Perhaps you might answer the questions for me....

176

eric,

28/01/2007 11:57:46

Henry viii Was my fav Monarch.

177

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 11:59:03

God is dead, but then he was never alive..Its time to leave all the ancient rhetoric behind and accept that times change..

178

Faramars,

Iran 28/01/2007 11:59:28

Alec 169
Homosexuality is a modern scandal for humanity which is in opposition to all morality and ethics . I can say that It is against the true and pure nature of mankind and this enough to be immoral . That is why it is prohibited and condemned in all religions including Islam and Christianity . mankind position among other creatures is higher but homosexuality is a main factor to change this position very low even lower than animals position .there is no homosexual relation between animals, but we see this immoral subject as one of the important matters today . There are many legislation bodies, lawyers, and religious officials who are worried about this subject . Irrespective of religion this bad behaviour is against human pure nature. religion must help to preserve this pure characteristic .

179

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 28/01/2007 11:59:50

I heartily agree with Gnasher #5.

This Catholic Church Militant is desperate and pathetic. What would celibate, non-married priests know about adoption - many of them are in counselling or been defrocked because of their predeliction for young altar boys.

Many priests still corrupt youth - both male and female - and the "bull" coming from Benedict XVI only show that the Church of Rome is frantic to get its own way no matter what and no matter whether it infringes on the rights of other religions.

This is truly PATHETIC, PATHOLOGICAL, AND DANGEROUS because it crosses the boundaries of separation of church (hear read Roman Catholic Church) and state.

These bullying tactics from the Catholic church surely would not be approved by Jesus Christ and God must be very disappointed in His representatives on Earth.

180

Bakula,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:00:22

I am appauled and disappointed about some of the homophobic opinions on this forum! In the 21st century Gay people remain the only minority group that this 'society' finds acceptable to marginalise and discriminate against. If the issue was about skin colour or islamaphobia then the debate would not be happening, discrimination would not be tolerated!

Discrimination is discrimination, no matter if you hide behind the 'religious conscience' argument, which frankly is not strong enough. Should it not be our moral, not religious conscience which is important here? Morally we know we should not discriminate, we know this to be wrong therefore as intelligent sentient beings, should we not be questioning the values of a group of individuals who clearly think that discrimination is acceptable in the name of religious conscience?

I am proud of the fact Britain has made it legal for same sex couples to have the same rights as other citizens. I think we have come a long way since the decriminalisation of homosexuality 40 years ago, however, this debate illustrates that we have a long way to go. Gay people contribute and pay taxes like everyone else and therefore should have the same fundamental rights as everyone else.

The reformation happened nearlly 500 years ago for a reason. No religious group should ever be in a position where they effectively can blackmail the state! We have a secular society and we should be celebrating that and not considering a 'compromise' with a group of individuals who clearly are totally out of step with the 21st century.

The RC church, (supported by other right wing religious zealots) have made a mountain out of the proverbial molehill here, the numbers of gay people who choose to adopt is miniscule and often offer a home to chldren who are 'difficult to place' whether that be due to trauma they have experienced in their lives or through disability etc. This is therefore an important group who offer stability

181

Madwummin,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:01:47

Media 1 - you just don't get it, do you ? As much as you are entitled to be an athiest, agnostic, lapsed whatever or Jedi Knight - if you see fit. People who are of the Catholic Faith are entitled to their beliefs. In this country they are allowed to practice them - at the moment. What is being proposed denies them that fundamental right. THE RIGHT TO SAY NO - THIS IS CONTRARY TO MY CONSCIENCE AND MY BELIEFS.I WILL NOT AGREE TO IT, NOR WILL I SANCTION IT.
Guess what it is called.?Non Violent Protest.

182

de bono,

28/01/2007 12:02:57

Thomas, that's quite an essay. What is the name of the tribe in New Guinea?

It's not about prejudice against people being of the same gender - its about the homosexuality of the couple. This is a Catholic view and they are sticking to it - that children are best brought up in a heterosexual family. I think that this is probably true.

Of course there are compassionate, excellent gay couples with a huge amount to offer to children. If biology allowed it, they would have children together.

Adoption for gay couples is a way of finding completeness - a couple who love each other and who share the love and care for a child.

This is gay couples finding a way to form a family unit.

Is this in the best interests of the child they bring into this need for completeness?

Thomas, are gay relationships not a lot less stable than heterosexual ones statistically?

183

bill, england,

28/01/2007 12:03:25

No government has the right to force people to do what they believe to be wrong. Nobody has the right to place a child in a place where it may come to harm.

The interests of the child have to come first, and the qualified professionals are quite able to place and monitor a child's adoption, without government interference.

What is a scandal is the huge fees - up to £26000 - charged by adoption agencies. As a result there are thousands of adoptive parents and thousands of adoptees who are not making contact.

One would imagine that in a welfare state, such as we are supposed to have, there would be a better way of doing things.

184

de bono,

28/01/2007 12:06:31

180 - media - there you go again. Sunday Lecture . . . . .

185

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 12:10:48

181 Faramars

Isn't Islam based upon the prophet Mohammed's writings? And didn't he die nearly 14 centuries ago? If he found it necessary to preach against homosexuality, wouldn't that suggest that it was widespread enough for him to take such notice of?

I am not aware of Christ saying anything about homosexuality, although it is in the old testament, in Leviticus. But Christians have mostly dispensed with the covenant of the old testament. They don't wear sidecurls, keep kosher, or require that their males keep their heads covered. (Although it is interesting that cardinals and the pope do wear skullcaps.)

Sorry if my spelling of Mohammed might not be the one you prefer; it is a common problem with transliterations.

186

de bono,

28/01/2007 12:10:50

Bakula - I'm not sure if you get the fact that the Catholic Church is not trying to stop adoption to gay couples overall - just for its own agencies - 10% of adoptions in Scotland.

It's a matter of conscience.

The gay lobby should remember that gay couples have access to agencies that deal with 90% of adoptions.

Leave the Church to continue its excellent work.

Children will suffer if these agencies are closed down for the sake of a vociferous minority who still have access to other agencies.

Do you get this Bakula?

187

alicia,

28/01/2007 12:11:09

Offician petitions lodged at No. 10 website:

Exemptions for religious organisations from the Goods, Services and Facilities regulations, are of great concern and entirely unjust. The use of services, goods and facilities that heterosexuals take for granted, should be allowed to those from the lesbian, gay and bisexual communities; the protections that minorities and religious groups have in law should be granted to the lesbian gay and bisexual communities also; the end of a two-tier system which denies justice in the provision of goods, services and facilities to the lesbian, gay and bisexual communities should be implemented with no further delay and at the earliest point possible throughout the entirety of the UK.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/GSFRegs/#detail


Ruth Kelly is incompatible with this position as she holds views about homosexuality (and other issues) which are contrary to the equality agenda which it is her ministerial duty to promote. She has voted for motions to deny homosexuals rights to adoption, hurting chances of equality for homosexuality. The government would not find it acceptable to have a minister with a non-existent record of opposing racism in Kelly's position, and it should not be acceptable for Kelly to be in her position with a non-existent record of opposing discrimination against Homosexuality.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/kellyweu/#detail

188

Spellbound,

london 28/01/2007 12:11:20

Oh and for all of you who seem to automaically come to the conclusion that gay = pedophile, what the hell are you all on??? Thats like saying all black people are drug dealers!

Yes, you will get a minority who do find sexual pleasure from abusing children, but pedophiles come from all walks of life, every age, sex, religion, colour, creed and orientation.


"Studies suggest that heterosexual pedophiles out number homosexual pedophiles two to one (Cohen & Galynker, 2002"

http://www.iafn.org/publication/ote/otefall2006.cfm


Which surely wouldnt be right if EVERY gay person was a pedophile! And there are plenty of pedophiles to study as well as plenty of gay folk.
Gees people, we're in 2007 and some of you still seem to be living in the dark ages.

Gay people have 'normal' jobs, 'normal' lives and the same bills, responsibilities as straight people. The only thing that makes them different from straight people is who they sleep with so let me ask you this?

Do your children or the children of straight people see what happens in their parents bedroom???

If the answer to that is yes, well that child needs a lot of help!
If the answer is no, then what makes you think it would be any different in a gay relationship?

A child needs love, respect, and a home environment in which they feel safe and loved, a gay couple are just as capable of providing that as a straight couple.
And the argument that a child needs both a mother and a father isn't particularly accurate. We live in a society of single parent families who sometimes dont see or even know thier other parent and the children are well balanced, stable and grow into valuable members of society!

Maybe - a please note i said MAYBE - a heterosexual couple are the ideal, but we do not live in an ideal world, times change, situations change and

189

eric,

28/01/2007 12:11:48

Hypocrits.Coming from a church with child abuse Riddled into it,And a church that Pulled out of My mums funeral .Simply because we struggled to find the Extra £200 for his mass the night before ,
In God we trust incorp indeed ,Their God is Money,
They let my mum down very badly at the end .

190

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 12:12:51

170 de bono, "You give the AIDS example. That could be debated." What can not be debated is that the church was caught teaching ignorant people that condoms *cause* diseases, and when confronted with this blatant lie, the vatican did not apologize, did not direct its people to change the teaching, and did not actually ever admit that they'd lied. This is unforgiveable. "Other agencies provide plane loads of condoms and sexual education." A lot of good that will do after the RC church has carefully scared away the people who need them. "Can we stop demonising good people on the basis of their faith?" I'll consider it after they stop demonising me on the basis of mine.

171, Punctuation, man! Punctuation!

176 de bono, "However, the Catholic Church believes that the best interests of children are met by being brought up in a heterosexual setting. There's a difference in philosophy here. How do you know that the Church is wrong?" I know because I have listened to child welfare experts who have stated bluntly that without gay and lesbian couples, we'd have to start opening orphanages in the United States. I know because I've known gay and lesbian parents and their children, who were perfectly normal healthy children. I know because the best heterosexual parents I know have asked a single gay man to please raise their children if they, the parents, die an untimely death, because they believe he will be a better and more loving parent than any heterosexual couple they know.

"If I died I'm not sure if I would want my child to be brought up by a gay couple. Am I prejudiced by admitting this?" Yes. Consider the possibility that a wonderful, loving gay couple might come along and provide your child with every opportunity in the world - wouldn't that be good? Consider the possibility that that gay couple might be turned away by a catholic adoption agency and your child might have lesser opportunities in life

191

de bono,

28/01/2007 12:13:41

What's your point Alicia?

Would you like to close down Catholic agencies?

192

de bono,

28/01/2007 12:16:59

Off to dig the garden. Sun shining.

Peace

193

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 12:19:05

#184 Madwummin: you said "THIS IS CONTRARY TO MY CONSCIENCE AND MY BELIEFS.I WILL NOT AGREE TO IT, NOR WILL I SANCTION IT"

Nice try, that works when you are speaking on behalf of yourself, but when an organisation decides to take such a stace regarding a sensitive issue without first consulting its members and in contradiction to the law, then there is a slight problem..

194

alicia,

28/01/2007 12:21:21

If you'll look carefully at any posting you'll find the only people shouting about closing down the agencies are Catholic.

People standing up for equal rights are not demanding anyone close down an agency, only that agency should comply with the law of the land.

These are valid petitions presented to No. 10 that anyone wishing to see equality for all can sign online.

So many times at school, and this behaviour is very similar, have I heard a bully when questioned and argued with start shouting "you're bullying me".

Look within at your own views before you start criticising mine.

195

alicia,

28/01/2007 12:22:16

eh the Mail on Sunday? One of the right wing papers?? Only good thing that comes out of the Mail and the Mail on Sunday are the free DVD's ...

196

Madwummin,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:22:49

The only answer to this is REFERENDUM, REFERENDUM, REFERENDUM. LET THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND BE HEARD.

197

VFC,

London 28/01/2007 12:23:40

So the RCC is changing tactics.
Continue as is currently legal.
Then wait to be prosecuted.

A legal adoption agency made illegal.
An illegal war made legal.

Bring on the General Election.
Vote For Change.
Any party except Labour.

198

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:23:56

Media 197,

still frightened of my question re the Church of Scotland?

Only hate Catholicism?

Bigot.

199

Spellbound,

london 28/01/2007 12:26:10

Well, the monster raving loony party seems like the next best bet.... I mean, they cant mess the country up any more than it is?!!

200

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:27:07

198,

law of the land

1/ anti Catholic legislation exists right now.
2/ the law of the land contravenes Human Rights legislation.

All Catholics REQUIRE is the freedom to exercise our religious beliefs freely.

STOP the intolerance, please folks.

201

Bakula,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:27:53

Thomas Farrell, I'm so glad you are leaving your 'informed' opinions here. If only all were as open minded and well educated, clearly there are many who are not! Well done that man!

202

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:29:17

Spellbound 191,

any similar condemnation and correction for the idiots who insist priest = paedophile?

203

Thomas Farrell,

Massachusetts 28/01/2007 12:29:39

181 Faramars, "That is why it is prohibited and condemned in all religions including Islam and Christianity ."

That's not true. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. Further, there are many religions which do not forbid it. If anything, I consider it to be far more immoral that your nation is putting gay men to death merely for having sex. Murdering people for this is revolting.

185 de bono, "What is the name of the tribe in New Guinea?" I regret that I can't remember offhand and my college textbooks are presently packed because I'm moving house in a few months. I suggest you call a university sociology department and ask: the tribe was fairly well known because it's considered such a "weird" example.

"Is this in the best interests of the child they bring into this need for completeness?" That would depend on the fitness of the individual couple as parents, not on the genders of the people they choose to have sex with.

"Thomas, are gay relationships not a lot less stable than heterosexual ones statistically?" No, they aren't a lot less stable. In fact, let's look at Denmark, which was the first nation in the contemporary world to re-legalize gay marriage. The heterosexual divorce rate there is 56%, which is unfortunately not particularly abnormal for today's world. The lesbian divorce rate is 21%. The gay male divorce rate is 18%. Perhaps heterosexuals should be turning to their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters and asking for advice?

189, if children suffer from the closure of catholic adoption agencies, it is the church and only the church that you can blame for that. As I pointed out earlier, the church operated adoption agencies in Massachusetts for 16 years (in fact they were paid by the state using tax dollars to do it), handling 40% of adoptions here, while complying with gay rights anti-discrimination laws, before last year out of the blue the church suddenly felt compel

204

Bakula,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:29:46

De bono, do you get the fact that DICRIMINATION IS WRONG? Doesn't seem like it buddy!

205

Media 1,

cape town 28/01/2007 12:30:29

Pax: Stop trying to thrust your religious dividing rod between the man made faiths. You chose to follow one religion whilst slating the others, whereas I slate them all. Whether your a follower of Judaism, a christian or a believer in Islam, the underlying principles are one and the same, your essenatially a follower of an organised group who seek Power at all costs.

Now I have a wave to catch, so whilst I am riding the surf and lapping up the sun you can ponder your position in life and begin wondering why it is, that you LIVE for your god in one religion, but hate him in all the others..

Peace out!

206

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:32:22

Thomas 193,

Suggestion:

Catholic Agencies provide adoption services consistent with their religious beliefs.

Others proceed consistent with statute.

Homosexuals seeking a wee Johnny to raise go to one of the others.

Homosexuals happy.

Catholics happy.

Seems really simple to me.

207

Madwummin,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:33:42

Ok Media. What you are forgetting is the Catholic Church doesn't HAVE to consult with "it's Members" It's really simple.
The teachings of the Church are there for everyone. You can either agree with them - so they speak for you.
Or if you disagree with them - they don't ! Those Catholics who disagree with the teachings of the Church are seperating themselves from the Church and could be considered as holding some catholic values but are lapsed. They can speak for themselves. It's called free will.

208

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:34:17

Media,

I'm still not seeing an answer to my question. Why?

You made a lengthy, angry, wide ranging attack on Catholicism.

I asked you for a similar commentary on Ch of Scot.

Stiill unable to do it?

Why?

209

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:35:24

208,

no, you're wrong bakula.

When seeking adoptive parents for a child, discrimination is not only RIGHT, it's VITAL.

210

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 12:37:11

181 Faramars

Homosexuality is not reviled in all religions.

Google the terms berdache and two-spirits.

The Sioux and a number of other Native American peoples revered berdaches, and many thought that they were closer to the great spirit than the rest of the people.

They were often called two-spirits, because they were believed to be both male and female, although their anatomy was almost always normal.

A (berdache) two-spirit was a male who lived as a woman. He wore women's clothing and took part in women's activities. He was exempted from fighting. If he married he married a man, sometimes as a second wife. They performed special roles in varous ceremonies.

Many two-spirits were physically female. They lived as men. Some became leaders in the tribal council - occasionally even becoming chief. They went into battle with the men, or might became hunters, etc., depending upon the specific tribe.

Either type of two-spirit might become a healer.

It was considered to be good luck to have a two-spirit in your family.

The Christian missionaries found these practices shocking, and many of these people were killed.

211

Green,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:38:46

Some of the early comments got to the nub of this. The Catholic Church, and practically all organised religions, are discriminatory from the word go, they are all run by men and worship male gods and accordingly talk a lot of biased and dangerous rubbish.

Why should we listen to or give money to an organisation which sets its self up as a little cabal of men, endless recycling another biased view of what their favoured group of men wrote down 2,000 (or whenever) years ago? Let it go, ignore them, they have no credibility, let's work on dealing with everybody in amn unbiased and generous way, and assume thet if a group sets itself up from the beginning to be controlled by only one selected group of humanity, i.e. men, they have no interest in values of inclusion, democracy, non-discrimination, considering and valuing the opions of others... If they did why join a group which excluded and downvalues half of humans?

Discrimination means to treat people unfairly, you chose to split people into groups and give some of those groups characteristics you decide are bad and then treat individuals in those groups as bad as they must aurtomatically have the bad qualities you have decided for them. You cannot discriminate fairly or justifiably, its essentially wrong to discrinimate.

212

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:39:31

Alec, homosexuality (per se) is not reviled in Catholicism.

It is the homosexual act that is deemed sinful.

213

Me Thinks,

South 28/01/2007 12:41:49

Homosexuals should not under any circumstances be allowed to hijack a democratically elected process of government. But they have. The government have caved in to a tiny percentage of the population. The current government was voted in on a very small electoral ticket and have subsequently trashed the country. Why has the opposition not called for a vote of no confidence, for I just cannot see how anyone could have ‘****** v**’ this country in such a cataclysmic way as one, ‘Tony’ Blair.

Homosexuals, always appear to bash religion, hmm, wonder why?

214

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:42:35

215, no, you're wrong.

Discrimination is not only RIGHT - it's vital we DO discriminate.

Oh, and if you dont buy Catholicism - that's fine.

Is it OK if I do?

Are religious beliefs acceptable in Britain 2007?

Going back to dark ages where Catholicism is banned?

215

Madwummin,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:43:10

NO DISCRIMINATION ? EQUALITY FOR ALL ?
THEN REMOVE THE ANTI CATHOLIC LEGISLATION THAT IS CURRENTLY ON THE STATUTE BOOK IN THIS COUNTRY IMMEDIATELY.
What is that I hear from the gay community ?
Agreement ?
Silence?

216

it has always been allan,

28/01/2007 12:43:22

no 21 Wally. if Jesus is going to return to destroy the world he better hurry up before Bush does it for him.

anyway Arizona is a bit of a hell hole anyway.

I went for a holiday to a place called Sasabe.

Surely all the cowboys aren't all gay, or are they.

sending homosexuals to prison is like sending an alchoholic to work in a brewery

217

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:44:05

Some talk of democracy here....

Ask any group of right thinking adults in Britain right now about this law, and they'll tell you the same thing: this is sheer, unadulterated pc STUPIDITY.

Give orphan Annie a mum and dad.

218

Green,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:44:52

218, don't worry it will die out of its own accord, no need to ban it.

219

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:44:59

219,

and let's chuck those who murdered 14 Catholics in Derry in Jan 1972 in jail.

220

Em,

28/01/2007 12:45:01

#9 www.scottwebb.co.uk

I know, was having a bit of a blonde moment last night!

221

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:45:54

222, another STUPID comment.

catholicism is the biggest religion in the world with over 1000 million members.

222

eric,

28/01/2007 12:46:19

My last comment 192 It turned out we couldnt afford the Rc Church,
Anyone heard Siouxsie &the Banshees version (theLords prayer!)

223

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 12:47:56

215 Pax, I never said it was.

I was responding to Faramars in 181, who said that homosexuality was immoral, and it was 'prohibited and condemned in all religions'.

224

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 12:49:06

226

Don't know what you're saying there, eric

225

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:49:27

Has Britain passed legislation against any other religion?

Just Catholicism being attacked AGAIN!!!

Oh, surprise surprise....

Same old Britain.....always bigotted against Catholics.

226

albanman,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 12:52:17

Eric (No.192)

As a Catholic priest, I can assure you that NO fees are charged for funerals, weddings etc. Offerings are made only if the family is able. If you are willing to supply details of the situation you mentioned concerning your mother's funeral - year, parish, town etc -I will be more than willing to pass this on to the appropriate church authority for investigation. Again - the Catholic Church does NOT have set fees for marriages, funerals, baptisms and the celebration of the Eucharist.

227

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:53:41

Alec 227,

Fair comment - thanks.

228

eric,

Lothian 28/01/2007 12:54:44

Thats ok Alec.

229

Green,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 12:56:39

225 Yes, its spreading in parts of the world without a long history of democracy and giving equal rights to woman. In the countries where most people get an education, people are used to being respected as equals, voting, and accepting women as full members of the human race, its dying out. It will die out in the countries as they fully adopt democracy, fully educate all their children etc. The Catholic Church (and other Christian religions) are putting efforts in those countries as people there are not onto them yet.

Are you really pleased to be a member of this stupid masculist organisation?

230

,

28/01/2007 12:57:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
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231

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 12:59:55

233,

since you're plainly hard of thinking and bigotted let me tell you again:

the catholic church is the biggest in the world.
it has over 1000 million members.
it has members in all continents
it has 5 million members in the uk.
it has members in all major European countries.
it is particularly strong in germany, italy, ireland and poland.

stop the bigotry, please. it's sick.

232

Trapper John,

Sydney 28/01/2007 12:59:57

Hey 217
you ever thought that those of us who were born gay are strong individuals who know how to lead life on their own? Rather than relying on some ancient fairytales as an excuse to be cruel, and judgemental about those who you deem to be inferior?

Oh and nice frocks boys............., noticed the new one has some new embroidery

233

eric,

Lothian 28/01/2007 13:01:18

230 Well thanks for that Sir,But we did complain at the time as mum was at chapel most weeks ,We spoke to the preist on Phone from undertakers ,And pleaded with Him just to hold on a few days till we made up the Money ,But he wasnt Interested ,in the nicest possible way ,he was very polite,We had to use a Humanist ,Which was a very nice service,For only £60 all in,We are over the worst now ,

234

,

28/01/2007 13:01:19
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235

Madwummin,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 13:02:10

The gay community and those who are anti religion can insult all they want. It makes no difference to me . Will never change my mind.
I will never accept that it is in the best interests of a child to be placed with a homosexual couple.
I will oppose homosexuality being taught in Scottish Primary Schools as denying me my rights under Article 9 of ECHR.
If they want weans, do what everybody else has to do and make their own.
Hell will freeze over before I allow any of my kids to be told by a teacher in school' that homosexuality even exists before I deem it appropriate.
Em - that would be another one of my Human Rights being breached.
So - knock yourself out. I won't agree with you,
Don't have to ,and I would like to see anyone try and make me.
Oh - by the way, there's still a law that hasn't been repealed that says that Catholics can be fined 2/6d if they don't attend Protestant Church on a Sunday.

And you think that they're going to pay any attention to Sexual Orientation Laws?

Hahahahahahahahahahahah

236

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:02:30

eric 237,

who did you complain to, and what response did you get?

237

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:03:11

Thomas Ferrell

Sambia, Etoro, Marind-anin ?

238

,

28/01/2007 13:03:41
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239

eric,

Lothian 28/01/2007 13:04:38

234 You are obviously Lost and need help And Guidance.My story as you so called it ,Is Very true ,And i dont really care wether you believe it or not,No one can hurt me anymore ,

240

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:04:48

re: 241

Sorry! Thomas Farrell

241

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 13:06:28

Alec in Chicago,

Apart from the monarchy I don't know of any other legislated employment that is closed to members of the Roman Catholic Church, however I do know that numerous Catholic run schools in Scotland only employ Catholic teachers.

Media 1,

It's not often that I agree with your views but you are spot on here.

242

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:07:36

232 eric

Sorry, that wasn't meant as a criticism, it was a request for clarification. As we have had a fair deal of contact in the recent past, I thought you would understand that.

243

Green,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 13:09:44

That's the worst of these masculists, they don't see anyone, but themselves. If someone criticises them they are bigots! An or4ganisation run for men by men, which excludes all women from positions of power is not bigoted? As you see women don't exist, they are obviously not real human beings!

The insanity of this is just mind blowing!

244

,

28/01/2007 13:11:34
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245

Trapper John,

Sydney 28/01/2007 13:13:02

re 239
Don't spit venom too soon, it might just happen to you. then again, i just hope that none of your kids turn out to enjoy a gay lifestyle, they would be lonely suckers if they were. Any potential life partners would run a mile with a bigoted horror like you as a potential in-law

246

alicia,

28/01/2007 13:15:21

238 - nice, show your obvious discrimination of people with learning difficulties. It seems your offensive views extend further than just gays.

247

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:16:04

245 Erse

Thanks, I had come to suspect that it wasn't so widespread that it would affect most people in their daily lives.

248

alicia,

28/01/2007 13:16:43

249 - no she would find herself a lonely old woman, sad thing is she would spend the rest of her days asking "what did I do/say to deserve that".

I know many folk that just walked away from embarrassing family members like that.

249

eric,

Lothian 28/01/2007 13:16:48

246 Its ok Alec Thanks .I wouldnt lie about something so sesitive,We have got over it now ,

250

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:19:36

PAX

234
238
242

The Catholic church here is all about money (not that they are alone in that). As I don't know the specifics there, I have remained silent.

However, you seem to see anti-Catholics everywhere, and I find it tiresome.

The comments referenced above are offensive. The remainder of your posts will be ignored.

251

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:20:11

Erse 245,

Should the offensive legislation be removed, Erse?

Do you condemn those who support it?

252

de bono,

28/01/2007 13:21:39

Pax - it's a shame that you are associated with the Catholic Church in the sense that you use inappropriate, intolerant and downright offensive language here.

Not like the Catholics I know who are tolerant, caring and do not use offensive language.

Do you think Jesus would call someone 'retarded'. It's easy to hide behind your pc and spout offensive language.

You are, correct, of course, about anti-catholicism though.

253

busbyfth,

28/01/2007 13:23:18

The RC church recently stated that homosexuality is only one step away from having sexual dealings with animals. What an absurd comment that was. Of all religions surely the RC faith is the last one that can pontificate to others about sexual "deviencies" with its recent chequered past.

254

,

28/01/2007 13:24:11
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255

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:25:17

257

The Queen recently stated that homosexuality is only one step away from having sexual dealings with animals. What an absurd comment that was. Of all people surely the Monarchy is the last one that can pontificate to others about sexual "deviencies" with its recent chequered past.

256

eric,

Lothian 28/01/2007 13:25:55

Thanks Alec ,Im depressed to think that someone would think i would lie about something like that ,But its nice to know that there is some descent folk like youself about ,

257

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:26:09

253 eric

It doesn't seem the kind of story one would bother to make up. Painful, no doubt, but not shocking.

I hope you have enough creativity that, should you decide to invent a story, you would come up with something more colorful!

258

Bakula,

glasgow 28/01/2007 13:26:17

Pax, I agree that judgements need to be made about the suitablility of parents. As a social worker I would not consider this discrimination however, it is part of the assessment process and seriously not the same thing!

Saying you won't work with someone because of their sexual orientation is discrimination. Now that the RC church has brought this issue up, gay groups should ask the Goverment to represent them and should not allow any religious body to justify such actions. It is time the last 'hidden minority' in this country DEMAND equal rights, not just accept to be continually marginalised.

259

,

28/01/2007 13:26:24
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260

Trapper John,

Sydney 28/01/2007 13:28:01

257
No need to bring the Masons into this debate......LOL
Anyway don't they "hate" and despise catholocs, so much for loving fellow man.

261

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:28:43

Bakula,

you contradict yourself.

Discrimination is right and it's essential....whether you're a Social Worker or not!

Note: catholics dont have equal rights.

262

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 13:29:43

Pax 255,

What offensive legislation?

263

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:30:30

254,

suit yourself.

I have been asking for hours for you to condemn the anti catholic stuff on these pages, and you have failed.

i wonder why........

264

alicia,

28/01/2007 13:30:40

"I may despise gays"????

I must check what the woman I woke up with thinks about that comment.

The height of stupidity.

265

eric,

Lothian 28/01/2007 13:31:09

261.True mate.I hope you have a good day,

266

Ocean11,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 13:31:38

Eric, pretty cerebral stuff for you based on previous posts? Enlighten us please..

267

albanman,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 13:31:39

Eric - Again, I will be most willing to take your case to the appropriate Church authority. It seems that you are in the Lothians, so that would be Keith O'Brien. I must re-iterate that the Catholic Church has no set fees for weddings, funerals and such like. I understand that some religious denominations do have fees, but we do not.

You mentioned that you paid 60GBP for the services of a humanist; in Edinburgh some funeral directors automatically tag this amount on to the price of a funeral whenever a member of the clergy is used. I'm not about to call you a liar, as some have on this board, and I would like to help.

268

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:32:39

248 eric,

can i presume you'll be taking up the earlier offer to resolve your problem?

or am i right in presuming you're just a bigotted half wit?

269

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:33:35

166 Thomas

Liked your Unitarian joke. They seem to have an interesting sense of humor about their own religion. A friend was going out with a Unitarian, and she wanted him to go to church with her occasionally. When he was hesitant she told him a little of her religion. I don't know how much of this was her description or how much was his interpretation, but it he told me that Unitarians don't have a lot of requirements - you're barely required to contemplate that there might be a god.

270

Ocean11,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 13:34:15

Can we change this blog to ERIC ON SUNDAY??

Take it easy - you've got an axe to grind about other stuff, try to deal with the issue here and leave the other stuff for another article?

271

,

28/01/2007 13:34:17
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272

de bono,

28/01/2007 13:34:35

Pax, can you define 'retarded' and demonstrate how you have sufficient knowledge of eric to apply this term to him?

Sometimes it's better to describe the behaviour and apply an adjective than to extend this to a statement about the person.

I don't know if eric's story is true. If it is, then the priest is out of order and not following Church practice as explained earlier on.

273

,

28/01/2007 13:35:32
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274

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:37:00

de bono,

eric made numerous posts.

plainly, you have not read them.

i suggest you do.

i am well aware of the meaning of that word.

275

Helen,

28/01/2007 13:37:06

Pax Vabascum. I sincerely hope you rot in hell. Bigots like you are not fit to wipe the feet of decent LGBT couples who simply want to give a child in need a loving home. I'm a practising Catholic who happens to be a lesbian....no doubt you would have me burned at the stake, but just remember this, good will always triumph over evil, and equality will always triumph over homophobia and injustice.

276

skeptic griggsy,

augusta,ga 28/01/2007 13:38:37

These homophobes base their nonsense on Biblical passages that bigots of yore just made up on whims!Instead, to go by facts and reason , one would be pro-gay and bisexual.Bisexuality could be a good thing I find in my imagination.Most people ,contrary to those bigots of yore's teachings, commit pre-marital sex as they ought. Reason and facts to see what is good or bad for humans, other animals and the enviornment makes good morality.Bentham's principle of pleasure and pain have a role to play. Our humanist morality ,like science is provisional and debateable .I t is contextual.Thus, it is neither absolutist nor relativist but fits the situation.Our universal values of right and wrong play out .Thus, our is objective , not subjective like religious morality.Evolution gives us a moral sense that we have to develop.Who wants to stone people?Who would punish people for eating of the tree of right and wrong? Who would send people even to a metaphorical Hell? No, it is not we who follow the church on morals , but it that has changed over the centuries and should now in regards to sexuality . The Pope has no right to impose his nonsense about sex on society.It is bigotry to oppose homosexuals and bi-sexuals It is bigotry that bases itself on the bigotry of the men of yore.It is bigotry to disriminate against worthy people . Religious freedom cannot defend bigotry!

277

eric,

Lothian 28/01/2007 13:40:00

If any of you have Lost a loved one That i may add I nursed myself at her home,You Certainly would Not want to Go dragging up all sorts of trouble and upsetting my family in the process or Even getting the preist into Trouble himself,You seem to forget the fact i am RC myself,I cant undertand why my plight makes me bigoted.271 I thank you very kindly for your offer indeed ,its all in the Past for me now ,

278

Carolyn 1,

Boston, Mass 28/01/2007 13:40:31

Excellent blogs....
To Alec in Chicago-
History:
This is the country (England) that axed the Scottish Queen for being Catholic- (Mary Queen of Scots)
a queen who granted religious freedom for all, yet the CoS was determined, (perhaps because they were paid by the English to be determined,) that Scotland would never be Catholic. John Knox founded Cos. and endorsed burning and tearing down of all Catholic property. His preachings stand to this day as the most inflamtory against women in all history. The word is misogyny. The Catholic Church never recovered, in the UK and in the US Catholics were considered inferior for centuries.
It is a relief that the Church is taking the high road and refusing to be persecuted.
Here in Massachusetts a gay couple has a higher preference to adopt than a single woman- this is not new- 18 years ago, because of that- I adopted privately in New York STate and have proved to be an excellent mother to a child who would otherwise have been aborted.
This is also the issue of abortion....
the world watches you Scotland.
Thank you.

279

Carolyn 1,

Boston, Mass 28/01/2007 13:40:58

Excellent blogs....
To Alec in Chicago-
History:
This is the country (England) that axed the Scottish Queen for being Catholic- (Mary Queen of Scots)
a queen who granted religious freedom for all, yet the CoS was determined, (perhaps because they were paid by the English to be determined,) that Scotland would never be Catholic. John Knox founded Cos. and endorsed burning and tearing down of all Catholic property. His preachings stand to this day as the most inflamtory against women in all history. The word is misogyny. The Catholic Church never recovered, in the UK and in the US Catholics were considered inferior for centuries.
It is a relief that the Church is taking the high road and refusing to be persecuted.
Here in Massachusetts a gay couple has a higher preference to adopt than a single woman- this is not new- 18 years ago, because of that- I adopted privately in New York STate and have proved to be an excellent mother to a child who would otherwise have been aborted.
This is also the issue of abortion....
the world watches you Scotland.
Thank you.

280

de bono,

28/01/2007 13:43:31

278. You are either:

Not aware of the meaning of the word

Aware of the meaning of the word and have knowledge of Eric other than his posts

Aware of the meaning of the word and making an inaccurate and speculative judgement.

The first and the third are indicative of ignorance or wilful aggression on your part

The second is very unlikely.

Eric has written some garbage in terms of its content, that's true.

You suspect him of fabricating stories to underpin an anti-catholic stance.

You won't help by calling him names.

You're doing this for yourself - if you really wanted to counter anti-catholicism you would seek to build understanding - not use offensive terminology.

281

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:44:06

Would everyone please join me in ignoring Pax for the rest of his thread?

He's so busy telling other people that they can't think that he misses responses to his posts.

I think he will continue his tirade until he stops getting attention for it.

282

Bakula,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 13:44:06

Oh dear PAX, sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder the size of Dumbarton rock! Shame you feel the need to bring Northern Irish stuff into this. Please don't feel persecuted as a catholic because you aren't (unless you are planning to become the next monarch that is).

If you do feel discriminated against then surely you must have some empathy and solidarity with other minority groups e.g. gay people?

I also take issue with you calling people 'retard' not very tolerant or respectful is it?

283

thesmallerhalf,

West Lothian 28/01/2007 13:49:43

Perhaps Pax Vabascum and others of his ilk should consider the historical reasons for anti-Catholicism in the UK. And do you really think that, had the Catholic faction triumphed over the Protestant faction in the late 17thC, a Catholic establishment would have been any different in their suppression of Protestantism? There is little in the history of the Catholic Church to suggest that it would have been tolerant, magnanimous or forgiving. That does not excuse the mistreatment of Catholics by the establishment, but lets at least try to keep this matter in perspective.

As for the current controversy. If Catholic adoption agencies wish to discriminate so be it. But not while they are publicly funded. And I see some irony in the Church's wish to retain the power to discriminate, and its view that to prevent them discriminating against one part of the population is in itself discrimination.

Perhaps Catholic objectors might consider how Jesus would have reacted rather than rely on the carefully selected writings of those who took up the Christian and shaped it to their own ends.

284

goldie,

uk 28/01/2007 13:50:35

Soya beans and female hormones in meat cause homosexuality??? -
As a gay man - can't I utilise MY human rights??? I'm refusing to be persecuted. And how on earth is this also an issue of abortion?

285

,

28/01/2007 13:51:02
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286

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:53:06

287,


OMG....a history lesson from 300 years ago to justify British bigotry in 2007. Sheeeeeesh!

The Church is right to discriminate in its efforts to find good parents for children.

It's not only RIGHT - it's VITAL they do.

VITAL.

287

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 13:55:03

Alec,

how interesting to see your contempt for me....whilst quite comforable with numerous anti catholic posts.

not want to isolate them?

bigotry ok?

288

,

28/01/2007 13:56:51
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289

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 13:58:14

283 Carolyn 1

I know enough of the history of the enmity between Catholics and Protestants to know that it is a real can of worms.

I did tell Pax about the reaction to JFK when he ran for president: there were many who suggested that his loyalty to Rome would supercede his loyalty to the nation, yet I can't recall anyone suggesting that any Protestant candidate might have greater loyalty to his church.

By the way, buried somewhere in the earlier posts, I stated that I went to Catholic school. I heard a lot about anti-Catholicism. (I don't know why I keep typing Catholocism.)

However, I don't necessarily see this as persecution.

290

de bono,

28/01/2007 14:00:40

288 - it's an issue very related to abortion because of the extraordinarily high number of abortions in the UK which does not sit well with the number of couples looking to adopt.

Abortion has become a form of contraception.

291

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 14:03:03

Alec, I think many of your posts show stunning naivety.

I guess it's rather like me making posts on affairs in Chicago.

I have previouly given numerous real cases of anti catholic stuff from the British State including murders, maimings, and legislation.

292

thesmallerhalf,

West Lothian 28/01/2007 14:03:40

Carolyn 1 of Boston errs in one crucial detail. Mary, Queen of Scots, was not killed for being a Catholic. She died because she was seen as a real threat to the political establishment of the time, a potential focal point for rebellion. She was a victim of her time and circumstance, and to some extent her own poor judgement. Certainly in the eyes of a number of militant English Catholics she was the figurehead of a future Catholic succession. You should consider what would have happened to Elizabeth I if the plotters had succeeding in placing Mary on the English throne.

The destruction of fallen rulers is a recurring theme in history, often seen as a necessity for the retention of power. Edward II, Louis XVI and family, Czar Nicholas and family are all examples.

293

Bakula,

Glasow 28/01/2007 14:04:03

Alec in Chicago - I agree, perhaps if we ignore him he will go away. Doesn't seem as though he able to grasp the main arguements and resorts to name calling when his points are refuted!

294

Green,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 14:07:10

N let's listen to Pax Verbascum.... has he yet explained why he belongs to an organisation which is bigoted towards half the human race, that is women, plus a sizable no of people of both sexes who are gay? Who taught him this bigotry and why he thinks the rest of us should pay our taxes to pay out tax relief to his bigoted organisation. The story about fees rather misses the point that everything the churches do is partly funded by the government giving tax benifets and reliefs to the Churches.

Am I right to refuse to have my taxes paid over to an organisation which refuses to let women be incvolved in running it?

295

de bono,

28/01/2007 14:07:52

292- wilfully agressive it is then.

eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth?

What about love your enemies?

296

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:08:27

287 thesmallerhalf

Thank you!

I asked fairly early on whether there was a system in the UK similar to the one we have here in the States. If a church wants to avoid certain types of government control, they may do so, provided tha they do not accept public funding. (There are some limits, of course, but their religious beliefs are generally not interfered with.)

297

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 14:08:52

Pax,

I'll ask the question again - What legislation?

298

ddmc,

28/01/2007 14:11:34

'catholics and Protestants are long reconciled in Scotland'.....have you never been to an old firm game, providing evidence that bigotry is alive & kicking in Scotland.
The bottom line here is that anyone can break the law if it goes against their beliefs, i dont believe in speeding but i dont think i would get far in court with that defence. Repealing the anti discrimination law's would be a fair response from any people & organisations who don't believe in it, but an opt out opens the flood gate's to all. After all there is nothing stopping the RC or any other group forming a political lobby to promote their causes.

299

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:12:21

298 Green

But reading his posts isn't the same as giving him attention by replying to his posts.

300

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 14:15:50

303 Alec in Chicago,

It's good fun though!

301

Green,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 14:17:09

Alec in Chicago

I want him to take part in democratic debate and explain to me why his organisation is bigoted against women. Don't tell me what to ask or say

302

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:20:17

297 Bakula

Perhaps we can make a chart:

That's Bakula and Alec: "Don't respond"

Erse and de bono are responding, but they haven't stated their position, so they might just have some unfinished business.

Green says listen to him, but we'll have to wait to see what he thinks about not replying.

Eric, england hasn't been heard from for a while....

Any others...?

303

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:21:31

305 Green

I don't want to tell you what to think or say.

I was inviting you. Big difference.

304

Green,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 14:22:46

Probably the great god of Sunday lunch has taken over

305

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:23:07

304 Erse

Fair point!

Have at him all you like. Enjoy!

306

Me Thinks,

South 28/01/2007 14:24:12

#280
Homophobes> Really ? Are you equating, a dislike with a fear?

On a whim… A most curious statement implies thus : Any person who is not a homosexual is automatically ascribed to own a mind that produces incoherent nonsense when considering such matters such as why homosexuality exists and whether it should be practiced and does such a practice violate the integrity of the particular belief system that they follow.

The Catholic Church does not conclude that homosexuality is wrong on a whim, nor does any other religion. But it doesn’t take long for any person to work out that it is an absolute abomination and a blasphemy personified.

You Humanists really are, so fond of the word bigot. Are we meant to like you ?

Really. Gosh.

Like all other religions, Catholicism is about the ‘experience of being human’.

The dogmas of Catholicism are not just , ‘plucked out of the air’.

Benthams, principle of pleasure and pain ? Please, through away your ammature
Sociology/psychology, we don’t need it, Human experience does not require such obtuseness. Humanists are just an excuse for, well we cant be bothered to work anything out for ourselfs brigade and anything goes is ok because hey, no ones keeping tabs on us , are they.

Gosh, your moral relativism just makes me feel like throwing up, its so , nauseous.

Well, its also nice to know that all you humanists have finally got it right and have worked all those rather nasty little questions such as the evolutionary approach to the meaning of life and more

The pope has every right to impose what ever his doctrine feel is an absolute, he is the head the church. It is up to each follower to live there life according to there interpretation and there own real life context.

You, know, I have a feeling here that the most bigoted persons around are the, gay humanist, life to suit them at all cost and accuse others of being bigots if they are challenged

307

Green,

Green 28/01/2007 14:30:29

When the Pope is a women we will not need to describe you all as bigots. And what about the money... don't want to bring up such a sordid subject when you are discussing what its like to be human?

308

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:30:42

303 Erse

re: 309

Before Green tells me not to tell *you* what to do, that was agreement; I'm not suggesting I have the interest, never mind the authority, to grant or withhold either approval or permission.

309

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:32:15

*Sorry!!**

That last one was for Erse at **304**

310

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 14:33:25

308 Green,

Either that or he's off to Mass, but I doubt that very much.

311

Me Thinks,

South 28/01/2007 14:35:45

What would you know about women.
Anything?

The Catholic church venorates women as the bearers of life.

312

de bono,

28/01/2007 14:35:46

Alec - i've seen previous posts by Pax and whilst he uses a lot of labels and offensive language, he is correct to point out the lazy and ill informed views on Catholicism that people churn out as the root of all that is evil.

The Church is visible and says what it believes in - which is often at odds with a pick and mix neo-liberal individualistic society where people interpret human rights as 'i have a right to everything I want now'.

There is also a lot wrong with the Church but Catholics are not brain washed idiots who don't think for themselves as seems to be suggested by some contributors.

A lot of anti-catholicism is based on ignorance and fear as well as judgements going back to the middle ages when everyone was killing and torturing each other anyway.

Catholics make a big contribution to society, to individuals and to the world.

They are entitled to hold, defend and practice their beliefs as a community.


There are more sub

313

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 14:37:57

304 Alec of Chicago,

I am glad you agree and I am glad that you have given me permission to respond to the Pax Almighty - if he's still here. It's gone quiet from his parochial house.

314

de bono,

28/01/2007 14:38:56

Green, do you think that all Catholic women are brain washed and controlled by men?

Why are there so many Catholic women committed to their faith all over the world.

Can you enlighten and free them green?

315

de bono,

28/01/2007 14:50:10

Green

Are you better informed, more enlightened/intelligent than all of those sad silly ignorant Catholic women - all 600 000 million of them?

You must be a genius!

Please share your wisdom.

316

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:50:49

317 Erse

Are you ribbing me, or do you think, despite my post, that I was 'giving you permission'?

It's sometimes hard to tell jokes from serious comments on these fora.

I think that's what prompted Green to react the way he did: he never realized that I was only half-serious.

Bakula got it, I think: He never actually decided to 'join me', yet I put his name in 'my' column in my post at 306 - and he didn't voice an objection. Obviously, he realized that I was not trying to speak for him.

As to an actual, serious boycott, that wasn't what I was after: I was trying to make a point to Pax indirectly.

317

Robert71350,

New York City 28/01/2007 14:52:06

I totally concur with #38. The Catholic Church has a long history of torture, persecution and oppression against anyone who did or should I say does not adhere to its belief system, ditto the Church of England and other bigoted, corrupt, acutely judgemental organizations. Homosexuals have now become the traditional scapegoats du jour for all of societies' ills. The absurdity of it all is that there are even muslim and christian clerics who blame homosexuality on inclement weather such as Hurricane Katrina and Tsunamis. Yes, they actually believe this! Their ignorance, fear and hatred is mindboggling and belief system archaic and irrelevant. They are desperate, ignorant people. Their homophobia is also questionable and obsessive, maybe they have issues with their own sexuality since they seem to protest too much. By the way, it wasn't Jesus Christ who condemned or uttered one word against homosexuality, nor did he judge others. It came from ordinary, common, ignorant men who've not evolved much even to this day. I strongly recommend all religious bigots to visit www.fallwell.com for some surprising references taken from the bible geared towards heterosexual behavior and maybe they'll learn a lession in humility and not rush to judge homosexuals so fervently.

318

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 14:52:54

Erse,

I was watchin' the game!

The champions are winning 1-0.

319

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 14:54:43

321,

Christianity forbids fornication.

320

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 14:56:49

ddmc 302,

I've been to many OF games, but see very few Catholics and far fewer Protestants.

321

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 14:56:54

316 de bono

As I said, I went to Catholic school. I have had direct experience with the Catholic church - at least, with the American Catholic church.

Please also see 317 and 293.

322

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 14:58:41

Erse 301

The Act of Settlement, 1701.

323

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 15:00:26

320 Alec,

I am sorry my friend I was indeed ribbing you. Please do not feel that you have to justify your comments to any one on this post.

324

,

28/01/2007 15:01:32
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325

de bono,

28/01/2007 15:01:43

OK alec but do you agree that a lot of anti catholic ism is badly informed and stemming from prejudice - or is it valid and useful?

326

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:03:03

297,

awwwww....diddums.....they're gettin upset cos i keep telling them the truth.

awwwwwwwwwwww.

327

de bono,

28/01/2007 15:03:39

Will get your reply later.

328

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:04:14

329

anti catholicism

bigotry, stupidity, ignorance, orangeism,

329

,

28/01/2007 15:05:15
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Reason:
330

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 15:08:26

327 Erse

You've certainly no reason to apologize!

I was only asking for clarification.

331

Alec in Chicago,

28/01/2007 15:10:18

329 de bono

I'm sorry, but would you clarify what 'it' refers to. Sorry to be so obtuse, but I have been up all night.

332

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 28/01/2007 15:16:28

The last time I posted it was #182. NOW we are at #317 and it seems that most of them are from Pax Vabascum who insults people if they disagree with him and acts in a typically Catholic way - unforgiving, guilt-ridden, and hypocritical.

As I stated earlier, this new Catholic Church Militant is a threat to peace and order in Great Britain and one could almost think that they are gearing up for another Crusade against the unbelievers and the unconverted.

The comment by Pax that RCism is the largest religion in the world is true BUT there are other religions and countries that have no state religion such as China that add up to more than 1 billion souls.

Bigger is not always better and the bloated rhetoric and grandiose aims of the Unholy Mother Church smack of world domination and persecution.

I never trusted Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Ratzinger and I certainly am very wary of him and his army of priests and nuns to wonder if any good can come of this ridiculous stance that the Vatican and its minions are taking.

333

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 15:17:51

326 Pax,

Glad to have you back.

The act of settlement excludes any and all religions except the Chuch of England for the sole reason that the monarch is the recognised Head of the C of E just as the Pope is the recognised head of the Catholic church, therefore I think you are being a little selfish thinking that the legislation applies only to Catholics and by your very argument the Catholic church is being bigoted by not allowing members of other faiths becoming Pope.

334

Pilrig,

LiIvingston 28/01/2007 15:22:48

Pax #306 - does anyone, other than the Wee Frees and the Orange Order object to the abolition of the Act of Settlement.
Of course not, it should be scrapped, except Tony and cronies say it's 'too complicated' to change - unlike waging a couple of wars !

335

,

28/01/2007 15:24:36
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336

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 15:26:04

More militants eh - talking church here ...

So the Catholic Heads want to make themselves martyrs to the cause .... go ahead.

They are looking more and more irrational as the days go by .. and like the martyrs of other extreme religions they will disregarded for what they are.

337

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 15:28:06

Pilrig 339,

I agree.

338

Carolyn 1,

Boston, US 28/01/2007 15:35:59

I live in an area with a very high concentration of Scots. To be a Catholic in the UK symbolizes, (here where I live- but maybe not for you) a stubborness to persevere and to hold fast to your own belief no matter the consequence. Extraordinary really.. and certainly one of the reasons why we American hold Scots in such high regard.

Is recusancy still on the books? Any lawyers on the blog? Does it have any possible thread to the issue of the separation of chuch and state for the catholic agencies?

339

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:37:10

Erse 337,

More lies.

The Act specifically excludes "Papists".

No-one else is excluded.

Just Papists.

340

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:39:34

Jeff 340,

and in so doing will expose Brirtain as an anti Catholic State.

Britain:

murdered Catholics
maimed Catholics
retains anti Catholic legislation
now passes legislation that renders certain Catholic practices illegal.

Britain is a bloody disgrace, and needs to be exposed to the world as such.

341

Keith Lagden,

28/01/2007 15:40:31

Why should the RC church comply with the law, the priests thought they were above the law when they abused frightened little boys, I hope they get whipped in court, laws for the RC church, next it'll be laws for Muslims. The law is for ONE & ALL. Comply Catholic Church or Go back to Rome.

342

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:40:37

338,

very true, but too many neanderthals (here and elsewhere) have NOTHING to ay about this discrimination.

343

Blindscout,

The Area You need to pay to get into 28/01/2007 15:42:58

53 Pax

C of S statement is at

http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news/nr080107.htm

Basically accepts the Catholic Church point of view, but that children should be the prime concern, and that the agencies should place children with the most suitable 'parents' and that same sex couples shoulkd not automaticaly be excluded.

344

JG,

Fife 28/01/2007 15:45:31

Pax
Have you sought help for your persecution complex? It seems to be quite established now, and it would be a good idea.

345

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 15:46:22

343 Pax,

The act has been updated somewhat since 1701 to include all other religions such as Islam, Judaism, Baptists, Presbytarianism, Hinduism to name but a few. It can be changed, however as Pilrig mentioned above this Labour government, historically a bastion for Catholic voting in the UK, has deemed it "too complicated" to change just like it seems a little bit too complicated for you to remove the green tinted glasses of imaginary persecution.

346

,

28/01/2007 15:46:22
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347

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 15:49:40

#344

Take some more sedative Pax ....

348

ddmc,

28/01/2007 15:50:35

#324 so why do they sing sectarian songs for that 90 minutes ?, i agree with you that very few of them practise religion or even abide by Christian morality, but that is also true of the 1 billion figure you quote in other posts. FYI i'm agnostic not much better than an athiest in Christians/Judaism/Muslims eyes ;~).
Religion has killed more people in the name of their god than any dictator or despot, i wish people would put their faith into something other than non elected conmerchants all claiming that their god is better than others, that their teachings are better etc & condeming the rest to eternity in hell. IMHO were already in hell & we've all failed the grade, anyway it is all moot points, we'll be lucky to get another 20-30 years out of this planet, as it's well & truely f*ck'd.

349

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:56:19

Erse 350, that's just not true.

It discriminates against only catholics.

350

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:57:29

352,

Rangers fans sing sectarian anthems for 90 mins, but very very few of them are Prods.

351

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:57:54

Jeff 351,

I accept your surrender.

352

Carolyn 1,

Boston, US 28/01/2007 15:58:21

As Scots prepare to vote for/against a union I assume there must be a constituion already in place for self governing... or are you recylcing something?
what does the 'new' Scotland say about separation of church and state? and freedom of religion?
Anything in the 'new' Scotland that will change the staus quo?

353

JG,

Fife 28/01/2007 15:59:31

#354 Pax
Celtic fans ALSO sing sectarian anthems for 90 minutes.

354

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 15:59:56

JG 348

Persecution complex?

I imagined Bloody Sunday?

I imagined the RUC's penchant for killing innocent Catholics?

I imagined State help for Loyalist scum to kill Catholics?

I imagined anti catholic legislation?

355

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:00:37

JG 357,

really?

when?

where?

what?

and how many of them are catholics?

356

magnolia,

28/01/2007 16:01:54

It just goes to show what idiots the catholic church are. Anyone who believes the rubbish they spout must be an idiot. Please, we are supposed to live in a democratic society. Don't let this fascist, medieval organisation have any say in modern life whatsoever.Thank you

357

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 16:02:27

#355

hee-hee ... you are so funny - how can anyone take a maniac like you for real!?

358

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 16:02:53

#360

SPOT ON!

359

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 16:03:11

Pax, is that the bit you've just read on the internet? It has been updated to attempt to stop narrow-minded bigots like you from feeling singled out and persecuted.

360

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:04:47

Blindscout 357,

thanks - very interesting, but not what I sought.

Media 1 made a lengthy, wid ranging vitriolic attack on Catholicism.

Just wondered whether he hated Catholics or all religions.

Result: he despises Catholicism.

361

elstuarto,

UK 28/01/2007 16:04:52

The church will not be able to defend it's position with article 9 of the Human Rights act 1998.

Article 9(1) protects peoples right to "freedom of thought, conscience and religion", and allows one to "manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance"

However these rights are clearly limited by Article 9(2), which reads:

"Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others"

In other words, British law can limit expression of religious convictions if it is deemed to be necessary in order to protect the public's morals and protect the rights and freedoms of others.

As this proposed legislation is designed to both protect the rights of gay's and defend our nations commitment to equality and eradicating unjust discrimination, it is impossible to see how the church could make a case for exemption on the basis of section 9 of the Human Rights Act.

362

Erse,

Somewhere Non-Christian 28/01/2007 16:05:41

Magnolia - Fantastic! You have hit the nail right on the head.

363

,

28/01/2007 16:06:12
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364

JG,

Fife 28/01/2007 16:07:00

#358 Pax
It is a bit pointless getting into an argument about the Irish situation over the years as there were undoubtedly atrocities on both sides - innocent Catholics were certainly killed, as were equally innocent Protestants. I guess the rights and wrongs of it depends entirely on whose side you are on.

My point about the "persecution" thing was that if I(as I have before) disagree with something you say it makes me "anti-catholic" - or a liar! I have read some of your comments in the past and agreed with some things you said but not with others. How does that put me into one of your category boxes?

365

,

28/01/2007 16:07:13
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366

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:08:34

368,

Sorry JG....more garbage.

When Britain got around to butchering innocents, it was invariably Catholics they butchered.

eg Bloody Sunday

eg decades of Catholic killing by the Royal Unionist Constab.

367

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 16:09:23

#367

GAY ADOPTION VIA CATHOLIC CHURCH:
so....it's not for you?

Fair enough!

Is it OK if others do it?

Or is Equal rights now available as an opt-out?

Should i call you Adolf?

368

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:09:40

JG,

when i say someone is a liar, its because they lie.

when I say someone is anti catholic, it;s because they're anti catholic.

seems straightforward to me.

369

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 16:09:57

#369

Homophobe

370

,

28/01/2007 16:11:15
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371

,

28/01/2007 16:11:50
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372

Bakula,

28/01/2007 16:12:17

Pax - It is wean not wain! As in, to 'wean' a child. Just like to point it out.

The rest of your coments don't dignify a response. Surely you can't seriously hold the beliefs you do? You must be taking the Michael?

373

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:13:54

376, thanks for that correction, Bakula, and i accept your surrender re the remaining points.

374

magnolia,

28/01/2007 16:14:05

Dear Pax 367,

It's not a question of whether it's for me or not. I believe in a democratic society, not a totalitarian, unelected religious state, catholic ir otherwise. Ruth Kelly should resign. She is an elected MP, not a member of the Spanish Inquistion.

375

JG,

Fife 28/01/2007 16:16:16

Pax old son, you are obviously completely unable to construct any kind of coherent argument as you can only see one side of ANYTHING. In your world NO Protestants were killed by the IRA etc, in Ireland - is that right? Everybody is against you. Nobody likes you. Everybody hates the Catholics (even if we actually don't!!!). Everybody is wrong except you!!

Now do you see the persecution thing?

376

Bakula,

Glasow 28/01/2007 16:16:36

Now this one will really amuse you! The cry was 'no surrender'. Stange why you feel it is important to you that people 'surrender' to you, lol. Oh, you seriously must be just having a joke! All the best people. Wasted enough time on here!

377

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 16:16:56

#374

Suggest you read again and see that your 'flimsy' arguements are being challenged as double-standards.

You want freedom of speech and respect for catholics but you refer to gays in derogatory terms and want to deny them the same rights to adoption as straight couples.

You are so blinded with hatred for gays you cannot see how ridiculous a figure you have become on these forums!

378

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 16:19:47

well said #379

Pax is looking very immature and unbalanced by condemning everyone as wrong except himself.

379

ddmc,

28/01/2007 16:23:13

Pax, why have you avoided answering any of my real points & stuck to the dogma that only the huns sing sectarian songs, i take it your deaf when sitting in the jungle or are your ears only attuned to anti catholic rants. If you feel so persecuted why do you remain & not move to a more comfortable catholic society as you mention Ireland, Poland, Italy, Spain are & missed one of the biggest which is Mexico. It appears you are as bigoted & ignorant as the people you despise. Better get the telly on as you wont want to miss Songs of Praise :-)

380

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:23:13

378

why should ruth resign?

381

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:23:45

381

derogatory terms?

382

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:24:19

383,

that's because they're wrong.

383

Pax Vabascam,

UK 28/01/2007 16:24:53

385

huns?

384

magnolia,

28/01/2007 16:26:12

378

I'll tell you why. Because her rational judgement as a human being seems to be being clouded by the extremist Opus Dei, which, in my opinion, are as bad as Al Qeida.

385

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 28/01/2007 16:26:27

#384

Because she does not believe in Equal Rights for all of the UK's tax-paying citizens for one!