Anyone of the first few links will help explain that caper :) http://www.scottwebb.co.uk/15.html

Any one EVEN :)

We SOOOO need Independence :)

Sure signs of a leader who is afraid of the populace. All in the name of controlling the population - First you institute strong "anti-terrorism" laws, which effectively take away a persons civil liberties. That requires legislation. Once they are in place, you can then make your own definition of what "terrorism" is. That DOESN'T require legislation.

What if it was defined as terrorism to criticise the PM or the party in power at the time?

But, of course, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about. It's just that Gordon Brown and his type will be the ones to tell you just what you can and cannot hide. And, of course, politicians will be exempt, just as with the Freedom of Information Act.

Britain is a democracy?? Don't make me laugh.

Hey Scottweb....guid theories.....neebs!!!!

#4 AM2 - oh yes they are!!! You're probably one of those that believe if you have nothing to hide, or have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.

Remember all those pre-election, pro-Union posts of yours? What if that was deemed a "terrorist" act??

Comment@4 AM2.......Labour doing anything good for Scotland......Now that's a conspiracy theory.

Comment@6 AJ, good to see ya mate :)

Scottweb,

Jist lending support against that bully...AM2!!!!

AM2,

Talking of conspiracy theories, do you remember the one about Lord Carrington and his part in the Profumo scandal....he dressed up as a goat during the orgy....allegedly!!!!!

He was one of your boys, wasn't he?

Does the right-winger Brown, have the credentials, to become leader of a fascist country?

The Police and the Crown Prosecution Service already abuse thepowers they have without recourse eg John Charles De Menezes, Forrest Gate-giving them more powers will be disaster.

Brown will be shortest serving PM since Alec Douglas Home succeeded MacMillan - he won't sack enough of Blairs babes ( Kelly, Hewitt, Ryan, Harman ) or Blairs Idiots, Bumbling Straw, Hain or his own Brown nosers Douglas 'no job before Paisley 'Alexander, Adam 'we ordered the carriers no we've not yes we have no we've not Orangeman' Ingram and Des 'Apology Again for Misleading ' Browne.

Brown will not answer the West Lothian Question-
English voters will see through Brown quickly-they are not as brainwashed as Scottish voters.

The strange thing about it all is that if a person exsisted who posed a real danger to the UK or the populace they would just disapear, no more heard or seen.

#11 You should be thankfull you live in a democratic country your comments are an insult to those who died in fascist regimes. Direct your attention to the plight of those who suffer oppression hunger,disease and war on a daily basis.

A continuation of the former Communist Party member, Reid, and Bliar's attempts to turn this country into a totalitarian police state. I've no doubt that Joe Stalin would have been proud of the whole seedy gang of them.

Broon is also a war criminal in that he voted for the illegal war in Iraq. He, and the rest of Bliar's cabinet are the ones to blame for imflaming terrorist activity because of their actions. Broon would be better suited to getting our troops out of Iraq, immediately. Bringing in more totalitarian legislation won't help.

Remember also, they arrested a Labour party member for heckling at a Labout party conference, under their existing terrorist legislation. If these Stalinists get their way, God help the rest of us, especially any of us who dare to criticise these unionist would be fascists and totalitarians.

As soon as Osama Bin Laddie became leader of the Alckies, Brown was immediately on the phone to congratulate him.

Scary. The two western powerhouses have lost the war on terror. They have created their own states of fear. Just think, the arrests of terror suspects in New York - suspects that only thought about committing a crime. Something is not right. It is the continual push for a one world government that will deny personal liberties and the continual monitoring of its citizens.

#17 Stuart

Stuart said:

"Just think, the arrests of terror suspects in New York - suspects that only thought about committing a crime."

I'm a little puzzled here Stuart. You say that men were arrested that had "only thought" about a crime. Hmmm, I'm having a hard time with that one. When did the FBI and NYPD begin employing mind readers and where did they find them?

I'm serious because this is big news, huge! FBI mind readers, wow!! This is really bad, thank you for calling this to our attention. Do you think that they are going to be charged under the Patriot Act's "naughty thoughts" provision?

"Willie Macleod, Wick / 4:09am 3 Jun 2007 11 You should be thankfull you live in a democratic country your comments are an insult to those who died in fascist regimes. Direct your attention to the plight of those who suffer oppression hunger,disease and war on a daily basis."

Like Iraq? Will Labour help supervise their "democratic" elections?

you read these some of these rabid nationalist rants and you realise why are rights have to guarded who knows what you lot are capable of when you are booted out of your minority positions for good and forever.

decent citizens must and should be protected from evil

Big Brother Broon will effectively end the Nanny State ... by making it a Police State. Wotta helluva state to be in. Anyone for emigration? If we're allowed to?

#21

close the door behind you when you have gone you'll not be missed

#17 you're correct! Fear is their patter and da one world government is on the menu, al dente mind you. Bilderberg 2007 is live and kickin' so wait for the next 9/11.

PERHAPS in a few months time we will shout to Blair, haste ye back. PERHAPS not. Be not deceived, Big Bruvva Broon has a heavy hand; heavier than Blair!

As a state becomes more prohibitionist and repressionist it becomes much more dangerous for its citizens.
Beware the self-proclaimed protectors of society!!!

AM2 & howyoudoinboy,

It is a well known fact that, if you spin enough, you get dizzy and lose focus and you ulimately fall on you backside ;-)

18. 57Nomad

"You say that men were arrested that had "only thought" about a crime. Hmmm, I'm having a hard time with that one."

Can't think why.

You've got hundreds locked up in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere without trial and being tortured who have done nothing wrong except being invaded by neocons.

Don't think I support Brown - he's a Stalinist criminal as well - so far left he's a fascist like your darling President.

Keep the populace scared, keep control. The USA have been doing it for years. The Army with tanks outside heathrow, how will they stop a terrorist with a tank?

#22. Not being missed by you is a plus I hadn't considered. Thanks!!! :)

I think Gordon Brown is right with the exception of increasing the 28 days holding time which would be devastating to innocent parties. The effect on their life would be very harmful.

When will Brown be arrested, for what He has done, Gold sale, pensions robbery, apart from war, The man is a crupt liar. Having him PM, is a sick joke!

All those centuries British people fought for their civil liberties and now it turns out we have too many of them. The situation is now so bad that you have roughly the same chance of being wiped out by Islamic terrorism as you do winning the lottery (assuming that a 7/7 attack happens once a year).

Let's start a policy of internment without trial, which is what a 90-day detention effectively is. After all, that worked so well in Northern Ireland during the 1970s. We could start mowing down peace protesters and creating our own terror groups as well.

Lowest form of wit, I know, but having the likes of Brown and Reid lecture us on our security needs is truly sickening when they helped create this situation in the first place.

#24

i note the inclusive rhetoric throughout the snp supporter's discourse and am assured people
who do not have the required ethnic markers
are safe and able to take a full part in the civil society of a nationalist scotland (IRONY)

and more suitable quote would be

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

"who guards the guards"

#27 still hear then ?

#31 AM2: Still, as a conservative, aren't you a bit annoyed about having to fork out for that compulsory ID card scheme which is on its way? Not to mention having to subsidize that expensive war in Iraq. To most people, this would be the single reason for having to beef up security measures and pass more laws back in Britain.

14...open your eyes and your mind Wullie...Security equals Control....we are fast heading towards a fascist state and Brown is well qualified to lead it.If he wasn't then he wouldn't have got through the selection process which is designed to weed out those with opposing views

AM2, watch this one and then tell me we have nothing to be concerned about :) Terrorstorm http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=786048453686176...

OR how about this one AM2...... Illuminazi :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-25028306374718...

13.....in the mindst of the police those of us who are not already criminals are potential criminals....this new legislation turns us all into potential terrorists....who in this country is to define what terrorism is?..Mr. Brown,Parliament,the polce....who exactly?....the UN definition of terrorism runs along the lines of those who use violence and intimidation to achieve political ends. I hardly think that applies to any of us,BUT Mr.Bush,Mr.Blair,and soon Mr.Brown ,do meet this criteria

the proposed introduction of the new powers gives Holyrood the opportunity to stand up for the civl liberties of Scots and say 'thankyou but not in Scotland'...I just wonder how many have the guts to do that

Or how about this one AM2 ......Arsenal of Hipocracy :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-48359660271548...

Brown should lock himself up, with or without trial. He has been proven to be a major cause of terrorism and a liar, like his wee pal Tony.

And if your STILL in denial AM2 .......United Nations- A look Into The Future :)http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-86834171493370...

30.....well said Boab

or......How about.....The UN Deception :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=827919062866201...

AM #31 - We are currently free to go about our business sans id card or be stopped by the polis for no reason whatsover. That freedom will be soon ended.
What's next on the cards ?
Yeah, yeah, the old 'if you've nothing to hide' cliche dressed up as a serious argument.

Scottwebb, do you really believe any of these paranoia films you keep pointing us at, or are you just trying to be helpful? While there might be a grain of truth in some of the ideas, they are all so long-winded and one-sided as to be unbelievable.

Mind you, if you were AM2 you would try to cut'n paste them, which would obviously make them true!

the capitalist conspiracy :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=449294564876413...

wisdom#38 www.scottwebb.#43

this is for you

http://www.mayang.com/textures/Architectural/html/Brick/r...

Comment@45 Phil, the good thing dude is people are waking up to this :)

With ID cards coming in via the back door, a tory who fought for the changes to the FOI Act, supported by Labour, and now Brown wants a UK version of Guantanamo. So who do Scots vote for at the General Election, the Lib-Dems are a waste of space, the tory and Labour lot want to erode our freedoms. The only comfort I take from all this is that Browns time as PM will be very short indeed, all those who flocked in the past to Labour are gone, local elections proved that.

what is everyone so afraid of? surely better anti-terroism laws will benefit all.

Be good to hear what Alex salmond is going to do about security if Scotland ever got independance. Probably call on the Tartan Army and back them up with the salvation Army.

49 who do you replace brown with? I expect you`ll go for a Tory seeing that independance is a no no.

31. AM2, Glasgow / 10:34am 3 Jun 2007

"The degree of cynicism shown on this thread is very worrying. Britain is one of the freest countries in the world, and will remain so."

It isn't cynicism, it is realism.

Don't you have CCTV cameras in Glasgow, tracking your every move?
Don't you have money-laundering regulations, which allow authorities to amass information that they should not have?
Don't you have driving licences with your photograph on, and a whole load of information held by DVLA?
Don't your police keep fingerprints and DNA samples 'just in case'?
Don't you get searched and interrogated every time you catch a flight?
Don't your businessmen get harassed to death by regulatory authorities at every turn?
Don't you have Inland Revenue, DSS and VAT inquisitors?
Don't you get questionnaires from your town hall, wanting all kinds of personal information?
Haven't you hard about the assaults by this government on the jury system and habeas corpus?
Haven't you heard about the change in the law, where silence can be taken to imply guilt?

None of this stuff was around when I was born in the middle of a war, when all our parents were fighting and struggling to preserve the freedoms that this government (and ones before it) find so objectionable.

Britain may well be one of the freest countries in the world, but that doesn't mean it's free, it just means there is less slavery here than most other places.

All of this removal of freedom was brought in by governments anxious to rule us instead of serving us, and this so-called 'war on terror' is an ideal excuse to put the whole lot of us in irons.

If Brown wants to boost anti-terror laws, he and his entire government and arch-terrorist Bliar should resign, along with most of the opposition who support them in their criminal activities, and admit their guilt.

Lia 50 - why don't they go the whole hog and give us microchip implants ? After all, "if we've nothing to hide...."

Watcher #52. Could be that Broon will be longer in No. 10 than some people expct cos Call-me-Dave is alienating his core support.

Anyway, here's hoping Broon's constituency team Kelty Jambos get f*cked by the wee Rose in the Junior Cup final today.

5...well said Bill

47....if someone people had their way myself and thousands,no millions like me would be put up against a wall...the rest I leave to your imagination...but remeber this....you are either behind the trigger or against it....I wonder where you are?

The problem with Gordon Brown is that he stirs up anti-Scottish feeling in the rest of the UK when the reality is that we can't stand him here either. Perhaps he thinks we'll forget all those sneaky taxes that have shifted more of the tax burden on those that can least afford to pay for it? Perhaps distract us all by pulling the troops out before the election?

Is Scotland full of fruit-bats or are there just a large number of them who hang out here?

What an unhappy pack of conspiracy nuts there are!

Could someone please explain why both the fanatic and the unthinking unionists on these boards are now queueing up to support the next move towards fascism in this country?

# 31 AM2

Your slip's showing!

"There are no significant civil liberties implications except for the many thousands of would-be terrorists and their supporters."

"significant"! When it comes to civil liberties, what, exactly, is the definition of "significant"?

"many thousands of would be terrorists AND their supporters"! WOW! I think many would agree that this statement speaks volumes about your state of mind on the question of "civil liberties". Many thousands, is it? And how are these "many thousands" to be identified by dear old Dixon of Dock Green? Colour? Hair style? Age? Family place of origin? Religion? Do tell. I mean, I wouldn't want to think that I had sat down beside one on the bus......or let my daughter marry one!

60...SUPE...if you're looking for CONSPIRACY NUTS you'll find them in the Cabinet ,MI5 and New Scotland Yard.....

I think something has to be done and if we cannot monitor who is coming into this country we can certainly (hopefully) monitor them while they are here.

Not so long ago we were up in arms about terrorist suspects who managed to vanish into thin air.

For the sake of peace of mind and protection of our country,I am willing to make sacrifices along the way.I know people will criticise this comment but I am all in favour of ID cards,it would help to monitor the movements of our non-law abiding citizens.

We do have many muslims who want Sharia law in this country and when that day comes,I for one will be leaving.
Islam has not progressed they still live in the middle ages,Im sorry if people find that offensive but its true.I respect they have a right and a wish to practise their religion and I personally dont have any problem whatsoever with that,what I do have a problem with is if they try to enforce sharia law here,and muslim mps/msps are getting elected,but if they want sharia law Im sorry but it is not welcome here.I am not Muslim and never will be.

#3. www.scottwebb.co.uk..: I think the same way about this decision and with most decisions that are made a Westminster. Detrimental to Scotland, best way to prevent terrorism is to stay clear of USA government. Most would be terrorist HATE the USA government.

Sorry,I forgot to add I do not agree with internment it did nothing for the Irish situation,but it seems there are people up to no good in this country who need to be monitored.

ANYONE who is up to no good should be monitored,its just a way of doing it that needs to be debated and then put into place.

I firmly believe that most of us are ordinary people going about our daily business,no matter where you are from or what you do for a living,but we have to understand since 9/11 everything has changed and I think as a country we do have to be more careful.

Perhaps we are being ruled by fear I dont know,but does anyone really want a 9/11 here?Is it not worth putting in the safeguards to try and protect us and our familes and friends?

i think that we need a country that is our own not one that is owned by America. we also need MP's with back bone who can stand up to bullies. Then we can hold our head up high again rather than moan about being a puppet on a very short string.

54.If it stops people being blown to hell,why not!

You got to do what you got to do. The determination of UK G. Brown's anti terror is based on rational and deterministic adult necessities in given measurement of the probabilities due to the nature of problematic equations given information that is intuitive and necessary knowing what he knows. I must applaud the realities of our institutional process here is Scotland where several of my family resides. I am very please with knowing that the new leadership the Brown government will connect the dots and do the math and come up with the appropriate results for the protection and defense of all society and the people as well as the infrastructure. When the international times change and everyone calms down and grows up we can take the monitors off of the backs of the common men and women so as to go about the order of civility but until then our defense and offensive is a mandate of leadership everywhere in many many nations regardless of political affiliations. The price of modernity and its luxuries is paid for with the propensities of the electronic tools and intentions that are both good and evil.
Trans-border in reach means that given say electronic achievements of the modern world of air travel, electronic near the speed of light communications in cash, ideas, results in the growth of redefinition and understanding of their use and misuse. Should you not like these times then don’t drive or air travel or use electronic equipment, but don’t move to the mountains tribes of North-West Pakistan terror-ties and their leadership of the surveillance of their women and children trading wisdom of archaic lifestyles with their cell phones, computers and weapons deals where the old is leaning to use fire for the first time and can’t even read or write except some ancient whatever.

Where will the dividing line between political protest and being a terrorist be drawn. I dont trust the Labour party one bit.

#32. I hear perfectly well, thank you. No need for hearing aids yet. Or a dictionary!

# 63 AM2

"This isn't a unionist/nationalist issue."

I was thinking of mind-sets, not issues. I just find it interesting that the arch-unionists are the ones clamouring for ever tighter control over people's lives.

Maybe you can explain why your cut and pastes (from the Telegraph, no less - now there's balanced reporting for you) are of greater veractiy that Scottwebb's links. "The Power Of Nightmares" and others make a lot more sense to me that anything the Telgraph is likely to come up with. They are historically verifiable, something which your beliefs certainly are not.

Of course, if you just keep pushing for long enough you might just create your "many thousands". Go back to Northern Ireland and see what happened there. Unionist bigoty, then violence - burning out streets of catholic families in 1969 - CREATED the IRA which caused so much trouble later. The reason that the unionists were able to do that with no retaliation at the time was that there was no IRA (except for some old men with long and romantic memories). But push them hard enough.............

My "evident wide-eyed innocence at religion" (which you in your ignorance accuse me of) is, in fact, a bitter dislike of all fundamentalist religions - how wrong you can be in your usual sweeping statements - because fundamentalism has blighted so much of my own life, and the lives of others close to me, over the years. I have no illusions about the power of fundamentalism to engender stupidity in its most refined form.

Similarly I have no illusions about the eventual results of the actions of people like you who would have the lives of ordinary people more and more strictly constrained be the increaseing powers of a state which is already out of control.

Many ordinary, law abiding people in early 1930s Germany supported the Nazis, NOT because they believed in their doctrines, but because they thought that the proverbial &qu

Government in the UK has never trusted its own citizens. American agencies (CIA and FBI) used to look at surveilance capabilities of GCHQ with loving admiration.
What is Brown going to do? introduce the techniques of population control that failed so dramatically in N.Ireland. Next thing will be internment without trial, the terror laws as proposed are a backdoor move to just this!

All of this mess is Amercica's not ours. Yet we are sucked into it by the snake in the grass Tony Blair. We should let USA get on with it I mean they stole all of Iraq's money(allegedly)

Lia, When are you doing that whole psychological thing on BB. I forget what day they do it on!

p.s. Spell check say theres no spelling mistakes.
But they've been wrong before and will be again some time soon.

74...Laura....it looks like that at first sight but ....the U.S. provides the military muscle whilst the brains behind the operation most likely reside in the U.K.

75,eve.lets not go down the cheap shot road,your not maisie,lets have a proper debate. spell check working ok for now!

o.k, in an ideal world there would be no such thing as terrorists, but we are not in an ideal world,as such the government of the uk has to do whatever it things fit to protect it's people. We may not like it but that's the way it is.

I think Tony Blair was a control freak and Gorden Brown is following in his foot steps. Though Gorden Brown will say any, may be even do a wee sing song and a wee bit of a dance to become the new PM. He may be getting the permeation handed to him on a plate, BUT there's still a risk that the party might rebel against him if he doesn't please them.

Though at the same time he comes across like he's completely out of touch with people and in particular the people of Scotland. He says he Brittish most Scots say there Scottish.

There's nothing wrong with a wee bit of control in certain areas BUT everyone wants to feel like they have some control over their own destiny.

Most people don't want these ID card which carry rather highly personal data which know one should share with anyone unless it benefits them to do so.

#77. lia: Your a BIT late for descending that!!!

P.S. Spell checker has possible malfunction now that I've written more than two lines. I'm so so very sorry if it offends your delicate vision for perfection.

78...how right you are,I couldn't agree more.We do need protection from terrorists.Tony Blair,John Reid Brown and all those who support the eradication of our freedom are the REAL terrorists along with their friends in the international community......Al Qaeda,9/11 etc...who financed,trained and motivativated those who carry out these operations?That question begs an answer.Hitler set up Dachau for the good of the German population,to rid society of terrorists,layabouts,the disabled,the Gipsies,the Jews and all those classified as non desirable by ....guess who....the Nazis. There were many in Europe and the U.S. at the time who admired this approach and it seems there are a few around today,Lia.

58. AM2, Glasgow

"You still don't know what we're up against, do you? Around 40% of young (aged 16-24) British Muslims want democracy to be overturned in favour of shari'a law."

In my dad's day, they would have given them a good smack for their cheek.

That's what we should do, there's not many of them, and they need a lesson in good manners!

George Orwell was right!!!

81...I can see lots of bigotry in your reply to Ronnie w.....taken that such a large percentage of British Muslims want Sharia Law,or so we are told,let's look back at the people who CREATED this problem in the first place,by opening the floodgates to these potentaial troublemakers.This so called problem didn't happen by accident....past governments since 1945 have encouraged it!

# 81 AM2

So you've sunk to the personal abuse level already. And pretty stupid abuse at that. "Ulta-left drivel" indeed. It's called history, actually. Nothing "political" in that sense about anything I said, except maybe for the politics of unintended consequences.

Only this time they can't really be called "unintended", because there are the lessons of history to learn from......or not learn from if you should so chose.

By the way, I think the unintended consequence of your remarks is the answer to my initial question - why does the unionist mind-set seem to support the surveillance society with all of its potential dangers?
Think about it.

Orwell was damned right !

64. Mop, Scotland

"I know people will criticise this comment but I am all in favour of ID cards"

I am all in favour of ID cards for people who are drawing state benefits. We need to know who these people are that we are paying for.

86...because Unionists are afraid.....control is slowly slipping away as more of us question what we are told....the more this happens the more scapegoats we are going to get for taking away our freedoms.....you must remeber of course,it's for our own good....big brother knows best

88,Bill...nothing wrong with an id....the problem lies in what type of id card....there's no need for biometric details to be held by the state,or fingerpints,or details of your religion .....a simple photo id is adequate for the task.the right to demand sight of it must be restricted to Government depts and the police....

#82 - the Right Question, the Only Question!

Once you get rid of the Rule of Law you are on the slippery slope to the Third Reich, v2007 - #14 please note!

91.....the rule of law has been set aside and we are on that slippery slope NOW

How come the Palestinians get to vote for Hamas, but I dont get a vote on this new 'Stalinist Style' political appointment to Prime Minister?

Give us a general election please.

As soon as there is an election, you are gone m8.

What tony blair is the the serious fraud office you are to english democracy.

Wouldn't the title of the article be more accurate if it were "Brown Targets Civil Liberties"?

eve. do you think your the only one with spelling problems,get over yourself,and stop the bitch fest. Now back to the debate. these islam extremists will stop at nothing, if it means giveing up certain freedoms so be it.

95...there are no exclamation marks with wisdom...you have answered your own question...just look at yourself in the mirror.....and you're so TWEE with it...it's quite amusing really....I tell you what,we'll compromise,you give up your freedom and we'll hang onto ours.That way we'll all be happy

I know it's a tough job, but somebody has to do it; so I might as well volunteer. Welcome back, lia! I hope this means you have fully recovered your powers of persuasion and conciliation. We'll all rejoice when you first tell some blithering idiot to 'get a life!'.
Seriously, sincerely.

94...reading your eply to Ronnie..perhaps pompous is a more fitting word ...it describes you better than bigoted....and the info coming from cnn,the bbc,the state dept and westminster isn't drivel ?....you are truly a believer,one of the diehard faithful,....dream on

eccuse my spelling...I missed the R from reply in 100...too busy shaking with laughter at Lia

#94 AM2

The way most people try to wriggle out from under something they don't like, don't want to see, is to stick a derogatory label on it. They haven't changed anything, but they think that they have been oh so clever. "Hard Left"? What's that supposed to mean? To me the hard left are no different from any other fascist. Hard left and hard right join as they go round the circle.

If you are refering to the arguments over 9/11....I haven't seen or read anxything by Michael Moore, nor do I know who the woman is, but I HAVE seen the evidence against the nonsense put out by the White House. I have heard lectures by engineers and so on as to the strength of that evidence, I have watched what ACTUALLY happened and listened to the blatent lies put out by government (that will be the American government for you that's never too sure) agencies at the time, such at telling the people of N. York that the air was safe to breath when it was actually extremely dangerous, and has since killed very many people, and virtually all of the search dogs in used on the site.

I know that they lied about 9/11 as they lied about Iraq. The question is only who was ACTUALLY involved, not whether. And it sure wasn't some Saudi sitting in a cave in Afganistan!

Now, whether you like the history of what actually happened, as far as we can ever know, or whether you prefer to be soothed be the sanitised rubbish being put out be government circles, it doesn't alter the fact that the whole issue is being used by the British government to monitor and control the citizens of this country as NEVER before, neither during the Second World War, nor when the IRA campaign was at its height and there were some real enemies at the gate.

And just to keep the record straight, and you from getting too upset. I would support the automatic expulsion from this country of any immigrant who took part in any "terrorist" activity, I would be the last person to suppo

99 Pictus...are you taking the P..s ?

#103, Wisdom - Wot? Me?

The threats we face, the considerable inconveniences we suffer when travelling abroad and the public expense of coping with these threats are all due to brown, usually bearded, male, Asian Islamofascists set on extending the Islamic Umma. Legislation which would deal with these people is just fine, and most of us don't care if it involves an element of ethnic profiling directed at the followers of the Religion of Peace. But we all know it won't work that way. Any legislation will come down just as hard on the rest of us and reduce still further our areas of freedom of action.

Gordon Brown is a man who has never had a real job, has spent all his adult life in politics and (if reports are to be believed) is fueled by a burning passion to become Prime Minister. We cannot trust our remaining freedoms to a geek like this. Resist.

102...Ronnie...you've done your research Ronnie as have lots of us and the evidence points to what you've written....the problem lies in the minds of the population at large who have been conditioned from the cradle..eg Lia and the like

107 ..Symbian...Lia should read those words and dwell on them...while there's still time

pictus. yes, my chest infection is a lot better, thank you for your concern. I think it won't be long before i utter those very words! lol

Go get'em Brown

106 I want to retain the freedom to keep my personal information private to me...I want to retain the right to not have to explain to police at a port of embarkation where I am going to ,how much money I have or the purpose of my travel....I don't want to be stopped in the street,asked where I have come from or where I am going to....I don't want my dna taken or kept on record when I have not been convicted of a criminal offence,the God I worship is my business,not the States...I could go on but we'll start with these...

#110, lia - Very glad to hear it! I don't always agree with some of your points but we seem to share a similar sense of humour. During the war, I was stationed at an aerodrome at Croft, Yks, not far from you. I wonder if I may have known your mother! (evil chuckle!)

wisdom, now there's a contradiction in terms! what did you find so bl--dy funny, oh,don't tell me was it when i said i'd rather have less freedom,than be blown to hell!!

#31 AM2
I agree. Do these posters live in a virtual world? Where is their world? I get out a fare bit so if life in Britain is that bad there is an amazing conspiracy to hide it from me. In general life for most of the people I meet is pretty good - my civil liberties have improved over the years - health and education is getting better - food and essentials are cheaper so we have more disposable income.
PS I'm far from being a Labour voter but Gordon Brown's heart is in the right place which gets him a long way.

113....perhaps there were deluded Moslems involved..the question is not who carried out the actions,these are mere foot soldiers,but who financed trained and planned them,and who profited from them....an indication as to who profited would be the companies who are raking it in reconstructing Iraq,selling Iraqi oil,manufacturing and selling weapon and ammo and security equipment....the UK and US govts have taken this God given opportunity to extend the powers of the state and curtail our freedoms...so I wonder,who is behind these actions? any ideas anyone?

Will people please realise that Civil Liberties and Human Right Laws are there to protect us FROM OUR OWN POLITICIANS. Do you think it is just a coincidence (or do you not even think about it), that anti-terrorist laws are targeted mainly against Civil Liberties and Human Rights.

I cannot believe the number of people on this thread who are willing to lay down and blindly do whatever the politicians tell them.

And don't think a Tory government will do any different. Any anti-terrorist laws brought in be Brown will NEVER be scrapped by the Tories - you have AM2's word on that!!

pictus. mum and dad were married in 1940,when were you at croft.

I would like to continue,we could go on and on,happily that is not possible,my late lunch is ready...I would only ask you all to dwell on the words of Pastor Niemoller...see above

# 113 AM2

Haven't you got your reading glasses on, old boy? I said :

"The question is only who was ACTUALLY involved, not whether. And it sure wasn't some Saudi sitting in a cave in Afganistan!"

You will notice that I haven't claimed to know who was involved. Nor am I going to claim to know, though I am sure enough in my own mind who was behind the whole thing - the ones who planned and organised the whole thing - and, as I said, it wasn't some Saudi in Afganistan.

However, all of that is getting off the point. It is how the event has been used by governments which is the point. And how that use is going to affect the minds, and later the actions, of the disaffected in this country. Are they going to lock ALL of them away without trial? Just how do YOU think this backlash is going to be handled? And what will the cost be to the ordinary citizen living in this then fascist state.

115, "lia," have you ever pondered the meaning of statements like the following?

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
For the full text of this speech, see:
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/writings/libertyordeath...

"But there are no more nations beyond us; nothing is there but waves and rocks, and the Romans, more deadly still than these - for in them is an arrogance that no submission nor good behaviour can escape. Pillagers of the world, they have exhausted the land by their indiscriminate plunder, and now they ransack the sea. A rich enemy excites their cupidity; a poor one, their lust for power. East and West alike have failed to satisfy them. They are the only people on earth to whose covetousness both riches and poverty are equally tempting. To robbery, butchery and rapine, they give the lying name of 'government'; they create a desolation and call it peace."

I doubt you recognise this one, either, but pull out your handy copy of Tacitus' Agricola and look for the speech of Calgacus if you want to read the full thing. With reference to this one, you may try to suggest that the Islamofascists are the danger facing us today, just as the Romans were the danger in Calgacus' day (though I suspect that your admiration for Empire is also greater than your love of freedom), but in fact, it is "government" and "Empire" that remains the danger. Are Islamofascists dangerous? Sure, but wasn't the other Abrahamic religion bent on converting all of Europe by the sword (*cough* Christianity *cough*) also dangerous --- and aren't some of them still dangerous today? I would be much more concerned with the dangers of governmen

The best comment I heard on the subject was from an "ordinary" citizen on the streets of London.

She said, and I quote, "I think we have to give up liberty to protect freedom."

Just about sums it up for me, folks. Never cease to be amazed at what some people say.

#97. lia: I'm no being Bitchy, I would just like an apologies after what you said on yesterday story in particular I found your Last comment the most offensive.

I know most people have problem with spelling. You were the one who made a big issue out of it yesterday. You've crossed a big read line. why couldn't you have just said that in your last comment on yesterday story instead of insisting you had the right to comment on highly personal and sensitive area.

And I'm not one to back down until I've had an apology or anoth time has pasted.

It wouldn't surprise me if you supported the government knowing every last detail about every one. Big Brother watching condemning you when you say one word out of place.

P.S. You were in wrong yesterday, Please expet that.

126.I have met many people with your point of veiw, and they always seem to be the ones that shout the loudest when something goes wrong. now I'll say again, if it means that my daughters can go about their business and be safe,i'm all for it.

~112 wisdom

whats he up to seems a bit fishy to me keep an eye on him mi5/mi6

#129 symbian

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson

Pastor Martin Niemöller may have a point but it was the BRITISH ARMY alongside their allies which saved freedom for the world

#133 spot on

that's the tactic finally somebody realised

132, maybe it would be best if the citizens demanded their right and responsibility to defend themselves, rather than abdicating such to the government. When something goes wrong, I am fully capable of defending myself and those entitled to my protection. I certainly won't be looking to the ineffectual government to do it for me.

#131. Symbian: It's difficult when some has just brought up the comment I thought where in the past.

I can't get an aplogie form my schools about the way they treated me, because it's too late. BUT I can demand one from Lia, whose brought up the painful memorays and seems completly heartless about it.

I want to use my experence to help empower people BUT it appears, some people lack the abilty to understand. I feal so depressed after the comment she wrote this morning on yeasterdays story. She one angry women BUT I don't give in. If I gaven I would be still living with my parents and would never have found the strengh to comment and debate on pages such as these.

#17 Stuart

In case you are interested...these 3 and the 4th man were planning to blow up the jet fuel storage tanks and the lines. For those of you who have not ben the US...get out a map of the United States...Those lines go from NY to Pennsyvania..That would mean there would be explosions from NY to PA. 3 States!!. In its wake it would take down hundreds, if not millions of people, and destroy billions upon billions in real estate.
The FBI has been on this for the past year..They sent in an FBI INFORMANT....no mind readers.
They "moved in" to arrest when they felt that the first steps to setting this off was happening.

134....I am sure these agencies are on the case

134...I am confident that these agencies are on the case

The truth of the matter is this, we can have all the anti-terror laws and surveillance in place - arrest all the al-Qaeda wannabees, as the BBC puts it - but tell me, how does a man with MDR Tuberculosis get on a plane from the Czech Republic and fly across the Atlantic - and not get stopped before his departure. He only needs to infect one person, let alone the 28 people in close proximity. He is a biological walking time bomb, whose stupidity will a have serious impact on the lives of his fellow passengers. But gosh, he's a lawyer . . .

130....if you believe that the US and UK are not capable of this then you are understimating their military,technical and intelligence capability.....SOE did a very good job in Europe against a sophisticated enemy.....we have had 70 since then to refine these methods and refined they have been.....all that is required is the motivation to act in this manner and the motivation is there

# 130 AM2

You still haven't grasped the point, have you? To take two of your examples, Israel created and encouraged to development of Hezbollah and Hamas - The Law Of Unexpected Consequences! Now they are stuck with a problem of their own creation.

Who is the actions you are advocating going to create and encourage the development of? How are you going to handle that development when it comes - don't tell me. Shock and Awe. That should sort them out. Never fails, does it? Once upon a time there was a little country called Iraq...................

And the unexpected consequences were........?

A great example to be following on the streets of Britain. Of course, we could all give up our liberty to protect freedom, eh AM2?

138...I believe it was the Red Army that actually destroyed the fighting capability of the German Army at Stalingrad and later at Kursk.That is not belittling the contribution of the Allies in the West,but let's have credit where it is due

133....ALL thinking people who ask the wrong questions are the target be they Scots ,Irish,Welsh,English,or whatever

apologies Symbian.....I should huv known you couldnae be sae daft

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,30100-12...

54...Pilrig...don't encourage Lia ,please....he's bad enough as it is

The problem, Lia, with the thought process that as long as it's someone else - another skin pigmentation, another religion, another country of origin - is that it is ALWAYS a slippery slope. The danger lies in the inevitability that it comes around to you - and your daughters. How do you guard against the state saying that all blonde women of scottish descent from Perthshire must be rounded up and interned because statistics are now showing that these women have a marked propensity for disobeying traffic laws and might kill someone... A scenario no more ridiculous than assuming all muslims are terrorists. Considering the terrorist violence in the UK has, until very recently, been between two supposedly "Christian" factions, I find the current atmosphere of state sponsored fear mongering to be fatuous and extremely bigotted.

155...a cross dresser actually ...more than that I can't say...DON'T GO THERE !

Ironic that his name is "Brown", as in the "Brownshirts" are returning. Orwell warned us years ago.
Over here, Bush declared himself a dictator a couple of weeks ago, in case of a terrorist attack, which of course can easily be staged by our own government.

154...Catherine my dear you're wasting your time.Lia's in a state of shock....Santa Claus is a fairy tale,George Brown is a bad man...please it's all too much to take in on a quiet Sunday evening

#122, lia - I was at Croft from early 1944 to June, 1945. I was kidding, of course, about knowing your Mum; but a lot of female-type persons used to come from miles around to our dances.

#143. Symbian: Thanks for the advice, I thought their was a limit of 10years or something.
My Mum destroyed my copy of my high Schools report after I was properly assessed because it was upsetting me, in the manner it was written. I don't no if they've still got their copy. I'm not sure I can prove what happen in primary school. I do sometime worry that they still exist (it contain little truth in it), I should really ask someone who knows.

Thanks for the counseling session.

wisdom, you really are a waste of space, would you like to repeat your commen at 156 to my HUSBAND!

pictus. Dances were all the rage then, my mum-in-law went to one every night,apart from monday,that was hair washing night!

158. o.k you win, i've tried to express my personal opinion,WHICH I AM ENTITLED TO, but hey you are not interested in haveing a debate, why don't you and the other fools on this thread stop throwing your dummy out of the pram.

# 160 AM2

Your post is a garbled mish mash. It would take a book to sort it out, not a few brief remarks - and in the course of that I think you would find that there is a great deal we would be agreeing on.

However, the subject was this country, and the proposed manic micro-managing of the lives of every citizen for which Gordon Brown is famous. The question was the effect such legislation will have on the already disaffected in this country in light of the effect it had in Northern Ireland.

Do you know, and correct me if I am wrong, in all these posts you haven't once addressed this question. Not once. Lists, links, distractions, but never once the question which Britain is facing today as the noose is drawn ever more tightly around the necks of each and every citizen.

How do you remove the powers of a police state once they are in place, and how do you control the inevitable backlash?

# 166 AM2

Let me try this one more time. We we not talking about FOREIGN policy!

Secondly, you were the one at the start who was going on about the "many thousands of would be terrorists and their supporters"........young people, born in Britain for the most part, who have been alienated by Britain. You don't think they are disaffected? Well, if they weren't before they will be after you and other likeminded people have finished slapping your labels in them.

Thirdly, a backlash against a police state speaks for itself. Do you think that there wouldn't be one?

Fourthly. To take just one of the proposals - already thrown out by parliament - 90 days in custody without charge. What ever happened to innocent until proved guilty? What ever happened to Habeas Corpus?

Simple measures?

The last time I was on the London Underground I was told at every station, over the public address system, to report unattended bags. Fair enough.
But then I was told to report suspicious looking individuals. In the space of one afternoon I counted 239 ... Then gave up!

Might it not be just a little more to the point to investigate the VERY suspicious BBC'S Jane Standley in New York who reported ... LIVE ... the odd free-fall collapse of WTC Building 7 a FULL 23 MINUTES BEFORE IT ACTUALLY DID?
Check it out folks, if you find it hard to believe.
- While you are doing it, try to swallow the BBC Richard Porter's explanation of a "cock-up" on a confusing day and the loss of all three copies of the mandatory ENTIRE footage of 9/11!!

Now you DO know the Moon is made of cheese!
"Terrorists" ?? ... Exactly who are they?

168 Bogmon Which bits?

As the song goes "Freedom is just another word for having nothing to lose". Keeps the "chattering classes" happy though.

Ronnie W.
Do you really think there would be a backlash? Unfortunately, I don't think there would - or at least not until far too late. Look at your DNA database - Thousands of innocent people's DNA still on record even though whatever crime the data was collected for was attributed to someone else. Identity cards with biometric info that Cambridge techno geeks cracked in a couple of hours. Cops with machine guns at airports. I was held up at Heathrow last month (not for long, mind you) simply because the prepubescent customs agent wanted to know "what kind of friends" I was visiting - not understanding the question, I looked askance at her and apparently broke some kind of rule or law and questioned the questioner. I look around with amazement and wait for the multitudes to stop bleating baaaaaa and wake up to the fact that this War on Terror is noting more than state- (and here you can insert "The States")sponsored fear mongering that is doing far more harm than good.
I hope you are right and that a backlash soon begins, but I fear the sheep will will continue to mill about

I'm with Shami Chakribarti on this one i.e. officially 'legitimise' the phone tapping (it goes on anyway all the time , as the so-called lawful intercept kit which is installed at the heart of every major telecoms companies in the so-called UK) and stick with the current 28 day detention period.

Nobody who has read Tom Bowers biography of Gordon Brown will have any illusions about this gravely flawed character and I see that Bowers has a new version coming out tomorrow entitled Gordon Brown - Prime Minister.

I will not need to buy it and the title just completely sickens this Englishman.

Scottish professional politicians should ply their trade in their own country - Scotland.

#50--Lia---""what is everyone so afraid of? surely better anti-terrorism laws will benefit all""....

we went through the whole 'scare-mongering' by the left over the "Patriot-Act" in 2001...pretty much what your going through now....they had people believing the 'black helicopters' were circling our houses, listening to our phone calls, watching our every move on the internet....didn't happen!!..isn't happening!!...& will never happen!!!.....all these posters giving you a hard time just haven't a clue..
stick to your guns, don't let them get to you:-))

Our poster Sandy (# 176) from the USA should ask him/herself a couple of questions.

How come that (potential) terrorists in the USA are usually picked up before they can move, as in the recent JFK incident?

I believe that is because the Americans themselves are probably the most spied upon citizens in the world.

Nobody should be particularly surprised about that as the USA is, by an order of magnitude, the worlds most technologically advanced country.

It is just sad that terrorist events on the US homeland caused the Federal Government to turn its surveillance technology upon its own citizens.

Oviously all the terrorism in the world today is the fault of Israel. Please all anti semites , sorry I should have said anti Zionists, talk it up. These people are behind all the ills in the world from the Black plague to Michael Jackson. Remember it's only the bible and history that say they built Jerusalem and made Israel such an attractive place to all the " Palestinians " who came to the land in the 20th century to get economic benefit from the development these Zionists brought. We can rrevise history, we can create propaganda, and we can also lie, just a little.

173. Scythia

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, freedom ain't worth nothing but it's free.

These are the actual words of the song. Food for thought.

Let's put a caption bubble in that photo of Him saying; "Does anyone here know what Alex Salmond's phone number is?....."

176. sandy

Couple of things.

There were black helicopters all around when Bush came visiting Blair a few years back. They wouldn't have done much good though, as anyone who had an RPG could have taken out AF1 and AF2 from dozens of vantage points on the airport approach. Same goes for any airport in the world; security is a joke.

In the UK all phone calls, all faxes and all emails are routinely intercepted. You've surely heard of Echelon and GCHQ? In my nearest town, they proudly boast that they can track you on CCTV from one end to the other. Meanwhile they are dismantling our legal system to make it more like Stalin's. This is Blair's legacy, one which Brown is going to build on.

Don't be fooled about the state of 'freedom' in the US! The many new directives handed down this year-repeal of Habeus Corpus, Posse Commitatus Act (military can now be used for domestic policing) Federal control of the states' National Guard, the constant data theft that no doubt finds its way into the TIA computers-everything is in place, including the pResident's right to by-pass Congress and bomb Iran and take over all the goverment in an emergency-all is in place, just waiting for the matchstick event to explode what was once the USA into a police state of gigantic proportions-and the UK will soon resemble it's not so fictional counterpart in the movie 'V for Vendetta'! Repudiate Brown's direction if you still can!

#178--John R Constable---our technology had nothing to do w/the 6 in N Jersey(discovered by a 20yr/old) or the JFK/3(turned in by an informant)...technology took over after 'human' intelligence......

""it is just sad that terrorist events on the US homeland caused the Federal Government to turn it's surveillance technology upon it's own citizens""

perhaps if you were to 'google' the "Patriot Act" you may learn that your very wrong in that statement...

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."

What this country needs are citizens with the courage to stand up to the biggest terrorist around since 1066 the English government.

"When the United Kingdom stripped her citizens of the basic right of self defense (sic) in 1953, MPs arguing for the measure insisted that it was their duty, not yours, to protect you, and that carrying a weapon constituted an insult to government by suggesting that they couldn't keep order. The fact that they actually couldn't protect you is immaterial. They just hated being reminded of it. A subject of the crown might actually save their own life with a weapon, but they would do irreparable damage to their government's feelings. One look at Britain today tells us which concern they found to be more important, and shows us the terrible price people pay to keep their government happy." -- by J. Shaftoe

#186--Bill,england----the problem i have w/all the scare/mongers is they are disrupting peoples lives when there's no reason...folks believe this & are frightened every day.....all they have to do is look how they live, if you aren't a bad guy, you have nothing to worry about....i have no worries of our gov't surveilling me or knocking on my door....i have no terrorist tendencies:o)

169, it was not the League of Nations, but the United Nations, and it wasn't following WW I, but rather following WW II. The UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (November 29, 1947) is what you're trying to talk about.

But exactly how was it legal? Are you suggesting that the UN has the legal authority to dismantle national boundaries and create entirely new nation-states? Such an act suggests that national sovereignty is a lie, and can be subverted at will by a body that many already see as aspiring to be the governing body of a one-world state.

Enoch was right.

#188--Catamount---you have got to stop watching movies & come into the real world!!......
delusion at it's best!!

Sandy, maybe you yourself should read up on the USA PATRIOT Act, and then go back and look at the US Declaration of Independence. The self-same things that are mentioned in the Declaration as reasons for the revolution against British dominance are today being done by the US government to their own citizens.

Oh, wait, you voted for the shrub, didn't you?

Croman,

Isn't Sandy a Democrat?

193. sandy

In an ideal society, you are right, the innocent citizen has nothing to fear from the government. But our society is not ideal, our servants have become our rulers!

I think our present government poses a bigger threat to our country than all the terrorists combined.

Good night all.

God save us from Gordon Brown.

Brown is a cowardly politician and was hiding during all the contraversial times during the past ten years. And now he is going to be PM. That is one scary thought. He will be a disaster.

#197--Croman mac Nessa----i'll betcha we have more freedom AFTER the 'Patriot Act" was implemented, than the UK has right now, before the "blue-print" of Gordon Brown....

every law used from the "Patriot Act" to date, has been looked at by the court & each time it's used it's tested, in court.....that's how we do it here...our Constitution is not impaired by the "Patriot Act"...

#198--AJ--you need to tell me what you meant by "Brazillian" on the other thread!!!!

#204--AM2---you have your work cut out for you then!!:-))

#190 AM2 in Glasgow

... Enjoy the dream while you may ...

Morning will not be long in the coming; for all of us!

198, AJ fi Fife, I find the suggestion highly doubtful, given the rhetoric he/she is spouting, which strongly resembles propaganda produced by the Republican National Committee.

201, AM2, the Mandate to which you refer asserted the right of Jews to live in Palestine (and extended certain privileges to a Jewish population, whilst attempting to ensure that the Arab population was not discriminated against), and did not establish a nation-state. What you said in 169 was "The creation of Israel was entirely legal." The creation of Israel did not come about until after UN General Assembly Resolution 181. Perhaps you conflated the two edicts? Your resort to the League of Nations Mandate has allowed you, however, to equivocate as regards my questions. Nevertheless, the questions still stand; you have not addressed them, but instead answered questions of your own making. However, I will grant that the entity of "Palestine" was not a nation-state, but the question remains how it was "legal" for anyone to hand the territory over to the Israelis, allow the persecution of "Palestinians" (read: Arabs) and theft of their property (whether they were nomadic or not is of no relevance; the border was an artificial construct imposed from without), and subject all residents of the territory to a newly created government in which the "Palestinians" (read: Arabs) were viewed as aliens not worthy of an alleged promise supposedly made by a relatively insignificant local deity with a reputation for pettiness, genocide, and jealousy.

205, the USA PATRIOT Act is an attempt to repeal the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the United States of America. But don't worry, when the Democrats take office, they will abuse that Act for their own political ends, just as the Republicans have done. We'll see how quickly you change your tune then.

Just a comment on one of the five measures in the article:

"Make terrorism an aggravating factor in sentencing;"

I'm stumped. In what circumstances would this be applied? I'm pretty sure terrorist acts are already illegal.

#210--sorry to burst your bubble, but the "Bill of Rights" is set in stone!! & the "Constitution of the United States of America" can only be amended by 2/3 vote in both the Senate & House of Representatives, then ratified by 2/3 of the Governor's of all 50 states...
neither are impaired by the "Patriot ACT"...next?

#212

Yes, but even in the racially motivated situation, the concept is fairly clear. But what kind of crime short of a terrorsit act itself would this rule apply to. I can only think of something such as theft of a weapon with intent to commit a terrorst act. But surely that would require the same proof as a conspiracy charge, which already carries severe sentencing.

Ahh, got it, maybe. The judge can determine the terrorist element and doesn't require a jury's verdict. Am I on the right lines?.

#198--AJ--i will whisper this so as Croman won't hear.....I'M A CONSERVATIVE......don't ever ever call me a liberal..ever, again!!....i'll tell about your goat costume if you do:-))

#214 "It is a strange policy."

Especially as you'd have to kill at least two people to get the reduced sentence. :-)

'night.

#214--Hugh V McLachlan---we have a similar law here..it's called a 'hate crime'....we too have laws that apply to all types of crime, but they had to go one step further....with a special crime against blacks...

#215--Selgovae---our terrorist crimes are under an umbrella crime....it includes such as drug dealers in addition to those arrested for the actual terrorist act.
that way they can get the money going to the terrorist org's....perhaps that is what is meant...
perhaps a bit of the Patriot act is showing:-)

213, the Bill of Rights has been being subverted for decades, by both Republicans and Democrats. If the police stop you as you're driving, current US federal and state law allows them to search your vehicle without a warrant. Clinton's Crime Bill and all other instances of "gun control" are in blatant violation of the 2nd Amendment. If Cannabis is found growing on your property (whether you planted it there or not), current US federal law insists that the federal government has the authority to seize it without due process. The US Food and Drug Administration (and the DEA) has been ignoring the 9th and 10th Amendments for what seems like ages, and would apparently like to make vitamin supplements and herbal medicines illegal, or at least subject them to regulation. In fact, the 9th and 10th Amendments are ignored by anyone in the US federal government who finds them inconvenient. And on and on and on. And then along comes the USA PATRIOT Act, and you don't even pay enough attention to see what it really does because you've already been fleeced of your rights, and the Act in question only makes the fleecing more solid. Amongst many other unconstitutional provisions, it openly attacks attorney-client privacy, legalises surreptitious entry and search, expands electronic surveillance, cancels the 4th Amendment, cancels the 5th Amendment, cancels the 6th Amendment, cancels the 8th Amendment, and overturns the system of checks and balances written into the US Constitution. Now go read the actual text. It's 1200 pages in length, so settle in for a long reading. If you don't bother to read it, you have no grounds for telling me what it does and doesn't do.

216, how did the territory in question become "unincorporated," who were the sellers of the land in question, and how did they come into "possession" of the land?

#41 - scottwebb.co.uk

I notice you posted a documentary presented by the John Birch society.
Incidentally I had been reading about Congressman Lawrence P. McDonald who disappeared in the downing of flight KAL OO7. Dr. Lawrence Patton McDonald (D-GA) was also simultaneously Chairman of the John Birch Society.

http://www.rescue007.org/story.htm

McDonald was the one who spearheaded the efforts against the Bush version of the New World Order. In 1976 he wrote the introduction to the "Rockefeller File", a book exposing the Rockefeller' financial holdings and secret intentions.

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will.

If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

David Rockefeller

You have probably already read "The rockefeller File" If not here's a link to it.

http://planetquo.com/The-Rockefellers

#217, Sandy - May I remind you that, by submitting, you agreed, among other things, not to threaten anyone about their goat costume.

Seems like a pretty sharp chap, this Broon.

#25 Bill

Bill said:

"You've got hundreds locked up in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere without trial and being tortured who have done nothing wrong except being invaded by neocons."

Really, Bill. In the entire history of the US our worst enemies have accused us of being a lot of things but never, never, have we been accused of being impractical. Now, why would we go to all the trouble and expense of torturing people when we have an entire cadre of mind readers at our disposal?

You and your neo-com pals like # 17, Stuart F, Canada, should try to avoid the silly contradictions.

#178 John C

John C says:

"How come that (potential) terrorists in the USA are usually picked up before they can move, as in the recent JFK incident?"

John, it's because the alternative is to pick them up after they have committed their crime. Would that make you feel better?

#182 Bill

Bill said:

"173. Scythia

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, freedom ain't worth nothing but it's free.

These are the actual words of the song. Food for thought."

Once again, Bill, you're wrong. These are the lyrics.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing' left to lose:
Nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free."

Written by Kris, sung by Janis, piss off, Bill.

#210 Croman

Croman said:

"205, the USA PATRIOT Act is an attempt to repeal the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the United States of America."

Croman, are you an American. If you are then I assume you can tell everyone which one of the first ten amendments you are referring to. Can you? I don't think you can. Please though, because if you're right, I want to know about it, please specify which part of the Patriot Act overturns which amendment?

Do you understand that there is a separation of powers in the US. Every law is subject to review by the Supreme Court. The Court is a separate and independent branch of government and its decisions are not subject to review or repeal by the legislature or the executive branches of government. They are extremely vigilant. Your assertions, while passionate, are ill informed.

Al’Qaeda and Whabist expansionist ideology pose us a conundrum: ‘Leave your Western societies open so that we may infiltrate and attack them, or close your open societies to Islam, and therefore betray the principles of democracy and the modern secular state’. They win either way.

The problem with this debate is like 19th century political debate, it is entirely Eurocentric. It presumes all the people in the world want out type of freedoms and liberties.

The challenge for our society is not over whether convicted terrorists are deported. It is about how to deal with a population who simply doesnt believe in the nation-state as a political organisation and who believes their religious principles are higher than any other.

In twenty years time, after the UCU have boycotted Israel out of existence, the Islamic pressure to change the UK to fit Islam, will drive this issue to the extreme:

Will we choose an inclusive society where our deference to Islam is part of society (and foreign policy), or whall we remove Islam from our open socieities? The real challenge lies ahead.

"Make terrorism an aggravating factor in sentencing;"
I'm stumped. In what circumstances would this be applied? I'm pretty sure terrorist acts are already illegal
Just insert racism in place of terrorism - it's much worse to beat up a dark person than a white one because it's a "racially agggravated" crime - same probably applies to "gays". It's the motive that gets punished, not the crime

228, maybe you should have kept reading before you inserted your foot into your mouth. I bet you haven't read the Act either, just like Sandy. But like her/him also, your political leanings were apparent some time ago (in your case, in comments on several previous articles; in Sandy's case, in her/his attempt to defend the USA PATRIOT Act in the comments on this article), and of course you're going to defend this piece of legislation which was ramrodded through the two Houses of Congress without sufficient time for review by those elected as "representatives."

No, I'm not going to serve up the several provisions of the 1200-page-long Act which subvert not only the Bill of Rights, but also other aspects of the US Constitution, for you here. You need to read the thing and see for yourself what it really is, rather than trusting the Grand Oil Party to do your thinking for you.

#233--Croman mac Nessa--your lack of knowledge of the "Patriot Act", "Constitution w/the "Bill of Rights" is amazing!!!......57Nomad ask you a specific question @228 & you respond with accusations!!.....57Nomad wasn't asking for ""several provisions", he asked for an ""amendment"".......you have no answer, for it's obvious you haven't read one of the above...

234--should be 'ask(ed)--second line...

234, do not assume facts not in evidence. I can quote most of the Bill of Rights, but even if I did so, you lot would accuse me of having copied it from a website (which is a pretty easy thing to do, granted). You presume to blather about my supposed lack of knowledge when you haven't even read the Act being debated. I have. While 57Nomad asked me to name the Amendments to which I was referring, and I had already done so in a post subsequent to the one to which he/she was replying, but among the several questions/demands in 57Nomad's post was this:

"please specify which part of the Patriot Act overturns which amendment"

That was in fact a request/demand for me to produce several provisions.

As for what I have read, I can guarantee that it includes both the USA PATRIOT Act (in full) and the text of the Constitution, including all the Amendments thereto (not just the first 10, which are the Bill of Rights); as well, my readings have included the American Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation, and a host of other relevant documents and literature.

60 years ago Fascism was defeated while it attempted to storm our front doors.
Untold agony and death ensued to make sure it didn't succeed.

Now the evil is creeping through our back doors and nobody will see the insidious danger until it is right in the middle of our living rooms!
- Then what good all those poppies and lamentations?

#227, 57Nomad - 'Me and Bobby McGee' was written by Kris Kristofferson, sung by Roger Miller, and ruined by Janis Joplin. You are dead right in putting in the apostrophes.

162...Lia you're having us on....you've got a husband !...pull the other one

227. 57Nomad

I'm not wrong, that was the Grateful Dead version:
http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songf...

The words you supplied are Kristofferson's not Joplin's which are:

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose,
Nothing don't mean nothing honey if it ain't free, now now.
http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/Me-Bobby-McGee-lyr...

Three different meanings in three versions; I prefer the one I wrote.

Did anyone notice a rather absurd assumption?

Re #190 AM2 Glasgow:

"Oh, so the BBC is now part of the great global Zionist plot, is it? LOL"

- YOUR words, not mine, I would like to point out, my friend!
... A wee bit of hysteria seems to be walking the streets of Glasgow these days!

#233 Cronan

Cronan said:

"No, I'm not going to serve up the several provisions of the 1200-page-long Act which subvert not only the Bill of Rights, but also other aspects of the US Constitution, for you here."

You're damn right you're not. It's because you can't. Nobody is demanding anything from you except that you substantiate what you say. You, Cronan, are the one that says that the Patriot Act subverts the Bill of Rights. Since you said it, it is up to you to prove it. Just one single example will suffice. If you can't do it then zip it.

#240 Bill

First of all thank you because I had forgotten all about the Dead's cut. Your lyrics site let you down.

One of the marvelous things about the Dead was their crystal clear enunciation, one of their hallmarks. The lyrics that the dead sing are the original Kristoffersen lyrics which are the ones I posted. The lyrics site you accessed are wrong. You've got to be careful with lyric sites because they often have them wrong, sometimes comically.

The other day, in a attempt to show Wally that we do agree on somethings, I posted the lyrics to Pride of Man by Quicksilver. After I posted it I noticed that there was an error. The lyric site had:

Those who place their faith in fire,
Their faith in fire shall be repaid.

That's wrong. It's supposed to be:

Those who place their faith in fire.
In fire their faith shall be repaid.

It's a small error but it changes the flavor of the lyric considerably.

Anyway, it didn't do any good because Wally is in one of his grumpy moods and he didn't respond with anything friendly, just some borderline sarcasm.

Thanks again for the heads-up on the Dead version.

From, "a touch of gray" Nomad

#238 Pictus

This is incredible. Yep, Roger Miller made a version, as did Kris, and it was on his (Kris') first album, if I'm not mistaken. I like all of them.

Oddly enough, my friend Bill 1, reminded me of one version I hadn't heard in ages, which is the Grateful Dead's gorgeous cut. Kinda pissed me off though, because now I gotta do something nice for Bill.

The Dead's version is about 5 minutes long, artless, haunting, close to perfect.

#229 Zened

That was one of the best, most lucid, least dogmatic, descriptions of the current situation I've ever read. You are absolutely right. The problem with the Islamist aggression is that it uses our strengths against us. Pretty ingenious too.

Their biggest mistake is in thinking that they can scare us into submission and/or destroy us by a cataclysmic attack. The sad thing is that they believe that they can do this because it is pre-ordained by God to succeed. I think we could well be stuck again and much, much harder than before. They believe that if they do that we will be incapacitated or frightened into submission.

They have reason to believe this because this tactic has worked for them in the past. Their mistake is one of provincialism. They have limited history of dealing with the US and believe that we in the New World will react the way that they have gotten used to people in the Old World reacting. They don't understand that if we have to kill all the people around them in order to kill them, that we will do it. I fear it may come to that.

Re 242:

My name is Croman, not Cronan.

One example will suffice? Alright, have a keek at Section 215 of H.R.3162.ENR (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001, better known by its acronym "USA PATRIOT Act"), which subverts the 4th Amendment by disregarding the requirement found in the said Amendment that a warrant requires probable cause.

#242 Whatever your name is

"Section 215:

Sec. 215. Access to records and other items under the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act."

(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a
designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant
Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring
the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers,
documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against
international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided
that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted
solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to
the Constitution.
``(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--
``(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney
General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
``(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon
the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the
Constitution of the United States.

``(b) Each application under this section--
``(1) shall be made to--
``(A) a judge of the court established by section
103(a); or
``(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter
43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly
designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to
have the power to hear applications and grant orders for
the production of tangible things under this section on
behalf of a judge of that court; and ``(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought
for an authorized investigation conduc

Another intriguing OMISSION from the silly comment from #190 AM2 from Glasgow:

I mentioned an UNBELIEVABLE (and sinister) fact that NEVER reached the mainstream news:

The most prestigious broadcasting body in the world, the BBC, streets ahead of every other, with decades of spotless expertise ...

HAS LOST EVERY ONE OF THE THREE MANDATORY COPIES OF THE ENTIRE FOOTAGE FROM 9/11

- This was the BBC'S response when asked about the "cock-up" and "confusion" when Jane Standley announced LIVE and categorically, in New York, that WTC Building 7 had collapsed free-fall, a full 23 minutes before it actually did! (Clearly visible behind her through the window as she was speaking!)

So, clairvoyance, crystal balls and premonitions apart, isn't this BIZARRE loss of footage of THREE separate copies of film, recording the most horrendous crimes in current history, worth headline news?

And WHY does the BBC constantly and adamantly refuse to name the SOURCE of this 'precipitated' news which Jane Standley was reading from a monitor? (NOT a whim and caprice from the top of her head!)
I ask the question again:
Just WHO are the terrorists?

MUST we have ANOTHER more 'convincing' even more horrendous false-flag outrage to deflect our suspicions?

247, your reading comprehension skills need improving.

Section 215 (a)(1) says "provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution." Section 215 (a)(2)(B) says "not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States."

Neither of these references to "a United States person" specify whether or not such a person is a citizen or not.

Section 215 (b) (2) does not say that the above cannot be done to "a United States person," but only specifies that "the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities." In other words, as long as the investigation's *primary* goal is "not concerning a United States person" (i.e., as long as the "big fish" in the investigation is not "a United States person," then such a person can be investigated under the provisions _in connection with_ the primary investigation) OR (notice that word "or," as it's very important to understanding what is being said by this provision) as long as the purpose of the investigation is "to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities," then it's fine and dandy for these provisions to be applied to "a United States person," provided that any such investigation "is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution."

#249 C

Here is the tip-off

It's in the title

"Sec. 215. Access to records and other items under the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act."

This section specifically applies to intelligence on foreigners, that's why it's called the " Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act." You see, a person cannot be an American and a foreigner." It violates the law of non-contradiction.

Is that Saddam with his mousser shaved off in the pic above?

250, since when have politicians been concerned with whether or not they contradict themselves? Whether the section applies to FISA or not, read what it actually says. It refers to "a United States person" no less than three times, and does not negate the possibility of "a United States person" being investigated under the terms of the section; in fact, it is plain that such a person *can* be investigated, but that there are certain conditions involved, none of which take into account the provision in Amendment 4 requiring "probable cause" in order for a warrant to be issued. Indeed, the entire point of the whole of the USA PATRIOT Act was to subvert not only this requirement, but several other provisions in the several Amendments of the Bill of Rights, ostensibly to "provide appropriate tools" which were already in existence. The tools provided by the USA PATRIOT Act were authorisation to side-step the Bill of Rights. Open your eyes and stop trying to defend the indefensible.

#252--Croman---suggestion?..give it up already!!
57Nomad is light-years ahead of you on this subject!!....continue w/your want of proving your right, at your peril.....remember i warned you!!

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength."

"Big Brother is watching you."

Department of Homeland Security = Miniluv.

Truth is stranger than fiction.

Sandy, if 57 Nomad is "light-years ahead" of me "on this subject," then black is white and night is day. However, I must ask, "What peril am I in, and what are you warning me about"? Are you suggesting that the US Dept of Homeland Security might break down my door and cart me off? My, how positively fascist of you! Well, if they do come along here, rest assured, they won't be able to keep it secret as they prefer; I'm not some "liberal" who won't stand up for my rights, as I think I have made plain in my complaints above (but then again, I doubt you were actually paying attention, since I posted something which suggested that your half-wit pRESIDENT is in fact no more and no less than "Il Duce." Perhaps it would be of some benefit to you, if you were to study the salient features of fascism (and along with that study, let me recommend a couple of college-level courses in Logic) and in commenting on other articles here.

#255--Croman---i'm so sorry!! ...i had no idea my post@253 would frighten you!!....please calm down or chill out, HomeLand Security certainly can't be bothered w/the likes of you!!...my my...

256, Sandy

*snort*

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.