I'm sure if he types in Terror Storm into google video he would have second thoughts on that comment :)

Why stop there? How about them apologising for invading France,Spain,Italy,Morocco,Greece, Croatia,Serbia,Bulgaria, Egypt,Lebanon,Persia,India, Afghanistan,Sudan,Ethiopia, Portugal, Iraq,Indonesia,Burma ,China,etc.etc.?

How about stop stirring the sh1t for 10 minutes. Has his gaffer not caused enough grief lately.

He should tell the Catholic wife of PM Blair she's excommunicated.
As if she'd care, as long as her Hollyood (or crystal-ball) agent assured her that excommunication status would ensure higher fees from the USA's Democrat (sic[k]) Party's audiences.

What a plonker. First he tries to tell Catholics which way to vote at the next elections, now he seems to have lost the plot entirely.

Which Muslims, exactly, does he want to apologise? The ones who did the deeds? Cos they're dead. They are playing with their 72 virgins or whatever and they probably don't even have email.

Does he want the lady who answers the phones in my office to apologise? Cos I know she was doing something else at the time and she definitely didn't do it. Which other Muslims should apologise? Islam isn't a church, they don't have a pope or a moderator - they don't even have a press office.

the Cardinal is, as I said, a plonker and should go on a seventy year retreat to think about what he's done.

The only thing worse than a plain old idiot is a religious old idiot. Hey, could he be looking for a cushy government job if the SNP get elected or does he just like meddling?

You know, my Tunisian grocer's reaction to 9/11 was "The 1993 attempt on the WTC, that was Arabs but (9/11)... too well organised...couldn't have been Arabs." Moreover, writing in Parameters, the US Army War College's official quarterly, one author notes that several US military officers and intelligence folks told him they had "never seen an operation (9/11) go so smoothly".

On whose behalf are Muslims to apologize exactly?

Is he from the dark ages? I suppose he thought the Crusades were just great. Where does the Vatican get these idiots anyway? I suppose this guy thought Pope Benedict was right on; I'll be he even voted for him in the conclave.

Comments like this by Cardinal O' Brien show just how out of touch the Catholic church is with the real world

It's times like these I'm glad I'm an atheist.

I take it SoS are looking to get even more website hits than last weekend by running this story. :-) Just to help things along, how about he leads the way by setting an example for the Muslims to follow by apologising for the IRA's recent 30 year long terror campaign.

Walks away whistling.

Maybe he ought to urge Roman Catholics to say sorry for all their humanitarian crimes while he's at it.

At least the 9/11 bombers had an excuse to strike at the heart of the financial support for Israel who has murdered so many of their kin.

The Roman Catholics were simply trying to impose their ideas on others, in much the same way that Bush and Blair are doing now.

Bill, Pope John Paul II has already apologised for crimes committed by Catholics.

Cora, you probably know nothing about the Crusades but are just jumping on the bandwagon.

Comments like this, by guys like this, remind me why I abandoned the Catholic faith (and all other organised religion) as soon as I was of an age where I could think for myself.

Ah Bill, back again, the nutter on the bus.

#12--"the Roman Catholics were simply trying to impose their ideas on others in much the same way that Bush & Blair are doing now"--& YOUR NOT!!

Perhaps at the same time Mr. O'Brien should apologise for harbouring paedophiles?

As for his predictable Act Of Settlement drivel, the Monarch is the head of the Anglican Church. Imagine Catholics not being allowed to be head of the Anglican Church? Well there's a shocker eh?

Maybe he could ask the Vatican why Hindu's aren't allowed to be Pope?

Time for newspapers to stop giving this loony airtime.

The unelected leader of a minority faith in Scotland is given far too much credbility by our media. Sure I read somewhere "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Paul, Douglas,Sandy

Morning all.

Paul, I don't think his apology went all the way back to the time when the RC church was founded.

Douglas, I have a ticket like you.

Sandy, you are right,I'm not trying to impose my ideas on anyone.

20. Gordon

Correct. At the last census, Roman Catholics formed 15.9% of the population.

At the last Church census, approximately 202,000 Roman Catholics attended their place of worship of a Sunday (around 4% of the Scottish population).

In essence, O'Brien represents next to no one. Why is he given the oxygen? In the eyes of many, when it was widely reported he harboured paedophiles, he should have bneen arrested, not given bloody credence in a national newspaper.

13. Paul

JPII further told us that all the wee Hundu, Muslim, Sikh, Protestant, Jewish, Atheist and Jedai Knight weans wouldn't be allowed into heaven because they are not Roman Catholics. The ruling in question was written for him by Ratzinger, the current incumbent. You know the one, the one who Panorama showed to be another paedophile harbourer a few weeks ago?

What a pair of thoroughly evil men. Imagine all those wee weans killed in car crashes and natural disasters being told by St. Peter at the pearly gates "sorry kid, ye cannae get in, yer no a Kafflik."

Read "The Pope In Winter - The Dark Side Of John Paul II" by John Cornwell.

How many of that 4% actually listen to him, are they all avoiding contraception etc.

How many will change their vote on his says so?

If like the rest of the population and only half of that 4% actually bother to vote has Alex Salmond and the SNP been sold for 2% of the scottish voters and a few platitudes and 100k of tom farmers cash?

How will those Muslims which prop up the school roll for many of glasgows faith based schools feel about his rant?

Will they be the ones he wants to apologise, perhaps taken to the front of the class first thing monday morning to do so.

How will this sit with the muslim votes salmond and the snp have been working on too?

Fairly sure at conference the other week a Scottish muslims for independance group was formed, will they be seated beside farmers lot next year only if they apologise?

Another thing. If the Vatican claim the Pope is "God's representative on earth" and "infallible", then why did he have to apologise to Muslims just a few weeks ago?

If there is a God, and Ratzinger's his representative on earth, I'll gladly follow his doctrines and as a non-RC, give heaven a miss.

24. Gordon

Roman Catholicism is a religion every bit as backward as certain Muslim sects.

They'll be whipping themselves and wearing celice's next!

Has Ratzinger apologised for every act of Tariq Aziz?

The Deputy Prime Minister of Saddam's Iraq is a member of the Chaldean Catholic Church which maintains full communion with the Pope of Rome. In fact on February 14, 2003 Aziz had an audience with Pope John Paul II and other officials in Vatican City.

Is there any truth in allegations that there is a strong anti catholic lobby in Britain ?

on the evidence of the above post there sure is !!!

The interesting and disturbing feature is how bitter and venomous the comments are -do all these folk have impeccable lifestyles ..and spend a large part of their spare time involved in good works -perhaps not !!

all are advised to read the catholic herald interview and also the haldane article on the same in the scotsman this week

29. Fergus

Aye, right ye are Fergus ya plum, we'll get a really balanced view from the Catholic Herald! What's your next suggestion? Read about the Holocaust in a Neo-Nazi magazine?

I certainly don't have an impeccable lifestyle, nor do I claim to have, but I'll tell you one thing - I would NEVER cover up paedophilia as O'Brien did. Wake up and smell the coffee.

There is a very distinct difference between anti-Catholic and anti-Catholicism. Open your other eye and have a think about it.

Anyone want to bet how long #25 will stay on this comments board?

I have a suggestion for the good Cardinal and his cohorts - why don't they stick to writing sermons and doing weddings, christenings and funerals? Is that not what they are paid to do?

31. JG

Too busy sticking their noses into other peoples business as they have been for centuries.

It's probably lost on most RC's how the act of confession came to pass.

dear jimmy -your sophistication is wearing thin .the reason i suggested you read the article is to find out what the cardinal actually said in the interview
lets agree one thing lets start with the truth and not someones interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation.
One thing I can tell you is that I have spent a substantial part of my professional life working in the field of child protection and I can confirm that the Catholic Church representatives in the past have made a number of serious errors of judgement in not reporting allegations timeously to the civil authorities-specialist social work and police teams trained to investigate -but they shared these deficiencies with most other agencies including local authorities.The situation now is that ,following a series of enquiries and reports ,procedures have been established which apply to all organisations.If you ,for example,want to coach or train children in a sport or musical instrument youu will have checks carries out for each and every activity -these procedures apply to church and related organisatiions

leaving aside anti-catholism and skeptism about their motives (their role in drafting the failed EU constitution was particularly iffy and the current attempt by 'catholic' countries to ban research into stem cells in the EU science Framework programme).

If the 'west' is expected to apologize for historical injustice, it is only right that those who lead in the muslim world apologise or at least express unconditional regret for the atrocities committed in their name in New York, Madrid and London. To not do so, accepts that the western response in Iraq and Afghanistan is proportionate.

33. Fergus

Nice try, but I'm simply not wearing it. There is a vast difference between "errors of judgement" and "deficiencies" and just plain old cover-up and harbouring, and if you work in the field you claim to, you know that to be the case.

I am agnostic. I have an open mind and read a lot. The worldwide child sex abuse cover-ups and paedophile harbouring of the RC Church are well documented. In my opinion, and that of millions of others, they are not an organisation fit to moralise or preach to the rest of us. I think it was Bill Hicks who described them as "The World's Biggest Paedophile Ring" and he's not far wrong.

We'll leave the Murder, Nazi-collusion, money laundering, art theft, Mafia links, fraud etc etc etc for another day shall we?

An inflammatory remark and I guess he just likes publicity.
He doesn't speak for me anyway, I have emailed him and told him that he is wrong.

"iIwould not get too involved with political parties fighting for independence,but I am happy that,if it is the wish of the people ,Scotland becomes an independent country " carinal o brien catholic herald interview

Thank you Fergus #33 - one sane and objective post amongst the deranged

I,am not a religious person but thank god someone has the guts to come out and say what the silent majority have been thinking since 9/11. Too many of us, both old and young live in fear of attack.

37. William

It may have escaped your notice, but the main body of the story to which this thread pertains related to his calling for Muslims to apologise for 9/11 and 7/7.

Should Roman Catholics apologise for the Omagh Bombing and the Warrington atrocity?

O'Brien speaks for around 4% of the population and I'd wager even some of them wish he'd shut his face.

#33thanks for a more rational response.You will find if you can spare the time to search and read some of the weighty child abuse reports that a lot of actions covered in the main child protection enquiries can indeed be construed as" cover up" or negligence in some instances or lack of courage to whistle blow in others.The term cover up is not restricted to church bodies.
A scenario -you coach a juvenile football team with a friend you have known for ten years.After a practice match in which you friend gave a rocket to a young player for not trying hard enough you are approached by the young player one hour later and he says that your friend toouched him inappropriately while they were leaving the shower -they were delayed becaus e of the row and there no witnesses .What do yo do?? this is a frequent scenario faced by youth workers ,teachers, church workers etc : this is a complex field easily trivialised

40. William

Here's another scenario for you:

Sunday Mail 18 December 2005

SILENCE AND SECRETS

This priest was convicted of the terrible abuse of young girls. Today, a damning dossier reveals bishops knew of 18 others accused of sex crimes but did not tell police about any of them.

By Marion Scott

THE leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland failed to alert police after 19 priests were accused of being paedophiles.

A damning document obtained by the Sunday Mail reveals how bishops in Scotland's eight dioceses did not call in detectives to probe sex abuse against the priests.

Most were allowed to continue in their posts or relocated to other parishes.

The bombshell report reveals 19 Scottish priests were accused of abuse between 1985 and 1995.
Only one was convicted after police were alerted by his bishop. Victims complained to police about nine of the other 18 but the church failed to inform the authorities about any.

The dossier reveals how:

#A priest attacked two women with learning difficulties but was never charged. He retired after his bishop found him a lawyer and a psychiatrist.

#One priest who confessed to a series of sex attacks was sent for therapy at a church home in Gloucestershire.

#Another, who police believed had molested a teenage boy, was allowed to return to work after three months.

#A priest accused of attacking a boy moved to a new parish despite his Scots bishop wanting him defrocked.

#Another was allowed to stay in post despite stalking a teenage boy.

Helen Holland of campaign group In Care Abuse Survivors, said: "Our fears are the Catholic Church in Scotland is continuing quietly to sweep abuses under the carpet.

Protection "It is clear that they must now be dragged kicking and screaming into openess."
The dossier was compiled in 1995 as the church was forced to review how it dealt with a barr

Is he also going to say sorry for th "Inquisition" and the crimes carried out by "bloody Mary"in the England,as a Catholic its a very slippy path to start going down.

continued from above:

The report says Bishop Joe Devine detailed how the church in Motherwell tried unsuccessfully to defrock a priest who attacked an eight-year-old boy.

The Bishop wrote: "That the Holy See (Vatican) failed to grant this petition was a matter of bafflement to me" In another complaint, a young girl said another priest had touched her inappropriately.

But Bishop Devine wrote: "I have relatives in that parish, all of whom see him as an excellent parish priest."

In the St Andrew's and Edinburgh diocese, Scotland's most powerful churchman, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, said two priests accused of abusing boys were removed for "treatment".

Several priests were sent to a "rehabilitation" centre at Our Lady of Victory, in Gloucestershire.
One returned to administration duties in the diocese on the condition that he was not left alone with children.

The late Cardinal Thomas Winning, then Bishop of Glasgow, admitted a priest had stalked a 16-year-old boy and they also removed a priest accused of assaulting a teenage girl and advised her to contact police.

The Bishop of Dunkeld, Vincent Logan, said police probed claims against a priest made by a boy of 13.
The Bishop was told "informally" by the Deputy Chief Constable that police believed the boy but there was no prosecution Only one of the 19 accused priests was convicted. Canon Joseph Terry, priest for Ballachulish and Kinlochleven, was jailed for six years in 1998 for indecency against girls aged seven to 16 between 1963 and 1971.
Last night, SNP MSP Linda Fabiani, called for a public inquiry.

"The Scottish Executive must agree to find out how widespread this problem has been so we can begin to repair the damage of the past," she said.
Peter Reid, of campaign group Men Against Sexual Abuse, said: "These shocking documents prove that the Catholic Church in Scotland have been cove

it is quite interesting that John Reids comments on the Islamic issue is also generating a great deal of heat .there is clearly a groundswell of reaction agin extremist islam activists in this county.Let us not gorget that this specific group intend have as their main objective the islamiicization of all european countries -without exception .This is perhaps a point which should be taken on bord by some of those scribing Christophobic posts above
"A Muslim has no nationality except his belief"
Sayyid Qutb If you doubt this study recent reviews of European demography are interesting -birthrate of Iran v GB ??

#JIMMY JIMMY JIMMMY you filled half the scotland on sunday website with your newspaper quotes last week
the Catholic church was deficient -so were others -read the plethora oF child abuse enquiriesa and you will find similar scenarios..

tell us how you would proceed in the scenario given-the culpability of the catholic church and oothers in the past is not in question The point i am making is that this is a complex issue which all of us may face in one way or another eg are you prpared to shop a mate -have him siuspended and investigated on the disclosure of a young person who may have a grievance OR MAY IN FACRT BE TELLING THE TRUTH

44. Fergus

"there is clearly a groundswell of reaction agin (sic) extremist islam activists in this county."

Big difference between "extremist Islam" and O'Brien's call for "Muslims to apologise". I'll ask you again: should Roman Catholics apologise for the Omagh bombing or the Warrington atrocity? Yes or no will do.

"This is perhaps a point which should be taken on bord (sic) by some of those scribing Christophobic posts above"

Is disagreeing with a man of dubious morals who has opened his mouth without thinking "Christophobic" now is it? Have a word with yourself.

45. WILLIAM WILLIAM WILLIAM

"the Catholic church was deficient"

Deficient? Deficient you say? Read that report again then hang you're head in shame. Let's hope they're never "deficient" with a child from your family eh?

Slabber, deny, deflect. It's what you do best.

"are you prpared (sic) to shop a mate -have him siuspended (sic) and investigated on the disclosure of a young person who may have a grievance OR MAY IN FACRT (sic) BE TELLING THE TRUTH"

Are you telling me you would not inform the police if someone you knew was accused of child abuse? Seriously?

You need to look in the mirror.

Besides, the cases against O'Brien were never denied by ANYONE. He harboured child molestors. Face facts and stop trying to defend the indefensible.

The Vatican’s accounts have fallen into the red in recent years partly because of the financial damage done by abuse scandals in the US Church, the largest donor to the Holy See.

Three US dioceses have filed for bankruptcy. More than $840 million (£443.6 million) has been paid out to the 10,700 identified victims of more than 4,000 paedophile priests. In Boston, $85 million was paid in a settlement to 540 victims and 80 churches were closed down. The Archbishop, Cardinal Bernard Law, 75, was forced to resign. In Ireland, the country’s four million Catholics are facing bills of €26.5 million (£18.1 million) over five years as a result of sex abuse by priests.

There you go William. Some amount of "deficiency" there eh? And 10,700 children with greivances who are not telling the truth. 4000 innocent priests wrongly accused.

You couldn't make it up.

#45 I am sorry that you cannot understand the most basic communication -I simply,yet again,gave you the scenario by way of illustration :complex issues accompany most investigations and evidence gathering is often difficult even with the best forensic assistance.That is the point I am making and I have never colludede ,in practice or in these posts,with the suggestion that disclosures should be ignored or minimised.I am becoming increasingly concerned with your tendency to twist and distort reality -any health professional would have a field day analysing your posts in this respect.Given that the mail seemsa to be the main source of authority in your" favourites" section can you tell us more about the dossier -it is all a bit unclear.I agree ,yet again,that the Catholic church ,a;ong with other bodies(education authorities,police,scouts etc,church of england etc) in frmulating and adhering to child protection procedures

I would be very grateful if the obsessional-paranoid neurotic called Jimmy (this time) from weary tyne could pay more attention to the main theme of this article _concerns re Islam and the Cardinal

49. William

"I am becoming increasingly concerned with your tendency to twist and distort reality"

The last refuge of those trying to defend the indefensible. I have produced reports which detail O'Brien's collusion in the cover-up of child abuse. That's the same O'Brien who is moralising to Muslims. You have produced eh........nothing. No surprise there then!

"any health professional would have a field day analysing your posts in this respect."

Sure they would Father. Is that really the best you can do? You're desperate now....

Aye, go on. Give the "hmpphhh, the Sunday Mail...." routine. Where are the RC Church in Scotland's libel claims against this publication? I look forward to you producing them....

Tick tock tick tock.....

My point has always been, this week and last week, that O'Brien's views represent a tiny minority of the population and are given too much credence by publications like Scotland On Sunday. Besides, he is a discredited man.

# 29 It was all perfectly predictable. The usual ranting, bitter bile, and psychologically worrying emotional outbursts from a chorus of anti-Catholic fanatics.
It's pathetic, but... they just can't help it.

50. Fungus.

Looks like I've hit a raw nerve eh? Still no comment on whetehr your Church (go on, tell me you're not a Roman Catholic, they usually do) should apologise for Omagh and Warrington?

"My point has always been, this week and last week, that O'Brien's views represent a tiny minority of the population and are given too much credence by publications like Scotland On Sunday. Besides, he is a discredited man."

Read it slowly Fungus.

what reports

52. Brian

Dry yer eyes.

You are another who clearly fails to differentiate between anti-Catholic and anti-Catholicism, although the bag of chips on your shoulder means it suits you.

What's your opinion on you RC's not being allowed to be head of the Anglican Church? Shocking isn't it?

You make me laugh!

54. The newspaper reports I posted Willie. Try Specsavers.

Still waiting.....tick tock tick tock....

And the SNP thought they were clever, recruiting Cardinal O'Brien to win them some votes next May.

How clever is that!

57. Jim

I would suggest Salmond's desperate transparent attempts to court the RC vote during the Artur Boruc affair, where he ended up making a complete clown of himself, will actually end up losing him votes.

There are too many people, RC's included, with their own minds these days to fall for his cheap stunts.

MEMO ALL DEPARTMENTS

Following a review of the research facilities of all government departments it has been decided that the offices of the Sunday Mail should now be given responsibility for all research activities within the nation.The efficiency of these offices has reached such a comprehensive (blast rangers scored !!!) and overwhelmingly effective coverage of all that ails the nation that P.Bush has also expressed interest in gaining access to their facilitites.All dept.heads please note communications for research and report contracts to "Jimmy"code t~w
This memo supercedes all others issued from this office on research and related subjects

60. WHITEHALL TURNIP

The other report was from the (London) Times. You know, the one about the 4,000 paedophile priests?

This one's from last week's Private Eye:

Under the headline 'MEDIA NEWS';

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor was moved to righteous rage by the recent Panorama accusing the Pope of covering up child abuse by Priests. He has sent a formal complaint to BBC director-general Mark Thompson - himself a Catholic - complaining about the 'unwarranted' and 'deeply prejudiced' programme.

When he calms down a bit, the Cardinal might pause to recall the scriptures notes about motes and beams. He might also recall the case of a one-time Bishop of Arundel and Brighton who learned in 1985 that one of his priests, Michael Hill, was a dangerous paedophile. Instead of contacting the police, the Bishop 'forgave' Hill and made him chaplain at Gatwick airport - where he sexually assaulted several more children.

Hill eventually went to jail. But the Bishops career flourished. His name? Cormac Murphy O'Connor.

DENY, DEFLECT, DEPLORE.

As a post graduate student about to apply for a place in a British university I am quite aghast at some of the copy on this website.I had no idea that anti Christain feelings were so vehement in Britain.Perhaps along with others I will find another country which respects religion -your country is a nightmare

Bill#21: Glad you take it in the spirit it's intended. Cheers.

#JIMMY
I am actually in favour of folk apologising all the time.Pope John Paul 11 led a day of pardon at St Peters Basilica onMarch 12 2000 with the main theme " asking Gods pardon for those times when Christians used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth"In this way we are more likely to avoid blowing each other to pieces .Have you considered ,Jimmy,how your views and attitude -as depicted with such awesome clarity in your posts-would translate into the world if others were like you and produced so much uncompromising bile - it would be dire ,wee man,you are a right word monger.Never mind there are over 1.1 billion ++++ catholics in the world and along with others of good will from all denominations and faiths we will create a better and more harmonious world.Fiurther the catholic church is growing on a a world basis and this is a good thing

20. Gordon: Hows that?

I know many cathlics in Scotland and I'm no Cathlic myself.
If there really such a minourty faith how come I know more (& more of friends are) Cathlics than Prodcents.

The Catholic church cannot never be ignored in the world of politics.Anyone who believes that is totally unaware of the daily preoccupations of election agents and researchers who study every statement made by church leaders. The revered and departing Tony Blair moved very quickly to respond to the Cardinal on the independence issue.Cardinal Winning had him on the ropes whenever he decided to take issue with him.
You may not like what the church is about - you cannot ignore its power and presence in the world and its networks .

"A youthful Muslim society to the south and east of the Mediterranean is poised to colonize..the term is not too strong..a senescent Europe"
not a priest,not a cardinal but hard edged historian Niall Ferguson(he now supports independence for Scotland) . A senescent Britain will make its choices over the next decade in successive elections -what price gradual erosion of primary democratic values.No Islamic society has developed into a pluralistic democracy except Turkey which took Islam out of public life.We await the development of a new social doctine in Europe in countries where there is a strong Islamic presence -it is inevitable.

#55
You must be the only person in the U K who does not find the Act of Settlement a blight on our so called democratic country.The matter of Equal Rights is a principle and should be tackled even if the legislative process is laborious

I take it Muslims will apologise, after the Catholic Church apologises for all the millions it and its followers have exterminated. Let's face it, Mr Hitler is in the premier league compared to Saddam and Mr Bin Laden

#It already has -as stated above-and will probably do so again.It is well documented that in the decisive elections in 1933 Hitler had no majorities in the Catholics states.over 12,000 priests and male religiious were victims during the Hitler era-these represented 36% of the clergy at the time.

Jackboot Jimmy, Tyne and Weirdo -

You openeth your mouth, simpleminded with mouth agape, and what should cometh out the other end, behold, cometh out your mouth.

But, fear not, all is forgiven, for you are indeed ... an entertaining freakshow.
A source of amusement is the ridiculous buffoon.

God Bless you, son... you need it.

#57 pure - dead -brilliant :just wait and see.The SNP have Labour in total panic -please come back Wendy is the call "you are the fairest of them all "(and the only one with brains) Jack has ot got it and those around him lack conviction.Alec has a long establishe drelationship of trust with the Catholic church in Scotland and he has also made massive inroads into the ethnic minority vote.On the theme of this article the Cardinal has articulated the views of many in this country but while he provides a focus on bridge building through the creation of mutual respect -an apology does build bridges-the general feeling in the community is more strident and closed to John Reids position reported today...enough ,enough of political correctness

May I say that I am amazed at the number of people who do not know the difference between the teachings of Christ--and the teachings of islam--- still even the labour government admit the education system is failing and they too have shown ignorance of islam.
They should be visiting www.jihadwatch.org to understand just what is taking place in the world
So the rants of the dunderheads cut no ice anywhere except in the cul-de-sac world of their own ignorance and as to their knowledge of the English language--it does have anaesthetic qualities for the reader.

"I take it Muslims will apologise, after the Catholic Church apologises for all the millions it and its followers have exterminated. Let's face it, Mr Hitler is in the premier league compared to Saddam and Mr Bin Laden"

Was Hitler a practising Catholic?

Tyne & Wear guy, would be interested to hear if your opinion is that the Catholic Church has a worse record on paedophilia/pederasty than other institutions in which children are looked after.

Barry B (9)

"Comments like this by Cardinal O' Brien show just how out of touch the Catholic church is with the real world"

Actually I think the reaction to Pope Benedict's mention of Islam and violence, and the nerve Cardinal O'Brien's comments have clearly touched here, show that the Catholic Church is more in touch with reality than you think.

Re O'Brien's comments, has it never irked you that the global opposition from Muslims to Al Qaeda's activities is not stronger? I hear an almost deafening silence. Perhaps a few token quotes, but no real outrage.

Comparing 9/11 etc. with Omagh isn't appropriate; the IRA have never been explicitly Catholic. The IRA have always been motivated by territory. Naturally, the demographics meant that most in the IRA and most of their supporters were Catholic, but at no point did the IRA ever say they were bombing to advance Catholicism.

There's a categorical difference here.

Militant Islam is explicitly about conquest of the West. It's about destruction of secular humanism and Christianity (and any other belief system, for that matter) so that it can be replaced by Islam.

I think the Catholic Church is being rather far-sighted in putting its global reach and influence behind highlighting this issue. The Catholic Church is the only global, powerful organisation which speaks on moral and religious matters and which is heard. (Op-eds in secular humanism-orientated London broadsheets have rather less reach!)

Elmer (#61)

Agreed! Scotland is getting to be very anti-Christian. The bigots are taking over and you might well be wiser seeking a more tolerant society in which to live and persue your studies. Try England. Oh, and I AM Scots!

#73
He was not a practising Catholic-the Reich church was created in 1936 with "Mein Kampf" as the Bible and the cross replaced by the swastika.

Jimmy Tyne & Wear

Wow....you really hate Roman Catholics....don't you.......I'd love to know your background and the source of this hatred.........your a scary person

Take a long hard look at yourself.......Bigot!!!!

Columba and Fergus - so you claim Hitler wasn't a practising Catholic, so you would admit he was a Catholic? Odd isn't it that the Pope during the war Pope Pious, I think, was known as Hitler's Pope, and one of the reasons I've read that he didn't condemn Hitler, was the Catholic Church was afraid that Russia would get control of Germany, and they would have no influence.

As for Pope Benedict, give the guy his due, one of the few people in the world this year to unite Muslims and Jews on an issue, he's managed to upset them both!

Personally I feel they problem with any religion, is that it gets tainted when various factions try to impose their interpretation and views on the original message.

"The Catholic church proposes;she imposes nothing"
this is a recent statement of mission and leaves folk free to make their choices .Islam -in its extreme fundamentlist forms offers no such invitation.Relations between the Catholic church and Jews are ,,in fact,very positive ;the "shot across the bows" of rampant fundamental Islam has been viewed by many as timely.It was also a statement of fact.
check Tommy#72 for interesting and chilling reference and also Fergus re domocracy#66.The extent of the ifluence of the catholic church in world affairs should never bbbe underestimated-it is mostly pro peace , anti war and seeking reconciliation.The abuse of children by priests is a disgrace and has brought the entire church,perhaps unfairly, into disrepute -in each and every case any allegations of abuse shoould have been dealt with by the police and social services and if and when proven the person should cease to be a priest.There is .of course ,substantial scope for self scrutiny within other professional groupings(eg teachers,other clergy,police,youth leaders) regarding the ill treatment and abuse of children.

On the new "scotsman" article re John Reids latest proposals on regaining some ground in government-Islam relations interesting posts are emerging.Perhaps Pope Benedict was appropriately provocative after all-his book Europe:its foundations today and tomorrow"- makes interesting reading against the current Reid backcloth .Clearly our shared democracy,human rights,tolerance etc are rooted in a European Christian heritage.As Europe becomes less aware of these roots the demographic spread of Islam will fill the gaps and Islamic based variations on human rights,sharia law and other legislative changes will gradually replace the current
value based structures

63. Fungus

Ooooohh, have I touched a raw nerve? Would you like a Kleenex?

I'm perfectly happy that I'm not particularly keen on an organisation tainted by murder, child abuse on an epedemic scale, Nazi-collaboration, Mafia links, art theft, fraud.......perfectly comfortable with that.

More lies from you Fergus. Only two religions in the world are growing - Islam and Evangelism. You can't just make it up as you go along. Oh, and as for your pathetic "wee man". I'm 6' 3".

67. Cedric

In your quest for true democracy, I look forward to your campaign for Bhuddists to be Pope, women to be priests, Hindu's to be Rabbi's, Mormon's to be Iman's.......the world's a real nasty place eh?

70. Brian

If that's your level of debate, I suggest you go and enroll for some Standard Grades or stick to the Sunday Post, where you're best suited, reading about knitting patterns.

73 & 74. Columba

In 1941, Hitler said to General Gerhart Engel:
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Is that your way of justifying epedemic child abuse? "There are other organisations wurser than us?" How disturbing. I put it to you that if Walmart had been uncovered as having thousands of paedophile employees and had to pay out $billions in compensation you would not shop there. I hope.

77. Fungus

Can you please stop telling lies? Try going to a library.

Hitler biographer, John Toland:

Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome… he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god… extermination could be done without a twinge of conscience… he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god.

78. Charlie

My earlier statement about the difference between a distrust of Roman Catholics and a distrust of Roman Catholicism probably flew straight over your empty head. I have many friends and family who are RC's. However, I would

Muhammed Abdel Bari, the new head of the Muslim Council of Britain, has said that if the general population does not cease its criticism of Muslims, Britain wil have to deal with 2 million terrorists and 700,000 in London alone. Jews, Israel and Zionists are heartily criticised by MPs and in the media on a daily basis. Do we hear Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks threatening that 260,000 British Jews will kill us all? When the IRA was at its height did Cardinal Hume threaten that millions of Catholics would kill us all if we criticises the IRA?
The Muslims need more moderate leadership, for a start.

Pope Benedict was the subject of much abuse and criticism when he made his Regensburg address but he achieved what others have not been able to do -a clear statement from 38 Sunni and SHiite Muslim leaders and theologians has now been made as a result of the meeting which the Pope organised.This statement acknowledges that over half the worlds population is Catholic or Muslim and these leaders stress the importance these religions play in moving towards and maintaining peace .The statement reads
" we share your desire for frank and sincere dialogue and recognise its importance in an increasingly interconnected world"
it continues"upon this sincere and frank dialogue we hope to continue to build peaceful and friendly relationships based on mutual respect,justice and what is in common"The damage to the image of Islam caused by extremists is now under more scrutiny from within a religion which has no centralised authority but nevertheless the moderate core would want to sress that reason rather than violence is the basis of its mission.As Professor Fr Samir Khalil Samir of Lebanon University stated recently "we have to recognise the fact that violence is normalised by those who quote the Koran,so you cannot say it is nothing to do with Islam-we have to solve the problem".On this basis the cardinals call for an apology for 9/11 and other actions can be seen as forming part of a larger tapestry of world relations

#82
I agree-the statement you have quoted is abusive and is an explicit threat

The Cardinal sounds like another "Braveheart" to me. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said that there are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what what they THINK is the Catholic Church.
The posts show this to be true. Visit www.catholicanswers.com

quote

"O'Brien expands on his views on the British constitution. He declares that he "would be only too happy to continue to undermine the British State" if it goes on espousing sectarianism in the form of the Act of Settlement - the law which bars Catholics from marrying the heir to the throne."

A bit of clarification on that law. It also bars non CoE members from marrying the heir to the throne, so members of numurous other strands of the Protestant community are also barred.
That part of the Act may be unfair, but it certainly isn't sectarian.

On another note. The comment at 45 complains of the continued use of newspaper quotes from Jimmy.
Strangely, I have no recollection of "William" on that thread last week. Now either "William" was too shy to join in, or has changed his name by deed poll in the last week. I think we should be told.

I was in fact in Paris most of last week but followed the 500+ posts with some interest at various points without getting too involved as acccess to laptop connection was limited -it was depressing reading but the above lot seems more rational with one or two exceptions.
it is also my understanding that the ACT bans Roman catholics and other non Protestantsfrom succession to the British throne >The Cardinal is therefore inaccurate in defining the situation as represening sectarianism but it is a clear breach of the Human Rights Act.Tony slipped up badly on this one even if the legal process-albeit complex-could have tackled incremently -ie show willingness to change things

The Act of Settlement does ,however,contain a form of words which are pretty anti-catholic..."that all and every person and persons that then were,or afterwards should be reconciled to,or shall hold communion with the see or Church of Rome,or should profess the popish religion, or marry a papist,should be excluded etc etc
not much scope there for young patrick o reilly and his pals at least three clauses of the HRA could be used to challenge it

What a dissappointment for Scotland on Sunday - almost 9pm on Monday night and not even 90 comments!

For the second Sunday in a row, they have lifted comments made by Cardinal O'Brien to a Catholic newspaper and sensationalised them to the nth degree. It certainly worked last week with the bigots out in strength, aided and abbetted by their brothers at The Scotsman last Monday.

This week, with quotations from the SAME interview as last week's, the reaction has been much more muted.

Overkill? Or too much energy expended last week by the foaming at the mouth brigade? Maybe we're at the limit of their collective attention span.

perhaps they were all watching channel 4 @8pm

Sterling work yesterday Fergus.

What was on?

DOES ISLAM RESTRICT FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN THIS COUNTRY---JON SNOW Chairing debate
thought provoking but issues raised in above post#83 not mentioned

The Muslims shouldn't have to apologise.The British
should just submit to Islam and avoid any more terrorism and trouble.

Nice one -#93-there are a few problems like Shariah law and beeeg,beeeeg issuses of freedom of speech

If the Cardinal can supply us with an atom of evidence that Islam was involved in either Sep 11 or July 7 it should produce it or keep quiet.

Take a look at Paris, that's headed your way.

I believe Cardinal Keith O'Brien is making that same point that the Pope did. The muslims seethe and whine at every perceived slight by the majority populations in which they have chosen to live. And once they feel they have enough power, they begin pushing for the implementation of sharia. Islam started out in Arabia and has spread like darkness ever since, usurping entire cultures and eliminating any deemed unclean.

If the people of Europe and the people of Great Britain do not staunch the flow of muslims, they will suffer the same fate as Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Indonesia, Thailand, and every other country that has been touched by the peacful hand of allah. The pre-islamic culture is destroyed and replaced with islam. Head chopping is institutionalized as is mysogony and other cultural hallmarks of islam like no dogs, no pork, no beer, no singing, no art, nothing. Just black opression of the human soul.

The Enemy: islam and the muslims that spread it.
The Solution: detention, deprtation, execution.

Any culture that treats women the way islam treats women is a culture worthy of destruction.