A parcel o' rogues?

Lets get this right. These three parties fought the election on there was no needs for change. Now they are doing the SNP's job for them in see what can be changed.

The more powers the Scottish Government has the more certain that we will get more and more autonomy. More power to them.

It's almost like Sir Ek is the puppet master and Wend, Anabelle and Nicol are the dummies.

Hanging on to the SNP's coat tails is the best the unionist numpty parties can hope for!!!

So, that's what desperation smells like. Not far from the reek of imminent extinction.

great ........... as long as it is right wing i don't care

Who cares is they won't consider independence. Fiscal autonomy is what we want, the rest, including full independence will then come automatically.

All they are doing is playing catch-up politics, and doing exactly what the SNP want them to do.

It's good that this group are meeting. It might actually get them on the same page as the SNP and the majority of the voters.

#1. And then some ....

An alliance with Libdems is one thing ... but to find common ground with TORIES????? New Labour has just sent hundreds of thousands of its past supporters spinning in their graves. That's a betrayal that goes well beyond the pale!

At least they're following the agenda set by Alex and co. They can't deny that!

Alex Salmond and the SNP government are leading the unionist opposition around by the nose.

Before the election the unionist mantra, echoing their London puppetmeisters, was "no more powers for Hollyrood.

Now, in a desperate, very desperate bid to slow the SNPs advance... they are all suddenly clamouring to offer the Scottish parliament more power.

Like the SNP cares how the additional powers are achieved... as long as the Parliament is getting stronger.

Yet another victory for Salmond.

Well,
Think about it. Now there's no need for a 3rd option on the referendum paper. You get the extra powers anyway then vote on a straight status quo v independence referendum. Alex, my hat's off to you sir.

#10 AM2

Yes they did. Most of the election was taken up by the Unionist parties telling us that the SNP would tear the world apart. Now they're planning to do it themselves at least to an extent.

Once this has happened of course then the relevance of the Union will be significantly diminished. Most Scots will understand that, see the benefits gained so and then want to go the whole hog.

AM2: You can almost hear the glove puppet master Sir Ek from Bute House: "That's the way to do it...".

These 3 parties have said for long enough that the Scottish parliament should have more powers.
If the unionist in Scotland were one party the nationalist would not be in power, the only reason that the SNP has more seats than any other party is because the unionist are split between 3 parties.
I would think that the separatist should have realised by now that when it come to the union these 3 parties will stand together, and so they should no matter what spin the SNP or their supporters try to put on it the fact is they are 3 separate parties.

Yes, 3 separate parties controlled from London !!!!

Precisely what growing numbers of Scots now oppose.

I don't see what the problem is - it means the status quo is dead - Devolution Max or independence is the choice now.

Walter,
The 3 parties are 1 and 2 that are imploding. I reckon The Greens and the SNP will increase number of MSPs next time and the nationalist block may well be a majority.

AM2

YOU are deluded.

Seriously deluded.

The SNP are splitting their sides as the Unionists trip over each other to deliver EXACTLY what the SNP wants.

#15 AM2

I have read it.. But Nicol Stephen obviously didn't.

#14 -Walter They couldn't agree on the time of day before AS scared them trouserless.
#15 AM2 'Fighting a losing battle' comes to mind.
Wish I'd gone to the loo before I read this. Laughing too hard for my own good.
Be back soon.

Leaders of the three major pro-union parties-the Libdems,Tories and Labour - will meet for private talks to discuss a complete overhaul of the Parliament's powers.

Aye right.

So, unionist intent for a public institution,our democratic institution of governance by the way; is to be discussed behind closed doors and in secrecy.

No change there then.
.

#16
Yes, 3 separate parties controlled from London !!!!

They are unionists they work for what is in Scotlands best interest within the UK (they listen to what Westminster has to say and either agree or disagree).

Precisely what growing numbers of Scots now oppose

So I keep reading on these types of forums, I have yet to see it on the streets.

#23 AM2 Your medication needs to be changed.
Their desperation is palpable, yet you continue to defend them.
What part of AS's resume as an economist don't you understand? This isn't someone who has spent his adult life intellectualizing, he has worked for a living in his chosen field.
Do you really believe, given his actions to date, he is operating in the realm of fantasy?

It's absolutely certain that the only reason we are seeing the opposition parties work together to effect change is because the SNP is in power. If Labour had won the election and the Lib Dems had gone into a partnership with them, neither would have made any effort to secure further powers for the parliament. The Lib Dems argued for change but would they have been able to do anything about it? I doubt it.

Now the prospect of Wendy Alexander giving the opposition a figurehead around whom they can unite has rekindled the phoney war of attrition we saw after the election. But does trawling out Lord Foulkes to pour scorn on any SNP story really do anything to raise the aspirations of the electorate in Scotland? Probably not. Labour have a long way to go to offer anything that will come near to satisfying a disgruntled electorate.

Even AM2 is welcoming the changes. Surely that's a sign of how far the SNP have moved the debate on Scotland's future. But I don't think the unionists should embrace triumphalism too much; there is no guarantee that the electorate will be satisfied with what the opposition parties have to offer. Who knows that they might not want just that little bit more?

AM2

"In fact, an improved form of devolution working even better for the people of Scotland would, I believe, further undermine the case for independence."

Uh huh ! That's why devolution came about in the first place. To undermine the SNP.

We now have an SNP Government driving the agenda and setting the pace at Hollyrood.

They have never been stronger.

I think the unionist strategy was as deluded then as you are now.

AM2,Glasgow.(9)posted at 1:19 am.

"Some things are best dealt with more locally at Holyrood and other things are more efficiently administered at a UK level."

Really,is that a fact.

So,it's local is it? As in region.

Care to cite an example of this "efficient administration.One that has not involved overspend, ineptness,delay and procrastination.
But above all else,one that has not taken other "party's" interests into consideration,or other influences into account outwith Scotland's best interests and Scotland's best interests alone.
.
Numpty.
.

According to AM2:

>>The Unionists want to make devolution work even
better. It's that simple.

But you are looking at this whole issue through the SNP’s gradualist prism, in which improving devolution is seen as setting us on some inevitable path towards independence. That's simply not the case.

In fact, an improved form of devolution working even better for the people of Scotland would, I believe, further undermine the case for independence.>>

I seem to recall a certain Lord George Robertson coming out with similar BS at the time of the original devolution "settlement". This was to mark the death knell of the SNP. Well, surprise, surprise, it did not. The more powers that are returned to Scotland then the more marginal the future of the Union becomes. This should be obvious to anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence. Now that the opposition parties are wanting to increase the powers of the Scottish Parliament, we are one step closer to the ultimate goal of political freedom for the Scottish people. The tides are flowing inexorably in that direction. No latter-day King Canute is going to make them change!

AM2 75%-80% of voters want a referendum. About the same percentage want more powers devolved in one way or another. The majority of those that have read it agree with the principles of the white paper that more power should be devolved to Scotland. 61% said they might consider voting for separation some time in the future.

That's the page I'm referring to. Only about 12% want the status quo.

The picture above: shouldn't Punch be wearing a funny hat with a bell on it?

"That's the way to do it..."

AM2 I'm off to bed as well, disappointed in your reply.
20+ years?
You shouldn't project your short/long term memory loss on to others. AS seems to have near perfect recall. I doubt HE has forgotten what he has learned, he certainly shows no sign of it.

This is the constant tactic: to tell people what they're thinking rather than try and win the argument. At the election they told us relentlessly that folks didn't want constitutional change. Then the nationalist party won power. Oh, but that was because Labour didn't connect, nothing to do with more powers. Now they all want more powers and are colluding to deliver. Labour have to answer this question. If people aren't interested in changing the consitution, why are you waisting time colluding with the Tories to achieve that objective? Oh, it's making devolution work better, not independence they want. Blah blah blah blah

Maybe we should compile a top 10 of unionist fantasy quotes. The belter of the o' has to be -

1) George Robertson: "Devolution would kill nationalism stone dead."

Any help people?

FROM THE SUNDAY TIMES:

'WENDY ALEXANDER has been dealt an embarrassing blow in her first week as Scottish Labour leader after footage emerged of her husband making a case for independence.

Professor Brian Ashcroft, policy director of the pro-Union economic think-tank, the Fraser of Allander Institute, was filmed arguing that Scotland would be more prosperous as a separate country than having full tax-raising powers as part of the UK.

Addressing a private seminar in May, Ashcroft said an independent Scotland would join an “arc of prosperity”, comprising other affluent small European states.

One of his wife’s first actions as leader was to commit to a review of the devolution settlement with the option of giving the Scottish parliament the power to raise all of the £30 billion it spends every year.

Ashcroft told delegates at an Edinburgh seminar organised by Visit Scotland, that full fiscal autonomy was “an absurdity” found nowhere else in the world. “Against that option, full-blown independence might be better, because . . . you can do many more things,” he added. “If you’re being forced to balance your books, then I think the logic is ‘be independent’, don’t do it within the Union. So you heard it here first - the argument for independence.”

Labour yesterday sought to play down the row, dismissing it as a “throwaway remark”. However, Pat Kane, who captured Ashcroft on video, said his comments were included in a Powerpoint presentation. “The reaction in the room was one of shock. People were thinking, ‘Did Brian Ashcroft just say that?’ ” said Kane.

Alex Neil, the nationalist MSP, said: “It must be be the first time in history there’s been a marital row over fiscal autonomy.”

Yesterday Ashcroft said his preferred option was for “fiscal federalism” where some, but not all, tax powers were devolved to Holyrood'.

Is the Internet wonderful or what !!!

This story is nowhere to be found in 'Scottish" newsp

Unionist Fantasy Quote...

No 2) AM2: "An improved form of devolution working even better for the people of Scotland would, I believe, further undermine the case for independence."

Poor Brian Ashcroft.... He'll be sleeping on the couch for a month !!!

This is fascinating - so what the Unionist parties are proposing is along the lines of "we think that Scotland would function better if the following (X number) of areas are governed from Scotland" with the intention that this will 'appease' the public of Scotland who want more power, but not independence?

I personally think that is very, very misguided. Its a sort of strip-burning approach, hoping that by burning the ground in front of the raging fire, it will somehow cut its fuel.

There are plenty of people in Scotland who are nervous of what indpendence might bring (as exploited by Labour through scaremongering) - some who think that we are not capable (more scaremongering), and a few who just think it is a step too far. I think that this will simply make Scots more comfortable with the idea of running our own country, especially if the SNP make a good job of it.

I've always held that politicians are, by nature, a greedy bunch. I've argued on here that full independence is more likely to return through a drip-drip of more powers being transferred, rather than a whole-sale, violent (in governence terms) movement to bring all the powers 'home'. This looks to me to be another few steps down the path.

Such a parcel o rogues in a nation.

what a tremendous job our parish cooncil is doing .
wonder what tony turncoat blair is thinking as he ponders his memoirs in a bunker in the middle east?now the people of scotland know the truth about our english parliament in westminster.wonder how england will fare after 300 years of abusing the world?
problem is only the upper and ruling classes of english society deserve the blame plus the english arse- licking scots that did their dirty work for them.

Benthehouse - I couldn't have put it better myself !

Wonderful stuff! A Labour / Tory / LibDem alliance! The phone lines from London must be burning up with instructions about what to do next.

Walter #24, you write that "They are unionists they work for what is in Scotlands best interest within the UK (they listen to what Westminster has to say and either agree or disagree)." Maybe, but they still have to do whatever Westminster tells them whether they agree or not.

Don't forget that the only political party leader in Hollyrood is Salmond. The others are merely regional branch managers, subordinate to their party leadership in London, and ultimately to the English voters.

If everyone is starting to sing from the same sheet, then fabulous. The SNP have had to run a consensus government and it has worked well so far. If anything this 'historic alliance' is born of unionist fear.

These moves should be welcomed by everyone, whether they want independence or not. They are certainly not anti-SNP....so Hootsman, why the aggressive headline about 'stealing thunder'

Well done Mr Salmond VERY clerel man.

In 1968 I was involved in a strike to force the Scottish Electrical Contractors (the independent Scottish employer’s organisation) to pay electricians the same wages as our English counterparts.

My employer at that time was a fervent nationalist spouting the case for independence.

Although proud of my heritage, it was and still is a different one from my former employer.

The notion that all Scots have a common interest is farcical. The ones most likely to benefit from the current debate are the Farmer's and Gloag's of this world who are hardly renowned for putting their workers considerations at the forefront of their plans.

Stephens , jamieson and mcletchie what an about turn from the losers, have they now seen the light and
accepted the fact that lies and spin dont win,
yes it is good to see them FOLLOWING SNP POLICY.

Hypocrites one and all.

# 37. MacIan

Absolutely brilliant. At last Pat "Pat Kane" Kane has done something worthwhile.

Pity the Sundays up here didn't run it. Although I think Pat "Pat Kane" Kane's wife works for the S.T. now.

Poor Ashcroft, four years on the sofa or in the weans room.

What a crowd of numpties the 3 unionist parties are - abandoning their election principles and mindlessy following the SNP direction. Meanwhile, justifiably in view of their miserable performance, the Scottish public opinion moves ever more towards independence - see this morning's Herald on Sunday on-line vote - over 67% for independence. Go over and vote yourselves!

You gotta laugh 3 parties who have learned nothing from the election,who are hopelessly out of touch with public opinion,SNP will be shaking with laughter at these wendy hoose proposals.

9 AM2

Oh really? then it begs the question as to why it hasnt happened before now. Didnt LIB LAB pact have long enough in power to shift devolved powers either way? so basically you are saying now that previously we were governed inefficiently at last something we can agree upon.

10 AM2

Yes they did! and you posted the same sentiments on many occasion during the election campaign.
Does your stupidity and hypocricy know no bounds?

14

No they didnt the Tories have said many times that powers should be taken away from the Scottish parliament and Labour have never claimed they would increase the powers of the Scottish parliament while they were in power and lets face it they had plenty of time and opertunity to do so.
Only the Lib Dems and the SNP amongst the larger parties spoke out for more powers so get yer facts right.

23 AM2

Yer entitiled to your delusions but who is it you think you are trying to convince? have you ever heard of anybody celebrating devolution day?
at least time you have expressed your view as an opinion and not tried to disguise it as a fact maybe your learning something at last.

28 AM2

And that is still more than any of the other parties polled and lets not forget Maggie Thatcher ran the entire UK with less than a 40 per cent mandate from the populous as has Blair, Wilson, Heath and most other UK PMs.

This really deserves a wider audience.

'ALEXANDER'S HUSBAND 'BACKS' INDEPENDENCE'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article232...

Blaw (#54) you're right.

An independent Scotland while the government party is being bankrolled by Scotland's arch-capitalist?
Scotland will never be free with "Such a parcel o rogues in a nation".

I am under the impression that our ambitious Unionist MSPs are looking at the own careers above following the party line down south I think they are starting to see the writing on the wall and are now manouvering into a postion to take advantage of a ground shift towards Independence. I forsee a time where there will be a split up of the Unionist parties North and South of the border with the Unionists MSPs becomming advocates for Independence and the setting up of their own power bases. I bet even the peoples princess of Paisley has her eye on the Scottish PM post. Personal power is why these people became politicians in the first place after all.

I wouldn't like to in his shoes when windy Wendy
wakes up.

62 Norbert

That is priceless how reliable is it? is it a non partisan source?

WENDY ALEXANDER has been dealt an embarrassing blow in her first week as Scottish Labour leader after footage emerged of her husband making a case for independence.

Professor Brian Ashcroft, policy director of the pro-Union economic think-tank, the Fraser of Allander Institute, was filmed arguing that Scotland would be more prosperous as a separate country than having full tax-raising powers as part of the UK.

Addressing a private seminar in May, Ashcroft said an independent Scotland would join an “arc of prosperity”, comprising other affluent small European states.

One of his wife’s first actions as leader was to commit to a review of the devolution settlement with the option of giving the Scottish parliament the power to raise all of the £30 billion it spends every year.

Ashcroft told delegates at an Edinburgh seminar organised by Visit Scotland, that full fiscal autonomy was “an absurdity” found nowhere else in the world. “Against that option, full-blown independence might be better, because . . . you can do many more things,” he added. “If you’re being forced to balance your books, then I think the logic is ‘be independent’, don’t do it within the Union. So you heard it here first - the argument for independence.”

Labour yesterday sought to play down the row, dismissing it as a “throwaway remark”. However, Pat Kane, who captured Ashcroft on video, said his comments were included in a Powerpoint presentation. “The reaction in the room was one of shock. People were thinking, ‘Did Brian Ashcroft just say that?’ ” said Kane.

Alex Neil, the nationalist MSP, said: “It must be be the first time in history there’s been a marital row over fiscal autonomy.”

Yesterday Ashcroft said his preferred option was for “fiscal federalism” where some, but not all, tax powers were devolved to Holyrood

63

I agree its time our political parties were funded by the population and not from personal sourses and potential pressure groups only then we will be listened to fully.

Read the article Jock.

MacIan posted it in the wee hours at #37.

Pat "Pat Kane" Kane shot the video at some private debate in May. The Sunday Times have the video.

'WENDY ALEXANDER has been dealt an embarrassing blow in her first week as Scottish Labour leader after footage emerged of her husband making a case for independence.

Professor Brian Ashcroft, policy director of the pro-Union economic think-tank, the Fraser of Allander Institute, was filmed arguing that Scotland would be more prosperous as a separate country than having full tax-raising powers as part of the UK.

Addressing a private seminar in May, Ashcroft said an independent Scotland would join an “arc of prosperity”, comprising other affluent small European states.

One of his wife’s first actions as leader was to commit to a review of the devolution settlement with the option of giving the Scottish parliament the power to raise all of the £30 billion it spends every year.

Ashcroft told delegates at an Edinburgh seminar organised by Visit Scotland, that full fiscal autonomy was “an absurdity” found nowhere else in the world. “Against that option, full-blown independence might be better, because . . . you can do many more things,” he added. “If you’re being forced to balance your books, then I think the logic is ‘be independent’, don’t do it within the Union. So you heard it here first - the argument for independence.”

Labour yesterday sought to play down the row, dismissing it as a “throwaway remark”. However, Pat Kane, who captured Ashcroft on video, said his comments were included in a Powerpoint presentation. “The reaction in the room was one of shock. People were thinking, ‘Did Brian Ashcroft just say that?’ ” said Kane.

Alex Neil, the nationalist MSP, said: “It must be be the first time in history there’s been a marital row over fiscal autonomy.”

Yesterday Ashcroft said his preferred option was for “fiscal federalism” where so

69

like I said absolutely priceless. Its like reading a script from Some Mothers do Have them or ever decreasing circles.

28 You really are a silly fellow,in fact you are a bigger dinosaur than me!!

The future of politics is now nationalist v unionist.
No more Labour v Tories or SNP v Labour etc.
You are either a unionist or a nationalist. One, if not more of the unionist Parties will no survive. My money is on the Lib-Dems, perhaps the Tories.
But also, are the grass rootes Labour supporters happy to be in bed with the Tories ?
The unionists ganging up on nationalists is all too predictable. On the road to independence, this was always going to happen.

However, SNP sources last night declared themselves "delighted" by the move, arguing they were forcing the pace of change.

And you cant argue with that. I have been an SNP supporter for years but even I cant really believe how effective and clever they have been since taking control I am more confident now that independence is on its way than I have ever been.

Based on the breathtaking spin that the aptly named SOS headline writer puts on this, I look forward to the following headline in the not too distant future:

"UNIONIST ALLIANCE STEALS SNP THUNDER BY PROMOTING FULL INDEPENDENCE - NATS NOW IRRELEVANT"

the S.N.P Drones response Is so predictable they have become totally underwhelming.Shame to point out the pro-union parties at holyrood can put out the S.N.P executive any time they want. And with this new consensus they only have to decide a common Agenda to achieve 'Power'
Leading to the removal of the S.N.P Administration.

"However, there is sure to be some resistance within Tory and Labour ranks over further transfer of powers to Holyrood. Consequently, senior Labour figures are understood to believe the forum should also debate whether some powers should be handed back to Westminster."

That's only fair. We couldn't have a significant body of Scottish opinion excluded from the debate, could we? Well, clearly the opinions of those in favour of independence have to be ignored because that's the British way of democracy but we won't talk about that.

A Forum, consisting of :-
Kauffy Jamieson; tenure as Justice Minister just exposed as an abject failure by Audit Scotland,
Nicol 'beige' Stephen, Wee Joke McConman's faithful manservant, and
'Taxi for' (that's about it) McLetchie - ?
That trio of numpties will certainly have Alex Salmond lying awake at night !
Love to be a fly on the wall at breakfast in the Alexander Hoose this morning, btw !!

#75 Jings, anti-democratic as well as bitter HYDB?

I love it..... Panic on the streets of Dundee

am2 the unionist parties campaigned on the platform that there was no need for more powers for the scottish parliament,now it would appear that they have changed their minds and you assert that it is because they want devolution to work better. if that is the case why were they not campaigning for more powers in the first place. they are running scared trying to stop the snp. the parties in powerin the scottish parliament should not be tied up in any way with those which run westminster.

75

Another deluded soul believe me if that were true then nothing would stop them doing it. I for one would love another election about now because I guarantee it will increase the number of SNP MSPs in parliament significantly and all the Unionist politicians believe that as well they are not stupid just lazy and incompetant.
The policies asking for more power to Parliament is a result of the Unionists playing catch up.
The SNP have shown them the way and now all they can do is follow or pay the consequences in the polls.
Try facing reality for once yer negativity and scarmongering are the tactics of the 70s and aint effective anymore.

Brown hit by new sleaze row over Labour funds - From The Sunday Times - August 26, 2007

LABOUR is facing an official inquiry into an alleged front organisation, financed by millionaire Muslim businessmen, which has donated more than £300,000 to the party.

Imran Khand, a Glasgow-based entrepreneur, is revealed as a leading financial backer behind Muslim Friends, which funnelled £100,000 a month to Labour between March and June.

As his money is paid to Muslim Friends - rather than directly to the Labour party - his identity has until now remained secret. The Electoral Commission is probing whether Labour has broken laws on the disclosure of donations by hiding the true source of its financing.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article232...

Salmond already shown he can't stand up to these other parties, together.

The SNP executive broke their manifesto pledge and allowed the trams through, running scared of a vote of no confidence.

So, when faced with an utter waste of our money in the tram scheme, when faced with rubber stamping a scheme that will bring traffic chaos to Edinburgh, they chose political expediency and then tried to blame other parties for their own spineless action in not using their executive powers to stop the sceme.

It's Salmond that has proven he is more interested in self interest that prinicples, he will be found out. This from a previous 20 year SNP supporter!

#75 howyoudoingboy

The "pro-union" parties have always had many members, supporters and voters who are also in favour of Independence for Scotland. The unionist party leaders, taking their instructions from London, are alienating themselves from the electorate. Sooner or later those prepared to vote for independence will outnumber those wanting to stay in the union. It is just a matter of continuing to build confidence in Scotland's ability to run its own affairs, the natural state for any country.

Good debate, too few troll comments to kill it. Let's leave aside AM2's description of the SNP "delighted" response as being triumphalist (eh?).

The Unionist parties are desperate, cracks will start to show in this alliance when pressure is applied. What happens when one party fundamentaly disagrees with another over one or other powers.

AM2 spins this as attempting to make devolution work better. That won't wash, this is an attempt at forging an alliance on the one core principle they all agree on...The Union; it's about saving that at any cost.

These parties have announced a conversation and debate that will censor any mention of independence. In other words, anyone supporting or thinking of supporting independence is to be ignored.

This would be like this comment board preventing one side of the argument from participating in the online debate, almost fascistic in it's nature.

#23. AM2, Glasgow
"The Unionists want to make devolution work even better. It's that simple."

Bollocks.

The Unionists are running scared. It's that simple.

83

You just dont get it he doesnt have to stand up to them he only has to show them in their true light to the electorate who can and will stand up to them.
The tram fiasco has been shown up as just that because the SNP took control. If we still had the Lab/Lib pact then the spin and deceit would have hidden the true cost with the extra payments comming from increased council taxation.
The SNP wont hide the Tram farce as they have put their opposition very clearly on record. This will be a thorn in the side of the Unionist alliance and a nail in their collective coffins when the chickens come home to roost.

86

Now yer just being a troll. You probably always were.

"Unionists team up to steal SNP thunder over Holyrood powers"

OR:

Unionists team up to do SNP's job over Holyrood powers

Alex Salmond will have a big smile on his face when he reads this, he has managed to get all three unionist parties to get together to give Holyrood more powers. At the same time, by ruling out independence the unionists show themselves up as exclusive and allow the SNP to focus on independence.

If you can't beat 'em join 'em.

86 no vote no voice beat it.

Question for am2---What has caused this unnatural alliance of the unionist parties and why? Could it have something to do with the fact that the S.N.P. has revealed the spinning and corruption which has been prevalent over the the term of the last administration?

Could not care less,it does not matter or what or who,if they are fighting for my country they get my vote.It all helps as we move to being an independent nation again,does that not sound nice.

more devolution is giving more independent powers to the parlaiment
the SNP will be happy

funniest scrambling by AM2 in a long time...

couple of points -

The SNP want a *public debate* on the future of scotland's governance

The unionists want to decide whats best for us *in private*

The unionists *there is no doubt* have been forced down this path through a dawning realisation that the SNP were actually doing what most people want (80% for referendum)

AM2 suggests we have a nationalist 'prism' - I would suggest he has unionist 'myopia' and needs a prism or a lens to open his eyes to what is going on in politics in Scotland.

To suggest further devolved powers will settle the independence debate is fatally flawed in thelong term - I actually agree with AM2 that it will stifle the want probably, but in the *short term only*. I have no doubt that in years to come, with more devolved power, independence would naturally follow.

The so called opposition now working for the SNP government ! Fantastic if it comes to fruition, will save Alex Salmond a lot of time and fruitless effort as the opposition would have voted down any SNP moves in this direction.

#30 Lyndsey sums it all up rather succinctly.

The strategy of devolution lite was introduced as a means of heading the SNP off at the pass.
The success or otherwise of this strategy can be judged by the fact that we now have a SNP government.

Having returned to their homes and reconsidered their options, the unionists have come up with a cunning plan. ”Let us go for devolution plus!“ they cry, almost in unison. Seemingly oblivious to the fact that their previous strategy of appeasement has been singularly unsuccessful.

Having tasted a modicum of power, the electorate now see the benefits of even greater self-determination.
The SNP have raised the bar of expectation.
Those unionists arguing for a return of powers to Westminster have been marginalised to the point of ridicule, (Lord Foulksakes anyone?).

The independence caravan trundles on, and Scotland awakes!

Love it,love it, love it!!!!

C'mon Scotland!!!!

Whit a trio that is then.
McLetchie, Stephen, and Jamieson....DUH !!

QUISLINGS all !!

Are we happy to leave Scotland's future in the hands of these intellectual pygmies??....I think NOT !

This is yet another example of the unionist parties continued ignorance of why they were defeated at the last election...........its time they woke up to the changing mood in Scotland.

Well done Mr Alex Salmond First Minister... No a very well done...

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that first meeting. Can you imagine it with Wendy throwing a hissy fit when someone fails to agree with her? (That is if anyone gets a word in). What a union that will be.

I am sure all those voters that stuck with Labour in the May elections in the Lanarkshire and Glasgow / Paisley areas are really happy they have formed a coalition opposition with the Tories.

I am sure that is exactly what they wanted! ( I expect they are not too happy but I could be wrong)

All three Unionist parties campaigned on NO NEW powers for the Scottish parliament. All three Unionist parties warned of the 'dire' consequences of the Scottish parliament gaining NEW powers. After the Scottish elections all three Unionist parties RENEWED their claims that NEW powers for the Scottish parliament were NOT needed.

100 days on and we have a Dim-Witteed Lib-Dem, an Incompetent and Wasteful Labourite and a Lying Tory say that they are to gang together. You know what will happen the Scottish parliament will be STRIPPED of power.

Yes, when the Scotland Act is revisted Scottish Labpour MPs and English Tory MPs will form an even bigger gang and will CRIPPLE the parliament we have.

The stage is now being set for a huge gang fight between Unionist Holyrood MSPs and Unionist Westminster MPs.

Welcome to the Unionist Dividend - Unionist politicians - a bigger bunch of lying, corrupt and criminal muppets you could not find.

Good response from the parties representing the majority Scottish opinion.
This will make it easier to identify the SNP as the minority view. The SNP will become ever more strident in trying to distance themselves from a devolution which works.
The SNP's machinations will eventualy leave them high and dry - then watch their poll returns tumble.

What I find galling is that, finding there stance on Scotland is outdated and not in tune with the voter, the unionists, who were actually invited to join in the national conversation, choose to discuss between themselves in private (a bit like spoilt children), reasons which are not clear, but can only assume that its to ensure that the instructions from London are followed. Then once they have worked out a 'unified' front will dictate to the people of Scotland what London wants them to think!
Yes they want to have a convention, but thats AFTER they discuss the matter in private, which tells me that the unioists will present a unified front at any convention and push there own unified agenda through the convention. A bit like a cartel really!
The unionist parties are just showing themselves up for what the really are, thats opportunists

4

Indeed mate!

This has far more to do with salvage some desperate brownie points ,(or be blown away by a party who have both hands tied behind their back ,and still punch harder than the Unionists),than it ever has to do with create good governance.What do they intend to devolve?
Only an idiot would vote for a "more power "proposal when we have no indication of what is proposed.
Ive already suggested elsewhere it is probably control over any monsters discovered in Loch Ness, and the right to issue Haggis hunting licences.
When they devolve the taxes CURRENTLY paid in Scotland so that they can be spent in Scotland,then I might be a little bit impressed.Extra taxation however,in a country which already pays more than its fair share of taxes,is not really benefiting Scotland since we are paying tax increases to replace taxes we already pay which subsidise the rest of The United Kingdom(but I'm duty bound to say that some regions benefit and some are like Scotland, just a source of revenue).

Real benefits to Scotland are unlikely,and if they do exist they are meaningless and far more to do with what Westminster can live without, than what Scotland can seriously use.
Your thoughts are as always of interest!
TIME WILL TELL.

Probably it will tell us this time IT REALLY IS TIME!

109
Dennis
You say devolution works.Its the SNP who were voted into Holyrood as the largest party and that makes a slight difference !

The SNP works you mean!
If devolution worked then New Labour would not have been kicked out!

Wonder when the first unionist MSP will defect to the SNP?

Walter 24
"They are unionists ,they work for what is in Scotlands best interest within the UK etc. etc.

Well Walter between 1964 and 2004 the westminster unionist parties have masterminded the stagnation of Scotlands population at 5.1 million.
We are the only country in western europe to show ZERO growth during this 40 year period.
Compare this with our fellow small nations which are doing so much better than ourselves economically.

country/ 1964popn/2004popn/%increase
Iceland/ 0.2/ 0.3/ 50%
Luxembourg/ 0.3 /0.5 / 67%
N.Ireland /1.4 / 1.7 / 21%
Wales / 2.6 / 2.9 / 12%
Eire /2.8/ / 4.2 / 50%
Norway / 3.7 / 4.8 / 30%
Finland / 4.5 / 5.3 / 18%
Denmark / 4.7 / 5.6 / 19%
Scotland / 5.1 / 5.1 / ZERO ZERO
Switzerland / 5.8 / 7.5 / 29%
Austria / 7.2 / 8.3 / 15%
Sweden / 7.6 / 9.2 / 21%
Greece / 8.5 / 11.1 / 31%
Portugal / 9.0 / 10.6 / 18%
Belgium / 9.3 / 10.4 / 9%
All increases except Scotland.
Wher would we be without the 600,000 English born now resident in Scotland many of the good -life or retirement age.
Without them we would be showing a percentage DECREASE OF 12%.during the past 40 years.
For Gods sake ! even N Ireland with people fleeing the troubles is showing an increase of 21%.
How many of our brightest and best have we had to lose during this period due to lack of opportunities at home?
We have been haemorrhaging our brightest and best for generations.
Westminster has masterminded us into
a vast retirement home with the beaurocracy of a former soviet satellite with an extremely unhealthy and unsustainable level of welfare dependency.
The larger european countries have also grown during the 40-year period above.

Netherlands / 12.0 / 16.3 / 36%
Spain / 31.1 / 45.0 / 45%
England / 43.4 / 50.4 / 16%
Italy / 50.5 / 59.0 / 17%
Germany / 74.8 / 82.3 / 10%
U.K. /

Funny all these posts complaining about parties being inconsistent about devolution. Parties have always been inconsistent. I remember the seventies when Alex Salmond and the SNP campaigned against the Common Market. Now they are more pro-EU than any of the others. But they never explained why they changed their minds or apologised for being wrong in the first place.
The Labour Party spent the whole of the 20th century saying that public ownership was the future. In the 21st century they think that privatisation is best. No apology. No explanation.
I look forward to the Tories embracing social housing as well as hoodies, the Greens embracing nuclear power stations and the SNP saying that the English or their best pals. Damn. They've already done that.

The Unionists are absolutely rattled.
AS and his party are playing the proverbial blinder.
AM2 ,Royster and all those Unionist apologist cannot spin this one .
These same political pygmies that told us pre election that we needed no more powers have gone full circle and actually endorsed the SNP policy of gradualism.
It takes a long time to eat an elephant and the grand white variety the Union is being eaten up and discarded in small chunks every day,little by little.
in an act of self preservation the Unionists try to throw the people of Scotland a few more sops.
The stupidity of not allowing any discussion on Independence actually strengthens the argument for it ,do they never learn???
The more they tell the Scots what they can and cannot have or do, the more likely they will get a drubbing in the ballot box.
Bring on a nice by-election or the UK General Election I cannot wait.
The Scottish nation are at last awake to the Unionist lies and deceit,and as our history shows we are slow to rouse but when we do awaken ,nothing and nobody will force us into submission.
Alba

47 Calgacus said:-
"Don't forget that the only political party leader in Hollyrood is Salmond. The others are merely regional branch managers, subordinate to their party leadership in London, and ultimately to the English voters."
Robin Harper?

And, actually, the leaders of Unionist parties in Holyrood don't have to do what their UK-party headquarters tell them to do. What would happen to them? Their UK-leaderships would expel them? You saw how well that worked with Ken Livingstone. Rodri Morgan was also not the man Blair wanted. The leaders of the three Unionist parties in Scotland are in a position to tell their UK-leaderships what to do about Scotland constitutionally - more so than ever before, that is. Another spin-off of the SNP surge/victory.

If these columns' commentators were typical of the SNP reaction to their victory then it'd end in tears. Believing one's own propaganda is the pride that causes the fall. Alex should be your cue - he seems to understand that the pro-Independence argument would not necessarily have been won even if the SNP got a majority in Holyrood. Remember what happened in Quebec - twice.

All this stuff about traitors and Quislings would be putting people even more off Independence - if the SNP MSPs were coming out with it. Pleae, all you nastier nats, stay here and froth your poison where few can see you. It's the best thing you could do for the cause of Scottish Independence.

109 - don't know how you can claim the LibDems, Labour and Tories 'represent the majority of Scottish opinion' - Opinion on what, exactly? Maybe on 'Independence' (for the moment), but a vote for the treacherous trio was no more a vote for the Union than it was for the Embra TramCar (growing) Fiasco. There's reportedly a huge majority now in favour of a referendum, at least - the 'alliance' don't trust us to have one. Most people used to vote according to either tribal loyalty or family tradition - the SNP have broken that mould. Alex will be happy to let them howl away at the moon; if they come any with any good ideas then his Executive will just adopt them and the opposition will hardly be able to 'oppose'. Masterly!

Nicol Stephen: new forum would 'not even consider independence'

and maybe some libdems will eventually tell Nicol this kin dof patronising attitude is why his party are losing support on a daily basis.

I must say, if Salmonds 'discussion' had not included the option to enhance devolution, then the unionists current stance would be worthwhile - as it is, they were beaten to this post last week by the SNP.

Another unionist own-goal.

What a suprise; the unionist parties are developing a policy in order to 'thwart the SNP'.

Why can't they just do something that will be beneficial to Scotland?

These were the same people who insisted that more powers for the Scottish Parliament would be a bad thing. Does that mean that they were lying before? Or that they actually do think more powers are bad, but they don't really care?

Either way it speaks of a parcel of rogues who are only interested in their own narrow party interests.

113 Morris

Bit of a circular arguement that. SNP have never wanted devolution - that's why their inept attempt at appearing to 'change their spots' in -what looks like a half-way house in their "conversation" - is so easy to attack.

123 TTE
Majority opinion re independence. They also contain the views of the majority of the electorate at the last election.
A positive political direction which stimulates Scottish growth and effective government within the Union is a vote winner. SNP have at least shaken them up enough to realise this.

In the end the SNP 'bus' has 'Independence Avenue' on the destination board - passengers will, thus, either not get aboard or leave at the stop before it diverges from the desired route.
The only ploys the SNP will have left- will be
a) Pretend the bus is going somewhere else ('devolotion street') and hope that passengers don't realise its going somewhere else before its too late.

b) Keep the board as 'Independence Avenue' via 'Devolution Street', but jam the doors shut and disable the stopping bell after the bus leaves the common route.

Either way - it will be left increasingly desperate and politically isolated.

#78 Norbert Dentressangle

#75" Jings, anti-democratic as well as bitter HYDB?"

Since when has rule by a 'Minority' become Democratic. Oh I know it's all right for ultra-nationalists but not for 'Majority' pro-union parties.
Democracy S.N.P. style very fair......
And (a) I dont drink bitter only lager (b) who the hell is jings sounds a bit middle class English to me.

#123 Thomas the Tank

"don't know how you can claim the LibDems, Labour and Tories 'represent the majority of Scottish opinion' "
uh...Because their are more of them both MSPs and voters.
Perhaps we are starting to see the Idea of the S.N.P one party state developing with the S.N.P supporters.

Or are they just Imagineering a different political landscape. One that fits with their Nationalist Delusions. As the current political reality differs markedly.

47 Calgacus said:-
"Don't forget that the only political party leader in Hollyrood is Salmond. The others are merely regional branch managers, subordinate to their party leadership in London, and ultimately to the English voters."
Robin Harper?

And, actually, the leaders of Unionist parties in Holyrood don't have to do what their UK-party headquarters tell them to do. What would happen to them? Their UK-leaderships would expel them? You saw how well that worked with Ken Livingstone. Rodri Morgan was also not the man Blair wanted. The leaders of the three Unionist parties in Scotland are in a position to tell their UK-leaderships what to do about Scotland constitutionally - more so than ever before, that is. Another spin-off of the SNP surge/victory.

If these columns' commentators were typical of the SNP reaction to their victory then it'd end in tears. Believing one's own propaganda is the pride that causes the fall. Alex should be your cue - he seems to understand that the pro-Independence argument would not necessarily have been won even if the SNP got a majority in Holyrood. Remember what happened in Quebec - twice.

All this stuff about traitors and Quislings would be putting people even more off Independence - if the SNP MSPs were coming out with it. Pleae, all you nastier nats, stay here and froth your poison where few can see you. It's the best thing you could do for the cause of Scottish Independence.

Until the Scottish Parliament has proper tax raising powers it will never have credibility. Is there any other country in the the world with a parliament that does not raise taxes?
Each state in the USA has far more powers in everything including taxation but are still part of the Union.

Sorry - accidentally posted the same bit twice:-(

#23 AM2

You say "In fact, an improved form of devolution working even better for the people of Scotland would, I believe, further undermine the case for independence"

This has all the flavour of George Robertson's comment a decade ago when he said that devoution would kill off "stone dead" support for the SNP. Somehow I think you are developing a strong tendency to wishful thinking.

Well, they do say that,

"Imitatation is the sincerest form of flattery"

Funny how the other Parties are suddenly u-turning, to follow the SNP standard?

Yours etc

Angus Whitton

Under hand, cheating, crying brats, what ever. The SNP were voted in by the public which would appear to count for nothing. Who's country is this?

Why didn't the Labour/Lib Dem coalition seek these powers before?

As ever, Scotland only moves forward when it votes SNP. Labour and the Lib Dems deserve to be out in the cold due to years of complacency and laziness.

Seems like the BritNats are dancing to Salmond's tune. Keep on.

Nach cum sinn oirnn gu saorsa slan?

It could be you Wendy if you can suppress grotesque ambitions of young Unionist non-liberal Fogey Nicol.

Helen Clarke NZ PM has been leader of a precarious alliance minority government since 1999.

I believe Helen has the better lips though.

I read we Scots are now probably going to have to cough up to protect London from floods... This will paid for by taxpayers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6964281.stm

SO THE 3 As HAVE DECIDED TO JUMP INTO BED. AND DO THEIR DAMNDEST TO WRECK WHATEVER PLANS THE SNP HAVE FOR TAKKING SCOTLAND AND HER PEOPLE FORWARDS.WERENT THEY LISTENING TO THE SCOTS WHEN SO MANY OF THEM WERE REJECTED AT THE POLLS? THE ELECTORATES TOP PRIORITY IS TO SEE ALL THE PARTIES WORKING TOGETHER AND THESE HALFWITS KNOW IT. SICKENING AND GOING AGAINST THE PEOPLES WISHES CAN ONLY LEAD TO EVEN MORE DISCONTENT PUBLIC NO MATTER HOW MUCH LYING THE UNIONISTS TELL THEM.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the "Alliance" might actually try to use their majority to hand back powers to Westminster...

AND SO MCLETCHIE, NICHOL AND JAMIESON SHOULD BE VERY WARY OF THE ILL THOUGHT PLANS IN WRECKING WHATS THE PEOPLES PARLIAMENT . GO AHEAD AND HAVE YOUR WEE FORUMS BUT THE SOONER YOU FOOLS WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE THE BETTER!!

Sounds as if the SNP referendum should be a multi option one so we can vote on the future of the parliament.

Option one. We go back to the set up pre 1999 where the Scottish Office run everything.
Option two. We keep devolution the way it is. No new powers for the Scottish Parliament.
Option three. We give the Scottish Parliament new powers short of independence.
Option four. We give Scotland full independence from England and let the Scottish Parliament decide Scotland's affairs.

#130 Carel

Good point . The Nats have had their glory and fun too - and well deserved, it was a long wait. But it's negative and giving AM2 & Co easy targets.

So it's fifth column rules now - divide and conquer.

As I am naturally an extreme liberal...her goes: Ahem.

'Nicol Stephen LL.B is an excellent young leader a dedicated liberal blah blah etc etc. '

Labour are belatedly taking stock of why they were so poor at the last election. Some of them realise that their normal rump of votes they depend on in Scotland is based on a hand out left wing dogma. If they push back to the left, the likelihood is that they will win back a lot of the voters that jumped into bed with the SNP.
What the Nats need to watch out for is that Broon has an opportunity to make life difficult for the SNP. He hands out the loot, £30bn, and can set things up in such away that the SNP could be forced into using the extra 3% tax levy they have at their disposal. Taxing people that are already paying massive amounts of stealth and other taxes isn't a vote winner. The Labour party will point to the SNP using the tax levy and say there you go, no fiscal probity, just think how bad it would be if this lot conned you into independence.

49 Bentethoose-fellow Nats got rid of that bugger AM2-so tolerant,so fair so evenhanded with an attitude that so charms that it is bound to win the hearts and minds of the dwindling band of Unionist doubters to your cause. Who could fail to be captivated by such reasoned argument.
51 Joe -right on
53 Eric-Aye Alex is a very clerer man!
8 Lindsey Glasgow-London Puppetmeisters!?? You really believe your own nat propoganda
116 Jim AA-with the world breeding itself towards a demographic catastrophe within the lifetime of our Grandchildren ZPG or in the case of India,China negativePG is the only sensible thing to strive for. Scotlands stable population is something to cherish
PS Thought the SNP had no problem with the English or Muslims. So whats your prob with 500 000 English.Their blood is the same as yrs and many of them vote SNP!!
127 Richardino-parcel of rogues only interested in their own narrow party interests. Like Alick and the SNP arent!!
130 Carel-wise words
141 Dick-absolute rubbish!

Love it! Bring it on Nats!

All Jedi Knights must now unite and stand firm against The Alliance.

One of the funniest one line comments ever has to be Rowan Atkinsons comment in"Black Adder"-"Evening Peasants!"
Dont know why I thought of that.Honest.

#137 Good point. Scotland only moves forward when the SNP are strong. The rest of the time Lab. LD,s and Tories are content to sit on their a@@@s and spend tax-payers money achieving nothing.

As other people have said, and should be repeated time and time again. If this is such a burning issues with Nicol Stephen now, why wasn't it just a few months ago when he was Scotland's Deputy First Minister.

He is a liar, and has such arrogance for someone who leads a party with only 8% voter popularity, tell the voting public that he knows what they want better than they do themselves.

Mr Stephen, you may not have noticed, but you are no longer DFM.

AM2

One thing that absolutely amazes me about so many of you Unionists is how blind you are to new thinking especially if it touches on Scottish independence.

Will Nicol and his chums talk about independence if we agree to call it 'magic moonbeams' instead?
You know fiscal powers,etc?

Let's all compete to make Scotland less dependent on London, but for goodness sake don't use the 'I' word.

I'm grinning from ear to ear, priceless.

161 Methalions- still laughing!!
Honest and I mean really-honest!

AM2: Glad to see I managed to push a few of your buttons. From some comments of yours before the election, I believe you may be a Tory supporter. Members of that party have stated that the Scottish Government should be dissolved and power handed back to Westminster. Labour's Hurricane Jeck campaigned on a platform of "no further powers necessary". All three parties campaigned, not FOR Scotland, but AGAINST the SNP, thus effectively campaigning on a platform of "we are not capable of governing ourselves".

In one respect they were right. If the Scottish Government were led by the current Lab, Tories or LD's or any combination thereof, that bunch of followers would be able to govern Scotland.

The Adam Smith Institute:
Independent Scotland: A Road to Riches

If an independent Scotland chose to follow the Republic of Ireland’s low-tax route, as SNP leader Alex Salmond has indicated it would, Scotland’s growth rate might be expected, over a five-year period, to move closer to Ireland’s trend growth rate of 7 percent. Given a further five years of Scottish growth at that trend level, and before diminishing returns set in, Scotland’s growth over the ten-year period would put its index 71.5 higher, more than a two-thirds increase in GDP.

By contrast, says Stein, the rest of the UK would be expected to have grown rather less, by just over a quarter. The result would be dramatic for Scotland. Measured in household income per head, Scotland, which started £1,700 behind the rest of the UK, could be expected to be £6,000 ahead of it at the end of that period.

http://www.adamsmith.org/index.php/main/individual/indepe...

Unless of course you prefer to stay poorer.

The three Uncle Tom parties will do anything except allow Scotland to control its oil revenues and its own defence. They must think we're dafties if they try to palm off another toothless Devolution Lite on us. London rule has had its day.

#166

Quite. The Tories, who AM2 represents, have asserted themselves as *the* unionist party in Scotland and indeed the UK. They have campaigned continuously under that banner and it has continuously failed.

The reason it has failed is because the union is deeply unpopular in Scotland and, at best, is only tolerated by people who still have a touch of the jitters about independence. As these attacks of the jitters begin to subside, more and more people are turning to independence with new found confidence, which is a result of the fact that independence is clearly the better option for scotland on all levels.

Labour, Tories and LDs now have no room to manoeuvre because their arguments simply no longer hold up to the argument for independence. They are dying a slow and painful death. Whatever they do now will simply play into the hands of the SNP. It's a checkmate situation, really.

Since the Holyrood election one thing always amazes me about Nicol Stephen. Maybe it's just me thinking this. He talks about getting various things done, about improving Scotland, as if he were still Deputy First Minister. The only thing is, for whatever reason, he refused to go back into coalition with Labour. If he wants to get the things done that he says he does, why didn't he take his party back into coaltion for a third term with Labour? Surely, he could have come to agreement with Labour about an agenda for the remainder of this parliament.

#152 AM2

You obviously do not have a a pair of S.N.P Tartan tinted glasses. guaranteed to give everything you view a Nationalist hue.
To be worn with the latest S.N.P hearing aid which translates each and every received verbal communication into a pro S.N.P diatribe.

Thus armed the typical S.N.P drone can venture out into the world sure in knowledge all they can hear or see. Will be an Overwhelmingly censored Nationalist outlook on the 'Real World'

And if reality begins to intrude into their Nationalist Reverie. There are volume controls on the hearing aid to blank out sound. And the Tartan tinted glasses come with a free pair of blinkers to block out unwelcome sights (such as opinion polls) at variance with S.N.P 'Dogma'.

#171

Your deceptiveness is again coming to the fore, AM2. The last poll showed that 23% of Scots would vote for independence if there was a referendum TOMORROW.

In the meantime, there was a huge percentage who were favourable towards independence under a variety of circumstances but who obviously felt that tomorrow was too soon to give it the go ahead.

It is clear that the main trend in Scotland, among Scots in general, is in favour of a gradualist approach towards independence or, among some, a wait and see policy as regards the performance of the SNP and/or Scotland's performance under increased powers for devolution.

This pleases neither me (who wants independence asap) nor you (who wants to hang on to the union for the whole of eternity). However, I am confident that I will be more pleased than you in the long run, as the poll (if you link to it) clearly shows.

60% of Scots think the country will be independent before too long. I would say that this probably reflects the percentage of people who actually want it to happen if and when the circumstances feel right for them.

177Howyoudoinboy-Howrya doin! Nice one!

As a Unionist though I am not so sure that this Unionist Front thing is such a good idea. Voters might see it as ganging up against the SNP creating a sympathy backlash.

Serious Question from an old(er) computerphobe-whats the quickest way of updatin this page? I have been going back to "Main Stories" and then returning to the story whereby it of course updates. Is there a quicker way-can I jus click some button?
My son aint here.

The unionist parties have had what, 8 years now to do something about increasing powers, and have done nothing. However, just over 100 days after the SNP won the election they are all falling over themselves to be seen to be doing something. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to see why this is, but is doing it behind closed doors and excluding other parties really the best way for the country and its people?
As for your quoting numbers from polls, AM2, there have been various such poll figures bandied about recently and all differ. The only way to KNOW what support is there is to ask ALL the people.

#179 - How does the 23% you refer to relate to winning a referendum and also, the election results in May?

#177

I would urge people who complain about over-zealous Nats to compare the sheer arrogance of unionist posters like this idiot at #177.

The over-zealous Nats can be forgiven for their stupid posts because they are fuelled so much by their passion for independence. Unionists don't have that excuse.

This guy at 177 is just an all-out wet-headed oaf with nothing to say about anything. He just drips and drips his vitriol into a little dirty puddle of vitriol that is very unfunny and, so, quickly drains away and out of sight.

He sums up everything about the attitude of unionists - the arrogance, the absence of legitimate arguments and the constant attempts to ridicule Scotland.

Are there any rational unionists out there who we can take seriously?

I can't remember seeing any.

#179 absolutely correct.
It is inevitable that Independence for Scotland will happen in my lifetime, just as inevitable as an overspend on the Edinburgh Trams project (forced through by the Unionists).

#188 - Mercat. I must take issue with your description of howyoubleatingboy (177) - he is nowhere near as smart as you paint him.

I'll have a double nationalist reverie, with ice please.

#188 - do you think that possibly yours is the most arrogant post on here today.

Ta Methalions-youre a pal.

Off the air for a couple of hours. Give me some material guys.
PS Thought Scotland played well yesterday-the scoreline didnt do them justice but u got to admit-Habana and co.-awesome! Now theres a nice southafrican!

#187 AM2 - Labour MPs have compared Alex Salmond to Hitler.... Yet again, trying to divert from serious discussion on constitutional future onto one of your fictitious SNP ant-English jamborees.

The case for Independence is beginning to stack up against the Unionist parties, who are now looking more like the three wise(sic) monkey's 'Here no Independence, See no Independece and Speak no Independence'!
We have the NAtional conversation, a vehicle set up by the SNP government allowing the whole of the Scottish people to have there say and discuss openly about there views and to get there input, we have the Adam Smith Institute putting forwarding the case that Indpendence would be good for Scotland and we have the Fraser of Allander Institute, which has also being puting the same case forward, now with Prof Ashcroft (aka Mr Wendy Alexander) also stating clearly that Independence is the way forward (as reported elswhere , caught on video and power point presentation - in case there are doubters).
So why do the three unionist parties choose to behalf like petulant spoilt brats?, perhaps they thought that Scotland could be kept down forever for there own betterment, who knows!

128
Dennis
A party whose reason for existing is independence, could hardly be seen to oppose devolution, since its a step forward toward their goal,but could equally never embrace it to the extent that it was in preference to their ultimate goal.
Thats just common sense !Apparently its not common enough to embrace you!
Thats precisely what the SNP have always done,favour what is best for Scotland given the current climate of change.
We move with the times.Thats why we are in the ascendency.

The suggestion otherwise is idiotic and owes far more to a lack of coherent argument than credibility.

The SNP vote has grown consistently despite a radio/ televison broadcast network and newspapers which will not give them the time of day. If thats not telling you something it should!

People are wakening up to reality.
Its even happening where you are ,and its gaining momentum and has gone too far now to fail.No party in history has ever achieved this level of support and not gone on to achieve governmnent.There may be a semi revival at the Westminster election and a proclamation that the SNP are dead once more,but rest assured that it will surface again and next time its BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE uk !ITS COMING!

#194 - God, does this mean we will have to read AM2's bleating obscurantist posts for another 20 years. Its too much.

188 Mercat Cross-deeply offended! I always considered myself to be rational and a Unionist!

177

Like I said standard troll.

198 Morris-how are you! A quick one-wot about my question yesterday-do you think the UK,USA and France shud unilaterally give up their nuclear weapons?

#193 - have you been scrolling past AM2 like most everyone else?

Lindsey Glasgow #154

I was thinking the same thing but can`t remember why. Except I`d gone down the road of Douglas Alexander being "Dark helmet" from Starwars spoof "Spaceballs".

This would be his attempt to change the election result and realising he-d screwed up the count:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvd3kaupZ60&mode=relat...=

142. Methalions - thanks for the words of welcome. I think I'll only be looking in now and again.

As to what I think of some of the Nattier troglodytes here? I'll leave that unanswered, except to say that in spite of them, on balance, I'd still like us to be Independent; but if their way of thinking came to dominate the SNP up to the top I'd change my mind for a decade or two. That's what I did in the '70s, the "It's our oil" billboard campaign, with all those greeting faces, was the last straw then.

Relax, Independistas, it's only political differences. Think, "we can all live quite happily with each other whether we get Independence or not" - it's easy when you try:-)

Taxi for Mckitchie?
Ms. Alexander would your husband agree?
Two great questions.
The internet certainly moves the debate along at pace and it looks like the unionists can't keep up.

#204 - not always but the post at 177 was pretty grim reading more or less translated to if you don't agree with me you are wrong. Bit like a born again Christian just wanting everyone to see the light. My view on people like that is that they themselves are ultimately insecure. He probably voted Labour at all the previous elections and now feels the burning zeal of the convert.

You can't say that for AM2, he continues to chant his own mantra, irrespective if whether anyone is listening or not.

The sad thing is half the Nats on here think it is more important to have a go at AM2 than discuss the story. Hopefully not a sign of the National conversation to come.

has anybody else spotted that Wendy might be single again shortly?

sorry.

It's clear from the actual article above (remember that guys) that the 3 Unionist parties are making it up as they go along. Nicol doesn't seem too sure what they are going to talk about etc.

For the opoositon to be talking about further transfer of powers to the Parliament is a step forward. I trust they are genuine about this?

ah, but:

"senior Labour figures are understood to believe the forum should also debate whether some powers should be handed back to Westminster"

Honestly, the SNP should be paying these guys! Go on yersel, the Fooksakes!

198 Morris

Like other SNP diehards - you tend to believe in your own rhetoric - which soon departs from any kind of objectivity. It is powerful and is a major reason why the SNP -as a sop to its hard support - will be propelled to an increasingly isolated, desperate and untenable positon.

174 Denis was in the The Jabberwocky.

The spinning from Labour about how 'Wendy has changed' shows that in fact Wendy has baggage from her last unpopular stint as a minister.

Alexander herself admitted that the Scottish Labour party had had no new ideas in the last 100 years, they don't seem to have many new ones now either!

Their attempt to cobble together an agreement on new powers with their fellow unionists (while a small step in the right direction) after they ignored all such calls when in power shows their desperation to recapture the positive idealogical ground from the SNP.

As long as Labour, Tories and Lib Dems remain attached to London rule, both of their parties and this country, they will never be seen as serious about Scottish aspirations and rightly so.

This risible remark shows up the unionists sub standard aspirations for their fellow Scots:

"senior Labour figures are understood to believe the forum should also debate whether some powers should be handed back to Westminster."

Wow! What a great forum this will be, very open to our rights of self determination as a nation, no discussion of independence and maybe we have too many powers already... The SNP must be really worried........

182

Exactly !

Stop debating what support exists for independence and to quote Unionists (but only when it suits their purpose of course)" lets have the ONLY opinion poll which counts"! The unambiguous one of a referendum.The outcome is a measure of the day it was taken of course. As the 1979 referendum clearly indicates, the desire for devolution grew after that and was recorded in a subsequent referendum which was not granted to enact good governance but to test just how much the Unionists could risk further delay .The answer was another slide down the slippery slope.I have always said that in a democracy the settled will of the people cannot exist. The Status Quo cannot be the settled will or we would never have left our caves!
The people have to understand that devolution was never designed to provide good governance for Scotland,it was designed to halt or failing that delay the slide toward independence so that Westminster could extract as much out of the North Sea as they could get their greedy little hands on.
IT looks like they managed 50% so far but its doubtful that they will get very much more.

Forward Scotland to...........................Scotland!

210

Not much point is supporting something you dont believe in is there? I realise this is a strange concept to Unionists. I have yet to see a single heart felt defence of the Union in any media to date all we get from Unionists is doom and gloom rhetoric and opinions pushed as facts if we went Independent in spite of the fact that none of these doom and gloom predictions ever happened to any other nation gaining their Independence.
Diehard is an expression for those on the way out not for those in their ascendency keep it for the Union.

Ew AM2 does have a certain ring to it
and gives us the couplet

How do you do?
Ew AM2
your faded brew
is Union stew

217

Actually you hit the nail on the head.
These Unionist party will go all out to block an Independence referendum but will happily back a referendum to send what little powers we have back to Westminster now theres true democracy.

217
I hope they do!

They are seen as increasilngly less relevant to Scotland and if they as much as dance once to the Westminster tune they are finished.
Personally I cannot wait !

Cue Tartan Wendy!
She has no choice as far as I can see but dance a highland fling and she had better be quick about it!

Devorced sibling Looking for unintersting Guy

I'm a powerful sibling who enjoys eating toffees while talking. Passions include active Brown-nosing and telling caterpillar stories to my children and my off-spring. Looking for an understanding, caring guy with suitable professional standing who will not speak his mind publicly and doesn't mind zombie brothers. For friendship and possibly less.

#215 - I like the revised spelling, I will suggest they change in spelling though and ask them to change all the names with "gh".

Your last point is correct but protagonists of both sides should try humour rather than bile. The only problem with that is it wit takes longer to think up and not everyone can do it. If you only get your wit half right you then get accused of being a half wit.

Regretably I will have to leave the forum soon to go and lie in the sun and have a BBQ. At least it is only 38 today so not too hot. Hopefully not raining too hard in the Cradle of Culture and Reasoned debate that is modern Scotland.

Other options include an ad-hoc committee of the Parliament, taking evidence on the matter....

Oh yes, you can see that the Opposition really have grasped the public mood and are responding to it in kind.......they're taking the highly unusual parliamentary step of 'setting up an ad-hoc committee'.

Then poor Nicol says:
"I am keen that it involves the political parties, voters and civic society in the same way as the Constitutional Convention."

I'm sure no one will spot the difference Nicol between a National Constitutional Convention and an ad-hoc committee. Go for it son.

#226 Meths - i was speaking celcius not farenheit!

220 Derrick

Union Stew
Is a potent Brew
Trusted and True
But not for you

#229 - you should swim over here for a weekend, bit of a swim but it would keep you fit. Off to buy wine now (the best stuff costs up to a fiver!). Enjoy your seista.

#208 - Indeed, good point. AM2 is often thought-provoking, but he can be quite nippy too (in a fun way) I think this article shows just how far the political 'centre-ground' on constitutional options has moved, largely driven by the SNP. 10 years ago the debate was status quo (no devolution) vs limited devolution vs independence. Now the debate has shifted to devolution max vs independence. Odd the way the three unionist parties decried the national conversation, which includes further devolution as an option, in favour of this secret-squirrel anti-nat club. Must make most labour supporters shudder to see the party plotting with the Tories on constitutional options.

#231 - Steady, echoes of 'Free by 93' :-)

The people's flag is mauve in hue,
its no longer red, its turned Tory blue

#188 Mercat Cross

aww! you know you don't mean it Mercat. Not a fair minded S.N.P lad such as yourself but as a narrow minded unionist I forgive you.
As for all the Insults..boo...hoo...boo..hoo
Tell us dear Mercat, dear Merat what is the legitimate arguments " for the union I could do with the ammunition.

Ridiculing Nationalism is not the same as ridiculing Scotland. Which only goes to show the Megalomania of certain Nationalists.

#192 AyrshireScot aka (Dorothy)

This is for you and 'toto' of course.

http://www.theblockgc.com/aboutus.html
#181

As Metho says use your refresh

#236 - you've sent a web-link for a gay bar somewhere. Magisterial comeback.

PS- would I not be a "friend of Dorothy" vs Dorothy herself? You can't even get your abuse right - like I said, you have the IQ of a periwinkle.

Oh, come on.

'Free by '93' was an objective not a prediction. Now a prediction was "Devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."

Wonder why the media don't make much fun of that?

231 Methalions
Seperate State
Sounds jus Great
3008
Is that too late?

#236 - Howyoubleatin - they're playing your song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVVT-_x-uL8

#184. AM2, Glasgow
The presumption as ever is to take one measure in isolation and take this as the basis for your hypothesis.

The dynamics of abolishing the dependency culture are that everything gets a boost and is mutually supporting.

The extra GDP over that ten year period on top of the extra evenue from north sea revenues doesn't just appear in the treasury ledger, it is reinvested in building the economy, boosting the well being of the people living here, and encourages further investmet, a virtuous cycle.

The opposite of the 'too wee, too poor, too stupid' self fulfilling mindset, it's the 'can do' attitude.

Also:
This from Prof Ashcroft is priceless:

""...Now this final point, the issue of small states promoting economic growth - I think this is a really interesting argument.

This was the argument in the election - that small independent states promote prosperity and growth:
an independent Scotland would join an arc of prosperity of Ireland, Iceland, Norway and Denmark, Finland and Sweden also providing other examples. What's the evidence for this contention?

Actually I think there is evidence for it - and it is an interesting point.

This is from the OECD factbook last year, which provides some support for the Arc of Prosperity contention.

I've marked out in red the countries that support the SNP's contention - Norway, Ireland, Iceland and Denmark, and outlined in green those that are 'small' economies - my definition of small, which I think is Alex Salmond's definiton of small too, is ten million people.. What we see here, quite clearly, is that the rankings of GDP per head are weighted in favour of small economies, there's no doubt about that...""

Professor Mr Wendy Alexander

:-)

We've got you now you numpty red haired SNP zeros. Like in Dundee were goin' tae whop you.
Enjoy you brief period of power. Goodby that eejit Salmond! Mair power tae ma freeds AM2 and howyou doinboy.

God Save the Queen!

#237

ugh..ugh..ugh..hoo..hoo..ugh..ugh..hoo..ughoo
wassa IQ wassa periwinkle...is that winkle...with a periscope.

anyway I off for the day..bye

I was only joking....

The people's flag once mauve in hue,
no longer red, turned Tory blue
Kier Hardie spins at blurry rate
to see his sons' decrepit state

Three for one
all for Union
latecomers cry
thus far - no more!
and try to close
the stable door

but Freedom's state
in 308
for us would be
a touch too late

Can nane o you scan at all?

#243 - was only joking myself. Have a good one.

The three stooges - Stephen, Jamieson and McLetchie. "Nicol Stephen told Scotland on Sunday" - who gives a tinker's toss what this nonentity has to say about anything? He's brought his party to the brink of oblivion.

#242 - Aye, you showed them SNP types in Dundee, and you showed them good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2SU_5ta43E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCtXXl5MGbU

And nae a ginger hair in sight

#242

Obviously a wind-up Merchant - the Cooncil is Lab-Lib-Tory coalition 2nd time round (maj 1) - but the largest group remains SNP - Both MSPs are SNP - Dundee Est MP (Only Dundee West MP remains Lab - and that is cceratin to change next time up).

Been watching that CSI Miami have you with your forensic analysis?

Yes that David Caruso is an SNP-er right enough!

246. Florence, Edinburgh
No don't tell me, let me guess, was it Chuck Kennedy or the one with the here today gone tomorrow ginga beard?

This is a big plot hatched by Dick Cheney...

248. James, Dundee / 3:39pm 26 Aug 2007 #242

Been watching that CSI Miami have you with your forensic analysis?

Yes that David Caruso is an SNP-er right enough!
------------------------------------------------------------
CSI? CSI? you get CSI in Scotland? What happened to VITAL SPARK?

The unionists lost the election and now they suddenly want more powers for the Scottish Parliament. Youy can not trust these unionists.

Have I unmasked AM2?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxYa-dGnRdY&mode=relat...=

3 pence lift on income tax, plus (say) 1% on property value tax (for starters) = trouble!

251. zigzag, Xanadu
Last I saw off her she wass laid up on Loch Fyne at Inveraray.
Ochone, ochone, if Dougie wass here he'd tell you, smertust shup in the tred, oh my indeed.

#257 - how very, very dare you

"Steal" says it all.Just like their english leash holders these poodles rely on forms of crime to get what their lack of merit cannot.They already stole 6 billion pounds from the population,it's health care and education because they want to play dinky toys.Let's not wonder where the crime rate comes from.

#260 Methal - I knew that :-) Am a staunch republican. IF we need a head of state figure I am for Rosie Kane.

In aligning themselves with the Tories Labour are making a faustian bargain which could dramatically backfire on them the next time we have an election. The Westminster election may not be too far away and its not too outlandish an idea now that Labour could find themselves in need of backing from SNP MPs to remain in power, a situation in which Alex Salmond would have the PM firmly by the short and curlies.

Michael Forsyth is right. The unionist parties look afraid of this issue. They should arrange for a referendum on independence, using the SNP question. The decades-old policy of gradual accumulation of powers by the Scottish Secretary and then Holyrood has not settled the issue. The only way to do so is to address it directly. Elections can't suffice, as it is always pointed out that some people will vote for parties for reasons other than the constitution. What's more, the opinion polls suggest that the majority want a referendum, and the FM has stated that he would consider the result binding 'for a generation'. If the unionists don't want to talk about the constitution for the next 3-4 years, then they should have the referendum sooner. The polls suggest that they'd win it. The only value in a unionist convention or similar is to formulate a plan for greater devolution as an alternative to put to the people in a three-option referendum.

The unionists should consider that perceptions of London control and a failure to stand up for Scotland nearly killed the formerely nationalistic Tories, in the 1980s and 1990s. Finally, no-one should imagine that, after a while, people will simply drift back to Labour. There is no evidence of a pendulum effect in historic Scottish electoral behaviour and there is no reason to foresee one arising. Rather, as one dominant party has declined, another has risen and the former has never recovered. Liberals pre-war. Tories post-war. Labour now? They need to address the big issue head on and take back the initiative.

#264 Look up #149

#208

You're right. But I think maybe you underestimate AM2's role which is, precisely, to try and disrupt the conversation and lead us astray from the issues at stake.

You'll find he's particularly despised because of that. A lot of the seeming abuse towards him is directed specifically at him and not to unionists on the whole.

Not in my case, though. I have no idea why the fanatical unionists we see here are unionists. I think they're absurd people.

#270 AM2 - more irrelevance. Scotland's constitutional future will not and should not be settled by opinion poll. A referendum would be the most open and democratic method to establish the clear will of the people - as advocated by the SNP. the 3 unionist parties oppose such a fair and open process, and prefer their secret-squirrel meetings and stitch-ups based purely on party advantage, as described in the article above.

#276 - AM2 - speculative assertion. Can you offer any proof that you have a soul?

#274 - I meant "provoking"

152. AMtwa.

I say the separists of the province of Northern Ireland who voted to remain in the British Union and not be ruled by Dublin can hardly criticise the Kingdom, yes Kingdom, of Scotland's nationalists for having a similar desire by Substituting the words Dublin and London for London and Brussels.

Similar as Ireland was a one country island. Great Britain was 3 countries.

They've all showed their true colours now, this is coming sooner than expected, New Labour jumping into bed with their sworn enemies, The Tory ratbags and the Lib Dem's never men. Well anybody with even half a brain must now acknowledge what a great job Alex is doing hes got them now thick as thieves showing the electorate that none of them has any principles and they are doing the work for them. Can only get better.

129, howyoudoingboy, if you don't know 'jings', you are no Scot. You probably don't know 'Oor Wullie' or 'the Broons' either. Explains your opinions!

#281 - take it any way you want. You mistake me for someone who is keen to wander down your irrelevant and repetitive (SNP anti-English, opinion poll stats) culdesacs. Back to the topic for once dear chap? Disgraceful contriving of unionist parties to cobble together a policy position they can share (What happened to political parties advocating what they believe) in attempt to halt the Salmond/SNP juggernaut! Ita lib/Tory/Lab political cartel of lowest common aspiration and minimum principle.

AMtwa.

You keep posting percentages. Can you tell what the percentage vote for Ireland's secession from the UK was?

Could you also tell me why a minority vote was allowed to cause the fragmentation of a country which had entered itself in entirety into a union and not allowed the entire country to re-establish it's independence?

#286 - AM2 - I think you are confused. Vote in 1922 was the whole of Ireland voting to be independent. was there a separate subsequent vote in the 6 counties in favour of separatism?

#289 - LOL. Yeah, I believe he would be the type that might boil up relatives and sell them for glue. As it would spare them from reading further of his deluded and irrelevant missives it may be a blessed relief for them.

AM2 - you talk of opportunism, but don't comment on the Tories and Labour's conversion to further devolution, purely reactive to the SNP's capture of the commanding heights of Scottish politics, - a stitch up by 3 unionist parties and pure opportunism to preserve their diminishing support

I can here the P A's on election day,
People of Paisley come out and vote Wendy Alexander your tory allience candidate

What would Kiere Hardy and John Smith think of the Cons/Lab/Lib.Dem. coalition ? Now there is a Question !! both betrayed by Labour.secondly Labour have taken the Consevitives clothes to gain the Westminster parliment maybe they plan the same with the SNP ?? a stretch perhaps.

Did the website crash or something? Posted a thing to AMtwa and had ERROR until now.

Did a print screen and took the garlic out of the wok, fresh duvet cover on the duvet, programmed the recorder for Vanished, had a pee, washed my private because my hands were dirty and felt sorry for a lot of people.

This parliamentary session is going to be very interesting

301, AMtwa. Is that because you have no answer to it?

#296 AM2 - your are plunging to new depths of irrelevance. Should we judge the Tories by the prounouncemnts of Alan Clarke and the like, or the Labour party by the behaviour of accussed knicker-thieves like Ron Brown or drunken old-lady-bashers like Foulkes? Of course not, we judge by the party policies and the manner they are espoused by their spokespeople. The SNP is firmly anti-racist. Indeed, look at the obvious joy and pride the SNP took in electing Scotland's first and only Asian MSP. Give this very,very tired track of your's a rest.

"On topic" - no you are not. The article and question was on the conniving of Labour/Lib/Tory together to cobble together a shared policy - a total disgrace, an affront to their supporters and a betrayl of any sense of principle in articulating the best way forward for Scotland.

#303 - Jock, you know AMtwa can never give an answer to a question. Behold:

#297 - nice dodge. Was there a separate vote, plebiscite or any form of referendum in the 6 counties? No, just the changing of the rules after the democratic votes of the whole of Ireland.

As you can't address those direct questions perhaps you could get back to the topic - Lib/Lab/Tory unholy trinity plotting to abandon whatever positions they had purely for tactical party reasons - dismal.

AMtwa.
I think you are a separist from Northern Ireland. It is still a disputed territory and you espouse the partition stance by way of your UK unionism.

Is that why you are so scared of Scottish independence? It might just lead up to Northern Ireland being back in a reunified Ireland - ie no more partition and separatism in a one country island?

still waiting on any Unionist telling me why they are so scared of a referendum

AM2 287, maybe it's just in Ayrshire but I doubt you'd be there a week without hearing 'jings' or 'by jings', you'd certainly not mistake it for 'middle class English'. Is that supposed to be an insult BTW howyoudoingboy? If so it's an offensive and unnecessary comment.

AM2 oh yes you are!

#310 - Surely you hadn't forgottent the battle of Nonna's knickers as well? Or the long-running pantomime of Fairbairn's vase? By AM2's "logic" (I know, dissonanace to put that word in posting referring to the grand obfuscator) we would judge Labour and the Tories by these antics. We will not stoop to his level. We will judge them by the reported anti-democratic, unprincipled cartel they have estbalished, discussed in this article.

Quite, 305, AyrshireScot. I think the unholy trinity is in the huff with the SNP over the I word and I think it shows.

Don't reckon the terrible triplets want to bring the Executive down yet though as the Boss is too popular.

This is unionism's answer to concensus politics and shows the Westminster mentality with the devolution effect. New confrontational

#310 LOL. your article link misses the salient detail that Foulkes was reported to be doing a batman impersonation, and singing the batman theme tune (nanananananana) as he bashed into the innocents. He is nothing but a class act.

Labia (Scotland), Flibalib (Scotland) and Cons (Scotland) are acting like spoiled brats who are not getting their own way. They did it on the trams for starters.

Reckon Alex will have to ground them soon as they will act like fully blown released (unknotted) balloons before too long.

Can anyone tell me when there is to be an election for the leader of the tory alliance ?

And who the candidates are ?

You mean he is a fakir, or should that be faker?

#317 - Had he taken a tumbe, All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't have put him together again

320 - Tumble.

#307 - Rodster, you getting tired waiting for an answer to that very simple, direct question?

#295 Rodster
Ive been requesting AM2 to answer a reasonable simple straightforward question but to no avail. It appears to me that that he cant answer the simple question because he'd have to admit defeat.
the simple question asked was ::: Why does England hold on so tightly to Scotland's apron strings, they should boot us out of the union if they are over subsidising us. But they wont throw us out.
Now that is very strange is it not.

Ayrshire Scot , t.c.e.k
Not just AM2 any unionist is welcome to proffer an answer to the very simple question.
They cannot understand it either ,perhaps if these so called polls are correct why not back a referendum and be done with the independence question for a generation as Alex Salmond suggested?

what are the gang of 3's leaders in London gonna say about all this bluster from up north?

THIS IS FANTASTIC SHIFT IN SCOTTISH POLITCS
NOTHING LIKE A SUCCESSFUL SNP TO MAKE IT HAPPEN

#324 - not if it was on fire, and crap doesnnae burn :-) (just a wee joke AMtwa, no need to add it your x-files of SNP antipathy to pillocks)

328 Fat Freddy thank you for your opinion I tend to almost agree with your synopsis ,however I also feel like myself you are of the Self Determination fold .
I really wanted to hear and expose the piffle of an answer from one of the great Brit Nationalists .
There has been nothing of particular humorous bent on TV tonight and I am in much need of a good laugh.
perhaps they are all on to Head office in Westminster just now trying to get some good spin to reply to my simple question .
Though ,as I said earlier been asking since pre election.
Best up to now was one reply of cost and waste of tax payers money , unlike Cathy Jamieson's spend of £100 million on curing neds

#328 FFC. #331 Rodster- good grief, a fairly worded question in a balanced referendum campaign? A free and fair expression of democratic self-determination? What have such perversions got to do with unionist party thinking in Scotland?? Lets just all go back to taking whatever we were given and be thankful, and stop giving "Scottish" labour confusion.

#333 - Methal - AM2 has an impudent presumption to go with his shambolic logic. I am not a member of any party, so don't know why he keeps saying "your".

Bound to be a few fringe types in any party, but the SNP looks, and always has, sound on racism (actively opposes, promotes diversity) and seems progressive on all social issues. Pity whatever poor party that might have AM2 as a member - how would they explain him?

329 COL BLIMP
The answer to the simple qoestion is this,,,THE GOLDEN GOOSE::: THE POT OF GOLD::: THE GRAVY TRAIN::: THE MESSAGE IS CLEAR.

Methalions - I'm back - sorry I met to write "Meths" as you had previously. I am not South African but Scots, I just happen to live in Africa and really enjoy it. The Maghreb is North Africa, Morocco to Libya. I'm in Tunisia, a good place. Crap for the young Brits that think everywhere they go on holiday should be Ibiza, but actually quite good fun.

On the "jings" front, didn't Dudley Watkins, an Englishman living in Cupar, used it ad infinitum for the Broons and Oor Wullie? I have an English wife, very middle class family, and the likelihood of them using "jings" in any conversation is nil. I thought it was parochial Jockinese.

REf Moors in Spain, it was very peaceful and they all co-existed. The Khalifas that conquered it came from Tunisia, here they are the Hafsids, but it was after the oringal invasion relatively bloodless. The archicture they left in Spain is breathtaking. Some of the architecture is so perfect that modern architects and builders would struggle to better it for symmetry and form. Sorry, boring lecture over.

How is the fiesta?

336 - Could have been Ayrshire venacular, referring to the talking of pure sh'#e, also know as talking Murray.

#306 - ~I think ~I must have misunderstood you, it sounds like that you believe that Ireland should be one country and thus following that to its logical end so should the island of Britain be only one country and not have petty borders within. Is that your argument?

#258 Livilion, at least I'm intellegent enough that I don't have to use other peoples quotes mate.

Here's an idea, think of something original yourself.

343, CJO. Not at all. Ireland, 1 country. Scotland, 1 country, Wales, 1 country. England, 1 country.

#339 COL.BLIMP IV
Thanks for the support. am2 must be trying to get the simple answer
Im off to bed now nite all.

Wendy talks of:

"I want Scottish Labour to champion the optimism of our country"
Roughly translated: An obvious reference to the view that the SNP captured a positive spirit in Scotland, in contrast to Labour's grim warnings over independence. Since 99, when Labour warned "divorce is an expensive business", the party has, by and large, used claims over the supposed dire consequences of independence in its election campaigns. This suggests Ms Alexander may back away from that in favour of a more optimistic view of Scotland, as espoused by the SNP.

The penny has dropped. being negative and talking down to Scots gets you the contempt that the unionist cringer's so richly deserve. The cringer's have been the best recruiting Sargent that the SNP EVER HAD. Well done and thank you for your fantastic efforts AM2 and the gang you have done a magnificent job. Scotland will be independent thanks to you and your cringing and negativity.
God bless Alex Salmond and his magnificent ministers. They have achieved more for this nation than Labour has done in 50 years. At long last we can hold our heads up and stride confidently to a new future. My task is done on this terrible forum.

ALBA GU BRATH.

Tuesday, August 21, 2007
The real Labour Party in Scotland: nae supporters
Hamish McDonnell is never known to be one to fawn over Alex Salmond and the SNP but his critique of the problems facing Wendy Alexander as the next leader of the Labour Party in Scotland (not the Scottish Labour Party because that smacks of a separate identity), is spot on.

dwindling membership

dwindling parliamentarians

half the number of councillors

majorities slashed where they do hold seats

fewer and fewer activists on the ground

and no civil service to do the donkey work on policy
= nae voters

No wonder the Labour Party is waking up to the fact that trade union donations alone will not win them back into power.

#346 - But an island without false partition is all of the island, not artificial borders, which are generally meaningless.

275 Blimphead

And you know what, I find it hard to picture you and your pals on here NOT parading around in a "Spirit of Bannockburn" kilt (such a romantic name *coughs* NOT!!) and a jimmy wig, with William Wallace tattooed all over you body, while eating haggis and drinking whisky every night, and having a giant saltire on your PC background and a Mel Gibson desktop.

Oh and btw to the rest of the Nationalist f*ckwits on here, Ireland are not, never have been and never will be our "anti-English ally" as you dearly like to think to yourselves.

Scotland and England, Friends United!

The Daily Record puts its money where its mouth is
General election speculation continues unabated as fresh funding for the Labour party is declared through Electoral Commission reporting. Labour attracted over £5million pounds in donations and that was before Brown was formally PM, though a lot of the donations were to Scottish CLPs for the Scottish Parliament elections.

Interesting donations: Jack McConnell paid in £1006.48 and £201.24 - sounds awfully like an election address costs doesn't it. But he was dwarfed by deeper-pocketed Labour MSPs: Malcolm Chisholm paid in £3,590, Hugh Henry donated £3,000 and Jackie Baillie donated £1250 to their own constituency - nothing like having to pay to save your own skin. Ex-MSP Maureen McMillan kindly donated £2,842 probably to fund her campaign in Ross, Skye & Inverness West. Likewise Dr Sylvia Jackson's £1350 to Stirling CLP was kinda wasted. I think it is unheard of in the history of recording party donations to see sitting MSPs digging into their own pockets so deep to fund an election campaign. Offering to pay for your election communication is one thing,but funding the whole shaboogle is another.

The Daily Record and Sunday Mail paid £10,000 to Scottish Labour. Willie Haughey, ex-chair of Scottish Enterprise Glasgow, personally paid £10k to London Labour HQ, £4500 to East Renfrewshire CLP and £5k to JohnSmith House but his company City Refridgeration paid £90,000 to Scottish Labour. Stewart & McKenna of Renfrew paid £5000. Alexander Mitchell donated £6,000, and Jeff Leaver a £3k, as an individual too. Phoenix Car Company from Linwood managed to pass £9k. RDK Construction paid £1500 to Allan Wilson's constituency organisation.

Non-cash donations included over £30k in staff support from Tait Communications - not a PR agency with a record of winning now.

Amazingly, a third of Scottish Labour and CLP funds came from a London-based organisation: Muslim Friends of Labour

From The Sunday TimesAugust 19, 2007

Most Scots believe that independence is aheadTom Gordon, Scottish Political Editor
See the YouGov poll results

MORE than half of Scottish voters now regard the break-up of Britain as inevitable, according to a YouGov poll for The Sunday Times.

The survey found that 60% believe Scotland will become independent from England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Support for independence remains low at present, with only 23% in favour. However, a majority, 61%, said they would consider voting for separatism in the future.

Related Links
Only 7% want Alexander as first minister
Circumstances that would persuade them to switch include the Conservatives winning the next general election or Gordon Brown, the prime minister, reducing the level of public spending north of the border.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article228...

After 100 days... imagine the next 1340!
Well, it's pretty clear the Unionist opposition never expected this day to come. 100 days of an SNP Government. Maybe an SNP-led coalition but they never expected a minority government to last this long.
The Scottish Government has set out in a very clear report, many actions which the SNP has carried out so far in government. Such as:
A smaller, more effective Ministerial team with 6 Cabinet Secretaries (including the First Minister) and 10 Ministers;
Established Council of Economic Advisers to provide independent advice to increase Scotland’s sustainable economic growth rate;
Agreement to abolish tolls of the Forth and Tay bridges
Continuation of A&E services at Ayr and Monklands hospitals
Legislation planned to end graduate endowment
Publication of a white paper on independence and launch of national conversation
Funding for 300 extra teachers and 250 more teacher training places from August, to drive down class sizes in P1 to 3; a commitment to providing additional funding for a phased 50% increase in free nursery provision
Ongoing negotiations with Westminster on the transfer of responsibilities for firearms legislation to the Scottish Parliament to allow action on air weapons
Set up Saltire Award for innovation in industry to reward the best efforts to develop cutting edge renewable energy technology
Made a commitment to set a target of cutting emissions by 80% by 2050. We will be drafting a Climate Change Bill to take this forward
Once the Opposition and the media get used to such straightforward Government, they might actually be a little bit more positive than the grudging respect that has been paid of late. After all, they'll have another 1340 days of an SNP Government still to report about.

For years, we have won the arguments, we have won the debates, we have won the hearts and minds, now we are winning the votes.

Scotland awakes!

One: Scotland has a window of opportunity to use the remaining North Sea oil revenues, increasing through the approach of Peak Oil, to bankroll the investment needed to recreate ourselves as the renewable energy dynamo of Europe. At a forecast stabilisation price of $182 a barrel, the success of this, to a great extent, means tethering a Scottish petro-pound by investing in England.

Two: We are a high-maintenance society which has taken a battering from globalised capital and its indifference to human outcomes, and from bureaucracies and interest groups for whom power and patronage has been more important than democratic reform. There is much latent or misapplied wealth that can sort this out, and if we allocate it rationally, this can pay a powerful social dividend.

Three: We have better ways of making ourselves useful as world citizens than by fighting for US-UK imperial ventures, from Halliburton to Qinetiq, and housing a new generation of expensive, useless, and dangerous Trident submarines.

Four: Scotland has an ideal of the democratic intellect which is dynamic, civic and integrative. This can be used to reverse the tendency towards the unequal, ageing and inward-looking parochialism that marks British metropolitan culture, and the decline of its institutions into manipulative hype. A very dead shark indeed.

Five: Scottish constitutional ideas have a vision of the free co-operation of the nations of these islands which can reinvigorate our international links and responsibilities, in the European Union and importantly in the Commonwealth. The latter is an Anglophone, multiracial international still remote from Wall Street and the White House: an alternative future to Ben Barber's deadly duo of McWorld and Jihad. This will multiply, not restrict, the synergy of the British Islands.

Enthusiasm for Scottish independence has fluctuated. Though on balance it has been increasing, it has sounded from time to time like William Dunba

351. Ireland was Ireland on its own island. Scotland is Scotland on an island with Wales and England. The boundaries are already there.

AMtwa. You couldn't answer you way out of a paper bag unless it was on hair splitting dodgy statistics. And only then if it was cut and paste onto the paper.

No 361 I'm a Hibs fan. Please don't say that it's part of my duty as a Hibs fan to support independence, just because you're prob a Tim who sits and sings about bombing English people with the IRA at Parkhead, doesn't mean we should all be the same.

#364 - Sorry but the island of Britain is one island, you can't expect to have it both ways with your argument surely? Or does it only work when it works in your favour.

Must awake on time tomorrow and earn my union dividend for the war in Iraq, Afganistan etc. Backpayments for the National Debt because of the fighting in Northern Ireland and all the other Imperial aquisitions of the past, Trident, the aforementiond wars etc.

Bysie boboes for me.

#368 - nothing to do with unionisn, I am just trying to follow the thread of your argument which unfortunayely is contradictory. a striaght answer, rather than head long flight would be more seemly.

CJO. Are you thick? I can have it both ways. Ireland is an island containing one country. Britain is an island containing 3.

Night, night, CJO.

#370 - no not thick, probably have a much higher IQ than you. The problem with your argument is that the borders we now have in UK aren't even natural borders that you find in other areas of the World where natural features were used. Ours were drawn by conquest. Perhaps we should roll the border back to the "wall". At least it would give Scotland a bigger share of the UKCS revenues. International law gives England the rights up to and including the Eastern Trough in the North Sea, in other words about 100 miles East of Aberdeen.
So are we going for one land mass as our border or does that only count for flags of convenience?

#371 - as you say, night night.

By the way, we aren't all Jock Tmaon's bairns, you have to work at it for a decent life. Even make sacrifices to earn your worth. It isn't just given to you. But you know that.

#325 Rodster,

Lets have a referendum now why haven't the Executive arranged one sooner. Now..Now..Lets get to a settled answer...now..As per Michael Forsyth thank you very much...I agree.

#361 Col.Blimp IV

"Are you by any chance the guy with the England Football top and the "No Surrender" tattoo, who cleans my windows?"

Do you actually say anything to him about his tattoo I'll bet you don't...

#362

How old are you...About 12..I guess..............

363 HEN BROON 5, back from my highland retreat

So much Nationalist diarrhoea..Still its late and Hen broom is back,,After his family has been given some respite care.
So many postings to prove Absolutely nothing apart from his Mammy allowed him to stay up late..Whooo!!!!!

370 Jock Tamson,

you'll be doing a Russian next with your flag on the continental shelf...

I'm off to bed nighty night....see you tomorrow...Jings...

The most recently published opinion poll, suggests that support for the SNP is running at 48%.

Fold up your tents Unionists, the game’s a bogey :P

#377 - another latest opinion poll shows 23%, as published by a felow Nat earlier today. A 25% swing in under 24 hours is remarkable, even for Mr Salmond.

#377

Unfortunately bully wee alba, we stay till the last grave is dug.

goodbye scotland northern ireland wales what started as bliars attempt to remove democracy from the english is having its inevitable consequence. freedom for english from the tyranny of paying thru the nose for votes for nulab. £30 billion pounds from 5 million people with very high levels of economically inactive scots( and welsh n ire). enjoy!

#380 - do you still hope they win every game?

#379

I have a spade, and a copy of the Sunday Post, both of which are available to consign the last unionist to their just desserts.

#376 and AM2
Then get on to your unionist party and tell them to agree to a referendum.
It is the Unionists that will not countenance a referendum so if London allows you to do it come ahead!!!

#387 - I am by inclination a unionist but I agree, a referendum is the correct answer. At 23% for and the rest against, it is a pretty clear answer. When that happens, will the noisy minority settle back into their seats and let the majority get on with it?

#389 - wont happen.

#295 and # 323 - I agree with both your comments.

#295 - Rodster - I ask him and every other Unionist troll on here ,IF you are all so sure that the SNP would lose a referendum so overwhelmingly why are you so scared to hold it ????

#323 - t.c.e.k. -Why does England hold on so tightly to Scotland's apron strings, they should boot us out of the union if they are over subsidising us. But they wont throw us out.

#392 - I still look for the result every week, hoping they win of course. Not been ast Celtic Park since it was rebuilt. ~~~The sectarianism is not sustainable, from either side. Unfortunately, all too Scottish.

#394 - perhaps the odd idiot will torch a straw bale or two but that would be it. I don't even think that would happen. If was, it would have happened before now. Yes, there would be more petty nastiness that was witnessed before the last football World Cup when a disabled driver was attacked in Aberdeen and a 9 year old was assaulted in Edinburgh. That unfortunately is the behaviour of a very small minority of whatever cause.

#384

Terry, London.... here's the "T" you missed from your surname.

kind regards,

Glasgow.

#398 - I trust you are not claiming I'm bigotted or racist because I am neither. I'm divorced from a Scottish presbyterian girl and I'm married to a North African muslim. I try not mix socilally with the expat community here in North Africa as I find them pompous and arrogant. Unfortunately, the worst ofenders are the Scottish contingent. Sadly. The worst are the working class snobs from Glasgow and Aberdeen who think of their cleaners etc as little better than slaves.

Where I live isn't part of the old British Empire. Check your geography.

Oh, meant to say, the French, for all their egalitariamsim are much, much worse than the Brits. And as for the Germans, breath taking.

#402 - so were you calling me a racist and a bigot or not? Forget the borders issue for now, South Africa is thousands of kilometers from me.

Ramadan coming, getting my wine stocks in over the next 2 weeks. 24 dinars ftom an hotel rather than 6 frm the offie? Can't see it. No cuddles in the morning either, bit duff really!

Mother in law are worse here than in Scotland and having had one previously that was an interfering pain in the bum, that saying something.

#402 - so will you give me an answer or not?

Over 400 postings on this subject and no more than 40 on the death of Rhys Jones.

People, get a grip.

#407 - keep your bunnett on yer napper. I agree with your objective, but doesn't help to denounce as scum those who don't. Feel a bid guilty about some of my jocular posts now.

~414 - Thanks for the clarification regarding myself. WRT the rest of Africa, it is quite a place and I bet not even Alex Salmond could sort it out. Not even in 1,000 days never mind 100.

Africa doesn't appear to have had the dilution and migratoin we have had across Europe. Northern Africa, entirely different. Amazing culture long before we had got out of mud huts.

Tunis was the home to modern mathematics and medicine. Didn't invent the pneumatic tyre which was done by some punter in Stonehaven. So we beat them there.

Anyway, must off to bed as it is Summer working hours, i.e. 7:30 to 2:30. Just turn the AC up and get my head down.

Mercarr Cross must be a Labour party plant to come out with such cleverly crafted arguments!

#419 - you appear paranoid. Get a grip, you do your cause no good whatsoever.

#415 - The blogs go under the article, ya eejit. Thanks for suggesting noone cares, think you probably wrong. Look under different blog. Then go to a cookery blog and complain at lack of DIY.

#419 -

As an objective outsider, I would say that you believe that your postings on this site seem to give give you some sense of authority if not superioriy.

By my reckoning, you are neither Holmes, Watson or Moriarty.

However, I do enjoy the delicious irony that you would choose an icon of English literatue to attempt to prove your point - whatever it is.

Re Benthehoose 49 and 50
Well said, well said..............i could not have said it better!

Re Honest Jock, Leith, 59 - 61
Good to hear from you again.......your comments made me smile.

Re Lindsey, Glasgow, 154
That which comes to mind is.........'the FORCE is with us' and has always been!

Lastly, Re AM2, Glasgow, 152
'genuinely...blinkered' and a 'proselytising sect....'

You, sir, are a genuine dunderhead and putz! where is your high-flying comrade, Galactic Cannibal, these days? is he surveying the 'Murieta' countryside in his hot-air contraption? i'm surprised you are not sharing in the same flight. perhaps it is the case of too much hot air that would prevent anything of substance from staying up!

You dare to insult us - and it is apparent from the postings that this is all you understand. what a pity.

The SNP, the Nationalists, whatever - the quest for independence transcends all your little arguments. you seem to be rather intelligent and i would have thought you to be more perceptive. this nation of OURS belong to the SCOTS. it was never given nor handed to anyone. and, it should rightfully be returned to its people! there should be no devolution time nor should there be any date on anyone's book to turn this country over. IT WAS NOT THEIRS TO BE HAD IN THE FIRST PLACE.

This is why this QUEST for freedom will never fall neatly into your argument schemes and why i call you, Sir, a dunderhead and putz.

'My son, I tell thee soothfastlie
No gift is like to libertie
Then never live in slaverie.'
Sir William Wallace of Ellerslie AD1272-AD1305

Unlike you, Sir, i hope that i am still alive to see the day that Scotland is free!

Beannachd leat!

#425 - Take your cheap sanctimonious dribble elsewhere . Posts on gun control and that poor unfortunate individual vivtum of gun crime under those articles. Don't even try to equate or equivocate peoples interest in politics with lack of interest or compassion - less than cheap, crawl elsewhere

Col- well spoken.

My comment was only made in the reading of the truly moving observations made about Rhys' story compared to the bile, rhetoric and outright hatred posted on the other story.

Thank you for your views. I am better informed by them.

#42 Dunnie

I will post two versions of this post beginning with this one.

Dunnie, dear chap.

You are so representative of the unionist fraternity that it almost makes me weep.

No, wait a moment. It does make me weep.

You said:

"However, I do enjoy the delicious irony that you would choose an icon of English literatue to attempt to prove your point - whatever it is."

Well, everyone. Shall I tell him myself, or would someone else like to point out to Dunnie Boy the error of his ways?

430 - Dunger - this is still blog on Scottish politics. Get relevant/ real/ less nauseatingly cheap.

#429 - Mercat Double Cross - cheap shot! You however, didn't not see fit to address my observation.

And by the way, how do you know I am a member of the Unionist Fraternity - sexist as that term may be - ? I was just pointing out a rather singular irony.

EDITED VERSION

Ok, I'll point it out myself.

Dunnie, you typical unionist lackwit.

Arthur Conan Doyle, who created Sherlock Holmes, was from Edinburgh.

He is a Scot. The character of Holmes was based on one of Conan Doyle's professors, University of Edinburgh.

Conan Doyle is a Scottish author. Holmes is the creation of a Scottish author.

Scottish literature, Dunnie Old Bean.

Stick your irony up your River Thames, you typically unuionist lackwit fool who underatnds NOTHING about Scotland.

#343 - Fascinating. You should think about publishing your star-studded incisive aphorisms in book form. The world cries out for such intellectual giantism of your kind.

436 for 434 of course

AyrshireScot,

I'm with you, buddy. I feel your pain.

But, have no fear, we are winning.

I've got to go now, but just want to say that your posts (along with the delightful Methalions) are the most worthwhile and interesting to be read on these boards.

Sleep well.

#434 - what was the irony? That you don't know anything about much. Have a wee sit down and gee your brain a rest.

Mercat Cross - despite all your insults - is this what represents the best of nationalists?

My, what people reading these postings must think of such invective - all in the name of nationalism.

Such a brave wee man hurling such insults in the name of his country. Salmond would surely back you up????

My point is that Holmes is to the world - an Englishman. Rightly or wrongly, that is the case.

And, oh, by the way, check out any biography of Sir Arthur - and you will find he was a Unionist to the core.

And what do you know abut my understanding of Scotland?

All I can say is that. by your comments, you represent the worst of those who purport to speak on behalf of Scoland's future. Now, sorry, please go back to your viewing of Braveheart.

#440 - Holmes is a fictitious character. Have a read at your own post - am sure we are all black affronted for you, lol. The author who created Holmes, was, as Mercat pointed out, Scottish (and how we laughed as you stumbled into your own pit of ignorance - ps Ignatius one of his middle names). Now, be a good wee ignoramus, have a wee scout round your floor, find the sticky, smelly root of your stupidity, grab it, and stick it in the bin - we'll all be grateful.

Oh, that you might have had enough oxygen during your gestation....

#442 - Contrived said the Quebec post. A plagiarised quote said the New York Times. Get a life, a capability to express yourself spontaneously, half a brain, and a point said everyone else. Go on, find it, grab it and stick it in the bin.

444 - I am worried you will sprain your free hand. Out of compassion I say stop it now.

#443 - proves reason to post #442.

#447 - and we exit to the sound of one hand chugging....nighty night

#450 - Big Kiss. nighty night.

OOOh, you brute!

#453 - " what little you know of those who have given their lives for INDEPENDENCE.

your family obviously has never had to make that sacrifice".

Not wanting to start a debate but I'm curious as to the meaning of your quoted statement.

Reading the likes of troll AM2 and the following quote, it's good to see that the SNP has finally pressured the unionists to reform the castrated powers of Scotland even if they kick and scream every inch of the way: "The dramatic move will be seen as a clear bid to outflank the SNP government . . .. The three Unionist parties are now attempting to grasp back the initiative and isolate the SNP, saying they are willing to consider reforms, short of an independence referendum. However, SNP sources last night declared themselves 'delighted' by the move, arguing they were forcing the pace of change. Stephen added that the new body would not even consider independence as one of its options, a move clearly designed to isolate the SNP. . . . [S]enior Labour figures are understood to believe the forum should also debate whether some powers should be handed back to Westminster."

AM2 ... Read all the deleted Posts early this morning...Sheeez....... I wonder who had the Posts deleted? An outraged Unionist, or an embarrassed Nationalist?

For the record Dunnie, Mercat Cross & Ayrshire Scot Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had an English Dad, an Irish Mum & was born in Edinburgh... definately an Unionist Dunnie! (no Welsh connection 'tho.)

AM2..459.... Good, the deleted posts were obnoxious, not funny & completely off the forum subject.

Keep up the good work, I rarely agree with you but your comments are always with substance & I admire your stoicism!

I can't believe that the Unionist parties have thought this through. Personally, I am delighted, because the more powers that are repatriated to Scotland, the nearer we get to independence.

The person who surprises me most is Annabel Goldie. I thought that she had been playing a very shrewd game up until now. I wonder if someone is pulling her strings.

Nicol Stephen becomes more and more bizarre. does he not realise that he is putting the kiss of death on his own career and on the very existence of his party in Scotland? It is obvious that voters are deserting the Libdems in favour of the SNP. This is great news for the SNP but disastrous for all of the opposition parties.

I think the following should cause the 3 parties, in particular, Wendy some embarrassment. Was hidden in the Sunday Times 26 August 2007 -

"WENDY ALEXANDER has been dealt an embarrassing blow in her first week as Scottish Labour leader after footage emerged of her husband making a case for independence.

Professor Brian Ashcroft, policy director of the pro-Union economic think-tank, the Fraser of Allander Institute, was filmed arguing that Scotland would be more prosperous as a separate country than having full tax-raising powers as part of the UK.

Addressing a private seminar in May, Ashcroft said an independent Scotland would join an “arc of prosperity”, comprising other affluent small European states.

One of his wife’s first actions as leader was to commit to a review of the devolution settlement with the option of giving the Scottish parliament the power to raise all of the £30 billion it spends every year.

Ashcroft told delegates at an Edinburgh seminar organised by Visit Scotland, that full fiscal autonomy was “an absurdity” found nowhere else in the world. “Against that option, full-blown independence might be better, because . . . you can do many more things,” he added. “If you’re being forced to balance your books, then I think the logic is ‘be independent’, don’t do it within the Union. So you heard it here first - the argument for independence.”

Labour yesterday sought to play down the row, dismissing it as a “throwaway remark”. However, Pat Kane, who captured Ashcroft on video, said his comments were included in a Powerpoint presentation. “The reaction in the room was one of shock. People were thinking, ‘Did Brian Ashcroft just say that?’ ” said Kane.

Alex Neil, the nationalist MSP, said: “It must be be the first time in history there’s been a marital row over fiscal autonomy.”

Yesterday Ashcroft said his preferred option was for “fiscal federalism” where some, but not all, tax powers were de

Any step towards returning more authority and responsibility to Edinburgh should be welcomed.It should however be remembered that the Lib Dems,Tories and Labourites...see the best way,at present,of retaining their seats as serving their masters in the City Of London....if independence becomes inevitable then they will change tack with the wind....'whichever way rhe wind blows'...there have been many examples of such characters in Scottish History and these people are never to be trusted.

Re: AM2, Glasgow

Why do some people get hot and bothered about him? Just ignore him. He rarely produces a positive contribution to a discussion and he loves all the attention he can get. There are more important things to do than argue with him.

203

Sorry Geoff

I just saw that posting (honest)

I am of the opinion that the USA and France should consult their own elctorate. What they decide as soveriegn nations is correct for them .(What I think is irrelevant)
As long as we are in a United Kingdom which supports the use of nuclear detterent in the UK ,then I accept the majority wish prevails.
That does not mean that I welcome them in Scotland. I would prefer that they were removed from Scottish soil asap and certainly after independence. There is always a balance between desirability and practicality. I recognise that in removing them from Scotland , I will still be next door to England who will presumably retain them.That is her choice
What I think therefore has no bearing since I have no vote there or say in the affiars of foreign countries.

My personal preference is removal from Scotland (unconditionally),and what happens elsewhere is their affair,outwith my control, and interference from us is not something we should encourage,so I would not try to influence my neighbours other than by example.

That probably sounds like sitting on the fence a bit.If so then I am a fence sitter!Guilty as charged

#468 -

Hen Broon - If Scotland decides to become independent, I will truly be saddened but wish you all the best and God speed. Though I believe that Scotland's government will wake up with a long and debilitating hangover after the celebrations.

Perhaps, I am wrong. I believe and will always believe in the Union. Fundamentally, I believe that we draw strength from differences that have a common purpose. However, that is my view, simple as that.

The one thing that concerns me is the attitude of many of the Nationalist posters. Aside from the rather offensive standpoint that they seem to believe they have a monopoly on all things Scottish and what qualifies as such, many express views and exude emotions that border on hatred and are almost universally expressed in the foulest terms.

I cringe to think what they will say and do if the Scottish people decide - in an open and democratic way - against independence.

Just some views and thoughts. Cheers.

So has anyone heard from Galactic Cannibal lately, or did I just miss something?

468 HEN BROON 5

"would see you nursing a very sore face "

Nah hen broom it wouldn't happen.....Your not a 'Hard Man' I know.

“Joy lies in the fight, in the attempt, in the suffering involved, not in the victory itself”

'Mahatma Gandhi'

anyway off to watch ceebies.

I wish for all the best for Scottish independence.

I know that they are political enemies, but if the SNP had been invited to participate, it would say much more to Westminster.

#472 - expressed in the foulest terms? Given that alot of your posts above have been removed, you don't always express yourself in terms of universal fraternity and love....

But, your right - the debate should be about how Scotland can be in future, what best constitutional settlemnt for our country, economics etc. I disagree with your prognosis about consequences of independence, but welcome your point of view. As long as you don't start the slagging - you're no that good at it anyway :-)

well the stronghold party which used to even exist when scottish governing style was in quango not the westminster of the modern scottish .,,,,,,has made through in legislative process with othr opponent from tory and libdem,,,.. well in these scenerio the lethian question was the epic of discussion of which the three party counterattack over the tartan tax and the bernett formular in the govermental structure in reference to improving the standard of an old featherbed scottish society ,........there was high campaigh aginst the political party as well as hood winking the voters .,,,,,,,,,,,,

well the uniost thunder but will be like the very amazing uniost figure danold dewar the labour unionst left hand

the old dewar has made the unionst stronghold through reformist notion .,,,,,,,,,,,,, he made devolution ,.............

# 468

Why report Hen Brooms post it was just plain....silly..silly billy..Hen Broom.

As they say it's always the one jumping up and down making threats who's losing the argument and any 'Respect'

3477 - Ayshire Scot - fair enough - though I believe it more accurate to say that some of my posts have been removed - not a lot - and I always return fire not commence it. Another point - I have never used the F word in any of my postings. I have never seen fit to call someone a F***wit.

As to our respective slagging talents, hmm, you're no Bilg Yen yourself! Well, let's just try to be a little more civil.

I am trying to understand the points of view but really get depressed by the exchanges - and I'm not talking about ours.

I meant what I said in my earlier posting. If Scotland does go the route of independence, then so be it and as the son of a Scotsman, I'll support her every step of the way.

By the way, did you see earlier posting about Conan Doyle? Born in Edinburgh, parents? English and Irish. FYI.

Previous posting should have read "Big Yen". Just thought I would preempt the pedants.

http://forum.livinglifecasually.com/showthread.php?t=2449

472. Dunnie, Canada / 4:48pm 27 Aug 2007 "I cringe to think what they will say and do if the Scottish people decide - in an open and democratic way - against independence."

Thanks for your honesty, you do truly cringe.

472 - just can't let an honest remark go by without a backhander, can you?

I have got to say this,I would hate to be a Labour activist knocking door's at the next election, how do you explain to a lifelong Labour voter a position of being in coalition with the consevatives, unhappy times ahead for those activists

#482 - I have never called anyone a f***wit either. Agree, the tone of exchange on here a bit rabid at times. Alot of it is trolls doing it on purpose, with all the racist crap. A pity.

Everyone should respect the democratic verdict of the people. Those who support independence fully accept that we have not convinced enough people (yet).

Arthur Conan Doyle - oh come on, admit you dropped a wee clanger there?

3482 = Ayrshire Scot. Good to read.

Doyle? No, won't submit. Please revisit the postings.

I was only talking about the fictitious character - Sherlock Holmes - the quintessential Englishman of the times. If I didn't make myself clear, I could easily blame it on the third single malt (Lagavulin) - but I won't.

Cheers.

#487HEN BROON 5

Even with Independence English Hegemony will continue. Scotland is structured from top to bottom by English Culture.You only see the World through Eyes created by English influence the means of communication you use is English through and through.

Your argument might hold water if you used Gaelic (Gàidhlig). But them the vast majority of Scots wouldn't understand you. Which only goes to prove the point Scotland has been 'interiorly colonised' over all these centuries and even if Independent it will not end.

The only 'Free. Scot to me is the one that lives and breathes in Gaelic (Gàidhlig)

The only possible reason...

...for being on this site...

...at this time...

...is to get the number...

...of posts on the thread...

...up to a total...

...approaching...

...or greater than...

JimP - Stupid is as Stupid does.

501 - Have to say, I have never seen such a public display of faith and confidence by someone in someone who has done so little - so far - for so few.

Hen Broon- you have struck me to be too much of a cynic - someone who who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing - to be so infatuated by a politician - an occupation perceived by most as being a cut above the used care salesman.

But then, I suppose you cycle. Or perhaps, a pedestrian?

#504 HEN BROON 5 the mock Scotsman or is that a mockery of a Scotsman

Gaelic (Gàidhlig). you obviously can't speak the language can you a 'pidgin' Scots speaker pathetic..some Scots patriot aren't you..at the end you are more English than the English.
they are right inside your head always everything you say and do Dominated by English culture. The English worm inside your brain.

Little English Scot Hen broom

#503, 504, 505 AWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOAWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

ALBA GU BRATH

#506. Time you were in bed, primary 7 tomorrow, lots of books to colour in, and then you can call all the beastly SNP voters kids nasty names at playtime. AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

HEN BROON 5 the mock Scotsman or is that a mockery of a Scotsman

go on do a post in Gaelic (Gàidhlig). It can even be an insulting one..Very much your style..don't worry about translating that's not going to be a problem for me.

Umm i do believe he's off for more 'respite' care

na na nanna

GODDNIGHT LITTLE MEN SLEEP TIGHT DON'T LET THE NATIONALISTS BITE.

AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

PATHETIC

Hen Broon! Where are you? Are iyou n your cups ( or laps) or have you been roostered?

This is cheaper than video games.

HEN BROON 5 the mock Scotsman or is that a mockery of a Scotsman

This might help learn the Language

Gaelic Nursery Language

Anns an Dùthaich

A bheil thu a’ faicinn nan daoine air an eilean sin?

http://www.gaelicforfun.edin.org/

510 - Such an articulate, sophisticated and erudite spokesperson.

Independent Scotland's first Ambassador to the UN?

HEN BROON 5 the mock Scotsman or is that a mockery of a Scotsman

I declare me-self the winner there lads..It was easy really..the truth is Hen broom is a pseudo-Scot

couldn't even be bothered to get his ar#e into Gaelic (Gàidhlig) classes some fairweather patriot.

#514
why doesn't he know his (HE CLAIMS) own lanquage????

Anway I'm of to bed nighty'night

Mar sin leibh! which means....Cheerio!

513 - Well done. I would support the SNP if they had a clear policy to save - not just support - the Gaelic language.

Here in Canada, the Gaelic is now only spoken on the North Shore of Cape Breton Island. It is the last bastion.

Attempts are being made to have the provincial government of Nova Scotia and federal representatives to fund classes and schools that have the expertise to teach the Gaelic. I and other like-minded individuals have encouraged such efforts.

The Gaelic Mod at St. Annes, the games at Inverary, Maxville and Lanark all do their individual and collective best to preserve a language that was, up until 35 yrs ago still spoken as the first language.

Another day - Another broken promise.

Most of the organised SNP support on here would have voted to say its ok to bin manifesto promises.

During the election - Free school transport! Yes, we'll do it!

After the election - Oh no we wont.

Promise everything.

Deliver nothing.

They wouldve slated anyone else for doing this, but now say it is ok for the SNP to do it.

#515. "I declare me-self the winner there lads..It was easy really..the truth is Hen broom is a pseudo-Scot

couldn't even be bothered to get his ar#e into Gaelic (Gàidhlig) classes some fairweather patriot."

My God but you are indeed the winner, what a sad depressing read the guff coming from yourself and the terminally moronic dunnie is. Between you, you must have the brain cells of a wilted Daisy. I visit here less and less these days, and only out of sheer curiosity to see how far AM2s insanity has progressed. I find that my work with my local SNP branch has become so much more satisfying since May 3rd. And I am very proud of the effort put in by me and colleagues that led our nation to inevitable independence.
The remarks by both of you have been among some of the most offensive racist bigoted anti Scottish bile I have read on these blogs, you are quite frankly an utter disgrace to the unionist cause. But then you are an asset to the SNP. As it is morons exactly like you that is driving the bandwagon of independence in this nation, so we should really thank you for that.
I notice that the unionist aparatchick that is AM2 has remained silent regarding your offensive diatribe. Double standards on planet unionism are par for the course. He is very quick to jump up and down in faux indignation if he gets a sniff of anti English comment, or if he finds remarks that he can spin and twist into such. But no criticism will ever come from him when racist bile such as yours is forth coming.
For the record I am a fluent Gaelic speaker, having been born and bred in the Highlands. I also speak German. I use Gaelic among people who I know and trust, not on a forum full of half wits and Walter Mitties, who have nothing more in their sad lives than inventing windswept and interesting bios for them selves to make up for the utter dreichness that is their sad and lonely lot. And to try and agitate and create animosity with their trolling act

519. AM2, Glasgow
Then again some of us read the guph that you come away with and are compelled to refute it.

519. AM2, Glasgow
Never known you to be backward about coming forward if there was a misquote you could use or a figure you could distort to serve your own 'agenda'.

517. Mr Pink
The new Government were sworn in on the 16th of May.
Parliament was officially opened on the 30th June and went straight into recess.

The opposition parties in that time were constantly bleating about the SNP pandering to the electorate and trying to wind up voters in England.

You now contend that they've done nothing?

Aye well, some of the people will never be pleased, like the organised unionist cadre employed here to make mischief by the Scotsman.

None so blind as those who refuse to listen.

The agenda of the unoinist partys is to stay in the union.
The agenda of the SNP is Independence.
It has always been that way there has never be any secret that the SNP want Independence yet some poeple are shocked that thatis the case. WHY /

"Correct. But the agenda of many of the hardcore Unionist activists on forums like these isn't to share their honest opinions. It's merely to advance their agenda. If knowingly arguing black is white or up is down can promote their "cause", then it's seen as worthwhile."

One word done and dusted. You have spouted some keech in your time but that one surely takes the biscuit. Guess who?

I would also add to that, their insane rambling and offensive remarks designed to provoke animosity, as the union slips from their grasp and straws are clutched to soak up the bile from their sour grapes. What a bunch of losers.

524. Colin John Macrae, West Lothian / 2:13pm 29 Aug 2007

IT'S CALLED DENIAL COLIN.

AM2 - Give Livilion time! He's now back as far as August 2006.....

529. AM2, Glasgow
Sorry China, sometimes the boss insists I work for a living, you know how it is?

You know I dipped into this string saw a whole lot of juvenile name calling and frankly, it isn't very attractive.

I'm heading over to the parliament website

That is great news. I hope they go further and question why MPs representing Scottish constituencies are needed at Westminster. Their duties surely can be transferred to MSPs. It would save money --- ---taxpayers money.
Justy.