God save us from these lying fascists, anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that this latest terror threat is yet another ruse to terrify the public into accepting further restrictions on their liberties.

We are now living in a police state, we are not just sliding into a police state, the nightmare is here already.

The press has much to answer for, why are you not bellowing for the details, the evidence of these fantastic plots. When all the fuss dies down ,no doubt those who cannot be framed will be released quietly , long before a trial before jury exposes this fraudulent attempt to divert attention from the present difficulties of the Republican Party in America and their hideous labour supporters in this country.

Of course by that time it will be too late , all vestiges of a true democracy will have been stripped away.

There is a further down side to this, the EU could well have grounds to expell the UK from the Union on the grounds of human rights violations and the breaking of treaties which guarantee these rights as a condition of membership.

During the troubles in Ulster, the government of the day introduced internment to counter terrorism - with well documented and disastrous results.

If the Labour government decides to push through 90-day detention without charge for terror suspects, I fear this will be just another example of Blair, Brown and Reid acting as recruiting sergeants for terrorist organisations.

The trio seem incapable of considering the possible consequences.

Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.

I find it disheartening (to say the least) that immigrants welcomed to our country should now try to down 10 planes with homemade explosives. Let's get back to reality...if the immigrants don't agree with our political stance / policies or government - then leave the country. I'm sure that there is an abundance of jobs and a better standard of living in Pakistan since they seem to find Western Europe and America annoying because we don't agree with their extremist beliefs. If you don't like our country - then leave it! Don't sit and complain about the things that you don't have or the policies that are put into place! Instead, look around at the things you DO have and the standard of life you have in the UK versus what you'd have in Pakistan. If you find that you still don't like it, get on the next plane out! It's a shame that these extremists are putting a cloud over the muslim population in Britain. Many of them are happy to live here and call it home. Unfortunately, there lives will be that much harder now. Let's all take the time to remember that they're not all the same...and let's kick the extremists out!

The brightest light is in the darkest forest

Quite right Abigail. William and Mev Brown should be flown out with them. Apologists ... you don't have a clue. People like you should be sent to the front ... thats all your of use for.

Bush bin Laden and his Poodle, Tony Blair, are prepping for the next 9/11-style attack so that the Republicans can steal (more) elections in 2006 and 2008.

Dictator Bush was never elected in the United States, and we view him as the most dangerous terrorist on earth. His regime must be stopped.

Cheers,
Lori R. Price
Gen. Mgr.
Citizens For Legitimate Government
http://www.legitgov.org/

Dear Mr Bin Laden,

I am writing to inform you that you have won the war on terror. Blair has submitted. Britain's fundamental liberties are going to be curbed. Well done.

Add Lori Price and LC to the flight list.

Put some of these nutcases who are against the 90 day detention in the front line with the troops in Afghanistan and let them see the effects of terrorism. Whist I do not agree with whatthe Americans are doing in Guantanamo Bay, we must take a harder line on suspected terrorists. Obviously the Governments intelligence must be working as they were able to foil this attempt, therefore I am sure they know who the culprits are.

Yet another attempt by Blair and his totalitarian government to get rid of all our human rights.

They can't seriously expect people to believe all their claims about the people they arrest, and murder, as they never seem to be able to come up with any proof or take anyone to court.

As usual, all the little jobsworths are in seventh heaven with enforcing stupid rules (like being able to carry your eye galsses in your hand luggage), but not the case for them.

The Metropolitan police, a.k.a. our own, home grown, terrorists will likely be out and about looking for another innocent, unarmed, victim to gun down.

Tony Blair will continue kow-towing to that other war criminal Bush, and we will all continue down the slippery slope to total facism. Never mind Tony, Joe Stalin and Adolf Hitler would have been proud of you.

Here, here Abigail...glad to hear someone talking sense. Yes, if any Muslim immigrant doesn't like it, the British government should offer to pay for a One-way ticket for them back to Talebanistan. Is it not the case that in most Islamic states with Sharia Law, women cannot vote, drive and are denied other basic human rights? They may not like British foreign policy, but that is no excuse for the evil acts being planned by the Islamic fanatics.
With regards the 90 day arrests, we have accomodated these civil liberties nuts for too long. In these perilous times, anybody with nothing to hide should OK the new measure. The police need all the help against this menace. I am sure if you conducted a poll, there would now be a UK public in favour of the 90 day policy. And whilst we're at, why not bring in national ID cards? Although I'm sure someone would claim that still breaches the Brussels Human Rights Act

Ah, the (bogus) war on terror.

Blair, in his recent global warmongering rants, accused Wahhabism and The Muslim Brotherhood as the source of the current terror threat.

Wahhabism can be blamed on a British Intelligence agent called Hempher. Google "Hempher Wahhabi" to find Hempher's memoirs.

The Masonic Muslim Brotherhood is also a creation of British Intelligence.

So if Blair is accusing British Intelligence as the source of the current terror threat he is soooo right. In fact it would be one of the very few times he has been correct on anything.

Meanwhile back in the BushCave, BushMan tells us the "Islamic fascists" want to destroy our freedoms. Well, Blair, Reid and the rest are doing that for them!!

Don't you get it? Through fear we are so much more easier to manipulate. That fear can be manufactured through allowing terrorist attacks to occur (9/11, 7/7), or by creating false terrorist attacks (Old Trafford, Ricin). I have a healthy degree of scepticism about this latest 'bust'. As with most of these world-stopping arrests it 'does not compute'. Blair apparently knew all about it but still went on holiday. What if the arrests went wrong and the suspects escaped and blew up London? Why are all confiscated liquids being mixed together when that is what the alleged suspects wanted to do? Someone has not quite thought this one through thoroughly.

Abigail, Jim Livingston, Martin, Bankok

I understand how you feel. It is a very reasonable reaction to your being appraised of the "foiled event". I understand you might want to have a 90 day detention without charge or trial for anyone the Police feel they should detain. That would give you a sense of things being under control, of being safe and of "them" being immobilised.

I know you also realise that in doing this you change the nature of your own society from one in which the presumption of innocence applies, in which every man and woman is free unless there is a charge and they are brought before a Court of law where their guilt is established beyond reasonable doubt.

That idea of freedom is important not so much for alleged terrorists, as it is for every man, woman and child who might be mistakenly apprehended, maliciously "informed upon" or simply swept up in an effort to make it look as though everything is under control.

In that sense it is the rule of law which protects everyone because only in accordance with the rule of law, requiring evidence for arrest and proof for guilt, that the society is a free one.

For many years England has been a free society in that sense (with some lapses).

In your desire to solve the "problem", there is a risk that you actually put yourself in a cage- a society where freedom is no longer a prime value. It is of course entirely your choice, and if enough folk make the same choice as you do, then you will no doubt have your way. You are free to choose- though that may be your last exercise of true freedom. History suggests that once you have walked into a cage and given the key to a policeman, it is a very, very long time before you ever get out. You will perhaps feel safe, but I wonder if a bird in a cage would prefer that safety to freedom?

Lest you accuse me of idealism, and ask "what would you do with these (alleged) terrorists"

Here Here Abigail, I'm with you...and maybe the 'government' should be a little more careful who they let into the country in the first place. My friends husband had to go through rigorous interviews and paperwork and 9 months after his application he was finally admitted from Pakistan. I have to say that I agree with Abigail but that in honesty the thought has crossed my mind... why did a Pakistani business man marry such a quiet unassuming British girl? I hate that this has made me suspicious of so many wonderful people.

Oh Lori #6, you are soooooooooooooo confused. Yes the people did elect Bush. Remember the recount? Even if the Electoral voting system were done away with he won by the numbers as well. It sounds to me like you need to be shipped out with those other's who would destroy the nation. You're probably one of those inciting riots and causing uprisings all round. Bush isn't a dictator whether or not you or anyone else likes him. Leave that job for Sadam. Bush is probably doing his best with what he's being given to work with. I don't believe any American President would deliberately set the US up for terrorist attacks. I say to Lori and her fight for legitimate government... ship her to Pakistan and let her set it up there!

I have a sneaking suspicion that no one really knows just WHAT to do about this situation. I believe Mr Blair is trying to figure it out himself but in the mean time if anyone out there has a REAL solution to the problem I'm sure Mr Blair would love to hear it but remember, he's probably got more details and information on the problem than you or I do so think about it very carefully before popping off with some cockamamie idea.

Look at the language: 'the alleged plot to murder thousands', 'the UK's apparently narrow escape', 'the alleged plot to bring down airliners', 'the latest terror scare', 'the alleged bomb plot', 'the alleged terrorists'. Just think what a crafty government could do with 90 days of 'alleged' scaremongering instead of only 28.

It's only a thought, but shouldn't someone check who's got shares in airport security product companies? Cynical, ain't I? I wonder why.

If there was in fact a plot to bomb these aircraft then I have to congratulate the security service in foiling it.In doing so they have proved that they have all the powers they need to foil such plots.

This is a really difficult one for any nation or civilisation to deal with. In countries where the best education is being given, it is obvious that extreme views will be developed also. It is the ability for these views to be put in to practice that should be addressed.

Being not one for worshiping in any fashion, probably through arrogance, I cannot sit down and listen to people who tell me what to do. I would therefore never be a good candidate as a lacky or pawn for any political or extreme party/movement. But how can people sit back and listen to people in a different country from where the issues are and decide to give up their lives for a cause without living the issues - a few trips to Pakistan isn't enough as I too could show you areas where deprivation is rife in the Uk for more than a weeks trip but that is not representative of our country as you focus only on that and not the rest good things that are going on.

It is therefore down to letting people have their views as we are living in a free nation and accept diferences - but in a civilised manner. Protect your neighbour who may be vulnerable from these preachers and propagate peace - this is totally independent of religion.

Some people may think that this is the Orwellian "war is peace, freedom is strength" but personally, I think this is panic by a government that doesn't know how to deal with the out of the norm uncivilised acts we are seeing. No decision for moving 28 to 90 days should be made for some time yet till things are put back in perspective and dealt with responsibly and not through playing on public panic.

I am flying with my family to the US next week so in reply to #8 Grossman, NO - I do not want the smallest possibility of sitting next to these donkeys or even standing the queue for that matter. I would prefer a colouring book and pencils for my kids though!

In practice the police do not make efficient use of 14 days; now they have 28 days they can spin out investigations and interrogations even further, and it would be even worse with 90 days. The people who are being detained are not only innocent until proven guilty in law, many of them may well be entirely innocent in reality - labelling them as "terror suspects" does not mean that they are in fact terrorists. If the police and security services need more resources to speed investigations, give them those resources - don't give them the liberty of innocent people. Scrap the hugely expensive ID cards project, which even the government now admits will do little or nothing to help against terrorism, and use part of that money to greatly increase the budget for the intelligence services.

Having spent a number of years in the Middle East myself, the feedback that I myself was getting from the local population then, was, that the UK was an easy touch for anyone who wished to get into the UK, and we were a bit of a laughing stock.
(note: please read Brian Wilsons article in this edition)

Placing that all to one side, we are now faced with an enemy within our own borders. Our politicians are failing to recognise or most probably already know that we are now progressing to having a state within a state just like we have got at present in Lebanon here on our own shores.

Further we are being dictated to by a minority group, this is a totally unexceptable position.

We in the UK have lost the plot here, and are now pandering to the needs of these minorities with faith schools, and other appeasement critera, which I myself as a British citizen find both insulting and also stimulates further racial tension between ethnic groups.

When people come to these shores to live and to work and build a future for their families, this I find nothing wrong with, but the underpinning position of that is, that you accept our way of life here, do not start bringing with you political and religious hangups, which by the very nature of our British society you think that you can change and or get away with.

The position is most clear in regards to foreign entities arriving on these shores, if you do not like our way of life here in the UK return from whence you came, and if caught in any subversive, religious or political fanaticisim aiming to disrupt or way of life then look forward to being deported, as we have enough to deal with at present sorting out this mess that we are now in.

These radical groups that now exsist within or society are speeding up the process of having here in the UK a police state, with identity cards and other little goodies all brought about by these fanatical religious groups and asylum seekers.

This

Abraham Lincoln had something to say about Liberty did he not?

"What constitutes the bulwark of our own liberty and independence? It is not our frowning battlements, our bristling sea coasts, the guns of our war steamers, or the strength of our gallant and disciplined army. These are not our reliance against a resumption of tyranny in our fair land. All of them may be turned against our liberties, without making us stronger or weaker for the struggle. Our reliance is in the love of liberty which God has planted in our bosoms. Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands, every where. Destroy this spirit, and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors."
--From the September 11, 1858 Speech at Edwardsville

I tend to agree with William (1), Fred (10) etc.
There does usually seem to be a worrying lack of evidence against the suspects, and a strong governmental tendency to wish to restrict our civil liberties.
Michael (13) has hit the nail on the head.

James 22,

Regarding President Lincoln, and also in respect to his most eloquent ideals,history has now moved on, and unfortunatly those ideals which I myself to some extent support, have no bearing on what is happening today, except to act as an appeasement to those who which to destroy the fabric of our society.

Well the burning of the Reichstag worked.
I remember the old TV series "The Guardians". The hope of the insurgent, the rebel, the whatever is to produce a draconian police state that undermines democracy.
At the moment
Them 8
Blair 2
They're winning.
Well Blair isn't Islamic so I guess we can't call him Islamic Fascist.
Fido will have to do....Or how about..Yo!..Blair...

You Brits have a long way to go before you match our ability to trample people's rights here in the U.S.

Our prezidunce can declare anyone at all an enemy combatant and hold that person incommunicado and without charge FOREVER.

I am amaxed at the way politicians, the media and press use the words Nazism or Fascism to describe people that have a different agenda to what they think is correct. After I heard the intellectually challenged George Bush use the phrase Islamic Fascism I looked the word Fascism up in the larger Oxford dictionary at my local library. From the founder of Fascism it gives the definition; a merger between the state, the military and the corporate. Describing the American administration exactly.

One of the truly disurbing features over the past few years has been the willingness of much of the Muslim community and a significant proportion of the "hairbrained left" to believe some of the most ludicrous conspiracy theories ever put forward.

Significant numbers of Muslims in this country still appear to refuse to believe that their co-religionists were responsible for 9/11 and prefer to believe the laughable notion that it was somehow a USA or Israeli plot. What is truly disturbing is that such beliefs seem to find fertile ground even among so called highly educated Muslims and fellow travellers.

This self delusion and the self loathing towards our culture and democracy is what really provides the fertile breeding ground in which terrorists can recruit the gullible. It is what prevents such people facing unpalatable facts such as for example that the horror in Iraq has for a long time been due to Muslim on Muslim murderous barbarity.
It is a refusal to face the truth that if this stopped then our troops would be out of there in the blink of an eye. It is a refusal to face the reality that millions in Iraq and Afghanistan showed by their votes that they value the chance for democracy more than many of their brethren here.

The problem is that we have leaders who have only fought the "war on terror" with bombs and bullets. It is time much greater energy was spent on fighting the war of ideas. Not a war of Christian against Muslim. Not a war of the secular West against the religious East.
No, the war we must fight is a war against stupidity and laziness of thought. It is a war against ignorance. A war against ideologies which blind their adherents to the most obvious realities of the world.

Such a war has been fought before. The founders of scientific thought had to stand firm against the attacks of primitive religious belief in the past when the ignorant refused to accept that the world was not flat, that t

Tempest in a teapot, that's what it is. There is the Isle of Wight. It is perfectly suitable for indefinite detention. I fail to see how limiting the detention of uncharged detainees to 90 days serves HM Gov't. It clogs up the entire apparatus of justice. Far better the uncharged be provided extensive opportunity to reflect upon the grace bestowed unto them by divine providence, that they were delivered unto HM Gov't, rather than that they be afforded any modicum of justice, any respite to their circumstance.

Yes, the United Kingdom requires its own Guantanimo penal facility ! This is the twenty first century. It is nigh time for a new paradigm. Antiquated concepts of justice must be shed. Niceities such as civil liberties have absolutely no place in the 24/7 War On Terror™ which faces all Western Nations.

I have read the preceding comments. The Isle of Wight is a largish place. Certainly it can hold far more than the “more than 20 suspects” of the recent incident. There is no reason whatsoever to drain resources from the nat'l treasury sending naysayers to Pakistan. The Isle of Wight is far closer.

It shall be difficult for the United Kingdom to catch up to the advanced techniques developed by the United States. But I have no doubt that that all of Britian will do their full share. And for the scofflaws, intransigents, and whingers there is plenty of room on the Isle of Wight.

No doubt "moderate" Muslims in the Muslim Council of Great Britain will be among the loudest in denouncing such an extension. However it is worth examining their track record a little more closely.

An MCB affiliate organisation, The Islamic Foundation, have strong connections with the Pakistani Jamaat-i-Islami party, founded by Sayyid Abul A’la Mawdudi (also known as Maulana Mawdudi). The MCB describe Mawdudi as ‘an important Islamic thinker’ and The Islamic Foundation promote his books and ideology. But take note of Mawdudi’s ideology regarding the nature of the Islamic State they desire to bring us to as set out in his book "Islamic State and Constitution."
"A state of this sort cannot evidently restrict the scope of its activities. Its approach is universal and all-embracing. Its sphere of activity is coextensive with the whole of human life. It seeks to mould every aspect of life and activity in consonance with its moral norms and programme of social reform. In such a state no one can regard any field of his affairs as personal and private. Considered from this aspect the Islamic State bears a kind of resemblance to the Fascist and Communist states."

and
"It is a dictate of this very nature of the Islamic State that such a state should be run only by those who believe in the ideology on which it is based and in the Divine Law which it is assigned to administer. The administrators of the Islamic State must be those whose whole life is devoted to the observance and enforcement of this Law, who not only agree with its reformatory programme and fully believe in it but thoroughly comprehend its spirit and are acquainted with its details."
Seems Bush may have a point. Seems unlikely such people would have any compunction about trampling on our rights if they get the kind of state that they want. In that context 90 day detention doesnt sound so draconian to me.

Herr Bookmonger @ 32

Have you ever visited the Isle of Wight? It is not some unpopulated barren wasteland you know. It is a thriving and popular place which is only a hop, skip and a jump from the mainland, just off the south coast of England. May I refer you to:

http://www.iwight.com/

What about one of the Scottish islands? How about the anthrax island, Gruinard, its unpopulated!!!

The Airline Terror Scare got The Israeli Invasion of Lebanon off the front pages in spite of UN Resolutions; I.e.

The UN Pass a Ceasefire Resolution 1701;

The UN Human Rights Council Condem Israel for
"MASSIVE VIOLATIONS of HUMAN RIGHTS"., for the "SENSELESS KILLINGS BY ISRAEL, WITH IMPUNITY, OF CHILDREN, WOMEN, THE ELDERLY" AND TO "IMMEDIATELY STOP MILITARY OPERATIONS AGAINST (THE) CIVILIAN POPULATION"

.. And the Israelis continue to invade Lebanon and their wrath of destruction.

Hi . Feeling in need of a religious fix? Finding that the worlds current religions just dont reach those difficult to reach moral parts. has your prophet or Holy Book let you down recently? Is that stone in the field not answering your prayers any more?

Fear not we have the answer. The worlds newest religion! The Church of All. We have examined all current religions and taken the best bits and discared the rest. Its the newest paradigm in religion. Take a look at what we offer;
1) you can continue to hold your existing relisiogious or anti religious beliefs.
2) We have no Prophet or priests so theres no one to get dissillusioned with.
3) We have no Holy Book so there is nothing to interpret.
4) evryone is a member automatically so you dont need to sign up.
5) We positively refuse to accept any monetary contributions.
Join the Church of All at http://www.thechurchofall.blogspot.com - you know it makes sense!

I find it very frightening that so many people choose to believe and worry about our civil liberties being trampled on when our very lives are on the line! Face it, people. The terrorists wil not stop until they have murdered as money Americans, Brits, and Jews as they possibly can. I couldn't care less if they hold these people indefinately. That is the nature of the world today and these muslim extremists started this war a long time ago, lone before 9/11. WE all have a price on our head and it has nothing to do with Tony Blair or George Bush although many ignorant people take great pleasure in blaming them.
As for the war in Lebanon - they started the fight, kidnapping israeli soldiers. Israel has had to show restraint for too long. When they were being bombed during the first gulf war, they could have unleashed everything they had on Iraq and would have had the right too, but they didn't. Because America and Britain asked them not to. How long should Israel have to allow others to kill their innocent people before they can protect themselves? The Muslim countries do not recognize Israel and therefore want to rid it from the region.
I am sick and tired of people from both our countries and others, choosing to blame Israel, Bush, Blair, the postman, anyone but who the true culprits are. ALL the terrorists have been middle eastern muslims. We know that! As far as I am concerned, they can hold these suspected terorists for as long as they want.
Try and envision what would be the case now if these terrorists were not picked up last week. We would be having a different discussion, although I am sure Bush and Blair would have been blamed for that too!

You can argue the rights and wrongs and quote all the dead people that you wish to quote.
What obviously a lot of you poeple do not realise is:
These persons who wish to commit suicide to prove a point and further the cause of their religion taking precedent over all others.
Don't care if you love them or not.
They don't care, they just want you dead.
They have no means of entering into any format of dialogue with you.They have ceased talking.
What is the point of soldiers fighting on foreign soil to defeat terrorism, when the people of this country show no support for the troops. It would seem that they are apparently hell bent on surrendering this country in their absence.
Remeber how they laughed at the IRA 35 years ago?

What is the way? The way what is!

To all the weeping, wailing, liberal minded so called protectors of human rights. We will follow your plan. We will not violate a persons human rights by picking them up for questioning, we will not detain them for any period of time to allow them to give us the information required to foil a terrorist plot, we will allow them to fly whilst carrying potential bomb making materials, we will allow them to blow commercial aircraft out of the skies, we will not prosecute anyone found to be involved in a terrorist plot. The sad part is you guys will almost certainly not be on the plane. This brings to mind the drunk driver theory- they never kill or maim themselves.

I do think Blair's timing is highly suspicious and the recent scare is probably a set up, however I would lock the buggers up for 180 days....90 days it not enough. Time to show these inbreds exactly who is in charge! If you are going to scud it into them, give them both barrels. After all the grouse season has just started. God bless the Queen. Let's have some Churchillian leadership. Britain for the British

Thats an odd set of beliefs you manage to hold at the one time Crispin. Its suspicious and a set up but lock then up anyway for 180 days. I guess your not a believer in rational thought then? If you are the best example of British I think I need to look out my passport.

1. Loris: go straight to the Taliban, see how you like it. Especially since you're a woman

2. Lincoln suspended some civil rights as he conducted the Civil War (1861-1865). So don't go quoting Lincoln. In wartime, civil rights usually are suspended to some degree. And in case you haven't noticed, the islamic world has long since declared war on the west, not only with words but with deeds. So leave Lincoln out of it. It's historically inaccurate.

3. Timing? the timing, even the liberal media says the timing was all in the hands of the conspirators of this latest plot to kill "Crusaders and Jews."

4. Thank God above for Bush and Blair. In every generation, it seems, some evil monster rises up, and in every generation there is someone with the courage to meet the threat while the quislings yap at their heels. In the West, it's the Prime Minister of Britain and the President of the United States.

Funny how the history of Western Imperialism in the Middle East throughout the 20th Century and the oppression of Muslims in their own countries by pro-western brutal secular regimes doesn't seem to factor into the thinking of some people.

They think Muslims are violent, always have been and always will be. History judges otherwise, showing that it has been the WEST that has been far more oppressive. The fruits of liberty in the UK and US were bought from the blood and treasures of non-white peoples through brutal unrepentant colonialism. Think black slavery, puppet regimes in Latin America and the Mid East, the British Empire in India and the "gifting" of Palestinian land to Jewish foreigners creating modern day "Israel". Don't forget, all these events were perfectly "legal" according to the definition of the day. The Jewish expulsions under Nazi Germany did not violate German law. Evil can be legal.

The present war on terror should be understood NOT as an Islamic invasion - when was the last time a Muslim country invaded a western one or struck without provocation? - but should be understood as the continuation of a new, sinister dark colonialism. This time it's conquest through mass media and economics (think of Europe after WW II and Asia in the 80's onwards), if they dare oppose us then we'll BOMB them into submission, so the thinking goes..

Before that however, they need the support of the voting base in their home countries, and what better way to get it (and your tax dollars to pay for all this warfare) than to stage-manage these "attacks".

If you believe 4 guys were gonna meet in a toilet to mix liquid explosives without getting noticed, and their secret missions had the imaginitive code word "do the attacks now" to start their bombing, I've got a bottle of snake oil to sell you....

See Lou Dobbs of CNN criticize the US Government on air regarding 911 :

Report Unsuitable

Gee, and stupid me believes that Hezbollah lobbing rockets at Israel for six years, then invading Israel, killing one soldier and kidnapping two others, constitutes provocation.

What planet do YOU live on, James?

James,
you are certainly right in quoting a western history of oppression and exploitation. It seems however that you think this provides an excuse - today - for Islamic terrorism.
By that logic we should be worried about Australian suicide bombers descending on us to avenge the historical injustice of us deporting their ancestors. Or perhaps we should be exporting suicidal scotsmen to London to right the wrongs of the Highland clearances? Or perhaps bowler hatted suicide veted englishment to avenge the Roman invasion of Britain.
Personally I prefer to deal with the world as it is today.
It seems your more inclined to believe in an international conspiracy of world leaders to fool their own populations with false reports of terror attacks than you are in the likelihood of suicide bombers on planes.
But I guess you are one of those idiots who believe that 9/11 was all an Israeli plot. Oh yes and the tube bombings were the work of MI5. and the Bali bombings were the work of the Indonesian intelligence agency secretly in cahoots with the international zionist capitalist conspiracy.
I feel no need to defend everything that the west does. Butit doesnt stop me seeing the reality of the dangers that the world faces from militant Islamic fundamentalism.
By the way - if we wanted saddams oil would it not have been a lot cheaper and less trouble for evryone iff we had just bought it?
Theres a very simple solution for Muslims in Iraq who want us out. Stop bombing and shooting each other. Then we would have no excuse to stay. Then if your right we would see the nasty bush blair agenda for what it is - a grab for oil. Personally I think we would be out of there so fast that you would miss it if you blinked.

Lou Dobbs is a CNN quisling. You know CNN, don't you? The company that just hired Fidel Castro's daughter? Well, anything to keep up with Fox News...

James,
is it really so hard to believe that people who are capable of calling for the beheading of people who have published cartoons are capable of plotting terrorist attacks on planes?
I would be very interested to hear what other conspiracy theories you subscribe to.

I've given up on trying to work my way through these comments. This is serious - I don't care about Blair, UK Goverment politics, etc - I just want everyone who climbs on a plane to be able to get off safely at the other end! If that situation requires enhanced security procedures, then politics come a very low second.

I'm not going to defend centuries' old exploitation, conquest, imperial activities, etc. etc. either. But dragging these ancient wrongs out to "prove" something one way or another won't wash. Especially since there's no time limit on how far back into the mists of time anyone can go.

Also, during the same time that the Europeans were colonizing the New World alongside warring with each other, the nations of Africa and the Middle and Far East were busy doing the same.

Unless, since I'm partially a descendant of Celtic sufferers under English rule, you want to pay some reparations to me. Then I eagerly accept your argument, James.

Martha - come over here and I'll give you a big hug and say sorry for what some of my nasty anscestors did to you. there there - feeling better now? Now thats much better than blowing people up on aeroplanes isnt it?

Thank you, oh Great Government, for protecting us from thy terrorists.

Praise be to thee on high who hath bestowed upon us, thy humble servants, this awesome terror of which we are soooo, soooo afraid.

Check out what is being said about the staged events of Thursday.

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/august2006/13080...

All this is is a setup for the next 9/11. And then...

I defy anyone reading this who had a loved one mudered by these monsters to find it in their hearts to forgive, understand etc. They need to be stopped and that won't happen if they see us divided. "Divide and conquer" is the phrase that comes to mind and it works" They are laughing at us and making their plans. We won't even have this forum to express our views if they get their way. Unless you are a radical Islamist they are coming to get you too. What are you going to do and say to them?

God help us from the lying, deceitful politicians led by Blair, Brown and that creep Reid. They have lied, and lied again about Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Lebanon.

There never were WMD. There never was a threat from Saddam Hussein. There was no reason to invade Iraq except for Blair to be able to receive approval from some Americans and for the Americans to get their hands on Iraqi oil. Terrified that their oil-based economy would falter if Saudi Arabian oil dried up due to Islamic fundamentalism they decide the way to secure their source of oil was to invade Iraq to get it.

Blair and all the cabinet that agreed to the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan should be tried for war crimes. It is an illegal war and they should to pay the ultimate cost for starting it.

The terrorists that plan these appalling acts of mass murder are surely evil people. Of that there is no doubt. However one must ask what drives them to such extremes. They don't do it because they hate life, and they don't do it because they just don't like people. They do it because they want to make a point and because they are frustrated. Their frustration is extreme simply because no one seems able to stop those murdering politicians from supporting and ordering the American and British killing machine in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's not the fault of the US & British forces, they are doing as they are instructed. It is the fault of Blair and Bush.

Even Blair wants to ram down our throats the fact that he supports Israel by approving the landing of aircraft at Prestwick - in-transit carrying weapons which would be used to kill Lebanese. There was no need to land at Prestwick, there are plenty of USAF bases around Britain including one about 50 miles from Prestwick at the former atomic bomb base at Machrihanish on the Mull of Kintyre.

Some British Muslims feel passionate about how Britain is treating Muslims in the Muslim world. That does not justify planning to kill or ki

Celia - It's time you started to think instead of spouting nonsense.

90 Days detention without trial will create a breeding ground for terrorism it will encourage Islamic Fascism.Trying to imported the old apartheid system of South Africa when it was controlled by the white minority.

Patrick- No need to get personal. I walked in the peace marches in the 60's and agreed that the catholics in N. Ireland had a legitimate gripe until they started blowing up innocents. This is different and if you don't agree then that's fine but don't dismiss a different opinion as nonsense.

The enemy of the West [East, North, and South] is Dictator Bush and Poodle Blair.

Bush bin Laden prepping for the next 9/11-style attack: Bush Sought to Divert $6 Million for Explosives Detection Technology --Bush Staff Wanted Bomb-Detect Cash Moved 11 Aug 2006 While the British terror suspects were [supposedly] hatching their plot, the Bush administration was quietly seeking permission to divert $6 million that was supposed to be spent this year developing new homeland explosives detection technology.
<snip>
http://www.legitgov.org/

Cheers,
Lori Price

All this ranting about immigrants - the 23 people held aren't immigrants - born and bred in Britain, just like the shoe bomber, just like the bunch of young Canadians picked up last month. Far left, far right - you are all missing the point. 90 days AFTER the fact does bugger all except to further marginalise an already hypersensitive part of our communities. Time to look at the facts, folks... People, even people raised in western society, attending western schools, inundated with western mores, are still being sucked in by "religious" fanatics shouting their gospels of hate - and here you have to include the imams, the so-called Christian right, and the hardline Jews - and furthering what is really the political agendas of these idiots, and brainless bafoons like Dubbya, his faithful sidekick Blair, and now, our wonderous leader Shrub (the wannabe Bush, Harper) get drawn right in - taking us down with them. I do not belittle the horrors of New York, Madrid or London, but I abhor the stupidity, greed and callous disregard for the innocent on all sides that has reduced us to this state. The answers are not simple and will take years to bear fruit - reduce our dependence on fossil fuel, stop the imperialism that decides we know what's best for other countries (and DON'T give me that old Saddam as Hitler saw - doesn't wash), and, hardest of all, try to understand and turn about the alienisation felt by segments of our society - utopia, indeed. A simpler solution would be to ship Dubbya to Osama and let them deal with one another...

People must be charged .Ninety days is too long .Labour should know that !These are ral plots that we must rationally solve.Liberty must not be damaged in the name of liberty or life . May the future Lord Blair reconsider this proposal and unbuckle himself from his arrogance W.. Brown needs to understand if he is to be the pride of Scotland ,he must protect liberty .This United Kingdom must still be a land of liberty. Mary Jo, hey.

Reading the previous comments gives on the impression that Mr Blair, et al will have to rethink the 90 day detention proposal & redraft it before he begins to assert any of the force he has left to push it upon Scots & others in the UK. A sunset [expiration] date for the law may not get Mr Blair's proposal through & it might take many more provisions for due process.
I hope that the USA has a large number of sharp & tough minded advocates of liberty of the ilk of the ever witty Lori Price to control W & end his exesses like Gitmo. Yes, I'm a gringo, Yank to Scots, & share the opinions of Ms Price. We in the USA had our fill of detention schemes in WW II when we placed American born persons of Japanese ancestry into concentration camps.
Ms Price has a growing number of people reading her in the USA. It wouldn't be surprising if her name was on W's enemies list. But that is enough praise for her. She can speak for herself.

I wish to add that the 10:38 "James" Lincoln-spouting was out of context. Lincoln was referring to the loss of liberties caused by terrorism on both sides of the slavery issue - murderous raids in Missouri and "Bleeding Kansas" that threatened the social contract and the liberties the law-abiding residents were threatened with total loss of by terrorists trying to kill them.

Lincoln was in fact calling for harsh measures back in 1858 to end, even with the military units in the area, the terrorist bands and raiders. In another speech Lincoln stated that innocent human life is the ultimate liberty the government is tasked with preserving, higher than all other liberties in priority.

As a poster replied, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus to deal with the insurrectionists and enemy within during the Civil War. Lincoln also famously said that he would not allow the Constitution as a whole to be destroyed by focusing on absolute, maximum preservation of one clause or liberty - by honoring it single-mindedly, without breech, and in so doing, terminating the whole Compact by refusal to address the matters that undermined the whole.

Another favorite American frequently quoted out of context by both the Euro and American radical Islamist defending Left is Ben Franklin. His 1759 Platitude "Those who would give up any precious liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither." Guy was good with words. And many think the "slippery slope" demands absolute honoring of any criminal or privacy liberty in wartime - even if the ultimate liberty, the right to life, is taken away from thousands or tens of thousands by the Islamofascists.

And that Bush, Blair by not doing what Ben Franklin preached, are the true evils who "create Muslim extremism" - because Islamofascists are such liberty-lovers, you know!

Problem is that Ben Franklin was smart enough to know changing times meant changing platitudes.

The government can tell us any story they like as they know we cannot disprove it. Or at least not until the event has long passed.
They are usually more lies than truth, remember Forest Gate.
Funny how so much detail got out into the public domain. Not very helpful in building a case against the suspects.
The spin doctors have been hard at work trying to justify Reid's and others positions and the over the top security measures. If you take an a plane then you have to accept the risks just as you do when you drive a car.

Hey the lot of you! Simplify all the current 'issues' that vex our government, roll them together into one 'Big' issue, then indulge in a bit of magnification. This is what the Blair Government has done. I rather suspect that everyone who thinks Blair is Bush's poodle has it the wrong way wrong: ask youselves... of the Dynamic Duo, which one has the brains and which the brawn?
Read Mike's post #18. It's the only one so-far that is strictly on-topic, and imo absolutely spot-on.

As Ms. Price (#6) has so capably demonstrated, we have our own nut cases here in America.

Anybody who was around for the attacks on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the heroic Flight that crashed in the Pennsylvania field can testify to the deadly seriousness of those raving lunitics.

Tightening security during periods of heightened threat is the only common sense thing to do. Not doing so risks the lives of thousands of innocent people.

lawrence p #61 - apologies I had started typing just before you posted. Join mark #18 in the sensible discussion stakes, at the very least for making a meaningful comparison.
Lori.. although not strictly on-topic (just like me, I know!) essentially I agree with you, but you've not quite got the roles in perspective!

To all the gutless liberals out there who are convinced that is's all a conspiracy,lets see what your reaction is if the animals do blow up an airliner or commit more atrocities. I have no doubt you'll be yelling for the governments to take action then especially if your family members or friends are the ones that are vaporised.

Why don't you all take a holiday in Pakistan,Saudi, Iran or Syria and see if you enjoy it. The liberal idiots could always be deported along with the extremists which I sincerely hope happens and then you will have a legitimate reason to bleat and whinge.

Ron @ 67

Sadly, I fear you are wrong if an airliner was blown to bits in mid air, some of the 'gutless liberals' and islamic extremists would still be directing us to a website conspiracy theory that blames it all on the US and UK governments. They would probably attest that Bush and Blair arranged the whole explosion between them!!

These people get off on conspiracy theories ........ they will now accuse me of believing government propoganda, without ever thinking for one second that they are being manipulated by the clever people behind the websites they want us to look at. Who are they?

Btw: Anyone of whatever race, religion or creed who is not willing to abide by the laws of this country and in peace ............ should leave. Bye Bye!

In the late 1960
;s The Indian people and other cultures were in Uganda, and "EDY AMIN "was in power and he started throwing them out some smart lawyers explained to them that they were entilted to go into Britain because they were promised British subjectity 100 years before when the british had gone into India, Africa, and other countries, and Islands to colonize them. "The Great British Empire" "There will always be an England". "What happened"!. Well because of their promised rights and heritage. The floodgates were open, and I remember orders from Queen Elizabeth that anyone who had a spare room in their house was to take in an indian family who were supposed to be poor, but on the contrary were monetery better off than the poor indigent people in England, and Scotland. So that's how it started and they came pouring non stop ever since. They milked the system for all they could and still do. by claiming for ficticious families to get more money from the goverment .The british public had no voice in those days they had to take a back seat, and today they still have no voice! Scottish people are very family minded and also very tolerent. We have had to put up with a lot through the greed of britain which has come back to haunt us, and become our worst night mare. Back in the late 1970's/early 80's the new immigrants were planning to change England, and pull down the monarchy. Does anyone remember when the Arabs took the british embasy hostage, and they had to send in a "swat team." do you also remember when a young police girl lay dy-ing in the streets with her boyfriend trying to comfort her. Who shot, and killed her why! the "peaceful Muslims"? and they had riots in London with the Pakistanies back then 30 P****s all living in the one house.I could go on but Iwont. because it's to depressing for the older innocent british people who have had to endure all this very strange way of life being forced upon them , and their traditions thrown out t

Anna #68,

Couldn't agree more,mere sheep who can't use the brain matter between there ears.

Reading the comments of people like Abigail and her fan club make me think that we'll never solve the problems of terrorism. The suspects (and they are just suspects at the moment, just like the ricin suspects were until they found out there never was any ricin and just like Jean Charles de Menezes was...) are apparently all British (one even called Donald!). If kicking out people who were born here is the best response we can come up with then how do you think we'll ever make young British Muslims feel loyalty to Britain.

Add these idiotic musings to the idiotic musings of a government that nobody trusts (missing WMD, detention without trial or evidence, aiding and abetting the campaign to raze Lebanon) and the chances of a sensible solution are pretty low.

Well, the warmongers will make propaganda to scared the public, and racists will use that propaganda to justify their hatred and racism towards others.
(Europeans including british) occupied south Africa, we hated the true owners of the land (black Africans), killed them and deprived them of every human rights, yet racists thought that was right. I wonder if William and Abigail no 1 and 3 above respectively; would have said to South Africans white fascicts during the apertheid era that, "You know what, if you hate black African, you guys better go back to Europe, where you belong"

I personally don't support terrorism and I fully agree that any suspects of acts of terrorism should be severely punished once proven guilty. It took us hundreds of years to acquire these civil liberties, and out of a sudden, some loonies want to suspend what we have acquired in hundreds of years.
And if your argument is true, (sending pakistanis to pakistan) I think its pretty much easier to send the Irish to Ireland than Pakistanis to Pakistan. (Unless we have all forgotten IRA).

Ron, Anna, et al. I'm not denying these people are a menace, but I also say that we should know better than just go tubthumping in blissful ignorance of what our governments are using this as an excuse to do to us.
Actually I class myself as a militant liberal.
I note that still nobody has even tried to argue against Mike #18's point, but the pro-Blair faction (and you are NOT neccesary pro-Britain by association) continues to rant.

and their opponents of course

soryy #74 was a poorly expressed afterthought. What I meant was, I am mindful that the opponents of the pro-Balir faction also continue to rant. (Which proves it's working?!)

Anna #68 said "Btw: Anyone of whatever race, religion or creed who is not willing to abide by the laws of this country and in peace ............ should leave. Bye Bye!"

Does that include people who break the speed limit? Or who mis-represent their incomes on a tax return? Or who who make statements which possibly break incitement to racial hatred laws (such as those dreadful comments posted by Irene #69)?

Should the people who aren't willing to abide by these laws all leave the country?
Or is Anna just, in an 'I'm not a racist but' kind of a way, trying to say "lets kick out foreigners"...?

No, Gregor please don't be facetious. I am talking, as you very well know, about people who blow up tube trains, buses and kill innocent people who are going about their business. The Sunday Times stated this morning that an opinion poll among young muslims was taken and one third of them wanted to live under Sharia Law............. Fine they can move to a country where that applies and I wish them bon voyage!

Mike @ 62 I have only just come into this board, great post, erudite and interesting Thanks!

The other interesting thing, Gregor, is that you seem to assume from my post that I am white and of english descent. How do you know that? There are plenty of peace loving people of all races and backgrounds in this country who do not want to kill other people.

If it's in the Sunday Times it must be true!

The Sunday Times probably has more truth in it than one of the conspiracy theory websites, because they are all written by fine, upstanding members of the community with no particular axe to grind are they?

DannyL @ 73 ........ I am not pro Blair just because I do not support the softly softly approach to extremists.

In reply to Ron and Anna posts 67,68 and 70, have you read "The London Bombings : An Independent Inquiry" by Nafeez Mossadeq Ahmed? For in that great piece of research is a reference to "The Covenant of Security". This was an informal agreement between the many Islamic terrorist organizations based in London and MI5. The agreement was that the terrorists could do anything, and literally anything, they wanted as long as British interests were not attacked. In return MI5 woud give the terrorists a place to stay in security, and safety from extradition to the many countries who wanted the terrorists for acts of terror. This is the source for the nickname "Londonistan" given to London by foreign intelligence services.

However, this Islamic terrorism is not the first time that terrorism has been nurtured by London. During the 19th Century the Freemasonic British Agent Giuseppe Mazzini ran a terror network called "Young Europe" whose aim was to encourage the members of other rival empires to Great Britain on the European continent to rebel against their rulers and claim independence, thus leading to the break up of those rival empires and leading to British supremacy. This was done through terrorism. "Young Russia" was part of this and a splinter group assassinated several Russian leading politicians, including the Tsar! The Bolshevik Revolution, which was an extension of this desire of Great Britain to unseat and destabilise the Russian monarchy, can be proved to be "made in Britain and the USA" through reading "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" by Antony C Sutton, which follows the money for the revolution.

So before you and all your ilk ship us all off to some remote island let's first look at what our good 'ol boys in Vauxhall are doing, for it is they who created Wahhabism through Hempher in the early 19th Century, and have a proven track record of creating and dealing with

Jim, Livingston said Obviously the Governments intelligence must be working as they were able to foil this attempt, therefore I am sure they know who the culprits are.--just like the guy shot in the head in the tube--just like the guy shot in the arm-its a wonder they did not say it was self inflicted

Grossman is certainly well named; perhaps he and Abigail can set up house together and spare the rest of civilization. What a condescending moron. Many of the others are accurate in what they're saying and feeling. Very little of what Bush and Blair are doing is going to be effective. And, worse than that, they DO want to strip away the very civil/human rights that America, at least, was founded upon. So put your scary, personal attitudes where they belong, and put a sock in it. We have much bigger problems than terrorists from other cultures and countries; we have ignorant, fear- and ignorance-driven, so-called leaders running American and England. THAT is our biggest problem. And Abigail, dear, did it occur to you that those "immigrants" immigrated in order to infiltrate for nefarious purposes, rather than for jobs? [duh]. Education is a wonderful thing. ...

To me, those who say that they wanna live in shariah law are just fanatics who are trying to deceive whomever they worship. Lets look at Omar Bakri Mohammed, the preacher of Hatred. He also claim to have passion with shariah law, but when Lebanon started to be bombed by Israel, the first thought he had is comming back to Britain and not going to Saudia Arabia where shariah law applies.
Someone who truly loves shariah law, whether he was born in britain or not, would not be living in Britain.

The question is; Regarding the lies which have been told by this Government in the name of intelligence, whould anyone hold me guilty of having doubts on anything I hear from the same Government in the name of the same intelligence?
Truely the Government may have foiled a deadly terrorist attack as we are being told. But also, this may also be another lie to pursuade the public to support whatever the Government is up to.

Has anyone called upon the 'Muslim Community' to reign in these morons?
Do the ratbags do the dirty work while the sanctimonious hide their glee behind 'burquas' on their way to the bank or to get the free handouts of a socialist state?
If self immolation is so rewarding,why aren't the imams the first in line?
To those who don't like 90 day's detention, how about this,-don't make bombs!.

Martin, Bangkok remain calm,keep taking the tablets,and do not use the computer again till your carer says its ok to do so

RE: Josh #15, apparently, you don't know the definition of a dictator; or the underlying principals of the United States. So, don't show your stupidity quite so blatantly. By the way, how's life at the military base?

One poster said: "With regards the 90 day arrests, we have accomodated these civil liberties nuts for too long. In these perilous times, anybody with nothing to hide should OK the new measure."

You are foolish to assume these misleaders play by any given set of rules, including the rule of law. Criminals go to jail everyday-but we charge them, try them and convict them. These people are all for eliminating lawful steps that insure ours a free society.

People like you are all too willing to give up their freedom-lucky for you most of us see the what is happening. You can't/won't stop giving up your rights to these thugs-but the rest of us who can think beyond black/white will stop their tyranny and change the policies which are responsible for genuine terrorist attacks.

Yes ,we had the detention camps and unfortunately , my heroes FDR and Earl Warren supported them. We liberals do support liberty and safety . They go hand in hand. Liberal bashing is so arrogant! What strawmen. Liberals like FDR and Truman got us through the Cold War ,with liberty and safety in mind . And as far as I'm concerned right-wing wingnuts want a sharia of their own . They want to use the Buy-bull as a basis for law . They want to handicap gays and enshrine government mandated prayers . They want so much we liberals have to oppose for the sake of liberty . Oh, they like the anarchy of small govenment ; they call that liberty.

We've already got the anti-terrorism act with 28 days plus extensions, going on to 90 days is a slippery slope of giving away hard fought for rights too easily. Once in these laws are tricky to remove, and who knows what interpretations may be applied to use this proposed law against the public. A previous prime minister refered to Nelson Mandela as a terrorist, and Ghandi wasn't exactly beloved by the British Parliament of the time. Knee jerk laws are never the way forward.

We British are far too generous to the needs of others by opening up our borders to the political and religious refugees of the world - we are known overseas as a soft touch.

Now is time to come up to speed with reality and introduce new detention laws that our security need and want to protect us - six months or a year if so needed, this would have absolutely no effect on the lifestyle of everyday law abiding people.

Also, bring in the identity card system. It would at one stroke assist in tracking down anti social behaviour, abuse of the excellent British social security system and put some resistance in the path of illegal immigrants. People who are against the id card system must have something to hide.

We live with these rules in China and they don't effect genuine people's way of life at all. If the governmntreally want to assist the security people they might like to implement Chinese style capital punishment for the following offenses - carrying a fire arm, dealing in drugs, attacking a police officer, stealing government assets and money and rape. Think about it Britain - the world has moved on.

Our great socialist leader Tommy "monkey man" Sheridan has the answer to all this.
The Great Leader (Peace be upon him) in his book "Fourty great places for a foursome" says that the answer to the worlds problems is to make love not war (man) and to always ensure you have a packet of three in your pocket and dont give your real name at the door to the club. Praise be to the great leader and his wisdom.
The Great Leader also tells us that it is all a great conspiracy ; there was no 9/11; men did not land on the moon; there was no plot to blow up planes and he did not dip his wick with a naughty sex columnist from the News of The World - all of it was a conspiracy by the evil bush/blair/zionist/capitalist/industrial/military/neoconservative conglomerate and simply designed to get them re-elected and take away our basic human rights to have sex with as many people at one time as we want.

So there it is. As always the Great Leaders of the left and the PC "mujahadeen" fifth columnists have the answer to all the worlds problems.

Janis in London - Thanks for the compliment. All too often, people chant some slogan or dredge up some historical quote like it is Gospel - that binds us all to unquestioningly obey the slogan or quote - without really understanding the origin or context of the quote or slogan...which may indeed have an utterly different meaning, or was rubbish then and is rubbish now.

======================
I hate to speculate into the future, but a believe a train wreck is coming for the multi-culti, post-mod, nation-loathing, faux-pacifist Left as well as the Islamofascists.

The Left has invested enormous intellectual and emotional capital into giving Muslims the idea that they are the oppressed, the dispossed justly angry at the smug capitalist oppressor class and that notions of nation, patriotism are outmoded notions just waiting for a just, One-world government.

Radical Islamists go - great! We have just the one-world government that will handle oppressor races quite nicely, and replace those outmoded ideas of citizenship and loyalty to any obsolete nation-state.

The Left also served as enablers. Many young Islamic men feeling their oats get tremendous power rushes from groveling Lefties that come to "apologize to them" for Israel, the Bush-Hitler, having blocked a Muslim muggers boot with their face and thus marred the shine. I believe many that glory in violence, terror - would not be in that dangerous place if they had not been educated by the Left to hate the society they were born in, and not felt the swelling power of Leftist grovelers mincing their way to angry Muslim youth saying the fault is with others, not them.

As signs that 40-year old cherished programs of the Left - are part of the Islamofascist problem - expectedly - they have "exploded" in typical Lefty outrage! It's Iraq! It's not wearing helmets that is to blame from dying of a fractured skull bashed by a Muslim mugger. It's Blair! It's police insens

When I read "Blair to force through 90-day detention
", I thought it was for Prescott?!

95 Sed quis.................

Poor old Prezza ......... it looks as if John Reid has taken over the hot seat and 2 Jags is looking more irrelevant than ever.....Never mind he can go off and play croquet, or something, with a clear conscience!

Mike - Pity that I cannot make sense of what you have written. I'm sure you meant to say something important but it's gone straight over my head. It must be the language.

Mike - I think I agree with you but like Patrick I find that your verbosity somewhat obscures the clarity of your otherwise eloquent loquasciousness.

OK Anna #79 and #81. Now that we know what you variously aren't and might not be, it would be interesting to know what you really are. In exchange for which, although still offtopic, I must answer in my own case. I say this in the light of being (1) unconvinced of anything I hear from anybody in the media about what either side did or said, whether they really meant it, or if said whether it is actually truth of hypothesis. Or come to that 'lies, damned lies, or statistics' (2) A passionately anti-Blair non-pacifist who has every confidence in the secutirty forces on an as-is basis which I assume is the sentiment underlying Mike Argyll's #18, and which continues to remain unchallenged despite its absolute relevance (3) A pro-Death Penatly (for some of 'your' criminals, and not specifically for Muslims unless they are such criminals) militant liberal who is about to vote Conservative for the first time since getting the vote in the early 70s: or, more accurately for voting for David Cameron.
Why (3)? The negative. I trusted the LibDems until Ming's right-wing coup made them fairly and squarely alt-Labour and Blair's puppets. The positive. I believe he WILL provide a strong stance against those who need stood-on, Muslim or otherwise, and that he will additionally will promote a positive atmosphere in our land for the first time since the first Wilson administration. Who knows he might even get rid of the 'religious hatred' rubbish that Tony introduced as a smokescreen for his own prejudices and that has generated so much religious hatred in its own right. Why mention all this? Yes I have an agenda too. Hasn't everyone?
To paraphrase A.Hitler: if you are not anti-Blair you by default Pro-Blair.

Further to Chriss #72. I hope to God that the US doesn't repatriate all their right-wing extremists of British descent. That is where we would end up. Doesn't bear thinking about.

Karen #84. Exquisitely put, but I'm afraid I am spoken-for(!)

96. Anna

I have always found John Reid to talk a good fight but to fail to see actions speak louder than words. Recently he has had a good run, which i feel proverbially is is just idling whilst propelling him closer to hitting the fan.

The first I remembered him was in his failing to entirely address corruption at Glasgow Caledonian University when a constituant brought it to his attention.

Recently the changes in his career path have permitted him to move on before he needed to become accountable for any long term decisions.

His new remit should be safe for a while too, given the state the Dept was in when he took the helm.

However, in this mans past there have been numerous questions raised, inlcuding...

His association and holidaying with the war criminal Radovan Karadzic.

The Observer entapping his son using his father for lobbying access and Reids offence at the then first minister saying there should be an investigation.

Despite being a minister for 6 years, his implicit admission at the state the health dept in 2003.

His "its not mine" claim when cannabis was found in his home - i dont see courts accepting this defence from far more honest people!

His being Paxmanned.

However he is meant to be one of the smartest in the party - its just a pity that intelligence seems directed for his own ends rather than the benefit of his country.

This isn't about revenge attacks for past injustices against Muslim countries - I'm not saying that at all. This is about a CONTINUATION of the past injustices against Muslim countries, but in a new format.

You believe Muslims are responsible for all these acts? Since GW came into power, we had 911 and 7/7, major acts on western soil never done before. Coincidence? Or setup? Attackers were "Saudi" but they bomb Iraq and Afghanistan - one with a crippled military, the other with people living in mudhuts. Who is the terrorist?

The evidence against govt complicity in 911 is mounting. There's also growing doubts about the motivations and backgrounds of the 7/7 bombers. People realize that a govt that ignores its own people who protested against the Iraq war starting, doesn't give a crap about its own people. Who is the terrorist?

You ask people to live in Iran, Syria, Taliban etc...did you know EVERY one of these countries is on the US/UK sh*tlist? Did you know any Muslim country that does not explicitly align itself with the West is targeted through economic/military attacks? For 1 bil Muslims, there ain't alot of Shariah out there folks! Thanks to YOUR governments. It's not to protect YOU. It's to protect THEIR corporate interests in pliable markets and cheap resources. Did you know Saudi sells the US oil at $1 cheaper than to any other country in the world? That's coz they have them by the balls!

This latest incursion into Afghan/Iraq and now Iran (coming soon) is about oil. Look at your dusty maps and see how nicely they all line up with shared borders. Coincidence? Who is the terrorist now?

The title of the article has a marvellous ambiguity.

However, it seems to me that we have failed to realise Blair's intention of stripping us of all our freedoms.

He never learns; he never changes his opinion; he has the mind-set of the fanatic.

90-day detention will be the first stage; then British Guantanamos will be his next goal.

John Reid will loyally (?) assist him. Be ready for more nocturnal broadcasts.

Sed quis #102. Thanks you actually made me laugh (with you not at) at no less than three points in that post. I'd like to pull you up on a minor point of semantics, to wit the difference between smartness and intelligence. In my time I've seen many thickwits run cowboy building companies, criminal gangs and the likes with nothing but street-wisdom. When a barrowboy who can't rub two sentences together makes a mistake with the change how come it's never in the punter's favour?

Whoops there goes another rubbertree plant!

One gets suspicious when this government creates such dramas. My feeling is that there is some kind of misdemeanour by the PM that has led to this distraction being created and dramatised. What has he been doing? Are the police getting close to some scandal or felony he has committed? The other thing I think about, when it comes to sensationalising these events, is Hitlers Germany. Before Hitler turned Germany into a nazi dictator state, he proclaimed there were national security issues. Historically this came on the back of some very frightening and depressing times for the German people. Hitler got his way and plunged Germany and the rest of the world into some very dark times. I'm beginning to wonder if some scare mongering is going on here to create a world ripe for the new world order to have their way. Also the shipping of arms to further exacerbate the situation in the middle east going on, and we are getting involved because of our governments lack of wisdom and vision. This in the middle east is yet another distraction to stop us from seeing what is really going on with the world banking system (owners of the banks being members of the illuminati or new world order...check this out on the web and please keep an open mind). The only way to stop all this is to stand up and say no more. Demand all wars and weapons of mass destruction being stopped in this world. It just takes one looney to press the button...smitten with anger or greed. Greed is at the root of all of this. Why else would people like Tony Blair change allegiance so often. Look at his eyes....he cannot look directly at the camera. He looks very aged. Remember how Hitler looked before he took the cyanide, when he completely lost control of his senses. The real terrorists own the banks (not governed by the people, but foundations exempt from popular control, and they set the interest rates). Who owns the banks? What is the most powerful bank on the planet? (could it be the Bank of England?) F

a coin dropped in a bottomless cup, helps no one.

Anna I believe much of what you say but realistically don't expect all fighting to cease, ever. Petty little shootouts aren't necessarily always 100% bad, in that they make room for a burgeoning population by pruning out the least fit, and as long at it's only hand-to-hand without the use of conscripts you can take the line that anyone who joins the army knows the risks, ergo it improves not just the fitness but also the intelligence of the species. WMD is another issue of course, as are any warcrimes on the one hand and The Rt. Hon. Anthony Blair on the other. On those I'm with you all the way, although maybe we should allow for the possibility that WMD is some kind of Darwinian device to provide for rapid extinction of a species that is doomed anyway.
Back to the Blair comparison. For the benefit of the others... In the very early days Hitler got himself onto the political with the help of some influential Jews, homosexuals, and intellectuals, got himself elected with the usual Jam-Tomorrow stuff and then cranked-up the 'we are under threat' argument then 'forgot' to call another election. Having already openly turned on the Jews, he offered cabinet posts to people from the other groups already mentioned plus some other minorities only to set about discrediting them with corruption scandals and the likes, before associating them with the 'Jewish Conspiracy' pretty much by blurring the boundaries and some prodigious subject hopping. All that was left to do was magnify the whole 'single' issue and he had a terrified populace eating out of his hand. Then dissenters were automatically traitors de facto and could be eliminated. I shall leave the readers to draw their own comparisons between this little horror story and any present day events real or alleged.
There is I think a slight problem with some of your comparison though. Part of Hitler's sales pitch involved the Judaism of a significant number of bankers and bank owners, whereas here and now the ban

Lets get some perspective. The possibility of dying on an aircraft, even taking into consideration these wild assumptions on the terrorist threat, is nothing, when you take into consideration, the number of people dying as a result of the ignorance we are fed about drugs. Firstly, the pharmaceutical industry are plying us with multiple pills and potions which ARE ACTUALLY killing 1,000s of people a year from adverse reactions (read 'Health Myths exposed' by Shane Ellison) Peope are taking these toxic substances as a cure for what is really malnutrition. Yes, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity and depression are results of malnutrition and other physical stress. Pills are not the answer. Food is devoid in real nourishment, leached out by processing, riddled with chemical toxins and hydrogenated fats. Even our salt is second rate processed crap. We are told we need to avoid fat because it's bad for you and salt too. Real salt is neccessary for vital human functions and we are ill because we do not get enough real salt. Real salt is sea salt full of minerals. Hydrogenated and processed oils, rapeseed, soya and canola oils are toxic to humans. Good organic lard and unpasteurized butter, ghee, coconut oil, fish oil and all cold pressed oils other than those above, chicken fat and meat dripping are all health giving. We are brainwashed about food and submit to disease, then use pills from big pharma to help, but these just shorten our life span. More people are dying from these and big bucks wants to keep it that way, for profits sake. Greed is killing us and our planet. So much goodness around us, all we need to do is change what we do and check it up. We are more readily killed by the synthetic monsters created by the pharma and food, than street drugs, which if clean cause much less harm. Cures from vitamins and plants are suppressed in favour of pharma. Doctors who used to get training in nutrition, now rely almost totally on pharmac

I personally think that these Pakistanis born in England should spend 10 - 15 years in a British jail, and then deported to Pakistan, to see and live what their parents escaped from, and see how long they would last over there. The intelligence sources in place in the UK, USA and Canada are doing a number one job to be able to nail these people before they do any real damage. Let women run the country for a change--they'd put these terrorists in their place, in jail, where they belong.

GREGOR 76 in answer to post 69. It's unfortunatly factual. All those people now own the post offices and most of the dairys in Scotland , and England . Not bad for people who were supposed to be poor to begin with?. The truth always hurts. Having said that the Indian people are easy to get on with and have assimilated into the country with no problems Even they dont like the "P****S? Pakistanis.)" I have worked with Indian people in New York, and they were some of the nicest people I have ever met and worked with. There is good in all cultures but you just have to find it.. "Gregor where were you in the early 60's " "Were you even born then?"

In the words of Benjamin Franklin
"He who would sacrifice essential liberties for a temporary increase in security deserves neither."

Sorry I inadvertently renamed you Anne #106.
Anne #109 (the same Anne or not?) The politics of food and the obesity diabetes depression myths? Don't get me started! well, not here anyway. Suffice to say I DO see the connection.

When I get back from my holiday, you'll all be under arrest!

lori price: #6---take your twisted attitude & GET OVER IT!!! no one here in the USA wants to hear your tripe anymore, so your exporting it. the other countries have their share of the "twisted minds" & i'm sure they don't need to hear from you.

lori #6 you can still write to us, this IS an open forum (afaik). It may fair to say your tone is unhelpful, but that doesn't make you wrong.

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test. The events are actual cuts from past history. They actually happened!!! Do you remember?

-1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3.During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6.In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7.In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was

12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremist s mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. 2004 - Spain Railway bombings.
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

AND NOW !

14. 2005 London Railway bombings
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone because of profiling.

Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel doubly ashamed of themselves - if they have any such sense.

As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it, "Stupid is as stupid does."

Come on people wake up!!!
Keep this going. Pass it on to everyone in your address book.
Our Country and our troops need our support and prayers.