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discovered on newsnow -good publicity for the Scotsman
The debate has gone beyond the control or influence of anyone in or from Scotland. Scotland is now irrelevant to the debate about the future of the now irrelevant 'union'. The people of England will give the people of Scotland their independence, even if, as is more likely, the latter vote against it.
Here's to Scotch independence.
When you select the printer version you will find the Wendys speech is followed by these related linksfree tips to gain self condfidence""powerful self confidence hypnosis ""assertiveness and cofidence training"That apart,this is a very poor speech-some features;simplistic link to her childrens future..".SNP tried to engineer end of the UK "-predictable link to Donald -his love of the Union???-the entire speechh is sprinkled with such phrases as "Any impetus towards independence is social" You will find many more juicy,meaningless sound bites and naive attempts to generate anxietyMiss Alexander -this will no do and to fink that you might have been first minister !
So after a debate between Wendy Alexander and Nicola Sturgeon:
65% wanted to end the union.
32% preferred the status quo.
3% didn't know.
A majority of over 2 to 1 in favour of independence.
Even better than ALL the recent opinion polls, and much closer to recent votes by posters on the Scotsman site.
Hootsman, why didn't you just publish the ACTUAL figures instead of trying to conceal them in a form of words designed to confuse?
And, no disrespect to Nicola, can you imagine what the result would be if Alex was debating with wee Jack? (Not that Jack will ever put himself in that position - feartie or what?)
Murdo - you should be ashamed of yourself - you're becoming even more of a unionist stooge.
Bill, Dunblane, That was an excellent point about the Scotsman's summary comment being phrased in wording that seemed designed to confuse or mislead the hasty reader.Even when the facts say othersise, some unionist commentators will do their utmost to distort them !
#2. Are you a morris dancer?
An independent Scotland will be small nation with high taxes or a small nation with poor public services and a large gap between rich and poor. It is now part of a large nation with a reasonable level of taxation and an above average level of public services. Yes, the English may have many more MPs but that does not mean all the English vote the same way. The current set-up is an excellent one for Scotland and it is the only way it will be taken seriously in the world. Say 'no' to this Roystan Vasey SNP nationalism.
Royster, I dont know what planet you are from.We already have sky high taxes and poor public services, and a large gap between rich and poor.
This is the modern union. Time to get rid of it.
8 OYSTER. Small spineless creature.NEXT TIME YOU PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR POSTERIOR DO SOME RESEARCH.2005/2006 If you factor in the North Sea Corporation tax, from the Scottish sector. Scotlands revenue is £52.94 billion. Expenditure is £52.33 billion. So we have a surplus of .61 billions. FISCAL PRUDENCE that must even impress Broon. McCrone was right in the seventies and it is no different today. So to anyone who say’s that Scotland is in deficit or a drain on the resources of the UK, I say before you repeat the lie, go on to the UK treasury web site and count the beads. It is all in the public domain folks, facts are chiels that winae ding. I say this again London is the black hole in the UK that sucks in the subsidy, and we all suffer
Duncan, don't be so hard on Oyster. The accounting system has been changed (fudged) to give the impression that you are right, in fact you're WRONG.
I didn't think Wendy was even an MSP anymore,she seems to have plenty work elsewhere,no doubt brother Douglas prodded her in to action,"champagne socialists" the pair of them,hopefully their like will be removed come May.
11.
Pretty good argument there. Care to back it up?
The move towards independence is becoming overwhelming, certainly among those who post on this site. Last time they ran an online poll it was only 3 to 1 against the union - at present, (tho' even I imagine it'll adjust somewhat) it's 9 to 1!
#11 Patharris
Just like Nik, I am curious where you get that the idea that Duncan is wrong?
I have posted enough evidence on that site that you and W G Gruff (as I know exactly who he is!) we contribute on and there certainly hasn't been a sound rebuttal by your compatriot contributers yet! You also do realise that the Government received something in the region of £13 billion of oil revenues last year?
Also the top 500 companies in Scotland, in 2005, produced £23.5 billion in PROFITS, which would mean that something like £7 billion of this total would have been received by the Government in Corporation Tax. Source:
http://business.scotsman.com/economy.cfm?id=15092007
Another thing: Duncan's figures are purely based on the discredited GERS methodology which has certainly downplayed Scotland's true tax revenues (as Scotland's share of Corporation Tax HAS been downplayed by GERS) and has went well overboard on how much expenditure there is, especially when it comes to the "unidentifiable" expenditure.
Just three days ago it was revealed that the Scottish Executive have made a right cock up of the GERS figures:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6267881.stm
As such, Scotland has charged for its share of English tourism, even though Scottish tourism is totally charged to Scotland.
Scotland has charged for its share of English law costs even though Scottish law costs are totally charged to Scotland.
And still Scotland is charged for its share of national museums and galleries in the rest of the UK even though Scottish museums and galleries in Scotland are totally charged to Scotland.
And STILL the spending on government and defence, of which is mostly spent in and around the South-East, has also been charged to Scotland on a per capita
I was at this debate and it was about 80% for Independence and 20% for the Union.
And the SOS challenges the artithmetic of the political parties!
I was at the debate last night and very interesting it was indeed. It was conducted with far more civility and respect than we have come to expect from Parliamentary debates. Wendy Alexander obviously passionately believes in what she says but she still couldnt convince me otherwise. The SNP is able to counter almost any argument with the point that why is it that Scotland should be so unqiquely incapable of running its own affairs. It was very difficult for Wendy to answer this point as it would mean insulting both Scotland and countless other nations.
My point today is that unless my eyes deceived me and I missed half the hall last night, that the vote in favour of end of Union was much more than two-thirds. Anyone else at the debate last night? Am I wrong?
As stated above the reporting of the result was very cleverly phrased. I am sure if it had been the other way round it would have been the headline!! Still, you've got to love em haven't you? At least they are having these debates.
17,
You got there before me!
People get the government they deserve, that's what democracy is all about.The stupid British, for no plausible reason other than 'it was time for a change', got Blair & Co - eased in by a little bit of film star twaddle.The even more stupid Palestinians voted in to power the one party guaranteed to ensure no peace,no money and no international respect.The Scots look poised, potentially, to make a stupid move - let them get on with it. Children learn by their mistakes and so do nations.It is an unfortunate, but essential ingredient of democracy, that one man gets one vote - whether he be a complete moron, with a silly haircut, tattoos, a ring through his nose and living on benefit or an intelligent, hard-working, respectable tax-payer. It is the flaw in the system, but there is no acceptable solution.However, it is in the nature of things that, the pyramid being wider at the bottom, we often get silly, ill thought out election results.The destruction of The Union is potentially in such a category, but that may not deter the Scots from being beguiled by the SNP and their highly plausible leader.
21 - tim (ever so nice but.....)
You obviously didn't read the above article or posts, just copied your post from the main story of the day.
So 88% of those who voted in the poll on this page, 80% of the people who actually attended the debate, and even the Hootsman admits 65%, have in your words, 'look poised, potentially, to make a stupid move'?
i was also at the debate last night and i asked the question at the very end once the vote had been passed(80-20 as stated), if the Scotland on Sunday would take on board the result, the editor said he would but here we are, false reporting yet again from the unionist media.
23 - paul
Given that you and a couple of other posters were actually AT the debate, then I would trust your figures. Was Murdo Mclod there?
I'm assuming this article, or another covering the debate, will feature in tomorrow edition of Scotland on Sunday, there is plenty of time for the information to be corrected, and if not, it is an absolute abuse of press power.
There's three of us here who were at the debate all saying what we saw - which was AT LEAST 80% of those present for independence. Be interesting to see if the SOS spin it otherwise tomorrow.
And both Sturgeon and Alexander said (during the Q&A discussion) they woudl be supportive of an elected head of state!!! Which was against both their party's polices and which hasnt been reported. Wonder why?
Some Intersting finding here:
Out of 100 Votes the Scotsman Opinon poll: What is the best way forward for Scotland?
88% want to Become an independent country
11% Remain part of the United Kingdom
1% Other
This looks promising most people I know who are pro-indpendence don't read the Scotsman.
Some really good posts tonight -and also far less labour attempted propaganda.I found Wendys speech -as taken off this website -to be very naive and superficial.I was never very sure about Donalds views on devolution/nationalism : I suspected from conversations with him that he had some sense of anticipation that we would move to the current position in Scotland with a very strong nationalist groundswell.He was well scared of Calton Hill ...the rest is history
29, do you mean self-gain, like Unionist (especially Labour) politicians??
and the SNP needed to choose which small independent country it wanted to emulate. Why think SMALL???? Emulate the US AFTER ALL SCOTS HAVE BEEN RUNNING AMERICA SINCE DAY 1
#Aye, what with MacWashington, MacJefferson, MacLincoln, MacRoosevelt, MacEisenhower, MacReagan, MacBush mark 1, MacBush mark 2 ...
THElabour values, Adam Ingram last week tried to frighten the scottish public regard,s war ship building program on clydeside. that jobs would be lost if scotland gained independence. I dont think so as these decision,s would be dealt with inthere own merrit I remember last year when the scottish executive awarded 2, car ferries to Polish ship yard,s to be built for CAL MAC. during the time that our gourock yard employing 500 men were short of order,s and they say labour is helping scottish people and bussinesses, I am pretty sure an S.N.P. government would never aloud that to happen. I also beleave that our ship yard,s are adaptable. and could build kind of vessel required war ship,s or merchant. This was another scaremongering tactic designed to deter the electorate again away from the nationalist cause. SORRY Mr Ingram it is not working you and the other parcel of rogues are a disgrace to our wonderful nation, and our country dosnt deserve you lot. yOU AND YOUR CRONNIES HAVE BEEN FOUND OUT, in more way,s than one. you are all so plausable you even think you are all above the law. All you ivory tower,s are crumbling round about you. I.E.the MET interesting day,s ahead.
Independence now!!!!!!!
Do not allow the English owned newspapers to change your mind!
As the election get closer just watch the press come in harder with scare stories and ridiculous reasons as to how devestating Independence would be.
Be strong and ignore such articles especially from the Scotsman/S oS!!!
Please advise me. I have run through the top stories in the Scotsman today but see no mention of the votes cast in the debate between Alexander and Sturgeon. If the debate was so important to stage why not comment on the result of the voting patterns? Perhaps some of the comments attributed to the Scotsman Editorial might be true. Just a thought! Isn't it true that a Sturgeon delivers a very prized and desireable product? Just a thought!
11 PATHARRISAre you still there or did your parachute fail to open as you plunged to earth in flames.
34 LAIRD.Dead right. Ingram is a flute playing orange bigot and well known bully. When ever he is allowed to speak on Radio or TV he ends up shouting and spluttering he is as articulate as a brain damaged ape. When he is asked a question that puts him on the spot, you know he is struggling because he explodes with,"LOOK," what an arse. He was not even a decent shop steward. Because of Muppet's like him and the painfully arrogant Hoon, the Army is so under strength that they will soon be taking pensioners on, if they raise the age limits any more. They and Browne have been an unmitigated disaster for the forces. Over promoted balloons.
A good night for Nicola by all accounts. And yes, the wording on the poll at the end of the show was worded a little confusingly. However it states "a little fewer than two thirds voted for Independence", now if they asked 100 people that works out at hmmmm let me think, oh yes that's right a little fewer than 66.6 people, now if we substract the 3 "dont knows" from the remainder, that leaves, oh now let me think for a moment, yep that's right 30.4 against Independence, so that looks to me like more than 2 to 1 in favour of Independence. Nice try Scotsman, you are looking a little more pathetic today than the normal.
