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New Forth Bridge plan in disarray

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Published Date: 04 January 2009
PLANS for a new Forth road bridge were in disarray last night after the UK Government threw out a request to give the SNP administration a multimillion-pound cash advance.
Scottish finance secretary John Swinney had asked Westminster for the cash injection during construction of the £2.3bn project between 2012 and 2016, claiming the huge cost of the bridge justified such an arrangement.

But Scotland on Sunday can reveal that Chief Secretary to the Treasury Yvette Cooper has rejected the Holyrood Government's plea to get an advance on the money it receives in its annual £30bn budget.

In a move sure to escalate tensions between Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown, she declared that the Treasury could not provide credit to any Government department when its budget plans for the coming years have not even been set.

The move means the Scottish Government will have to pay for the bridge using existing funds.

The SNP insisted last night it would honour its pledge to build the bridge by 2016, but warned this would divert funds from new schools, hospitals, roads and rail services. Many projects might now be delayed for years.

The impasse sparked a fierce political fight last night as Labour accused the SNP of "incompetence" for failing to guarantee funding for the bridge alongside its other plans. But the SNP hit back, saying the Treasury's decision was "ridiculous and totally unnecessary".

The need for a new crossing was identified after it emerged that the road bridge is corroding. Last month SNP ministers unveiled plans to build a new crossing, which will carry cars, vans and lorries, with buses allowed to keep using the existing bridge.

Ministers ruled out using a controversial public-private partnership to fund the project, claiming such deals line the pockets of private financiers. Meanwhile, its favoured funding method – the not-for-profit Scottish Futures Trust – has yet to produce results.

In a letter to Swinney obtained by Scotland on Sunday, Cooper tells the SNP that the Treasury cannot fill the breach by advancing cash from future budgets, declaring that the idea is not a "credible option".

She adds: "The UK-wide public spending framework does not allow for bringing forward spending in this way to fund major infrastructure projects."

However, Cooper says that UK ministers want to respond "constructively" and suggests several options for the SNP.

She recommends that the Scottish Government saves cash over the next few years, diverts funds from its other spending priorities or uses PPP.

Last night a leading independent expert said the SNP should now back PPP, previously known as the private finance initiative (PFI). Public finance expert Professor Irvine Lapsley, director of the Institute of Public Sector Accounting at Edinburgh University, said: "The SNP were always on a hiding to nothing with this plan. It was never going to happen, particularly with the amount of borrowing that the Treasury is taking on at present.

"I think PFI is now the most obvious road to go down. The SNP has had some big reservations about money going to private financiers, but the Treasury has recently tightened up the rules on PFI, aware that in a time of recession it didn't want to see excessive profits being made, so the reasons for the SNP to be so dogmatic about PFI have now weakened somewhat."

But the SNP Government yesterday insisted that a PFI/PPP deal was dead in the water, and said that the bridge plan would go ahead using cash from planned budgets and reserves. But officials conceded the decision would have a knock-on effect on other projects.

An aide to Swinney said: "Obviously, the implication of refusing this commonsense request is that other projects must take their place in the queue, which is ridiculous and totally unnecessary.

"This negative response is a spectacular own goal by the Treasury – it provides a compelling argument for the Scottish Government to have borrowing powers and full financial responsibilities. It is a crass blunder following the planned £1bn cut in Scotland's budget, and also suggests that the Treasury have only a vague understanding of the issues."

Officials declined to say which other projects might be delayed as a result of the bridge plan. However, projects the Scottish Government is committed to include the building of the new Southern General Hospital in Glasgow, the £4bn dual carriageway from Perth to Inverness and a major upgrade of the A82 between Glasgow and Fort William.

Swinney admitted last month there was a possibility the new bridge might "eat into other capital areas". Shadow finance secretary Andy Kerr last night called for a guarantee from the SNP that the new Forth road bridge would go ahead.

He said: "The Scottish Government's failure to deliver a credible funding model for the new bridge, which necessitated their appeal for help from the Treasury, calls their basic competence into question.

"The SNP's problem is that they have ruled out PPP for ideological reasons and they can't make their Futures Trust work. Mr Swinney is out of his depth and blaming the UK won't wash; this is a problem made in Scotland by the SNP."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 January 2009 10:55 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Forth Bridges
 
1

webwise,

Scotland 03/01/2009 21:45:41
Well, the UK Government are prepared to throw money at anything and everything it seems - just nowhere near Scotland. Funny how the London Olympics appears to have a bottomless pit of funding !!

Capital projects of this nature are now even more critical as the economic meltdown compounded by Brown continues. It is clear that Brown is adopting a scattergun approach with his attacks on the SNP. His approach appears to be that if the Scottish people are to be 'collateral damage' then so be it.

It is fast approaching time for those who control the Scottish press to say "enough" and hold Brown to account for these spitefull decisions.
2

webwise,

Scotland 03/01/2009 21:59:41
Having re-read this article my original anger has increased. How dare these patronising incompetents have the nerve to refuse the democratically elected Government of Scotland the right to bring forward funding, whilst at the same time denying the same government the right to borrow.

This country, Scotland, can underwrite tens of billions of borrowing through our tremendous natural resources. This economic crisis has been compounded by decisions taken by Unionists at Westminster and now they refuse to take the necessary steps that might just cushion the misery that thousands of Scots will face.

Worse than that are those Labour inadequates who purport to represent working class Scots at Holyrood. These people should be pilloried for backing such a stance.

The statements from them are vomit inducing:
Shadow Finance Secretary Andy Kerr last night called for "a guarantee from the SNP that the new Forth road bridge will go ahead."

Labour accused the SNP of "incompetence" for failing to guarantee funding for the bridge alongside its other plans.

Who plans for a spitefull vendetta laden administration run by another Scot?

Who can plan for a Labour party that are hell bent on sabotaging a democratically elected Government?

These cretinous self serving halfwits do not deserve another vote, not one !!

I urge all readers to vote SNP at the next and every election until we gain independence.
3

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/01/2009 22:44:01
1 webwise,Scotland 03/01/2009 21:45:41
Well, the UK Government are prepared to throw money at anything and everything it seems - just nowhere near Scotland. Funny how the London Olympics appears to have a bottomless pit of funding !!
=========================================================
Yes of course, that why the Government bailed out Scotlands 2 biggest banks and 2 biggest employers.

They only gave RBS £20 Billion (so far) and HBOS up to £17 Billion.
4

,

03/01/2009 22:44:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

webwise,

Scotland 03/01/2009 23:11:49
A comment at number 3 mentions HBOS and RBS.

I think this poster will find that these are not capital projects and that one of the banks (HBOS) has been taken over. One of the reasons for the banking crisis was the lack of regulation under Brown. Yesterday it was reported that the £37 billion bailout has failed and that more is being considered.

The subject I am commenting on is capital projects, i.e. construction and building. I am angered that a Westminster government has refused to co-operate with the Scottish government in bringing forward funding for the such a project.

The comment at number 4 is one of the reasons for the continual disintegration of Scotsman comments, I am not at all sure what response is hoped for.
6

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/01/2009 23:23:50
The poster at number 5 says that this story is about capital projects which it is. However the money has to come from somewhere. And for this poster to say that

So it is more than a bit disingenuous to say "Well, the UK Government are prepared to throw money at anything and everything it seems - just nowhere near Scotland"

Up to £37 Billion has been given to both Scottish Banks as previously stated.

Because the SNP scrapped PFI, and introduced the Scottish Futures Trust, which no one understands, (least of all the hapless John Swinney) is not Westminsters fault.

And as for the response at number 4, all I can say is

"I urge all readers to vote Unionist Parties at the next and every election" (A meaningless statement I am sure you will agree)

7

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:03:38
If the English would only stop spending money on heating for it's old age pensioners and send the money saved up to scotland, then at least two bridges could be built..
8

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 00:10:46
Comrade Broon's plans to save the world have collapsed.

More billions need poured into London.

Britain is bankrupt.

We can't borrow any more without selling the Royal Mail, the NHS and last remaining bits of infrastructure.

Aye you showed the world how to do it Comrade Broon.
You are a certifiable clown (a bit like Rufus)
Bring on the election!!
9

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 00:26:12
#6 Rufus-T-Firefly

The £2.3bn capital spending investment, if you care to read a bit more carefully, would come not out of any precious Olympics or London infrastructure investmentout, but out of Holyrood's own pocket money scheduled to be allocated in future.

Mind you Whitehall seems to have no problem spending more than the country's GDP in financing whatever takes the London Sunday supplements' fancy.

Scotland just doesn't make it, unless of course there's marginal elections in the offing.

Aye and the banks, H.M. Treasury is set to make a killing on the markets when it sells it's % of these banking shares to the first Johnny-come-lately with the dosh to take them off their hands. Hedge-funders eat your hearts out.
10

,

04/01/2009 00:26:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:27:49
Southside Jimmy, you should pay more attention to detail.

I said

"They only gave RBS £20 Billion (so far) and HBOS up to £17 Billion."

That is correct I am afraid.

From the Telegraph

"The Government will pay £20billion for a controlling stake of up to 60 per cent in RBS, and £17billion for a 43.5 per cent share in a new 'superbank' created by the expected takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/3197936/Gordon-Brown-RBS-and-HBOS-bail-out-testament-to-strength-of-the-Union.html

I guess that either makes you careless or duplicitous.

12

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:30:44
Deary deary me so the UK Treasury can't provide credit facilities to the Scottish Government then. No surprise there, they are bust. Time we got our own prudential borrowing powers.
13

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:31:16


£12 BILLION wasted on a VAT cut

Brown has just scored a spectacular own goal with this one.

Bring it on
14

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:31:24
14 livilion,livingston 04/01/2009 00:26:12
Aye and the banks, H.M. Treasury is set to make a killing on the markets when it sells it's % of these banking shares to the first Johnny-come-lately with the dosh to take them off their hands.
=======================================================
REALLY?

What a master-stroke by Brown and Darling!

Saved the banks and created billions in revenue for the tax payers.

Financial genii.
15

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:33:49
Ahhhhhh secret agent Jimmy Le Pie, any news on the top secret waste dumping in Falkirk that you cunningly uncovered?
16

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:34:24
16 Rufus making an issue of the semi collapse of capitalism doesn't actually hurt the case for independence, it stregnthens it. Any Government that hands out billions to failed banks without having the savvy to really natioanlise them is a Government waiting to be voted out.
17

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 00:34:29
#15

You dyslexic Seamus???
18

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:35:03

Let me get this right, HM Treasury and the UK Government can change the rules ot bail out backs but not to fund what is probably the biggest Scottish project in a generation.

They can spend £12Billion ona VAT cut that has widely been acknowledged as absolutely pointless and indeed costing small business but they can't change their rules to allow SCOTTISH MONEY be spent on a once in a lifetime Scottish Project.

Brown has got a death wish at the next General Election

19

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:36:02
18 Yes, what was that about Wardog, he gave away revenue for nothing, absolutely zilch.
20

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 00:36:19
Rufus

As your memory isn't what it should be I'll remind you that the Daily Mail ran that story and I quoted it with a link.

AM2 should have a copy.
21

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:37:10
21 Observer, what you say flies in the face of Livilions comments.

He reckons the Government will make big profits out of the part ownership of the banks.

Do you reckon he is talking rot?
22

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:37:52
23 Why is he bailing out the banks rather than providing credit for infrastructure ? Because he is intensely relaxed about the filthy rich, and not that bothereed about bridges I reckon.
23

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:38:16
25 Jimmy Le Pie,04/01/2009 00:36:19
Rufus

As your memory isn't what it should be I'll remind you that the Daily Mail ran that story and I quoted it with a link.
======================================================

Thats a pity, I was giving you more credit than you were due.

Is it true? Have the lorries started arriving yet?
24

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:39:00
27 Observer,,Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:37:52
23 Why is he bailing out the banks
======================================================

Because if the banks went under then the whole economy would go under.
25

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:39:48
26 My view on the banks are a matter of record Rufus, don't go stirring it. I think they should be nationalised, and I know I am a minority voice.
26

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:40:02


I can't wait for my £5000 tax bill in 2010.
27

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:40:56
22# Yes a mild form, are you mocking the afflicted. I do my best amongst you superior intellects! Aye.
28

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:41:47


Hold on a minute, if the banks aren't lending how can you promote PPP?

I see SFT coming to fruition just at the right moment.

Flash Brown wrecking Scotland again with one of his tantrums.

Those old folk in Glenrothes must be so proud of Gordon


29

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:41:52
30 Observer,,Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:39:48
26 My view on the banks are a matter of record Rufus, don't go stirring it. I think they should be nationalised, and I know I am a minority voice.
==================================================
Observer I was not aware of that. But thats your view point, so fair enough.
30

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 00:42:20
Don't know if the lorries have started arriving yet, but us Scots will be the last to know.

But I'll do my very best to let everyone know how Comrade Broon and his cabal of idiots are shafting Scotland at every turn.

Bring on the election.
31

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 04/01/2009 00:45:22
There is no need for an additional Forth Crossing.
Road traffic growth has peaked and will decline in the future as global oil supplies dwindle in the wake of 'peak oil'. The current recession and financial turmoil is but a small wave in comparison to the tsunami that will hit when oil supplies, no doubt provoking resource wars, noticibly decline in the coming years.

A rational analysis would show that the existing structure is more than able to support the likely (declining) road traffic levels in the future and that two structures will be excessive.

The money would be better spent on transport infrastructure that can be sustained well into the future, that means new railways and electrification of existing lines.
32

,

04/01/2009 00:46:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:46:40


"....she declared that the Treasury could not provide credit to any Government department when its budget plans for the coming years have not even been set......"

Since when was the Scottish Government a 'department'?

If Mrs Ed Balls has made a whoopsy with this. all hell will break loose

34

Curley Bill,

04/01/2009 00:47:31
It is now apparent that Brown's New-New Labour has written off Scotland and are concentrating on Mittel England.
One wonders what the private polling results are telling them - how many new mobiles have been delivered to Downing Street?
We shouldn't be surprised - they started as they meant to go on with the Peterhead Carbon-capture debacle, then the refusal to give us control over our own elections, the Calman idiocy and now this.
This has the dead hand of the spiteful bully Broon draped over it and it will play well in the SouthEast as 'uppity' Scots being put in their place..
The comments of R-T-F and others on these boards, who defend such decisions, display no logic and are not worth debating with.
Does Broon and his cohorts (Murphy, Gray, Alexander et al) think England will want them at the next Election, for they sure are going to get cuffed in Scotland, if decisions like this keep coming North - they are such fools.

35

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:47:33
Hey Wardog, I cant wait until 2017 when each household will be £10,000 a year better off.

36

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:49:20


£10,000 a year better off........ will you be in an independent scotland per chance?

You are aware that the Government have confirmed that Tax will be rising to pay for the borrowing, I see that Darling is about to borrow even more because Labour's 'fiscal stimulus' has failed.


37

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:51:24

from the times.....

Gordon Brown has called an emergency summit of cabinet colleagues, business leaders and trade unions to decide how to cope with the swelling army of the unemployed. Experts say that as many as one in 10 workers could be laid off if the government fails to kick-start the economy, pushing the level of unemployment above 3m. The government is preparing to:

¤ Pay firms to take on more apprentices than they need to meet current labour demands..... Higher taxes again as we subsidise the market...

¤ Pour taxpayers’ money into creating “green” industries to generate jobs.
" Scottish Government is way ahead of the gamne on this"

¤ Inject huge sums of infrastructure spending into the transport system.
"except in Scotland apparently"

¤ Offer emergency loans on a case-by-case basis to car makers that face collapse.
....BILLIONS




BROWN HAS BANKRUPT BRITIAN

38

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:53:47
Wardog, no not in an independent Scotland.

John Swinney promised it with no caveats.

So do you think it will be £1000 a year rising to £10K by 2017.

Or do you think that it will suddenly happen when we reach 2017?
39

Observer,,

04/01/2009 00:54:42
38 Oh I think she has made a mistake and I think it's the word ''credit'' as much as aything else. The UK have a very bad credit rating I think she has just let slip, as if we didn't know.
40

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:54:54

quote please rufus
41

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:57:45
Rufus - why can't the Treasury provide credit facilities to build a simple bridge when their Lord and Master is a financial superman - allegedly.
42

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 00:59:25


This smacks of increasing desperation by a government that said it had sorted things out – but its solutions are clearly not working,
43

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 00:59:28
Southside Jimmy, read the post it says;

" up to "

Do you understand?

" up to"

20 Billion to RBS

then 17 million to HBOS/Lloyds

Therefore that is "UP TO £37 Billion" going to the 2 Scottish Banks.

Cant you comprehend that?

It is like communicating with an imbecile.
44

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 00:59:32
#19 Rufus-T-Firefly

And the point you appear to willfully miss?

£bns to Brown and Darling for doing he-haw but get us into the keech in the first place with their ending of 'Tory' boom-and-bust economics, pawning off everything and anything pawnable as they went.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/business/trading-floor/3078296/the-true-extent-of-britains-debt.thtml

Money for everything but giving us an advance on our own allowance, when their own magic Keynesian economic formulae are based on bringing forward capital investment in infrastructure projects.
Go figure...
45

peteedinburgh,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 01:00:53
So let me get this right. Alex Salmond makes a habit of picking a fight with Westminster at every opportunity and we all cheer and say well done - keep the Saltire flying there.

Then when he asks to bring funding forward they tell him to sod off and stop being an awkward wee sod.

Boo hoo!

Maybe a more collaborative approach from Holyrood rather than constant attempts at one upmanship would be more productive.
46

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 01:01:01
Wardog, will have it in a minute
47

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:01:42
49 Pedantry is not really an explanation for why the UK Treasury has no credit facility for Scottish infrastructure is it.
48

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:02:53
51 I think the story here is that the Treasury is bust dear, do pay attemtion.
49

Gorach,

Oban 04/01/2009 01:03:51
Scots all around the world will send momey to an SNP government.
All Salmond has to do is ask.
50

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 01:05:09
Wardog

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2007/11/11/snp-vow-to-make-scots-10k-richer-78057-20091669/
51

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:05:48


Rufus, here you go.

"...an independent Scotland, matching the 4% average growth rate of other small European countries, by 2017..Each household, said Mr Swinney, would be £10,000 a year better off....."

BBC November 2007

Funnily enough in the same piece, Wendy aAlexander wa flapping her gums....

"...She listed her disappointments: no 1,000 extra police, no class size reductions, no student debt relief, no council tax freeze, no annual climate change targets......"

Student Graduate Endowment Abolished
£500 Million put into Student Grants for PArt-Time Students
Consultation started on wider role of grants replacing loans
Police Numbers are on Target with 450 employed
Class sizes are indded reducing in many areas
Council Tax frozen for TWO YEARS so far
Annual Climate Change Targets set and the toughest Targets in the World


Wendy never was very good was she.


52

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:07:46

56. Oh dear Rufus

Read the Sunday mails version and then read the BBC's version fo events to see just HOW BAD the mail is.

I'm afraid I can't take soemone seriously that quotes from the record or sunday mail son......



53

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 01:07:49
47 Observer
>>why can't the Treasury provide credit facilities to build a simple bridge when their Lord and Master is a financial superman - allegedly. <<

From The Spectator:
The true extent of Britain's debt
Fraser Nelson
Wednesday, 10th December 2008
"How much is Britain’s true national debt?

Gordon Brown says 37% of GDP, the ONS says 43% of GDP – but this is just government debt.
The reason Britain is in so much trouble is that our corporate and household debts are huge. It is the combination that makes us such a credit liability – but no one has ever put together a combination.

Until now.

Michael Saunders from CitiGroup has calculated ‘external debt’ – ie, what Britain owes the rest of the world.
It is not 40% but 400% of GDP, the highest in the G7 by some margin.
The next down, France, is 176%. America, flagellating itself for blowing such a debt bubble, is just 100%. Japan is about half America."

The rest of the article is here:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/business/trading-floor/3078296/the-true-extent-of-britains-debt.thtml
54

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:08:10

Here you go rufus.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7099163.stm
55

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:09:42
51.

Let me get this straight

It's now the SNP's fault for a decision made by Hm Treasury.

Started drinking early tonight eh?
56

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 01:10:58
Wardog look here.

Swinney is going to do it "as part of a 10-year economic strategy to make households £10,000 a year better off."

It is nothing to do with independence.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7089402.stm
57

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:11:59


HEADLINE: BROWN SCUPPERS FORTH ROAD BRIDGE

The strange thing is that it's Glenrothes that will lose out through this.

And the Popst office will be privatised anyway.

Well done those in Glenrothes that voted to keep Labour

You must be so so so proud of the big belter.
58

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:14:06

62. Rufus

"..look here...."

I did, it says

"repeated their target of raising Scotland's economic growth rate from the present 2.3% to the UK level of 3% by 2011...."

That's their stint in Govenrment Rufus....

"...And then they had a dream: an INDEPENDENT Scotland, matching the 4% average growth rate of other small European countries, by 2017......"




I'll accept your apology for wasting my time rufus, probably best for you to log off with the tail between your legs though

That is your tail isn't it!
59

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 01:14:23
63 Wardog™,

Yes Wardog, if the people in Glenrothes had voted for SNP then no doubt they would all be supplied with teleportation machines that would allow them to materialise and dematerialise back and forward over the Forth!
60

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:14:38
59 Yes I have read that article it is absolutely petrifying when you read about the UK's consolidated debt. How the hell was that allowed to happen.
61

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 01:16:37
64 Wardog™,04/01/2009 01:14:06

Read this link, it does not mention independence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7089402.stm

It says

"The Scottish Government is to start a consultation in the next few weeks on replacing council tax with a local income tax.
Finance Secretary John Swinney said the plan is part of a 10-year economic strategy to make households £10,000 a year better off."

No mention of independence.

I'll accept your apology for wasting my time wardog, probably best for you to log off with the tail between your legs though

That is your tail isn't it!


62

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:17:00

65 rufus

I can sense your own disappointment with this decision, like the banks fiasco, Brown is really letting Scotland down...... the public see this.

That's the dangerous thing about fundamentalist unionist, you'd happily make scotland suffer to stay in the union.....

People won't stand for it.

I predict landslide SNP victories on the back of this and the coming Labour cuts to services....
63

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 01:17:38
Southside Jimmy, give up.

I demolished your petty, incorrect argument and I am not going to waste any more time on it.
64

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 01:17:56
47 Observer

From your namesake a year ago, the figure of £1,100bn quoted then is now over £2,000bn and rising fast:

"Treasury debt is twice Chancellor's 'sustainable' figure", says think-tank

Heather Stewart,
Observer economics correspondent
Sunday 4 February 2007

"Gordon Brown has hidden liabilities worth more than £500bn, and the true size of the public debt is up to 87 per cent of GDP, more than twice the Treasury's 'sustainable' limit, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

Using the government's calculations for the cost of public sector pensions, private finance initiative schemes, and Network Rail's debt, which the Treasury guarantees, the think-tank has reached a total figure of more than £1,100bn - twice what the Treasury admits to.

The IFS's Christine Frayne said the £100bn-worth of PFI payments the government has signed up to were not the same as debts, because Whitehall might be able to negotiate them down in future, But she argued that the Treasury's calculations fail to represent the government's true fiscal position. 'It would be nice to see these liabilities taken into account in some way,' she said..."
65

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 01:18:33
Okay Wardog, Gotta Go.
66

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:18:46


68 Rufus

oh I see, so because it doesn't say independence specifically but the common sense conclusion would be that post referendum in 2011 they must be speaking about an independent Scotland you'll just ignore that.

FFS rufus.

If you want to be taken serious, try debating properly,

AM2 would be embarrassed by your lack of rigour
67

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:19:27

72 Just like your mentor AM2, gotta go when your proven to be incompetent

68

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:20:09
71 That's the real story here. A Treasury (who we all pay taxes to) unable to forward credit for a bridge.

And this is just the start.
69

Rasco,

04/01/2009 01:21:46
Come on all you unionist people read the article in the Sunday Herald about the extra money Ingraham is making he can start buying scratch cards like Fu++kse to help with the Games in Glasgow.As for B and D helping Scotland no chance we do remember Blair would not congratulate Alex Salmond on winning the election and Broon said he would not work with the SNP.Broon will save the world but in his hate of the SNP Scotland is not part of his world.
70

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:22:23
74 Maybe he'll set up a blog like AM2 did, at least that's funny. Hilarious in fact.
71

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:25:37

77 Aye, finally had a peep at and I notice he's quoting us all on it but in his own odious style, purposely framing quotes ina bad light.

AM2 is a weasel unionist


72

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 01:25:41
63 Wardog
Be fair WD, did Gordon Brown not single handedly save the entire world economy by his insight into 1920s Labour history?

Given that, the good people of Glenrothes would be ungrateful indeed had they spurned his election pleas to give him a last chance to save his job?
73

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:27:32

The Liberal case for greater fiscal levers has ably been demonstrated by the Treasury's obstinance. Labour will find very few friends with this tack.

PFI is about to hit the buffers coming on balance sheet when the full horror of the debt will be revealed.

Brown is breaking Britain's back.


74

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:27:52
79 I view his blog as a tribute act.
75

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:29:30

80. Livilion

Aye indeed, the one "Who saved the World'

Wait and see the posters that come from that gaffe.

Seriously though, the folk in Glenrothes must surely be bil'n that they supported this nonsense.....

Privatised Post Office
Risking the Forth Road Bridge
Interest Rates decimating pensions


it's a shameful deceit of relatively vulnerable people.
76

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:30:38
78 Yes Cynicus fiscal autonomy and borrowing powers are a pretty good idea, I have been chuntering on about that myself a bit. HNY.
77

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:31:31

82 Gawd, AM2?

http://www.spotlight-theatre.co.uk/Joe%20Bosworth.JPG
78

Observer,,

86 04/01/2009 01:36:59
86 GN 2 u 2.
79

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:37:35
66# I am sitting here petrified Ob wae ma gless a wine in ma haun. The BRITISH ROYAL ENGINEERS could build a pontoon bridge over the Forth nae bother. Personally I would not build a new bridge. People have to use public transport. That old rail bridge is under used. Get the fatties oot the cars.
80

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:40:52
There is now a pattern growing to SNP posting. They seem to sleep together. That is why Observer is half Jewish.
81

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:42:15
88 Actually you're right I don't agree with the bridge in the first place, I'm just arguing a principle.

I'm just waiting for Labour to use all their workfare people to build at a la the bridge on the river kwai.
82

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:43:34
90 Cheap shot dear, try harder.
83

Sanny,

04/01/2009 01:43:36
Our post war (WWII) history shows that the unionist governments will do virtually anything to prevent Scotland becoming an independent Nation. Therefore I believe the time is rapidly approaching when Scotland may need to resort to a UDI. The alternative may be to follow the Irish route. That would almost certainly bring pressure from Europe and is likely to again favour the Scottish position. The current behaviour of Westminster is that of an Undeclared War on Scotland.

We should not be asking for full financial autonomy, we should be demanding it! For those who insist on voting Labour, in the mistaken belief that it is still a Socialist party, may I remind you that until 1955 Home Rule for Scotland was a principle policy of the Labour Party. It was the Welshman, Kinnock, who removed it. Labour voters should write to their MP’s before the next election and ask them their views on restoring the ‘Home Rule’ policy making it clear that if it is not restored then they will not vote Labour.
84

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 01:48:48

90 Samelus

Have you been drinking the old fortified wine again, polishing off the christmas port?
85

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:51:59
96 He really shouldn't post when he drinks, but it's like your embarrassing Uncle at a wedding, you've just got to live with it.
86

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 01:55:36
#78 Cynicus in Exile

The government during Thatcher's reign knew this bridge had to be replaced, it actually opened a replacement for the weakened Severn Crossing over a decade ago, flagged up at the same time with the corrosion issues on the Forth.

It was Labour in Scotland who put the Forth project into the long grass, remember Union Joke promising to look at a feasability study if his Holyrood Executive was re-elected last May?

I think I commented at the time that: he was already in power, get on with it now.

Sadly he didn't heed my advice and his old bosses are remaining true to form.

Personally I reckon the First Minister should send a thankyou note to the PM for his work on hastening Scottish non-dependence.
87

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 01:59:33
95# The Union could build bridges and open up the country to the common man(sorry forgot the PC, person.)Telfer ETC. The SNP are lost. Time for them to resign. You know it makes sense. Please go SNP, leave. Iceland your favourite country will welcome you. You are finished. Take the hint,GO. Dae us a favour, GO. F,OFF.
Stop sponging, Salmund, Swiney and Surgeon, GO.
88

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:01:28
Expenses ? Way too much. That level of embedded-inness with the security industry is why we are walking into an Orwellian state.
89

,

04/01/2009 02:02:37
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90

,

04/01/2009 02:02:59
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91

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 02:05:53
100. Silly Shamelus

But the 'union' hasn't built any bridges, Labour were in power in Scotland for r two terms Shamelus, remember.......

I know it;s hard with such great statesmen like erm, um.....
92

Shamus,

GLASGOW 04/01/2009 02:07:00
96# I have been known tae tak a small libation on a hot summer or cold winter day. In fact any day that takes ma fancy. Its great being British. Ye can dae whit ye want. Unlike they Islamic Fascists you cuddle up tae!
93

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 02:07:18
88 Shamus,Glasgow
This fatty might get oot his car if you will kerry his tools and get him to work as quick and as cheeply when my customers want me as the car does.

As for the rail bridge, it is single track is it not? making it easy - how are you going to link it to say Ocean Terminal or Baxters at Kelty as efficiently as for example the distributors' wagons based at the Newbridge industrial estates?
94

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:09:47
102 Traquir ''forced annihlation of the Bank of Scotland''

I am no fan of the banks and the BoS had mo more moral right to survive than any other.

But the take-over of that bank and the psychological damage that Peter Mandleson thinks will go with it is forced.

There was no bloody need after the bail-out announcement for the merger to go through. The Governments own agency in the form of the OFT warned against it.

We nationalists are oft accused of being paranoid - well, sometimes your paranoia is real.
95

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04/01/2009 02:15:02
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96

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:15:12
105# They did build a bridge over Titwood Road, Glasgow during their term. And the squinty bridge. And another wan almost complete near Jamaica St, Glasgow. I do not know of any others outside Glasgow. OH sorry the new wan at Kincardine that wee Alec opened on behalf of Labour. Must be merr aboot the country. You have been oot of touch as you said earlier!
97

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 02:19:16
108 Col. Blimp­IV*,
Naughty man, wash your mouth out with soap, you are just as bad as Honest Tony.

If you really want to do some damage just abandon your car anywhere on a road inside the M25, preferably with some Eastern religious material on view inside the vehicle.
98

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:20:30
105 they never built any bridge over Titwood Road they just shored the existing one up - all smoke and mirrors and you have fallen for it. And the squinty bridge was because of the BBC and broke almost as soon as it was opened. That's Labour for you.
99

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:22:36
soz 113 was for 111
100

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:22:44
Do the SNP Lawyers and middle class students know what bricks and mortar are. It is the materiel that builds hooses. You know hooses, buit by working class people, ever heard of them. The place you live in while sponging from the British taxpayer. WHIT A MOB OF WASTERS YOU ARE. Time for a Unionist revolution. Maybe Hamas could lob a few rockets towards you and waken you up.
101

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:26:13
113# Wrong New Bridge and widened. You are supposed tae be an Observer not an SNP APOLOGIST.
102

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:28:32
115 Time for you to go to bed. Yours is the party that voted against suspending the right to buy on social housing. Yours is the party that have mortgaged the country up to its eyeballs in debt because they didn't believe in the public sector. Don't you call us middle class your lot are intensely relaxed about the filthy rich and prove that on a daily basis.
103

Shamus,

GLASGOW 04/01/2009 02:33:10
113# Just to explain OB. The bridge was propped up. A new structure put in place. Old bridge removed. New wider bridge in place. Stick tae the kitchen Ob. Bridges are fur men.
104

subrosa,

04/01/2009 02:36:06
# 103

Traquir - you omitted Bradford and Bingley, another English finance business.
105

,

04/01/2009 02:37:47
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106

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:38:10
119 It's next to Morrisons shamus, shopping is for women you old mysiginist you, I watched it being shored up. They shored up the foundation and built a new surface. That's what they did.
107

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 02:47:21
119 Shamus,GLASGOW
Aye congrats to the Glasgow's Labour council for replacing that early Victorian construction after it was found unsafe in 2001 to carry 40tonne hgvs,was condemned and had a 3tonne weight limit imposed on it.

Presumably we are to be grateful the council didn't just let it fall down?
108

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:53:06
124 The interesting thing about bridges is that the Kingston bridge is completely unsafe and could collapse any moment. I never travel on it. Anyway on that happy note I will leave, good night.
109

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 02:55:19
122# Therefore a new bridge wummin. Put the kettle oan fur f sake. Just ordinary working class T fur me.
110

,

04/01/2009 02:56:58
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111

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 03:02:43
124# The Bridge was the responsibility of British Rail. When the Tories (friends of the Snp) privatised the railways they lumbered the councils in Britain with bridge restoration. This was so that the pals of the Tories could make maximum profit. Wake up grow up livy person read and learn.
112

,

04/01/2009 03:06:05
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113

,

04/01/2009 03:35:24
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114

Jimbo2,

04/01/2009 03:40:08
For those who actually believe that Labour haven't screwed the economy (again), check out this article from the International Herald Tribune (The Global Edition of the New York Times):

"Bank liabilities in the United States are about 20 percent of the size of the economy. In Britain, the figure is 285 percent.

Ask yourself then what might happen to Britain."

tinyurl.com/7bnjxk


115

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 03:53:49
#128 Shamus,Glasgow

So who was calling the shots while the railways were nationalised from 1948 and since when did British Rail maintain road bridges?

What friends and admirers of the tories invites the Milk Snatcher to tea at No10?

Who wants to give Thatcher a State funeral not even given to the late Queen Mother?

The same champagne socialist ex-public schoolboys and girls who say anyone who can afford to pay for it can have higher education and first class health care and suggest if you fall on hard times the government will lend you some dole at ten times the current BoE base rate.

The SNP don't need any lectures about tartan Tories from one of Maggie's lovechildren.
116

,

04/01/2009 04:07:51
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117

Rodster,

Dubai 04/01/2009 05:06:51
This is nothing more or less than Brown yet again punishing the peo-lpe of scotland for not electing a Labour mouthpiece executive .
The audacity of the Scottish Nation to elect their own SNP government shall at all occassions be punished by the Quisling.
He promised capital projects would be brought forward to ease the affects of his induced recession.
Not in Scotland it would seem.
London Olympics no problem , now all you Unionist apologists can spin , and lie and cringe as much as you like, however the Scottish people are not as dumb as you and Quisling Brown and his cohorts think .
You shall reap what you sow
118

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 04/01/2009 05:25:50
#16 Roofarse

"They only gave RBS £20 Billion (so far) and HBOS up to £17 Billion."

The did not Give the banks the money, they invested the money and received shares in return.

#55 Gorach

"Scots all around the world will send momey to an SNP government. All Salmond has to do is ask."

I think there would be considerable appetite among foreign investors to purchase Scottish Government Bonds. However the current Devolution settlement prohibits the Scottish Government from exercising this power. Which is a bit ridiculous when you consider that even municipalities are allowed to issue bonds. This certainly needs to be changed.


119

,

04/01/2009 05:38:26
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120

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 04/01/2009 07:31:25
If Scotland brings in LIT, the treasury will with hold the Council Tax rebate portion of the block grant.

If Scotland tries to build much needed infrastructure, the treasury will not co-operate even though the Prime Minister has just announced plans to bring forward infrastructure projects.

All the while revenue from Scottish Oil Fields is the only thing keeping Westminster barely solvent.

It is absolutely clear that the Union is not working for Scotland.
121

allan58,

edinburgh 04/01/2009 07:39:11
Yes#6. Your comment is not only meaningless but, your anti-Scotland rant is the perfect excuse to encourage people NOT to vote "unionist".
I find it amusing that Westmidden cannot find money for a Forth bridge but, it CAN find ;
£37 billion to bail out banks
£16 billion for aircraft carriers for the Navy
£12 billion for the Olympics ( London of course!!)
£9 billion for the (London of course!!) crossrail project
£25 billion for a replacement for Trident submarines

I could go on of course. This situation would not of course occur in England - especially if an election were looming! Still, in every cloud there is a silver lining - perhaps Holyrood could divert funds from the Edinburgh tram debacle & finally kill this worthless project before it bankrupts Edinburgh & finncially ruins our local bus company?
122

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 07:39:18
This might be obvious but if Westminster is saying holyrood credit can’t be advanced unless it can show it has a set budget plan, then set in advance what you can and get credit on that basis, one year at a time if you must.
123

,

04/01/2009 07:41:38
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124

cabrach loon,

inverness 04/01/2009 07:41:50
Am I missing something? bank bailouts are loans and/ or share purchases, loans understood to be at 12% - usury of the worst time when Bank of England has reduced the base rate almost to zero - how can banks lend at less than 14% if loans are to be viable otherwise they are on a debt spiral?? AQll has to be repaid! So this funding is quite different from infrastrcture.
Where do these astoundingly high civils work costs come from - the French built the astonishing 2.5km long 4 lanes plus full shoulder Millau viaduct for 400M euros plus roadworks approaches.
Get the Indian or Chinese to do the job, using local labour.
125

cabrach loon,

inverness 04/01/2009 07:43:28
Oh yes and put a transit tax on every litre of oil and gas that is transported out of Scotland across Scottish soil or via Scottish pipeles etc. or just an export tax.
126

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 07:45:27
138-allan58-Read the article again and you will realise your error. All of the money you talk about has been given out to those who have been able to show the treasury a set budget plan for the future.
127

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 07:55:46
142-cabrach loon-Fantastic idea, though a little thing called pricing oneself out of the market might just spoil future plans, if indeed you were going to be around to follow them through.
128

fife runner,

04/01/2009 07:58:44
what about the money spent on the Jubilee line and the rail upgrade to Channel Tunnel.

Re RBS etc the money will be got back eventually. Anyway, RBS is a national bank employing 1000's over the country. One reason it went downhill was thanks to dodgy dealing on the LONDON exchange.
129

Ju@nkerr.,

04/01/2009 08:02:06
"15 Shamus,Glasgow 04/01/2009 00:26:26
The SNP ADMIN WILL PROBABLY RESIGN EARLIER THAN I EXPECTED. THEY KNOW THEY ARE INCOMPETANT. THEY JUST NEED AN HONERABLE RETREAT TO SAVE FACE."

On a story where his elected goverment, the UK Labour PArty, denies the democratically elected goverment of scotland their rightful share of capital expenditure, meanwhile throwing money at capital projects in middle England.

How the worms wriggle.

130

,

04/01/2009 08:02:35
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131

,

04/01/2009 08:03:15
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132

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 08:09:26
140-Guga II,-See no expenditure, set no expenditure, get no credit.
The nastyonallist party’s plans go askew, so they devise a cunning plan, rob peter to pay paul.
The nastyonallists have been spitting teeth since realising they couldn’t fund the plans they had put together.
Surely they do have a budget plan they could show the treasury.
133

,

04/01/2009 08:12:37
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134

,

04/01/2009 08:18:21
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Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 08:21:36
147 & 148-Traquir , Alba-I’m sure the light is on, but there definitely isn’t anyone at home. R-e-a-d t-h-e-s-e w-o-r-d-s “the Treasury could not provide credit to any Government department when its budget plans for the coming years have not even been set”
136

Phil1,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 08:26:42
webwise,Scotland 03/01/2009 21:45:41

As webwise in first post says the UK government throws money at anything and I agree HBOS and RBS should have been allowed to go bankrupt rather than being bailed ut by the UK taxpayer.

That is what you meant isn't it webwise? Or are you a member of the nasty party?
137

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 08:34:03
151-Traquir , Alba-If I am indeed on my knees it can only be down to me trying to work out why you have your head shoved where the sun doesn’t shine.
Nothing what you have put down even remotely suggests a future set budget plan. Hot air and good fortune stands for nothing when the figure don’t add up at the end of the day.
138

Ju@nkerr.,

04/01/2009 08:35:22
It woill be interesting to see what Broon spins on Andrew marr in half an hour? I hear he is waxing lyrical on pulling forward spending on projects in England whilst denyingthe same too Scotland.

The mans just plain petty and vindictive towards Scotland.
139

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

04/01/2009 08:43:01
Having just arrived at this thread I'd like to applaud Webwise for his or her excellent posts 1&2.

I note that shortly thereafter RTF2 and his dribbling cohorts do as they do on just about every thread and troll the subject matter away. There is no better example than that of W Smith at #150 who yet again uses a thread about government funding to promote his own special brand of Islamaphobia. How very sad and bitter a little man you must me W Smith.
140

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 08:43:41
Comrade Broon will do 'anything' to hang onto power.

New Labour Sleaze will do 'anything' to hang onto power.

These coming months are going to be scary.

These people are without scruple or morals.
141

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 08:51:01
“ Gordon Brown: I'll create extra 100,000 jobs
Government spending programmes brought forward to soften the effects of the economic crisis will provide at least 100,000 jobs, Gordon Brown said.”
(Daily Telegraph 22/12/08).

“In a letter to Swinney obtained by Scotland on Sunday, Cooper tells the SNP that the Treasury cannot fill the breach by advancing cash from future budgets, declaring that the idea is not a "credible option".

She adds: "The UK-wide public spending framework does not allow for bringing forward spending in this way to fund major infrastructure projects."
(SoS 04/01/09).

Are both of these statements mutually compatible?
Let the public decide!
142

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

04/01/2009 08:56:39
Jimmy, Warden, Traquair. My tuppence re Brown.

He continually talks this crisis up as if it's WW2 all over again with many references to the 'Blitz' spirit. I can imagine a potential Mandelson/Brown/Lib-Dem coalition 'against the oncoming depression'. Vince Cable has already issued a 'come and get me' plea in his 2009 Almanac in the Mail:

"There will be calls for a ‘government of national unity’, to get political adversaries round a table working together rather than pointing fingers at each other."

Frightening times.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/debate/article-1102201/Vince-Cables-2009-Almanac-The-battle-survival-tough-companies-bite-dust.html

143

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 09:03:35
#159 Gussie

Good post and exactly my thoughts.

These people must be clinically insane.

It's going to get dirty.
144

Mikey,

04/01/2009 09:12:51
So the money raised in Scotland is definitely not to be spent in Scotland? If anybody needed proof that this bunch of Westmonster socialites are a bunch of self serving gits, then here it is.

To the Laird of Freedonia and all his alter egos, time you left, boys! Go home to where you will be appreciated - somewhere like the Isle of Dogs and then you can REALLY become the little Englishmen you aspire to be!
145

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

04/01/2009 09:26:48
Chuffing flip, Brown is caked in make-up on the Marr show.
146

TWC,

04/01/2009 09:35:28
Westminster will do nothing for Scotland in case it appears that we are successful.
Brown is a traitor, he says they will spend an extra 10 Billion does that mean Scotland will get an extra 90 Million spend??
147

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 04/01/2009 09:36:48
#38 Wardog "Since when was the Scottish Government a 'department'?"

Ahh - is the lightbulb finally being switched on inside your head? There is no such thing as 'the Scottish Government' - there is only a devolved regional executive. Independent sovereign states have goverments. Scotland is not independent and it is not a sovereign state. It has no international border and no army navy or airforce to defend such a border. The UK IS an independent sovereign state and it DOES have an army airforce and navy with which it defends those borders. It also makes LAWS within those borders and Scotland sends 40 or so MPs to the UK parliament to make those laws.

Alex Salmond heads a minority cabinet within a devolved executive with limited powers - and disburses over £30,000.000.000 annually - the vast majority of which subsidy comes from the British taxpayer. If Salmond starts to believe his own PR spin and behaves like a Ruritanian emperor - commissioning bridges here, railways there, roads to the North - WITHOUT SECURING THE FUNDING FIRST - is it any wonder when the man holding the purse says "on your bike Alex - you never asked me whether HM treasury was prepared to pay for your fantasies". Nationalists should realise that REAL governments - even ones as stupid and incompetent as Brown's - have to work to agreed budgets and 'real' reserves - rather than imagined ones. You may believe its 'Scotland's Oil' - and you might be right: IF Scotland were independent; IF Scotland were a sovereign state with international recognition; IF Scotland had a navy and airforce to defend such oil fields; IF the international court at some future date recognised Scotland as a state and awarded territorial rights.

Nationalists need to differentiate between what IS and what MIGHT BE. So does Alex Salmond. Or he can continue to live in Cloud Cuckoo Land and weave elaborate daydreams of bridges, roads, free fish suppers for ever, and ever and ever and ever . . .
148

Florence,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 09:39:13
Yvette Cooper - penny-pinching when it comes to Scotland, but profligate with taxpayers' money when it comes to her and husband, Ed Ball's, housing expenses. No lack of funds there!
149

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 09:44:34
Can somebody explain to me the logic (or lack of it if that is the case) of John Swinney's argument.

He seems to have asked for a cash advance and since this is not forthcoming, other projects will be effected. But surely a cash advance, by definition, means that money will be taken from a future year or years which is bound to impact on the finance available for projects in those years anyway.
150

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 09:52:10
167 I don't think anyone is under the misapprehension that Scotland is a sovereign state, so your sneering post is uncalled for. But the Scottish government is responsible for capital spend on infrastructure, only without the borrowing powers to finance them, they are dependent on cash from Westminster.

What is happening here is that Westminster have refused a perfectly reasonable request for a credit facility to finance capital works, on the basis that the SG have not finalised their budget for the coming years. That is a ludicrous position to take as no Government can be expected to operate in such an inflexible manner.

Now either the Treasury are skint and can't afford the credit facility, or they are refusing the money for petty political reasons, or both. But the outcome is that pressure is being put on the SG to revert to the wasteful and shockingly expensive PFI method of funding.

That is the reality of the situation, however Labour want to dress it up.
151

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 09:52:21
Just watched Comrade Broon on the Andrew Mair programme.

I wish I had a Euro for every time Our Dear Leader used the word 'global'.

And he also claimed to have been calling for global regulation for nearly 10 years!!!

Clinically insane!!
152

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 09:54:47
169 With a cash advance he can spread the cost so that it doesn't have too big an impact on other commitments, that's what most people do.
153

The Tin Man,

04/01/2009 09:56:22
#169 Ugly

Quite possibly Swinney is lost and dosn't know what he is doing. Salmond thought that Scottish banks were doing spiffingly, 6 months ago.

Maybe we will all be driving over the Kincardine bridge due to political pig-headedness re. public-private-partnerships.

Anyway, at least the exec's Great New Plan to postpone new hospitals, schools, etc, etc, is on track.
154

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 09:59:24
173 so you just want to throw even more of our money away on PFI instead of prudential borrowing do you ? That seems a bit silly to me and most others.
155

Ju@nkerr.,

04/01/2009 10:00:48
171 - Jimmy Le Pie - or how many times he said it started in America. The man is unable to take responsibilty for his own part in this. I agree with the other posters it is going to get dirty and not a lot we can do now lawes of assembly and protest have been maxed up.

Start denying the British stae things like tax, TV livences, VAT, etc :-) is our only recourse.

156

watcher,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 10:01:03
This is just another Salmond made,war of words with Westminster and the SNP.
157

Ju@nkerr.,

04/01/2009 10:01:03
this keyboard sucks!
158

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 10:01:29
Does anyone know who "Scottish Labour chief David Stewart" is???

I thought Jim Murphy, assisted by office boy, Iain Grey were the dream team?

From today's Observer.


http://tinyurl.com/7s9ze4
159

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 10:04:01
176 It's just another attempt by Labour to force the Scottish government into wasting even more money on PFI. You might support flushing tax payers money down the toilet but you are in a minority
160

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

04/01/2009 10:08:08
A better question that Ms Cooper could answer, would be whether Treasury ownership of the banks should lead to improved terms for PFI contracts between public bodies and those banks in which the UK Government now owns shares or not?
161

GMCD,

04/01/2009 10:11:02
Swinney's accounting skills are as good as usual...cost a new bridge witout securing the funds first....DOOOH!
Then rip the money out of schools and other services

Of course this isn't about bridge building (in so many ways), the SNP could not care less about the forth bridge or transport (or the economy)this is another carefully worked oppportunity to blame the UK gov for their failings....the SNP delivering for Scotland or recklessly playing politics????
162

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 10:15:40
Gordon Brown said "I will do everything necessary to maintain the Union."
This is just another example of the Parish Council financial borrowing powers granted to the Scottish Government under the Scotland Act.
Our government is completely at the mercy of the London Government in this and all other respects.
Time to get up and go our own way.
163

walter,

04/01/2009 10:27:36
It seems to be the way of the SNP to promise to spend money they do not have.
The money already allocated to the trams and agreed on they promised to spend elsewhere, the money from council tax rebates even though they intend to scrap CT meaning the rebate money would not exist they promised to spend elsewhere.
Now we are told the money to build the new forth bridge does not exist.
Yet again what do we hear? we made the promise to spend money we did not have but don't blame us BLAME OTHERS for us not being able to deliver on our promises.
Then again credit where credit is due they intend to build this bridge even though they cannot burden future administrations with a reduction in funding.
So how do they intend to fund it? With their Not for Profit SFT? No.
They intend to fund it by diverting funds from new schools, hospitals, roads and rail services ensuring the people of Scotland suffer.
They and their supporters will have the audacity (as has been seen in previous comments)to blame others.


164

,

04/01/2009 10:32:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
165

Nikostratos,,

04/01/2009 10:32:44
#182 GMCD


"this is another carefully worked oppportunity to blame the UK gov for their failings.."

True the fact is the snp are the grievance party that is all they can offer having run out of steam, honeymoon period over. Unable to deliver on all the unsustainable and reckless promises they have made and continue to make.. they do what it says in the name SNP..look to foment grievance dissension and hate....
166

Micropacer,

04/01/2009 10:33:26
The SNP should be more careful in what the promise and how they promise it. They have a habit of promising things we know immediately cannot be supplied - this breaks and trust.

However this is good news for the SNP and their supporters - its an obvious attempt to kick them in the gonads which is also a kick to Scotlands gonads.

This is the type of play that dragged a dominante Labour party down in Scotland and its good to see its back.

It may sway a few more voters away from the decreped decaying corpse that is Labour.
167

Damjam,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 10:34:56
Yes its Comrade Broons belief that we spend our way out of this climate but not in Scotland pity the financial experts did'nt listen to this man intead of laughing at him and saying he was talking rubbish look at the clip and judge for yourself
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw&feature=related
168

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 10:37:14
#167 Tweedmouth

EXCELLENT POST!
169

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 10:45:17
#183
“How dare the SNP put future Scottish government in hock by taking a 20 year 'sub'...”

Far better to line the pockets of Labour’s pals and donors from within the building and construction industry and allow them to make excessive PFI profits by building sub-standard huts and call them hospitals and schools.
170

Rufus-T-Firefly,

04/01/2009 10:46:07
#140 Goo Goo Ga Ga

How are your human rights today?

I see you made a post so does that mean you are not taking the Scotsman to the European Courts?

HeHe
171

James, Edinburgh,

04/01/2009 10:47:28
What's the bet that, about six weeks before the next election with Labour looking at the polls(especially in what they've got left of Fife)will suddenly find cash for the new Forth Bridge. They'll also want to keep thier lackies in West Lothian on board.
172

The Strategist,

04/01/2009 10:53:52
What this actually tells us is that Labour's priority is to ensure a return to the pre credit crunch position where financial services dominated. Hence, the spending of the vast majority of taxpayer's money on the bank bail out rather than on real industry.

In Brown's scenario Scottish industry is of no importance so it doesn't need improved transport links.
173

,

04/01/2009 11:00:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 11:02:40
The Scottish Government's plans are just too ambitious, especially in the present economic climate?

It is highly unlikely the new Forth Crossing will be delayed in view of the concerns about the condition of the existing Bridge.

In view of the lack of support for a Scottish Futures Trust, IF the Nationalist Government is still in office after the next Holyrood Elections, and can't raise the public money for a new bridge, it will just have to eat humble pie and choose a tender for a PPP design, build and manage contract.

Should another Labour/Lib-Dem coalition be returned to power it will undoubtedly choose a PPP contract.
Tolls rates on a similar PFI toll bridge, the Second Severn Crossing in Wales, currently vary between £5.30 for cars to £15.90 for buses and lorries.

Next decade, the Scottish motoring public will be in for even higher toll fees by the time a new PPP Forth Crossing is completed.
175

ricky40,

04/01/2009 11:16:26
188 Nikostratos

Interested in your comment "They do what it says in the name (SNP) look to foment(sic) grievance dissension and hate ...".

Can I draw your attention to two blogs? One is unashamedly unionist as the name Scottish Unionist suggests. The other, Advanced Media Watch, is unashamedly SNP.

Can I suggest you read articles and comments on each and tell us which one is designed to "forment grievance dissention and hate"?

Can I ask you who prints the more balanced view-point?

Can I ask you why you comment on one more than the other?
176

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 11:20:35
Who will section this man?

He is completely mad.
177

ricky40,

04/01/2009 11:21:04
185 sm753

Is there not already a precedent for county councils having "accelerated funding"?

Do you really regard Scotland as a "county council"?
178

greentiger,

UK 04/01/2009 11:22:13
Webwise; (comment 5) Perhaps one of the reasons was the lack of government oversight, however the major reason was that these two Scottish banks were extremely poorly run and had a fatally floored business model. They should have been allowed to go bust, and another bank (HSBC etc) pick up the pieces. But no, this is Scotland so the rest of the UK has to step in and spend billions, yet again, (failed ship building, failed steel, failed coal, failed IT, failed banking, failed Scotland) and bail you lot out. And yes there is only a finite amount of money, so for once you can did deep, save some money and pay for something yourselves.
179

GB's Dairy,

04/01/2009 11:26:57
185 sm75
188 Nikos
194 Rufus T Firefly

Excellent posts - I can always "bank" on the gullible to keep me in No. 10.

199/201 Ricky 40 - don't ask sensible questions.
180

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 11:28:12
#182
GMCD,
04/01/2009 10:11:02

Nonsense of the week post!

"Swinney's accounting skills are as good as usual...cost a new bridge witout securing the funds first....DOOOH!"

So how do you buy your next new car?

Go to the bank and see what they will give you, say £100,000 because you have no mortgage on your £500,000 house and then you go out and buy a Merc SLK because you have access to £100,000 or

Work out what sort of car you want, what you need it for, how much it will cost to buy and run ? Then go and see what is on offer from various lenders and then match the best value for money?

DoooH
181

GB's Dairy,

04/01/2009 11:35:36
205 sm753

Brilliant post, especially the "Fat Minister and "Hapless" Swinney" bit!!!

Perhaps you could go on to explain to the uneducated why it is more essential to spend money in Iraq and Afghanistan than in Scotland?
182

GB's Dairy,

04/01/2009 11:44:26
207 sm753

WTF????
183

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 11:46:21

205. Sm80085

"....because councils have independent external revenue which they have some control over (council tax) and the Scottish Executive does not....."

Let's get this right, if the Scottish Government of any hue ever wanted to build a large piece of transport infrastructure, they would either have to.

a. Cut Spending Elsewhere
b. Use PP and cut spending elsewhere to repay the debts


I think Labour and the 'union' are ona highing to nothing on this one Sm.

£12Billion binge on a party frock VAT Cut but refusal to allow the Scottish Government to reshape it's funding profile to pay for a once in a lifetime infrastructure opportunity.

That's not 'borrowing', or 'credit' as the Treasury cutely puts it, that's simply getting SCOTTISH money in advance and taking less in future years.

It really stinks of grumpy Gordon throwing the toys out of the pram. because he didn't think of it first.

Labour are heading for a slaughtering at the general election.

Withholding £2BILLION for a new Bridge
Withholding £1BILLION in various barnet consequentials.
Cutting Scottish Budget by £1BILLIOn over 2 years


An funnily enough it's those in Glenrothes that will suffer most.

Privatised Post Office and the New Forth Road Bridge put at risk.
HBOS Merged and pensions slashed due to interest rate cuts


It was the best of times and the worst of times


184

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 11:46:47
Excellent posts webwise #1,2 and5
This Labour Government's efforts to make the SNP look bad are becoming more transparent with each passing month.

If they think for a second that the Scots won't see this blatant piece of political chicanery for what it is they are very much mistaken.

There will be many neutrals and 'soft' Labour supporters in Scotland who will find these tactics disgusting. They will merely serve to accelerate the steady drift of support from this once great and proud party.

Oh, and we have also noticed the sudden rush of programmes and events about Britishness on TV. We're particularly worried about the Eurovision Song Contest headed up by 'Irishman' Graham Norton, he really resonates with the majority of Scots, as does Lord Andrew of course.

This will surely bring about the death knell of Scottish and Welsh Independence plans.
185

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 11:49:56

207 It's called redistribution of wealth SM, you wouldn't understand it's a socialist principal thing.....

FREE Education
FREE Meals for Youngsters
FREE Prescriptions
FREE Hospital Parking
Local Taxation based on the Ability to Pay



Labour have forgotten who they are I'm afraid.

Current PFI repayment is £900Million ANNUALLY in Scotland

That's for the next 30 years, what a bargain eh?

I'd be surprised if ANY of those schools last that long.


186

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 11:54:50
147-Traquir , Alba- “Yep that's right give a budget get it rubber stamped by the England dominated treasury then grossly
overrun that budget”

That’s the joke isn’t it, considering salmond aimed to sponge precisely because financing the bridge grossly overrun the budget.
187

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 11:56:32

Scotland must be the only nation on earth that can't borrow money.

It absolutely illustrates the problems with the Scotland Act when you have one party holding the purse strings and acting unreasonably whilst another is working to alleviate ills and make Scotland a better place to live and work.

Brown has just scored a cracking own goal.

Anyone that has seen Evette Cooper in action will be very aware she has the same air of arrogance that Maggie had, a condescending stubbornness and apologist attitude that is hypocritical and irritating to Joe Bloggs on the street.

Newsnight Scotland should get her up to Scotland as much as possible.


188

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 11:58:59

212 Warden Hodges

Are any of the unionists advocating PPP?

Despite the Banks not lending?

If not PPP, then you must be advocating capital expenditure cuts or tax rises?

Which is it

189

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 11:59:22
207 SM753

Excellent post.

Make the sick and poor pay for everything and let the financiers fill their boots.

It is very selfish to expect hospital patients and visitors to have free car parking, cheaper prescriptions et al.

Comrade Broon's will soon be selling off the NHS (well the bits that make money!)

You should really think before opening that stupid mouth of yours.
190

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:03:46


So if the UK Government can't bring forward spending, why hasn't Scotland received it's share of the £1.2BILLION announced for additional new jails in England?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3007131.ece

If the Barnett Formula is applied, as it should be, to the following funds then Scotland should have already received the following:

Carter Review of Prisons Spending in England (£1.2bn) - Scotland £120m.

London Olympics Regeneration Fund - Scotland £33m per year until 2013.

Police and Firefighter Commutation Costs - Scotland £40M between 2008-11

A relaxation of Treasury restrictions that are currently preventing the release of more than £120m from the Fossil Fuel Levy surplus.

Scottish Government's £42m underspend, is currently held at Westminster until 2011.

A further £476m, which Scotland lost out on as a result of the suspension of the Council Tax Benefit mechanism, ought to be made available. The mechanism was introduced at the outset of devolution so that the Treasury could claw back money from the devolved administrations, which were expected to charge a higher council tax than England. In reality, Scottish council tax rates and rents increased at a lower rate than south of the border, resulting in money being paid out to Holyrood.

The arrangement was ceased in 2005 in exchange for a one-off £57m payment, the resulting loss has been running at £100m per year.





brown is actively screwing Scotland for evey penny out of fear that he'll be attacked in England for spending to much in Scotland...... the man is a complete disgrace.

Let's hope those gullible enough to support this in Glenrothes now see what they have brought on themselves and their children.

191

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 12:05:02
Much as it pains me to say so, Independence will not be won on the comments' sections of Unionist media propoganda sheets.

The election will be won in local communities by hardworking footsoldiers.

We have, probably, 4/5 months till the election. It is essential that the misinformation, dissembling and medacityof Brown and his likes are exposed. For best results, this can only be done on the ground.

FOR A FAIRER AND MORE PROSPEROUS SCOTLAND: VOTE SNP.
192

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 12:09:27
Say a person went to their bank for a loan for a business they wanted to start up, the bank would ask for a business plan. In the case of holyrood the treasury has asked for something similar, a budget plan.
Does the nastyonallist administration now believe themselves to be above the rules the rest of us live by?
193

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:11:03

218 Hanoi Jane

Nye Bevin founded the NHS on the basis of free at the point of use, no charges for ANYONE...... that's SOCIALISM not means testing and fiddling with forms as Flash has introduced.

Labour introduced a graduate endowment fee of £2000 per student which has been abolished under the SNP..... so not Education wasn't free under Labour.

LIT, I'm afraid you parents will pay far more for their second home dear, councils will be given free reign to charge rates on second homes, the times recently reported that fee's would likely double on second homes, double the equivalent council tax rate that is!........

Can you explain to be the socialist principal behind giving second home owners an 10% discount?


194

Alan Reid,

London 04/01/2009 12:12:03
Brown the Knife sticks it to Scotland again.
167 Tweedmouth,"the vast majority of which subsidy comes from the British taxpayer"
For you're information, it is Scotland that subsidies England.
Of course you're English so if paying for Scotland sticks in your gut, why don't you grow a spine and vote to free your country from this junkie nation. But you know which side of the bread is buttered, so shut it!
195

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 12:12:25
#218

Just look at Norway for a country to model Scotland on.

There are no Norwegian pensioners frightened to turn on their heating, like there is here.

But then being wealthy you won't understand that.
196

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 12:14:15
In what way are the plans in "disarray" Eddie.
197

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:14:24
219 Warden Hodges

"...Treasury could not provide credit to any Government department when its budget plans for the coming years have not even been set....."

I think your getting mixed up dear

They won't lend in principal because the UK's budget hasn't been set.

That would seem to suggets that they plan to reduce Scottish spending even further to appease middle England.

So many union dividends, so little time til 2011



198

ochone,

Sauchie, clacks 04/01/2009 12:16:15
Remember how just a few weeks ago unionists went on and on about how those Scotttish banks weren't Scottish but now it seems they were.

This story is yet another example of how Labour/Westminster is quite to prepaired to harm the prospects of Scotland as a whole to get at the SNP government.
199

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:16:48


The pressure will be now be on Calman to come forward with fiscal autonomy, both from the Tories and the Liberals as they see the furore that Brown's tantrums create in Scotland.......



200

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 12:16:52
#219 Warden

"Say a person went to their bank for a loan for a business they wanted to start up, the bank would ask for a business plan. In the case of holyrood the treasury has asked for something similar, a budget plan."

Agreed. And your point is?
201

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 12:18:58
214-Wardog™-PPP has got itself a bad name for not being used sparingly, and I’m guessing not many wish to be associated with past usage. Unfortunately with the bridge at this time, this is one project given the present economic conditions, which really needs PPP.
202

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:19:56
225. Ochone

Your abosultely right ochone.

It's like everything else, they are Scottish when they fail and British when they succesed, brown and the other apologists can't hide th fact hwoever that it was UK banks that really floundered, Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley.

They seemed to be able to change the rules when it suits them regarding the competition rules but appear unpreppared to do the same for a major piece of infracsctructure for Scotland.

And oh yes, remember that £400M buyoff of the ulster unionists by Brown. over 42 days.....

Followed by the wasted £12BILLIOn on VAT binge widely agreed to have completely failed.

Labour are truely a despicable bunch, sleazy cretins.

Boot them out.
203

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:20:45
228. Warden

The banks won't lend for PPP, certainly not £2Billion.

Try again


204

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 12:22:48
230 Wardog

It's clear that Warden does not understand that PPP requires external funding.
205

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:23:30
228. Warden

Here's one for you Warden, now that we are all shareholder sin the banks, do you think the Government should use this leverage to reduce our PFI debt?

Cutting Scotland's PFI debt by 50% would raise enough money for the Bridge in about four years time...... that would mean that we'd need some upfront funding from the Block Grant but we'd be talking about £400-500million.


206

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 12:26:05
I noticed Comrade Broon failed to mention "Britishness Day" on the tele today.

Was this an oversight??

Has this ludicrous idea been binned??

What about the master plan to get school kids swearing allegiance to the Butchers Apron and learning about important historical events like the Wars of the Roses, 1066 and all that p!sh, winning the World Cup in 1966 and how England had a great empire?

Comrade Broon is full of grand ideas until you look at the detail and realise that they're as empty as his heed and the countries coffers.


Vote SNP for a fairer Scotland
207

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:26:20
231 connaughtboy

Aye, Ian Gray is now in a right fix over this, HM Treasury has left him with some very droll lines of attack.

Use PPP or else slash spending.

Gray will be forced to admit that PPP isn't suitable for this project and if we use it then the price will increase dramatically., which in the end will mean further cuts in any event.




208

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 12:33:09
I see from the Times that donated organs have been sold to foreign patients for operation done in NHS hospitals.

Was this why Comrade Broon wanted an opt out system for organ donation??

Could be a nice earner for our beleaguered economy???

Trust Comrade Broon to come up with the goods (and the livers!) when the chips are down!!!

http://tinyurl.com/9a5kkg
209

Jimbo2,

04/01/2009 12:33:46
Whilst it seems the SNP gauge success on how much they can achieve for the betterment of Scotland and it's people, it would appear that the Labour Party gauge success on how much they can achieve to the detriment of Scotland and it's people.

I'm always astounded by the number of people who, whilst purporting to be Scots, come on to these comments boards and show pleasure or gloat at any failure forced upon the Scotland and her people by the British Labour Party.

Whilst they proclaim that Scotland is better off staying within the Union, they show a discernible glee when Scotland, a member state of their beloved Union, is disadvantaged.

Is it the case that it is a prerequisite of being a unionist that you have to be a Scotland hater?
210

Rob,

04/01/2009 12:33:49
Some real ignorance on display on this one. You can't get money from any corporation until you've set a budget - mercifully, that also applies to UK plc.

I for one am sick to death of Swinney who has become the nation's principal beggar. It's a special case of course, it always is - only fair for Scotland etc etc etc. Any chance to grab a few bob for nothing is always gleefully progressed by this bankrupt SNP rabble.

The UK will hold the line on this and quite correctly. Scotland's already had its fair share of bail outs and will do relatively well out of the re-constituted banks. The whole SNP concept of "Arc of Prosperity" is now seen and proven to be a total shambles - the only way Scotland will get through this credit squeezed recession is by tapping the UK and standing in line like the other regions of this nation. And don't be fooled - no-one else is going to give a monkeys for Scotland. We are not special. Believe you are special and you become Iceland II, quickly at that.
211

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:34:56

236. Red Jane

"...90% council tax on second homes seems fair...."

I thought Tax was meant to be on based wealth?

Owning a second home would appear to me to mean that your pretty wealthy.

Do your parents earn money from letting it, that will be taxable under LIT.

LIT is based on your ability to pay a %rate of earnings, essentially a form of income taxation....... Council tax is based upon the property in which you live.

800,000 people rent their homes in Scotland, it is absolutely no indication of their wealth what so ever yet they pay based on that.

The VERY wealthy pay a few hundred more than middle income earners.

If you think that's fair you've obviously been to Magies New Labour School of Faux Socialists
212

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 12:36:38
239 Rob

Get off your knees man. You are an embarrassment to all Scots.
213

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 12:38:16
#236 Hanoi Jane

Yes Norwegian pensioners can afford a dram. Probably a lot more than any Scots pensioner and they won't die due to hypothermia like they do here!!

Do you think that Norway's wealth is built on whaling and mink farming??
A state owned oil industry might have something to do with it??

You really do need help!


214

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:40:13
239. Rob'n the Poor

Has the Uk set it's Budget for 2012?
215

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 12:41:02
#239 Rob

Have you no dignity left???

You are a disgrace!
216

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:41:11
239. Rob'n Hood

"...Scotland's already had its fair share of bail outs and will do relatively well out of the re-constituted banks...."

"...Some real ignorance on display on this one...."


Breathtaking

217

Rob,

04/01/2009 12:48:38
#236 Janeshore.

Wholly agree. But the majority of these posters here is to grab anything you can - the "rich" will pay - for free. Free lunch, dinner, breakfast, afternoon tea - the whole lot. 90% tax is not that fair to non-residents (it used to be 50%) who don't use public services at all but do employ a quite large number of people. It is a proposal that will guarantee the total tax takes reduces.

218

Nikostratos,,

04/01/2009 12:50:02
#199 ricky40

Scottish Unionist is like a number of the snp posters on this site more on the extreme side of the political spectrum. And he does share another Character flaw with them he lacks any sense of humour.
219

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:52:40
239. Rob'n Red Breasts

There are so many false ideas in your comment I had to take a minute to stop laughing.

But let's start by deconstructing some of you myths.

Bank Recaptialisation/Nationalisation
Northern Rock - Nationalised
Bradford & Bingley - Nationalised
Llyods TSB - Part Nationalised
HBOS - Part Nationalised and Merged
RBS - Part Nationalised.

The vast majority of the money has went into English based corporations. - FACT


The "Arc of Prosperity" or "Arc of Independence"?

Iceland still owns huge tracts of UK Assets, ranging from PFI debt through to multinational corporations that are prominent in the UK, all froma coutnry with a popualtion 1/4 the size of Glasgow. They have been assisted by the scandnavian countires and now on the road to recovery.

Norway, Swede, Denmark & Finland were the models for Brown's 'fiscal stimulus' and are not yet in recession, although this is expected to change next year, their recession is likely to be relatively minor when compared to the UK.

The Germans openly challenged brown before any of this started about his fiscal irresponsibility and deregulation, the went on to criticise his VAT cut an recaptialisation programme which have now been proven right.

brown is in the last chance saloon, as is the UK, with Darling looking at a further package of measures now that will involve ten's of billions again.

The UK is in more debt that it was 1945.


"scotland tapping the UK"

A great definition of the Scotland Act, expect for one thin, Scotland is a net contributor yet the block grant is being slashed by £1bIllion over the next two years, s, £1Billion is being withheld from legitimate barnet consequential and now we're told that we can't even reshape our OWN funding profile to build important infrastructure projects.

Yoru BEGGER analogy is absolutely correct, I suggest whichever party you follow, you send that idea ti them for the next election....

. Scot's will love to hear h
220

Rob,

04/01/2009 12:55:08
Wardog. Gosh. You really do live in fantasyland. You poor chap.
221

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

04/01/2009 12:56:30
The more anti-Scottish the Brown government becomes, the more virulent and full of bile their defenders become. It is obvious to the most impartial observer that the SNP government are governing within restricted conditions and doing it well, deliberately. At the near half way stage of this current government, the gap in popularity between the SNP and Labour is still growing.

A referendum may or not happen in 2010, but what is totally obvious that an independent Scotland is inevitable. Remember we only have to win the argument once, the unionist dependence junkies have to win every time.

If you haven't joined the SNP yet, do it now, it's only £1.00 per month and gives you the pleasure of knowing you're doing the right thing in supporting the party that puts your country first.

www.snp.org
222

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:57:01

247. Red Jane

Well well jane, now you have a raving Tory agreeing with you...... if that isn't vindication that your ideas aren't very socialist I don't know what is.....

As for your parents, why do they need two houses when there is a shortage of houses for young families throughout Scotland.

Freeing up holiday homes is one of the key drivers behind LIT Second Home Rates.

For too long, villages in Scotland have become holiday dead zones during the winter months, making it difficult for youngsters to stay and businesses to prevail.

So I'm afraid I have ZERO sympathy for your well off parents.

If they can pay, they should.

Labour's days of tax breaks for the rich are over in Scotland.
223

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 12:59:32
251 Rob

"gosh' ' POOR Chap' ????

I live in fantasyland?

Should I curtsey or bow when I meet you


224

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:01:14
"MURDER rates in Dublin are now the sixth highest in Europe.

Only five other European capitals have higher homicide levels in the latest United Nations league table.

Dublin comes four places ahead of London , which ranks 10th in the list.

And according to the figures, Ireland as a whole is 10th in Europe, with a worse record for violent deaths than England and Wales.

In Ireland and Britain, only Glasgow, Glasgow Scotland, remit of the scotch governemt, comes ahead of Dublin -- in fifth place. Latvian capital Riga was number one on the list."

Something for the scotch to gloat about, being ahead of London!

Don't forget that most murders in London are black on black, yet most murders in scotland are scotch on scotch, keep up the good work..

tinyurl.com/8hebux


225

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:02:12
255. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


You sir are a buffoon
226

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 04/01/2009 13:03:58
"....the Treasury could not provide credit to any Government department...."

So just to absolutely sure you all r3ealise this, the Scottish Government is just a department of the English Westminster government.
227

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:05:35
" 256 Wardog™,04/01/2009 13:02:12
255. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha"


Glad that disgusting fact's make you laugh.
228

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:06:55
''Rob'' must be on the wind up, no one could be as cringingly servile as that.
229

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

04/01/2009 13:09:13
#255 Would it be cruel to suggest that the Answer has a greater chance of suffering 'Scotch on Scotch' violence given his place of residence?
230

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:12:51
260. Gussie

He sounds a bit like a batman villain 'The Answer' or better know as 'The Riddler'

Always here to belittle Scotland, his politics are all mixed up, he advocates reduced funding to Scotland but want's to retain the UK..... with Scotland in it.

A 'Pure Daftie' as they say in his neck of the woods.

He's a BNP troll


231

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 13:13:30
# Rob (may posts).

You give the impression of knowing something of economics.

Could you enlighten me, please, as to the £37bn. banks' stimulus package?

Was this not meant to encourage banks to start lending again?
OR, was it meant to be used by banks to prop up their patent failure?

Why is it being considered that there should be further support for these financial establishments when they are refusing to support their current customers despite being given £bns of taxpayers' money for this very purpose?

I would be very grateful for your response. I'm sure it will be enlightening.
232

Rob,

04/01/2009 13:13:52
Wardog, you are a real prize. I'm disappointed not to have earned the classification of "bufoon" which you accorded to "The Answer". I almost feel cheated.
233

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:15:20

8% is scotland's share of the UK population

yet scotland manages to produce less than

7% of fulltime new undergraduates to university 2008

furthermore

7% of scotland domiciled new fulltime undergraduates elected to be educated in England

but only

1% of England domiciled new fulltime undergraduates elected to be educated in scotland.

source UCAS.

tinyurl.com/6kmkyz
234

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:15:39

259. Observer

I suspect his master AM2 is the most servile creature we've ever encountered.

A gollam type beas, obssessed with his 'precious' union.

Willing to belittle, obfuscate and demean ordinary Scots in his plight for some as yet unknown 'british' identity.

Once upon time, we were told to cling to Britania's skirts because the good ship UKplc would see us through the bad times.

Well here they are.

6000 Scots being made bankrupt each month

1 in 10 Scots likely to be unemployed by the end of this year.

235

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

04/01/2009 13:16:27
#261 Question you have to ask is, if he's 'The Answer', what the ffuq was the question?
236

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:17:37
263 Rob'n Cheated

You sir are a crawling slithering belly to the ground type of charater.....

Happy?

;-)
237

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:18:52
267 He's a troll a complete waste of time and a bore, I don't even bother reading his posts any more, I just scroll past him.
238

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:19:46

267. Gussie

Whatever we do, never engage the '8% one'

it doesn't post to debate, it's got lots of riddles about Scotland, all based on damning statitics..... it's unclear however what it (8% / The Arsewear) expects t achieve posting such drivel on a Scottish Paper Comments page.....

Maybe it doesn'ts have 'the answer'

239

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:19:55
255 answer

I agree with 256, you are an eejit.
240

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:21:16
#260 Gussie

Especially if he goes around calling people "Scotch" !
241

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:22:36
" 261 Wardog™,04/01/2009 13:12:51 "

"he advocates reduced funding to Scotland but want's to retain the UK"


Dream on, the sooner you scotch stand up on your own two feet the better!

Yorkshire and the Humber same size population as scotchland , manages to get by with £7.5 billion less public handouts than the scotch, and they have a bunch of lazy muslims to appease (forced marriages, non english speaking wifes, high dole dependency).
242

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:23:17
#261 He certainly doesn't live in Glasgow, and probably not even Scotland. What he has managed to do is to turn this thread into a BNP Hate-Fest.
243

Rob,

04/01/2009 13:23:49
#262. Frank McBride. Lusitania. I suggest you read the papers if you don't understand what's happening - after all, it's your money as much as it is anyone elses.

244

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 04/01/2009 13:24:20
The Westminster Government again treat the Scots with disdain. However more votes for the SNP as the Scottish branch of Nulabour support these anti-Scottish policies
245

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:24:23
Wardog #266 '' 1 in 10 scots likely to be unemployed by the end of this year''

So what does the Treasury do ? Prepare for a further bank bail out as the first one didn't work, give away revenue in a failed attempt to beat the recession, and refuse cash facilities for capital infrastructure works, which everyone and his dug knows you need to invest in during a crisis like this. Idiots, economic illiterates they are beyond belief.
246

Wee Dennis,

Haymarket 04/01/2009 13:24:33
If they needed cash for a new bridge, then maybe they should not have scrapped the toll charge!!!
247

,

04/01/2009 13:24:56
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248

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:25:11
264 Fair doos Jane

Fair doos Jane, but you understand the principal I'm making?

It is Tory policy to give second home owners a discount, it does nothing to encourage local communities and essentially rewards wealth with more wealth.

Much better that councils can set a rate (some will keep it low to encourage holiday homes, others will raise to discourage) and have the rest of local taxation based ona person's ability to pay thus eliminating the arbitrary link between property and wealth and ensuring that the low paid and those on fixed incomes (pensioners) pay a fair proportion of their earning son local services.

The argument that those with second homes don't use services is a false one, a fit single man/women in his/her 20's doesn't use half as many services s as a family do yet may be earning three times as much as the single mum. living in the same road.

Pay based on your earning, it's fair for income tax, it's fair for Local Tax.






249

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 13:25:43
#247 Jane

Yes I have paid for a drink in Norway.

It's very expensive - deliberately so, to cut down on anti social behaviour drunkenness, and it works.

If your measure of fair society is the price of drink, then you are a sadder individual than I first thought!!
250

Rob,

04/01/2009 13:26:30
Wardog: not really. I'm truly disappointed
251

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:26:47
273 seems to be under the influence of either drugs or alcohol. Has anyone managed to decipher the hidden meaning in the post or is there none?
252

arc of insolvency,

04/01/2009 13:28:07
Ah Observer, Wardog and connaughtboy typfify the SNP support when they can't justify their party's incompetence they call people childish names.

Why is it that SNP expects something that the rest of the UK don't get. How completely ridicoulous the SNP are and anyone apart from the some of the names I mentioned above can see right through your parties silly games. More grandstanding by Swinney and co to meet their parties own aims and not Scotland's.
253

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:28:48
284 Do you get a prize if you guess the hidden meaning in his post ?
254

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:28:55
#279 dennis

I suppose you thought the new bridge would cost nothing?!
255

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:29:44
273. SM80085

So let's get this straight

1. You believe those staying in areas requiring bridge access should pay for it ad finitum

2. Ill People should pay to park there car when they arrive for monthly chemo therapy

3. People should be means tested before receiving prescriptions

4. Young kids should not have access to Free meals, or some should and the rest should be outside at the chip van

5. Local Taxation should be based arbitarily on property and those rich enough to own a second home should get a 10% discount....



Is it any wonder the Tories don't register in Scotland anymore.

256

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:30:16
285 I haven't called anyone a childish name but you seem to have called yourself one.
257

Jimbo2,

04/01/2009 13:31:00
Why is it only the British Unionists who suffer from the 'cannae dae' cringe factor?

Why is it that the British Unionists have a compulsive need to run Scotland down whilst advocating that Scotland remain in the Union?

258

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:31:38
283 Rob'n the poor

" I truly disappointed"

In yourself?

I agree, probably bets to log off now to avoid further embarrassment and exposure of your rather dirty secret...... between me and you.... wearing your trousers like that onyl serves to show off your cringe.....

Put it away Rob, the children are pointing and laughing


259

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:31:59
285 A bit rich coming from a poster whose very username is a joint insult to at least three separate countries. Also, patently untrue.
260

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:32:35
Imagine calling yourself ''the arc of insolvency'' and then accuse others of using childish names. That's a belter.
261

Rob,

04/01/2009 13:33:06
Jimmy le Pie. Yes, all booze is expensive in Norway - that's because it is managed by a Monopoly that can charge up to 250% on the landed value of beverage alcohol. I'm sure you'sd agree that this is something we could do in Scotland - much fairer than Council Tax as the drinkers are a greater fianancial burden to the NHS than almost anything else.

Could we even agree on something?

In anticipation of a sturdy response

Yours Truly

262

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:33:50
285 Arc of Constipation.

I thought you'd be routed yesterday, I was expecting a name change at the very least 'arc'........

Can you tell us yet what makes you Proud to be Scottish?



263

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:35:10
290 Jimbo

Fear not, they are a dying breed !
264

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:35:24
293. SM80085

Which services do you think shoudl be cut first?

Maybe the Children's Hospice? or Cancer Services at Hairmyres?

Maybe we could put the dualling of the A9 on the buffers.

Which is it Sm80085?

The public demand to know.
265

morris,

edinburgh 04/01/2009 13:36:17
239

The fact is that Scotland contributes considerably more into the UK than she is given from it,and she is far from bankrupt!Even if this were true it would be Westminster's fault since they control the purse strings!
Its the UK which has borrowed excessively which places the UK in a less recoverable position than nearby Euro zone neighbours.There is a world wide problem for sure,but guess who is least equipped to deal with it despite having North Sea Oil to bail us out/squander!No prizes for working out who and why!
The Barnet formula is used to divert attention away from the comparison which should be made and that is HOW MUCH DOES SCOTLAND GIVE TO THE UK compared to HOW MUCH DO WE GET BACK!This is the figure and independent Scotland would retain after all,and comparison with England as a whole is of no relevance to the independence debate therefore, especially where a stat used is expressed per head of population and therefore ignores the fact that LONDON receives considerably more than the UK average and you still have to multiply that by she has 50% higher population than Scotland anyway.Many regions of England receive MORE than they contribute whilst some receive less. Northern Ireland and Northern England are major beneficiaries as is LONDON.
What Scotland receives from London will always be less than what she gives to London,and if you cannot understand that Scotland cannot possibly benefit from such an arrangement then there is no point in even explaining it is there?
Would you agree to give me your salary every month if I promised to hand you back at least 85% of it? If the answer is NO, why are you favouring doing it to your country?
Barnet covers some expenditure items but NOT all.A major exclusion is defence spending and there are others.
In any case the Barnett formula was a reduction in Scotland's spending the day it was introduced and has continued to reduce using per head of population to disguise this reduction.Further reduction is
266

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 13:37:01
Orc of insolvency has gone very quiet, sorry I couldn't resist it, it goes with the gollum theme.
267

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 13:37:27
#276, Rob.

As I correctly assumed, a most enlightening response.

Your rigorous critique was truly breathtaking, and will surely attract more readers to you viewpoint. Thank you for that.
268

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:37:38
295 Rob

With profit margins that high it sounds like there will be a few new entrants to the Norwegian alcohol industry.
269

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:39:36

299. Morris

It's the weird thing, why would a state wish to keep hold of a part that is clambering for autonomy if it was a drain on national resources?

Why do the unionists never advertise to the Scottish Public that they believe Scotland is a basket case, begging bowl nation?

SCOTLAND: THE BEST WEE BASKETCASE IN THE WORLD

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sIOBG1AVUd8
270

morris,

edinburgh 04/01/2009 13:39:46
299 cont .
Further reduction is already in the pipeline based upon need as defined by Westminster. If London can receive more than she contributes every year without exception then Scotland can be given back a share of money she pays,and in any case Holyrood requested an advance so we can spend the money now,when its needed. We are not requesting extra funding as I understand it,although we should be,and when we cannot even get what we are entitled to its hardly surprising.
This government has betrayed SCOTLAND and anyone who supports it is also guilty.
Andy Kerr wants a guarantee form the SNP it will go ahead? He will then accuse the SNP of broken promises as regards those items which MUST BE REMOVED/DELAYED because of his LABOUR colleagues at Westminster.
How about a guarantee the money will be available Andy Kerr? What a clown !

Any one who accepts payment of salary for lying to his constituents deserves to be booted asap.
271

Buspass,

Edinburgh 04/01/2009 13:41:35
Wonder how the labour voters in Glenrothes on the North end of the bridge feel now?
272

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 13:44:20
#295

Personally I think high taxes on alcohol are a good thing.
When you look round the streets of Scotland (and England) you can see the results of cheap drink.
It's not pretty.
273

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 13:44:30
Anyway, this thread has gone off at a tangent. Will try another one.
274

Tris,

04/01/2009 13:45:10

I said it when the SNP came to power, and I think I was right.

Mr Brown will do ANYTHING in his power to make the SNP look bad. He won't care who he hurts along the way. Old people, poor people, sick people, industrialists, rich people.... whoever, as long as he can discredit nationalism in Scotland.

Despite announcing VAST public spending for England and Wales, based on bringing forward plans (as outlined in his article for the Observer today) it seems that he will not allow any money for a needed replacement bridge in Scotland.

Unemployment, or a bridge disaster in Scotland seems an acceptable price to pay so that Mr Brown can discredit the Scottish government.

I'm ashamed that we have such a petty stupid childish government that is happy to risk my country's prosperity in so many ways. If he was a young teenager, it would be expected behaviour, dealt with by grounding him and stopping his pocket money for a month.

I've never really hated a person before, but Brown has got it. And Yvette Cooper.....? Nah, they wouldn't print what I think of her.
275

,

04/01/2009 13:48:35
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276

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:49:41
306 SM8%

A structural deficit for a nation that can't borrow...... that's brilliant SM8%...

Do you have to try to be so stupid.

In 2006-07, Scotland without oil would have had a current budget deficit of £6.7 billion. North Sea oil revenues added £9.075 billion to UK government revenues: allocating Scotland a geographical share of North Sea oil revenues, (which we note would be the normal approach under the Geneva Convention), Gers shows Scotland in 2006-07 with a current budget surplus of £0.8 billion. In comparison, the UK had a current budget deficit of some £4.3 bn, (including receipt of 100% of all North Sea revenues).

It is important not to misinterpret the Gers figures. In particular, they do not tell us what the finances of an independent Scotland would look like - even though some parties to the annual Gers debate treat them in this way.

A great deal: affecting quality, presentation and content. For example, HM Treasury data, which is the basic source for the expenditure figures in Gers, and which until recently was a black box to all outside the Treasury, has been vetted thoroughly by statisticians in Scotland, and they have shown themselves willing to override the Treasury's figures where these are clearly wrong.

Specific mistakes have been corrected, including the treatment of Scottish Water, nuclear decommissioning and the depreciation of public assets, such as roads. Scotland's important oil sector is now treated in a way which reflects much better its importance to Scotland: in the past in Gers, oil was treated as an add-on to the accounts, and this was justified by a spurious appeal to the accounting standards set by Europe.

In the past, all attention was focused on one figure, referred to as Scotland's borrowing requirement. This was the difference between total government expenditure and total government revenues. In fact, the UK used a different indicator, known as the current deficit.

The new Gers follows the UK practic
277

Rob,

04/01/2009 13:50:07
303; Correct. it's very difficult particularly since they produce stuff themselves. Vinonopolet is the Governtment monopoly company. By the way, Iceland also runs a booze monopoly - all part of the Arc of Prosperity.

PS Thank you Jimmy - I'll take that as a yes.
278

,

04/01/2009 13:50:46
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279

TWC,

04/01/2009 13:52:34
This is just another example of New Labour's anti Scottish drive.
With Fiscal Autonomy we would be capable of borrowing and funding our own capital spend.
Darling /Brown want fiscal stimulus surely they should support this spending ahead since they agree both Stimulus & the need for a bridge.

The suggestion that Scotland use PFI/PPP is crazy, when the current PPP/PFI is addded to the Balance sheet there will be another dive in the Pound.

We need a General Election so these Ne Labour trolls can see how many old Labour no longer support them.
280

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:52:46
311.

PS - This is all without adding brown's current binges and PFI Debt......

The future isn't looking very bright for the union.

281

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 13:53:50


It's the Oil stupid
282

Jimbo2,

04/01/2009 13:56:58
Scotland paid £49 billion in taxation to the London Treasury and was given back £30 billion pocket money to run the country. The London Treasury retained just under 40% of Scotland's income.

The British Unionists, although accusing Scotland of living off English subsidies, find this an acceptable arrangement.
283

morris,

edinburgh 04/01/2009 14:00:38
306

Westminster had to commission Gavin McCrone to report on the true state of Scotland's internal economy approx 40 years ago (following the discovery of oil).
They should have already known the answer to this, and it should have agreed with the figures they were publishing for Scotland.IT DID THE VERY OPPOSITE!
Westminster stats can say anything you like and even a primary school child should know that!
They were telling Scotland she could not survive on her own,when the commissioning of this report confirms that the figures being handed out were rubbish, and the conclusion was the very opposite!

Why would we believe such "facts" against the findings of Prof McCrone , when Fraser of Allander issued countless economic models which declared these figures claptrap,and Wendy's own husband who lectured at FoA Inst declared his recognition of the strength of independence economically in a guest lecture in Edinburgh !

Government statistics are what government wants them to be. ie Not information but Propaganda.

Independent bodies like Fraser of Allander are a much more reliable source,and when a former Labour Leaders husband recognises independence publicly (the video was on You tube for all to witness)and he is a lecturer in this discipline,then your stats are not worth a hoot !Labour could produce a set of stats which confirm that Jackie Baillie is slimmer of the year if they really wanted to!
284

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 14:02:48
#306, sm753.

Still on the rampage, I see.

BUT, still being AM2ish; selective with "facts".

The only claim concerning GERS is that it is "more" accurate.
The Scottish deficit was £2bn: the UK's was £43bn - 21 times more.
GERS does not give a complete picture of income/expenditure in the present circumstances. This is a fact acknowledge by all respected commentators.

But like your fellow traveller AM2 dissembling is not alien to you.
285

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 14:03:55

313. Jimbo

It's the biggest enigma.

Scottish Unionists seem to think Scotland alone in the world is incapable of running itself successfully. it just simply doesn't deserve any credence.

The economic argument is well and truly won by independence and fiscal autonomy advocates alike.....

The issue is whether Scots want to have the other powers associated with independence, namely, international responsibilities, expression and European membership.

286

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 14:14:23
128# Your wee pal Salmond took £500,000 for his campaign from one of recipients of Thatcher policy. So who are the hypocrites. So called false principals oot the windae when it comes tae money. When Maggie snuffs it wee Alec will be at the funeral saying how wonderful she was! Any Bet!
287

Ewan M,

04/01/2009 14:16:14
I see the entrenched bitterness, extremely paranoid narrow minded we are down trodding SNP supporting sentiment remains strong. What a piece of work some of you are. Sad really..... and all they do is embaress the country they proclaim to love so much with some of their comments.
288

,

04/01/2009 14:20:53
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289

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 14:23:29
#318, Ewan M.

It would appear that your "entrenched bitterness" is no less.
290

,

04/01/2009 14:24:01
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,

04/01/2009 14:24:36
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 14:26:01
#319, UiB.

How unkind of you to berate the intellectually limited.
293

,

04/01/2009 14:27:18
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294

subrosa,

04/01/2009 14:29:10
# 163

Why bring up the subject of the border rail link? It's a non starter and everyone knows it, bar the few who would use the service.

Until it includes the largest population in the borders (ie Peebles and area) it will be a white elephant. Only then would it perhaps be worthwhile.
295

,

04/01/2009 14:31:47
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296

Edward,

04/01/2009 14:32:13
So Brown lapdog Yvette Cooper aka Mrs Ed Balls refuses to provide money for capital projects in Scotland BUT her master Gordon (he is a moron) Brown is planning to pump money into capital projects in England. I would like some unionist to explain that one.
Also see in the papers Brown is having a portrait of Thatcher painted (funded by an unknown) to hang in the Thatcher room inside Number 10 Downing Street - Honestly you just could not make this stuff up! Hope the former miners in Fife are chuffed
297

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 14:35:56
#305
Tris,
04/01/2009 13:45:10

"Mr Brown will do ANYTHING in his power to make the SNP look bad. He won't care who he hurts along the way. Old people, poor people, sick people, industrialists, rich people.... whoever, as long as he can discredit nationalism in Scotland."

The Palastine Gambit?

Lock them up, metaphorically speaking, treat them like children, starve them of the right and chance to cointrol their own future, punish them when they get uppity and then offer them a peace on the jailer's terms, if they behave themselves.



Sorry Obs, I know that the comparison is a bit disembalanced wrt the reality in Gaza but, the strategy and tactics are out of the same imperialist colonialist manual.
298

,

04/01/2009 14:37:42
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299

TWC,

04/01/2009 14:43:42
327 Edward
I think Brown has lost it altogether, he claims he wants a Fiscal Stimulus but turns down the best example in the UK.
The union is not the reason for the Scottish Government being unable to manage it is the lack Financial Autonomy, but I fear the only way we will get that control will be to get Independence.
It is apparent on these posts that the New Labour supporters have no answers, all they do is slag SNP and the Nats but like their party they do not have any ideas for Scotland. That is why so many of us are drifting away from them.
300

Edward,

04/01/2009 14:43:59
#329 Union is Best
Sorry for not knowing my place!
Was going to also mention the fact that the pound is worth a lot less, than all global currencies, including the Thai Baht and Egyptian pound (pound fell by about 26 to 27% agains these currencies in thelast 6 months). But see know that this must be a clever ploy by Brown to ensure no one goes abroad to see what its really like outside the UK
301

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 14:44:14
#317 Shamen

Alex won't get near Maggie's grave for all the New Labour Sleaze worthies hanging over it howling their eyes out!

#318 Ewan M
What a superb posting. Your use of the English language is a lesson to us all!
302

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 14:44:25
Brown is mad and needs to be sectioned.
303

,

04/01/2009 14:46:48
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,

04/01/2009 14:47:40
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Edward,

04/01/2009 14:48:41
#330
Agree, that a Scotland independent would be the only answer to be able to arrange its own finances instead of having to go cap in hand to London.
I also notice that New Labour supporters fil to grasp the reality of whats happening and continue to attack the SNP and the Scottish Government, instead of looking at what Brown is or rather is not doing . It is alos noted at the increased amount of unionist press stories coming thick and fast through the usual suspects, being fed from Labour in attacking the SNP and the Scottish Government in order to detract people from what Labour is doing
306

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 14:50:08
"Dunkirk spirit", "Blitz" etc

Does that mean we can put the Traitor Brown against the wall in Edinburgh Castle and shoot the bwastard?
307

,

04/01/2009 14:51:05
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308

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 14:51:33
Edward # 336
I also notice that New Labour supporters fil to grasp the reality of whats happening and continue to attack the SNP and the Scottish Government, instead of looking at what Brown is or rather is not doing.


Turkeys and Xmas?
309

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 14:54:40
#326, UiB.

Thanks for your insightful post.

Just so as I can get it clear in my head.

Just as in Iraq, we destroy the infrastructure, then spend some years making it worse while blaming this on the local population. After that, we replace some of this infrastructure on the basis of promoting a stronger democracy, and finally achieve our aim of a puppet government which will rubber stamp our every wish.

Thanks, UiB, you are truly an enlightened one.
310

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 14:54:51

Edward # 336



Denial?
311

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 14:55:07
336# Aye ye cannae beat the good old conspiracy theory. Usual rubbish from the idiot braindead left. Go and join yer pal in Big Brother.
312

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 14:58:47
I do feel sorry for the traditional Labour voter in England.

Betrayed by New Labour Sleaze and Corruption, they will never vote for the Tories and are only left with the Lib-Dums come next election. What a choice!!!

Thank God for the SNP
313

,

04/01/2009 14:59:35
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314

The Busman,

The USSR (United Scottish Socialist Republic) 04/01/2009 15:00:41
Would a tory government be any different? Probably not.

I also think that even if there were a Labour Government in Scotland over the time period of the bridge's building, I don't think that a Westminster Government, of any colouration, would give them the money along those lines.

It might also come back to re-instating tolling: if the Fifers want the bridge, what part of the cost are they prepared to pay? Simple as that.
315

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 15:03:40


BBC: Forth bridge payment plan blocked

"... I am sorry that for ideological reasons they have ruled out using public private partnerships...."

Alastair Darling


It's official, New Labour are the Tories.


316

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04/01/2009 15:04:09
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brownlie,

04/01/2009 15:06:14
329 Union is Best

I like the idea of crossing the Forth under an SNP executive but would it be cost-effective and did you have a particular executive in mind?
318

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 15:07:29
Let's be entirely clear about this.

The SNP are are asking for the Scottish Block Grant to be reduced for the next 20 years by about 3100 Million to pay for this bridge.

Labour are saying No to that and insisting that PPP is used, which w illi nvolve paying out profit to private companies which will cost a few hundred Million every year for 30 Years, making the whole thing more expensive and meaning that the tax payer is again paying out to private companies as part of the PFi debt.

Brilliant.

Can anyone trust the treasury anymore over their handling of the downturn.

£12 BILLION down the drain, no discernible benefit, gone, nadda, nowt

Labour are in Crisis


319

,

04/01/2009 15:08:19
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Wardog™,

04/01/2009 15:08:45
351 £100 Million a year (correction)

Shift misfired........
321

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 15:11:32

There is a very simple test here.

How much will the bridge cost Scots under each method?

PPP v Publicly Funded.



322

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04/01/2009 15:12:26
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Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 15:19:37
#356 UIB

As a Nat I would beg you to go easy on Shamen.
He thinks he's a Unionist but if truth be told he doesn't know.
It's obvious he's no fairly right in the heed and needs special care and medicine (soon to be free in Scotland)

Please have pity.
324

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04/01/2009 15:21:38
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325

brownlie,

04/01/2009 15:21:40
352 UiB

I believe the military can put up a "Bailey Bridge" in a day but the lunch expenses are considered to be too horrendous.

356 I understand that the World Trade Centre attack was carried out by Saudi Arabians so attacking Iraq in return would be something like attacking Wales for an IRA Bombing atrocity - but we got away with it!
326

Macbeth 1616,

Fife 04/01/2009 15:24:04
When Scotland becomes independent will there also be an separate independence for the Highlands and Island, if they so wish?

The Central Belt is such a different area to that outside of it. Large population conurbations, big needs versus farming/low population areas. So lets split Scotland into "Scotland" south of a line and everything north of the line, as "Caledonia", the line being say the A85/A82 roads (Perth-Helensburgh) .

The infrastructure needs of the majority of the population in the "Scottish" Central Belt can be supported by the "vast" population there. If they can't support the infrastructure costs then it is too big a project and can't really be justified. It is just an over-ambitious idea from people thinking they are mroe important than they really are.

Those in Caledonia will similarly have to look after themselves, but with mush smaller needs. They will of course have the benefit of any income that comes from Aberdeen/Shetland oil refineries.

Sounds fair to me.

327

The Busman,

04/01/2009 15:27:58
#361

I have a better idea. Why not, when Scotland becomes independent, *exclude* Edinburgh, and let everything behind/within the A720 become an enclave of England, its flag being a blue saltire on a white background?

Because that's where Edinburgh's heart is! LOL
328

Natasha Robertson,

Oban 04/01/2009 15:28:20
I think the time has come to move on to the next stage. We have been Governing well by decree for the last year and it is obvious Unionists have no longer any part to play in our Government. So why continue with what has just become a talking shop for Unionists to parade their tired old spiel? We can still call parliament when we might need it but other than that let's put the sad thing out of its misery and call an extended holiday for it.

Without that distraction we can concentrate on our fight with Westminster. And rid ourselves of the 5th columnist unionists in our midst (starting with the Scotsman and Herald newspapers of course). These must be brought under Government control in 2009.

2009 could be a great year if we only have the conviction to stand behind the party and our leader. You are either for Scotland or against.
329

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 15:29:40
#360, Brownlie.

Don't tell me that you were taken in by the conspiacy theory, too.

The fact that 15 of the 16 perps were proven to be Saudi nationals proves conclusively that they were indeed Iraqis.
330

Mr T hornhill,

04/01/2009 15:29:43
Another fine example of good financial planning from the folk running this country.
According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7235410.stm
the forth road tolls used to bring in £225m per annum. Over the next 8 years that would get very close to the £2.3bn that is required. Good old Alex Salmond!! Bring back the tolls to fund the new bridge.

NB I'm no bridge engineer but does it really cost that much to build a bridge!!!)
331

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 15:33:02
366 So you are suggestinng the Scottish government re-introduce tolls and then save up the income in a piggy bank until it reaches £ 2 billion. I don't think you quite get this do you. That's not how you fund capital spending silly boy.
332

,

04/01/2009 15:35:03
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333

brownlie,

04/01/2009 15:37:12
365 frank mcbride

What conspiracy theory, Frank, it was the logical thing to do. It was at least as logical as our well-spun theory of Gordon saving the world.
334

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 04/01/2009 15:37:53
Come on. If If Westminster gave Scotland this cash, two questions would have to be addressed.
1 How would the English M.Ps fund their second homes, the cost of furnishing these at the most expensively priced shops in the UK?
AND,
2 How would they manage to fund the most obscene salery rises in the UK, which they always manage? While telling us,( the bottom of the pile) to tighten our belts, & it is our fault that the country is in this mess
WILL, or CAN our two faced, pinching, lying toad of a Primed Misery, have the GUTS to answer these questions HONESTLY? (sorry I forgot, I was speaking about polititians HONESTY IS NEVER IN THEIR DiCTIONARY)
So no chance of an answer, is there?
335

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 15:38:56
368 tut tut Union is best you know there was no Al Quida presence in Iraq prior to the invasion because Saddam Hussein hated them, and they hated him.
336

,

04/01/2009 15:38:59
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337

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 15:39:12
224-Wardog- “They won’t lend in principle because the UK’s budget hasn’t been set”

That this is the case I apologise whole heartedly.

When reading the article I considered the two scenarios, but truly believed even the nastyonallist administration couldn’t be that stupid as to kick up a fuss prior to the UK’s budget being set. So I consider the meaning to be that of holyrood’s budget.

Considering the recession I would agree scotland might receive less money, but by the process and the Barrett formula, per capita, scotland will likely receive better finding than the average English region, including middle England.

This being the case, the nastyonallist administration are probably trying to work their charms on the gullible of scotland, suggesting Westminster are short changing them. It has been many centuries since scots believed the English had tails, but the nastyonallist administration still believes the minds of the Scottish people are malleable enough to accept a number of tall tales.
338

,

04/01/2009 15:39:50
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339

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 15:41:29
#366.

Why not go the whole hog and make all roads toll roads?

Indeed, why not toll pavements, toll air etc. then we wouldn't need any "taxes".

But, just in case, we could keep fuel tax, road tax, VAT, income tax and CT.

Wouldn't it be great if all these taxes were spent on creating things rather than destroying them, or giving them away to the rich?
340

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 15:44:09
227-Connaughtboy-It has been pointed out to me that I chose the wrong interpretation on whose budget was being talking about.
Luckily however my answer here stands – Nothing can be done until a budget has been worked out, and any amount of hot air won’t increase the chances of this changing.
341

brownlie,

04/01/2009 15:44:15
376 Union is Best

The connection between Al Quaeda and Saddam was "discovered" by British Intelligence (sic) so it must be correct!
342

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 15:44:21
375 You don't seem to understand what the Scottish governmen have asked for, it is not a hand out. It is our own money, but advanced to cover the cost of constructing the new bridge and payable back over following years. That is the most cost effective way to pay for capital projects and avoids PFI. It's an entirely reasonable request and would be good for the public purse. The SG are not being unreasonable, it is the Treasury who are being narrow minded and petty.
343

,

04/01/2009 15:46:36
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344

Observer,,

glasgow 04/01/2009 15:46:50
379 Oh I think you'll find the US and the UK had joint responsibility for manufacturing the evidence you refer to.
345

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 15:48:03
#375, Warden.

Why is it, then, that you are prepared to believe tall tales?
346

brownlie,

04/01/2009 15:49:23
375 Warden

I like the use of the word "nastyonalist" with reference to the SNP, backing, as it does, the theory that there was nothing particularly nasty about the UK Government's responsibility for the maiming and murdering of innocents in Iraq.
347

,

04/01/2009 15:54:11
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348

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/01/2009 15:55:50
378 Warden

My comment was that you didn't seem to appreciate that PPP required external finance.

Nothing you have said alters that view.
349

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 15:56:52
#382, Observer,,.

Surely you're not suggesting wrongdoing on the part of the USUK alliance?

Do you really believe that the British Government would "manufacture" evidence?

Remember, "Evidence can neither be manufactured or destroyed.", Met Police, Strathclyde Police, Commons Standards Committee, Holyrood Standards Committee etc.
350

,

04/01/2009 15:57:17
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351

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 15:58:45
50% more of the scotch population are incapacity benefit , than are the English

4% of England domiciles claim incapacity benefit (including many many non whites)

6% of scotchland domiciles claim incapacity benefits (mostly whites)

Dept of Work and Pensions
tinyurl.com/562r43
352

,

04/01/2009 16:00:09
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353

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 16:01:34
388 I think America manufactured most of it, we just accepted it.
354

frank mcbride,

lusitana 04/01/2009 16:02:57
#387, Connaughtboy.

Are you saying that banks are not outside sources of finance?

OR, are you saying that this is not the case, NOW, as most have been, to some extent, Nationalised?

Just seeking clarification.
355

Macbeth 1616,

Fife 04/01/2009 16:06:16
364

But why should the people of the Highlands/Islands who have all this oil revenue of their have to give it up to spend-happy people in the Central Belt? The money should be kept where it is generated, and it feels wrong for the wastrels in their big cities to bleed the hard-working people of the north of their birthrights. "We want a big new Bridge", "we want a big expensive parliament", " we want lots of cash to host a Commonwealth games which will be of no benefit to anyone outside of Glasgow".

Why do these people in the Central Belt need these things, why do they need to steal the money of the Highlanders to do it?
356

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 16:07:01
"366 Mr T hornhill,04/01/2009 15:29:43

According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7235410.stm
the forth road tolls used to bring in £225m per annum. "


Get real, since 1964 £225 million in tolls had been collected, not as you state £225 million per year....
357

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 16:07:50
#390, "42".

I'm arranging a night out at "the restuarant at the end of the Universe", would you like come?
358

Warden An' All, Reborn,

04/01/2009 16:07:56
228-Wardog-We are all shareholders as government are our representatives. At the very least if we actually had a say in the workings of the banks, all citizens of the UK would have to vote on the decisions of debt reduction and loans. Is it economically prudent though for the people to make these decisions of finance over the expertise of the financial world, considering from time to time even the experts can get themselves into trouble? Would we end up jeopardising the banking institutions in favour of grabbing what we can? Isn’t this exactly what government and the financial sector have been blamed for recently?

359

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:08:53


The Answer, what's you point caller.

What is it that you hope to achieve by posting this?

Are you lonely?


360

,

04/01/2009 16:09:20
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361

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 16:10:27
384

Going around the Middle East asking for handouts is the sole preserve of Comrade Broon and Darling.

Thank God the sheiks they bought a big chunk of Barclays Bank or we would have had to bail them oot!!
362

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:11:04
397. Warden Hodges

You've lost me there warden.

It's very simple.....

Now that we are all shareholders in the banks, do you think the Government should use this leverage to reduce our PFI debt?

Cutting Scotland's PFI debt by 50% would raise enough money for the Bridge in about four years time...... that would mean that we'd need some upfront funding from the Block Grant but we'd be talking about £400-500million

Yes or NO

http://www.limmy.com/videos/yesorno/

363

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/01/2009 16:13:32
#394, Macbeth.

You sound strangely like Churchill with regards to Ireland, or perhaps Mountbatten and India.

You wouldn't happen to be called Murphy?
364

Susan Caroline Periano,

Pottstown PA USA 04/01/2009 16:14:41
Though I'm not a resident and it's really none of my business, I feel the UK government should fund this bridge for the people of Scotland. It will also improve relations between Scotland and England.
365

,

04/01/2009 16:17:22
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366

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:20:12
403. Hi Susan

That's what hilarious, it's OUR money we're asking for.

It's not the Uk giving us money that was being spent elsewhere, it's our future block grant that we're tlaking about.

We're simply asking them to reshape our funding profile.

it's an everyday occurrence in the public and private sector.

Apparently not at HM Treasury despite them re'profiling their own spend to bring £18 Billion forward for Labour Spending.


Just brown having another tantrum, he was on the ropes today in Andrew Marr's programme, the mythology of the credit crunch being all America's fault is evaporating...

367

Forthtag,

South Queensferry 04/01/2009 16:26:18
To answer some of the question posed, at £2.3 Bn the tolls woulds be in the region of £50 a day for a car. The total cost using PFI would be over £20 Bn over thirty years. At this level of tolls it is doubtfull whether this project is fundable using PFI!!

I notice none of the above contributers have questioned the cost of the crossing. Why because politicians tell the truth, usually not.

The Scottish Government have brought this situation on themselves, the bridge they are now proposing could be built anywhere else in the world for a cost nearer £0.5 BN. Just look at Denmark, the Middle East, Korea, China, Hong Kong all are building bridges as large if not larger for considerably less than the proposed cost of the Forth Crossing.

Has no one asked the question: "if we need a new bridge because the old one is corroding, then why are we now being told the the existing one will last 80 years?" Incidentally there are no cost in the new crossing for maintaining the current bridge. It currently spends £15m a year on routine maintenance, future cost include £75 for painting, £129m for recabling etc etc, where is this money coming from???

Do politicians tell the truth or is this intended to be a memorial to "Oor Eck" of the SNP!!!!

We are still part of Rip Off Britain!!!
368

zigzag,

04/01/2009 16:29:27
No money for a Brigde to somewhere? Shocking.
369

zigzag,

04/01/2009 16:29:52
No money for a Bridge to somewhere?

Shocking.
370

Tris,

04/01/2009 16:32:26
#328

Yes Faux Cul. Same idea. Ghastly people all over the world pretty much behave in the same way. Mr Brown is already copying Mr Mugabe and Mrs Thatcher4, why not Israel?
371

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04/01/2009 16:33:32
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372

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:34:07

407. The life of the old bridge is extended because the safety factor for public transport only increases it's liespan.

i.e. the more heavier veichles which are a danger to it's structural stability will not be allowed on.

I agree in part about the cost of the bridge, to be fair, it is unknown until a tender is received to build it, I'd have thought putting it out now would get a very competitive price indeed, but I also imagine that the delay caused by the last executive is still being tidied up, i.e. buying land,, preparation, contracts etc.

What would be incredibly funny would be if the SFT by the end of this year was the mechanism for delivery based on non profit distribution.





373

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 16:39:56
410 don't worry about Israel Tony Blair is sorting it all out, with his track record there might not be any Palestinians left when he's finished and et voila problem sorted.
374

brownlie,

04/01/2009 16:42:06
390 The Answer

Do the Department of Works and Pensions really refer to Scotland and it's residents as scotchland and scotch?
375

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:48:46
413. It was cringworthy tv this morning watching brown on Andrew Marr's show.

Weasel words flowed from his wobbling jowls until Anne Robsinson comapred them all to waxworks in madame tussards..... brown wisnae happy.

376

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:50:08

4141 brownlie

I think 'Answer' is a bit mixed up, it probably only get's on the computer when the nurse has left the room. I'm perplxed how it manages to survive in Glasgow with such an anti-scottish and anti-muslim attitude.

377

,

04/01/2009 16:51:31
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378

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 16:52:07
416 His performance was dire and he appeared to be loaded with make up, I wondered what was behind it, a plague of boils perhaps. He has just completely lost it - that becomes more apparent with every passing day.
379

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:56:24
421. ha ha ha h, he did look a bit 'pasty' around the gills.......

It doesn't appear an election is on the cards this year though and I think he know's that this recession hasn't even started yet, unemployment is going to sky rocket come April / tax year........

Salmond and Swinney appear to be coming out all guns balazing over this funding row, article appeared on the Herald and BBC.



380

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:56:42
421. ha ha ha h, he did look a bit 'pasty' around the gills.......

It doesn't appear an election is on the cards this year though and I think he know's that this recession hasn't even started yet, unemployment is going to sky rocket come April / tax year........

Salmond and Swinney appear to be coming out all guns blazing over this funding row, article appeared on the Herald and BBC.



381

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 16:58:18
424 I'll have a look thanks.
382

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 16:59:31

Salmond 'not taking no for an answer' over bridge cash

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2479096.0.Salmond_not_taking_no_for_an_answer_over_bridge_cash.php
383

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 17:04:08
I think that there will be a run on the £ next week. Not a full-scale one but enough to put the shoites right up Brown snot. Then again he a Moron and knows or cares nothing about the real people, his pension is copper bottomed.

Call in the medics, he needs to be sectioned.
384

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 17:09:54
I've said this before and so here we ago again.

Mrs Faux Cul III used to work with people living without abode here in Toulouse. Her job was to make sure they breceived their "rights", under French law. She was their to champion these people against the system.

Everything from getting out of clink, to getting them the "dole" money to getting them their mediacal treatments.

As you can guess many were drug addicts or alcoholics.

She swears blind to me that Brown's face is that of a serious alcoholic.

She says she knows many like him.
385

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 17:11:58
I think that there will be a run on the £ next week.

The questions are will Brown notice it or the BBC report it?
386

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:15:49
428 Hello Sam

429 Why was he covered in make up this morning, it was really obvious he had it on with a trowel, he was hiding something that's for sure. Dunno if it's alcohol but there's something wrong with him.
387

,

04/01/2009 17:22:24
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388

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/01/2009 17:22:59
When Comrade Broon is interviewed on TV, the thing that makes me cringe (apart from his obvious lying) is his 'put on' smile.

God knows who taught him that!!

Maybe plastic surgery next????
389

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:25:16
436 Maybe he had some and it went wrong and that's why he was covered in panstick ! No, that's too good to be true isn't it.
390

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:28:04
424# 'All guns blazing' Moved to Gaza to join their pals then! Wee Alec would make some target.
391

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 17:28:38
His teeth have been done and watch he has "developed" several peculiarities

1 Smile (to show off new teeth
2 Sticks tongue in cheek when a question is being asked of him
3 Holds two hand opposed in front of him, with fingers touchimg, palms inwards, like forming a mental gate through which his thoughts pass(?)

He is a talking Muppet or would be if he had Handlemans hand up his @rse.
392

WHBS,

Leeds 04/01/2009 17:30:07
If the contributors to this forum were typical of Scots people generally - and I know they are not - then what a bunch of sad narrow minded people they would be
393

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:31:50
435 Aye, the Herald is in obvious turmoil at the moment but it's about time Scotland got a better press corp that reported fairly on these issues. The one thing that Jim Murphy has brought with him to Scotland is the New Labour London spin machine that's for sure.

438. The Observer interview with him noted an unfinished glass of win on the table and various other 'props' including his kid interrupting the interview......






394

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:33:21
418 Wardog™,04/01/2009 16:50:08

"4141 brownlie

I think 'Answer' is a bit mixed up, it probably only get's on the computer when the nurse has left the room. I'm perplxed how it manages to survive in Glasgow with such an anti-scottish and anti-muslim attitude."

I have nothing against muslims, and I'm sure they won't be happy about being equal to the scotch.

Talking about Glasgow, another "iconic" "worldclass" report on said place:

"MURDER rates in Dublin are now the sixth highest in Europe.

Only five other European capitals have higher homicide levels in the latest United Nations league table.

Dublin comes four places ahead of London , which ranks 10th in the list.

And according to the figures, Ireland as a whole is 10th in Europe, with a worse record for violent deaths than England and Wales.

In Ireland and Britain, only Glasgow, Glasgow Scotland, remit of the scotch governemt, comes ahead of Dublin -- in fifth place. Latvian capital Riga was number one on the list."

Something for the scotch to gloat about, being ahead of London!

Don't forget that most murders in London are black on black, yet most murders in scotland are scotch on scotch, keep up the good work..

tinyurl.com/8hebux

395

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 17:33:56
#441
WHBS,
Leeds 04/01/2009 17:30:07


"If the contributors to this forum were typical of Scots people generally - and I know they are not - then what a bunch of sad narrow minded people they would be"

"and your point is caller?"
396

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:34:09
439. Shamelus

Shamelus, you off the sauce at last, I was getting quite worried for ye when I heard that wetherspoons were promoting 99p pints onyl to read you'd been sipping fortified wine on yer return from the boozer.

All guns blazing indeed, Brown has scored another phenomenal own goal.

Every day the SNP grow stronger in Scotland.

397

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:35:44


445. Madder than a shoite house rat




walkies!
398

Faux Cul,

04/01/2009 17:37:24
Anyway somewhere else in this Hootsmahon edition is the news that Brown likes cabbage.

Open season on him boys?
399

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 17:38:37
All those who have the true interests of Scotland at heart should raise their hands and thank Maggie Thatcher and her two lovechildren Blair and Brown.

Those three have done more between them to restore Scotland to her rightful sovereignty than a hundred years of speaches and political rallies, albeit that was hardly their intention as they sold our interests down the drain at every oppotunity.

This latest contribution from the single-handed saviour of the world's economy simply shines more light for those still in the dark.

Scotland ought no longer to have a place for champagne socialists promising to protect 'the workers' from 'the bosses'.

Ex-public school lords and ladies, and repentant former CND card carrying ex-marxists do not impress many outside of James Keir Hardie's red till I die birthplace.

While I admire their stubborn defence of the party they grew up with, I find it sad that same party has abandoned all pretence to the moral and social precepts it once said it championed.

In the free Scotland dreamed of by Keir Hardie and the Labour movement up until the 1950s we could make our own politics, earn our own keep and spend the rewards of our own labour rather than be the UK's political Lipton's orphan, making do with big sister Britannia's hand-me-downs.

Those apologists for Thatcher, Blair and Brown isn't it about time you grew a set of cojones and stood up for your own families and communities here in Scotland instead of always lying there thinking of England?
400

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:39:00


445......Homicide definitions vary across Europe and in Ireland, it includes both murder and manslaughter........


Can you post an apology for your purposely misleading posting now please?


The Republic had 1.59 murders per 100,000 people, while England and Wales had 1.41 and Northern Ireland had 1.33, making it 13th on the list.

You must be so proud of england 'answer'.....
401

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:39:52
447 It's a gift for the SNP. Westminster have brought forward their own capital spend budget to front load it but are refusing to do the same for ours. It's political suicide. There will be no shortage of volunteers to hand them the gun.
402

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:42:16
454 You don't get this at all do you, quite sad really.
403

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:45:08

454. Are you saying the Labour intended to break it's promise made at the election to remove bridge tolls?

404

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:49:00
454. Do you understand what they have asked for?

20 years worth of reduced Block grant, about £100Million less each year to pay forfor the Bridge at £2Billion, basically reshaping the Scottish Block Grant Profile.

or

30 Years of PPP payments at say £250Million each year costing approximately £70Billion......

or

Reduced capital spend for the next 5 years to accumulate £2Billion, that's about £400million of capital investment cuts each and every year.......



You are advocating wasting Public Money or slashing budgets.

Now which is it?






405

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:49:52

(correction) £7Billion

406

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 17:50:04

(correction) £7Billion

407

Conan the Librarian™,

04/01/2009 17:50:05
454
Begging to London?

Getting our money back, rather.

"Free"...there are still some socialists about sm753.

All the capitalists' money seems to have evaporated, leaving the real hard cash, i.e. oil and whisky, extant.

You can't export your house in Surbiton...
408

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 17:51:12
454 sm753
In case you missed it:
#67 livilion,livingston 04/01/2009 01:17:56

47 Observer

From your namesake a year ago, the figure of £1,100bn quoted then is now over £2,000bn and rising fast:

"Treasury debt is twice Chancellor's 'sustainable' figure", says think-tank

Heather Stewart,
Observer economics correspondent
Sunday 4 February 2007

"Gordon Brown has hidden liabilities worth more than £500bn, and the true size of the public debt is up to 87 per cent of GDP, more than twice the Treasury's 'sustainable' limit, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

Using the government's calculations for the cost of public sector pensions, private finance initiative schemes, and Network Rail's debt, which the Treasury guarantees, the think-tank has reached a total figure of more than £1,100bn - twice what the Treasury admits to.

The IFS's Christine Frayne said the £100bn-worth of PFI payments the government has signed up to were not the same as debts, because Whitehall might be able to negotiate them down in future, But she argued that the Treasury's calculations fail to represent the government's true fiscal position. 'It would be nice to see these liabilities taken into account in some way,' she said..."
409

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:52:22
462 That was obviously a planted post by a troll. No doubt it will be on AM2's blog by now along with the rest of his paranoid nonsense.
410

livilion,

livingston 04/01/2009 17:52:50
454 sm753
In case you also missed it:
#55 livilion,livingston 04/01/2009 01:07:49

47 Observer
>>why can't the Treasury provide credit facilities to build a simple bridge when their Lord and Master is a financial superman - allegedly. <<

From The Spectator:
The true extent of Britain's debt
Fraser Nelson
Wednesday, 10th December 2008
"How much is Britain’s true national debt?

Gordon Brown says 37% of GDP, the ONS says 43% of GDP – but this is just government debt.
The reason Britain is in so much trouble is that our corporate and household debts are huge. It is the combination that makes us such a credit liability – but no one has ever put together a combination.

Until now.

Michael Saunders from CitiGroup has calculated ‘external debt’ – ie, what Britain owes the rest of the world.
It is not 40% but 400% of GDP, the highest in the G7 by some margin.
The next down, France, is 176%. America, flagellating itself for blowing such a debt bubble, is just 100%. Japan is about half America."

The rest of the article is here:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/business/trading-floor/3078296/the-true-extent-of-britains-debt.thtml
411

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 17:56:51
466 there was another article in the Spectator too which said that Britain's consolidated debt was about 400% of GDP. To add further costly debt through PFI would in these economic conditions be complete and utter lunacy and wholly irresponsible of the Scottish government. PFI is a non-starter.
412

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 18:00:08
469 You are addressing a troll which everyone else ignored. Don't you feel a bit silly ?
413

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/01/2009 18:02:11
466 Oh sorry I see you included the Spectator article as well. Scary stuff indeed.
414

D Napier,

04/01/2009 18:15:20
Maybe it's time for Messrs Salmond and Swinney to accept that the best way to pay for the new bridge is to introduce a toll as is the case on virtually every comparable crossing worldwide.

But of course they won't do this as they are not mature enough to put their hands up and admit that the abolition of tolls was the wrong thing to do.

This whole fiasco just proves that the SNP still do not have the maturity to govern effectively.
415

Conan the Librarian™,

04/01/2009 18:22:13
457
Sums up Broon exactly, no?
416

Wardog™,

04/01/2009 18:24:19


".....the abolition of tolls was the wrong thing to do......"

The Tories haven't changed, still the old nasty party

Didn't Labour and the Liberals pledge to scrap ALL bridge tools during the 2007 election?


417

Conan the Librarian™,

04/01/2009 18:29:34
465

Fakey:

What did he do to you?

Break your heart?

Not pay you?

What?
418

Displaced Scot,

UK 04/01/2009 18:39:15
PFI paid for by tolls would be the best way to pay for this Bridge. The Dartford crossing has been paid for several times over. The tolls were to be abolished in the late nintys, but we got New Labour and they were kept on, and they have just been increased by 50%. The congestion is really great.
419

Conan the Librarian™,

04/01/2009 18:42:31
467
Ah.

Would this