#1 Chairman G

Sneer if you want to but the cost of electricity and gas is forecast to rise by anything up to 20% over the next couple of years.

The only depressing thing about this story is that we don't make solar cells..

So you can save money if you are rich enough.
You can win a Nobel prize for saving the planet if you fly round the world enough times telling people to reduce fuel use.
Banks will lend you money if you can prove that you do not really need it.
And if you are rich enough to spend £5000 on a solar panel the rest of us, who cannot afford it, will give you £2500 for every one you buy.
We liberate a country from dictatorship by destroying it.
Fishermen save fish from over fishing by returning them dead into the sea.
A police force who let a man they were sure was a suicide bomber make two bus journeys and get onto the underground before putting 7 bullets into his head were protecting us from terrorism and nobody did anything wrong except the poor man who was foolish enough to have a dark complexion and curly hair.
It's a funny old world.

#4 You can do what ever you want as far as I'm concerned.

However, a more sensible approach would be to ask why it is that devices such as solar and small wind turbines cost so much. We need this technology to be far more widely used not only to save ourselves money in the medium term but to help ensure security of supply.

#6

For me climate change isn't the issue. If it exists then its genuinely catastrophic consequences are maybe fifty years or more away.

The real issue is energy supply and particularly the supply of liquid fuels. The impact of a problem with liquid fuels is going to hit us much sooner. Maybe the next couple of years. Oil prices are rising and now so are gas prices. Electricity costs will go up but fuel prices will go up a lot more and there is a real possibility of a shortage developing.

Is one allowed to install this kit in a conservation area?

On the one hand we are being told to exclude drsughts and on the other the building regulations say we must have permanent ventilation.

Are we joined up or what?

that was the revenue cost
what was the captal cost

as a result a tabloid article

Why is Heriot-Watt University described as "prestigious"? It isn't.

By continental standards, the price of PST 5,000 per panel seems a little high. My retiree brother in law got about 10 of these recently and tells me he will probably make a profit in 10-12 years. Well, old man, I hope you will still be alive then.

There is a lot of spin regarding renewable energy and much of the claims about the technology do not stack up. I spent a fortune installing geothermal heating into my super-insulated new house and the forecast energy use is nowhere near the actual energy used. From an economic perspective I would have been as well burning oil. Also, it has been reported that the wonderful woodchip burning boilers in two nearby swimming pools dont work and the backup fosil fuel boilers have to be used.
Meanwhile a local wind turbine has collapsed, rotor blades have cracked and at another windfarm, all of the gear boxes have had to be replaced.
I'm all for renewable energy but it is time the public were given the truth about it instead of how wonderful it all is.

#3 WJ

Excellent post

My friend in Greece has solar panels in the roof of his house. It makes sense with the amount of sunshine over there.

In Scotland, we have a more labour-intensive strategy but it works just as well. It's called turning things off when not in use.

Get those fingers moving!

PV cells - the ones that turn sunlight into electricity - are only about 15% efficient. Much better to get the type that heat water, which can convert three times as much solar power.

#2. This saddo contributes nothing but a dripping roast of negative comments on these forums and walks perpetually in the shadows, he never has a positive contribution and must be one of the most bitter and twisted people in Scotland. The wind is forever blowing in his girning face. Just thank God he is not your neighbour.
These technologies are the way forward for the planet, and thankfully plenty of people and universities are now pushing the envelope on this, not the least of them being the Pure project in Unst.http://www.pure.shetland.co.uk/html/index.htmlhttp://www.... Even Ken Livingston has put forward the idea that London can be autonomous, soon, in terms of power supply through new technologies.
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/drupal/node/1042?gclid=CK7...

Fortunately Scotland is now well place to push forward the technology with an intelligent and resourceful First Minister at the helm of The Scottish Government.

I have always said that if the "Anti-Nukies" and the rest of the Enviro-Terrorist would have spend as much time, money and waisted energy,(yes fuel, AND manhours) coming up with an alternated fuel source as they did marching, destroying government own property( which the tax payers funded) and protesting EVERYTHING that wasn't their Idea we wouldn't be in the spot we are now. The sand fleas in the middle east would still be riding camels instead of Bentlies, living in tents instead of Billion dollar mansons and certainly wouldn't have the funds to attack others. It was the U.S. tax payers money that built the first oil wells in the 50s and now they are showing their thanks,,,anyone surprise at the way they pay back kindness. In that part of the world kindness is a show of weakness, and weakness, along with a million other redicules things, is a sin over there. As for The Chairman's first post,,,the man is right, this clown is another Al Gore,,,too rich, too arogant and too lazy to get a REAL job,,,oh yeah,,his Daddy, Al Gore, was ultra- Rich too,,,So sunny boy NEVER had to work at ANYTHING he did, just like the clown in the article.

I just hope her "electric" bill was well insulated when she cut it!

Boswell
I am in admiration of your mastery of the language,,,You use you tonge like a sword and your mind like a master in the art of self defence and the defence of others, bravo. All I have to say is Y.D.M. You Da Man,,,to put it in street lingo, sorry, I can't say it like you, but hey, I'm just a simple country boy,,,LOL Who was a Cop and is now a Lineman (Electrical, anything over 5000 volts) working for what I get,,,like you. I-am-envious! Thank you for your stand. I see your education hasn't clouded your ability to think for yourself like so many others who memorize books for 4 yrs and repeat what their school masters have spewed., again, Bravo. For once we have an educated person that knows of what he speaks.

Article, OK. Comments, Priceless!

"Solar panels now cost around £5,000, although there are Government grants to reduce the outlay by up to 50%."

...and in Spain including a 300 litre tank....£1,000.

Rip-off Britain.

....and yes I've got one.

...it came with the house - pre installed.

Chairmn

..another day...another hair up yer erse. You are swiftly becoming our very own Victor Meldew.

Obviously it should have been chairman.

#24, 25, 26...Methspana: Do you know the difference between a solar water heating panel and a photovoltaic panel? The difference is £4000.

Prof Sue Roaf is a dangerous woman. It takes much energy to make photovoltaic cells, energy that is not recouped quickly. Similarly it takes much energy to make household appliances; throwing out old appliances that still work and replacing them with new ones is ecologically filthy, unless of course you use them for hours every day. If everyone decided to travel down the Roaf Road simultaneously, greenhouse gases would go through the roaf, roof I mean - er - if you haven't already made your house gastight. The best advice is: Don't be an eco-freak, but take modest, sensible, and affordable steps towards improving your energy consumption. One step at a time, starting with that draft coming from the fridge door - whether it be McEwan's Export or Guinness.

#28. It's MELDREW ... unless of course you meant mildew???

Lovely stuff! I am glad that this woman is doing her bit to reduce energy consumption and global warming.

Surely though, if fossil fuels are going to run out at some point, we should be getting the planet as warm as possible first so that it will be more comfortable when we have no oil to heat our homes or run our cars. This is my logic whenever I crank up the V12.

Climate Change. The earth survives, but the human race may not. That's it. Now make merry while you can, just in case.

The is no such thing as an "electric" bill. It is an ELECTRICITY bill.

The word "electric" is an adjective or a pronoun, not a noun.

Please correct this headline/

I have always been concerned that the vast cost of buying and installing these systems actually have a far larger carbon footprint than the energy they save

who cares about whit happens efter yur deid
Ma philosophy is tae use as much resources as ah need fur ma indulgent, hedonistic lifestyle before ah go

haw wifey..............anither pina colada here hen an' turn up the heating so ah cin take ma claethes aff

Solar ponds are a cheaper and much better 'low tech' solution.

Solar power is not the way forward. Solar cells are very inefficient and will never be that efficient (I forget the percentage I'm afraid, but it's not that high), and they cost a fortune to produce.

If you are one of these idiots that thinks that driving a 4x4 is a sin akin to child abuse and that we can stop global warming by cycling rather than driving then get behind wind and water power which is being developed in Orkney - at least this has a realistic shot at being useful.

Another article with an environmental slant....

Another set of comments that read like an OPEC meeting.

If you want to know why photovoltaics and other technologies cost so much, why not ask the current government who prefer to invest tens of billions in nuclear power and weapons, road building and airports then insult people by announcing research grants in 4 or if you're lucky 5 figures for 'renewables'.

Anyway...it's six and half a dozen whether or not people support these new technologies because either way we're 30 years behind where we'd need to be able to replace fossil fuels with renewables. What this means of course is that in about 10 years the UK will look like the setting of Children of Men and another 10 years later somewhere in between Mad Max and the siege of babylon.

Bob, your argument is out of date. There hasn't been any significant public investment in fission R&D for over a decade. The govt have explicitly stated that they would not put any public money into new nuclear power stations. The same is true regarding fission R&D for nearly all the OECD countries apart from France and Japan. Investment in renewables R&D has exceeded fission for years. It is just taking a very long time to see any significant payback, which is why it was not done sooner.

It seems wholly inappropriate to be deploying PV solar panels in the UK. These materials are in short supply, they take a great deal of energy and CO2 to produce, and they would be better deployed in sunnier latitude. I have great hopes for solar as part of the solution to our energy needs, but the example in the article is just expensive green tokenism. Renewable microgeneration is utterly counter-productive. The future of renewables is in large-scale plants, sited in geographically appropriate locations. Small is useless.
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/10/06/small-is-useless/

Hello Sue,
This is fantastic! Can you tell me where you are building the eco community? I am particularly keen on Earthships and I am trying to find land to build one on.
Please look me up on website www.robhain.com and click on the Earthship button.

Rob

Photovoltaics are a complete waste of time and money. Design life is what, 15 years, but the payback time is 30+years. Does not compute.

Solar hot water works and is cost effective but use flat plates - not evacuated tubes which are too expensive to maintain as the whole shooting match has to come off the roof if one breaks.

I know, I have a Solar HW system for a year and a half now. I now fill my C/H oil tank once a year instead of twice a year as previously. Payback is roughly 7 years on CURRENT oil prices

Also have a woodburning stove. The most effective solar collector in the world is a TREE. Self repairing, self replacing, needs no maintenance, carbon neutral. Don't hug em, burn them. OK not in the city.
And Passive Solar in new build - big windows on the south, small windows on the north.
And above all insulation. 90% of the environmental impact of a house results from energy cost in use, if the house lasts 60 years. if it lasts longer than 60 years, the proportion arising from energy cost in use increases still further.

Furthermore ye bams:

Housing accounts for only 10% of a city's total ecological footprint. As does car transport - another 10%

Food and food packaging accounts for 35-40%
Food is the big issue which nobody talks about. No gadgets so not 'sexy'. Except Wendy eating chocolate with those lips. Sorry.

The biggest sustainability policy change any Government could make would be to encourage more local food production:
Allotments should NEVER be built on, and more should be created,
Why not convert pointless Green Belt into smallholdings?

And a third of food bought ends up in landfill.

my old hieland granny used tae tell me that if it sounds too good to be true it likely isnae true.
what is missing from the article is
1.the capital cost of the power generation equipment
2. the annual maintenance and equipment replace-
ment costs, and
3. the opportunity losses from investing the capital
costs in revenue producing assets
At the present time Ms. Roaf is to say the least mis-
leading. She should tell the whole story to be credible.

They all laughed at Christopher Columbus when he said the world was round
They all laughed when Edison recorded sound
They all laughed at Wilbur and his brother when they said that man could fly
They told Marconi wireless was a phony, it's the same old cry
But ho, ho, ho! Who's got the last laugh now?

They all laughed at Rockefeller Center, now they're fighting to get in
They all laughed at Whitney and his cotton gin
They all laughed Fulton and his steamboat,
Hershey and his chocolate bar
Ford and his Lizzie, kept the laughers busy, that's how people are
But ho, ho, ho! Who's got the last laugh now?

44. Colin, Glasgow

I agree with you about photovoltaics. Much of microgeneration is simply not viable, partially because of the uk's climate (sun is never going to generate our needs) and mostly because engineering the micro systems cost much more in energy, resources or initial outlay to make any sense.

Monbiot is right about the need for massive generation, unfortunately this is at odds with our current distribution systems (low voltage AC losing so much over distance), and more importantly it isn't compatible with the structure of our communities which have become sprawling satellites. The only way I can see efficiencies of massive generation in one place working is if the homes and businesses they power are in the same location.

I don't know if it's out of fashion with many 'greenies' but personally I think we have it all wrong with regards to planning new communities. Instead of more Miller/Cala/Barrat style villages sprawling further and further away from town centres, we should be doing the opposite and building super high density housing. The efficiencies that could be had in energy generation and distribution, nevermind cutting down on road transport and other infrastructure, would be huge.

If you want an example of what i mean, visit Hong Kong, but not the down town areas which were randomly and badly planned in the 60s, go to the new developments to the north where most residents live. These are incredibly dense, yet beautiful places to live, you don't need a car just about every journey, there are huge open food markets on the ground/basement of each housing block (plus some parking), and great open squares/circles that are well maintained, leafy and connect directly with malls/restaurants and even municipal buildings like community centres and schools.

The only downside is the size and limited soundproofing of the flats in these blocks. Most uk residents wouldn't want to live in small apartments like these where you can

p.s. I think instead of encouraging small generation, what we should be focusing on is small scale insulation because most houses out there leak energy as though you'd purposefully designed them to emit infrared 24/7. Those thermal photographs say it all, people with single glazed windows and trendy blinds while heat beams out, lofts where the builders have either not installed insulation, or it's sat for years in rolls at the end of the loft until the owner goes up and notices :)

Unfortunately the current government relinquishes responsibility for just about any form of regulation (except tax raising) on the justification that the market should provide the solutions. So we're not going to see the necessary laws implented requiring new housebuilders to meet minimum standards of energy efficiency. These laws apply in sweden, norway and germany and they are way ahead of us in building homes that don't waste most of the energy consumed. But as long as people like Ruth Lea and the CBI have the ear of the government, our leaders will be paralysed and unable or unwilling to take the simple measures needed to bring Britain's housing out of the dark ages.

the point is not that i am rich - which i am not compared to lots of people in edinburgh - though rich in terms of many other - the point is that I have chosen to invest in this technology because I am a smart investor. How many people spend £15,000 on a car ? not me. I have the lowest carbon petrol car in Britain (VWLupo) so when i fill up it costs me £25 while another person to go the same distance would cost £50-100. Whose smart ? And the eco-house is just a compilation of getting every little thing right - get rid of the draughts - get the insulation in - get a good porch on - get a good place to hang your washing to dry outside - etc etc - then add you solar hot water - then the PVs or wind. the bottom line is that my electricity bill today is around £ because i invested wisely 12 years ago - and when i retire I can run my house on a state pension. Goldman Sachs predicted the $100 two years ago and they say that by 2015 the price of oil could go to $300 a barrel - have a look on any of the Peak Oil sites: theoildrum.com; aspo; odac etc. The writing is on the wall and not everyone will be smart enough to see it - that is why i do back regulation and grants - we calculated that £200billion investment would reduce carbon emissions from every UK house by 60-65%.
It is going to cost £100billion to clean up the current nuclear power stations - and the Bank of England shelves out £30 at the drop of a hat - if the UK government put in £20 billion a year for the next 10 years we might all have low carbon homes - its the only way we will survive the coming decades with any sort of quality of life in tack - get the book Ecohouse: Design Guide - 3rd Edition and future-proof your life ! or else go out and buy yourself a flash car ? whatever! Sue

52. The Bob Campbell, North Berwick / 12:46pm 26 "most houses out there leak energy as though you'd purposefully designed them to emit infrared 24/7"

heh! so very true. 90mm stud timber frame houses for Godsake - might as will build wattle and daub!

I thought that Findhorn was Scotland's first eco-community. Has it been forgotten 45 years on?