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World of pain shames Obama

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Published Date: 19 April 2009
JACK Bauer would surely have approved. The fictional tough-guy agent from hit TV series 24 was notoriously robust in his interrogation of suspects who he felt were a clear and present danger to US national security.
For Bauer, setting CIA operatives loose to bang suspects' heads into walls up to 30 times in a row, to deprive them of sleep for periods of up to a week, to slap them repeatedly in the face and abdomen, to confine them to small dark boxes for hours at a time, and to suffocate them with water to induce the perception that they are drowning would have been all in a day's work, albeit unnecessarily time-consuming.

Yet what emerged last week in one of the most astonishing publications of formerly classified memos by a Western peace-time government is that such interrogation techniques did not come from the realms of fiction but from a procedures manual officially endorsed by the former Bush administration.

The so-called "torture" memos, part of the interrogation policy championed by then Vice-President Dick Cheney, outlined the approved techniques that the CIA could use to extract information from terrorist suspects in a network of secret overseas prisons following the 9/11 attacks and the start of the War on Terror in 2001.

But the most striking aspect of their publication by the Obama administration is the detailed legal advice that was used to justify their use. Although the consensus now appears to be that the techniques amounted to straightforward torture, Bush-era lawyers argued that they were not, giving the green light for the CIA to apply them as they saw fit.

President Barack Obama took the decision to allow the Justice Department to release the memos despite pleas from four previous CIA directors and the present holder of the post that they should not be in the public domain. The President is believed to have wanted to be seen to be acting voluntarily rather than being forced to publish them under a Freedom of Information legislation request lodged by the American Civil Liberties Union.

But his further decision to rule out any prosecution of the CIA operatives involved in applying the techniques has brought a flood of criticism from liberal commentators who fear the President, despite his own objections to the methods, has now become complicit in their application.

David Cole, a professor at Georgetown University Law Centre, and the author of Justice At War: The Men and Ideas That Shaped America's 'War on Terror', said: "The four legal memos released by the Obama administration on Thursday confirm in excruciating detail that the Bush administration employed twisted and macabre legal reasoning to authorise the unspeakable – the torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of human beings.

"Obama's refusal to hold accountable those responsible for the wrongs so evident from the memos is unacceptable. A child would recognise these tactics as cruel and inhumane."

He adds, however, that it is not the line CIA operatives that should face sanctions. "Rather, it is the lawyers and high-level government officials who set this scheme in motion and made it possible. These documents are irrefutable evidence that government officials, including lawyers employed in the Office of Legal Counsel, a Justice Department office meant to serve as the "constitutional conscience" of the Executive Branch, set out to manipulate the law to reach repugnant, illegal results that contravene the very ideals President Obama says must not be sacrificed."

Published excerpts from memos in force between 2002 and 2005 illustrate the arguments used to justify interrogation techniques, making them legal under American law and circumventing United Nations codes on torture.

Take sleep deprivation, one of 10 techniques used in the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, a suspected al-Qaeda logistics specialist. A memo reads: "Generally, a detainee undergoing this technique is shackled in a standing position with his hands in front of his body, which prevents him from falling asleep but also allows him to move around within a two to three-foot diameter."

The legal justification runs: "It is clear that depriving someone of sleep does not involve severe physical pain… Nor could sleep deprivation constitute a procedure calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses, so long as sleep deprivation (as you have informed us is your intent) is used for limited periods, before hallucinations or other profound disruptions of the senses would occur."

Or consider the justification for "waterboarding", a technique that the US described as torture when used by the Japanese against American prisoners in the Second World War. The memos say: "This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of 'suffocation and incipient panic', ie, the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of 12 to 24 inches… The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth. The procedure may then be repeated."

The lawyers ruled: "Although the subject may experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, the waterboard does not inflict physical pain… Although the waterboard constitutes a threat of imminent death, prolonged mental harm must none the less result to violate the statutory prohibition infliction of severe mental pain or suffering…

"In the absence of prolonged mental harm, no severe mental pain or suffering would have been inflicted, and the use of these procedures would not constitute torture."

The interrogation methods, authorised at the beginning of 2002 and some used as late as 2005 in the CIA's secret prisons, were among the Bush administration's most closely guarded secrets. The four memos give an extraordinarily detailed account of the CIA's methods and the Justice Department's long struggle, in the face of graphic descriptions of brutal tactics, to square them with international and domestic law.

The four legal opinions, released in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the ACLU, were written by the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, the highest authority in interpreting the law in the executive branch.

The first of the memos, from August 2002, was signed by the head of the Office of Legal Counsel, Jay S Bybee, and gave the CIA its first detailed legal approval for waterboarding and other harsh treatment. Three others, signed by Steven G Bradbury, sought to reassure the agency in May 2005 that its methods were still legal, even when multiple methods were used in combination, and despite the prohibition in international law against "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment.

A more pressing concern for the CIA is that the revelations might give new momentum to a full-blown investigation into Bush administration counter-terrorism programmes and possible torture prosecutions.

Within minutes of the release of the memos, Senator Patrick J Leahy, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said that the memos illustrated the need for his proposed independent "Commission of Inquiry", which would offer immunity in return for candid testimony.

Obama revoked all legal opinions on interrogation on his second day in office, when he also outlawed harsh interrogations and ordered the CIA's secret prisons to be closed. The ACLU said the memos clearly describe criminal conduct and underscore the need to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate who authorised and carried out torture.

The CIA has never revealed the location of its so-called black sites overseas, but intelligence officials, aviation records and news reports have placed them in Afghanistan, Thailand, Poland, Romania and Jordan, among other countries. Agency officials have said that fewer than 100 prisoners have been held since the programmes was created in 2002, and about 30 were subjected to what the CIA called "enhanced" interrogation techniques.

There is relief in CIA circles, however, that its staff are unlikely to be prosecuted.

As Kori Schake, a former national security adviser on defence issues to President Bush, put it: "It seems to me that President Obama hit the balance about right in rejecting the use of those techniques and releasing the information, but acknowledging that the intelligence community was working on a very difficult problem and conducting the interrogations in good faith with the legal advice they were receiving.

"Subjecting people to prosecution under those circumstances would be a dangerous politicisation of difficult choices made by those serving our country."



Instructions approved by Bush

• Sleep deprivation

"Generally, a detainee undergoing this technique is shackled in a standing position with his hands in front of his body, which prevents him from falling asleep."

• Dietary manipulation

"This technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetising, but nutritionally complete diet."

• Attention grasp

"This technique consists of grasping the individual with both hands, one hand on each side of the collar opening, in a controlled and quick motion."

• Facial slap

"The interrogator slaps the individual's face with fingers slightly spread… The purpose of the facial slap is to induce shock."

• Waterboarding

"This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of 'suffocation and incipient panic', ie, the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of 12 to 24 inches… The sensation of drowning is relieved by the removal of the cloth."

• Wall standing

"Used to induce muscle fatigue. The individual stands about four to five feet from a wall… His arms are stretched out in front of him, with fingers resting on the wall."

• Confinement with insects

"You would like to place Zubaydah (an alleged al-Qaeda operative] in a cramped confinement box with an insect. He appears to have a fear of insects."

The full article contains 1623 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
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1

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/04/2009 01:04:34
I don't think in the real world that Obama had a choice. Oh it's sickening for those of us who protested time and again over what was happening, especially with the UK Govt's complicity in the whole process. But unfortunately it's not really possible for Obama to order the arrest and trial of George Bush. We can only dream.
2

Los Angeles,

19/04/2009 01:11:14

But unfortunately it's not really possible for Obama to order the arrest and trial of George Bush. (Oberver)

There is a group of smart lawyers gathering evidence to call Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld to account. They will succeed because there is so much evidence around to collect; the only question is whether the evildoers will get jail sentences or perpetual ignominy for defiling the American Constitution.


3

Jim A,

19/04/2009 02:45:06
#2 They will probably get a Presidential pardon. I don't think anyone from the Bush Administration will ever stand trial. They will have the dirt on everyone.
4

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19/04/2009 03:21:30
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2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 04:02:47
And really,how can Dubyas orders shame Obama? Can,or should he bring charges against public servants who"Ver Just Following Orders"? Well,I think yes.That excuse didn't flush at Nurenburg,and it shoulden't flush now.There is a moral responsibility the supercedes duty. (And damned if I know how spell check works.)
6

Mashimaro,

China 19/04/2009 04:09:40
Obama has just emasculated the CIA. When all is said and done, these techniques are extremely mild. Personally, though, I don't believe in the use of torture as it has proved not to give any tangible results.
Now I read an interesting thing the other day. That those Nazis were tortured before the Nuremburg trials and much of what they said was just pants. I wonder if those records should be allowed to stand, given the idea that torture produces no reliable evidence.
7

2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 04:18:13
Thanks,Mashimaro,now I,too,can spell Nuremburg. Although,I've only your word for it.
8

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19/04/2009 04:22:56
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2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 04:24:51
Oh, and by the way,Mashimaro, I underwent water boarding a bit back, during training. Yeah, it's torture.If you don't believe,try it sometime.
10

2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 04:40:44
#8-Is that you,Postit?
11

GibsonAustralia,

Sydney 19/04/2009 04:44:55
Theres a hypocrisy here. A president is down on torture yet... gives a green light to further abortions.
Does anyone else see a flaw in Mr. Obamas moral code?
12

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19/04/2009 04:48:45
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2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 04:54:39
Gibson,abortions and the right to have them,is a done deal,and have nothing to do w/the subject at hand.Just by the way,Roofus and Tukker say hello to Boots,and the other cat.(Sorry,don't remember his name.)
14

2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 04:59:05
#12-Hope you don't mind if I just keep calling you Postit? It's easier than that new moniker.Who the hell keeps fargin with you? You and me don't meet eye to eye always,but damned if I'd ever ban you or anyone else.
15

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19/04/2009 05:17:57
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16

W Smith,

Middle East 19/04/2009 05:21:00
This is war not tiddly winks.

The torture of terrorists who themselves use torture is justified.

END OF STORY.

So whats with the fake outrage at Bush?

The Scottish Labour supporters and SNP supporters should note:

One Iraqi living in the US received a video tape from Saddam Hussein showing his sister being raped! This was punishment for criticising Saddam.

The Scottish Labour Party never disciplined George Galloway over his support for this thug. They didn't discipline the late Ron Brown for supporting North Korea's Kim Jong Il either.

Alex Salmond is prepared to be seen publicly with George Galloway, and both these numpties supported a dictatorship in Moscow that TORTURED AND KILLED MILLIONS OF POLITICAL PRISONERS.

BTW
There is an English woman in jail at the moment in Dubai. She was put on trial without a jury or a lawyer to represent her.

She is now sharing a cell with five other women who share one toilet amongst them.

Her 'crime' is that she was accused of adultery by her ex-husband who is muslim. He didn't have to prove the accusation as his word take precedent over his wife's testimony.

THE SILENCE FROM THE SNIVELLING SNP SUPPORTERS IS, AS USUAL, DEAFENING.
17

W Smith,

Middle East 19/04/2009 05:24:22
Any chance of the SNP pushing for the Hamas leaders to be charged with child abuse.

As in training kids as young as five for Jihad.

So Nicola, that's not "illegal" then, eh?
18

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19/04/2009 05:31:22
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19

2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 05:31:39
Postit-Funny, but I kind of like H.C.,We go back a few years. But that said, censorship sucks.Your writing "style" seems to be in english,so where's the problem? Yeah,You come down hard on the west,and especially my land,but so what? As far as I can see,that's your right. If I have a serious bitch w/what you say,I'll jump w/both feet,and you know that.Anywayu,how's Dennis? (And up yers;-))
20

2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 05:39:24
Mr.Smith-So we should do as the bad guys do,and torture,ect,in the name of who? Two wrongs do not make a right.(but three lefts do).
21

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19/04/2009 05:39:37
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Jim A,

19/04/2009 05:53:46
Well I would just like to say, good morning :-)
23

Jim A,

19/04/2009 05:54:58
Oh forgot to add, blacks negative, reds live and make sure he is nice and wet ;-)
24

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19/04/2009 05:56:35
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19/04/2009 05:58:47
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Mashimaro,

19/04/2009 06:36:12
#11 No, but I'm sure you'll point it out to us, complete with landing mother ship and tin foil hats
27

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19/04/2009 06:39:25
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Mashimaro,

China 19/04/2009 06:39:34
#9 gau gau, but it's not meant to be pleasant neh?
29

Mashimaro,

China 19/04/2009 06:41:09
#27 strange place this postit
30

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19/04/2009 07:02:10
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,

19/04/2009 07:58:45
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,

19/04/2009 08:21:27
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,

19/04/2009 10:09:14
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34

Media at One,

19/04/2009 10:37:49
I dont condone torture, there is no way it can ever be justified.
First the charges need to be made, then the person under investigation must have their day in court, then the sentence must be passed.
If the sentence is death so be it, but it must first be proved you cant just put someone in a lock up and beat them, that is barbaric.
Problem is, the world is brutal and its going to get worse and the West and its politically correct masses are soon to be the ones being tortured by the majority of the world who are not PC bound.
That is the real world and the Westerners who cannot accept that will suffer the consequences. Maybe not in the next 15 years but not long after.
There are far more nations opposed to PC and democracy than there are pro democracy and PC.
35

billengland,

19/04/2009 10:59:01
Obama should be putting all the torturers and those who condoned them on trial, as he is obliged to do by US law.

In failing to do this, he is himself breaking the law.

Another criminal rears his ugly head in the White House.
36

Media at One,

19/04/2009 11:06:22
invictager

Problem is, we need to first prove that the person in question is a terrorist. If we just killed them all it would result in a free for all and we would end up killing each other.
The West has been throttled by a PC brigade, which is why the CIA and some governments go underground and do these things.
In our western nations in this day and age, prisoners have more rights than civilians, murderers get more recognition than victims, prisoners get sattelitte television whereas some hard working law abiding families cannot afford it. Some poverty stricken families with bright children cannot afford to send them to university, yet rapists and murderers can study law and medicine for free if they wish. Jails have better equipment that schools and the police are accused of heavy handed tactics when confronted with a crowd of thousands of screaming and aggressive protesters. In other words the west has become a world in which the law abiders and protectors are under more scrutiny and more pressure than those who are opposed to law. In the end we will not have a police force because it will not be worth the effort. And then those who destroyed the policing system will be the first to shout about it not being available to protect them.
No capital punishment will destroy your society in the end.
No corporal punishment will breed rude, lazy and ambitionless children.
No hard time for prisoners will result in a society that produces more criminals than ever before.
A society that is tricked into opposing its police force is a society that is on its way to no policing system. And some people think that one or two policemen acting irrationally within a frenzied moment is bad. The opposite will be much worse.
So whilst I believe that Bush and Cheyne should be put on trial, I also believe that the West needs to leave the PC brigade behind and move back to a more responsble approach to life, criminals, civilians, schools and respect.
37

Media at One,

19/04/2009 11:10:14
billengland

It is not that simple Bill. The life you live right now hinges on him NOT placing people like Cheyne and Bush on trial.
If he did put them on trial, the radical fundamentalists would use it as a victory for their masses, thus their march on the West and their absolute need to destory you, me and the rest of us would gain more support.
I am not condoning Bush or Cheyne, I despise both of them. But placing them on trial would be dangerous for western stability.
38

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19/04/2009 11:28:47
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Media at One,

19/04/2009 11:39:09
The other fundamental difference between the West and the rest is this; In the West, our PC tendencies and freedoms allow us to confront our governments, our police and our systems. We want our leaders to be prosecuted for ills, yet in the rest of the world, they protect their leaders and their actions. So many Chinese people will defend their leaders against western criticism, whereas the west will criticise their own.
Thus, the West will defeat itself in the end.
40

Media at One,

19/04/2009 12:16:12
Cutty Sark

I am not condoning the behaviour of the police, but the media and public frenzy surrounding these incidents is one of the most dangerous aspects surrounding British society in many years.
How many police officials worked that day? How many of them acted in a manner that has been described as heavy handed? And then how do we know that they just acted the way they did out of sheer abuse of power as opposed to fear in the heat of the moment? In my eyes, the actions of the few police officials is not as dangerous as frenzy of the majority of the media and the public.
41

Let's have the truth,

Australia 19/04/2009 12:24:41
Those who claim torturing "Terrorists" is justified, themselves sink to the level of those they torture.
42

Media at One,

19/04/2009 12:34:35
Lets have the truth

I agree with you, you cannot torture people it is bang out of order. It can never be justified. But as I said earlier, the problem we have in this world is that our western ways are soon to be taken away from us by those who are not obligiated to behave in a PC manner.

I would rather see a fair trial, then a sentence and then the death penatly if it is warranted.
43

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

19/04/2009 12:41:39
19..2 dogs..I am assuming by your post that Postmark is still accusing me of deleting his posts..I can assure you that I am not...I prefer that his comments are left for other posters to read.

I did however, telephone the Scotsman and spoke to a member of staff re the continual deletion of my posts commenting on stories re China, particularly the Panchen Lama..I requested that they check this out..could Postmarks continual bans be due to the fact that it is HE who is deleting other people's posts? I did after all state that I found it ironic that Communist China was censoring my comments on a Scottish newspaper...
44

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19/04/2009 13:06:32
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2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 14:06:14
Hi,H.C. I wish you guys would just be tolerant of one another.You and Postit need to respect the fact that you hate each others guts,and let other posters decide who is the idiot, and who is not.(And when the hell did I become the peacemaker here?)Also,H.C.,I meant what I said above @ 19, I think you are for real.
46

Jason,

Japan 19/04/2009 14:10:54
If President Obama will not prosecute CIA operatives for conducting torture, it seems extremely unlikely he will initiate an independent investigation into the attacks on 11 September 2001. Because his agenda is not justice, but to protect the image and reputation of the United States. Lawyer? Give me a break.
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19/04/2009 14:37:04
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19/04/2009 15:58:22
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2dogs in D.C.,

19/04/2009 16:00:40
Well,Cutty,Gens.Grant and Lee also "hated" but there was respect.
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19/04/2009 16:28:31
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19/04/2009 16:31:35
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billengland,

19/04/2009 16:53:07
#55

Influence in low places
53

billengland,

19/04/2009 16:55:14
Media at One

Thanks for your comments.

I'm not as pessimistic as you; we will prevail by insisting on due process, the only way to go.
54

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/04/2009 20:50:23
Reading these posts is immensely depressing. Where is the evidence that the ''West'' is under attack ? Everywhere you look it is the opposite. We are the ones who are attacking others, in pursuit of oil. We can't really do things like invade Iraq and Afghanistan and expect no retaliation. We are the aggressors and then we blame people for reacting to that.

On the subject of the death penalty by all means bring it in. On the proviso that everyone who supports it places their name in a lottery a few of which will be drawn every year and executed. If you want to run the risk of executing someone who is innocent, take the same risk yourself.
55

Mashimaro,

China 20/04/2009 01:36:51
As you know I think you people are being very naieve in your belief that everyone plays by the rules. As Media One says, they don't. They will, however, use those rules to rape your society and break it down to use for their own. I was amazed that Sharia law is being allowed in the west. I don't see western law being allowed in Saudi or Syria.
If people come to your country then they should fit in with YOUR culture, not the other way around. They have chosen to live in your country because they think it is better than the country they came from. Hence you are doing them no favours to make your culture bend to theirs. You should be worried and doing everything possible to protect white/european/men's rights. Seriously.
Of course the problem with this particular torture is that these people were not on a battlefield at all. They were picked up in their own homes or when they were visiting a completely unrelated country after the US invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.
#62 Where is the west under attack? Once again, Sharia Law in your country, in the US and other places. When your air hostesses cannot wear a christian cross but others can wear out of order headdresses becauses it's their religion. When people take piggy banks off their desks for fear of "offending" others. When you don't even say "Merry Christmas" when you are built on a christian faith and it is inbred in your culture. When you don't put up Christmas trees, when you allows little girls to wear scarves to school that are not part of your culture. When a man that preaches hate and death against your people gets sent to prison and while he's away your country gives him a new kitchen. Oh it's happening to you. Maybe not in the form of planes being parked on your head, but it is happening.
56

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 20/04/2009 07:51:06
Obama finds himself in the difficult position of trying to balance the Rule Of Law against the need of public servants being able to act if they have been given advice from the justice department that a course of action is legal.

While there is a need for surety amongst government officials, the fact that the Justice Department has massive staff replacement when an administration changes show that the advice that comes from it will always be politically motivated.

Though I believe that the right thing to do would be to bring the people who authorized the torture to trial, I do not think that that will be possible in the US.

If these people are ever to be brought to justice for their crimes then it will have to be done by the ICC, which the US refuses to recognize.

I do not envy the US officials who have to go overseas and preach the merits off the rule of law when their own government so blatantly circumvents it on the basis of political expediency.
57

Mashimaro,

China 20/04/2009 10:20:14
#66 It would be such a better world if the US did not go overseas and preach.
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20/04/2009 10:36:02
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20/04/2009 12:41:01
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20/04/2009 14:36:33
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 20/04/2009 15:44:29
Khaleed Sheikh Mohammed was water-boarded 183 times in a single month. and then this guy confessed to the september 11'th crimes yet the confession was considered ridiculous. This practice produced no intelligence of value whatsoever.

There has been a cabal of high ranking officials like John Yoo, Alberto Gonzales and John Ashcroft (& others) who actually led the government with a series of memos & decisions to oversee the torturing of people and even the torturing of people to death. John Yoo born in Vietnam a communist no doubt. The others still traitors every one of them.

But unfortunately the congress then legalized the torture of people to death with the Military Commissions Act.

A nation whose resources are turned towards this is a nation with a very serious date with judgement. the americans should read the first book of the bible Genesis chapter 1 where it is said that man is created in god's image. We should not be torturing men.
62

skrekk,

USA 21/04/2009 22:24:44
To Mashimaro, W Smith, and others who support torture:
the question you should ask yourself is whether you support the torture of the innocent, or anyone (including the guilty) who does not have the information you want. We know that Maher Arar and Murat Kurnaz were tortured, yet were factually innocent. We also suspect that the US tortured the 7 & 9 year-old sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed with insects, while their father listened to their screams. We know that the US has freed without charge over 2/3rds of those it held at Guantanamo, likely after years of abuse. And we know that the US has prosecuted waterboarding as torture in the past, most recently in 1983 in Texas, and has executed or court martialed others for it before that. Finally, we know that the US justified its illegal invasion of Iraq largely based on false information which we tortured out of Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi (he was the sole source for an Iraq - al Qaeda link), and another source we knew to be unreliable. All of the information we extracted from al-Libi has since been proven completely false...after one million people have been needlessly slaughtered, a country demolished, and the balance of power destabilized in the region. So the question is, do you support the torture of those who are innocent, or don't have the information you seek?
63

Mashimaro,

China 27/04/2009 01:31:56
#72 Shrekk... once again you kid yourself into believing that the motive of invading Iraq was in any way linked to "information" that "threatened US security". We know it was not. It was for far difference reasons - the oil, appeasing the Saudis who didn't like to have such a powerful secular leader on their doorstep, etc etc. Anyone who looks at 9/11 knows that the US government was lying, lying, lying. We know that it has lied before, several times. We know it has stood back and watched its people die for its own political gains and we know that under the right circumstances it will sacrifice its civilians for its own personal gain. To link 9/11 to Iraq is a big mistake except to say that 9/11 was used as an excuse to invade Iraq. So I have a difficult time believing anything that comes out of the Bush administration as being fact.
That being said, Shrekk... it was war. War is not pretty. By it's nature people get hurt. Many of those are innocent people - as we've just witnessed in Palestine. The techniques the US used were very mild compared to what is out there. Those being tortured were not in any physical danger. Ironically, I guess if they had been in Palestine and been burned to death with a phosphorus bomb no one would care much. But they go slapped around a little or water boarded now everyone is weeping. Give me a break!
I would be far more interested in knowing who is Asio know where Mr Mamdouh Habib was when they were telling his family they didn't know and when he was being electrocuted in Egypt.

 

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