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believe it or not there are a significant number of orthodox jews in new york city who actually are against zionism & Israel. I don't think such people openly exist in Israel. and in US only in NYC.
Now the Israelis are fighting with each other.How worse can it get there?
A fanatic is a fanatic is a fanatic, regardless of which religion or mythology they espouse.
Your article paints a bad picture of Hareidim. There is only a small minority of Hareidim who throw stones, known as Neturei Karta. And even all of them don't do it. News should be accurate and stop giving all supposedly "ultra-religious" Jews a bad name. (So called "ultra-religious" Jews merely obey the 613 laws of the Torah without looking for loopholes, and are in no way fanatic.
Do the 613 laws include "Thou shalt not get on the same bus or plane as a woman"? Don't think so. The contempt these Stone Age maniacs show towards women is utterly contemptible. Someone should maybe remind them that we're living in the 21st century AD, not BC, otherwise why not move into one of those caves in Afghanistan where they will at least have like-minded neighbours?
"They became completely crazy because they believe God is on their side,"
This is fair comment on Zionists. These people have nuclear weapons.
Hold it people. Readers are quick to condemn Haredi (Ultra Orthodox) Jews just becasue they dress differently, live differently or think diffrenetly. In the US we have sects of Christians who dress and think like the Haredi Jews of Jerusalem. It is not a crime to be different and we don't condemn them for that. Live and let live says the bible. Of course, it would be intolerable for the Ultra Orthodox to force their views on the rest of the Israelis, the majority of whom are secular Jews. But please be aware that most of the Ultra Orthodox Jews just want to live their lives peacefully, study their Torah (Bible) and live according to the commandments of the Bible.
Jon B #7,You say "It is not a crime to be different and we don't condemn them for that", so it looks like you didn't read or understand the article, which is about people throwing stones at buses, endangering other people's lives and threatening them. Those are crimes and every democratic country should condemn anyone who commits them.
1) Yes, Wally, such people exist openly in Israel, in other parts of the US besides NYC, and elsewhere. But they are a small minority.
2) Yes, Paul, Israelis are fighting with each other. Big deal. Aren't there any clashes of culture, religion, etc. where you live? The disputes described in this article are similar to conflicts everywhere -- just the details are different.
3) Chossid, I think you underestimate the problem; it isn't just limited to Neturei Karta. And no, "ultra-religious" Jews are not merely obeying the Torah without loopholes. Righteous, holy men who keep the entire Torah have had no problem sitting on mixed buses and airplanes, while some who insist on gender segregation have found a loophole that they believe permits them to embarrass others and use violence to force their standards on an unwilling public.
4) Freemind, your message shows your cultural bias. 21st century AD? "Anno Domini"? Think about it. By our account, it isn't the 21st century, but the 58th.
5) Bill, pretty much everyone believes they have God (or their gods) on their side. Or if secular, that their view of the universe is likewise the most correct and accurate. Nothing unique about that. Also, you may have missed the nuance that it is specifically anti-Zionist Jews who are the God-on-our-side fanatics of this story. And by the way, not only do "these people" (that is, Israel) reportedly have nuclear weapons, but so do "you people". The logical connection between the hooligans described in this article and nuclear weapons is about as relevant as the connection between football hooligans and the nuclear arsenal of the British Armed Forces.
6) Guga and Jon B., I agree. What the article describes is a real problem, but one that is mainly for us Israelis to work out amongst ourselves. Good advice from the outside is welcome. Using the story to further some anti-Israel agenda or to look down on us -- look at th
8 Freemind
"endangering other people's lives and threatening them. Those are crimes and every democratic country should condemn anyone who commits them"
SMG9 Some good comments there.
Freemind, is your mind so free ? Can you live without your prejudice?
Spend today considering others better than yourself, even if you don't agree with them. make the world a better place.
Jews throwing stones? That's a shooting offence in Gaza.
SMG
I agree that most people believe that God or their values are on their side, but the extremists impose their views on others.
I was not aware that European Jews were anti-Zionist; I thought they were the Zionists.
You know, the people who invaded Palestine because their friends with the same religion had a presence there. Then they formed a massive state called Israel and subjected or drove out the Palestinian inhabitants, using the Jewish religion as justification.
Extremists or what? And they have nuclear weapons (not signatories to world nuclear conventions) and came very close to using them against Iraq, and would use them if Israel was in danger of being invaded by people doing the same as they did.
Most people do not understand the different sects in Judaism, or Islam, or Christianity or any other organised religion.
What they do understand is that the extremists and fanatics are making our lives very difficult; they understand that these conflicts need diplomatic resolution; they understand that the excessive and increasing use of arms in these conflicts is unjustified; they understand if things go the way they are going we will all be blown to kingdom come.
throwing stones and blowing people up ? Yeah thats the same thing I guess In the morally equivalent eyes of anti Isreal journos.
Let's see now….
These Jews are ultra-orthodox, which means they take seriously what others only half believe. At least their views are well defined, if silly; the criteria that half-believers use for picking and choosing are obscure.
They stone bus drivers. I wonder why. Are the drivers responsible for how buses are run? I shouldn't think so; it seems more like their employers' responsibility. Still, what's a little injustice here and there in the great cause of separating the sexes?
I imagine they would argue for religious freedom, the right to pursue their faith; but somehow they think it right that their freedom should be at the expense of others'. Ha! Do I spy a contradiction?
In justification they say God is on their side. He does get about, the one-and-only God, doesn't He? He seems to be on everyone's side. Is He just trying to stir up trouble, perchance?
Men and women are not to come into physical contact or even see one another, says the article – so there's hope this cult will die out.
The fact is that religion is nonsense. Question it almost anywhere and it falls apart. I've tried it myself: I've floated basic questions in religious fora and had the bizarrest, most illogical responses. If only one person suffered from it, from delusions so far removed from reality, we'd be sympathetic and offer him treatment.
Now there's a way forward!
Why is it that the ones who profess to be holier than thou are always the most violent and disruptive people on the planet?
Useless good for nothing scum!
Jennifer, face reality. most people want to get on with their lives, work, holiday, family, night out, house, car
over there they're all ****ing barmy - religion, God, all nonesense
we can do without them
Oh Jennifer, cmon! We have already concluded that you are not in a position to comment on most topics within these boards.
Number 17 is correct in his assessment! The world could get by without them and it would certainly be a more peaceful place!
I find the posters talking about the "secular jew" very funny. If you think religion is useless and fanatics are bad, why do you argue about Israel's "existence" or "right to exist" using religious references? (just partially of course, half-truths are always better)
That's called HYPOCRISY. The simple idea of "existance of Israel" is a clear opposite of secular conduct or mindset.
Beards, segregation and God on their side. Is this fanatical Jews or Muslims?
thank u #20!
if it were a cancerous tumor it would have been cut out by now
#9 SMG and #14 make some good points. but #14, the fact is not that religion is nonsense, but that you believe religion to be nonsense. we see a lot of pathology in religion, muslim terrorists, ultra-orthodox jewish stone-throwers, christian abortion clinic bombers, and the like. but religion in aggregate is a force for good, and no democracy can survive without the majority of their population espousing it.now i will readily admit that i am biased in favor of religion, as i believe in god. but atheism is similarly productive of bias. "religion" is not nonsense. one shouldn't 'throw the baby out with the bathwater.'
SMG #9: Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
#9..SMG You will find that no matter what the article is about, the Israel haters, American haters, Jew haters will find a way to debase themselves and bring all those debaters out to reduce everything to anti-Zionism.They overlook the fact that Israel is shelled every day, cease fires are broken every day. Hamas can't be at fault, the Pals are the only ones suffering etc. They do not hesitate to repeat their garbage on every string..If someone disagrees they are Zionists, and they were put here to do this and are getting paid for it!!Sometimes the things written here are so insane you have to laugh!!Unfortunately, it isn't funny, that people actually believe this tripe.Some of them should join Ahamdinejad's forum this week to see if the Holocaust REALLY DID HAPPEN.. It doesn't matter what you say (by the way what you wrote was extremely informative) they will find a way to ignore it, and change it for the own agenda.
This is just a note to let you know what you will be dealing with.
Sorry SMG, #9,I didn't realize you were so pedantic. I of course meant that we are now living in the 58th century and not the 18th. My argument remains unchanged.
Have we learnt nothing in the interim 4 millenia? Have science, education and enlightenment not taught us that some of those old pastoral prophets just might have got it a wee bit wrong 4,000 years ago, or am I to be stoned for blasphemy?
deb, wrong. And I'll give a very nice example: Northern Europe - Finland, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands - all excelent democracies with large middle classes, good social programs, diverse and open cultures, very low corruption and crime rate, but not too religious, especially Netherlands.
Secondly I'm surprised you failed the recognize the problem religion has been to women along the course of history. The opression of women has went hand in hand with all popular religions, and I'm not talking about abortion, women will do that wether it's legal or not, I'm talking about civil and social rights, work rights, family problems etc.
Get America to stop funding Israel to the tune of $4 billion a year and when the crunch comes they'll all learn how to get along.
Much debate about religious Yobs the extremists forcing their warped views on others and this is true of all religion at some point.May I just draw your attention to the Amish, extreme view of their religion yes but they do not force their view on others are totally non violent and like us secular people just want to be left alone to be what they are and live their life as they choose, an example here from people who can forgive a madman who kills their children.
30 Arthur
Thanks for that.
The overwhelming majority of religious people (and I include atheists, nihilists and agnostics) just get along with their lives and don't force their ideas on others, or use them as an excuse for invasion or murder or other vile acts.
You only need the occasional fanatic to come along, and they can cause untold misery.
As someone who was very religious at one time and doesn't have any religious beliefs now,although I still have a lot of friends and of course family members, who vary in the intensity of their personal religious beliefs,I think Richard Dawkins has a good slant on religious belief in general. It is a good case he makes for religious belief being damaging and in the case of inculcating children with religion akin to child abuse.
Although his book is a bit flawed in other respects.It doesn't do to get too smug about it.I also found this article here to be informative.As it concludes,"The first phase in the struggle to end the political and economic exploitation of our class is to learn to question the thoughts we inherit from well-intentioned parents and teachers; to challenge the strictures of the priests, parsons, rabbis and mullahs and to question why in a world of potential abundance, where a parasite class of non-productive money shufflers and profit-takers are rich beyond measure, and the working class that produces all real wealth endure mere want or dire poverty."http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/dec06/page10.htmlof course one should make up one's own mind about it all.
I'm surprised that no one has chimed in with the 'free market' position: If these ultra-orthodox rock chunkers don't like the mixed-sex busing, they should be welcome to walk or start their own damned bus line...instead, the strategy is to chunk rocks till you get your entitlement....
....on the other hand...I think of how many times I would like to chunk a few rocks at those yellow mobile speed bumps--the all-American school bus that goes lumbering along at rush hour creating congestion and carrying away the young like some monstrous pied piper to the intellectual slaughterhouse that is the American public school.
#26. Lynne -"#9..SMG You will find that no matter what the article is about, the Israel haters, American haters, Jew haters will find a way to debase themselves and bring all those debaters out to reduce everything to anti-Zionism".
....and you will also find the Zionists (Jews and non-Jews) who will voice no criticism of Israel and will try to defame those who disagree with them.
26 Lynne
"You will find that no matter what the article is about, the Israel haters, American haters, Jew haters will find a way to debase themselves and bring all those debaters out to reduce everything to anti-Zionism."
An incredible statement, Lynne, you've surpassed your previous hyperbole!
Looking through the postings here, I see no evidence of Israel haters, American haters or Jew haters being present.
What are you referring to?
it's called propaganda...
Some of the orthodox jews really take the torah very seriously. the torah is first 5 books of old testament christian bible. and I like the torah-believing jews.
the other jewish scripture is the talmud. Is it true that the talmud was mostly written after jesus was here? Some scholars say it is true. I am not sure.
Wally
Yes.
http://judaism.about.com/od/torahtalmud/a/talmud_dev.htm
bill, england: “I was not aware that European Jews were anti-Zionist; I thought they were the Zionists.”
There is no correlation between being of European or non-European origin and supporting or opposing the right of the Jewish people to freedom and self-determination in their homeland. Naturally, most Jews, both in Israel and the diaspora, support our national rights. And maybe you didn’t realize it, but most Jews in Israel are not European. About 68% of Israeli Jews are native-born. And most, whether native or immigrant, are of Middle Eastern descent. About 36% are of European-American origin; the rest are from Israel, other parts of Asia, and Africa -- mainly from the Middle East.
bill, england: “You know, the people who invaded Palestine…”
No, I don’t know. You’re version of history is, um, interesting. But then, a lot of fiction is interesting.
bill, england: “they formed a massive state called Israel”.
That’s a good one, Bill. Here’s a our “massive” state, compared to yours: http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps/britain.htm And note, the map of Israel here includes the West Bank, which was never annexed to Israel, where Israeli civil law does not extend, and much of which is under autonomous Palestinian rule; and the Gaza Strip, from which we have completely withdrawn. The map of Great Britain does not include significant parts of the UK, such as Northern Ireland, nor Britain’s far-flung overseas territories, such as Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, the Falklands, Anguilla, Gibraltar, etc. Nor does it reflect the large territories in Iraq and Afghanistan under British military occupation. In other words, your state is even more massive, and ours even tinier, than indicated in the picture. Even putting aside our micro-empire of small settlements and occupied territories and your global mega-empire, your state is still almost 12 times the size of ours! Yeah, Isra
The Word, ultra-Orthodox does not mean “they take seriously what others only half believe”. But maybe they think that’s what it means. I agree with much of the rest of your post, but it sounds like you’re over-generalizing. As is often true in situations like this, the really violent troublemakers are a small minority among this small minority. As “bill, england” rightly said, “The overwhelming majority… just get along with their lives and don't force their ideas on others…” but “you only need the occasional fanatic to come along, and they can cause untold misery.”
Most ultra-Orthodox Jews are not throwing stones or engaging in other violence. But likewise as is often true, behind the violent hard core are the sympathizers, the excuse-makers, those who provide ideological support, those who are silent about the problem, etc.
By the way, despite their preference for gender separation in public, “this cult” will not die out anytime soon. Ultra-Orthodox Jews tend to have the largest families in Israel, averaging about eight children each.
Is religion nonsense? I don’t think that’s really the right question. Art, music, poetry, politics, ethics, etc. are “nonsense”, too. No person limits his interests and activities to those that seem purely scientific, rational, logical, testable, falsifiable, etc.
common sense voice says “we can do without them” and later compares “them” to a cancerous tumor. Media 1 agrees. Groucho apparently thinks beards are funny or some sort of problem. Are these examples of the wonderfully tolerant attitude that is supposed to be a hallmark of secular society?
Dragomir, I didn’t understand your point.
Lynne, thank you for the kind message. Believe me, I know who and what I’m deal with :)
Freemind, yes, I’m that pedantic. Now you know :) If you meant to point out that the moral evolution of the world over the past few thousand years is decidedly a mixed bag, I agree. And by the way, the “old pastora
wee matt, the ultra-Orthodox community is hardly “rich beyond measure”. In fact, it is quite poor.
Prinzowhales, the “free market position”, not hurling rocks, is the ultra-Orthodox community’s biggest “weapon”. See for example http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&ci... Although they tend to be poor, they are highly disciplined, and as a result, their power as consumers is significant.
James Donald, this story, though it happens to take place in Israel, isn’t directly about Zionism. If you insist on seeing it only through the prism of Zionism vs. anti-Zionism, the good-guys/victims/moderates in this story are the Zionists, while the bad-guys/attackers/extremists are the anti-Zionists.
And as far as I can see, the apparent Zionists writing here have had no problem criticizing Israel. The only defamation has come from the other side.
Wally, "Torah" can mean many things. While in the narrowest sense it is the first five books of the Jewish and Christian Bibles, in a wider sense it also includes the Talmud. Here's a good introductory explanation of what can be a confusing topic: http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm
All Orthodox Jews are "Torah-believing" and all Orthodox Jews also believe that the "Written Torah" requires an ongoing process and tradition of interpretation -- the "Oral Torah".
At a certain point in history (around 200 CE), much of the oral Torah was succinctly compiled in a series of books, collectively called the Mishnah. A few centuries later, commentary and discussions about the Mishnah were recorded in the Gemara. Mishna and Gemara together are called the Talmud, and reflect the "state of the art" of Torah interpretation for their time.
T
SMG...only 4 words...THANK G-D FOR YOU
39. SMG
"About 68% of Israeli Jews are native-born"
I presume you mean since the formation of the state of Israel.
There were only a few thousand native Jews in Palestine at the beginning of the Zionist movement in the early 19th century.
The Zionists who invaded Palestine formed a massive state called Israel. Millions against thousands - a massive increase swamping the indigenous population.
Do you have the population percentage of the true Sabras who are descended from the indigenous Jews who were in Palestine before the aliyahs?
#39, 40, 41 SMG - for info. SMG's hame toon:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bet_Shemesh.
42. Lynne, USA - playing the sychophant now?
"A Woman"
This is written in the Hebrew Talmud, the bookwhere all of the sayings and preaching of Rabbis are conserved over time.
It says: "Be very careful if you make a womancry, because God counts her tears. The womancame out of a man's rib. Not from his feet to be walked on. Not from his head to be superior, butfrom the side to be equal. Under the arm to beprotected, and next to the heart to be loved."
#44...No..Not flattery...just happy he can put you in your place..NICELY.
#43
From Romania at least 250.000 jews were sold by Dej and later Ceausescu (dictators). It was very good business since Israel paid well ( about $65 mil, which at that time was A LOT) for them and aranged travel means. Israel even granted free loans and technological equipments for them. Romania was the only communist country in Eastern Europe still keeping diplomatic relations with Israel, because of this.
#46. Lynne -
"No..Not flattery...just happy he can put you in your place..NICELY" - he certainly gets my vote for the dullest post I read in the Scotsman.
James...Not the dullest...the truest...you won't face facts..that's that closed mind of yours again!!!No matter who explains it to you...you'll never change your opinion.You don't have to either. I'm sure your opinion means nothing to a lot of people.
Bill, England: “I presume you mean since the formation of the state of Israel.”
I don’t. That is the current percentage.
Correct, Bill, obviously, few Jews lived in Palestine when modern Zionism arose. No one debates that. The whole point of Zionism at the time was to gather the largely homeless, stateless Jews who lived for almost 2000 years as a sort of permanent refugee people, suffering repeated and often severe persecution and countless expulsions as a result of their anomalous situation, and to reconstitute that nation in its historic homeland.
There was no “invasion” but of course there was massive immigration. And by the way, at around the same time, there was significant Arab immigration to Palestine, as well.
As for this supposedly resulting in the formation of a “massive” state, see my #39 above.
And no, the local Arab population was not “swamped” and the conflict was never “millions against thousands”. In modern times, the Arab population of Palestine has always been significant, and remains so today. In fact, despite Jewish immigration and the flights of Arab refugees, the current population of Palestine (that is, Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza) is now roughly 50% Jewish, 50% Arab.
Bill, England: “Do you have the population percentage of the true Sabras who are descended from the indigenous Jews who were in Palestine before the aliyahs?”
No. But the answer really depends on where one chooses to draw the line in history. Few Jews and many Palestinian Arabs can claim descent from the people who populated this land in, say, 1850. But how many Jews descend from those who were here in, say, the year 50? Almost all of them.
James Donald, given that we’re discussing such potentially explosive topics as religion, extremism, and the Middle East conflict, I consider your “dullest post” remark to be a great compliment. This dialog has been overheated by more than enough bias, prejudice, provocation, and wild e
#49. Lynne - as much as your twisted opinion means to me. I am also sure that a great number of people think you are nothing but a Zionist mouthpiece but what does that prove?
"Facts" from a colonist in a 100% Jewish town on occupied territory might be considered a little tainted by many people.
James..if believing in the State of Israel makes me a Zionist...so be it. But your opinion of me doesn't mean bupkus..because I believe you are a card carrying member of Hamas.
I would sooner listen to SMG's facts than your twisted ones.
#50. SMG - If your "dull" posts defuse dialog from the more hot-headed posters then they will have served a purpose.I am sure it will be of interest to some that you come from Beit Shemesh as this is a virtually Arab free town on occupied land near Jerusalem. Some might say that this would have a bearing on your opinions if you are a settler on annexed Palestinian land.No need for a link to Wikipedia’s article about Edinburgh (not actually my "hame toon" but rather where I work); most people here will have heard of it in contrst to Beit Shemesh. I have no Israeli or Arab/Muslim relations or friends in fact no connection with the region at all, thus my views are formed by the situation as I see it rather than any preconceived prejudice against either side. I do believe that many of the pro-Israeli (and pro-Arab) posters on this and other media sites are, wittingly or unwittingly, engaged in a de facto propaganda war which is pretty far from the truth. Plenty of mud slinging too from both sides.
#52. Lynne - Nobody is forcing you to read my posts so you can bog off if you don't like it and believe whatever you like.
It seems you are a self-confessed Zionist but if you believe I are a card carrying member of Hamas, you are either one sandwich short of a picnic or on the wind up. I have no more interest in being a member of Hamas or and of these other barking Arab groups than I have in joining the JDL.
Hamas members are, in any case, a bit thin on the ground in my village as I am sure Hamas membership records will indicate (maybe Mossad will provide you with a free copy). So no more mud slinging just to amuse yourself.
James, Wikipedia doesn't say that Beit Shemesh is 100% Jewish; it says "100% Jewish and other non-Arab". There are certainly non-Jewish residents in Beit Shemesh, including some of my neighbors. And there is no legal hurdle that would prevent Arab Israelis from living here, as well, if they so desired.
The whole Jewish vs. Arab dichotomy is, of course, an over-simplification encouraged by the ongoing Arab-Israeli conflict, while a more nuanced understanding recognizes that some Jews are Arabs, and vice versa. And many residents of Beit Shemesh are Arab or of Arab descent by this wider definition. They are about as "Arab" as the "European" Jews we've been discussing are "European".
James, what makes you think that I am a "colonist" and that Beit Shemesh is on "occupied territory"? Either you are ignorant of history or geography or of the legal situation or perhaps you just don't know what "colony" and "occupied territory" actually mean. One could make a better argument for Edinburgh being occupied territory.
#55. SMG, Beit Shemesh - I thought this territory annexed in 1967, if not then I stand corrected. I had never heard of your town before today so at least I learned something today such as:
"Bet Shemesh has a considerable Orthodox Jewish population, including a sizable Chareidi (ultra-Orthodox) segment, that continues to expand and grow as religious families look beyond the more central areas of Jerusalem for available housingsuited to large families" - something of a boom town but I don't think most Arab-Israelis would feel all that comfortable there.
I have heard that some of the "Jews" coming to Israel now are about as German as the Volga Germans etc.... "returning" to the Fatherland in droves. I hope the former integrate better than the latter.
50 SMG
"Correct, Bill, obviously, few Jews lived in Palestine when modern Zionism arose. No one debates that. The whole point of Zionism at the time was to gather the largely homeless, stateless Jews who lived for almost 2000 years as a sort of permanent refugee people, suffering repeated and often severe persecution and countless expulsions as a result of their anomalous situation, and to reconstitute that nation in its historic homeland.There was no “invasion” but of course there was massive immigration."
Thank you. The difficulty was that other people lived there, and they did not want the immigration into their country.
"But how many Jews descend from those who were here in, say, the year 50? Almost all of them."
I don't think that is the case. Many of the Jews in Israel are from Europe and have no ethnic origin in the ancient Israel.
James, Beit Shemesh was not annexed in 1967, but has been sovereign Israeli territory since 1948. (By the way, the only territory annexed in 1967 was the eastern portion of Jerusalem, previously occupied by Jordan.)
The modern town of Beit Shemesh was founded here in 1950, but its roots are ancient. As far as I know, the earliest evidence of significant settlement here is Canaanite, going back to the Middle Bronze Age (1750-1550 BCE) (see http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/archaeology/projects/beth... ). The city’s name, which means “House of the Sun”, indicates that it was a Canaanite center of sun worship. Later, it became an Israelite city, and it is mentioned many times in the Bible, in the books of Joshua, 1 Samuel, 2 Kings, 2 Chronicles. (There are a few other Biblical references to Beit Shemesh, but they apparently refer to other places.)
There have been a number of subsequent periods of settlement here, the most recent of which was the Arab village of Ain Shems or Ain Shams, which was abandoned in the late 1800s.
Here is a really fascinating book from 1911 that describes the archaeological dig at Ain Shems/Beth-Shemesh: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_page.pl?DPI=1...
Aside from the text, the book includes some great contemporary photographs of Ain Shems/Beth-Shemesh and the surrounding area.
Yes, we are today something of a boom town, and you are right that, unfortunately, most Arab-Israelis would not feel all that comfortable there, just as the residents of Beit Shemesh would not feel all that comfortable living in an Arab city.
James, I didn’t understand your remark about Jews and Volga Germans. Maybe you meant that you heard some Jewish immigrants are as Jewish as the Volga G
Bill, England: “Many of the Jews in Israel are from Europe and have no ethnic origin in the ancient Israel.”
Not true.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi#Origins_of_Ashkenazim , "there is a consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East."
Overwhelming genetic evidence shows that Ashkenazi (from Central and Eastern Europe) and Sefardi (from the Iberian peninsula, and more generally, from the Mediterranean region) Jews tend to be most similar to each other (more closely related than either is to surrounding populations of non-Jews), and that both groups are closely related to Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Kurds, and Druze. Interestingly, one study indicates that Sefardi Jews are more closely related to Europeans than Ashkenazi Jews, and concludes that "Ashkenazim are not closely related to their Central and Eastern European neighbors or to any group outside the Middle East or Near East."
Those who wish to pursue this topic may be interested in the following:
http://www.cryptojews.com/Comparing_DNA.htm http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retriev... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaronhttp://www.rasch.org/rmt/rmt161g.htmhttp://www.med.nyu.edu/genetics/research/jewish_origins.htmlReport Unsuitable
#58. SMG - "Maybe you meant that you heard some Jewish immigrants are as Jewish as the Volga Germans are German?" - indeed this is what I meant (but the typing fingers can't keep up with the brain). Khazars etc...may be Jewish by religious conversion but have in terms of ethnic origin little to do with Biblical Jews (although it would appear they have the right to settle in Israel). Ethnic Germans have the right to "return" to Germany but some of those returning are about as German as I am. Transylvanian Saxons and other Germans returning have retained a German(ic) culture and language pretty well but some so-called ethnic Germans "returning" from Russia (loosely termed Volgadeutsch) have little to mark them out as Germans not even a grasp of the language. Many of them speaking only Russian (with a few words of German) live in virtual ghettos in the former DDR. Germany is in relatively poor economic shape and does not really need these people to add to the unemployment figures but it is obliged to take them (and Jews also - Germany has a growing Jewish population). It will take time and effort to integrate these ethnic Germans but they might yet be of benefit to the country where the population is ageing fast.I heard a story that some of the population from my ancestoral homeland of Caithness were Germanic tribesmen from the Catti people who arrived here over 1000 years ago. Maybe I will try my luck at the German Embassy if things get bad here and claim I want to go "home"
59. SMG - "The genetic and historic research is of course intriguing, but the real question is why any of this should matter to the Israeli-Palestinian and wider Arab-Israeli conflicts. It shouldn’t matter whether genetic evidence points to Jewish origins in Antarctica or Palestinian origins in Scotland. We’re both here now, and there really are only two choices: long-term, peaceful coexistence or one side pushing out the other".
What I forgot to add was that I agree that "long-term, peaceful coexistence" is the ideal but neither side seems to want to make any significant concessions. The USA should use its influence to bring about a solution (or at least make steps in the right direction) but instead backs one side against the other. Peace seems further away now than ever.
61. James Donald. I agree with SMG. It makes a great difference as to where the Ashkenazi Jews originally came from because that fact is part of the misinformation campaign being used by the anti-Israel brigade. The Ashekenazi Jews can be traced back to Jews who migrated to Italy from Israel in the first and second centuries. Eventually they moved to Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries. DNA is a wonderful thing.
In the past the Israelis have made significant concessions, particularly the deal that Yasser Arafat turned down. They will never get any better deal than that - the deal was an incredibly generous one by Israel in the hope that the two sides could live side by side in peace.
The Palestinian people need to get rid of the leaders they have ( Hamas, Fatah and all the other thug militias) who are only interested in holding on to their own power and not in the interests of the Palestinian people. These groups don't want peace because they will lose what they have. An ongoing conflict with Israel keeps them on their little thrones. So to cover their inept, thieving, murderous rule they have to keep inciting the Palestinians against Israel and they do that at every opportunity they can. The sooner the Palestinian people get rid of these thugs the sooner they will find peace and Israel will be happy to have peace with them.
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59 SMG
It is true for me to say “Many of the Jews in Israel are from Europe and have no ethnic origin in the ancient Israel.”
It is also true for you to say "there is a consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East."
They are different statements. Their commonality is that some European Jews have Middle Eastern ethnic content. I am not disputing that.
What I am saying is that The Zionist movement had no right to invade Palestine "to gather the largely homeless, stateless Jews who lived for almost 2000 years as a sort of permanent refugee people, suffering repeated and often severe persecution and countless expulsions as a result of their anomalous situation, and to reconstitute that nation in its historic homeland."
They formed a massive state called Israel and subjected or drove out the Palestinian inhabitants, using the Jewish religion as justification.
"The genetic and historic research is of course intriguing, but the real question is why any of this should matter to the Israeli-Palestinian and wider Arab-Israeli conflicts. It shouldn’t matter whether genetic evidence points to Jewish origins in Antarctica or Palestinian origins in Scotland. We’re both here now, and there really are only two choices: long-term, peaceful coexistence or one side pushing out the other."
Correct, you are both there now. The invasion over almost two centuries has been successful and is still continuing; the Jewish population of the area has increased by about 7 million.
This is the root cause of the problem. The problem has been compounded by non-compliance with UN resolutions and atrocities towards neighbours.
Your first option of long-term, peaceful coexistence is of course the most appealing and negotiations supported by the UN or other benefactors must be made to work. Otherwise one side pushing out the other will be
James Donald:
1. You are using the word “ethnic” to mean something like biological or genetic, but the term is actually broader than that. My dictionary gives the following definition: “Pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.” Thus, a common religion can define or create ethnicity.
This is certainly true of Judaism, which contains within it multiple overlapping elements of primordial identity that in modern times are commonly thought of as separate and distinct, such as nationality, religion, culture, language, etc. The mainstream Jewish self-understanding does not separate nationality from religion, and thus, by “religious” conversion, one also gains entry into the nation.
2. While in theory, a Khazar Jew would have the same right of return to Israel as any other Jew, in practice there are no Khazar Jews. That people disappeared from the history books about 1000 years ago.
Of course, there are descendents of the Khazars, and those who remain Jewish would have the same right of return as any other Jew. But the idea that Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from the Khazars has been widely discredited by historians. On this, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar#Alleged_Khazar_ancest...
continued...
James Donald (continued…)
3. IMO, US support for Israel is both justified and tremendously important, given the mutual benefits of our countries’ alliance, our shared democratic values, the history of anti-Semitism and Jewish homelessness, and the really unprecedented threats and dangers that Israel faces. In terms of benefit to American interests, US foreign aid in general and aid to Israel in particular is a bargain.
Nevertheless, I criticize the US for overindulging the settlement mania of the Israeli Right. (That I criticize the Israeli government for this mania should go without saying.) This folly has not been good for either the US or Israel, and obviously complicates efforts to reach a peaceful compromise with the Palestinians.
But we should also remember that the US government has been quite supportive of Palestinian aspirations, particularly in recent years. President Clinton’s commitment to the peace process was really “above and beyond the call of duty”, but after his patience, hard work, and political risks were repaid by Arafat’s refusal to negotiate at Camp David and then the launching of the second Intifada, the American government is understandably reticent about going so far out on a limb for the Palestinians again.
Ultimately, the Palestinians have to take responsibility for themselves and their future. If they want independence, peace, security, cooperation, and a warm, constructive relationship with Israel, it’s available to them. But if destroying Israel is seen as a more important goal than building Palestine, well… as they say, you can lead a horse to water…
StewartB, Right On!
bill, England, the genetic evidence does not bear out your statements about “many of the Jews in Israel” and no, the truth does not lie in some half-way position or common ground between your statements and mine.
“…The Zionist movement had no right to invade Palestine…” Putting aside this misuse of the word “invade”, who decides that it had no such right? On the contrary, what right did anyone have to keep Jews in exile and prevent them from living in their homeland?
As for the legal situation at the time, it is well known that Herzl and other early Zionist leaders petitioned the Ottoman Empire (that is, the legal government at the time) for permission to bring Jews back to their homeland, and little by little, land was legally purchased to establish new Jewish towns and villages, such as Rishon L’zion, Rosh Pina, Petach Tikva, etc.
When the Ottoman Empire broke up in WWI and Palestine fell to the British, Zionist leaders again petitioned support for their cause from the legal government at the time, resulting first in the Balfour Declaration and later, at the San Remo Conference, in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.
After WWII, when League of Nations authority now rested in the hands of the new United Nations, the right to establish a Jewish State in Palestine was again confirmed by the 1947 Partition Plan.
bill, England: “They formed a massive state called Israel” Aren’t you getting tired of sitting in “little Britain” -- 12 times the size of Israel, with a rich imperial past, significant overseas territories, and an occupying army in at least two countries – and calling Israel “a massive state”?
bill, England: “and subjected or drove out the Palestinian inhabitants”
Palestinian Israelis are not “subjects”, they are citizens.
bill, England: “using the Jewish religion as justification.”
Wrong, again. Modern Zionism was mainly a secular movement of national liberation.
bill, England: “the
bill, England: “This is the root cause of the problem.” Interesting. So, when all of our homeland was under foreign occupation, and we lived in exile, without power, largely without rights, subject to horrific persecution, and frequently expelled from one tenuous, temporary dwelling to another, there was no problem. Everything was just fine.
And then, tired of this nightmare existence, tired of being subject to the whims of our oppressors, and perhaps with some prescience about the genocidal threat that we’d soon be facing in Europe, some of us took matters into our own hands and did the unthinkable – we went home. And THAT is supposedly the root cause of the problem?
Too bad.
bill, England: “The problem has been compounded by non-compliance with UN resolutions and atrocities towards neighbours.” Indeed it has. Mostly by the non-compliance and atrocities committed by Arabs, but Israel is also guilty of some of this.
bill, England: “I wish you luck.”
Thanks :) The truth is, we all need it. I hate to sound apocalyptic, but one can make a fairly rational argument that the fate of Israel is likely to be the fate of the region, and maybe even the world.
You dispute that many of the Jews in Israel are from Europe and have no ethnic origin in the ancient Israel. Has there been any research to show that many European Jews originated in biblical Israel?
You say that nobody has the right to keep Jews in exile and prevent them from living in their 'homeland'. The fact that they had left their 'homeland' for one reason or another means that they do not live there and do not have an automatic right of return to a country that belongs to others.
My use of the adjective massive is clearly relative not absolute; increase in Jewish population in Palestine from the early 19th century to the present is thousands to millions - a massive increase.
Not all Palestinians are Israeli citizens, in fact very few of them are.
It is news to me that Zionism was mainly a secular movement.
My mistake, I don't know where I picked up the figure of 7 million from; in any event I was only using it to show the massive increase from a few thousand Jews in Palestine.
I am well aware of the suffering of the Jews through the centuries, as I am aware of the suffering of many other groups of people. But to decide on a place where they used to live once, repopulate it, and call it home was understandably not appreciated by the people who live there. As you say, too bad.
Yes, we do all need luck. I just hope you folks in the Middle East can settle your differences in a civilised manner without blowing the rest of us sky high.
Bill,
You might want to do a little historical research. A great many Jews were exiled by conquest and captivity. Not exactly a choice one would make to leave a homeland.
Why should the US sort it out? It has done enough damage already.
If it withdrew the vast sums of money and aid in kind it gives Israel every year (which by its own laws it should not, given Israel's unacknowledged nuclear stockpile, and which its own citizens could certainly benefit from), even to levels more in line with the aid it gives other countries, perhaps there would be a more level playing field.
But of course, the US really needs Israel for its ME foreign policy - I guess that makes the financial drain, the costly pr and propaganda, the 'looking the other way', the 'bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you' spying by the Israelis, and the global opprobrium all worthwhile...
Just saw this on ynet:
US to double emergency equipment stored in IsraelYitzhak Benhorin
WASHINGTON - The American Congress gave Israel financial and security encouragement when the Senate and the House of Representatives gave their approval to double the emergency equipment the United States stores in Israeli stockpiles. Within the next two years the Americans will fill the military emergency stockpiles in Israel with double the equipment they now hold. In addition, the US will allow Israel to use the remainder of the US's monetary guarantees given to them that have not been used yet, and add up to USD 4.5 billion, by 2011. The emergency stockpiles are meant to store American military equipment in the Middle East in case of an emergency. However, in case of an emergency, Israel is allowed to use the stockpiles. The value of the equipment currently stored in Israel amounts to USD 100 million and the American government approved doubling its value to USD 200 million in the coming year. In 2008 the military stock will be doubled and refilled once again in the value of USD 200 million. Pro-Israel decisionsThe Congress decided to give special aid to Israel in order to minimize war damages, without having to give Israel additional direct financial aid. The bill was approved by the Senate and House and it renewed authority to transfer equipment to be stored in Israel. A great portion of the American equipment stored in Israel last year was used for combat in the summer war in Lebanon. The US approved guarantees in the sum of USD 9 billion to Israeli to be used over a period of three years, and this period was then prolonged an additional year. Israel has only used half of this amount and has requested the United States again extend the time limit on using these guarantees. Following the second Lebanon war the US agreed to exten
bill, England: “Has there been any research to show that many European Jews originated in biblical Israel?”
bill, England: “The fact that they had left their 'homeland' for one reason or another means that they do not live there and do not have an automatic right of return to a country that belongs to others.”
1. Tell that to the millions of descendents of Palestinian refugees, who think they do have such an automatic right.
2. I actually agree with you. At least according to international law, there is no automatic right of return. The Jewish return was not accomplished by invoking some “automatic right”, but by winning recognition and support for their cause from the rulers of Palestine and the international community, and by tremendous effort to purchase and improve land, encourage immigration, build communities, revive the Hebrew language, and establish the institutions that were precursors to independence and that provided vital infrastructure for a full national life (representative government; education, health, and welfare institutions; taxation; paramilitary organizations; public and private enterprise; collective farms; etc.).
All this led to sovereign independence, after which the Israeli government was able to legislate a Law of Return, which gives Jews throughout the world a right to immigrate to Israel. Many countries have similar laws that provide immigration privileges to individuals with ethnic ties to these countries (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return ), and many countries don’t. It is really up to each government to determine if such a law is in its interests, appropriate for its particular circumstances, etc., and should not be confused with an internationally recognized human right.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights does include a right to return to one’s country (“Everyone has the right to leave any coun
bill, England: “My use of the adjective massive is clearly relative not absolute”
If you wish to say that Israel/Palestine’s population swelled from mass immigration, of course I agree. To you, the scale of the immigration seems to be a measure of the injustice that Israel’s establishment caused. But to me, it is a measure of the injustice that Israel’s establishment corrected. In any case, to call Israel “a massive country” is so confusing and meaningless as to be wrong. Hey, in 1948 there was a massive exodus of Palestinians from the land that became Israel to the West Bank and Gaza. And Palestinian terrorism originating in those territories increased massively after the signing of the Oslo accords. I guess that makes the West Bank and Gaza “massive”, too.
bill, England: “Not all Palestinians are Israeli citizens, in fact very few of them are.”
You claimed that we “subjected [sic. Didn’t you actually mean “subjugated”?] or drove out the Palestinian inhabitants”. Putting aside the “drove out” part for another discussion, all the Palestinians who stayed in Israel became Israeli citizens. Today, their descendents are about 27% of the Arabs in Israel/Palestine. The other 73% live in the West Bank and Gaza, and are under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority – neither the subjects of nor subjugated by Israel.
bill, England: “It is news to me that Zionism was mainly a secular movement.”
OK. Bill, may I suggest that, before making all sorts of pronouncements and judgments about distant situations, you get some basic education about them?
bill, England: “…to decide on a place where they used to live once, repopulate it, and call it home was understandably not appreciated by the people who live there.”
Believe me, I realize that, on the whole, Palestinian Arabs do not appreciate that the Jews came home. Early Zionist immigration of Jews was welcomed by some Arabs, but it was probably inevitable, and certainly predictable, that the two communities would clash as Jewish immigration increased; absentee landowners sold lands to Jews, thereby displacing Arab peasant farmers; nationalist ideology took root on both sides; and autocratic leaders both locally and in surrounding Arab countries used the anti-Zionist cause to rally popular support and cover their own failings.
One popular analogy for European Jewish immigration to Palestine is the man jumping from a burning building and falling on someone on the pavement below. You can’t blame the jumper for saving his own life, nor can you blame the man he falls on for “not appreciating” whatever injury he suffers as a result. (See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3585207.stm for a nice use of this analogy.)
This analogy is clever and useful for thinking about Jewish-Palestinian reconciliation, but fails to capture an important aspect of the situation: The “man in the building” didn’t just jump to a random spot but actually had good reason to regard the pavement as his rightful home. And even before the fire, he was always treated by the building’s owners as a rather unwelcome guest who was exiled from the pavement.
Maestra, thanks for the good news. The stockpiling of US equipment in Israel is an expression of the mutual interests and benefits of our friendly relationship, much like the relationship between the US and UK, NATO, etc.
In our region, the United States reportedly stockpiles equipment in several countries, including E
# 76 Did you to the conference this past week?If not you should have.. You would have fit right in.
The truth is:
They do have the automatic right. The Palestinians were violently and murderously shoved out of their land. They certainly do have the automatic right to claim their land back. smg, you think you are smart. Think again. Most of your posts are dripping with true blatant hypocrisy and racism.
The Palestinians were not given a fair shake to land, economy, and rights when it came to the camp David peace talks with Clinton and Barak. Land that was theirs in the first place. Land the Palestinians lived and cultivated for centuries.
Arafat had no choice but to reject any proposals made by clinton and Ehud. Most everything was in israel's favour.
But you fail to tell these simple truths. So you are not smart nor clever. Let's try conniving and wiley.
Did I hear smg claim that Israel was a democratic nation? Not true.
Did I hear smg claim that 4 billion dollars given to Israel by usa was exaggerated. Not true. Try this: Over 5 billion.
Look what the so-called "democratic" country of Israel does with the money given to them from the usa:
Certainly the Palestinian people have been illegally and most viciously punished for making their democratic choice to elect a Hamas government that Israel and the Western powers disapprove of.......
+ an economic blockade has been imposed, starving the Palestinian Authority of income to pay for services and remunerate its large workforce;
+ millions of dollars in tax monies owed to the Palestinians have been illegally withheld by Israel, exacerbating the humanitarian crisis;
+ a physical blockade of Gaza enforced by Israel has prevented the Palestinians from exporting their produce, mostly perishable crops, and from importing essentials like food and medicine;
+ Israeli military strikes have damaged Gaza's vital infrastructure, including the supply of electricity and water, as well as randomly killing its inhabitants;
+ and thousands of families are being torn apart as Israel uses the pretext of its row with Hamas to stop renewing the visas of Palestinian foreign passport holders.
smg "claims" that the zionists bought land in Palestine. The truth is only 7% was purchased.
The rest of this land was stolen through the murder, rape, and massacre of Palestinians.
And that dear Watson is how Israel "purchased" most of this land. Through blood and violence - and then thievery against men, women, children, and the elderly. The palestinian's story - as painful and truthful as it is- will never be published in newspaper or book in the usa or canada.
Just because you don't read about it and see it on TV doesn't make it false. I see the zionists are hard at work keeping the truth off the blogs.
Stephanie, add to the Israeli "support" funds the money gained from bank robberies in Gaza and West Bank and from raiding homes and stealing valuables from the native people. It may not so much, but it's much to those people who are living in a large open air prison camp.
Yes Dragomir,
Along with non-stop military assaults on the Palestinian people, Zionist Israel’s success in waging economic warfare on the indigenous people of Palestine may prove to be even more deadly as they seek to put the starving on a diet, as some Israeli officials callously joked, or as the New York Times reported, have devised a plan to starve Hamas out of power.
Israel not only refuses to relinquish the 100s of millions of dollars in tax revenues it generates from the Palestinians on their behalf, but has threatened to block aid money from countries, such as Sweden and the Arab Alliance, from reaching Palestinian banks. These dollars are vitally needed for Palestinian survival.
The Palestinians are getting robbed in so many ways.
