Get lostAM2

:-)

"Scotland on Sunday has obtained a confidential briefing paper written by the council's education director, Margaret Doran, which reveals Glasgow would have to build an extra 186 classrooms and hire 397 more teachers to meet the SNP pledge."
Edinburgh is unlikely to have that problem. What is the cumulative number of classrooms in the schools they want to close?
More importantly, What are our children, who are Scotlands future, worth? What pricetag are we to put on THEIR futures.
Priorities..................

"This education authority does not believe that reducing class sizes significantly is going to have any impact on increasing literacy and numeracy."

Well that kinda puts Nu-Labours Education! Education! Education! sound bite where it belongs.

AM2,

I've been reading your posts for some time now and I've come to the conclusion... it hasn't been easy, and do please correct me if I'm wrong, .... but I think you are not an Alex Salmond Fan.

There... I've said it. You can have me moderated... do your worst.... but the truth must be known.

I think the least you can now do is to admit.... you would never give Alex a hug.

Purcell is clearly off his rocker.

Alex is right. Reducing class sizes does significantly improve the learning environment for children.

Everyone knows that, even the children themselves.

It's time the country started pulling together on this and a range of other issues too.

I for one am sick of this "ya boo, Alex has a red face nonsense."

As for Wendy Caterpillar, she should be encouraging the muppets on Glasgow City Council to co-operate with the Scottish Government for the sake of our children, rather than making it obvious that she hopes this scheme will fall on it's face.

Pathetic.

What about using all the empty Catholic schools. fill them up with the children. Make the schools non-denominational. to heck with the folks who won't go on a green bus or blue bus:)

#1Lindsey
I know the facts and figures plus the links he provides are hurtful, but some times the truth does hurt.
You could at least give him the courtesy of posting before you tell him to get lost

#5. AM2, Glasgow

Are you sufficiently stupid, to fail to see the end of term punchline.

Oh right, being a Unionist it is not conventional stupidity - Just blindness, which can be cured by the bitter pill of fiscal autonomy.

That is if Independence leaves too bad a taste in your mouth.

Calm down. calm down. AM2 The SNP is doing a good job and just watch this problem being solved. You are too quick off the mark AM2 to have any credibility. You almost give the appearance of being an employee of this once great newspaper.

#5 AM2
You need to reread your post. One too many, perhaps?
Anyone with the least sense understands the strategy of "choose your battles". I fear you are doomed to disappointment when you find that at the end of four years the majority of the manifesto will ahbe come to fruition.
Can you spell M-I-N-O-R-I-T-Y?
You were expecting instant gratification? Alex knows better. He's in it for the duration.

"Class war"????????WTF????????

Col. Blimp IV, post 6.

I was about to say similar.Even the most dim witted realise that by downsizing a class the teacher has less pupils requiring her/his attention, therefore more time can be alloted to individual pupils, particular to pupils who may require more individual attention in the teaching of the three R's..

Labour accounting makes sense,don't ye know.Aye right.
.

#9. doublescotch, U.S.A.

A friend of mine worked for a Construction Company who built a Inter-denominational School (two completely separate schools, sharing the same campus and some facilities), with different start/Finnish and meal times.

Shortly before the handover, the teachers toured the premises. They were aghast! some moron had balls-ed up the colour scheme. Protestant stairways had been painted lime-green and the Catholic ones were Orange with Blue railings.

The painters got quite a lot of overtime.

"So, they've backtracked on free bus travel for all schoolchildren."

No they haven't. They are on hold because the other parties want to spend half a billion pounds on trams instead. They say will bring it forward in the 4 year term.

If you are so keen on it why aren't you critcising the other parties for wasting money on trams?

"They've failed to publish two bills promised within their first 100 days (on criminal justice and student loans)."

Well they would have failed if they promised such a thing in the first place.

"They've completely messed up the forthcoming spending review"

Erm how have they messed up the Labour party's spending review?

"by counting on savings from cancelling Edinburgh transport projects which it never appeared at all likely would materialise."

So why aren't you critcising the other parties for wasting money on trams?

It's an odd priority for them to have over other issues don't you think?

"The council tax freeze looks increasingly unlikely."

According to who?

"And now this. Why were promises made that would be broken so quickly?"

So you want the SNP to implement it's policies.

Why are you therefore not attacking the three other parties for saying they will vote them down then?

It's a bit like Nicol Stephen's blundering that Ian Bell wrote about.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1671...

Just for a challenge AM2 tell me something you think the SNP has done that you like so readers can tell whether your arguments are based on reason or that you are just emotionally tied to another party.

Class sizes of 18 would be excellent and it would improve children's learning in my opinion.
The fact that Holyrood are advocating this is excellent news but without the funding to support it what are the councils to do.
If Holyrood legislate that it is to happen and do not fully fund it then where are the councils going to raise the money from.
If Holyrood is to fully fund it were are they going to get the money from.

#18 I know makes one sad really. I wish we could be coloured blind. although some bitter people have called me a fenian in my days in Scotland.I thank God for my parents who were not bigoted. and we had lots of mixed marriages in the family.It all works out as if it doesn't do harm hopefully it does alot of good.

"WENDY Alexander has declared she wants to crack down on "bloated" education authorities which she says are failing to ensure vital funds for schools get to the front line. "

Does this mean she will slap down Euan Aitken for reneging on his consultation about closing 22 schoold in Edinburgh?

"If Holyrood is to fully fund it were are they going to get the money from."

Ask the Labour, Tory and Lib Dem parties who seem kamikaze like in their willingness to waste over half a billion on trams.

#10 Walter,

Why?

Walter, AM2.

A question.

Trams..... or smaller class sizes throughout Scotland?

"Just for a challenge AM2 tell me something you think the SNP has done that you like so readers can tell whether your arguments are based on reason or that you are just emotionally tied to another party."

Ah I see. Drug tests.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1440...

And only 6 minutes after I asked.

Anyway I disagree. They insult my belief in civil liberties...

“The Department will also <prepare draft legislation>..."

"“We will also bring forward <proposals> for a Criminal Justice Bill..."

Neither of which is a published bill which is what you accused them of.

Therefore no broken promise.

There is no referendum bill as yet. As you said. It's draft legislation.

Oh and that wans't a penalty for Hearts today.

AM2

You not talking to me? :-(

Read your post 30.

Commendable.

But what about my wee question..#29... and it requires just such a short answer.

No cut'n'paste... or ought like that.

Trams? or Smaller classes?

Have a Laugh....

Sunday Telegraph reports that England cruised to a comfortable win at Wembley...

Whilst Scotland EDGED past Lithuania with a NARROW win !!!!!!

I kid you not.

3 - 1 (their goal being a dive for a penalty) so really... 3 - 0..... is a narrow win !!!

Petty?

Trams or lower class sizes? both.
The ball was already rolling on the trams before the election.
Why does the 600 mil keep coming up, that money was already allocated to the trams so any party that made spending promises should not have been counting that money in their figures.
It they did then they were lying when they said they could fund other areas if they were relying on that money as they did not have that money to spend in those areas.

walter,amtwa

Smaller class sizes or trident ?
Scotland can,t afford your union.

Saor Alba

Bollocks Walter.

The SNP Government and Prime Minister Salmond (just doing my bit for "Independence Creep") recognized the tram scheme for what it is.

An expensive, indulgent, and needless White Elephant.

A luxury for Edinburgh at the expense of the rest of Scotland.

Or in the context of our discussion...at the expense of Scottish school children.

The fact that the funds had been earmarked.... doesn't make it irreversible.

The fact that the previous administration thought it was a good idea did not oblige the new Government to carry it through at the expense of more pressing needs.

The unionist alliance at Holyrood, desperate to inflict ANY kind of defeat on the SNP Government for no better reason than Party Political self gratification ... has created the £600 million shortfall that is now forcing the Government to postpone much needed investment in schools and other areas of far greater need than Edinburghs shint, whimsical new tram system.

As I said before... I hope they loop the tram system round the closed Edinburgh schools.... then everyone riding said new trams will be left in no doubt whatsoever as to the true cost of this stupidity.

walter,amtwa

Smaller class sizes or the London Olympics
Scotland can,t afford your union

Saor Alba

#29 smaller classes. if we haven't the room two teachers in one class is better than doing nothing. what happened to all the young teachers who couldn't get a job after their first year. diffeence between paying them doel and employing them isn't that much after you deduct the tax and NI they pay.

walter,amtwa

Smaller class sizes or more McCrone style
theft of our monies
Scotland can,t afford your union

Saor Alba

#24

Good for Wendy. More of this required.

Buchanan

You really have a new iPhone ?

Yep I do have an IPhone it is the coolest toy ever.

#39 Lindsey
The SNP Government and Prime Minister Salmond

Prime minister is the title of the person in the position that holds the office of first lord of the treasury, Salmond does not hold that position.

A luxury for Edinburgh at the expense of the rest of Scotland.

If you do believe that why not partition Holyrood to reduce the money that is paid into the fund for the rest of Scotland from Edinburgh business taxes (£111 mil last year) and use that to fund the trams.

The fact that the funds had been earmarked.... doesn't make it irreversible.

The fact that the money had already been allocated means they should not have made promises to spend it elsewhere before they had put it before parliament to get it reversed.

The unionist alliance at Holyrood, desperate to inflict ANY kind of defeat on the SNP Government for no better reason than Party Political self gratification ... has created the £600 million shortfall that is now forcing the Government to postpone much needed investment in schools and other areas of far greater need than Edinburghs shint, whimsical new tram system.

Are you suggesting that the 79 MSP's who represent the majority of the Scottish people who knowing they had no intention of scrapping the trams and still voted for them should just sit back and allow a party with 47 seats who promised to scrap the trams do so.

Bollocks again Walter.

First of all, you do mean "First Lord of the Exchequer", dont you??? And there is NOTHING in writing anywhere that says the First Lord of the Exchequer may call himself Prime Minister let alone that the term Prime Minister will be exclusive to him..

There are "Prime Ministers" all over the World that dont hold the title of "First Lord of the Exchequer".
Do they care?

Secondly, Scots will decide for ourselves what we call our head of Government.

If you enjoy bending at the Knee to Westminster, be my guest, but some of us have balls! (not me, mind).

"Are you suggesting that the 79 MSP's who represent the majority of the Scottish people who knowing they had no intention of scrapping the trams and still voted for them should just sit back and allow a party with 47 seats who promised to scrap the trams do so."

Are you seriously suggesting that Edinburghs trams were in the minds of Sottish voters the length and breadth of Scotland when they cast their votes???

Do you seriously think the majority of Scottish voters support this madness???

Do you think 600 million should be spent on trams at this point in time?

Once again..... Trams or schools?

"Are you suggesting that the 79 MSP's who represent the majority of the Scottish people who knowing they had no intention of scrapping the trams and still voted for them should just sit back and allow a party with 47 seats who promised to scrap the trams do so."

The idea that all the other MSPs across Scotland were elected to spend 600 million on trams is laughable. Which is why the SNP is quite relaxed about their stupidity on the issue.

It wasn't an issue outside Edinburgh at the elction but by raising it nationally those parties are only advertisjng that fact to voters who will be wondering what they are playing at when there are more important local priorities for them. The SNP can't believe their luck that the others think that is the issue to force another election!

Anyway back to the original question. Trams or lower class sizes?

It's an either-or choice based on priorities not an offer of what dessert you would like.

Walter. Maybe you are from Edinburgh but try this question with people outside Edinburgh:

"What do you think of the Tories, Labour and LibDems insisting that half a billion pounds be spent on trams for Edinburgh?"

Haven't met one yet who thanks them for their political generosity.

In fact it works well in Edinburgh as well.

AM2
I've read your comments for the last few months, any person can critize but the person who comes up with bright ideas to help the change we need for Scotland are the true SCOTS, the SNP are trying so why not give them a chance instead of running them down continually, Labour has had years to make a difference but same old story, be a SCOT come up with bold ideas to make Scotland a great nation again, I for one will vote SNP as there trying to make that DIFFERNCE.

Give me a break Labour control education councils are no cooperating with the SNP and its their fault.
After 50 years of Labour and Tory misadministration we have a funding crises in our Schools as well as the NHS and this is news?
The only part of it thats news is the fact the SNP are being blamed for it by a Labour tabloid.

Stephen Purcell, Labour leader of Glasgow City Council,

That sentence alone should tell ye where the real problem lies.

More Labour failure and hypocrisy here. More cr@p journalism by the SoS.

The Labour manifesto committed the party to reduce class sizes in Scottish primary schools. The Labour party claimed that such action improves the education of childen.

The Labour party have conceded that pupils’ staying-on school decisions and their future earnings are higher for those who have been in small classes at primary school level.

The educational and economic arguements are clear. If you want your kids to do well at school and in their adult life then you are committed to reducing the size of classes at primary school level.

So what's the problem?

Whatever our new Scottish Government proposes is going to be opposed by Labour or Libdem-run local authorities. Why? Because they can. And they obviously won't work in tandem for the common good as long as the SNP are in power. Why? They've had their orders from Westminster. No co-operation under any circumstance. And it's Joe Public who will suffer for it! Petty or what?

I hope everyone remembers all of this (and how much worse it is going to get) when the next election rolls around). So much for Broon's idea of a "government of all the talents", SNP not required!

When the Labour/LibDem coailition failed to make it's own target of an average class size of 20 for English and Maths subjects in secondary schools in Feb 2007, David Drever, EIS and one of the union's representatives on the then Executive's working group on class sizes said, "the educational benefit for pupils of smaller classes was clear. One of our concerns is the lack of urgency I don't think that the (Labour/LibDem) Executive and the politicians are aware of how important this issue is in our schools today. You will travel a long way to find an education professional who doesn't think there's a benefit in smaller class sizes, so we get frustrated when people say, 'Yes, but will smaller classes make a difference?'"

Looks like the SoS didn't have far to travel in finding Stephen Purcell, Labour leader of Glasgow City Council, Marilyne MacLaren, the LibDem education leader on the Edinburgh council and Laurie Bidwell, Labour education convener in Dundee's council.

Just because Labour and the LibDems are incompetent when it comes to our kids education does not mean that others are.

18 to 1 would not give better education than 25 to1? So when would reducing numbers improve the education system? I think that 18 to 1 is a brilliant idea and of course it would make the education better.

Wendy Alexander, Scottish Labour's leader-in-waiting, said: "They are running into hot water.

Translation: They have ran into Labour controlled councils with instuctions to impede all policy by every means at their disposal.
Zero tolerance and cooperation remember its party first and last.

Could somebody inform me if when Fiona Hyslop made this commitment that she told the electorate how much it would cost in employing additional teaching, staff and safe classrooms.

On the face of it nobody sensible person would argue against smaller class size ... until they saw how much it would cost

Unfortunately this policy debacle is so typical of SNP policy …. Make a commitment to win an election and then blame everyone else when they can’t deliver.

Could someone let me know if they have started the improvements on the A9 that they promised to their supporters at the expense of the Tram (where they have little electoral support in Edinburgh)

54. Boy Wonder

If you want a government of all talent then you invite people who have talent....well that excludes the SNP

And anyway, AS wouldn't get invoved for the following reasons

- Its British (AS doesn't want to part of that thank you very much)

- Its at Westminster and than means AS would have to do something to earn his MP salary and might actually have to go there

59 Troll

'Could someone let me know if they have started the improvements on the A9 that they promised to their supporters at the expense of the Tram (where they have little electoral support in Edinburgh)'

The tram is going ahead because all of the other parties in the Parliament blocked the SNP proposal to scrap them so the funding will be wasted on this Labour inspired debacle so why dont you ask Wendy what happened to the funding?

60

Apparently it also excludes Labour MPs as well which is why many of them are complaining about this initiative from GB. Foot in mouth comes to mind with your posting.

# 60
'well that excludes the SNP'

Who did you vote for in the Scottish elections?

Which party has the talent ?

Who are they?

Don't take too long now...

The LibDems have commtted themselves to employ another 1000 teachers to reduce class sizes in Scotland. They obviously think that is affordable.

Likewise the Labour party made an election commitment to employ 2500 more teachers to reduce class sizes. Again like the LibDems they think that is affordable.

Both Labour and the LibDems have conceded that small class sizes improve the education of children and that the move to smaller class sizes is affordable.

So what is the problem?

61. Honest John (i've dropped the Jock as some of your fellow SNP supporter belive that JocK is racist!!!),

Well when you are a minority government what do you expect, when the majority of the electorate voted for parties that supported the tram. There is is no way you can bet your bribe to your supporter through

Yes the orginal Foot and Mouth was initially handled badly but they hadn't been a case like it over 40 years so the lessons learnt then had been forgotten. I hope you will praise the Uk Government for the way in which the latest crisis was handled in a professional manner with the outbreak calmly no matter how much the media tried to whip up panic.

As for Labour Mps being against the policy how many are complaining do you have the numbers

62. James,

Well living in England it a bit differcult to vote in a Scottish election I would have thought that even you could have worked that out!

As for talent, most political parties have talent apart for those with a very narrow political agenda such as UKIP, SNP, Moster Raving Looney, etc

64

actually the majority of voters didnae vote for anybody so in reality there is no democratic mandate for anybody so where does that leave yer theories regarding policy support?

As for Labour Mps being against the policy how many are complaining do you have the numbers

No this came from Labour party sources and was reported in the Telegraph, The Daily record, The Mail, and the Independent that I personally know of it may also have been reported in other papers but I cant say definatively. You know how these things work names and numbers are withheld to protect the innocent and to keep em from losing their jobs.

Like I said foot in mouth. Shame I presume youve got 2 feet and only 1 mouth.

1. How many of us embarrassed that that the leader of the biggest and possibly the least successful education authority (Glasgow) in Scotland doesn't know that reducing class sizes improves children's education.

Where is his evidence to support this position. Has he commissioned any himself? Has he read any from anywhere else? Or is it just something he knows because of his natural brilliance?

If a teacher ignored the facts and spouted what they just believed would SP employ them? (on the evidence of hos comments here perhaps he would, as long as thes ebeliefs were as ridiculous as his own on class sizes.

2. Am I wrong but did Glasgow not close schools and classrooms while it worshipped the great PPP god? If Councils had thought - or perhaps they did think and it is no accident that they are stuck with buildings which are too inflexible for the 21st Century - about the future and the coming reduction in class sizes they wouldn't be moaning now.

3. How bizarre in Edinburgh. The drive, even from the mischief makers (HH) in the last parliament, was to reduce class sizes. I know they sold out and went for averages to appease the Councils but come on how can Edinburgh increase class sizes when everybody (except perhaps SP) knows that they have to get smaller to improve results.

4. Clearly there is some guerilla action going on from (labour) councils to try and do by the backdoor what they couldn't do at the ballot box or in parliament.

5. A question for Wendy and her pal Hugh. If you honestly don't believe in reducing class sizes stand up and say that. Don't hide behind the bleating Councils with lame comments about hot water. Justify your position in public and be seen as the party that wants bigger classes and lose the elections because of it. Don't send you foot soldiers (councillors) to try and wreck by the backdoor I mentioned earlier.

65 Troll

Aye in your obvious sit on the fence no axe to grind objective no political view opinion of course.

The list of S.N.P Failed policies grow day by day. They are now Spinning worse than nu-Labour. The Unraveling of the 'Scottish Government' before our very eyes. Four years they will never last the course. No legislation to be brought forward as they would surely be voted down(As they do not have a Majority in the Scottish Parliament).

What a waste of space they are and a drain on taxpayers money..

69 Krazy Kat (How appropriate)

Failed policies? how can they be labeled failed policies when the complaint is they havent been implemented?
Why havent they been implemented?
Simple every party pledged before the election a manifesto and all manifestos were based on each party getting into power with a majority of seats in order to implement their manifesto promises.
Now as we know thanks to our election system we have a minority government ergo they cannot implement the manifesto promises based on having a majority government. As all parties would have been in the same boat under the same situation I fail to see what yer point is and where the critisism lies? or are you just party political and printing yer comments because of yer bias political lean?
or
Would you have made the same comments irrespective of which party had ended up in this position?

What we have here is bloated Labour councils and Labour councillors conceding that their own Labour party's plans to cut class sizes was just one big lie. There was never any intent to do so. Wendy Alexander's comment of, "They are running into hot water" concedes that very point.

66

It was also reported on the main news channels SKY BBC and ITV.

#65 Yes I had wondered if Darlington had drifted north of the border to give you such an insight into Scottish affairs, thus my question was somewhat tongue in cheek.

The second point you failed miserably to answer.
You could not even name one Party or Person with 'talent' to out manoevre the SNP.

If you were thinking of offering,I think you've failed the entrance exam.

Ching ching.

I've only read posts 1 -20 - Jesus what a pounding your getting AM2, again.

This boils down to a simple question for the unionists:-

Do you or do you not believe that smaller class sizes improve educational outcomes?

It's a yes or a no guys, no if's or buts - this about the future of the country. You either support a commonsense and practicle policy or you are raking political muck.

Of course I don't expect many of you to see it like this

AM2 -

Would you *really*, **really** like me to post links to all of Labour's education failures and broken promises on class sizes during 8 years in power???

oh, go on then - here you go -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4024671.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3795965.stm
http://news.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=517702007
http://news.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=3282006
http://news.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=946962006
http://news.scotsman.com/latest_uk.cfm?id=2013572005

I could go on and on and on through a whole 8 years of broken labour promises and failures to achieve targets.

Maybe AM2 you'd also like to publish the labour manifesto promise on class size (if they had one I cant be bothered looking) prior to the May elections.

In other words, if this is deemed a failure by the SNP, then at least be fair and detail where the previous administration also failed.

Your lack of balance in any post and rabid anti-SNP stance is what leads you to fail.

Honest Jock

I don't think Krazy has considered your valid points, he or she is just letting of a few rounds, in the same sort of style as hillbilly drunk on moonshine with a new shootin-arm taking pot shots at road signs, small mammals and beer bottles.

ie an uneducated waste of space

#76

Well done, shades of the great man himself having that list to hand!

Nivur mind the story. See yon yin, yon lassie in the picture - she's a fair cracker, yon yin. Yon's is guid-lookin a wumin is thur's ivur been in the Scoatsmin. Ah dinnae ken or care whit she his tae say - pit mi doon is be'en in tot'l agreement wi' hur.

The SNP have great plans.
Shame they don't have a working majority.
Oh well. You can't have everything.

Another Sunday - another anti-SNP story in Scotland on Sunday.

Quelle surprise!

Yawn.

Honest John or is he

How did you know I like to sing in a carefree jovial Manner (check the dictionary before you start lobbing insults)

I also never trust people who use the term honest in their name, it usually means that are not.

75

And all this came from information you personelly compliled from highly reliable sources within the council itself no doubt.
And its no just wishful thinking on your part eh?

it was always going to come to did schools have the rooms to make it work. forgetting all else this was always going to be the bottom line and anyone who saw the plans knew this to be the case.

82

And thats yer well thought out answer to my points eh?
Just as well yer typing and no talking while yer sucking on all they toes.

@87

?

probably your daftest contribution (and I use the term advisedly) to these forums.

You pick up on a *typo* to make what point exactly?

dinnae worry, yer lord and master will be along shortly and you can prostrate yourself at the feet of his posts as usual.

73. James

For a start I'm Scottish born and breed

Secondly with the internet and cable its easy to
keep up to date with what is happening back home

I would love to mention any of the SNP who have talent but not one has done anything yet without putting their foot in it or shown how little thought they have put into the policy. Its easy to grandstand but policy takes thought.

And as for talent how about the Scottish Prime Minister (that the second one in a row) but I suppose AS would rather be a big fish in a litle pond than a little fish in a big pond

Why do you finish with 'ching ching' are you humming when "I was a Student as Cadiz I played on my Spanish Guitar" I only ask because we sang this at school in Scotland and it finished with 'Ching Ching'

Or are you just mad?

87

Where ye daft enough to look?

92. W U Merchant

Good call and I walked right into that one

I apologise for my spelling but my typing skills are letting me down.

Perhaps in the heat of debate, before posting we should all do a spell check

Stevie G

It brings nothing to the debate to universally rubbish the opposition. There are talented people on all sides of politics and your unwillingness to recognise this firmly puts you into the box marked 'old skool'

You may be up-to-date with developments in Darlington but it is surely wasted on you.

Your fish analogy sums up how informed you are or rather aren't!

@90

dinnae gie me that rubbish...
you and I both know that to correct spelling as a means of insulting someone, in an online forum is simply stupid, infantile, and crassly non-productive in any debate.

and for your info, my former monicker "Fat Freddy's Cat" (yes I do know where apostrophes are supposed to be used) was moderated by your very own AM2 so cannot be used further.

I hope you've got plenty time to spare, because I just *know* you will have to be ultra-careful with your own contributions on this thread. Not that I think anyone would be stupid enough to point out your own spelling or grammar issues, but you will pour over your own contribution at least 3 times before hitting that 'post' button ---

Anyway, back on topic. Since you seem to have a fairly aloof set of educational standards, what do you make of al the previous Labour broken promises on education and class sizes?

Lindsey - I think you'll find there are "Prime Ministers" all over the world who don't hold the formal; title of Prime Minister. They are presidents of councils and Chancellors and all sorts. But not Prime Ministers. It doesn't stop people using the title, except in formal or quasi legal exchanges.

Secondly I think you mean First Lord of the Treasury (there are other junior Lords, hence and collectively they are the Lords Commissioners).

Thirdly and on the subject of the article, the new Government risks massive electoral fraud. the commitment simply cannot be delivered in the next 4 years. It's impossible, and they knew it to be so before the election.

Perhaps its a new thing that parties will go into elections promising they will do something, but secretly they have their fingers crossed behind their back, knowing it will take them 2 or 3 terms to get the job done.

Furthermore, teacher quality is what will improve educational outcomes, not class size. The research does show improvements for younger children, but there are barely detectable several years later. The exception is in deprived areas, where English and American research does indicate worthwhile gains.

So it is a VERY expensive way of achieving marginal improvement. It would be far better making sure that teacher development programmes are fully effective and teachers stay at the top of their professional game over their full career.

@92

celebrate?

where *exactly* have I shown 'celebration' at falling educational standards?

What does one expect from labour infested
glasgow sh**y counsil, they are doing what they do best, following orders FROM THEIR
INCOMPETANT , IGNORANT AND UNDERACHIEVING
LABOUR MSPs.
Stephen Purcell, Labour leader of Glasgow City Council, said: "We would have to build extensions to schools that don't have the capacity for that.

WHAT HE DOESNT SAY IS THAT HE HAS THE CAPACITY TO SELL OFF OUR SCHOOLS TO PRIVATE DEVELOPERS TO BUILD HOUSING AND MAKE VAST PROFITS FOR THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
Whilst ignoring our childrens education.

LIEING.
Purcell said before the election that " new businesses,schools and hospitals were springing up
all over glasgow. Labour wind bag me thinks.

#74 it's not a yes or no, how simplistic, it's a question of money, it's simply that the government is issuing costly edicts to local government without funding them, just like the last one did.

93

I am surprised ye didnae bring up the 'ye' as well so I will continue to type errors accidently on purpose ye ken just tae gie ye a chance to answer back seeing as yer obviously lost for argument.
As tae the argument of declining education standards my education was during the 60s and 70s so if you see a problem with my education standard then ye ken who's tae blame.
I could correct ma typos but I am a touch typist and just post fast and cant really be bothered going over it after words in too much detail so I let them slip through it doesnt detract from the argument so I dont see the problem.

"MINISTERS were on course to break a key election pledge last night after figures revealed the vast majority of schools are a long way off hitting targets on class-size limits.

The Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition vowed after the last Holyrood election in 2003 that maths and English classes in the first two years of secondary school would have a maximum of 20 pupils by September this year."

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=290042007

So, looks like an issue for all parties doesn't it?

March 6th 2003 - Scottish Government FM Question Time

Mr Swinney:
--------------

I get accused week after week of using selective statistics, yet the statistics that I use week after week are those of the present, discredited Executive. The report to which the First Minister referred says that, between 1998 and 2001, average performance in primary 7 reading dropped 10 per cent at level D. Performance went down during the first two years of the Administration.

I think the SNP are doing a wonderful job. In the last dozen posts they have flushed out of the rough a bevy of self loathing Scots whose only endeavour is to belittle themselves and their compatriots. What pleasure they get in this reflects their education. Scotland must be the only country on the planet where one is "taught" to think of your country as worthless. The SNP should gently guide the education establishment to have our children feel pride in Scotland and thereby foster self confidence.

We are all born equal! Are we now; most certainly not in Brown's UK New Labour utopia? His own background reveals the minute we are born the apparent inequality rears its ugly head and continues on its merry way until our final demise. Our fragile freedom and democracy was won by hard struggle and sacrifice from the most class ridden society on the planet; and dates back to feudalism. Children from an early age are taught religiously that we live in a *them and us society* and there is very little chance of them ever breaking out of it. When the SNP suggests giving the young from ordinary families a better chance in life by being taught in a civilised manner when commencing their education, we suddenly are told there is insufficient money available. This from a government who have squandered billions - not millions - off £s of tax -payers hard earned cash on useless projects such as the Dome and the present forthcoming Olympics fiasco and, not forgetting their five undeclared wars. Why shouldn't our children start life on the same footing as the children of the New Labour Champagne socialists children and those of their wealthy elite supporters and financial backers?
Watch Brown when appearing on TV footage in his now familiar stage managed arrangement for him to have a bevy off children there to hold their little hands and whisper something in their little ears; and in most cases, they are usually the children
from ethnic minority groups.
The man is as big an impostor as the infamous Blair and the sooner he joins Blair; the sooner the UK MIGHT, return to some form of normality.

I doubt that in all my state school days, I had any class size of less than 20 and was normally closer to 30. Friends who went to private school had the same and we all came out literate and got jobs.

Class sizes of 18 are a meaningless target used to give the impression that politicians are doing good. The SNP like most of them have no idea how to run a good school and assume an endless supply of quality teachers are waiting to take on all the extra classes they will create, and that taxes can be raised more to finance it all.

94

I have to agree with you that Labour sources are always dodgy so ye've got me on that point but the FACT remains the statement is valid and on public record. You have to troll the old newspaper clippings or go back on the Media Newsreals to get to them though but I believe somebody else on this blog will remember the story before long and verify it.
Yes I am sorry to say its all true.

Are you looking for a new second hand car by any chance?

Scotsman Feb 2007
------------------------

Executive in U-turn over maximum class size promise
A PLEDGE to cut Scottish class sizes to a maximum of 20 for S1 and S2 English and maths has been dropped.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=271012007

Looks like Labour/LibDem dropped on their own promise. Unfortunately, The Scotsman didnt quite give that failure the same column space.

#89 Yes, but a little madness helps.

You refer to 'Ring, ching, ching, Ring, ching ching, Ring out ye bells
Oh ring out ye bells, Oh ring out ye bells!
Ring ching ching, Ring ching ching, ring out ye bells,
As I play on my Spanish guitar. Ching, ching!'.

However my reference comes from the song 'Good-byee' by Bert Lee as in
'Au revoir, old thing, cheerio, ching-ching, nah-poo, toodle-oo, goodbye'.

Anyhoo

You know as well as I do that I'm referring to Holyrood not Westminster, and I'm still waiting for parties/Names. So I'll ask for a third time.

Regarding Westminster

Prime Minister Blair did all he could do to distance himself from being Scottish. At least you're not doing that yourself, yet.

Gordon Brown, I do have respect for the man, but he too is diluting his Scottishness to pander to the fruit-loops of the English right wing press.

Can you explain why this is neccessary to succeed in the UK?

#4 & 5, AM2.

The best is yet to come!

#105 - Fat Freddy - but the signs are the last lot's commitments on class sizes have been met, so your point was?

Quoting a press release or press coverage from 6 months before a commitment was supposed to be implemented doesn't prove a thing (other than before a thing happens, it hasn't happened, which is either profound or not depending on how bleary eyed you are this Sunday morning).

(My previous comments stand re effectiveness of across the board class size reductions - there are better uses for public money).

Found this one which begins as a piece on the SNP promise on class sizes but quickly deteriorates into an anti-scottish (racist AM2???) diatribe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

94 Stevie boy

Dae ye no remember the outcry fae Labour MPs when GB offered Paddy Ashdown a job on his future cabinet? well that was just one example of the outcry I was referring to and the fact that GB wanted professionals from all walks of life instead of sitting Labour MPs. In otherwords a Government of Talent. I bet there are a few posters on here that remember this if you dont.

Point proved to your satisfaction?

FF's C - think about your post for a second. The paper which is so often derided here for sloppy journalism prints a story and you swallow it hok line and sinker, without any analysis.

Setting an average class size within a school takes, in practice the same number of teachers as setting a single class size maximum.

Second, headteachers lobbied to say they could give better results if they could have, say, one class of 15 for kids who needed it, and one of 25 for kids who cold sail along happily.

So this wasn't resiling from a promise, it was enacting it sensibly.

Anyway, Fiona Hyslop has been promising similar pragmatism when it comes to class sizes of 18 (when the target is eventually met in 10 or 15 years time or whenever).

122

I did see post 83.

WU Merchant

wot an infantyle bawsbag u r mon

@126

Hey, I'm being fair on this point -

*all* parties have broken pledges on class sizes -
(and dont try and spin that the Labour/Libs did anything other than fail)...

If the SNP fail to produce on class size promises, who am I to stand and argue or spin that they haven't?

AM2's rabid hatred of the SNP prevents him from providing any sense of balance or perspective. I simply intend to provide that balance by giving examples of where previous scottish governments failed.

Can the Scottish government persuade the 32 Councils to freeze the Council Tax? It wil take a lot of money.

@115

Do you *really* believe that 'acceptance of a mistake' is 'celebration of that mistake'?

and you claim to believe in high educational standards!
oh my sides!

128

Yer no looking for anything yer just trolling now that yer redundant of all argument.

Actually, having done a bit of research a la 'AM2' stalking, I can see W U Merchant very, *very* rarely comments productively on *any* article...

His main duties it would appear are to post one-line attacks on others' contributions... usually hatefully, and obviously today on spelling (LOL).

#39
"The SNP Government and Prime Minister Salmond (just doing my bit for "Independence Creep")"

Don't forget First minister Brown and his British Executive.

FF'C - your intentions may be honourable, but you don't have the facts on your side. The Herald did a phone round of Councils last month and found that pretty much the commitments were being delivered.

BTW, I would never try to pretend everything that any party has promised has then been successfully delivered. Labour, Tory and Libs have all succeeded in some things and failed in others, as the SNP will do themselves.

I just haven't seen a case (or can't recall one where the party had a real sniff of power) when the party involved knew their promises were undeliverable within the lifetime of the Parliament, but worded their manifesto to make it look like it would happen.

It was a massive political con trick, and trust my words, we will not see the pledge delivered within the next 4 years. We may see some progress, but we will not see the pledge itself delivered, or even nearly delivered.

#70

no Miaow.....

Before I nip off to make a bacon roll and cup of tea I will ask you W U Merchant to revisit your entire contribution to this particular article.

Have a read and see if you *really* feel proud at what you have 'achieved'.

WU Merchant

I would find it fairly sad for people to check over their posts for spelling and grammar.

Surely what someone has to say is more important than how they say it?!

It seems like you are a nu-labour spin aficionado - all presentation, no substance it would seem.

it is all very well saying yes smaller class sizes are better yes they are but you need extra teachers
to teach the extra classes , galsgow needs a few hundred extra teachers. edinburgh has been trying to tecruit teachers to fill current posts for the last 6 months and cannot get any takers also unless the
parliament give local authorities the extra cash where is it to come from.
this is the reason for the 12 million pound over spend of childrens and families and education in Edinburgh the council was expected to fullfill government legislation with extra funding yes by all means have extra classes but where are the teachers to come from

Excellent work Hambo, I think you will find that GB is actually the First Minister of the Treasury, or something equally as ridiculous.

One rule for Westminister, another for SNP Governments

ask why glasgow cooncillors are handin over the building o schools to its own department at inflated prices......!!!

Glasgow City Council has no money! I live here and work for them, it is terrible. Granted no increase in council tax this year because of the election meant less money in the coffers, but it can't pay for everything! Even with Edinburgh's allocation of monies the shortfall is huge!

We have no money to provide basic services (well in Social Work anyway) unless the Executive give more money then they can't provide. Like SW Education is managed at local level and I agree it perhaps should be centrally controlled to avoid the situatuation that we have now; fragmented services with no common standard across the country. That would mean that Edinburgh had to cough up. Better still, take control and divy the money up. Problem here is that this would not be popular and any council tax hikes can at present easily be blamed on the local council for mismanagement of funds. What funds?

I have never been a fan of the Labour dominated council in Glasgow, and I am certainly not a Purcell fan, but that is what the people of this area voted for! Obviously not an SNP stronghold, so when they tell the truth they are branded as Anti-Alex, he isn't a god my tartan tory chums! The council is required to raise funds through council tax when the money from Edinburgh isn't enough. Tax hikes aren't popular. Are they?

What they suggest would place even more pressure on a council (like Edinburgh and I would assume, all of the 32.) that is attempting to cut costs. It would be a joy I'm sure to have smaller class sizes for teachers but there is a cost attached, perhaps road tolls could pay for it? Also the fact that many teachers lured into the profession with the promise of a job (although the holidays must count for something too, lol) find after their probationary year that there are none. In Glasgow there were 12 jobs offered. How would we fund those extra salaries? Council tax?

I don't have the answers, but it seems they fon't either, no sorry, they

am 2 is a nationalist who has decided to write stupid comments and go on the wind up on these pages so as make people see how stupid onionist minded people are. Any neutral or undecided person reading his comments will instantly become a nationalist out of shear disgust of the, and i use the term sparingly, man.Quite a clever strategy, wish i had thought of it.

143

Yep a fair point and to get the extra teachers potential candidates require motivation. Maybe if our public service workers were paid a decent wage we wouldnt have such a shortage in public service occupations which also applies to the NHS its been a problem forever and no Government wants to deal with it. It would involve a fundamental shift in Governing principles and cause ripples everywhere.
Our public service workers have been treated like shite since the dawn of time is it any wonder there are shortages?

it has to be either Hislop or Macaskill who will go first - but even with this incompetence i am still for McAskill ...

#146 bakula

Our share of the cost of invading Iraq could go some way to paying for this. Also stopping the money pouring into Afghanistan and trident would help. Forget oil, its not what our country is based on, it will provide a few benifits for the future, like it has for Norway, but we also need to plan for life without it. The best time to start is now, and the best place to start is the classroom as they are the future. The best way to do this is by making our classes smaller and better equipped. That is the vision of the SNP, it will be tough but it has to happen. The reason it is not that way now, especially in Glasgow, is because it was neglected by labour. Glasgow, as you quite rightly say, is a labour stronghold that was working under a labour administration, if things there are as you say, then who do you think is to blame.

The SNP pledge was: "to slash classes in the EARLY YEARS of primary school to 18 pupils".

This is a good and worthwhile pledge, and if anyone thinks that it could be implemented overnight (whether in the Scottish Executive or on here), they are a numpty.

However, in the debate on here no-one seems on here to be differentiating between those years and the whole of primary school (and even later). Comments such as #67; "How many of us embarrassed that that the leader of the biggest and possibly the least successful education authority (Glasgow) in Scotland doesn't know that reducing class sizes improves children's education.

"Where is his evidence to support this position. Has he commissioned any himself?"

I have read extensively in this field, and I am not aware of any academic research that shows that for anything other than the early years in primary school that reducing class sizes from their current levels may make a difference to the educational attainment of children.

Of course, I may have missed something, and am willing to be pointed in the right direction.

So:

(a) the pledge is good;
(b) a refusal by councils to implement a reduction for anything other than what was pledged is also good.

The SNP has the wrong approach. There is no merit in reducing all class sizes: class size is only one factor among many that determine the quality of schooling. Better by far to identify schools and neighbourhoods where children underperform in English and Maths. Then work out a strategy for dealing with each on a casse by case basis. These might include:
(a) removing the school from council control and transferring it to a university department of education or to Holyrood or to a parents' association, a voluntary group or whatever; (b) sacking incompetent teachers and replacing them with better ones; (c) performance related pay for teachers (it's daft to pay all teachers the same - teachers working in the toughest areas should be paid a lot more than those working in cushy middle class areas); (d) changing the length of the school day or term time to fit local needs; (e) sending in hit squads to sort the school out; (f) reintroduction of traditional teaching environment - bare walls, desks in rows etc.

am 2

Because the arguements against our cause usually have no substance. I agree that the union has some benifits, and even why some people are reluctant to see its end, but the comparison between blind support of a union that is obviously dead in the water against the vision of the bright future offered by independence (either within or outwith europe, whatever the people decide in a referendum) could only lead a straight thinking person to one conclusion. I also think that after independence the former countries, part provinces and pricipalities that made up the union could work together on areas of mutual interest and economic benifit, to the betterment of all.

@152

wound up? on a forum like this?
hehehehehe - do you think I am *new* to this kind of medium? do you seriously think anything you post has any effect on my mood or well-being?

hohoho - the only thing I detect is a newby wanabee troll scoring (and I'm being generous here) 1 out of 10 on the trollometer.

As for AM2 -
the best you can come up with is a retort on 'anti-snp'... what about a valid response concerning the previous governments broken promises? You post as if the SNP are the first to do so!

WU Merchant and AM2

Good spelling is not a substitute for the sheer intellectual paucity and banality of AM2's posts. They are representative of a sinister mainstream unionist approach, which resorts to either disparagement or scare-mongering in its attempts to promote the unionist cause.

I have never once - not once - heard AM2 say anything that I have not heard said by unionists a hundreds of times before. He is repeating arguments that have long since lost their credibility. He is nothing more than a desperado who is struggling to come to terms with the fact that Scotland is not the docile, sheep-like, infinitely grateful member of the union he thought it was.

As ever the NATs stand up for the professionals over the low paid

The SNP stand for the SNP.

Education is an area of policy where they can show the 'unionst london labour' how much better Scotland can be.

But what we get is the the usual pile of nonsense this time from hyslop - as per her 50% increase in nursery education, ppp, writing off student debt , yearly discipine stats, private schools being taken out of chariatble status etc .. all rubbish... she has no intention of doing any of it.... and the same is true of class sizes to 18. we know she wants to do it - don't they all. But she said she would do it.

Hyslop called teaching assistants 'nose wipers' - if she thinks that then she has the power to get rid of them. If PPP is so bad (she said she woudl end it) - she can stop it. If we need smaller calss sizes at 18 - do it. If she actually thinks private schools need to be taken out of charitable status (she said she would)- she can just do it. - but is is easier to still blame london and councils and parliament and...

I happen to have recently been to my local primary school's board meeting and their intake of Primary pupils this year is 56 spread amongst 3 teachers.

A sample of one admittedly, but there will be some Councils around Scotland who will find it relatively painless to implement a class size of 18 without.

Independent, 6 January 2005, extract reads ....

Small Primary Classes Fail to Improve Results, Study Finds.

Children who are taught in small primary school classes do no better than pupils educated in large groups, a Government-funded study has found. The three-year study concluded that eight to 10-year-olds in big classes were given less individual attention than pupils in small classes, but this made no difference to results. Pupils in the largest classes did better in English than children in small groups during the last year of primary school. The study, by academics at London University's Institute of Education, tracked the progress of more than 8,700 eight to 11-year-olds in more than 200 primary schools between 2002 and 2003. It followed an earlier study by the same team which found that small class sizes had little effect on younger pupils. However, it found that the very youngest children - four and five-year-olds - did better in small classes.

.... extract ends.

In other words class size in not an automatic route to improved performance. Mr Salmond misleads when he suggest, "All the research illustrates the fact that smaller class sizes is the key to lifelong achievement.... "

The "all" I am afraid is not true. Some favourable evidence relates to lifetime achievement but not school results. There is evidence that only 4 to 5-year-olds do better at school.

I fear we are being misled with a politically popular but not well founded view on the impact class size. Education Chiefs are therefore right to challenge SNP policy and prioritize spending as they see fit.

162

One of the major contributing factors of declining public service employment is performance related pay. Its one of the biggest spins the UK government has ever perpetrated. Its a controlling tool for management whereby workers who upset their immediate bosses in any shape or form get graded poorly and thus fail to qualify for pay increaces. Workers who kiss their bosses arse and toe the line will get the grade required for their pay increase.
This pay increace used to be the inflation measured increase all workers should have by entitlement.

Why do you think we dont have performance related pay for MPs?

As to your point of sacking incompetant teachers on the surface it sounds reasonable except the problem is there is nobody in the wings to replace them with which is why the incompetant teacher is there to start with.

The SNP hasnt got the wrong approach the UK government has had it for decades and the SNP are now having to deal with it.

What amazes me about unionists is how they are such wonderful experts on everything. I notice that they have suddenly developed an infinite knowledge and expertise on matters of education.

Should I not be over-awed by them?

Yes, I am, actually. I am over-awed by the extent of their arrogance and the extremism of their negativity towards the attempts of the Scottish government to improve our society where previous governments have so drastically failed.

If there is any grain of truth to this propagandist piece of nonsense that the Scotsman has churned up out of nowhere, it is to show that our councils are stagnant, incompetent, corrupt and rotten organisations who are being shown up for what they are by a dynamic government who are determined to make the country function as well as it should.

These councils claim they don't have the money to introduce the necessary changes. Well, there's a surpirse. It just gives you some idea of how the extortionate amount of council tax you pay gets spent on God only knows what.

Comments #167 & #168

One of the problems of being a minority Government is that you can't "Just Do It".

If the SNP plans to stop the spending on the Edinburgh Tram had been passed, then it would be so much easier to implement budget commitments.

However, the opposition parties don't want the SNP to be able to deliver and that is why it is not so easy to "Just Do It".

174

Winged Messenger, are you suggesting that we won't get a Council Tax freeze?

167

As ever the NATs stand up for the professionals over the low paid

???? They have been in power for a few months so how is this statement valid? how much thought did you manage to put into it then?
Have ye got any examples?

reading these posts confirms my view that scots loathe each other right or wrong?

AM2

Try offering me and original thought and I might listen.

As it is, you're just regurgitating your habitual banalities and anti-Scottish drivel.

#82 Nobody could ever accuse you of bling faith in the Union.
You are what is termed a 'stakeholder' in the Union.

I.e. bought and paid for.

#188 Jeezo - that should have been #180 AM2 - still hungover from the fitba!

#180

Your support for the union is based on a fanatical worship of the Great God Britain.

Nothing more or less than that.

You've carefully weighed nothing. If you had, you'd recognise and admit the fact that a large and growing part of the Scottish population have a strong desire for independence.

You wrangle figures and polls in all sorts of imaginary ways to try and prove that only a fraction of Scots support independence. We know this is not true. The fact that our government is pro-independence (not unionist) proves that.

You are utterly incapable of weighing up anything with any degree of objectivity. This is a measure of your fanaticism.

The time you spend and lengths you go to to flood these threads with your repetitious guff is a further indication of your fanaticism.

I have to hand it to you that you're way ahead of anyone else on that score. But when it comes to intelligent debate, your a waste of time.

Why are we surprised?
Smaller classes makes more sense as it means more efficient teaching. Everyone knows that (whether they are willing to admit it or not.)
So if you can't fault the policy (logically) complain about the cost.
As someone else says above, the doctrine of putting Scotland and it's people (children) first doesn't come easy to some people so they will have to be dragged screaming and yelling into the New Scotland by the rest of us. We have the time, the will and the leadership to do that.

Good day my Scotish freinds. Bad result for mighty Ukraineski. Tatanashvili he bad man scor last minut

185 AM2

All this grammer and spelling pish wouldnt have anything to do with you being caught out posting as Maltese Falcon the other day would it?
funnily enough that came up then as well.

#173 Honest Jock
I partly agree with one of your points. I don't think MPs - or MSPs- should be paid at all. MPs are supposed to be representatives, a broad cross section of society, not professional politicians. They should simply be given expenses for loss of earnings when on parliamentary business, expenses that relate to their proper employment.
As to the rest of your points, I'll stick to mine. The way to raise performance in early years is to identify which schools do not do well and sort them out on a case by case basis. The 'solution' will almost certainly involve the replacement of at least some teachers. It may also involve taking the school away from district council control or providing literacy and numeracy classes for parents.
#175 Yes We Can. Ending the trams and hiring more teachers is not a good idea. I wasn't in favour of the trams, but since we are now committed to them I hope they turn out to be successful. Edinburgh is the motor of the Scottish economy: the motor is being clogged by congestion so something has to be done. If the motor ceases up there won't be any money for anything.

#172 Dave J
" class size is not an automatic route to improved performance."
I daresay it would depend upon the quality and dedication of the teachers. I DO agree with the premise that smaller class sizes would allow slower children to receive additional attention .
I'm waiting for Methalions to weigh in on this subject as he has indicated he is a retired teacher
I'm a little disappointed that no one else has noted the inflammatory phrase in the headline - "sparks class war", but then again, what else could one expect of Eddie Barnes.

194

Dukie, what point are you trying to make?

#190 WUM - Fantastic result - wish I was going to the old cathedral 'Le Parc des Princes' on Weds, was there in '89 when Roy Aitken was like a traffic cop waving the French midfield through!

A different result hopefully this time!

For those unionist experts of everything.

Smaller class sizes is an absolute given in terms of enabling a teacher to teach properly. With higher class sizes, there's more commotion proportionate to the amount of kids. Not only that, but it means that each kid gets less personal attention than they would when a class is bigger.

The more commotion, the less time is actually spent on teaching and the more time spent on trying to control the class rather than teach the class.

This is so obvious that only an idiot needs a sicentific study to prove it for them.

The aim of reducing class sizes on any level of eduction is a vital requirement of the education process. This is especially true when kids are at their youngest and more receptive to the influence of what the grown up people tell them.

It's really as simple as that. And if this is part of what Salmond is trying to do, which it is, he should get the support of everyone regardless of his political station.

What a stupid story for the Scotsman to print. The attempts to undermine the SNP with propaganda like this just get stupider and stupider.

It seems to be a trend among unionists, whether we speak of Foulkes or the Scotsman or AM2, that the more they try and damage the SNP the more they make themselves look like demented lemmings leaping off a cliff. This is really a suitable metaphor, because there is nowhere left for unionism to turn except towards its self-destruction.

Wis Edinburgh Cooncil no gaun tae shut doon 22 schuils in the city cause they didnae hae enough bairns tae fill them?

#201 Methalions, Your timing is impeccable!

From another page:

"WENDY Alexander has declared she wants to crack down on "bloated" education authorities which she says are failing to ensure vital funds for schools get to the front line. "

And on this page:

"Glasgow and Edinburgh education chiefs have told Scotland on Sunday they cannot implement an SNP pledge to slash classes in the early years of primary school to 18 pupils because they will cost too much,"

Are these two stories unrelated? New/Scottish Labour caused these problems in the last admin, but the Education "thiefs" will continue to rob our kids of their right to a good education.

Yet in the above story, Wendy criticises the SNP! Ye couldnae mak it up.

#205 MtnKat

Methalions does like a grand entrance.

G'Day Methalions. Read several of your final postings of yesterday when I got back to my apartment at 4 a.m. this morning. Methinks that you probably drunk too much of the fruit of the grapevine whilst making the said postings.

203 Winged Messenger - the problem is not that small class sizes should reduce. Some should and doing so will bring benefit to us all. But reducing all class sizes is a very expensive way of bringing marginal benefit which does not anyway last.

The main benefit of reducing class sizes across the board is to make the teacher's life more comfortable. that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it should be presented as such, not an educational improvement.

Secondly, and more importantly, some people voted SNP because of the class size promise, yet anyone who knows anything about the subject knows it cannot be delivered in the next 4 years.

So there was electoral deception being practiced (and in case anyone says the other parties do it as well, so that makes it ok, we as a people ought to despise all electoral deception, whenever it happens).

AM2
You constantly say that you support the Union. Fair enough. However I have never seen a post from you which tells us why the Union should be supported.

Scotland have not thrived in comparison to any other small European country.
We have Nuclear targets built in the heartland of our country. No other small E. country has this
We have nuclear power plants when we are energy sufficient, no other small E country has this.
We constantly lose our young men in futile wars, no other smal E. country has this.
We suffer from lopsided UK polices which suck the brains, innitiatives and resources down to the S.E.
We are/were oil rich unlike most comparable small E countries, yet this is not reflected in our economy, our manufacturing base, our employment levels, our levels of health at all ages, our infrastructure, our media, our Arts funding or virtually any other facet of our economy compared to a similarly sized oil rich country.
In the face of these facts, most sensible individuals would be willing to give an alternative system of Government (one that puts the hopes, aspirations and wellbeing of its countrymen first) a chance to prove itself, yet all we ever get from you is infantile and purile attempts to pick holes in your own elected governments attempts to make things better for us as a nation.
All this in the light of present and past Union Government's waste of resources, warmongering, corruption, greed, moral bankruptcy, fiscal ineptitude and rank ability not only to run the UK as a whole but our own country in particular.

You should be utterly ashamed of your blind support to such criminal mismanagement.

#207 Maltese Falcon
Will it take a standing ovation to bring him back on stage with an opinion today, do you think?

209

And ye never will because he doesnt support the Union at least not enough to debate it.
He doesnt post in support or against anything he just posts to stir the pot.

#212 MtnKat

He's probably still p****d and has gone back to bed.

211

Thanks for that I wasnt 100% sure until now.

Hit the recalcitrent Councils where it will hurt them - in the pockets! Apply deductions in council tax support payments for Councils which fail (within a reasonable period) to reduce class sizes to the intended maximum of 18 pupils.

Methalions et al

Saw a t-shirt in a bar last night with the slogan "the liver is evil and needs to be destroyed" Just what I needed to know. Cheers.

#211 AM2

Ignore the wee (in every sense) man; he is of little significance.

217

Why yer a troll and its off subject read the top of the thread and try to stay on story for a change.

#208

The more confortable the teacher is, the better they will teach. In fact, you're highlighting another reason for why we should always seek to have the smallest class sizes possible - for the teacher's sake, to make what I believe is one of the most difficult jobs possible that little bit easier. If it's easier, it will be all the more possible for a teacher to teach effectively.

As for all the stuff about electoral promises. It seems to me that the SNP are trying to push through this promise. Isn't what this story above is about? If they're prevented from doing it because of rotten and corrupt councils, whose fault is that?

It's clear that the SNP have set themselves such a wide variety and amount of targets that it will prove impossible for them to reach some of them. Still, they're trying with more effort than any government I can remember (berring Thatcher's for all the wrong reasons)

So they will fail to meet some of their elecotral objectives, but not for the want of trying. For me, that's a step in the right direction compared to the moribund administrations of previous Labour governments or Tory/Labour governments in Britain.

And let's not forget that everyone who does not support the SNP will be doing their damndest to throw obstacles in their path - Labour councils, newspapers, and the like.

221 Whoever????

Like I asked ye before who do you think is left for you to convince or to post to? yer cards well and trully marked not by me but by yersel.
You are your own worse enemy nae point trying to rubbish me and then continue on in yer same manner.
I have another description of your posts I havent used yet Pointless!

223

Winged Messenger, are you a teacher?

How will the SNP achieve this?
Usual answer. English taxpayers' money.
Now have your independence. B*gger off and stop annoying the English.

#221 Intellectually challenged wee man Jock

And, exactly, what is the point of your posts. Although I don't necessarily agree with all that AM2 writes, at least he forwards credible and coherent arguements which he supports with evidence. What do you do?

#227 Methalions

Jesus man, you are still p****d; go and have a siesta.

#203 Winged Messenger
You are right in asserting that commotion in the classroom upsets education. But there are other ways of addressing this such as (a) more men teachers rather than more teachers of either sex; (b) putting children into desks in rows rather than round tables; (c) removing brightly coloured decorations that encurage the children to see classrooms and schools as glorified play rooms; (d) providing all meals in school with a corrrect balance of proteins, carboydrates etc and no sugary drunks or other junk.
A good strategy for improving education for 5 and 6 year olds would be to identify the weakes schools and start introducing the above.

#203 Winged Messenger

"The aim of reducing class sizes on any level of eduction is a vital requirement of the education process."

If the S.N.P achieve full political hegemony in Scotland with Supporters such as yourself. The social pressure will be so intolerable towards any

pro-union Scots. many will feel they have no option than to leave Scottish soil to find peace for themselves and their families.

All the S.N.P have to do is convince as many teachers as possible to stay.
and by the natural reduction of the population the S.N.P will be able to meet their political commitments.

And in the process make you a very happy Nationalist.

#231 Methalions

So in reality, there is not much more left to be said so to speak!

Those councils who don't want to reduce class sizes can be prioritised accordingly, and funds directed towards those with the interests of their pupils before that of their elected officials given the resources to complete the task.

Given the much hyped falling school rolls, I'd imagine that in many areas all that's actually required is permission to adjust the pupil teacher ratio rather than paying off teachers as classes empty anyway.

Councillors who are interested only in trying to give the government a bloody nose, at the expense of pupils and parents, can explain their position come the date appointed for their re-election.

In the days when class sizes were around 40 pupils, the teachers had the backing of parents,they also had the tawse!!!!
Pupil behaviour nowadays is influenced by the yob culture.Discipline in the classroom is more than difficult and parents back their offspring against the school.
Gone are the days when having been belted or detained at school for some outrage,you got another one when you got home!!!
Ah!Halcyon days indeed.!
Teachers now have diverse ability pupils thanks to the policy of inclusion. Smaller class sizes are a must.
Classroom assistants can be invaluable,but,as they would tell you,they are not teachers.
It is sad to hear that those who trumpetted 'Education,education,education' should now be shouting,'Cost, cost, cost,trams, trams'!

#235 Methalions

Glad to hear that everything is well with you.

#203 Winged Messenger

"For those unionist experts of everything.

"Smaller class sizes is an absolute given in terms of enabling a teacher to teach properly. With higher class sizes, there's more commotion proportionate to the amount of kids. Not only that, but it means that each kid gets less personal attention than they would when a class is bigger.

"The more commotion, the less time is actually spent on teaching and the more time spent on trying to control the class rather than teach the class.

"This is so obvious that only an idiot needs a sicentific study to prove it for them."

Your arrogance knows absolutely no bounds. This is NOT an absolute given, and for you to condemn anyone who DARES to think differently from you as Unionists shows the intellectual vacuum in which you exist.

Who made you Professor of Education? You clearly demonstrate that you know sod all about the subject. What we are talking about here is the educational attainment of children, and while it is true that smaller class sizes do benefit those children in the early years of primary school (which is what the SNP has promised), it is not the case for older children. Money can be spent in other ways to more effect. Which is why Fiona Hyslop, who is one of the brighter SNP members of the Scottish Executive, has not promised anything more than that on class sizes. Why are you arguing against SNP policy?

As I asked originally, provide me with some academic research that demonstrates otherwise.

Easy way to make more funds available?
Reduce the layers of "advisers, pastoral officers, policy advisers, depute directorial staff" etc.
Stop and think before introducing " quick fix-it" strategies to improve results, usually promoted with someone somewhere in the promotion benefiting commercially.

@241

and its *no coincidence* that moderation has taken place not long after AM2 makes his morning appearance on this thread.

AM2, moderation and you follow each other like a bad smell.

However, I am honest and have myself reported more than one of W U Merchants non-contributory posts on spelling. Not sure if any have been removed.

#228

Ha, ha, ha, ha. You can't even distinguish who you are talking to now. You are nothing more than a demented basket-case are you not wee man. Now repeat after me; AM2 is AM2 and Maltese Falcon is Maltese Falcon. As this debate is about education write it 100 times in the hope that it sinks into your sponge like brain.

On this thread, I particularly liked W U Merchant and AM2's exchange at or about posts 160 and 163 -

Classic examples of pomposity and arrogance through use of frivolous and old-fashioned florid language as some means of exuding intellectual superority - on an informal internet forum no less!!

Roll-up Roll-up folks, us daft Scots dinnae understand english and need these 'better' edyoocated folks to tell us how to run our country.

Sheesh, breathtaking but sure to drive more people to the nationalist cause.

246

FFC, they got to you, didn't they? Calm ...

Hello Fat Freddys Cat. You had better be careful. This afternoon I'm going to visit my Auntie Jean at Coupar Angus. Auntie Jean as sixteen cats. The neighbours complained to the police. The police sent for SSPCA. (Auntie Jean - 85 plus - says it was the PDSA like on the television, but I'm sure it was the SSPCA. She gets confused.) Anyway they turned up and said the cats were fine but some of them needed fixing. So they took them away for a couple of days and fixed them. You had better be careful or AM2 or W U Merchant will set the SSPCA on you.

245 AM2

I see yer spelling and grammer has improved since yesterday did ye forget that under this guise yer supposed tae make mistakes?

Methalions - afternoon to you. Interesting points on how much it costs to educate a child. the price is approximatrly £7k per child per annum for day school and £20k each for boarding school.

Luckily, house in Ecosse now sold, move organised and we are away - after a couple of days at the grouse and parteridges of course.

Just unsubscribed from this high brow forum as leaving Scotland I don't really care what happens to the land of my birth (and my 3 kids for that matter). Today's debate has set new standards with very little to do with the fact that the SNP's education plans don't seem to add up straight to the "Who is AM2?" . No wonder the Scots are seen as narrow minded, parochial plebs around the globe.

Cheers. Oh, last one left switch the lights off.

196

No totally disagree Education and all it entails should be left in the hands of professionals not politicians or else we end up with a kind of national indocrination. Schools and other educational institutues should be allowed to employ other professionals such as accountants to help run the finance side and leave the teaching to the teachers.
Give Schools and the rest government grants but not conditional on curriculum. And let them try and make funds on their own initiative maybe by taking in foreign students and primary and secondary level as well. The funds for these pupils can come from the Governments of the countries the students come from. The countries will then benefit from a higher educated work force at home.
Its just an idea.
Most of the problems stem with the Governments paranoia of controlling our education. They want to dictate the curriculum and control to a certain extent the young minds of our youth.
An glaring example of this is Scottish History taught with a Unionist spin.

#253 CJO

Cheers. Oh, last one left switch the lights off.

The last one remaining will be Honest Jock who, because he is so stupid, will not realise that everyone else has left. And, if he did realise that everyone had gone, he has neither the skills, education or commonsense to know how to switch the lights off. God save Scotland from the likes of Honest Jock and his ilk.

250 AM2

That's the type of mood Nationalist are attempting to foster amongst the ordinary non-political Scots.

to make people uncomfortable in showing any pro-union sympathy a subtle but no less dangerous approach to influencing the political Agenda.
Than outright illegal Racist Taunts towards opponent's of their political view point.

Smaller class sizes do work. For attainment and for behaviour.

We have lots of empty schools. Werent Edinburgh just trying to close some? And i agree with post 4 - close Catholic schools and integrate the pupils into a modern non-denominational system.

175

as ever you Nats are so busy gushing hero worship you delude yourselves.

Every poltical party in Scotand has been in a minority. At least the Libs and Labs sat down and hammered out an agreement, and published it, so we could measure them. Something the Nats conveniently managed to avoid.

And as to your excuses for them - They can do almost all what i said without ever going to the parliament. So minority is irrelevent

You do not need the parliament to scrap PPP - in government you can just do it,
You do not need parliament to lower class sizes - in government you can just do it,
You do need parliament to increase nurseery education by 50% - in government -you can just do it,
You do not need parliament to give home buyers £2k of tax payers money - in government you can just do it,
You do not need parliament to write off all student debt to help the middle classes - you can just do it

Infact the only thing i have said which needs to go near palriament is taking private schools out of teh charity act... but then she has already said she won't

... and you brought up the Trams - they didn't have to listen to parliament on the trams - but conveneintly they did. (if you don't ebelive me Swinney and Salmond made it absolutely clearthey don't so from your point of you that must mean it was right!?)

and the green day nuclear power stuff this week was - in short - 'no change their then'.

We were promised 'Fresh thinking', 'winds of change' and 'New Politics' - i never beleived them but you must be dissapointed?

Have you lot really waited all these decades for power - for this...

The Scotsman used to be a quality newspaper with education at the top of its agenda. Alas! Gone are those carefree happy forward thinking days judging by their present days editorial policy.

My youngest son and heir has enjoyed the full benefit from one of the most unusual class sizes in Britain SIX ! He was educated at Tollcross Primary through the first Gaelic Medium School class in Edinburgh and has gone on from there through Secondary education at James Gillespie's High School, to university where he gained his Honours Degree in June 2006. He is now ready for the next step in his educational program.

After the SNP's historic victory it was predictable that the Unionists would pull out every stop they can muster to try to thawrt the postive strategic
policies for Scotland's present and future well being.

I will now predict once again. That the Unionist Sour Grape Brigade, haven't an iceblocks chance in hell of preventing the only Scottish Political Party that has all of Scotland's interests at heart. The others will have to fall into line if they want to survive in the new Scottish political field that we are witnessing daily. Cooperation is their only hope! And why not ?

Mac Mhic Raonuiill

#257 Methalions
There are probably 101 reasons for white children doing better than black children in Tennessee. I'll bet that generally speaking the white children have more stable families and better schools.
In Scotland too primary schools in 'good' areas do much better than in 'bad' ones. The need is not to set general targets about class sizes. This will not differentiate between good schools and bad The need is to identify schools and nighbourhoods where learning is weak and do something about it on a case by case basis. Often the first thing to do will be to remove the school from the hands of the district council and transfer it to Holyrood or a PTA or a voluntary group. The district council, especially the education department, is often part of the problem. It is seldom part of the solution.

#257

That study related to the early years of school, and is supported by other studies. In my view it is correct, and is driving SNP policy, which in my view is also correct.

Earlier in this thread you implied that you expected to see class sizes reduced for all kids? Are you going back on that and accepting it should only be for the early years of primary, per SNP policy?

#254 Honest Jock
#264 Publius

Your policy proposals seem sensible. They also seem very similar to the education policy of the Scottish Tories.

I can understand why the SNP want smaller classes, but its not practical. As a novice political party they have much to learn, but at least they have recognised the problem in this instance, which is good.

Schooling is not difficult to manage, its easy. First you introduce rules and regulations which must be adhered to at all times. Punctuality, respect for teachers and fellow pupils, smart clothing, polished shoes, neat and tidy hairstyles,no jewellery, no cell phones and no make-up. School is for learning!

Introduce sports, make it compulsory for puplis to sign up to one indoor and one outdoor sport. Forget those who suggest that some pupils dont like sport. Most kids dont like sitting in class, but it needs to be done. Forget those who tell you that some kids cant run, kick a ball, or swing a bat, therefore, you cant force them to do sport, because the bottom line is that some kids cant do geography or mathematics, but school is still compulsory.

Drop the 1 hour lunch, or dinner time. Start school at 8h00 in winter and summer. Have two 25 minute breaks and finish at 2h45. Then get them on the sports fields or in the gymnasiums, but work with them, interact with them and make them aware of the importance of education, as well as sport. Make them aware of the importance in good self appearance and self respect. Make them aware that they are at school to learn and take part in sport, failure to comply will result in serious consequence.

Get the school competitons going. In South Africa our kids play cricket, rugby, water polo, tennis, football, swimming, athletics, hockey, chess, badminton and various other sports against other schools. Its a league system with promotion and relegation, the schools get behind their team, there is cheerleaders, songs and a real sense of togetherness. Off-course this system does not erradicate bad behaviour, there will always be those who misbehave, but it does assist in offering the majority a better school

Kobi

You say:

"What we are talking about here is the educational attainment of children, and while it is true that smaller class sizes do benefit those children in the early years of primary school (which is what the SNP has promised)"

Exactly. That's what I said above, that it is especially the case that smaller class sizes are necessary for younger children. We agree.

Do excuse the tone of my posts if they offend you, if you happne to be a unionist. They are actually directed at the obnoxious crew of insufferable unionists, such as Maltese Falcon, Rulesbutnotruelers, Bandoonthedoor, AM2 and a few other usual suspects who tend to post attack after attack on the SNP or on the argument for independence in general which, i think, merits the kind of equally obnoxious response it gets from me.

About class sizes in general. How do I know? Because I have been a teacher. I know from experience that smaller class sizes are of more benefit to pupils or students, as well as for teachers, and I don't need a scientific study to prove it to me.

If you look at Oxford and Cambridge Universities, whose standards are the highest, you will note (I think you'll probably know) that they are often able to provide one to one tutorials for students as a part of their policy for providing the standards they do. I don't think they would do this if it wasn't necessary. Nor would universities put limits on class sizes or seek to limit the sizes of tutorials if it wasn't necessary for acheiving the best possible standards.

I was merely making the point that smaller classes are better on any level, which they are, but also pointing out that this is especially true at a younger level. As you rightly say, the SNP are concentrating on improving class sizes at a younger level.

I tend to agree with everything you've written above except for the doubt you cast over whether reducing class levels on any level is worthwhile. I know for a fact

#258 AM2

I would say that my view would reasonable reflect mainstream civic nationalism.

Whilst I'd welcome your staying to contribute to the national rebuilding project, post independence, as I feel you would have a positive contribution to make, you are under no obligation to do so.

Far from telling you to 'f'off, it's an invitation to be involved in a productive way, as an equal.

Of course you will argue the status quo, because you have to.....but what if?

266

Not likely I am not proposing privatisation, Schools and Universities should still be Government funded but still allowed to make extra cash where they can.
The difference is I am sincere and care what happens the Tories dont they want to turn our education system into a business venture for profit so they can tax it.

Language is important in the new "inclusive" Scotland. If in the cooments quoted at #250 you replace the word Unionist with the word Jew, and replace Scotland with Germany, you will see how insensitive and tasteless these comments are, and how redolent they are of the rantings of Julius Streicher and his ilk.

Now I do not think for a minute that the SNP is in any way like this, and hopefully the morons who made these comments quoted at #250 have nothing to do with them or any other party (I am trust that AM2 has quoted them correctly and is not on a wind-up).

All they are doing is adding grist to the mill of that buffoon Foulkes (who doesn't actually want to be in the parliament, and was never meant to get elected in the first place).

#206 and others

Yes, this article and the one here

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1440432007

would seem to be at odds with each other.

This is perfectly amateurish stuff by the Scotsman. Laughable in fact. I'm laughing.

#270

Crikey, even I would welcome AM2 to remain within an independent Scotland and contribute to making it work or just get on with living his life however he chose to.

267 Media 1

The perfect solution to educate artificial intelligent androids. When we invent and mass produce them you should remind us all again. Keep up the good work it shows vision a promise for the future.
We could even save money on the lunches.

#250

Yet again, the old Scots are racist card.

You are pathetic.

You should understand that the world is full of cretins of all types, not just in Scotland.

Did you know that there even exists a neo-Nazi gang in - wait for it - Israel?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6985808.stm

Incredible, isn't it?

Well, no it's not so incredible because we know that buffoons like that exist everywhere - in Scotland, Israel - everywhere.

Now, what were we saying about matters of education.....

It's easy to promise the world in opposition.

Maybe he could just pay £100,000 and hang a sign on every classroom door saying there are 18.

The SNP have proven themselves yet again as failures.

Stephen Purcell, Labour leader of Glasgow City Council, said: "We would have to build extensions to schools that don't have the capacity for that, so there could be an impact on other facilities such as the gym. There is no way, without a huge injection of capital, that we can deliver this within the four-year term."

Asked whether he would agree to follow the SNP's pledge, he said: "Not without legislation. This education authority does not believe that reducing class sizes significantly is going to have any impact on increasing literacy and numeracy."

I love it because the exact same type of questions in Halifax, nova scotia surround the wisdom of behind and perhaps hosting a commonwealth games.
Councils that can't seem to get the priorties of the communities straight chasing something that should and will probably go to Africa for the first time.

Mr.Salmond should have a good look around Scotland.He will find plenty money to fund a decent education for Scottish youngsters....The Duke of Buccleugh's estate as Scotland's 50th richest man,his large tracts of Scottish land plus the the ill gotten gains of those above him on the ladder of wealth.Then there is the question of oil and gas in Scottish waters.He could dip into the large profits made by private companies involved in all the aspects of Scottish oil.....there are more than enough funds the cover the cost of giving our children a decent education.The question is ...does Mr.Salmond have the courage to take this action ?....

276

A corner it has taken decades to paint around.
the SNP are simply trying to deal with a mess built up over decades of neglect and now that it is their responsiblity they are having to dodge the flak for it. Can they sort it out I dont know but lets judge them on their efforts which means after not before they have had a chance to deal with it.
And lets not forget they have to do it with a minority government and hostile councils.
Labour has had full government and council control for decades and this is the result so the SNP are already the better option.

and another thought....the money which is in the pipeline for Glagow hoping to host the Olympics would be better spent on the future of our youngsters.Their needs and education must be put in front of any possible benefits for business which hosting the Olympics may or may not bring.

280

Very true but Labour and the Tories actually had a chance to deliver when in power and now both parties actually have the gall to complain about the state of the health and education systems and are harping onto the SNP to sort them out with a minority government and somehow this will be the fault of their Independence agenda.
Is it not obvious? If so why do you unionists keep harping on about it?

#285

Good practical point. Labour would say, the rolls are capped, you cannot get in. The Tories would not have a cap at all and would continually switch resources around with the pupils. I suspect (although I don't know) that the Lib Dems would cap and then let some in when they move into the area. Any idea what the SNP position on this would be?

#283

Seeing as Scotland (as part of the UK) is bound by the European Convention on Human Rights, if you propse to confiscate the land and assets of the Duke of Bucclech and other rich landowning types, then you have to pay them compensation. Likewise with previous profits made by oil companies, and with the assets of the oil companies if you were to nationalise them.

So either:

1) you propose that Scotland when independent withdraws from the European Convention (and the Council of Europe);
2) you are talking out of yer arse.

#280

The current propositions on here seem to be:

1) the SNP are not to blame for failing to deliver so far on some of their election promises, cos they are a minority government, and don't control councils like Glasgow;

2) "but Labour and the Tories actually had a chance to deliver when in power and now both parties actually have the gall to complain about the state of the health and education systems".

But surely the Tories when in power equally had the same problems that the SNP now face, in that they didn't control many councils, and they were a minority in Scotland?

284 Honest Jock

"And lets not forget they have to do it with a minority government and hostile councils."

Uphill struggle then belies the usual S.N.P rhetoric. Perhaps they are in this position because they do not have the support for their policies.

294

Which doesnt say much for the rest does it? cause they have even less.
A complacent voting public due to the last 50 years of corrupt government, broken promises, poor to bad policies and complete indifference from a Westminster parliament totally geared to work for London and the South East.
its a start actually its a good start and it can only get better and its sticking in the craw of the Unionists already.

#289 and #291....to quote a wise French philosopher and writer....'behind every great fortune there lies a great crime'.....laws are made by men ...and these laws are made by the rich for the rich...as for their morals read hypocricy and humbug.....if the European Convention and the Council of Europe don't serve the needs and best interests of the majority of the of the Scots people then any Scottish Government should put the Interests and needs of the Scots first.

292

The Tories have never been in power within the new Scottish Parliament so their power came from the Westminster parliament which was total irrespective of how many Scottish tory MPs there were or Tory councils. the same for Labour and what did they do with that total power for Scotland? well as you can see with our present NHS crises and Education crises under debate bugger all. But now we have a Devolved Scottish Parliament and we had a Labour party in control of both and had power within the majority of councils as well and what happened to our Health service and education? well what is it thats under debate now? a crises.
Isnt this a big enough argument for ditching the Union?

No neither the Tories nor Labour had the obsticles the SNP have now in fact its both of these parties that are the obsticles and do you think they will put your welfare before that of party politics?

284 Honest Jock

Good to see to see my rambling thoughts(MS and the consequent attention span of a goldfish) articulated.
But from this forum I sense a nation divided.

#304

Get Sean Connery to do it. There is a lovely video of him explaining it on YouTube, it has graphis of pound notes flying out of Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburgh and into London.

I think the average SNP voters lack of education means that if they see a graphic of money flying south then it must be true.

291

I go for option 2 myself.

#299. karinm

"suspects"??? I think those that haven't already plead guilty, have condemned themselves with their own words.

I'm not sure what their punnishment will be but I hope it envolves copious ammounts of Porridge, Ir'n Bru, mashed Turnip and Haggis, we'll keep the Whisky and Shortbread to ourselves, for the after-show party.

I have to say I think everyone has missed the bigger question in this article.

Fiona Hyslop, would you?

Pah, another fantasy dashed.

#253. CJO, The Maghreb &
#255. The Maltese Falcon, Malta

Q - How many Unionists does it take to change a light bulb?

No more than 18 in a class for the early years of Schools, it's just typical of some consils not to acept it as a good idea.

As someone who was in classess with 35-37pupils in Primarry & High school of which suffered in pirticular due to ignored dyslexia and went up to high school barely being able to read. Unfourtunty (I've heard) this can be common in some areas of Scotland if NOT all and is too prevelent in 12year olds today.

I wish education boards would relaise that how important it is to provide proper suport to children that struggle to read when their 5, 6, 7 and stop waiting untill their at high school (just to say that the S1 & S2 are at lower reading levels than expected) May be I should sue the education board to help them get the message or write them a letter to themto explain things.

#314. AMNo2tiredofmoaningtothemoderator: Sorry!!!!

I dinna ken what yer on about!!!!

Re #317

A - Infinity - Scotish Unionists prefer to remain in the dark, bleating about how we can't aford a new lightbulb and even if we could we are too weak and stupid to be able to change it and besides - The English wouldnae let them.

Did the SNP manifesto say it would be easy to have class sizes of 18 - NO
Would our kids benefit from class sizes of 18 - YES
Could the target be reached with sufficient will and effort - YES
Will Labour try to stop it happening to discredit the SNP - YES

DISGRACEFUL

The electorate will see through these small minded point scoring exercises and Labour will be relegated to become a small band of opposition dinosaurs.

#321. Eve

He might get moderated if he explained

I am a teacher.

I'd love to see smaller classes.

BUT when this announcement was first made I had serious doubts:

* if classes were to be made smaller the implication was that more classrooms would be required to cope with the increased number of classes

* if classroom space was to be increased then there would be a problem in some schools as they are already at capacity

* some councils are reducing class space by mergers and PPP projects - they can't suddenly change their plans to cope with an increase in the space required

* a reduction in class sizes would also obviously require an increase in the teaching compliment of schools - the reality is that many schools, despite McCrone, are struggling to recruit staff in many areas of the curriculum

* an increase in teaching compliment also has a knock-on effect for promoted posts and salaries for job-sizing - any finance for new teachers would also need to cover additional promoted salary costs and associated pensions

My own opinion is that while small clases are desirable the timescale to implement the policy is unrealistic. I suspect that after consultation with the councils and the unions Fiona Hyslop will have to review her plans.

The Executive also needs to seriously examine the whole issue of teacher recruitment and retention - there is no point in aiming to have more teachers if they are not there in the first place.

#325

We could always employ some Polish immigrants to teach our kids.
If nothing else it would improve the work ethic of our emerging workforce!!

#321 Eve in an entirely sexist and gratuitous manner, I think Ms Hyslop's more of a yummy mummy than Bendy Wendy. Unfortunately that profoundly sensible homophobe Karinm dashed my fantasies.

#322. Col. Blimp IV*: Oh right,

I was thinking it was rougthly about 46, in which wan of them makes sure the swich is off, wan phones the press, wan changes it and the other comment on what a wonderfull job they have done and are availble for the next 4-8 years to comment about this great achivement at any given time and how they could change more light bulbs in future.

BUT then again that might be the answer if the question had involed Labour MSP and NOT unionist in general.

A thought.

If we it turns out that the policy cannot be implemented within the original timescale then one possible temporary compromise would be to invest in Support for Learning staff - an extra body is sometimes all you need to make things that little bit easier in the classroom.

#325 We already have a Polish teacher at my school!!

#300

He also said:

"A country is strong which consists of wealthy families"

What exactly do you mean by this?

"if the European Convention and the Council of Europe don't serve the needs and best interests of the majority of the of the Scots people then any Scottish Government should put the Interests and needs of the Scots first."

Are you saying that if a majority of Scots consider it acceptable to do away with the human rights for a minority of Scots, then that is OK?

#328 Tell me how you can operate a shift system if the teachers are not there in the first place?

As I did say in my previous post (#325) it is not just an issue of classroom space but a shortage of teachers as well.

Q. How many Scottish "patriots" does it take to the change a lightbulb?

A. It will be up to the people of Scotland to decide after independence if changing light-bulbs is in the best interests of the people of Scotland.

#329

You are correct - it is complicated.

I did not have that in my original list of problems - but it is a concern. Space might be found to cope with extra classes - unfortunately it would be in schools that many parents do not want to send their children to.

The issue of class size is not mutually-exclusive - it needs to be dealt with in the context of the wider educational environment. I would like it examined in a lot more detail as part of a fundamental review of education - examining not only class size but also standards, SfL and other issues.

#330 I'd agree!! But Methalions would disagree!!

:D

#329. Methalions: It depends what the local school is like.

In primary school (which was local), I offted wished I could move schools, they made many blunders with me (one was: taking me out of proper English classes to read single words instead of sentences was very damaging, as evedence suggest that sentense help and allow the student to have an educated geuss what word says and alslo helps with grammar something I've never been able to make up with) & never took a stance against secterinism (most of the times I wicknessed it there was a teacher in the room, who must have heard it).

I'm stunned that there are actually people arguing that smaller class sizes DON'T work. If that's their attitude why not cut out the middle man and ensure that all children of the same age are in one class for every town?
The sad thing is that there are so many Labourite numpties out there that this is some thing they'd do. Atleast the SNP are trying to do something positive now and not fob everyone off with "well maybe later..." like their useless predecessor and their imps and familiars (aka FibDems and Tories).

#345 But is party willing to tackle the issue of parent power - I doubt it.

"#343. a proud doonhamer / 5:34pm 9 Sep 2007 336

A shortage of teachers or a shortage of placements in university producing teachers?"

Both. More teachers could be trained but there is also the issue of retainment.

I notice COSLA saying "we are not sure that in all instances reducing class sizes drives up attainment,"

I think they should fill us in as to what those circumstances actually are.

I guess I could repeat what they said but word it slightly differently:

"Smaller class sizes DO drive up attainment in ALLMOST ALL circumstances"

Let me get this straight though this is a issue of £200 Million over 4 years to cover the whole of scotland?

Thats basically £50milllion per year for our whole country, and they have already handed over £40Milllion!

Doesn't actually sound all that bad when put i those terms.

I suspect this is just a minor budgetary "negotiation" between cooncils and Holyrood with the added "spice" of political mischief making from the SNP's opponents.

Do councils ALWAYS whine about how little money they have?

Sorry I meant "...when I put it in those ..."(line 9)

Sticky Keyboard (don't ask)

#333. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: MMM I don't think that would be the same. BUT then again you possible have never teached or been in class where at least 1/2 of the class has a problem which resembes Dyselxia, I wicknessed this when I was at school. Bleave me 1 suport person is just not enougth.

When I was in Primarry 6 and 7 we had Learning suporrt teacher who came in once a week (didn't know who they where then BUT It seem obvouse now). In P6 one of my classmates who was male had something that might have been dyslexia and was give suporrt in this way!

In P7 I was in another class and this woman still came in this time she'd curculate more, giving help to about 7 of us. No one told me that the school was aware that I had litersy problems (BUT they apartnly were and never once told me.)

In High School in S1 I was reguarly removed from English class to be subject to the same test over and over again (I'm geussing they were dyslexia senstive tasks)

In S3 &S4 I was granted Learning suport BUT the was a massive problem in English the Learning was only in for 1hour a week at first AND I was in standard grade English Class where more than 1/2 of us need the Support. I think they started come one more hour a week in S4.
I think my expernces in School dementrate what happen when students are put in classess of between 35-37 when in primarry 1, 2,3 and all others. I don't know how many were dyslexic in my standard grade English class or how many where just poorly tought or had poor attendence or other problems.

Though learning suport when I was at school was something that wasn't stable. I geussing or at least hoping that things have improved. BUT I wouldn't bank on them alwaays turning up, sometime going to meetings (some of which are out of the school) instead of in the casses.

#347

"I'm stunned that there are actually people arguing that smaller class sizes DON'T work."

OK, quote some studies that show that for anything other than the earliest years in primary it would make a difference to reduce the class sizes from the ones we have now. Willing to be convinced, but just don't see it.

#337. Kobi: Is energy efftiont NOT better for the enviroment, espesail;ly when these cheap Asda/Tesco wans keep going like that!!!!

Q. How many SNP members does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. We don't need lightbulbs cos the sun shines out of Alex Salmond's arse.

#269, #279 karinm

You have twice labelled me racist because I questioned the value of a study of black and white children in Tennessee to a debate on schooling in Scotland. You can have little knowledge of Tennessee or its schools. For your information Tennessee is a southern state and until the 1960s most of its schools were segregated on racial lines. The black had - and still have - much lower incomes than the whites and are more likely to be unemployed. so their families are more likely to fall apart. Many of the whites are religious fundamentalists: Tennessee was the state that challenged the teaching of evolution and still tries to push creationism. To draw attention to this is not racist: it is common sense.
Methalions (who originally drew attention to the Tennessee study) and I and others have had a civilised discussion about improving performance in schools and factors such class size and the role of local authorities. I am sorry that you couldn't join in with resorting to personal insults and abuse.

#351

"Smaller class sizes DO drive up attainment in ALLMOST ALL circumstances"

If that is the casee, you will surely be able to produce some proof of that statement, for kids other than in the early years of primary school?

#355
"Is energy efftiont NOT better for the enviroment, espesail;ly when these cheap Asda/Tesco wans keep going like that!!!!"

I don't know. That will be for the people of Scotland to decide.

#351. Non political: Aye,

They also complain when the people their supose to be repersting try to stop planning developments on every last piese of green land there is because they want to make money out of it.

Take my adivice and take an interst in politics don't let the council robe the community, stand up for the community (remeber to think!!!) BUT don't forget to prase them or give them some sort of respict when they do something right in hope they'll carry on doing whats right for the community

#353

Eve - working in on a school in one of the most disdavantaged areas in Dundee I can tell you that I do get classes that require Learning Support.

The problem is though that much that the SfL department would like to help they do not have the staffing levels to provide the support required. Matters have been made worse by the inclusion policy - meaning that many of those who would have received specialist help and assistance no longer get it and the SfL departments are over-stretched trying to cope. What is worse though is that many SfL staff are not dealing with Learning Support issues but Behavioural Support - keeping little thugs from stepping out of line.

The sad thing is that many of these pupils should not be in school as as they have social, emotional and behavioural problems that are way beyond what most schools can cope with. Moreover, because staff are dealing with this sort of pupil means that many who do need help and assistance get ignored.

Education needs real resources if any progress is going to be made - unfortunately too many of our politicians think you can do it on the cheap.

#335....if the cake were cut equally then there would be a lot more rich families in Scotland and not the handful we have at present....Our children have HUMAN RIGHTS and their rights are greater than those of a minority who could live very comfortably on a lot less than they currently have.As for corporations....to award them HUMAN RIGHTS makes a mockery of the whole idea......perhaps Mr. Salmond should give the SNP membership a shake up to ensure that they do pay their dues to society.Then he may benefit from a visit to Caracas to consult President Chavez whom I am sure can give him some hints on how to ensure that Scotland's wealth can provide a good education for all our children.

This is a get idea, to have oly 18 kids in the primary school classes. I think the schools are raising a negative fuss because they can' be bothered with a change. Surely, where here is a will, there is a way: do these educators really have the children's best interests at heart, as does the SNP? C'mon, educators, find a way to get the size of classes down!! You are smart enough to do so are you not?

#365 Stop trolling and give this subject the serious consideration it deserves - if you can't do that then just sod off.

#365....Hard words indeed.....Glasow is not my favourite city BUT in my experience and giving credit where it's due,not all Glaswegians are 'stinking alcohlics',nor do they all vote SNP....I would be very amused to watch you voicing your opinion of Glaswegians personally whilst in that city...I am certainly not a supporter of the SNP but from personal contact with many of them I can tell you that they are not all deficient in literacy or numeracy,nor do they have a monopoly on laziness and stupidity.There are a fair few Tories and Labourites who fit that bill vey nicely.

#363 Lack of Wisdom

No there would not. All that would happen is that were would be even more poor people.

Who owns corporations? Shareholders, either individuals, or other corporations, who in turn are owned by individuals or other corporations etc etc.

At the end of the day ultimate ownership in these corporations is either with the individual punter, or their pension fund (or similar investment). The biggest private equity takeover world-wide to date was by the pension fund of Canadian public sector workers.

So are you against indiduals having shares or invesntments? Are you against people saving for their retirement via pensions? Clearly.

Ah, the quasi-dictator President-for-Life and failed attempted coupster Chavez. If that is what you are aiming for in Scotland then we should all get out now. Do you know how many are in jail for opposing his policies? How every TV station is now controlled by him? How dissent is barely tolerated?

Be warned - the last mad dictator praised by lefties like you for providing good education for children as he slaughtered and persecuted innocent people was Mugabe. Mind you, as he persecuted "wealthy" farmers, you probably adore him.

You clearly have no respect for human rights. I can't wait for the day something happens to you by the state and you start whining about your rights.

#351 - costs look like being £120m-£150m pa plus capital costs for new classes. Would be fine if it weren't for the research evidence that it will make little sustained difference.

Targetted reductions should be what we are going for. Across the board reductions are simply an improvement to teachers emplyment conditions.

# 367 You are right, these wasters have always been there and used to vote Labour. I guess New Thatcherism has got the lay abouts scampering after socialism as per.

#368 I am being perfectly serious. Getting class sizes down is a waste of time. Every study ever done shows it's the parents influence that has the greatest effect on a child's acadenic achievements. I think the SNP should be more goal orientated rather than play to voters who are too thick to have a positive influence on their kids.

If you want have an educated next generation, lift the communities out of poverty. Buy back playing fields, stop ripping of citizens by charging an arm and a leg for community centre entrances etc etc.

The children will have stuff to do. Mum and Dad can get involved.

It is sad but true, there are a lot of thick and useless parents out there. Educating and improving them would be far better as they have more impact on a childs development.

..#370...Karinm I take it that you are an SNP supporter...not all unionists share the views of Bangonthedoor...many Labour supporters are miguided and have not realised that New Labour is the right flank of the Tory party...there is some hope for this category of Unionist..the Tories themselves are another matter altogether...not misguided,just plain bad and fully aware of what their party is up to.

#372 Methalions

Gee man, I wasn't going to post on here again today but I'm getting concerned as your sounding like a tomato short of a picnic. Does Mrs Methalionns know that your out of bed? I suggest that you go and lie down and, before you do, turn the bloody lights out.

376 Bangontheheid

Aye you sound like a well adjusted individual right enough someone to aspire to a roll model for todays youth. I hope one day all our kids will come across as the enlightened, patient, understanding, objective, fairminded, tolerant, respectful kind of person you appear to be.
Lets hope the SNP Government actually read these threads and takes on board everything you have said we can only pray it becomes policy before its too late for the next generation.

384

Yet ye are willing to entertain AM2 why? theres no difference between them.

#384

You are right, I will give it a rest.

Although I do genuinely believe that you are wasting lots of money by pouring it into education when the kids get taught anger and how to rip the benefits system off at home.

#374...sharing out the cake would hardly make the Scots poorer...they produce the wealth in the first place.the vast majorit of the population have few or no shares worth mentioning but certain corporations,banks,families and inviduals have Lots of shares.If our country were organised and run for the benefit of the Scots then the State would be able to provide adequate pensions for our elderly folk.The only failed attempted coup in Venezuela is the one funded and backed by the CIA.Dissent is tolerated and many opposition tv stations operate in that countryThe majority population have no problem with Mr.Chavez and did not back the coup,quite the opposite in fact.They opposed it.... We already live in a state where people are arrested and imprisoned indefinitely without trial.You really must try to broaden your knowledge of current affairs and world history...don't limit it to CNN,the UK press or the BBC....you seem quite bright and it a shame you feel that you have to resort to personal insult to make your point.

I see now that the Hootsmon (Pravda Branch) Censors are removing posts that criticize AM Squared. Very interesting. Is it anything to do with the fact that he works for them?

Smaller class size DOES help immensely, but the teachers also need to be dedicated and good. A bored or jaded teacher can be a problem, no matter the size of the class.

don't worry Guga11.....most of us have got the measure of the Hootsman and AM2...

Extract from a Scottish parliament report from 2002

'The benefits of reductions in class size tend
to be most marked amongst children in the early years (5-8 years old) of education and with children from ethnic minority groups.'

# 383

What exactly are you happy about? I'm not sure a group of people can file a defamation suit.

I would have to say something about alex salmond, and while I have call him fat, I could just claim veritas as my defence.

If you want examples of defamation please see what the SNP members of this site have to say about Foulkes. He was most upset on the Beeb radio the other day.

#387

If you don't actually know that Chavez failed in an attempted coup in Venezuela in 1992, then nothing you say on Venezuela is worth listening to.

And if you say that "many opposition tv stations operate in that country" then your "knowledge" is laughbale. In May this year Chavez refused to renew the licence to the only TV station (RCTV)which opposed him.

So where does the money in Scotland come from to pay for taxes to pay for pensions? Wealth creators, that's right, individuals and businesses to provide jobs and make profits and pay taxes to pay for the public servies and pensions you seem to like. Take away the wealth of these people, and you take away their ability to do that. No profits, no taxes, and no public services. Twenty years later, and we're wondering why North Korea has passed us in standard of living.

#389 MichScot

"Smaller class size DOES help immensely"

Other than for the early years of primary, there is simply not sufficient evidence that this is true. If you think differently, please refer us to research that supports that.

I see one of you got your tits in a wringer and had my charming and very comlimentary posts regarding Fiona - shame on you. The PC police strike again. What a boring crowd you are.

#394 & 396 CASEY PURVIS

You are not a smart Scot but an out and out racist and I am reporting you as such.

Glad to hear that the good Lord was upset by you awful,nasty Scotsman bloggers!!!
He deserves every nasty bit!!
He is insulting Scots everywhere and has his vitriol backed up by strange posters making generalisations about how 'EVERYONE knows that Scots hate the English'

Not true!I'll shout that 'NOT TRUE!'

As for all these drunken unemployed,unemployable,uneducated,uneducable SNP supporting Glaswegians,how come the Labour party is still in power here????

Glesga Labour cooncil - QED = shaved monkeys, I bet you they don't have 3 o grades to rub between them!

Lets kick oot thae Labur scum - scab mining protesters the lot of them!

WE DON'T NEED LABOUR THEY'VE SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYED SCOTLAND WE WERE ON OUR KNEES UNTIL MAY 2007 - NOW I'M STANDING AND I TELL YOU EUROPE IS WATCHING.....

SAOR ALBA

Did a thorough investigation of the educational system indicate that a reduction of primary school classes to 18 pupils should be the priority? There are so many other aspects to consider that in the absence of a serious investigation, the prioritising of a reduction in class sizes would amount to little more than silly meddling that might just work, but which is far more likely to squander resources. What is to be taught, the way it is to be taught, audiovisual equipment, the quality of textbooks, the training of teachers, how discipline is maintained, the way in which gifted and impaired children are handled, the manner in which the social and financial problems of pupils' families are handled... The list goes on and on. How did the SNP settle on primary school class size as the critical issue in education?

#405 Just the point I was making earlier - you can't traet the issue of class sizes as being mutually-exclusive - other issues and factors come in to paly - a coherent expansive policy is required not one that looks at one small aspect of educational policy.

And before any of the Nats give me a kick - Labour were not any better with their educational policy - a mish-mash of half-baked, ill-resourced measures that at best patched up a leaky system.

Education policy needs radically reviewed - not just one part of it as happened in the past (for example Munn & Dunning, 5-14, Higher Still) - but a wholescale reassessment of the issues that affect everyone's education from nursery right through to secondary and tertiary education.

Whether there is the will or appetite to do so is another matter.

#409 And I'm going to take marks off myself for not checking my typos!!

Oops!!

#362. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: You've got to be kinding? "The sad thing is that many of these pupils should not be in school as as they have social, emotional and behavioural problems that are way beyond what most schools can cope with." Aye right and How many of theos children that you leable with that really fit in too that lable I can tell you that I never and my High School transhied my name by saying my imargeray emotional and behaviour problem where effecting my reading and writing. This is ovouse lies because it well documment that dyslexia is NOT caused by these things.

Thats a very hartless think to say it's vetail important that speasal needs children are allowed to mix with thoes that are called normal. Social inclusion is a good thing.

I'm against speasal needs school cause I think they down grade the pupils that atend them, treating like there stuiped.

Where is your belife in equailty I've met people who are dyslexic (which does not effect intelagence) have been to thoes offal schools and been dinend the right to sit standard grades. So much for equality, with dictaour like you.

#396. CASEY PURVIS: NO, yer wrong about that!!!

Thoues folk more likely bring skills and knowlage.

Defently smarter than yer avarage you either suport Rangers or Celtic Glaswichen.

#414. karinm: Ah Wickipedia, the website which has a disclamier saying that information on it might no be true.

The website that folk such as that made socialsit Roise Kane had her profile changed and others too. Hackers aparntly can't get enough of changing information.

#414 - karinm -

no. They're politicians. You didn't strike me as the naiive type.

#383.....The same can be said for yourgoodself,forgetting to mention the CIA inspired and backed coup.The One which the majority of the Venezuelan people rejected.....selective amnesia?....you are right about money coming from the wealth creators...but these are not the companies and individuals you speak of.The wealth is produced by the country's natural resources,and it's labour force,including oil....if we are doing so well under the present arrangements then why are we told that there is not enough money for decent education,nor for decent pensions,nor for a decent health service or public housing...it seems that under this truly wonderful system and in this land of plenty the average Scot is relatively hard up and impoverished,enjoying a lower quality of life than most of his fellow Europeans....could it be that these CREATORS of WEAlTH,the businesses and entrepreneurs are taking more than their fair share?That we have a welfare state for the rich and priviledged at the expense of adequate public services?

#414....The British State has a record of underhand activities....what do you expect of them?The the unionists in Scotland and their masters in Westminster and the City of London are the Enemy of a truly independent Scotland.

Is that better?

#432 Blush - just realised I did not check my typos after going on about proof-reading . . .

#427. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: Nice to see you support social exclusion. Thoes poor children will be like zoo animals to the other children.

Wan of the reasons when I was at School I refused to go to the learning suport office was I felt like it would be humiluating and didn't want to be separedet from my peers so instead I choise to try harder at the subjects and prove them wrong.

I now have a degree in my poorist subject at school, Are you shocked? I ironically could in theroy teach the subject the folk at tech Scotland have nae problem with the Dyslexia as long as do my higher English or the equivelent.

The thing is you don't know when or how it's going to eventaly understood by the pupil. Belive me personaly I find it easyer to read more than one thing and compare them than just read one. This means I'm ironicaly better at more advaced reading skills than more basic one. Thats where folk like yours theory crumble when face with someone who like me.

Let me tell you a little secreet sometime the best ways to get around something is to allow the indaviul to creat their own techinque.

P.S. I had Learning support in my standard grade Exams. So I know that the suport can be made in a normal school.

Hello Meths!

Yes, am here but am in a state of deep gloom and depression after seeing our World Cup Rugby side start so promisingly against Wales and then EWTS. We were dominating them and then the bloody roof caved in!

Nice to see Scotland win!

Glad to see you back my friend. Sensed you were just completely browned off last night.

Glorious autumn afternoon here. Geese are flying south - hope that isn't an omen as it is a bit early.

Last time that happened the snow came in mid-November and stayed until mid-April.

Cheers and hope you have found a drop of the golden elixer! Cheers.

#434. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: Whats Bush got to do with it?

Eve - I think you should be "blushing".

#435 I despair - at no point have said that those with dyslexia should be excluded. I said that those with the most severe SOCIAL, EMOTIONAL and BEHAVIOURAL DIFFICULTIES are the ones who need specialist help.

We are not talking about pupils with learning difficulties like dyslexia, dyspraxia or asperger's sysndrom.

We are not even taking about chidren who are ADD or ADHD.

We are not talking about children who are autistic.

We are talking about children who are not only disrupting their own education but disrupting others education as well.

We are talking about pupils who can be violent and a danger to other pupils.

We are talking about pupils who are a health and safety risk in practical subjects because of their behaviour.

Schools have neither the staff nor the resources to deal with the most severe cases - cases that require skills far beyond those of day-to-day teaching.

It is all and fine to pontificate about being inclusive - but that should not be to the exclusion of the others - what about the 29 other pupils in the class that want to learn?

Oh but they don't matter in the politically correct world - do they?

#440. Dunnie: Isn't that just amazing how many words look simalair!

see that word you've got their I can't help picturing extra letters which are: LT

Who is the politician or minister whatever, kidding by saying that smaller classes don't improve literacy, etc. Everyone knows that teachers can not give a lot of attention to a student who may need help if she/he has a large class. I would venture to guess that children of the people controlling the purse strings are in a private school with very small classes. Primary school is the time for making sure the clases are smaller and t hat the kids learn. by the time they are pre teen or teenagers they will be ready to drop out of school because the higher grades are more difficult. Good primary education should be paramount in education. Instead of erecting ugly buildings that costs millions of pounds the schools should come first.

If I follow your logic, I believe you would need an extra letter "l" and two "ts".

If that was the case, it would hardly do you credit.

#441. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: Where you no a teacher in the 1990's cause what your saying their was used to discribe thoes with dyslexia and I will only belive things have changed if I have evedence. Which quite rightly why I feel insulted and horrfied by remarks, cause I'm ware that schools sometime make things up I had a report full of lies written by my school.

I don't really get yer last point about thier being 1 disrubter and 29 wanting to learn.

Cause the class that I attened that had disrubtions where allways done by more than 1 pupil. Belive me I was in a class that there was only 2 of us that wanted to learn the others just messed about. It was a subject I use to have a strength in, so I never quite understood why I was always put in lower and problem classes at school. I'm so thankfull that I stuck to my guns and refused to do genral science and went for one that you couldn't sit foundation.

YES I'll admit it was my year that started the BAD behaviour at school sprial. They may not have be vilont BUT they did stand on tables & chairs and talked alot.

#443. Kitti Kat: Thats an ezsalant point!!!

My reading was a complete and unter mess untill I did shared reading (1:1) at High school. Unfourtantly in my school days they only let you have until you've improved yer reading by a year, which has the down side that there still leaving you on your on to read below your capability.

Methalions, what about the Council Tax freeze?

#445. AM2: You really do have no empaphy what so ever.

It's discussting that you belive in Sosial exclusion.

May be yer lucky enogth NOT have ever been subject to it, Ihave and wont stand by and watch it happening to other young people.

#425

"If they took a cross-section of teachers and not educationalists, it would be all sorted out in a couple of months."

So long as they had nothing to do with any teaching union, then great idea. I've seen the teaching reps at work on council education committees, and they are the most obstructive force to change you ever saw.

#450 - Methalions - do you think Fiona H is cute?

Pity about John Swinney. I always thought that he was a decent bloke. Still, politics is politics I suppose.

#443

"Who is the politician or minister whatever, kidding by saying that smaller classes don't improve literacy, etc."

Where in the forum rules does it say that repeating something ad nauseam without any supporting evidence makes it true?

Col Blimp IV*

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1442302007

re-calibration required. Regroup.

#446. Dunnie: NO, I can't help BUT sometime see extra letters in words, sometime I see it the way it is BUT I have a thought that maybe there should be extra letters in the word sometimes it makes a word some times it doesn't. It's like an over active amagination when it comes to written language. The realatity spelling sometime becomes blur.

444 - Meths -

Couldn't have said it better.

Though a bearer of a UK passport, I can only look in from the outside concerning Scotland's affairs.

Previous postings of mine have outlined my views. I hope that Scotland will stay in the Union to play an even more important role.

However, my take is that Scots will vote for independence. If so, I certainly hope that the victors will be magnanimous and not exclusive. For an independent Scotland will need all the help it needs.

My concern, like yours, are the residual effects of a close vote.

We Canadians know of what you speak. One of our founding provinces, Quebec, came within a half % percentage point of separation during a referendum on independence.

Does bitterness and rancour still exist? You bet.

I hope that you continue to add your share of wit, intellect and measured responses to this forum.

Must dash. Cheers, Dunnie.

#457

Patrick, I agree. I met John Swinney once. He seemed a genuine bloke. But genuine blokes don't last in politics.

#446 - Understood.

#450. Methalions : GOOD FOR YOU
heres some tips:
Look up grant funders for schools, projects to do with youths or children and may be education might be good funders/ trusts to aply for.

Rember to have a clear AIM & Objectives!!!!

Anec like Fiona Hyslop. She big woman. She in River city yes?

Actually, educational research suggests that class size must be between 10 and 14 (depending on the teacher's abilities and the special needs of the students) before class size makes a real difference. Effectively, it has to be one-on-one teaching with a separate curriculum for each student. Putting teacing assistants into the classroom to assist students with problems works far better than going to an arbitrary class size that still does not provide the milieu in which a teacher can give significant attention to each student. When you consider the incredible strides Scotland make in education historically, it was done with multi-grade classes, small schools, limited resources and yet it lead the world.
Class size promises appeal to the voter (and all parties use them) but the more honest approach is far harder to sell . . . . and no politician wants that!

#465 Methal - excellent. are we having ginger kids at the school?

#470 -Brick in the Wall.

#457. Patrick O'Reilly: What ye on about?

Don't remeber reading anything about that in the story. NOT sure if read all of it, must be getting late my heads get closer to the keyboard.

#444 Methalions

Your post was a serious one deserving of considered comment, so please take this in that spirit.

I think you have been particularly perceptive there. If we are to have a referendum, we should get it over and done with ASAP, and get a decisive result that puts it to bed for a generation, whether yes or no. Believe me, even if there is a large yes vote, it will not be long before the movement to join back up with England, Wales and (Northern) Ireland starts up.

What would be the worst of all worlds would be 4 years of manufactured controversies either by Salmond & Co, like the Lockerbie one, or by Foulkes and Co, like the one the other day. After four years of this, things will be extremely bitter, no matter the result of a referendum.

Problem is, is that the nats don't have the votes yet to win a referendum, and it seems to me their only straetgy can be to build up those votes by strengthening the undecided voters feeling of Scottish solidarity/grievance (choose as you think appropriate).

Another divide that is not commented on is the central belt v the rest of Scotland. To many people, rule by Edinburgh & Glasgow is just as bad as rule by London, and that needs to be taken into account in any strategy. Whether the SNP, with more representation from the rural areas will change that, that we will wait and see.

You are right though, it is going to get very very bitter.

#477 - Kobi - hoping I am wrong, I believe you to be right.

#475. Methalions: I thought it was Aim, Objectives then procdures and then other steps (of which it's too late to go through) in creating an organsation that comes across in paper as a worvie investment.

Thats funny lets hope no one wants me to teach them how to spell, read (or at least no on a bad day) or use written grammer.

#482 - Good night yourself. ( What? No 500?)

#480 - AM2 - try to find a position that does not slither across this thread, based only tactical desire to bottom-scrape and obfuscate, before writing. I see no denounciation of the phrase "london labour" in your link. You have denounced such phrases as being racist and anti-English. When it suited you..... But not today when it is your employers who use it. You are a shameful, bilous vacuum and wouldn't know a principle if one slapped you in the napper.

#480. AM2: Are you talking to yer self again?

#484. Dunnie: It appears to be a number, only a number!!!!

#483 - Eve - my, my. Your spelling, diction and grammatical structure has improved dramtically - ok, marginally!

Troll alert? Or decreased intake?

#482

Yes, there is a grain of truth in Dr Johnson's accusation I am afraid.

Nice chatting to you. Good night.

#457 #464

Has something happened to Swinney?

#488 Dunnie - we have enough dicktion on this thread already - see #480

#488 - Hah! Dramtically? All right. I retreat in humility. Sorry Eve.

#492 - Ayrshire Laddie - point taken.

Ham needs carving.

#491 - Mauled by the hungry caterpillar?

#488. Dunnie: On first point, Yes, result I'm getting somewhere. I like improving and learning.

second paragraph confused where it comes from and far to tried to know what this word says "decreased" I'm sure I know it.

Sleep time for me good night.

Wan question, why do so many folk on this sights go over a bridge when they know that theres a troll under neath the bridge, willing to ponce unexpectantly.

#491. Kobi: Aye me too I'm also confused by what there saying!!

May be Wendys been reading him bedtime stories again!!! Poor Sweeny all he wants to do is his job and he's forsed to listen to bedtime stories durring the middle of the day.

Speaking of bed time stories it time for me to sleep.

Night

>>>>>>>>BREAKING NEWS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nationalists seize Unionist stronghold!!!
-----------------------------------------------

Wendy Alexander recently announced that the title "Labour in Scotland" is to be replaced by "Scottish Labour Party".

Nationalist Cyber Patriots moved swiftly, outflanking Unionist Forces, to sieze control of the following Domains.

www.scottishlabourparty.co.uk

and

www.scottishlabourparty.com

and

www.scottishlabourparty.org

Visitors to these domains will be greeted by Prime Minister Alex Salmond of the Scottish Government,
and will be invited to join the SNP and/or make a contribution........ >>>> embargo..........>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------
end

498 - AM2 - I think you mistake me for someone who might own a copy of "AM2's collected drivel" or whatever reference repository in which you keep your own postings, and from you which you now make reference in the most laughable and pompous display of venal self importance seen on these threads since George Foulkes was last quoted.

You have accussed SNP supporters of racism, and you have cited "London Labour" as a divisive phrase in support of your false and deliberately misleading bile. If I could stomach rummaging through the back issues of your invented bilge I would, but alas I, like most, balk at such a task. I shall not retract. You are a ridiculous, divisive, pontificating pultroon of the lowest originality and style.

Re #462 - on no related point, as certain cretinous contributors on here are known have huge petted lips and sulkingly report any and all posts which expose their ludicrousness to the moderator, I was reminded of a chimpanzee throwing excrement.

According to a recent ICM poll, 52 per cent of Britons now believe it is wrong for a Scot to become prime minister, rising to 59 per cent in the South-East.

racism? lol...

sorry, for clarification, post 503 refers to a 'recent' poll cut and pasted from 2006...

AM2 -

how about this for a 'chip on the shoulder', stirring, hate-fueled blog?

http://englandparliament.blogspot.com/

504 - yes, but, dividing by a factor unionist obfuscation, multiplying by a Brit nat constant of confusion, and treating all to the square root of Tory illusion, surely the margin of error on your poll is too high? Just thought I'd save AM2 the time.

#450

"1. Heedie extraordinaire...NAUOAN"

No thanks - I don't want to aim that low . . .

#462

"Depressingly true, and you're right about the divisions. It's not the kinds of people who have the inclination to post on forums like these we would need to be worried about. But that's democracy. This is where we are..."

No, AM2, that is where YOU are.

That website you link to is the nationalist equivalent of the unionist YOU.

That's why I hate, not you, but your posts with every fibre of my body. You are a unionist fanatic who misrepresents, deliberately, the pro-independence position and, by doing so, you are exactly the kind of person who stirs up the bitterness Meths etc. are referring to.

Believe me, I'm not exaggerating. This is exactly how you come across. If this bothers you, you should really learn to change your tune.

Anyway - goodnight one and all - I'm away to bed - need my beauty sleep before facing those bairns tomorrow!!

:D

think I've got the root cause of AM2's angst -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Unionist_Party

scroll about half-way down and look at the maps for election results 1997 to 2005... the UUP seem to have lost the battle in northern ireland so AM2 has come here to save Scotland from itself!!!

512 - grand! To continue with the Proclaimers :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBWJzoSKv9w

In the Primary (Montrose Wee Academy) 1944 to 49 where all the groundwork was laid, we had a class size of between 39 and 41. The teachers were, calculated in hindsight, in their 50's and knew how to teach. The pupils were disciplined, there was no trendy educationalist experiments and tables were learned by rote. We all could read and write.

For AM2, George Foulkes etc, and everyone else

Here's an interesting article in The Times, the latest in a series of "Scottish Shockers" they're currently publishing.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/tim_h...

I've no idea what it's meant to mean, but ....

Note the racist attitude towards Belgium, which is quite pathetic and typical "British" of course.

Let us note also the utter ignorance of the "journalist" concerned (journalism and ignorance go hand in hand these days) when he disparages Belgium and it's apparent lack of producing famous people.

Off the top of my head, Belgium is responsible for

1) the greatest singer/song writer Europe has ever produced - Jacques Brel

2) one of the greatest musicians ever, who is widely cited as the greatest guitarist ever - Django Reinhardt

The article, as you can see, smacks so much of the unionist attitude towards everyone else who is not British/English that it is quite beyond belief.

I'm sure AM2 and George Foulkes will approve.

Reading stuff like this, I cannot for the life of me understand why any Scot would wish to be a part of all this.

This article is clear-cut racism against Scotland and another European nation. It is utterly disgusting, but seemingly acceptable because it's not anti-Englishness.

Is that what the union's all about?

I think so.

#517

Thanks for listing stuff I've posted before but can't remember, AM2. It's a great help. Saves me from repeating myself (unlike some people we can mention).

Anyway...

You say:

"You simply cannot understand that non-nationalists are just as passionate about seeing Scotland develop as you evidently are."

And here's where you're wrong.

You see, I know my country very well, because I grew up in it and lived in different parts of it. And one thing I can tell you is that non-nationlists in Scotland tend to be people who are not passionate about independence NOR the union.

Actually, most non-nationlists in Scotland are not even aware of the fact that they are non-nationlists/unionists. They just vote Labour. Because everyone in Scotlnad votes Labour, no?

There are reasons for this (reasons that go back to Rabbie Burns and Red Clydeside which you won't approve of and won't underatand, AM2, so you don't try and tell me that you do understand).

But, the long and the short and the tall of it is...

No one in Scotland is passionate about the union. No one. There are people who think it's for the best or people who think it makes sense and, so, ought to be followed. But NO ONE is PASSSIONATE about the union. YOU, AM2, are completely on your own in this respect.

In the meantime, there are people like me who are so passionate about independence that we are willing to waste out time arguing with you on a notice board that no one, except George Foulkes, reads.

In the meantime, there are people like me who are so passionate about independence that they feel awful feelings of humilation and injustice whenever people outdside the UK refer to them as English, as they so very often do.

That kind of passion does not reside with non-nationalists. If it did, they wouldn't BE non-nationlists. Do you see a pattern forming here?

That's how passionate we are. You, however, are on your own.<

i hope the SNP can get scottish education back to the standard i was lucky enough to have when i was a boy..........thanks to munlochy primary and fortrose academy. im sure the scottish government can do it.

517 AM2

"You really don't see it, do you? You are in absolutely no position to accuse others of “fanaticism"

And this from a poster posting from 12:58am 9th to 1:44am 10th from Glasgow. And that is just on this thread.

522 - Behold, 523 - the Dawn of AM2 - This Time Its Pastey - he is a man possessed (of littl wit, but great froth). An exorcism may be the most responsible course of action.

AM2

fanatacism and extemism are actually 2 traits clearly displayed in your own zeal to post in these forums...

In any scottish political thread, I've demonstrated before that you personally can account for a higher percentage of messages than anyone else, and includes late nighters till 2am on a regular basis.

Is that not fanatical and extemist unonist behavior?

Thanks AM2,

your post has been duly reported for containing links to what I and many others would consider to be extremely offensive websites...

no different than posting links to any other religious or racist extremist stuff and I'm sure the scotsman would frown upon it.

If they dont then I will be posting links to as many offensive organisations and individuals as I can find to show 'balance' i.e. that their are extremists loonies of all persuasions.

@530

and neither do you...'appreciate the disparity'

375. Bridged, and tunnelled

Why are they quoting £200 million if its really between 480 and 600Million with extras on top?

I would have thought it would have been in the interest of whoever wants to make an "issue" of this to quote the higher figures?

Targeted reductions in class sizes may be the best way of doing things but I think that would be a whole new "can of worms", i.e. if only failing schools would get the lower class sizes initially it would open the councils up to various (quite fair) accusations of wasting money, social engineering, setting the project up to fail, not improving education effectively within their authority etc etc.

395. Kobi

""Smaller class size DOES help immensely"

Other than for the early years of primary, there is simply not sufficient evidence that this is true. If you think differently, please refer us to research that supports that."

I think it is only smaller class sizes for the early years of primary that is actually on the table here.

I assume by your post you already know there is loads of research to back that fact up.

405. Caora Dubh

Yes all those other variables may have an effect but the class size issue has reams of research backing it up.

I just looked it up:

http://www.reduceclasssizenow.org/structuredAbstracts.htm

Read some of it and it seems pretty conclusive.

@535 and 536

pertinent or not they are breaching forum rules

----------------------------------------------------------
Only include suitable URLs in your postings. Links to websites we consider unsuitable will be removed, so if you are considering contributing something that contains a URL please make sure that it adds value and interest to the subject of your posting and it isn't purely commercial. Unsuitable sites would include those with racist material,
------------------------------------------------------------

give the mods a nudge and get these links off this forum, and please refrain from rule-breaking in future.

AM2

hmmmm - why is it I saw the same Bebo links last night on this forum but they are gone, only to re-appear as you posted them this morning?

Did you get moderated during the night???

Did you re-post the same offensive links even though you had already been moderated???

naughty naughty AM2 - that could be considered extremist and fanatical lol

#537

"I think it is only smaller class sizes for the early years of primary that is actually on the table here.

"I assume by your post you already know there is loads of research to back that fact up."

The SNP are proposing this only for the early years of primary education, where there is a significant amount of research that this is effective. I have read much of it over the years. However, there seemed to have been countless posters on this thread who have expanded this to mean for all children because (a) they have no idea what the SNP policy is; (b) they have an inability to read what is written on their computer screen; or (c) if they intuitively think that something must be the case, then that makes it an absolute fact, and how can anyone doubt it?

If there are any significant studies to say that it is an effective use of resources in increasing the educational attainment of older children, then I am happy to stand corrected, but I can't find any.

Simple solution, education implementation comes under the control of the Scottish government.

527 - AM2 - your answer is in the question - "positivity and ambition for Scotland" - for Scotland. No positivity about stirrers like you who constantly and repetitively seek to inject division and fabricate racism in these discussions. I have a smidgen of ambition for you that you may one day stop being such a negative and appauling creature.

543. Kobi

Yes I agree I haven't seen any research re small class sizes in later years, thank goodness the SNP aren't proposing that! They would get quite a political doing for that!

I shall however have a look for some research on it when I can be bothered.

AM2

I couldn't be bothered to pick you up on the claims that the SNP have 'backtracked' on free school bus travel but you keep on repeating it.

This what the manifesto said:

We will also pilot a new scheme to tackle congestion during the school run. In Edinburgh school pupils will be given free bus travel before and after school to encourage greater use of public transport. This will include £4 million investment in modern buses, as a more effective alternative to the Edinburgh Trams scheme.

So it is clearly one of the alternatives to the Edinburgh trams. The trams are going ahead therefore the pilot and the additional investment in buses is not.

Not the SNP's choice.

Incidentally for all your talk of things getting ugly AM2 all I see from you on this thread is your usual obsessive rants about nationalism and ethnicity.

Nothing about class sizes.

Do you have an opinon?

Do you care?

Doesn't look like it.

what a waste of time and money this whole system is. Either full independence (and us scots can go to the EU, cap in hand to get hand outs, we will need to after we have to start taxing our own) or remain within the union. Let all the money that is being wasted to pay two sets of MPs, extra government offices here in Scotland (£414m for a building to sit in), extra red tape etc etc etc etc, should all go to the people that need it. You MSPs, Labour MPs and supports of this waste should be ashamed of the money you have wasted on this rubbish.

Just wasted about 30 minutes reading the above. 60% wind and p!ss, 35% bile and vitriol, 5% reasoned thought. Surely our time could be put to better use! Think I'll wait until the SNP Budget comes out in November - boy is that going to be a laugh!!