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Poison from the pulpit

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Published Date: 03 June 2007
A FORTNIGHT ago, in this column, I touched on the frustration of being a practising Catholic at odds with the Church's dogmatic, intemperate and ultimately self-defeating stance on issues relating to sexuality. Little did I imagine that Cardinal Keith O'Brien - once seen as on the liberal wing of the Church - was preparing to illustrate my point in such spectacular fashion.
Surely, I can't have been the only Catholic to listen in open-mouthed disbelief as the leader of the Church in Scotland used a sermon to mark the 40th anniversary of the Abortion Act to insist MPs who continue to support it risk losing the right to H
oly Communion.

Of course, the Church has every right to wage a war of words against an act it sees as a crime against humanity; the fact that its leaders focus on terminations to the exclusion of virtually everything else is distressing, but not undemocratic. Where the Cardinal overstepped the line last week, however, was to resort to what is at best emotional blackmail and at worst a threat to the political system. By pressurising Catholic MPs in this way, the Church is swapping its role as lobbyist for something altogether more sinister. If it gets away with this, how long before the threat of "excommunication" is extended to the position of Catholic MPs and MSPs on other issues such as civil partnerships or sex education? It doesn't take a great leap, either, to imagine it dangled over ordinary church-goers. If Catholic MPs who support the abortion law should surrender the right to Communion then why not the Catholic voters who endorse them?

But the most offensive aspect of the Cardinal's attack is the way it reduces Communion - believed by Catholics to be a sacred gift from God - to a bargaining tool in the political process. And they say MPs are cynical.

I hate the fact abortion has become a Catholic issue. I don't understand why you have to be religious to see terminating a pregnancy as a moral wrong and a social ill. But I am with the Church in as much as I think the social acceptance of abortion undermines the value of early life and leaves many women depressed and unsupported for years to come.

It is also pretty clear the current Act is flawed. Legalised to help the desperate, abortion is increasingly being treated as an alternative method of contraception, to the extent that - according to the latest figures - 13,801 were carried out last year in Scotland alone. But there is a big difference between believing abortion is wrong or undesirable and believing it should be outlawed completely.

This is the rocky moral terrain in which Catholic politicians find themselves. While Church leaders have the luxury of being ideologues, MPs must operate in the real world. And they have to balance their hatred of abortion with the knowledge that it will never be "abolished"; that prior to the introduction of the 1967 act, tens of thousands of women a year needed hospital treatment in relation to botched terminations.

Of course, there will be ambitious politicians who simply swap their religious convictions for a seat at Westminster. But many others who "give advocacy" to the abortion laws do so for legitimate reasons. They may be conscious of the need to represent all their constituents (not just those who share their philosophical perspective) or they may feel the best way to tackle the scale of the problem is to campaign for reductions in the time limit.

In the meantime, the Church continues to be inconsistent in its approach to how political it should be. Earlier this month, Pope Benedict took the opportunity to attack "liberation theology", which emphasises the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor through activism. "If the Church were to start transforming herself into a directly political subject, she would do less, not more, for the poor and for justice." But if it's not within its remit to be active on social justice issues, how can it justify its blatant attempt to hijack the political process over abortion?

Add to this inconsistency the lack of sensitivity Cardinal O'Brien displayed to both the victims of Thomas Hamilton and women who have had abortions when he compared the scale of the "trade" to "one or two Dunblane massacres a day", and you have one counterproductive day's work.

Leaders like O'Brien are hopelessly out of step with the Catholic laity. You only have to look at the attitude towards contraception to understand that. A quick glance around Scottish parishes suggests the majority of families are disregarding the rules on birth control, without feeling the urge to excommunicate themselves.

The problem with most Catholics (including myself) is that, while they don't take the Church's pronouncements on sexual issues particularly seriously, nor do they speak out against hardline leaders.

I don't believe I am the only one in my parish who feels ambivalent about the abortion law; or who feels queasy when they see images of placard-wielding pro-lifers picketing abortion clinics, but I can't be sure, because it's something I seldom hear discussed. Yet when a cardinal threatens to withhold a God-given sacrament from politicians who fail to toe the line, it is surely time for us to voice our disapproval.

Not that I believe it will make any difference. Catholic leaders expect ordinary people to take their lead from the top not the other way around. It has been said Pope Benedict would rather have a Church that consisted of a handful of 'true believers' than one that embraced 'cultural relativists' like me. If he and his cardinals keep up these hardball tactics, if they continue in this affront to democracy, they may well get their wish.



The full article contains 966 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 June 2007 7:17 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Abortion
 
1

walter,

03/06/2007 00:34:54

This man tries to blackmail our politicians on the subject of abortions because he says it is gods law, which tells me he believes gods law is above mans law.
He would be the first to call the police to up hold mans law if I were to take a bull into a church and burn it at the alter even though this creates a pleasant odour for the lord as stated in (Lev. 1:9) and it is mans law that prevents me from being able to do it.
Hypocrite

2

jabberjocky,

ed 03/06/2007 00:47:03

If McDonalds continue to serve big macs i will no longer give them my custom.

3

Jim A,

03/06/2007 00:58:03

The Catholic church blackmailing people to get them to toe their line is nothing new, they have been doing it for hundreds of years. They need to put their own house in order first. As a Catholic I can't stand this bunch of sanctimonious gits.

4

Tom More,

Canada 03/06/2007 01:01:39

I am not sure, but I think the writer may be confusing excommunication with 'denial of Communion'. Excommunication cuts a person off from all the sacraments and bans him/her from active involvement in the liturgy, though the person may attend Mass. It is used very rarely. It was imposed in the 1940s by an American archbishop on three prominent Catholics who very publicly opposed his attempts to racially integrate the Catholic schools in his diocese. Presumably Dani Garavelli would not disapprove of such a censure being used to bring about desegregation. Or would this still be "poison from the pulpit", Dani ? Denial of Communion is another matter. Usually the person being censured is asked not to present him/herself for Communion, because there is a great reluctance to deny Communion at the altar rail because of public scandal. Both censures are attempts at "fraternal correction", rather than efforts simply to punish. The Church considers a person's soul to be in danger and therefore feels compelled to take such strong action.

5

Nevyn,

Glasgow 03/06/2007 01:46:59

So the Catholic Church is oppposed to abortion - and the news story here is what? Maybe next we will have front pages on grass being green or the sky being blue.

6

Guga II,

Rockall 03/06/2007 04:12:36

It doesn't matter which way you look at it, this is a blatant attempt at blackmail by the Catholic church.

Ignoring the fact that Catholicism is a minority religion in Scotland, any religious sect that tries to interfere with the laws of the country by trying to impose their peculiar beliefs, should be stopped.

What right does any religion have to try and force its views on other people? If women want an abortion, that is their business, no one else's. It is, after all, their body. It does not belong to the Catholic church or any other church.

There are many people who do not believe in all this mythology and fairy tales. Why therefore, should they be forced to comply with such ideology? We live in a secular state, and churches should mind their own business.

The Catholic church would do well to attend to their own shortcomings. For example, their protection of paedophile priests; and the fact that they are one of the richest business organisations in the world, yet they do little to help all the poor and starving Catholics in, for example, Catholic countries in South America or the Philippines.

7

Ichabod,

03/06/2007 06:16:05

If you believe in the RC faith you either obey the rules or leave. Don't make money whining about it, decide what you believe and then act on it.
Clearly this writer does not accept what is taught - then leave the RC church and start your own. If you have positive proof you have a better way!
All denominations of Christianity will tell you abortion is murder, if you don't agree, don't pretend you are a believer.

If you don't believe, then what a church leader say is no reason for your complaining, he has the same right to a thoughtful opinion as yourself. I see his opinion is based on thought for others rather than self however.

8

Germany calling!,

Germany 03/06/2007 06:37:54

All the crackpots have come out of the woodwork again I see!

9

Boy Wonder,

03/06/2007 06:50:46

As a former well-indoctrinated Catholic (once an altar boy) who managed to burst free of religious shackles, I've read up on every religion to acquaint myself of how they work, and O'Brien has just re-shown us what they are all like ... authoritarian, inflexible, dominating ... where is the "mercy" and "milk of Human Kindness" their mythical Founder was full of??

It may be a "flawed law", I don't know enough about it ... but I'd rather see a woman in control of what she births, instead of the result of rape or marital force or anything else.

It is the woman's decision ultimately and I can't help but think that any "merciful god" would agree with that. But of course, the heirarchy of every religion tends to be dominated by MEN!

10

FJM,

UK 03/06/2007 06:56:16

Unfortunately, whenever religion (especially if it is Christianity) is discussed on these forums it represents an opportunity for ignorant counter-culture rabid atheists to vent their bile. The problem is, these people cannot tolerate “dissent” from their point of view. Oh the audacity of a (Christian) religious figure to offer a position, pertaining to Church teaching/law and how this may potentially impact (practicing) members of the Church? It is even more outrageous of him to have the temerity to use the public media? Who does he think he is, a citizen of the UK?

The key point lost in the visceral diatribe that constitutes a response to his comments is that Catholic MP’s should consider withholding themselves from Holy Communion within the Church if they publicly subscribe to a pro-abortion position. The (more intelligent) counter-culture atheists will respond by saying, “well this may influence MP’s to hold an unduly pro-life perspective to avoid falling out of favour with their Church, to the detriment of non-Catholic constituents, especially women who want to have an abortion”. This is a gross simplification of the realities of the daily challenges that people with a moral grounding face. Ethics and morality emerges from a philosophical paradigm, it does not drop out of thin air, and people have to deal with these questions on a daily basis – what is “right” and what is “wrong”. The Cardinal was contributing to this discussion from a uniquely Catholic/Christian perspective, advising that practicing Catholics should take into consideration Church teaching in the context of communion, not necessarily actual practice. With regard to actual practice, a separate judgment will eventually be made in the fullness of time.

11

Frank McGeachy,

Calgary, Canada 03/06/2007 07:01:32

I used to be a Catholic – an accident of birth that could not withstand rational personal investigation. Over the years I have learned to regard Christianity as an attempt to control minds, some call it menticide. Every school pupil should be forced to learn about the cynical machinations of third century Christianity that set it on its current dishonest, self-serving course of duplicity and suppression of honest inquiry.
This pathetic cardinal in his attempt to blackmail Catholics to adhere to the current official church policy on the inception of the soul into the body (at the moment of conception?) has expose the irrationality of the Church, just like their inexcusable treatment of Bruno and Galileo. The original Platonic idea of the soul as promoted by the Catholic Church has morphed whimsically over the centuries. Which version of the Church’s tenets of faith should Catholics adhere to?
We could have the same debate over the concept of limbo. Is it the Catholic in thing or is it passé? Which cardinal’s arbitrary mood should faithful Catholics sheepishly follow? The infallible current one or the infallible thirteen the century one, perhaps the next frivolous one that will come to pass a few decades from now?

12

Ralph Kramden,

03/06/2007 07:05:27

Nice to see all the papist faithful rallying around to defend Holy mother church. lets not forget the Scotland, a secular entity, ceased to be a Catholic enclave a long time (almost 500 years ago).

Church and state must always be kept seperate - this is where O'Brien has crossed the line.

To the MP's caught up in the issue - if your are refused 'Holy Communion' then nip across the road and join the Kirk - their numbers are down as well and I feel sure the 'flock' would make you welcome.

The law may be flawed but it is still the law......

13

redandwhitehoops,

03/06/2007 07:33:55

There are many reasons you should not present yourself for Communion, most of which can be rectified immediately, through the sacrament of Reconciliation. If the politicians have voted for abortion in the past, in the same way as someone who has had an abortion in the past, confess this, then they are free to participate in Communion.
The Cardinals message is only of relevance to practicing Catholics. Why should it have any relevance to anyone else. If the politician is a lapsed Catholic, then they'll just ignore it and if they're lapsed, they shouldn't be taking Communion anyway, so what is the problem.

14

Tweedmouth,

03/06/2007 07:43:57

Abortion is a moral issue - as far as the churches are concerned - so they have every right to speak out against an act that they regard as the murder of a unique human soul. For those of us who are not religious, there are other social issues. Apparently 7 million foetuses were destroyed in the UK over the last 30 years. That represents a loss to society not just of 7 million children, but of the children those unborn would in turn have produced. This could bring the number of 'missing' UK citizens closer to 8 or 9 million.

That's nine million people who never paid taxes, never had a useful job, never contributed whatever individual talent they would have been born with. Among them there could have been many Bill Gates's, another Einstein, a Rabby Burns, a Bobby Moore or a Frank Whittle.

That missing nine million is probably the reason why the globalisers are flooding the country with east europeans, Portuguese, Somalis and people of every culture on earth - wrecking the education system and stretching the NHS to breaking point.

The impact of abortion on the mental and emotional welfare of those who go through it can often be traumatic and long lasting. But imagine if you are a doctor or nurse who has to pull unborn children from mother's wombs ten times a week? Would you sleep at night.

Abortion for gross deformities, rape and other health issues is arguably a good thing for society. Abortion as a means of contraception - on a scale of millions - is choosing Death Culture.

15

Garry Otton,

03/06/2007 07:44:37

Ichabod. The choice of just leaving the Catholic Church is not open to the thousands of gay kids forced through their so-called 'faith' schools. Their human rights are trampled on when religionists sought - and got - special exemptions permitting them to teach marriage was superior to a 'homosexual lifestyle'.

We don't live in a secular state at all. (You can just click onto secular.org to see that). Scots newspapers - even this one - is chocablock with Catholic propagandists, mostly recruited from the Daily Mail and always on hand to do the bidding of the Church's Scottish PR dept. (If the recent circus around Madeleine isn't an shameful exploitation by the Catholic PR machine I don't know what is!)

Drowned by the shrill voices of Catholic militants, quite right, Dani. Where ARE are voices of ordinary Catholics for whom their religion is an entirely private and spiritual experience?

16

frank mcbride,

lusitania 03/06/2007 07:56:37

The ethics of procreation are the responibility of all; not exclusive to any particular group.
If the "churches" would take a rational view of the above and treat it as an integral aspect of human development then, I believe, there would be many less abortions.
The Cardinal has every right to express his opinions, either personal or church directed but, he has no right tospeak for the concience of others.

Can I also say that, I believe abortion as a means of contraception is nothing short of murder and should be outlawed. Abortion for genuine medical reasons is another matter but, it should be for GENUINE reasons.

17

Garry Otton,

03/06/2007 08:08:16

No, I've got a better idea, Frank. You know that sex education system that gives our near neighbours in Holland a teenage pregnancy rate some seven times lower than Scotland's? We abort the Catholic militants who have sat on committees to prevent it being rolled out in Scotland and we start it tomorrow in Scottish schools.

18

Garry Otton,

03/06/2007 08:11:11

Woops, sorry. Forgot... The SNP were in talks with the Catholic Church before they came into power and like Labour, they support the compulsory teaching of superstition in schools ('Faith schools') and the LibDems dropped their Liberal bit and are divided on the issue. Sorry, ignore me, that was a non-starter.

19

Ichabod,

03/06/2007 08:12:04

16 Gary
We don't live in a secular state at all


Gary, a quick glance at the TV, radio or the media will show you we live firmly in a liberal secular state that imposes its will with no acceptance of opposition.
That is shown by the anti religious on this thread alone. I can understand some, who have been born and bred RC to reject it (the RC church does not represent Christianity in my view) and the distorted view this leaves them. But the secular state dominates all the media. Rarely is a Christian voice, let alone a RC voice heard.

20

james 1st,

nz- 03/06/2007 08:12:19

it does amuse me a little when i keep seeing all this about the womans right to choose because its their body, men of course as prospective fathers have no entitlement to any opinion. i dont really understand the catholic church, not being catholic though most of my relatives are, but they do seem determined to alienate large sectors of the community. politicians however who happen to be catholic know the church rules and if they choose not to follow them should not present themselves for communion, otherwise surely they are being hypocritical. this would be something new for a politician?

21

frank mcbride,

lusitania 03/06/2007 08:45:26

#18.

Perhaps you could be less intemperate in your language as, imo, it detracts from what you have to say.

22

,

03/06/2007 08:46:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

GJM,

Wales 03/06/2007 09:00:55

Lack of moral fibre when the children suffer at the hands of his brothers.SILENCE

24

james 1st,

nz- 03/06/2007 09:05:49

23

how many fathers do you know who have been able to stop an abortion?

we keep hearing its a womans body its a womans choice

25

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 09:09:02

The Roman Catholic Church has in the past hidden paedophiles working with the church and actively colluded to mislead the police who have investigating allegations against Roman Catholic priests. Yet when it comes to talking about a woman's right to choose, a Roman Catholic Cardinal, forbidden by his own church's rules from even "being" with a woman believes that he has more understanding and can make judgement on politicians who feel that women should have the right to choose.

Religious beliefs are great when they give you a set of values that you can live your own life by, but when it comes to your religion lecturing about how other people are bad and starts wanting laws changed to remove freedoms on people then it is wrong.

In this case, the Roman Catholic Church should get their own house in order, stop the abuse of children, open up their files to the police and set an example before lecturing politicians on removing rights from women.

26

George59,

UK 03/06/2007 09:20:06

Perhaps the author of this article and the commenters - who seem to be all male as I am - should follow the logical and philosophical argument against abortion that the RC has before becoming emotional.
Simply put it is that there is no point in foetal development where the original fertilized egg becomes distinguishably different from its previous existence and therefore worthy of greater protection that the original fertilized egg.
It follows that a foetus, in all stages of development, is worthy of the same protection as a new-born or an adult.
If we are able to justify ending a new-born's life because it is inconvenient - go ahead - abort away.

27

Just Logic,

Feet on the Ground 03/06/2007 09:48:04

Let me ask a simple question.

Who decided murder was wrong?

If there is no ABSOLUTE authority, then its a free

for all.

If a mother is free to take the life of the another

person, then why can't someone decide to kill her?

If someone murdered a pregnant mum, the headline

would not say:


"PREGNANT MUM MURDERED AND HER PREGNANCY TERMINATED"

Of course not. The headline would be,

"PREGNANT MUM AND UNBORN BABY MURDERED"

You can't have it both ways. Murder is murder

It makes absolutely no difference anyway, whether

or not the politician is granted the eucharist or not.

That whole sacramental system is a complete

heresy.

Christ said on the cross "paid in full", ie the debt for

sin, yet this transubstantiation heresy says He was

wrong. Transubstansiation says Christ is re-

sacrificed on a daily basis. Garbage.

transubstantiation n. RC Ch. conversion of the Eucharistic elements wholly into the body and blood of Christ. [medieval Latin: related to *trans-, *substance]

Theres only one way that repentant sinners can

ever attain salvation. its a - b - c

Accept you've broken God's law.

Believe Christ was a sinless substitiute.

Confess Him before men.

visit www.goodperson.co.uk

28

,

03/06/2007 09:52:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

George59,

UK 03/06/2007 09:56:21

28 - there is no chance that you are a Catholic then?

Try to stay on point.

30

wellwood,

ayrshire 03/06/2007 10:01:07

It is time for the Church of Rome to field it's political candidates under that banner. Giving the electorate an opportunity on voting on religeous issues. Having taken over the constituency branches of new labour, they find their dogma at odds with policy. It would be interesting to establish, how many New Labour MPs, MSPs, Councillors, Council Chief Execs. are Roman Catholics.

31

Just Logic,

Feet on the Ground 03/06/2007 10:11:26

30 - The point is, people are paying so much

attention to flag that their boat is flying, that they're

oblivious to the fact the boat is sinking.

32

wayne bijlyeerheid,

03/06/2007 10:26:47

A fortnight ago her article was a gushing apology for religious indoctrination and why she was sending her children to a catholic school.
If perhaps the RC heirarchy was able to differentiate between necessary abortion, mother's life in danger, rape victim etc., and abortion as a means of birth control then maybe the debate would move on.
As their opposition to contraception is engraved in stone they are unable to direct women to alternative methods of restricting their families.
From this arises the crazy situation that the UK is dotted with abortion clinics making money hand over fist out of women from RC countries, where culture and laws prohibit birth control, coming here to terminate pregnancies.

33

Southern Cross,

UK 03/06/2007 10:29:26

wellwood (31): "It is time for the Church of Rome to field it's political candidates under that banner."

And they should rightfully loose their charitable status if they persist with this blatant political lobbying.

34

George59,

UK 03/06/2007 10:36:08

32 -

The point is that the Cardinal is using his position as a Catholic teacher to remind all Catholics that the Catholic Church - not a democratic an organisation - has a position to which they, as Catholics, must be true.

If Catholics aspire to public office and support popular positions that are considered immoral by the Church they should not put the Church in an untenable position regarding the relationship they have. (the RC and the person in a public office). They should have the guts to stand up and be counted if their beliefs have some foundation.

It is true that the Cardinal has no authority over non-Catholics but then he was not addressing any non-Catholics.

If DANI GARAVELLI feels that his/her position within the Church is the right one I suggest that further study of Church law is in order.
Cultural relativism blurs boundaries. Truth is truth - it does not depend on which way the winds are blowing on that day.

35

George59,

UK 03/06/2007 10:44:02

34 -
"And they should rightfully loose their charitable status if they persist with this blatant political lobbying."....sound like some good old religious hatred brewing up here. If you are not a Catholic what the Cardinal has NO relevance to you or should not. The man was saying what he believes to be right and true.

36

Dr Pete,

03/06/2007 10:58:25

So you are denied a wafer and a sip of wine! Big deal – go to the supermarket and treat yourself to a whole loaf and a whole bottle of plonk. Communion - superstitious clap-trap! (My view – not specifically meant to offend – but get over it if you are!).

In the meantime – let’s not get too irate over blobs-of-jelly! Yes – the foetus is hardly more than that for many, many weeks. Every time you put something in your mouth – cells are lost into your intestine. When food enters the intestine it scours even more cells from the lining of your gut! Drink too much alcohol and it kills cells in your body.

Every cell has all the DNA that makes you – you! So what’s the problem here?

If a woman or a family (for whatever reason) – need or want an abortion; so be it. The only debate I think we should be having is whether 24 weeks is appropriate or not. Given that a small percentage of babies can survive being born/terminated at that age – then we need to question whether a slightly lower time limit is needed. This is a real moral issue which actually needs to be debated. The abortion debate is finished. Abortion is appropriate and morally correct (my view and that of most others in the country) – it is here to stay. The media need to start ignoring Cardinals who can’t keep up with the times!

To turn that debate into something that “god” has a big interest in is tosh. Where the hell is god in ensuring that things don’t ever get to the point where a termination is needed?

Answer- there is no god. So we need a more mature debate around this issue.

Shame on you Cardinal – silly man! Another example of why religion and the church are totally irrelevant to modern life. No wonder churches are emptying at a rapid rate.

When will the politicians have the guts to disestablish the church from the state in a constitutionally irreversible way?

37

davieboy144,

03/06/2007 11:00:05

36

Im not sure if i've picked you up right here. If you're saying that if im not a Catholic then I should take no interest in, or ignore what Cardinal O'Brien is say then you are wrong.

If he, or any other person is trying to influence or bully politicians into making decisiond or creating laws that affect me then I, and anyone else, are perfectly entitled to state our case as well.

38

wayne bijlyeerheid,

03/06/2007 11:03:35

#36
If he is addressing elected representatives and claiming his organisation's views have greater authority over them than the constituency represented, even if the majority of the constituency is not catholic then we have a right to disagree. And say so.
If, as you say, it is true that, >"If you are not a Catholic what the Cardinal has NO relevance to you or should not"< sic.,(I assume the word "said" is missing) , then we have a right to know if we are voting for a person for whom this DOES have relevance.
Do you understand that?
If I vote for a Muslim I don't want him/her telling me, after the election, that they intend to impose Sharia and it's nothing to do with me as it's on orders from Tehran or wherever.

39

jimh,

03/06/2007 11:11:58

Is this the same church that is against the use of condoms to prevent the spead of HIV in Africa?
The Catholic hierarchy are totally out of step with the vast majority of practising Catholics.

40

Mcsnagpile,

S.E.A 03/06/2007 11:27:51

The Catholic Church like all religions has rules that members have to adhere with. I believe in the right to abortion, I would be extremely unhappy if a child of mine in or out of marriage would be aborted. I do not use contraceptives but defend the right for every body to use them as they wish. I believe in euthanasia and believe I should have the right to initiate this choice if required. Unfortunately the British parliament imposes their views on the likes of me. I therefore do not consider British Parliament to be any better than the Catholic Church when it comes to inflicting moralistic ideas on people.

41

ColinEdin,

03/06/2007 11:30:24

Cardinal O'Brien is a vile man. Throughout all history the church has attempted to control women and it still goes on. Firstly, I never realised someone in a funny hat had control over God and how individuals receive Him. Secondly, someone can be pro-choice and anti abortion at the same time, it involves allowing others to do with their body as they please. If you think abortion is wrong, heres an idea, don't have one.

Don't foist your archaic notions upon the rest of us. Time and again, the church doesn't seek to preach morality, it seeks to enforce it. We have seen this with euthanasia (which isn't even as bad as abortion), we are seeing this with abortion and we have seen it with drug and alcohol control. The church thinks it is on a moral high horse, the moral high horse lies in the pro-choice position. It was Thomas Jefferson who said the so blatantly true phrase:

"Throughout all ages and all nations, it has been the priest who has been most opposed to liberty."

42

GordonHide,

Ruislip, Middx 03/06/2007 11:36:59

To get a good indication of who might be right here you only have to imagine what society would be like if all power were vested in the Catholic church.

43

George59,

UK 03/06/2007 11:56:13

38. davieboy144 - of course you are perfectly entitled to "influence or bully" anyone you like but don't expect that your view should not be challenged so why should the position of the Catholic Church be of any interest to you if you are not a Catholic unless you want to "influence or bully" yourself.
Perhaps it is non-Catholics intruding into a Catholic discussion on one of the sacraments of the Catholic Church that is the problem. After all the reception of Holy Communion is barred to non-Catholics.
What the Cardinal said was said in a Catholic Mass, to a Catholic audience and pertaining to a an issue of particular importance to the Catholic Church.
Any politician should have a moral framework from which to legislate. This should be clear prior to his election. It is up to you to decide if that person and his moral framework is acceptable prior to your vote being registered

39. wayne bijlyeerheid - you are right re the missing word "said".
Do I detect a whiff of anti-Popery disdain in your reference to Tehran vis-a-vis Rome?..........-Do you understand that?-
I would have thought that the Cardinal is making his position and the position of the Catholic Church crystal clear to enable YOU to have an informed position. As regards the Muslim position that is something that should be discussed prior to gaining your vote as should the abortion issue.

44

ColinEdin,

03/06/2007 12:00:09

#43 GordonHide

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. No thank you.

45

,

03/06/2007 12:01:51
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46

,

03/06/2007 12:01:55
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47

ColinEdin,

03/06/2007 12:04:01

#44 George59

Yes they should have a moral framework, however, a Catholic moral framework is one many would not like their politicians to have if this is what it brings us.

The Catholic church has been dwindling in Europe for centuries now, it is only clear that we are going to see a small outburst of defiance before this institution, that has caused so many ills in the history of Europe, finally dies.

48

ColinEdin,

03/06/2007 12:06:20

#47 Tescotown

Stop trying to hide behind the blanket that this does not affect non-Catholics.

That is what the main problem with Cardinal O'Brian's statement is. It affects us all. If abortion were to be banned because of an influence by the Catholic behemoth then it would affect every one of us. It also affects every one of us in the sense that since we happen to live in constituencies that have Catholic MSP's, all the other religions and belief systems of the constituency these MSP's are meant to represent will be trampled upon.

49

,

03/06/2007 12:07:05
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50

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 12:10:21

Colin Edinburgh

I do believe you are mixing me up with George? I agree with what you are saying 100%

51

wayne bijlyeerheid,

03/06/2007 12:10:26

#44
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
I see you are falling back on the anti-Popery accusation despite my effort not to use any of that imagery.
I will repeat, yes the cardinal has a right to say what he says, yes adherents to catholocism have the right to practise what he preaches, but, as you admit, once again, it doesn't have any relevance to me or the other 83% of Scots who are not RC.
And to repeat again, I have the right to know whether the person representing me, in parliament or council, is going to do so as a politician on the political program that they have presented or whether they are going into parliament as an RC, subject to pressures that "have no relevance" to non catholics.
If you can answer, answer, if you can't, don't stoop to slander.

52

davieboy144,

03/06/2007 12:10:49

#44

George,

In all sincerity you are missing the point. Cardinal O'Brien IS trying to influence (and some would say bully) politicians into making laws that affect not only Catholics but the rest of society and in that respect we all have a right to tell Cardinal O'Brien that we think he is wrong.

From what you are saying if Brian Souter tells the Scottish Executive, that we should build bigger roads for his buses, we should all butt out if we don't own a bus?

53

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 03/06/2007 12:16:59

This Cardinal O'Brien appears to be a loose cannon as Prince of the Church and he has made other ridiculous statements in the past. It seems that most Catholics ignore him as a power-mad prelate who thinks he can control politicians and most everybody else - Catholic or not - at will.

Is Pope Benedict XVI aware of some of the more outrageous pronouncements of this blowhard priest and is ANYTHING being done to try and shut him up and stop making a fool of himself by these intransigent and hyper-radical blatherings?

Fervent and practising ( a large minority) Catholics will excoriate me for my post but I find that every time I read about his latest pronunciamentos I am aghast that he is in such a place of influence and that he expects Catholics - and non-Catholics - to accept these "sayings" without scepticism and outright incredulity.

54

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 12:17:17

George wrote

why should the position of the Catholic Church be of any interest to you if you are not a Catholic unless you want to "influence or bully" yourself.


George you really don't get it, do you?

This will not just be about RC's, this would affect the entire nation. So if the Catholic church has the power to change the law, just because it doesn't particularly like something, then I have everuy right to oppose them.

Would the RC church consider asking for an ever older law to be changed?

The 1918 education act, which segregates little children? After all it says the abortion law is antiquated after 40 years........

No I didn't think so?

55

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 12:25:19

Can anyone give me one good explanation why I should listen to people like this????

Sunday Mail 18 December 2005

SILENCE AND SECRETS

This priest was convicted of the terrible abuse of young girls. Today, a damning dossier reveals bishops knew of 18 others accused of sex crimes but did not tell police about any of them

By Marion Scott

THE leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland failed to alert police after 19 priests were accused of being paedophiles .

A damning document obtained by the Sunday Mail reveals how bishops in Scotland's eight dioceses did not call in detectives to probe sex abuse against the priests.

Most were allowed to continue in their posts or relocated to other parishes.

The bombshell report reveals 19 Scottish priests were accused of abuse between 1985 and 1995.

Only one was convicted after police were alerted by his bishop. Victims complained to police about nine of the other 18 but the church failed to inform the authorities about any.

The dossier reveals how:

#A priest attacked two women with learning difficulties but was never charged. He retired after his bishop found him a lawyer and a psychiatrist.

#One priest who confessed to a series of sex attacks was sent for therapy at a church home in Gloucestershire.

#Another, who police believed had molested a teenage boy, was allowed to return to work after three months.

#A priest accused of attacking a boy moved to a new parish despite his Scots bishop wanting him defrocked.

#Another was allowed to stay in post despite stalking a teenage boy.

Helen Holland of campaign group In Care Abuse Survivors, said: "Our fears are the Catholic Church in Scotland is continuing quietly to sweep abuses under the carpet.

Protection "It is clear that they must now be dragged kicking and screaming into openess."

The dossier was compiled in 1995 as the church was forced to review ho

56

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 12:39:29

Continued......

The report says Bishop Joe Devine detailed how the church in Motherwell tried unsuccessfully to defrock a priest who attacked an eight-year-old boy.

The Bishop wrote: "That the Holy See (Vatican) failed to grant this petition was a matter of bafflement to me" In another complaint, a young girl said another priest had touched her inappropriately.

But Bishop Devine wrote: "I have relatives in that parish, all of whom see him as an excellent parish priest."

In the St Andrew's and Edinburgh diocese, Scotland's most powerful churchman, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, said two priests accused of abusing boys were removed for "treatment".

Several priests were sent to a "rehabilitation" centre at Our Lady of Victory, in Gloucestershire.

One returned to administration duties in the diocese on the condition that he was not left alone with children.

The late Cardinal Thomas Winning, then Bishop of Glasgow , admitted a priest had stalked a 16-year-old boy and they also removed a priest accused of assaulting a teenage girl and advised her to contact police.
The Bishop of Dunkeld, Vincent Logan , said police probed claims against a priest made by a boy of 13.

The Bishop was told "informally" by the Deputy Chief Constable that police believed the boy but there was no prosecution Only one of the 19 accused priests was convicted. Canon Joseph Terry, priest for Ballachulish and Kinlochleven, was jailed for six years in 1998 for indecency against girls aged seven to 16 between 1963 and 1971.

Last night, SNP MSP Linda Fabiani, called for a public inquiry.
"The Scottish Executive must agree to find out how widespread this problem has been so we can begin to repair the damage of the past," she said.

Peter Reid, of campaign group Men Against Sexual Abuse, said: "These shocking documents prove that the Catholic Church in Scotland have been coveri

57

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 12:41:07

Finally......

PAISLEY: 1 BISHOP John Mone told of two allegations involving the same priest.

Police were called in by one victim's family but the Procurator Fiscal decided not to prosecute.

DUNKELD: 2 POLICE were called by the family of a boy who said he had been molested by a priest.

Prosecuters took no action but a senior police officer told Bishop Vincent Logan the offence had probably taken place.

The priest was given three months' leave then allowed to return. No action was taken after another allegation was made against a dead priest.

ABERDEEN: 2 THE Archbishop Mario Conti admitted he took "no further action" against a priest who denied a girl's abuse claim.

In another case which he appeared to accept was true, a report was made to "the appropriate authorities" and no further action taken.

ARGYLL & ISLES: 1 THE late Bishop Roddy Wright reported an allegation was made against a former alcoholic priest who "claimed not to remember".

The case refers to Canon Joseph Terry, the former parish priest for Ballachulish and Kinlochleven who was jailed for six years in 1998 for indecency against girls aged seven to 16 between 1963 and 1971

MOTHERWELL: 2 BISHOP Joe Devine reported his surprisethat no action had been taken after details of one priest with a "sexual deviancy" were sent to the Vatican.

58

pehman,

sussex 03/06/2007 12:56:22

Scotland as a nation, every man woman and child was pronounced excomunicate in the thirteenth century. I am unsure if or when this was lifted, but back then the church was backing Edward of Englands take over of Scotland.

This political blackmail by the church has been used before, IT FAILED THEN IT WILL FAIL AGAIN.

59

Pete,

Paisley 03/06/2007 13:22:52

eric # 46

You should be happy too, then Eric.

60

Ralph Kramden,

03/06/2007 13:25:57

Any threat aimded at political freedom, the freedom of choice, from any religous leader of any religous faith should not be tolerated in a civilised society.

Worship your gods and statues, sacrafice sheep - I really dont care what you believe - you are entitled to your beliefs.

However the idea of a spokesman for the Bishop of Rome telling politicians how to vote on any issue is an idea that should not be tolerated.

Are we on the verge of the Catholic version of 'Sharia' law - another inquisition anyone?

61

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 13:46:21

With the past and present history of child abuse in the Catholic church, you would think the heirarchy would attempt to get their own house in order, before talking about children?

Everyone has strong and legitimate views on abortion, regardless of religion or nationality. However we cannot let minority religious leaders impose their will on the rest of society, just because they hold Catholic MP's and MSP's to ransom.

However the selection process and demographics of the politicians must be looked into also. For 16% of the Scottish population to have so many politicians, when it's quite obvious they will and cannot be fair to the rest of us.

If we elected MP's who listened to the Ayatollah of Iran and took his guidance from a foreign body, the country would be up in arms. Yet we have Scots, who think the majority of us, who are non RC, should follow Rome's rule....

I would strongly suggest to the Scottish population, people like Michael McMahon, Labour MP for Belshill, should be voted out immediately and without fail.

This man has ridden roughshod over his constituents with his backing for Cardinal O'brien, and he obviously listens to him, rather than the voters who elected him in the first place.

We will remember these MP's who betray Scotland?

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-f...

62

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 03/06/2007 13:53:32

Abortion, is it right or wrong. On this issue one can only state their personal views. The role of any church in peoples lives are becoming more of an arguement everyday, again on personal thoughts of the person making their point.
This thread is about a writers personal thoughts on a stance of a Catholic Cardinal. Because he didn't like it, he took his vemon out in a public paper.
As a Presbyterian, I have many times thought about abortion. Yes, there are times that the doctors will only be able to save the baby or the mother. I thank God that I was never in that situation.
Having an abortion just because the woman DECIDES that she doesn't want the baby is pure murder. Also this partial birth is something right from Dr. Mengale (?) research in my opinon.
There are many anit-church comments here but so called enlightened and tolorant persons. You are showing how untolerant you actually are and are walking around with a chip on your shoulder.
Let us stop and think a bit. There is a big differance between church and religion. The Roman Catholic Church came about when the emporer of Rome said so for political reasons (I can never remember his name). At that point the original Christian church ceased. Man has changed the church doctorine to suit their neeeds. They being for political, power, or just to satisfy the current fad.
I would say that most if not all churches of other religions have done and are doing the same thing.
If you don't believe in the beliefs of your church then change. It is not for man to change the church. I am far from being an expert of religion but I would say that one would find that their religion is for your soul and how you conduct yourself as a human will decide the end fate of your soul.
I believe that it is up to me as a Christian to change my bad ways to the teachings of Jesues Christ. To follow his teachings and to obey the laws of God. The church I attend

63

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 14:11:42

Well, this bloke Keith O'Brien, the Roman Catholic Church's CEO in Scotland. He also goes by the designation of Cardinal (which is an old word that translates loosely in modern English into CEO). Anyway, CEO O'Brien gave a sermon (that's a speech in modern English) the other day to his flog of supporters in Edinburgh. Having recently lost an important policy battle in the country (his organisation may not discriminate against gay people - pretty shocking to our dress wearing celibate), O'Brien turned his theological gaze toward another one of his company's favourite topics, abortion. He compared the number of abortions taking place on a daily basis in Scotland to the Dunblane massacre. In Dunblane, sixteen kids and a teacher were shot by a lone gunman. Obviously to the man who likes to wear red dresses in public there is no significant moral difference between abortion and the murder of children, teenagers and adults. All the same to him.
I have no intention to get into the pro's and con's of abortion again .I don't mind O'Brien rambling on like this. The more hysterical, and, frankly, silly, his public utterances become, the greater the irrelevance of the organisation he runs in Scotland is likely to become. And that, probably, is a good thing. The less people listen to 'moral' pronouncements, and the kind of bullying and hectoring that emanates from characters like Mr O'Brien the better for our societies.

64

JG,

Fife 03/06/2007 14:19:08

#63 Aoda
You are right, this matter is a person's personal opinion. I have mine, you have yours and the cardinal has his. The Catholic church is essentially an organisation run by men. There are no women involved at all in the important issues of the day (still, we come in handy for making tea and scones at the church fete!) and there can be no more important an issue than having a baby. Such an event should be a joyous occasion where the potential mum and dad look forward to junior's arrival excitedly. Unfortunately it is not always so and sometimes a woman will decide (for whatever reason) not to go ahead. It won't be an easy choice nor will it be entered into lightly - how dare this man try to exacerbate things! No-one is suggesting that people be forced in to HAVING an abortion - only that a person should have the choice. If you don't agree with it DON'T HAVE ONE!

65

JG,

Fife 03/06/2007 14:41:41

#68
:-)

66

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 03/06/2007 15:03:02

#67 JG,
Thank you for your compliments and may I express mine to your answer. There is one comment I made that you may have not understood and one of yours that went over my head.

In no way was I saying that a woman should be forced to have an abortion. What I said, maybe not clear enough, is that to me partial abortion has to be a result of the twisted minds and research (if you want to call it that) of the procedure. At the end you said if you ahhhhhhhh never mind it finally sunk into my thick skull. Yes, that is true. I would also like to add if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, then the proper steps is to take precautions so as not to get pregnant, there are many methods. Just to simply change your mind about having a baby after getting pregnant is wrong.

67

ColinEdin,

03/06/2007 15:33:20

#51 Tescotown

Oh yes, I'm sorry. I meant george! :)

68

JG,

Fife 03/06/2007 15:33:50

#70 Aoda
Yes - I did miss the "partial abortion" bit (I take it you mean removing a foetus for experimental reasons and stem cell etc.?) - perhaps a different issue?

You're right though, there are many ways to avoid becoming pregnant (I believe on previous occasions the cardinal has reccommended abstention - very effective, right enough, but not very likely!) and also many accidents (I know one girl who was on the pill, her boyfriend used a condom and she still got pregnant - she was on antibiotics and the condom burst - how unlucky is THAT??). I'd like it very much if the man in these situations took responsibility but they often don't (well, they aren't literally left "holding the baby") - this fires the onus straight back on to the woman, who I believe should have the choice in what to do. This man-in-a-dress with no real life experience has no right to foist his ideals on to other people.

69

Dr Pete,

03/06/2007 15:40:33

Dear Aoda

abortion may be wrong to you and for you. So please don't ever have one – and if you need someone to back you up; I will be right behind you. (Just like any decent liberal, modern humanist would be).

But for other's, an abortion is a critically important, even a life saving procedure (even if it is for their psychological well-being). So please be prepared to accept with grace that the needs of others may not accord with your own limited perspective and limited view of the world. (Your perspective is as limited as that of any other single individual’s perspective – including the Cardinal).

I must confess to disagree very strongly with your statement - “Having an abortion just because the woman DECIDES that she doesn't want the baby is pure murder.” – on the grounds that is again your limited perspective on a complex and highly emotive topic. It also highlights the fact that religion, as a “lens” for looking at the world, is a very dangerous one unless it is tempered with humanity and a more dignified attitude towards people and their problems.

Since monotheistic religion is ostensibly a Neolithic superstition which has evolved into a parasitic frame of reference (which lacks an evidential basis) – it is no wonder it is increasingly in conflict with more enlightened perspectives on how modern humans should conduct themselves. (Yes this is my limited perspective – but at least there is evidence out there to support what I contend).

Incidentally – the notion that one should not change the church is also a nonsense! Religion has evolved over the centuries and continues to do so as “reason” is forcing it to modify. We no longer have witch-burnings and crusades or the selling of indulgences or the murder of adulterers (at least not in the West). Of course – we now consider these to be crimes against humanity. So churches really should change and move with the times. If they don’t – they end up in conflict with secular-powers whic

70

Katie Chops,

Sidcup 03/06/2007 15:58:22

I believe that the Cardinal wishes/demands Scottish MSPs who are Catholics should put the dogma of the Catholic church before the concerns of their constituents

How do you think he would react if those who believe democracy comes first demand to know if a prospective MSP was a Catholic and not vote for him/her to ensure that church has as little sway in the democratic process as possible?

71

One-man-bucket's older twin,

03/06/2007 17:00:17

I'm a heathen. I remember being told by a Catholic that abortion was the only form of contraception she could use, because if you had an abortion and confessed, you got absolution, but if you used contraception you were in a constant state of sin and couldn't be absolved till you stopped.

There might therefore be fewer abortions, at least among Catholics, if the church permitted contraception.

72

Genevieve,

US 03/06/2007 17:14:37

Leave!! Leave the Church and go find one that suits your immorality!!!

73

JG,

Fife 03/06/2007 17:29:21

#76 Genevieve
It must be nice to be so brainwashed and accept that what a bunch of guys steeped in the past telling you what to do is right. I may be immoral but I'm not stupid.

74

Ocean11,

Who is this journalist? 03/06/2007 17:41:13

Its been quite a while since I've read an article like this. An amateur appeal for justification of some very suspect logic which pivots on the fact he was born into the Catholic faith.Cerebral...

Another utterly self-defeating piece of journalism from a paper that wants to be a tabloid.

75

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 18:41:40

no74

If that's what's required from the Scottish electorate, then so be it? I will have no hesitation in asking any future candidate his/her religion, if politicians start to put the RC church before the voters.

It's very simple, but rather sad in a way, that Scotland has come to the point, where you will vote for people based on a religion. If any future MP tells me, or I find out he/she ranks their church before me, then I will not vote for a Catholic candidate.

However if I know the MP does not accept bullying and being held to ransom, then I don't really care what religion they are.

However as I said in an earlier post, please ensure people like Michael McMahon does not get the chance to make a full of the good people of Bellshill, it's very simple

VOTE THE BUGGER OUT.....

76

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 03/06/2007 18:55:28

We do not go to church and have friends from all walks of life and religions.

Many see the churches as seriously frightening places.
Here in Canada we had the horrors of residential schools and many paedophiles hiding behind the cloth.

Many of our worst offenders were never prosecuted, but guess what, they were not even fired. They were simply shifted over from Canada's east to westcoast.

Law suits abound, churches and governments are desperately trying to settle with thousands of the victims.

Yet still church leaders, and in this case the RC leader want to dictate the way we should live our lives.

Please, just leave us alone. Education and mass communication has thwarted your sphere of influence,eroded your power base and quite rightly deemed you irrelevant.


Pity the poor woman, or young girl that would look to people such as these for compassion.

All the best.

77

Tescotown,

Linwood 03/06/2007 19:18:51

Guess who spouted this rascist nonsense????


(Daily Record, 3 October 2006) CARDINAL Keith O'Brien has said that Muslims should apologise for the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks.

Heclaimed that people in this country should not have to "live in fear of attack" from Muslims.

The leading Catholic said: "There have been no apologies for the shooting of a nun in Somalia, let alone for 9/11 or the London bombings.

"I would like to see some reciprocal moves from the Islamic side. We shouldn't have to live in fear of attacks from Muslims."

But his remarks have sparked outrage.

Ashraf Anjum, president of the Glasgow Mosque, said the cardinal was wrong to blame the entire Muslim faith for acts by extremists.

He said: "These remarks have caused a great deal of concern among Muslims here in Scotland.

"When the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks happened every Muslim in the world condemned them, except for a few odd people here and there.

"If somebody has committed a crime you punish him according to the law.

"But you don't say that the whole nation or the whole religious group is liable for this.

"We accept that if someone has behaved irresponsibly they must face the consequences of their action.

"The people responsible should be punished.

"But why should the rest of the law-abiding citizens in this country apologise for something that they have not done?"

And he added: "When there were bombings in Ireland and Catholics and Protestants were killing each other, did any cardinal or Pope say sorry for that?"

Osama Saeed, of the Muslim Association of Britain, said the cardinal's claims showed "twisted logic".

He said: "The Pope had to apologise for his own comments. I'm not sure who would apologise for the bombers to the cardinal.

"The Pope, though, still hasn't actually apologised for his bel

78

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 03/06/2007 19:51:02

#72 JF
No, I wasn't referring to abortion for research at all. What I said was to me having an abortion using partical birth is murder. Nobody will ever be able to change my mind. To induce labor to a woman so the "doctor? who then sucks the baby's brain out is has to be right out of the Nazi concentration camps. That baby can feel the pain. I can not find the words on how revolting this method is and for the purpose. Also if you read my first comment I separated church and religion. As for the accident I would say that the condom probably wasn't put on right. Also my stepfather taught me a few things and sometimes he spoke plain English. Lesson in sex, If you make a girl pregnant then the child is my responsibility. In others if you take the train ride be prepared to pay the ticket.

Dear Dr. Pete,
My limited perspective! We are limited by what we know and understand but I don't need you to talk down to me but other wish your lecture was well written. If your read my first comment you would know I was saying abortion is wrong just because the woman decided that she didn't want the child. I also said that sometimes the doctor will have the choice of either saving the baby or mother and was glad that I was never put in that position. In those days when the woman couldn't talk for herself they would ask the husband. I didn't deride abortion for medical reasons. The only thing I see complex about it is that some will, shall we say rationalize what they know is wrong to make it right.

As for your lecture on religion, let me say that to me religion is my life. It is food for my soul. As for your description of religion at my age I have witness the change since the "enlightened" generation became popular. For all the junk in television, I haven't watched it in ten years except for certain instances. The movis are pure pronographic. The language we hear as normal speech today is garbage. I could go on but

79

Burnside,

Down the way 03/06/2007 20:35:02

People are so confused. The law is on there in order to enable freedom. This freedom should be available to all people, including vulnerable foetuses. A human foetus is always human from conception, as the foetus will never become a hippo or a rhino or a squirrel.
What the cardinal has done is merely expressed his views, as we are all doing here, but because he is an important figure in the Catholic Church, he comes under much scrutiny.
As for those who say it is not his business, in his view, God and his creation is everywhere and so he must concern himself with many matters which may seem outwith the boundaries of religion.
I am also surprised that there has been no mention of adoption. There are plenty of couples who wish to adopt, so why not give birth to the baby and put it up for adoption, instead of aborting it?
I am aware that many people say that women have the right to choose, but what is not being mentioned is what they are choosing, i.e. whether the life of another person should continue. Does a mother, a few weeks, months or even years kill their child when they do not want it?
On another note, I do agree that the Cardinal has used emotional blackmail both in reference to the Dunblane massacre and in advising that politicians abstain from receiving Holy Communion. I do agree that they should abstain, but he should not have used this point in his sermon.

80

Dr Pete,

03/06/2007 20:36:42

Dear Aoda
I do not think it productive to enter into a discourse on who is talking down to whom. I accept your impression of my narrative and – we move on.
I don’t envy you - that religion is your life! As you clearly detected – I am bewildered as to why anyone today would want to forgo their right and indeed duty to think for themselves. I don’t mean to suggest that you are not capable of thinking for yourself of course – but many religious people abrogate this responsibility and accept uncritically every word from an old book (whose context when composed would have been very different) or from religious extremists (like the Cardinal) who generally profit from maintaining their positions of authority, influence or power. Given access to almost unlimited information, perspectives, travel and intellectual stimulation today – why anybody takes religion or the church seriously is truly beyond my comprehension (and I concede this is my own personal cognitive limitation!).
I don’t entirely agree with your analysis on the content or quality of television either. I personally have a great respect for many documentary and film makers – I mention Sir David Attenborough as an outstanding front man to an outstanding genre of television as a case in point. When I get tired by some inane or offensive program I just change the channel or turn the TV off! So, once again I regret that you have taken an extreme position on television as well as abortion – somehow I don’t feel we have a great deal in common by way of how we deal with “other” and “difference”.
And I think therein lies the difference – a modern perspective judges the world from a less “certain” position. Things are generally not good or bad, right or wrong, moral or immoral – today I think things are viewed as being personally suitable (in which case you embrace whatever it is), or not consonant with your own tastes (in which case you politely decline and leave it at that). This is what drives re

81

Dr Pete,

03/06/2007 20:39:37

continues....

evolve and learn to be less malevolent if it is to survive in the west! But in fact people have always done bad things (non-believers like Stalin and possibly Hitler are amongst the crowd). Doing bad things is a matter of human nature and is not an intrinsic characteristic of religion per se. Nevertheless, the moment people are excused from thinking for themselves (as in communist Russia, fascist Germany or religious places [look at the middle east, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. etc]) that’s when all hell (excuse the pun) breaks loose!
So do I hate religion – no!
Do I hate religious people – no!
Am I bewildered by it all – yes!
So your comment “In telling me what you think of religion was done in a nice and decent way but I could see bigotry and possibly hate for religion, at least a great disrespect and dislike for churches.” – was correct – but I hope you can see why now.
If the Cardinal wants to make life difficult for his congregation and they subscribe to his medicine – I can accept that. Nevertheless, he should really keep away from public grandstanding. The good old days of deference to the clergy have long gone and the “climate” for religion will only deteriorate if they keep thrusting their outdated and unpleasant morals on the rest of us!

82

Burnside,

Down the way 03/06/2007 20:49:58

I notice no one has commented against number 11. Well done on a well constructed point.

83

Catharine,

Winnipeg, Canada 03/06/2007 21:08:23

Bacteria is a life form. Viruses are life forms. We wipe them out where we can without thought. The human embryo is also a life form, but to call the discarding of this unviable multi-celled organism murder? I hate to tell you this, guys, but women flush them down the loo quite naturally more times than you'd be comfortable with. Yes, abortion is the woman's choice and so it should remain, whatever the reason for that choice. It is not anyone else's business because it is her body, plain and simple.

84

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 03/06/2007 21:26:18

Dear Dr. Pete,
I appreciate your last comments. Very thoughtful and presented in such a way that you stated your thoughts and beliefs and why. True we don't agree in the issue but you are the kind of person that I would raise a glass or two anytime in friendship.

What I liked most is the lack of foul language and writing with respect to the person you are writing to. I hope I have done the same to you.

Sorry about tv but where I live, we don't have cable and too many trees to get satellite but for your information if we could I would watch Discovery, National Geographic and The History Channel plus a good movie once in a while. The other channels to me only offer junk, so I don't watch them.

I agree with you about free thinking and when they see wrong to admit it. Sure I would like to think that all churches are pure but they are not. I also believe they aren't because humans for what ever reason used true religion for their own ends.

To me if one would live by the New Testament life would be much better. As for religion evolving I would say if humans would practice the teachings of Jesues Christ, this would be a much better world.

My apology to you. I detected bigotory or disbelief and disrespect. After reading your last comment I detected wrong. Bewildered to me is not bigot or disrespect. That I can understand.
A very good debate. Let us part as friends and maybe have another debate on some other issue. In the mean time, let us all work for a better world and next time you raise one, raise one for me and I will do the same for you.

85

JG,

Fife 03/06/2007 21:35:17

#82 Aoda
I looked up what "partical birth" involved (I'm not sure it's a common expression on this side of the ocean) and I understand what you're on about now! You are quite entitled to feel repulsed by this - it's your choice - and many other medical procedures would probably have you reach for the sick bag too. No-one is anti someone having an informed opinion about ANYTHING - it's just this unelected cardinal who has nothing to do with me trying to influence how other people think with a view to stopping other people making choices for themselves. He will never personally be affected by abortion and I am intelligent enough to form my own opinion - I don't need HIM deciding for me.

86

hairy betty,

03/06/2007 23:05:08

In an ideal world, there would be no abortion. But in an ideal world there would be no murder, rape, hate, war, povety, disease, corruption, but thats in an ideal world. Back to reality and this aint utopia and abortion, as unsavoury as it is, is neccessary for some women at some points in their lives. You can forget all of your voodoo, shaking and rattling of beads, brandishing of books and smoke and mirrors, cos quite frankly its outdated, outmoded and outrageous. Holy willies?, if a few of them had been kept in their troosers in the first place there might be a good few less abortions taking place.

87

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 04/06/2007 00:18:03

89 JF, that is what we call it on this side of the pond. As far as some medical procedures making some sick that is all too true. Having been in the emergency service 36 years I have seen and experienced lots of things that would make anyone sick.

88

The Wizard,

OZ 04/06/2007 01:27:10

Religion of any sort is a crutch that some people require. I have no objection to anyone being religious, If they want to go through life being dominated by superstition then that is their choice. I just object to the one's who insist that they are correct and everyone else wrong.
I absolutely abhor religious 'door knockers'
In the past few years they have been turning up accompanied by small children. The reasoning behind this is they assume people will not tell them in very explicit terms what to do with their narrow minded views.
I read somewhere of a good response by one householder.
After telling them half a dozen times 'I don't believe' and being ignored as they continued to spout their nonsense, one of them asked 'what do you believe in?
'F------ violence' said the exasperated householder.
They left.

89

Oliver F,

UK 04/06/2007 02:24:51

The cardinal would have a better case if the Roman Catholic church wasnt currently condemning millions to die of HIV and AIDS in africa due to its stance on contraception. Additionally the cardinal would have more moral authority if the church hadnt tried to protect paedophile priests at the expense of the victims.

Abortion is a hugely complex issue. The cardinal is entitled to his views but expressing them this way only gives rise, in my opinion at least, to the charge of emotional blackmail. If the church is going to get more involved in politics then I think all politicians should have to declare their religious affiliations just as they have to declare things in the Register Of Members Interests at the House of Commons.

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Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

04/06/2007 08:29:55

#11 as one of the "rabid atheists to vent their bile", you are perhaps being equally rabid and venting your bile. Interestingly most athiests I know do not actually refer to Catholics in such a charming way but do have rather strong views on the influence of all religions, or rather their leaders.

I for one welcome the Cardinal's comments, although I disagree with the blackmail aspect of it. Abortion is too easy, and perhaps there needs to be some mechanisms put in place to reduce the sheer volume. However it should still remain available.

As for the Cardinal, he is saying or doing nothing new. It's just that this time he has said it in public. I would rather tyrants like him said what they stood for in public, atleast that way the followers can decide if they still want to follow. The sooner people wake up to the rubbish which most religious leaders spout the better!

96

JackJ,

London 04/06/2007 08:31:54

Does anyone seriously think that Cardinal O Brien will be in any way distressed about the backlash, from Dani Garavelli or anyone else?

He spoke in the manner he did to grab headlines, and that's exactly what has happened.

If he'd toned down what he was to say he'd have largely been ignored.

While I disagree with his tone, and his threatening manner, and his somewhat tactless comparison to Dunblane, he's had responses from both supporters and retractors across almost every broadsheet in Britain, and the subject is now getting a lot of attention.

Perhaps the press might like to take that in to consideration before doing exactly as he wishes.

Now, as Ms Garavelli states, many parishioners do not pay heed to some of the more extreme sexual policies of the church, so why be Catholic at all?

Given that these policies are the most visual difference between the church of Rome, and other Christian Churches, I'd say most of you should just become Protestants.

You'd still have your faith, but your actions would more closely relate to the faith that you practise.

Given that Ms Garavelli recently spoke in glowing terms about sending her child to a Roman Catholic school, does she not wonder what extreme views may be foisted upon her child, if Cardinal O Brien has anything to do with it?

Interestingly, as the Catholic church looks to be doing a U turn on the use of condoms after decades of death in Africa, could it also be that Cardinal O Brien is clinging on to the one of the last sexual policies of the church in order to justify the church somehow?

After the U turn on "limbo" by the church, could it be that Cardinal O Brien believes that the church should be sticking to it's principles, rather than sacrifice them to attract new members to a church in decline?

97

Shug,

UK 04/06/2007 11:24:26

How anyone can take heed of anything this organisation spouts is beyond me. I stand to be corrected but isn't the Catholic Church the same organisation that supported the Nazi's and covers up child molestation by it's priests.

Muppets the lot of them.

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Tuxedo Junction,

04/06/2007 11:44:51

Oh dear...

I see the usual array of bigots have assembled to publish their intolerance.

Sad. Very very sad.

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Helena,

michigan 04/06/2007 14:26:42

see Mario Cuomo's speech, Sept 13, 1984 at the u of Notre Dame re this issue.

103

Dr Pete,

04/06/2007 15:36:37

Dear Aoda

I think we have more in common (in terms of process) than perhaps we initially thought. How civilised to agree to disagree! I just wish the Cardinal could be as thoughtful to the women he is denouncing and the politicians he is excoriating with his pronouncements.

I rather agree that if some (but by no means all) of the New Testament principles were more widely practiced this would be a better place. In the meantime – it is down to decent free-thinking individuals to challenge the hegemony and hard heartedness of the priestly class. (Isn’t that why Jesus kicked the Pharisees out of the temple?). Maybe the Cardinal needs to “love his neighbour” and “not judge others” and learn to “mind his own business” (my verse!).

In the meantime – I wish you well across the Atlantic – I will certainly raise a glass to your good health when I imbibe next.

Regards

Peter

104

Helen,

04/06/2007 17:04:49

As a practising, open-minded, liberal Catholic; I really don't believe that anyone is pro-abortion. No-one wants abortion to happen, but people are hopefully mature enough to understand that when it does, there will have been a huge amount of soul searching and agonising by the woman converned and it is not a decision she will make lightly.
As a celibate man who has never had to undergo such an agonising decision, Cardinal O'Brien should show a little more Christian compassion. Denying communion to politicians smacks of a child who says "You won't play the game I want to play so I'm not letting you play with my toys". He doesn't know what every person who attends Mass every week thinks about abortion....maybe he doesn't want to, because if he did, I wonder how many people would be receiving communion?

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THE James,

Lincoln 04/06/2007 22:41:08

Tescotown,

Hhhhmmmmmm.

You were posting here a couple of weeks ago, describing yourself as, "a wee glesga Prod," and giving your location as Sussex, or was it Surrey?

You then embarked on a bit of a love-in with "Andrew Muirhead" from Linwood, encouraging and back-slapping each other in your opposition to Catholic schools.

So the question is, have you and Andrew Muirhead now set up a little love-nest together in Linwood, or are you and Andrew Muirhead actually one and the same person, posting with multiple personalities?

I think we should be told.

106

Eustace,

The Dark Wood 05/06/2007 00:00:05

104
The brand of tolerance which is increasingly promoted now means that there is no respect for traditional Social mores.

The Community is an unsafe place in which there is a reversal of Social Order.

The most basic Human considerations no longer apply.

Children and families are systematically degraded.

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05/06/2007 00:14:00
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Em,

05/06/2007 00:52:11

The Cardinal is not making threats he is simply reminding Catholics of the doctrine they claim to uphold and pointing out the hypocrisy of politicians who back the abortion law and then go to receive the Eucharist. if they are at odds with the beliefs they claim to uphold then they should refrain from receiving the Eucharist. Abortion is at odds with doctrine and so is anyone who upholds abortion.
The Cardinal is only repeating something that most Catholics should already know.

110

Katty,

Bannockburn 05/06/2007 02:48:35

#110 Digory

Was it not Rev David Steele now Lord Steele who was behind this abortion law, Is he not passing as Church of Scotland rep.
The Bible condemns abortion. How can he sleep at night'
Women are never free of guilt after an abortion. I
am chuffed my mum did not abort me as a single mum she defied my Dad and told him to get lost. We have had a wee party every year to celebrate his getting lost.
Anyone else out there who is glad they did not get
aborted. I'm not Catholic but pro life'

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Lar,

05/06/2007 03:14:58

As far as I can remember the report that appeared in The Scotsman of what Cardinal O'Brien said indicated that he was asking Catholic Politians to examine their consciences regarding the Abortion Act and to decide for themselves whether or not they ought to receive Communion. That is no more than what all Catholics are in the habit of doing ragarding their responsibilities whenever they participate in the Eucharist. I have no recollection that he used the word excommunication at any time in what he said. As far as reiterating the Catholic Church's stance on the painful issue of abortion, he has every right to do so.

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Busymale,

In the Confessional 05/06/2007 11:57:49

I dont see what agnostics, Jews, Protestants, Hindus and Muslims are complaining about. Its the Churchs interpretation of Christianity and you either believe in it or you don't. For those "selective Catholic" politicians who want the benefits yet practice what they like they should be ex-communicated.

While we have a choice of Religion we cannot choose the parts we wish to reject because it doesn't suit us. Catholic Politicians should either listen to what the Church believes in or get out. That simple.

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Tescotown,

Crawley or Linwood 05/06/2007 12:55:18

Aghh James

Thought you had taken a wee strop and fell out with me? You appear to be rather concerned for my well being, which is nice?

I actually live in Crawley in Sussex, I'm sure you have heard of it? If not, let me know and I will invite you round for some tea and Jaffa cakes.........

However after the last slaughtering you received, I'm surprised you have the brass neck to surface again on this thread?

As for using Linwood, I also say that I live on Death Row too, but have never met Ted Bundy.

Do I detect a whiff of paranoia Jim?

(Hope you don't mind me caling you Jim?)

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Tescotown,

Crawley or Linwood 05/06/2007 13:15:26

Ring, ring, ring. Ring, ring, ring. Ring, ring, ring. Ring, ring, ring. Ring, ring, ring. Ring, Ring, ring, ring. Ring, ring, ring.ring, ring. Ring, ring, ring. Ring, ring, ring...


“Hello?”


“Grumpy?”


My mind froze I recognized the falsetto voice, but couldn’t quite pin down the face.


“Grumpy? It’s me Michael … Jackson.”


Oho, I was right that I couldn’t pin down the face, but neither could his doctors!


“Er, Wacko … what are you calling me for?”


“Well Grumpy, you’re very cute for an old person you know … I need some advice.”


“On what?”


“Well, I’m in a spot of bother and you are a world-renowned troubleshooter.”


“True, Wacko, but I have to believe in what I’m saying and I’m not sure I can help you.”


“Well, I know it looks bad, but I’m innocent – they forced me to do it.”


“Oh come off it Wacko, you’re a middle-aged man (and I use that gender very loosely) so how can young boys force you to do anything?”


“I’m so misunderstood, I just want them to have a good time at my Neverland.”


“What do you mean by good time?”


“Oh, lots of cuddles and hugs, lots of expensive presents to them and their parents, and good night kisses.”


Something told me that I didn’t want to listen to any more of this glass-breakingly-pitched squeak that tried to defend the intolerable and unforgiveable.


“By the way Wacko, if you go to jail what are you going to do?”


“Well, Grumpy, I’m looking forward to the showers. Although, if my face starts to run I wonder who will fix it?”


“I’ve got just the man, Wacko, his name is Chopper Read and he is a dab hand at altering people’s appearances! And listen, why don’t you try a new career when you get out … I mean your songs are very out-of-date”


“You are cruel Grumpy, but what are you suggesting?”


“How about bec

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Tescotown,

Crawley or Linwood 05/06/2007 15:04:02

Busymale no18 wrote

I dont see what agnostics, Jews, Protestants, Hindus and Muslims are complaining about. Its the Churchs interpretation of Christianity and you either believe in it or you don't. For those "selective Catholic" politicians who want the benefits yet practice what they like they should be ex-communicated.

While we have a choice of Religion we cannot choose the parts we wish to reject because it doesn't suit us. Catholic Politicians should either listen to what the Church believes in or get out. That simple.

Straight from the Goebbels handbook of fascism?

You just don't get it my friend, do you? We are not paying MP's to be the servants of the church of Rome. We vote in our politicians to represent the people, of which, most are non Catholic (the new term for Protestant in Scotland)

I would suggest if you want live in a country where the church dictates governmental policy, then the doors of Ireland, Iran or Saidia Arabia are always open.........

What you really want is very simple? You want a minority church to dominate and control anyone is not of the same faith, you want Cardinals and Bishops to change the governments policy if it's not suitable for RC's.

However I'm afraid, the crazy Cardinal and his fascist supporters are about to wake up a sleeping monster, who may well start to vote for prospective candidates who are not RC.

If you want the electorate to vote for MP's who are of the same religion, then let's get it on?

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THE James,

Lincoln 05/06/2007 16:08:48

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead,

Slaughtering? Ha Ha Ha!

How many other nom de plumes did you use on the Catholic schools thread?

I see you're in two places at once now. I'll pass on the tea and jaffa cakes if you don't mind, that little glimpse into the fevered imaginings of your disturbed mindset #119 has really put me off. You sounded like such a nice guy(s) at first as well.

Anyway, going by your postings, Holy Mother Church is far from an irrelevance!

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Boyce,

Edinburgh 05/06/2007 16:26:42

The Catholic church needs to be very careful in expressing its views otherwise its leaving itself wide open to the kind of scutiny it can ill afford.
It has too many skeletons in the closet and is standing on very shaky foundations.

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Tescotown,

Crawley or Linwood 05/06/2007 17:13:25

The Jim

I am not Muirhead - Fact Sir!

And you took one helluva beating and you know it?

Lastly, I live in Crawley, Sussex.

How about you Jim?

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THE James,

Lincoln 05/06/2007 18:30:25

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead,

It's always funny when one side in a debate declare themselves to be winners. Like De Niro in Raging Bull, "You never knocked me down, Ray!"

Just how many other names did you post under? I bet you're Teacher Jane (Bordeaux) as well aren't you?

Anyway Mr Multiple Personality, I shouldn't mock the afflicted, so if you say you and Andrew Muirhead are not one and the same, who am I to disagree? I hope you are both (wink, wink) very happy.

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Tescotown,

Greenock 05/06/2007 19:17:17

Dear Jim

Paranoia must be a terrble affliction for the seriously offended, such as your goodself. If I recall properly, you said "I will not be posting on here again" and stormed off in a cream puff. Not to worry, that fella Nelson gave you a bloody good pasting, and you know it my friend.

At first you thought I was 1 poster, then 2, now it's 3. Next you will be accusing me of starting the potato famine?

Anyway Jimmy, you are not your usual self today, avoiding the debate and reverting to personal attacks.

I feel your mood has changed and know the battle was lost long ago????

124

THE James,

Lincoln 05/06/2007 20:52:34

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead,

A good pasting? That depends on whose side you're on. A closed mind doesn't want to listen to the other side.

I actually said, "this will be my last post on this thread, but certainly not on this site."

You're in Greenock now I see. These attempts to laugh off being discovered posting under multiple names are fooling no-one. I was going to ask if your alter-egos converse with each other, but of course they do, there's evidence of that on the other thread. Do you type with your right hand as Tescotown and your left as Andrew Muirhead?

Andrew Muirhead always seemed a bit more reasonable than Tescotown. Is he Smeagol to Tesco's Gollum?

As for avoiding the debate, you can't debate with someone who has a closed mind(s) like you have on this subject. It's supposed to be about Cardinal O'Brien's sermon on abortion, yet you think it is relevant to demonstrate your prejudices with cut and paste jobs on child abuse.

I've posted loads of stuff on the abortion debate on threads on Thursday and Friday. Had a great discussion with a real gent called JG (see above). We disagreed over it, but did not feel the slightest need to resort to insults. Probably because JG is a grown-up.

Well Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead, that's all for now. Keep it real fella(s)!

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Tescotown,

Head of Finance 05/06/2007 21:13:35

Jeez Oh Jim! You really are a paranoid man?

I'm sure like most people, abortion is a subject that most of us have problems with, in some shape or form. However this was not the issue, was it Jim?

What I'm complaing about, and you know fine well what it is. Is that "Punch a pape O'Brien" has attempted to hold Catholic MP's to ransom.

Now if you read through my previous posts above, you will see that I find it very sinister that this man, should attempt to hijack Parliament and the politicians who serve me and you.

Do you honestly believe that a Catholic MP, should ignore the wishes of his constituents, just to please the cardinal?

If any other religious leader, such as the Moderator, were to do exactly the same thing, you and the other serially offended would be the first to use the "B" word.

I also noticed you have continued the personal attacks Jimmy? Is this what people like you do, when someone disagrees with a viewpoint?

Anyone who dares question these Cardinals, who have covered up child abuse, yet feel the need to moralise to decent people like me, are instantly attacked and labelled.

By the way Jim, you still haven't told me where you come from?

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Tescotown,

Yollom 05/06/2007 21:16:35

Night night Jim

Early rise in the morning, got to keep the wheels of industry turning, in this great country of ours?

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Adoniram,

06/06/2007 08:18:08

Dear James.

Do you actually hold a viewpoint that differs from the indoctrination you received as a child?

Are you capable of analysing the doctrine from the pulpit and deciding for yourself what way you want to live your life.

Do you use contraception?
Would you consider divorce?
Do you think Priests should marry?
Do you believe in sex before marriage?
Were you a virgin before you got married?


The stench of utter hypocrisy reeks from you and others who defend the church on certain policies but will no doubt ignore others when it suits you.

Rhetorical questions as i am unlikely to get truthful answers i know.

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Michael Coughlin,

Cyber Council 06/06/2007 11:06:56

Adoniram, I encourage all my employees to free speech and upholding their own particular religious viewpoints. That said, it is interesting that you have put these questions in the way you have. It does point to the hypocritcal aspects of all religion to an extent.
Anyway, will catch you later as I have plenty Finance to sort out here which is much more important.

129

Adoniram,

06/06/2007 14:17:04

Encouraging to hear Michael.

Freedom of speech is being eroded in this country and i applaud you for taking this stance.Finances though surely dictate that your staff can't spend too much time on the internet as productivity would surely fall would it not.

And as to the point of the questions raised i tend to agree that it merely exposes the stupidity of religion as most "devout" followers are indeed not so devout in 2007.Despite what they may say to the contrary.

Better dash as my finances will be harmed spending all day on chat forums like this.

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Michael Coughlin,

06/06/2007 14:28:09

As you say Adoniram, finances do dictate that no employee that is or has been in my charge should be wasting time on the net. There would be absolute merry hell to pay if output suffered or worse, a formal complaint was sent in to us. We would need to act. That said, strongly felt beliefs should always be encouraged and debated on.

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Adoniram,

06/06/2007 14:37:41

I agree Michael.

If i am not mistaken Local Councils and Governement Bodies have very strict guidelines for this sort of thing which is reassuring.
Last thing we need is the taxpayers money being wasted by responsible individuals abusing their positions of power.

I agree about beliefs and the right to debate them but in the proper place and in the proper time don't you agree?

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Michael Coughlin,

06/06/2007 14:43:03

It was more than a little spooky that you guessed my line is in fact under the banner of "Local Councils and Governement Bodies". I'll leave it at that thanks! And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that all debate should be in the right place at the right time AND in the correct manner. The line of work I am in means that there is a lot of money involved and the public have a right to demand the best service regardless of someone being full time or Agency or whatever. This debate does, however, tend to bring the worst out in some.

133

Kay Moll,

Council Land 06/06/2007 16:16:24

Hi Michael

I know exactly what you mean when it comes to local councils and using the Internet.

We had one such Gentleman, who consistently used media messageboards to spout pro RC propoganda, as well as insult non RC's.

Luckily he moved job, before he was fired and the local media had him on the front page for his support of terrorism in Ireland.

However I'm sure he's doing much the same in his new job? Amazing the risks some will take when their job and even their marriage could be on the line.

I'm sure his new manager will catch up with his non employment activities very soon though?

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THE James,

Lincoln 06/06/2007 19:09:36

Dear Adoniram,

There's no point in me answering your questions as you have already stated you will not believe my answers.

"The stench of utter hypocrisy reeks from you and others who defend the church on certain policies but will no doubt ignore others when it suits you."

You know nothing about me, yet feel qualified to say the above. Nice.

For the record, I personally do not agree with every policy the Church holds, but as a Catholic, I have to accept that those are the rules. If I act against those policies, I do not receive communion.

The issue of abortion is way, way more serious than whether or not I use contraception or have sex before marriage. Abortion is the murder of an unborn child. It's sad that in Western society today, opposition to the murder of unborn children is perceived as a Catholic belief.

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Tescotown,

Springboig 06/06/2007 19:37:16

Jim

I remember quite vividly, you backing the RC church, even though a young Polish girl was slaughtered in a church, in which a priest was heavily involved. Now you are going all moralistic on us, and saying murder should be condemned and people who commit these acts outlawed.

Yet you never once attacked the church for allowing a convicted rapist and probable serial killer to work unchecked in a high visibilty church?

You never once attacked the Cardinal or Bishops who knew Nugent had issues (drink and hookers)

You never once attacked Cardinal Winning, who told Nugent, this is our secret, nobody else should know?

You never attacked the church for retaining Nugent in a job, even though he had been questioned about a previous murder of a hooker?

You never attacked the church for covering up child sexual abuse, when the victims then went on to commit sucicide because of the pain suffered.

The James, Lincoln

Should now read

The James, Ultimate Hypocrisy and Shame?

Hope you are proud of all the death and abuse that this once great institution has brought to the world in recent times.

A catalogue of shame.......

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Tescotown,

Springboig 06/06/2007 19:43:19

The Jim wrote

Abortion is the murder of an unborn child. It's sad that in Western society today, opposition to the murder of unborn children is perceived as a Catholic belief.

It's not seen as Catholic Jim? It's just that the cult you belong to, always attempt to impose their will on others, without due care.

Why not try and have a reasonable grown up debate about abortion, without threatening elected politicians, who are working on the citizens of this country's behalf?

You see Jim, when you try and threaten and hold people to ransom, no matter the subject or religion, it really gets on democrats nerves.

There is a name for others who attempt to impose their will on others by force.......

Fascists!

137

BILLYPOPE,

larkbridge 07/06/2007 18:32:54

For fecks sake I can't believe we are still debating this.
It is not about 'woman's right to choose' ...it is about killing bairns...no more no less. Stop hiding under a bushel you twerps.
The nazis did it, destroying the 'weak', and we all said 'never again'.
It is not about being pro RC or anti RC - it is common human morality.
Why is it still an issue.
Indefensible. You are MURDERERS.

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THE James,

Lincoln 07/06/2007 18:59:04

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead,

My, my, oh split-personalitied one, you're certainly getting yourself worked up about this.

I have never made any comment on the tragic case you refer too. In fact, as far as I remember The Scotsman never allowed any comments AT ALL on that story - probably because they could imagine the stuff some people would post on it. Not someone like yourselves of course.

How sad that you should trivialise the grief the young woman's family must feel in such a sordid way, making something up to suit your agenda, all for the sake of a bit of petty point-scoring. Why don't you post a link to the thread where I supposedly posted on this story.

You obviously have so many issues to work through about the Holy Catholic Church. How nice for you that this website provides you and your various alter-egos a platform to do it.

139

Tescotown,

Croydon 07/06/2007 19:18:46

Jim

You got a new job, it takes you ages to reply now? I remember not so long ago you would have been on this thread, spouting all sorts of Opus Dei propoganda, so what's changed?

Your days of spouting the nonsense that you have been for years, are long gone Jim, so you better get used to it pal. You will be challenged wherever and whenever you raise that spite filled, hatemonger head of yours, that's a promise.

How sad that you should trivialise the grief the young woman's family must feel in such a sordid way, making something up to suit your agenda, all for the sake of a bit of petty point-scoring. Why don't you post a link to the thread where I supposedly posted on this story.

You obviously have so many issues to work through about the Holy Catholic Church. How nice for you that this website provides you and your various alter-egos a platform to do it.

Oh no you don't Mr Hypocrite!

Come on then Jim, denounce the part the Catholic church played in this young girls murder... As for the petty point scoring rant, if ever a man resorted to child like measures, then I'm afraid you are that clown Jimmy?

Who's the person who always sneaks on before a thread finishes, like some wee spoilt brat trying to get the last word in?

The Catholic church were as guilty as Tobin my friend, and you damn well know it. No amount of Goebbles like propoganda will ever take the facts away from the truth.

Probable serial killer, working with Priest who has been questioned about the murder of two women in Glasgow?

Winning's little cover up of Nugent's foibles?

A church steeped in sexual abuse of children?

My conscience is clear Jimmy, is yours?

Still not telling me where you come from Jim?

Hope the new job works out?

140

Tescotown,

Croydon 07/06/2007 19:20:48

For fecks sake I can't believe we are still debating this.
It is not about 'woman's right to choose' ...it is about killing bairns...no more no less. Stop hiding under a bushel you twerps.
The nazis did it, destroying the 'weak', and we all said 'never again'.
It is not about being pro RC or anti RC - it is common human morality.
Why is it still an issue.
Indefensible. You are MURDERERS.

Above is the reason we cannot let the fascists ever gain control?

141

Tescotown,

Croydon 07/06/2007 19:38:21

From the Scotsman May 2007

Nugent, who claims he had sex with Angelika Kluk, added: "Angela [his name for her] was very fond of me. She was infatuated with me and it was a nice feeling.

"I take responsibility for it too. I felt she saw me as a father figure. She trusted me and everything I was doing. She admired me. Angela was no slut. I am weak and we had intimacy three or four times but we had sexual intercourse only once, as far as I can remember."

Amazingly, Nugent alleged that Archbishop Conti's predecessor, the late Cardinal Winning, knew about his weakness for women and offered his support. The priest said: "He was superb. He said to me: 'Gerry, I am concerned about you.' He was compassionate. He was very helpful.

"When I spoke to him about the issues, he promised: 'This is just between you and I, Gerry'."

The Church has reacted to the scandal by effectively sacking him and attempting to make sure he never works anywhere else as a priest.


Hey Jim, this is just between me and you?

How disgustingly bad, does it have to get before you condemn these animals?

142

Tescotown,

Croydon 07/06/2007 19:40:48
143

Tescotown,

Croydon 07/06/2007 19:46:46

What do you say Jim?

Harrowing details of the widespread and systematic abuse of children in care homes run by nuns in Scotland will not be heard after judges rejected three test cases yesterday.

If the case by three former residents against "Sister Bernard Murray and Others" of the Nazareth House in Cardonald, Glasgow, had been successful, it would have allowed hundreds of people to detail the abuses they say they suffered at the hands of carers in the homes, run by the Catholic Church.

Appeal court judges at the Court of Session in Edinburgh ruled that the three former residents were too late in bringing the case, which centres on claims of physical abuse and lack of care in the 1960s and 1970s.

Last night Chris Daly, 42, from Glasgow, a former resident of a Nazareth Home in Aberdeen who was awaiting the test cases outcome for his own legal battle, said survivors were being denied the right to tell their story.

He said: "When I was ten years old the nuns punished me by making me stand in a tiny dark mortuary containing the coffins of elderly people who had died. We were made to stand out in the snow in our underwear for having a pillow fight. We were kicked and punched as a matter of course and the nuns hit us with anything which came to hand. This type of evidence needs to be heard. The judgment may halt things a bit but we are all determined to keep going."

Mr Daly, who is on disability benefit as a result of the psychological suffering he said he endured, added: "We have a very harsh interpretation of the time bar in Scotland, whereas in England the interpretation has been a lot more flexible."

The judgment has effectively ended the action of about 450 people who claimed they were physically and psychologically abused by nuns.

However, Cameron Fyfe, the solicitor acting on behalf of the former residents, said last night he was considering appealing to the House of Lords.

144

Tescotown,

Croydon 07/06/2007 19:51:06

What's the Opus Dei line on these murders Jim?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom3.htm

145

THE James,

Lincoln 07/06/2007 20:07:53

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead,

Have you calmed down yet fella(s)? Were you waiting for me all last night and had to wait 24 hours to get the latest rant off your chest?

I can feel your anger and frustration from here (where "here" is, is no secret). SIX posts in an hour! Your keyboard must be belching as much steam as the ears of your split personalities.

Now listen Bhoy(s) - you don't mind if I call you that do you? - hatred is a self-destructive emotion which will consume you in the end if you let it.

Try to let it go, you'll feel a lot better for it.

146

Tescotown,

On yer doorstep 08/06/2007 11:10:35

Jeez Oh! Jim,

The paranoia can almost be tasted from here. Wish I had been educated in an apartheid school, then I would have been as screwed up you are?

As for the Bhoys part, once you get riled Jim, the nonsense always comes to the fore, just like the Timmy thread last week? You really can't help being an odious little hatemonger, can you?

Now let's get back to my threads from last night, any opinions on these articles Jim? Or do you react like all good Opus Dei fascists and completely ignore children being abused? Come on Jim, tell everyone these people are just misunderstood, and we all have it in for these animals....

Come on Jim, we deserve to know what went wrong with these Priests and Nuns?

No matter where you raise that ugly little sectarian head of yours Jim, I will be waiting, that's a promise.

Now keep up the old Timmy (your words Jimmy) paranoia, it really is marvellous to watch such a creature in action.

Where do you live again Jim?

147

Michael Coughlin,

Money land 08/06/2007 11:25:59

"Amazingly, Nugent alleged that Archbishop Conti's predecessor, the late Cardinal Winning, knew about his weakness for women and offered his support. The priest said: "He was superb. He said to me: 'Gerry, I am concerned about you.' He was compassionate. He was very helpful.

"When I spoke to him about the issues, he promised: 'This is just between you and I, Gerry'." And this from one of the top men of the Roman Catholic church in Scotland who want to preach their way or the highway from their Ivory Towers? This isnt just coming off the rails now and then, its top to bottom hypocrisy from the RC church. Desperate actions from desperate men clinging on to the dwindling influence they think they exert. I still await a credible policy statement on the genocide like death toll in Africa as a direct result of denying contraception from this archaic hierarchy.

148

Tescotown,

On yer doorstep 08/06/2007 11:30:44

Hey Jim

Talking of people with split personalities and double names, which I'm sure if you look at the style and use of words, you will see me and Andrew are not the same.

But that's beside the point, believe what you will, If it feeds into your sick mind, then that makes me happy.

But have you ever heard of a chap, who went onto a rival football website and slightly changed his name. He then pretended to support his rival team, until he was caught and nearly had to change his underwear?

Now that would be the work of a paranoid lunatic, what do you think Jim?

You see Jim, people like your goodself, who have been spouting hate and venom for years, only get away with it for so long, before they are caught out?

KNOW WHAT I MEAN JIM?

The power of the Internet, ehhh Jimmy........

149

Tescotown,

On yer doorstep 08/06/2007 11:32:04

Michael

See post 144?

150

Michael Coughlin,

Ex moneyland 08/06/2007 11:45:03

Tescotown, I was actually quoting from your post. I should have made that clearer sorry.

151

THE James,

Lincoln 08/06/2007 16:01:52

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead,

I wonder if you are at all aware of the irony in your posts? Probably not.

Do you really want to know my location? It's staring you in the face(s) my perceptive friend(s).

Are you really going to be there wherever I post? Just on this site or on any other?

My own little pet stalker(s)! Woohoo!

Seriously though, what an angry, hate-filled person(s) you are. It permeates everything you have posted on this thread. You really should seek some form of professional help. Honestly, I don't see how you can possibly be happy. Did a Catholic (maybe even a priest or a nun) humiliate you or something when you were small(er)? Maybe one of them stuck your head(s) down the toilet or gave you a wedgie once? Maybe it was something more serious. In any case, you have my sympathy and I will remember you in my prayers.

Try to let it go.

152

Tescotown,

On yer doorstep 08/06/2007 18:36:08

Jim

You stay in Lincoln do you?

It's becoming very obvious to all reading this, that you refuse to discuss the child abuse withing the Catholic church. Surely a humanitarian Christian, such as your good self, should be condemning the horrendous activies taking place in Catholic places of worship.

As for the hate filled person! I feel a little man who's been writing propoganda for years, unchallenged I may add, and now you are getting the truth staring you in the face, yer little petted lip comes out Jim.

A priest did try to stick my head down a toilet one time, but before he could do any anal damage, Father Winning intervened and told him

"Don't say anything, this is between me and you"

A church involved and supported by child abusers and fascists - FACT

153

Tescotown,

On yer doorstep 08/06/2007 18:39:20

Go on Jim

Answer one of my questions about child abuse, or people who try to sneak on to rival teams meassageboards.

Games up Jimmy, you have been found out big time!

It only takes one mistake and you are caught?

154

Rod Lamon,

CRAWLEY 08/06/2007 20:06:37

154

the postings of a beaten man ,I would say.Bet your hands are sweating and the slightest creak has your heart beating-bit like the unease that many innocents have had to endure within the evil of the RC church.
There really is no sanctuary in this day and age.

155

THE James,

Lincoln 08/06/2007 20:55:14

Good Lord there's another one!

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead/Rod Lamon,

Are you Michael Coughlin as well? The "style" seems very similar.

"Jim

You stay in Lincoln do you?"

Well duh! I knew you'd work it out eventually, but I thought the fact that every post I make gives my location as "Lincoln" was a REAL giveaway. What school did you say you went to?

You really should seek help, and I really, really mean that. You have an unhealthy obssession with the Holy Catholic Church. It's not good for the soul to hate so much. I never see you posting on any other topic, although there is always the possibility that you have even more alter-egos, and maybe they post on other threads.

Well Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead/Rod Lamon, I'm going to leave you to rant away for a bit. I might, JUST MIGHT, be posting on the football threads in a little while. See you there fella(s)!

"No matter where you raise that ugly little sectarian head of yours Jim, I will be waiting, that's a promise."

You did mean that, didn't you? Please say you did!

156

Rod Lamon,

Crawely 09/06/2007 05:41:49

bit late to deflect now James.
Is my post to close to home for you???
Was that a play on words- unholy and catholic church- as it seems to be that anyone looking to that harbourer of proven evil needs protected.
keep listening for that creak.

157

Tescotown,

Harthill 09/06/2007 11:28:48

Oh The paranoia is so thick, I can almost taste it Jim! Now everyone who posts anything that Jim disagrees with, he will accuse them of being me.

As for living in Lincoln, you sure Jim?

Now are you going to condemn the abusers of children or not? Or do you accept and condone children being atacked and molested without any qualms?

I really think you should comment Jim, the more you ignore the question, the more people will believe you actually agree with the abusers and paedophiles, who are so common in the church.

You also ignored the comment about registering on a rival website under a false name, why is that Jim? You got something to hide?

I do have an obsession with child abusers (Holy Catholic church according to you) the more children are abused, and the more people like you condone it, the more determined I am to ensure people like you are brought to the publics attention. It's very simple Jim, you either despise the child abuse taking place in RC places of worship, or you support it.

What's it to be Jim?

Look out Jim, I'm behind you?

(Suppose it's better than a priest being behind you Jim)

158

THE James,

Lincoln 09/06/2007 14:01:03

Tescotown/Andrew Muirhead/Rod Lamon,

So you ARE obsessed with child abusers.

I've already said (although admittedly in a flippant way, so I'll say it seriously now) that if you were abused as a child you have my sympathy and prayers. ANYONE who abuses children should be punished as severely as possible under the law. You will find that where there is a suspicion of child abuse having taken place, no one is above the law, not even Catholic priests - and rightly so. I've said that before on this site, so I'm sure with your formidable research skills you'll be able to find it.

As a self-confessed child-abuser obsessive, you will already know that the vast majority of child abuse cases occur in the family home, and are carried out by a relative or close family friend of the innocent victim.

By channelling all your hatred and self-loathing at the Catholic Church on this issue, you are trying to kill a shark by pulling one of its teeth. That's not the only reason you hate the Church though is it fella(s)?

I commend you for your undoubted concern for children. They are our future and must be protected from harm at all costs. As a lover of children, you will obviously be fully behind (in a metaphorical sense of course) Cardinal O'Brien in his opposition to abortion. Remember that, the topic of this thread?

159

Tescotown,

Harthill 09/06/2007 15:13:26

The paranoia is now creating a stench, along with the hypocrisy regarding the abuse of children!

So Jim, Cardinal O'Brien should be locked up in jail, along with all the other Priest and nuns who have abused children? You see Jim, If you willingly cover up for a child abuser, or willingly don't inform the police, that sexual abuse is takling place, then you are as guilty as the perpetrator.

That's exactly what's happening within the Catholic church on a daily basis, yet you still rant on about everyone being anti Catholic.

Jim, If anyone in my family, never mind anyone my church, was abusing children, I would have no hesitation in reporting them to appropriate authorities, no matter how difficult a situation that would put me in. Abusing innocent little children, is one of the most henious crimes known to man, yet here we have Cardinals and Bishops refusing to report and actively taking part in this crime.

As for the issue of abortion, I'm of mixed feelings, probably like everyone else. However at the end of the day, it's not my body and it's not me who has to make a final decision. To say to some young women who has been raped and been made pregnant by this horrible crime, that she has to carry this baby and deliver the baby, becauase the Catholic church will not allow you to have an abortion, is completely and utterly absurd. However I don't agree with abortion for the sake of a child imposing on someones lifestyle or financial situation, so I hope that clears the issue up for you?

So now we are on the same side Jim, I would expect you to be publicly calling for priests, Nuns and Cardinals to be arrested immediately, and hand over all known documents and information to the police, so that child abusers are rounded up and slung in prison.

Another aspect of this topic you appropriately forgot, was the Cardinals attempted blackmail and holding to ransom, of elected politicians in this country. O'brien is treading on very this ic

160

Tescotown,

Harthill 09/06/2007 16:01:06

Jim

If the poll at the top of the page is anything to go by, you will accept that the majority do not agree with "Punch a Pape O'brien"

Or are the 64% (last time of viewing) all anti Catholic? Because that's what you appear to be implying with anyone who disagrees.

161

Tescotown,

Rome 10/06/2007 10:02:22
162

leith keely,

scottish parliament, holyrood.. 10/06/2007 11:48:45

thank god i`m an athiest.


 

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