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Brown humiliates Alexander

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Published Date: 11 May 2008
WENDY Alexander was ridiculed by her political opponents last night after she was ordered by Gordon Brown to "close down" any further discussion of an independence referendum in Scotland.
In emergency talks on Friday following the Scottish leader's astonishing call for a referendum, the Prime Minister told Alexander the issue should be ditched.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal the Prime Minister told Alexander twice in the past few days that he did not support her proposal to force an referendum on Scotland, to "call the SNP's bluff".

But Alexander chose to ignore her mentor and pressed ahead anyway, even claiming publicly she had his support.

The affair has left a deep scar in relations between the two former allies, who spent more than 24 hours over Friday and Saturday trying to piece together a fresh statement declaring they were now in agreement.

This was supposed to draw a line under the matter, but Alexander faced further mockery by political opponents last night after conceding in the statement that her hopes of forcing a snap referendum in the next year were now dead in the water.

The SNP says it will hold the referendum in the autumn of 2010. Meanwhile, Alexander's other option – to get Brown to rush through a referendum bill at Westminster – has been closed off after the Prime Minister told her he would not countenance such a plan.

And in a further setback for Alexander, the former First Minister Henry McLeish said the affair had shown "contempt" for the Scottish people, and he accused her of leading Labour "into the worst of all possible worlds". Labour MSPs also privately warned they may rebel against Alexander by voting against a referendum bill. But Labour donor Willie Haughey said he backed Alexander on the issue, declaring it was time to give Scots a vote.

The extraordinary chaos facing Labour began on Sunday when Alexander told Alex Salmond on BBC to "bring it on", arguing she was not afraid of a referendum. Aides then revealed that she backed an immediate referendum on independence. Alexander said on Tuesday that she was even considering introducing a bill of her own. However, the plan fell into farce after Brown failed to back the plan for a referendum on Wednesday. Then, on Thursday, Alexander hit back, declaring that she still wanted it to go ahead.

Scotland on Sunday understands that two days before Alexander went public with her U-turn, Brown told her that he could not support a plan for a referendum on independence. Nevertheless, Alexander went ahead.

Then, in a phone conversation on Tuesday night, after Alexander's U-turn had been made public, senior Whitehall sources insisted that the Prime Minister had again repeated his refusal to back his protege. Despite that, Alexander then publicly insisted that Brown was in favour of the plan.

A Whitehall source said: "Gordon told her on the Friday before she went public that he wasn't going to back it at Westminster.

"Then, on the Tuesday, he quite clearly told her that 'You must not say that I am backing this course of action'."

However, hours later, on Newsnight Scotland, Alexander insisted that Brown did indeed back the plan. Last night, Alexander's spokesman said: "Wendy had extensive discussions with senior colleagues down south and they hadn't made clear to her that she was going in the wrong direction."

On Friday, Alexander cancelled public speaking engagements after Brown insisted that they come up with a strategy to draw a line under the affair.

Yesterday, after more than 24 hours discussion, they issued parallel statements.

Alexander declared: "The case for a referendum to demonstrate support for the Union has been increasingly discussed in Labour circles. The Scottish Labour Group at Holyrood united around calling the SNP's bluff this week."

She went on: "However, as a minority party in the Scottish Parliament, Scottish Labour alone cannot force the SNP to act. The SNP have now made clear they will block any referendum bill Labour might have introduced . . . the SNP have therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish Parliament."

She added: "The SNP can never again claim that a 'unionist cabal' is denying Scotland a voice. The SNP party colour is yellow and we now know why."

An aide to Gordon Brown said: "Wendy Alexander is a first-rate leader of the Labour party in the Scottish Parliament. Together with her, and her team, Gordon Brown will continue to defend the UK and Scotland's place in it."

Henry McLeish last night savaged the handling of the affair. "This is the worst of all possible worlds. We have marginalised the Calman Commission (the body studying more powers for the Scottish Parliament), confused the Scottish public, taken the Liberals and the Tories out of the equation and seemed more enthusiastic than the SNP to have a referendum."

He added: "Labour supporters and activists will find it difficult to work out what on earth is going on. It's hard to understand how Labour could get itself into this position. What about the public? They have been treated with contempt."

And there were signs last night that some of Alexander's MSPs were beginning to rebel. One said: "Labour voters deserve better than this. Those who kept with us through recent difficulties don't deserve this. Wendy needs to examine herself to see what contribution she is making."

Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie hit out: "This must go down as one of the most extraordinary, humiliating press statements ever issued. Wendy Alexander tries to defend her indefensible actions … by re-writing history, stretching credibility and taking the public for fools."

SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon MSP said: "Words like 'laughing stock' do not even begin to reach the extent of the Labour party's disarray and humiliation. Do they seriously believe that everyone will now believe it was all a cunning plan? Labour in Scotland are now just ridiculous and plummeting to new depths of absurdity as well as in the polls."

Nicol Stephen, of the Liberal Democrats, said: "There are fundamental question marks over the honesty of what the Labour Party is saying."

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1

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 00:07:54
Nicol Stephen, of the Liberal Democrats, said: "There are fundamental question marks over the honesty of what the Labour Party is saying."


Does it smell nicol?

Given that the lib dems were in coalition with them and also the tories supported them in the callman commsion i think that there are fundamental question marks over the wisdom of voting lib dem or tory now.
2

James Annand,

11/05/2008 00:10:33
Wow. This just keeps getting more and more surreal. What on Earth was she thinking? What's depressing is that Nicola Stugeon will have been proven to be correct when she said that Wendy's position is untenable.

I'm really gonna miss her.
3

whitegold,

Shire 11/05/2008 00:17:52
Wendy keeps on getting caught out telling untruths in public.
4

Angus Ogg,

11/05/2008 00:20:22

Wendy is going to resign within the next ten days.

This will be the second time - the first was after a stormy meeting with her leader on 4th May 2002.

You read it here first.
5

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/05/2008 00:20:43
UUendy was calling the SNP's bluff? The SNP weren't bluffing,UUendy was and her's was well and truly called.

This woman is just such a farce. That phenomenal intellect of hers is so suited to writing fairy tales for children.
6

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/05/2008 00:28:52
There has been some good come out of all this, never again can Scottish Labour deny that they have to ask the permission of head office in London before they do or say anything!

This brilliant cartoon sums up Wendy's position best

http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/uk
/scotland/article390
4248.ece
7

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/05/2008 00:30:39
What must be really galling for Labour in Scotland is that this Woman was chosen as their leader unapposed.

No wonder they all back her, they are all as equally guilty as she is!
8

,

11/05/2008 00:31:26
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9

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/05/2008 00:32:32
Just think, if things had been a little different last May this bunch of clowns would be running Scotland.

Right into the ground!
10

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 11/05/2008 00:36:41

I find this the most amazing statement of all: 'Last night, Alexander's spokesman said: "Wendy had extensive discussions with senior colleagues down south and they hadn't made clear to her that she was going in the wrong direction."'

Am I reading this right? Is he really defending Wendy by saying: She didn't understand her orders?
11

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 00:39:53
I wonder if the application form to join the labour party looks something like this

Are you mad
1. yes.....
2. no.........
3. my psychologist doenst think so.........


Do you support a referendum on independence

1. yes
2. no
3.yes
4.no
5.yes
6.no
7. only if gordon says so.

will you give us all your spare cash so we can do whatever we think is will win us votes at this particular moment in time

1. yes
2. yes







12

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 00:41:45
11. no i think what they meant was we didnt shout
F Off loud enough or long enough.
13

Richardinho,

11/05/2008 00:42:42
Wendy's original position of calling an early referendum, or forcing the SNP into doing so, was a legitimate one.
Her problems are due to the fact that she is not a leader at all, but actually a very minor figure within the UK labour party and completely beholden to Gordon Brown.

The voters of Scotland now have a choice between the SNP who are only answerable to them, or the Labour and unionist party who are merely puppets of their Westminster master.
14

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 00:43:18
13 the establishment have rules.

OOPS someone forgot to tell wendy.......
15

Marky Bhoy,

Confused 11/05/2008 00:45:14
I dont know who but Either Brown or Alexander have been blatantly lying since Wednesday .

One of them has to go and I suspect it will be the wrong one .
16

Richardinho,

11/05/2008 00:46:47
I wouldn't feel too sorry for Wendy. Being a good unionist, I'm sure he enjoyed being ordered around by London.
17

Loki, Death Angel,

The Dark Side 11/05/2008 00:48:48
If the labour party was a dog you would have had it put down. Keeping it alive now is just prolonging the agony as a dignified end is never going to happen

Loki
18

,

11/05/2008 00:52:30
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19

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 11/05/2008 00:59:35

I think we are heading for a critical moment ( A SDP ) moment if you like

When Labour MSP'S realise that the party they represent is not what they signed up for
20

,

11/05/2008 01:04:39
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21

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 01:16:01
22 hiya fakey feasgar math.

woo hoo i have a fakey again.

That means i have really annoyed someone brilliant.
22

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 01:19:22
22 by the way

gonni pay attention ya totty i would never say intellectual minnows i prefer totty and eejit. like yerself for example.
23

,

11/05/2008 01:20:59
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24

Edwards Legend,

11/05/2008 01:25:49
I am a Labour voter but this woman is not fit for the job !
I watched her performance on channel 4 the day of the ‘ bring it on’ - chav style declaration and it was abysmal.She really makes me cringe .
I believe the SNP are happy to see her stay in the job as her ailings are masking their own shortcomings at present .
I am now convinced she is 'Agent Alexander' undercover Nat

25

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 01:26:22
Hi roger hows you.

Still pissed off then. Its really nice to know that you are seething with anger. Keep it up.

26

,

11/05/2008 01:28:05
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27

The Moog,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 01:31:39
Google Wendy Alexander - pages from the uk and you'll notice this:

Scotsman.com News - Wendy Alexander quits
http://news.scotsman.com/newsfront.aspx?SectionID=7442

But the link leads to a blank page.

Is a resignation in the air?
28

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 01:33:46
28 well there is really no answer to that so i wont bother.

sigh....... another unionist who doesnt know who they are or what they stand for.
29

Richardinho,

11/05/2008 01:35:30
#22

'Donald Dewar was actually quite bright. Such a pity that he was surrounded by intellectual minnows.'

Even an apparent Labour party supporter regards the entire Scottish Labour party as being 'intellectual minnows'!
30

,

11/05/2008 01:37:53
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31

candysticks,

11/05/2008 02:17:27
Surely the headline here is wrong. Shouldn't it be, "Wendy Humiliates the Scottish voter"?

She and the Scottish Labour Party appear to think that the voters / public are thicker than pig s**t.

Does she not realise that most Scots are literate? That we have access to information and can come to our own conclusions based on published documents?

She's an embarassment to our country and she and GB - or Shrek, as my children refer to him - should both resign immediately.

Not that I can propose valid alternatives to either, but they are clearly the laughing stock right now.


32

Vivas,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 02:56:00
Andrew Rawnsley is another smart cookie who sees the writing on the wall..

"Gordon Brown's reputation has collapsed on every front"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/11/polls.gordonbrown
33

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 11/05/2008 03:19:25
#22 karinxxx claims that "Alex Salmond knows that Scotland will never gain Independence because the economic mechanics are unworkable."

She is obviously unaware that the UK government has been lying about Scotland's financial situation for more than 30 years. She should take a look at
http://tinyurl.com/2ga3t5



34

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/05/2008 03:36:18
So which of the hapless Labour MSP's next gets a turn at being Gordon Browns glove puppet?

After the last week it is obviously going to be someone who doesn't think they can think for themselves.

Lucky for Wendy the Elections for the European Parliament are coning up soon. Son they can slot her into a safe seat and tell her its a promotion for all her good work.

I wonder if you asked her again about her performance would she still think its 10 out of 10?
35

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 11/05/2008 03:41:58
Unlike the smell of of something gone off, Unionists, I smell the sweet smell of INDEPENDENCE running through our country. It is here Ladies and Gentlemen, let's take it and have them BEGONE FOREVER!!! FREEDOM, FREEDOM FREEDOM.Never stop untill we get it and hand it over to our CHILDREN!
36

Willie Macleod,

Wick 11/05/2008 04:09:24
#40 If you want to talk about Freedom

There are many in this world who are not free Scots are not amongst them We are free we do not live in bondage and fear as many do
37

Guga II,

Rockall 11/05/2008 05:41:51
It just helps prove the point that the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) are the running dogs and lackeys of London. They are not there to act for Scotland, only to do what London tells them.

Obviously Wendy slipped her leash for a wee while, but they'll soon have her back under control, and doing what she's told.

Labour in Scotland are really quite disgusting as they are such a lickspittle, spineless lot.
38

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 11/05/2008 05:50:22
Brown really is a slimy piece of work. At lease Wendy gets it. Scots don't want to be Limeys anymore.
All that's standing in the way is the Labour Party's lust for power.
39

donald,

glasgow 11/05/2008 05:50:54
U Bbendies in retreat.
40

Dooogie,

HIGHLAND 11/05/2008 06:28:38
The Labour colours are RED and now we know why - it's to match the colour of their faces now that Wee Wendy is right in the Brown stuff.
41

Dragonlord,

11/05/2008 06:58:36
Brown, Wendy,Labour caught out in down right LIE, who now can trust them to run a country?
42

steve 1511,

aberdeen 11/05/2008 07:36:08
wee wendy the ned,slapped down by broon the liar,
43

I am Legion, for we are Many..,

ALBA 11/05/2008 07:45:56
THE ODDS ARE TUMBLING ON THE QUESTION OF INDEPENDENCE. WHAT WILL THEY BE DOWN TO NEXT WEEK?
WILLIAM HILL:-
We currently offer 200/1 that Scotland will become independent by the
end of May 2012; 50/1 before the end of May 2017 and 14/1 that it
happens within fifty years.
We are not offering odds at the moment on a yes/no vote.

Paddy Power.
Dial-a-Bet: From Ireland: 1800 721 821 From UK: 08000 565 265

2/5 to vote No to full independence.
7/4 to vote Yes to full independence.
12/1 to achieve full independence 2013
6/1 to achieve full independence 2018
5/2 to achieve full independence 2023

44

Danny Mather,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 07:49:07
#29 interesting find, perhaps they are using it as a placeholder for the expected update to the story later today. Or maybe it#s just been left up there since the last time, ready to be padded out with her latest tale of woe.

that link again to Wendy's resignation

http://news.scotsman.com/newsfront.aspx?SectionID=7442
45

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:04:28
54 and strangely 55

You honestly think that either will be voted in again?
46

,

11/05/2008 08:04:30
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47

kimba,

11/05/2008 08:12:10
52.What a good idea,but anything the westminster government says is cr-p as far as the opinionated karinxxx is concerned!
48

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 11/05/2008 08:13:11
So what do we have?

The Liebour party telling us serfs that "everything is fine" & "we are united". Then you see the the Alexander debacle, & read:

*Prescott putting the boot in
*Levy putting the boot in
*Cherie Booth putting the boot in

Yet Liebour tell us Blair & Brown were as one??!!

What a load of cr@p. Liebour are split from top to bottom, & how can ANYONE belove what they say anymore, let alone VOTE for them. Do they STILL expect the people to vote Liebour?

Scotland deserves better, & the people will vote for better in 2010.
49

Buckfastleigh,

London calling... 11/05/2008 08:17:59
Who rules Scotland's Labor Partei; why clearly it's London.
50

kimba,

11/05/2008 08:20:33
Gordy has made a huge mistake,wendy had it right,a snap referendum would of left the snp high and dry,however,gordys time in office can be counted in months not years,and then we will have a conservative government and things will thankfully change.
51

mike3,

Midlands 11/05/2008 08:21:47
Does the public believe politician's statements? Talk about weapons of mass destruction!
52

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 08:23:09
Headline implies Wendy has some humility left. Generous reporting after her last 12 months..
53

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 08:25:07
61 oh so you would quite happily exclude children from your childs school for having a medical condition that would mean they are unable to be vaccinated. how nice of you.

anyway what do you think of wendys u turn on her U turn.
54

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:28:02
Rules, I think Labour has shot its bolt.
Into its foot.
In the next election, how many onetime supporters(including me) will vote for the only alternative?
55

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:30:07
66
Heh. Bendy Wendy indeed.
Can she clean pipes as well?
56

kimba,

11/05/2008 08:33:53
66.He never said that miss thing!
57

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:33:59
Look at the street she is on!http://www.ibegin.com/canada/british-columbia/revelstoke/wendy39s-plumbing-amp-electrical-1605-victoria-rd-1.html
58

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:35:58
kimba, you're an English democrat;Do you know Matt O'Conner?
59

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 11/05/2008 08:36:00
It was only inevitable something had to give and it wouldn't be Broon who's got enough problems as it is. So the Senga of the Opposition is now in an untenable position and will be making up excuses as we write.

The alternatives look even more dire unfortunately, but could offer much higher potential for entertainment at FMQs and Newsnicht.

Then Broon may well be facing his own demise soon and then there's the little question of an EU referendum as Wendy has now mentioned the "R" word. Bring that on...
60

Roy,

11/05/2008 08:36:15
First the election that never was, now the referendum that never was.
61

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 11/05/2008 08:36:22
Wendy Alexander is beyond humiliation, witness all that has been said in the past, and she is still there picking up her £250000 per annum. I too could take a lot of flak for that money.
62

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 11/05/2008 08:36:40
Wendy Alexander is beyond humiliation, witness all that has been said in the past, and she is still there picking up her £250000 per annum. I too could take a lot of flak for that money.
63

Roy,

11/05/2008 08:37:01
This all confirms what we already knew - Scottish Labour is being run from London.
64

kimba,

11/05/2008 08:37:13
66. Hope you are looking forward to the new conservative government,you may get what you want,but not in the way you want it!
65

St. George,

England 11/05/2008 08:38:11
No. 63 Kimba.

It is would HAVE and not would OF. Get a grip.
66

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 11/05/2008 08:38:44
Wendy has a remote control face, when you see her on TV you reach for the remote, therefore she is not getting her point across to the people who matter, she has no relevant policy for today's voters she has no strategy other than, who shouts loudest will win, i am not a Salmon fan, but one thing he does not do is shout, he is controlled and jolly at all times on TV, you listen because you will get a laugh with some of the ridculous things he says, it may be rubbish coming from his mouth but because of his delivery people are beginning to listen, and that is all Salmon needs, Wendy take note and leave now or labour will end up in scotland the same as labour in the south.
67

kimba,

11/05/2008 08:40:49
71. No, and have no wish to do so,he is one mistake that should never have happened.
68

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 08:42:25
Wendy says
"The SNP can never again claim that a 'unionist cabal' is denying Scotland a voice."

Too true! The Tories and Glibdums cannot afford to be sullied by associating themselves with Scottish Labour ever again! She dissolved the cabal.
It's as if Wendy has resorted to committing acts of 'self harm'. You almost feel like turning away, because it's almost too gruesome to witness.
And Brown, ever the sociopath, is quite willing to sit back and watch her bleed to death.

Not for a second do I believe that Brown made it clear that she was on her own on the referendum issue. Had he done so, she would never have proceeded with it.

Wendy's only hope now would be to declare independence for herself and the Scottish Labour group. I would respect them if they did, but it'll never happen.

She'll be gone shortly I'm sure, Brown'll probably hang in a bit longer. Whether you're a unionist or a nat, this lot are now impeding good governance, and are beyond resuscitation. Time to help them both slip away peacefully.
69

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:43:24
77
I AM so looking forward to a Conservative government in Westminster.
Scottish Independence about three weeks later,
70

kimba,

11/05/2008 08:46:14
78. Take it you NEVER make a mistake,it's 8.48 for gods sake.
71

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 08:48:01
The last hope for the WENDY

http://tinyurl.com/5agcwt
72

kimba,

11/05/2008 08:48:11
83. LOL,you wish!
73

NBJT,

North Berwick 11/05/2008 08:48:13
The Scottish Labour Party, indeed the Labour Party, are the laughing stock of politics!!!!

Independence , quick, please!!!!!!
74

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:48:38
84
Still drunk?
75

mrsbruce,

Livingston 11/05/2008 08:49:52
I'm confused.....


We can't have an early referendum as we are waiting for the report on the future of devolution. Anyway, no-one wants an election just now, and why should we just because Alexander shouts "bring it on" (I found that very embarrassing).

So we have to assume that Wendy Alexander didn't mean to have a snap election, she was only trying to show how cowardly the SNP are.

Mmmm.......

I think that excuse ranks alongside "big boy done it and run away".

Any chance of having grown up politics in Scotland before we're laughed out the court.
76

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:50:27
85
LoL.
But who is she praying to...?
77

Phil C,

11/05/2008 08:50:38
Oh well, that makes it simple then- a referendum in 2010. Bring it on!
78

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 08:52:37
One really shouldn't intrude on private grief, but to be considered incompetent by Henry McLeish.......
79

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 08:53:20
...http://cdbaby.name/f/l/flashgordon2.jpg
80

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 08:54:58
85# Independence

Is that her squeezing the last of her career down the toilet?
81

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 08:56:06
Wendy Alexander's political faux pax over the proposal for an early Referendum on Independence is the least of Gordon Brown's worries.

In a short time as Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, like the other Scots Unionist leaders, Ms. Alexander has proved she is not a big fish like Salmond and Sturgeon!



82

John S,

11/05/2008 09:02:27
Brown "I will do whatever is necessary to ensure the stability and maintenance of the Union," "I won't let the Union split"
In 1707: Lest the Scots were not entirely persuaded, propaganda was used and military pressure was brought to bear. Troops were moved to the border in an indication of England's willingness to use force if the other methods failed.
But this is 2008 and there other methods which can be used if necessary to ensure the stability and maintenance of the Union.ie Remember the £5,000 a year bill every Scottish family faced if they elect the SNP.
83

kimba,

11/05/2008 09:03:43
84.I wish,had to drive my dad to work,not that it's any of your business.
84

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 09:07:01
#90 the ghost of Keir Hardy

#94 Ananurhing, as a mother of twins she's used to squeezing things out oh her front bottom.


There's an ethereal quality in that shot that speaks to the downtrodden and vulnerable two year olds bereft of nursery places, that after all is what her legacy will be. Well that and "impermissible" bungs, lies, deceit, the referendum that never was and of course 10/10
85

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 09:11:03
94 down the U bend you mean............
86

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 09:15:26
101
Karin see link @ 70;-)
87

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 09:16:15
here kimba i thought you supported the english democrates have you had a U-turn and are now supporting the conservatives.

88

jdships,

11/05/2008 09:17:20
Interesting that at the top the page the advertising logo states

"HOW LOW CAN YOU GO ?"

How appropriate !!!!!!!!
89

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 09:18:03
100# Fresian
I think her next 'Brown' envelope will contain her P45, or polonium maybe.

101# Karin

And Brown's standing by with the Harpic.
90

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 09:21:12
do you think wendy saw this poster somewhere and thought thats how i will win.

http://www.ww2poster.co.uk/posters/imagebank/digonforvictory.htm
91

Union is Best,

11/05/2008 09:33:43
What do we want? A referedum!
When do we want it? Now

What do we want? No further mention of referendums.
When do we want it? Gordon hasn't told us
92

Miss H,

11/05/2008 09:35:25
Even if Wendy does resign it will be politically very difficult for Scottish Labour to refuse to support the referendum bill when it is put before Parliament in 2010. Having expressed support for a referendum as a way of testing opinion they cannot back away without it being seen as being slapped down by London - and that is not a perception they will wish to encourage so close to the elections especially if there is by that time a Tory administration in Westminster.
93

shivago8,

livingston 11/05/2008 09:40:21
Who said what
We had BLAIR THE LIAR
Now we have Broon the LIAR AND
We now have the mooth Wendy Bendy the LIAR.
God have mercy on us.
Is there anyone in new labour--STRAIGHT
94

Union is Best,

11/05/2008 09:44:08

..with Alexander aides now calling Brown "a ditherer", while Brown's team dismissed Alexander as a "political pygmy"

Well, we Unionists have brought it on! On each other now! Just wait till we have finished, then you Nats will be next! grrrrrrr
95

Union is Best,

11/05/2008 09:45:22
Herald -

A third source close to Alexander said of Brown's aides: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland."

Hmmm, this is bring on the wrong stuff! We Unionists may need to regroup.
96

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 09:49:11
111
I've got a wee room you can hire.
97

Union is Best,

11/05/2008 09:53:13
112. No, no, no, Wendy won't go near a U-Bend at the moment. Bring it up! Bring it back! Bring it down! Bring it off!
98

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 09:55:02
Heh, have you seen the link at 70?
99

Union is Best,

11/05/2008 09:57:18
114. :-) Total slur. Wendy is consistent. The world is out of focus.
100

JT,

11/05/2008 10:01:27
Its simple for Brown, dont p off Scotland, after all he is supposed to be one of us when it suits him. This really happend a long time ago, when they started slagging of the personal aspects of the SNP, fine fair enough critise their policies, but when they went for the personal lives they lost the respect of the people and hence the SNP got in. Brown has never accepted this administration and never will, again by being a bullish ignorant loser he has lost touch with reality. We will never forgive him for stuffing up pensions and as the recent english and welsh elections gettting rid of the 10p tax has lost him the control. I feel sorry for Wendy as she seemed to be the only person to stand up as for labour and get absolutely hee haw support from her party. It makes you ask the question what is Brown REALLY afraid of??
101

morris,

edinburgh 11/05/2008 10:02:46
15

You have put it in a nutshell.Wendy is not leader of anything.The silly woman thinks that power has been devolved within the Labour Party. Did she not understand that all Labour MSPs do what they are told.You are a branch office only and HQ calls the shots.
I thought at least they had understood that they are being paid to pretend that they have some say in what happens.THEY HAVE NO INFLUENCE WHATSOEVER and most of them couldnt tie their own laces anyway.As the BBCS Taylor once said on Tv You wouldn/t send half of them to the shop for a message.Thats a fair description of New Labour. When Cathy of the Magic Circle (prisoners disappear just like that) and Hut are considered to be prominent you cannot expect much else as leader.

Wendy is a liabilty. The problem is who do you replace her with? I see Chisholm as the only one capable of holding his own,and he will NEVER be selected because he will only take so much crap from Maggie Broon and quit.Bring back Henry.All is forgiven.
At least with Henry you knew when he was telling the truth because his lip stopped twitching(so I am told,I never witnessed it personally).
102

roughrider,

Downhill 11/05/2008 10:12:00
WENDY Alexander was ridiculed by her political opponents last night after she was ordered by Gordon Brown to "close down" any further discussion of an independence referendum in Scotland.
So the mouth is controlled fae the south, ubendy wendy
is a walking talking disaster. God bless her wee andy pandy suit.
103

Martin 2,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 10:16:47
A few posts on The Sunday Herald site are questioning if the Calman Commission is breaking EU Council of Europe rules on the protection of minorities - not sure if true or not but an interesting point.

This would go against all 3 parties who decided to set it up.

I get the feeling that the trauma of another Conservative election win in England ( and I don't say that it in an anti-English way - the Conservatives have minimum support in Scotland and Wales) will push many Scots to press the independence button.

I reckon the SNP would split ( or a new more right wing nationalist party would be formed) after a "yes" referendum result, into parties of the left and right - this would follow what the reality is like in most European countries.

If Labour got back to some core values I think it would do quite well in an independent Scotland.

104

James.com,

Clifton 11/05/2008 10:21:24
If Gorden Brown really wants to "save the Union" he should oppose it!
105

Ian Menzies,

Epsom 11/05/2008 10:22:51
Interesting how the voting public are being told that senior colleagues down south did'nt make clear that Ms Alexander was headed in the wrong direction - Wendy we will not back a referendum on independence seems pretty clear to me. Either they did mak it clear in which case she lied and should go, or they did'nt make it clear - and how clear does it need to be either Gordon does or does not support a referendum - in which case a general election would be a better idea. As to Ms Alexander's snipe about colour, Brown would know all about that.
106

Ian Menzies,

Epsom 11/05/2008 10:23:04
Interesting how the voting public are being told that senior colleagues down south did'nt make clear that Ms Alexander was headed in the wrong direction - Wendy we will not back a referendum on independence seems pretty clear to me. Either they did mak it clear in which case she lied and should go, or they did'nt make it clear - and how clear does it need to be either Gordon does or does not support a referendum - in which case a general election would be a better idea. As to Ms Alexander's snipe about colour, Brown would know all about that.
107

James.com,

Clirton 11/05/2008 10:23:45
p.s. Pse. pse. keep Wendy....this is better than Eastenders!
108

Ian Menzies,

Epsom 11/05/2008 10:23:46
know all about that.Interesting how the voting public are being told that senior colleagues down south did'nt make clear that Ms Alexander was headed in the wrong direction - Wendy we will not back a referendum on independence seems pretty clear to me. Either they did mak it clear in which case she lied and should go, or they did'nt make it clear - and how clear does it need to be either Gordon does or does not support a referendum - in which case a general election would be a better idea. As to Ms Alexander's snipe about colour, Brown would know all about that.
109

Ian Menzies,

Epsom 11/05/2008 10:24:41
OOPS!
110

Richardinho,

11/05/2008 10:32:57
Wendy has lied through her teeth and has been caught doing so on numerous occasions in the last week. That seriously undermines her credibility.
Last week on the Channel 4 news she was asked why the SNP shouldn't stick to their 2010 referendum commitmment in their manifesto, and she explicitly denied that there was such a commitment.
Given that she references the SNP manifesto just about every week, it's inexplicable that she hasn't read it.
It's pretty clear that she is just a hot headed liar who will say whatever seems most convenient in the moment.
111

druidh,

edinburgh 11/05/2008 10:33:42
#29 and #53. That link to Wendy Alexanders resignation is to her resignation as Enterprise Minister (you can see this by looking at the source HTML).
112

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 10:34:26
Now if any of us evil cybernats had said this. AM2 and his merry band of drooling followers would have rightly condemned us.


Jenny Hjul: Coco the clown would do a better job than Wendy Alexander


http://tinyurl.com/63rkmq
113

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 10:44:55
129
It just can't get better, eh?
114

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 10:48:55
130
Perhaps Meths;would've?
Sounds like innat?
115

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 11/05/2008 10:49:11
Funny how the story about Rangers' gifts from the ref yesterday has nigh on 600 posts.

Maybe Wendy should think about taking up refereeing? She couldn't be less popular than she is now.
116

Edward,

11/05/2008 10:50:08
During Douglas Alexander's interview on the Andrew Marr show, he did his using sucking up to Brown, by stating that there should not be a referendum, so going against his sister. But he also included the phrase 'we will do whatever is necessary to ensure the stability and maintenance of the Union and will do anything and everything to ensure that the case for the United Kindom' Which is exactly more or less wht Brown is coming out with
Fortunately we live in a democracy or I would start thinking dark thoughts of what they mean by 'whatever is necessary' I wouldnt put it past Brown to consider using MI5 for exactly these purposes. He probably regrets that he cant send the tanks into Edinburgh, besides anyway, they wouldnt get far as the city is being dug up at the moment for the trams!
117

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 10:52:34
Its nearly lunchtime can anyone tell me what wendys position is on the referendum at the moment. I know the position will have changed again after lunchtime but i wouldnt enjoy my lunch if i didnt know the position. I know i am going to have to ask again after lunch but thats a whole 2 hours away. A lot can happen in an hour where wendy is concerned.
118

Farmernot,

oan ma traictor 11/05/2008 10:53:29
Marks out of ten Wendy ???.......Nil points......bye bye
119

mike3,

Midlands 11/05/2008 10:57:58
If they truly believe in the Union then their antics of the past 10 years show very clearly that they aren't fit to run a country. All they are fit for is jockeying for position in a rag bag political party that thought it would always be in power in the cental belt no matter what.
120

WL,

livingston 11/05/2008 10:59:19
This will be the end of the Unionist Labour Party in Scotland. Wendy could always lead a real Scottish Labour Party.
121

Glasgow Expat,

Desert 11/05/2008 11:00:04
Storm the parliament and put them all in the jougs. Power to the people.
122

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:00:42
wendy bring it on again

wendy put it off again

well all be freeeeeeeeee

(to the tune of polly put the kettle on)
123

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 11:06:37
142# Karinxxx

Dougie shut her up again

Dougie shut her up again

Dougie shut her up again

It's all slipping away!
124

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:09:36
143 lol.....I like yours. lets put them together.

wendy bring it on again

wendy put it off again

well all be freeeeeeeeee

Dougie shut her up again

Dougie shut her up again

Dougie shut her up again

make it all go away!

(note my slight change)
125

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 11:13:45
135
Meths. Ah. You read modern American fiction...
I wouldn't've.
126

Bring Back Henry,

St Andrews 11/05/2008 11:16:35
When you're trying to pull the wool over the electorate's eyes, make sure you do it properly, Wendy. Otherwise, they will see what you're up to and will never forgive you.

Your independence-referendum initiative will be seen to be little more than an insincere cheap political trick. Insincere cheap political tricks only work if people don't know that that's what they are.

These things are also very difficult to execute, requiring meticulous preparation, consultation and a degree of credibility. Ask Jack McConnell. He knows all about that sort of thing.

A large majority of the Scottish people seem to attach considerable importance to a referendum on independence. In playing around with this issue for narrow party-political advantage you have alienated them. In doing so in a ludicrously incompetent manner, you have made yourself even more of a laughing-stock than you were already.

Time to go. Go.
127

Conan the Librarian™,

11/05/2008 11:20:09
147
You want to bring back Henry.

How strange.
128

John PM,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 11:20:48
I wonder if the Scottish Labour party wish they were independent?! After all, all of Labour's Scottish MSP's backed Alexander.

Now it looks like the sheep will soon get a new shepherd and even if not they will still all trot through the lobbies and vote down a referendum in 2010.

Isn't London rule great! Ever wondered if you were on the wrong side Wendy? I notice that Brian Wilson is attacking you in the Times even though he called for the same thing!

Electoral annihilation will follow this decision and who can say it's not deserved? Labour have been shown up (again) as glove puppets controlled by London.

Bye bye!
129

Ken S.,

Reading 11/05/2008 11:21:47
Daily Telegraph quotes Brown as saying he will do whatever is necessary to preserve the United Kingdom

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1944747/Gordon-Brown-won%27t-let-England-and-Scotland-split.html

So there.

End of debate.

... Isn't it?
130

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 11:25:07
#140 So, AM2 as the writing is on the wall and the page is already reserved on the Hootsman site(it was placed at 1.40am), who do you think WILL be the next leader of the Labour party in Hollyrood and who do think SHOULD be?
131

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:28:44
story also running in the sunday post.

http://www.sundaypost.com/postindex.htm
132

Jimmy the Pie,

11/05/2008 11:29:56
The last ten days or so have shown up New Labour Sleaze and Corruption to be interested in only one thing - themselves. They don't care about anything other than holding on to power. Principles, beliefs and morals all go out the window in the rush to hold on to power.
Their contempt for the electorate (ie all the biographies that are rushing onto the bookshelves) is breathtaking.
Their arrogance is astounding. Fortunately the electorate will give them their comeuppance shortly.

I can't wait!
133

John PM,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 11:31:15
#152, the page will be pointing to Wendy's last resignation.

She could well resign soon but it won't matter as the Scottish Labour group in parliament supposedly supports a referendum but in fact their London owners do not. They well get their orders in 2010 and will do what they are told no matter what puppet is in charge (maybe wee Jackie Mac. will be dug up again!).
134

Iain's,

11/05/2008 11:34:46
WENDY Alexander was ridiculed by her political opponents. aND BY HER OLD NEW lABOUR BOSSES.

They were shocked by Boris winning London. They thought it impossible.

If a Scottish passsport is cheaper than a British one.......Bring on Independence!

135

Jimmy the Pie,

11/05/2008 11:39:19
#152 Independence? Bring it On!,

It's got to be His Lardship Fatty Foolkes.
If anyone was every born to rule, it's his Lardship.
His smugness, arrogance and the contempt he holds the electorate makes him the only choice. His manner when being interviewed is perfect - never answer a question, never commit to anything except "yes, I'll have another glass of champagne"

Born to lead!

Bring him on!

Pick him up!
136

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 11:39:53
#155 John PM Nope. here's the last resignation in all it's prescient glory.


http://tinyurl.com/64zbyx
137

European Scot,

11/05/2008 11:41:03
138 WL

"This will be the end of the Unionist Labour Party in Scotland. Wendy could always lead a real Scottish Labour Party."

You make a good point here, why don't some in the Labour Party organise a pro- Independence group right now. With Labour support haemorrhaging at such a rate, they must realise that any future success lies with Independence.
A Scottish Labour party, supporting Independence, would do very well.
But under Wendy ? No, it needs some credibility to start with.
138

,

11/05/2008 11:41:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
139

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:42:41
and in tiny url

http://tiny.cc/g3pCo
140

Steve O.,

11/05/2008 11:44:22
Cheer up, Wendy! Even if you've screwed things up in Holyrood, I'm confident there is a bright future for you in Westminster as Minister for Social Affairs and Woodland Folk!
141

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:44:39
164 aye

BRING IT ON...............
142

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 11:49:17
AAAHA! Now I understand the significance of the Labour sanctioned " upturned boats " design of the Scottish Parliament building.
It represents the union, and the unionist parties lying dead in the water.

It's been like one of those magic eye pictures. I didn't think I was ever going to get it.
143

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:58:07
167 whoa you bet i was spooky.

anyway found one of wendy after her meeting with gordon.



shall i bring it on?????
144

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:58:42
okay her you go

http://www.mactonnies.com/chapternine.jpg
145

Queen D,

Glasgow 11/05/2008 12:00:30
Young Spook , the cut'n paste man is a Tory .
Why would he want to be leader of Labour?
Ooops ! I see what you mean!
The difference twixt the two is, indeed, unclear.
146

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 11/05/2008 12:16:54
Martin 2 (119),

Interesting that you bring up parties after independence because I think it'll be fascinating to see what'll happen. I disagree regarding the SNP, though, as I would imagine they'll just have a name change and most likely the Social Democrats or the Democrats or something like that. Because, after all, in terms of policy and place on the spectrum they're closest to a sort of Scandinavian style of Social Democratic Party in which there's a broad church in the party but with mainly a consensus on left - centre populist policies. As for another nationalist party on the right emerging, I doubt it, apart from some wee movement or other which probably already exists, because there's no real need to draw attention to a civic Scotland once Scotland is independent, I suppose.

I agree about Labour and, actually, I think in an independent Scotland a Labour party would do quite well as they would also probably be social democratic on the left - centre and so could get their act together.

The two main parties I think would be the Social Democrats / Democrats and Labour and then probably the Liberal Party in third and then a Conservative Party in fourth. But, it's all pie in the sky, I suppose, 'til we can bring that about.
147

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 12:18:05
So Milliband says that Wendy was merely " pointing out the hypocracy of the Scottish National Party."

Oh aye, like sticking to their manifesto pledge of a referendum in 2010!
148

morris,

edinburgh 11/05/2008 12:19:23
It becomes increasingly clear to even the dumbos that the position is (and always was) that we have no desire to consult the people unless we can guarantee the outcome.Westminster cares NOTHING for the wishes of the people,What they care about is the wishes of the UNIONISTAS. There is no democracy involved.Wendy s thinking was actually quite sound.After Labour are given the hiding of hidings in a General Election and the thickest amongst us realise Labour not only cannot win,they have just lost and by a country mile,that the choice is in fact Tory or Independence.In 2010 the SNP should win any referendum outright or we really are thick!
Today however its possible that the Union could be saved a bit longer.Brown is the one who lacks judgement here or is it courage . He fears for his own carreer more than anything else,and dreads the public being asked anything.He is a lost cause leading a party who are sinking into the abyss. He dare not risk it! That tells you how confident Broon is! His world collapsed when England declared themselves a Labour free zone.Of course we elected eighteen years of Tory government including Thatcher because we listened to these idiots.They would have us do it again to save their mortgages and gravy train. If you still vote Labour you should be locked up for your own safety.
149

Phil1888,

11/05/2008 12:24:10
Since becoming leader of the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament she has had the unprecedented situation of three spin-doctors resigning within a matter of months.

Wonder why...
150

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 12:24:48
The labourites talk of “neverendums” in relation to Quebec, now we have a Wenderendum, which seemingly only ever existed in Never Never land.
The back bench sheep all baaa’d their full support of their U-tube of a leader, at least until such times as she was exposed as a latter day “toom tabard”, and they received their instructions on what to think from Captain Hook, dan sarf.
Malcolm Chinless showed all the qualities of one of the “lost children” when he appeared on Newsnicht and succeeded only in eliciting howls of derision from his fellow guests, as he attempted to stand on his head and speak out of his posterior.
Wendy herself is now due to appear on the “Politics Show” this lunchtime, and will no doubt explain her “Bring it on” statement of last week in a cogent, rational and robust manner.
No doubt the whole “misunderstanding” will be down to the misreporting of the nationalist leaning media, such as the BBC, Hootsmon, Herald and the Daily Retard (?)
Of course, she has no intention of resigning as she has the full backing of Gordon Brown, Father Buckfast, Lord Zebedee and yon erudite fat lady who is the MSP for Greggsville.
151

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:30:50
wendys on now
152

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:31:32
wendy is making an erse of herself.
153

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 12:32:30
183. LOL. She couldn't even answer :Who is leader of the Labour party in Scotland.

Carnage.
154

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:32:35
its tactics now...........
155

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:33:58
wendy is tying herself in knots.
156

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:34:31
glenn cambell just effectively called her a liar.
157

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:34:58
oh my god my toes are curling for her.
158

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:35:39
its the press's fault now.
159

,

11/05/2008 12:36:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
160

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:36:40
now she says we want it but the tories and lib dems dont. oh my god oh my god.
161

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:38:44
now shes suppoting any bill
162

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:40:48
oh my god car crash tv again.
163

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 12:40:54
In the words of Jimmy Naill

She's lyin'!

Oh, and now it's the fault of some business leaders.
164

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:42:56
oh my god i want to hide behind the sofa this is so awful for her.
165

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:43:59
oh my god she says things are clear the womans MAD

MAD i say.
166

roughrider,

11/05/2008 12:45:17
wendy is making an erse of herself as per usual.
167

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:45:35
i thought she was supposed to have a period of silence.
168

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:45:59
198 roughrider are your toes curling for her.
169

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:48:27
cairns is on cairns is on.
170

morris,

edinburgh 11/05/2008 12:48:35
181

That is something which I can probably agree with you on.They might also like to stick their life savings on Gretna winning the European Championship,for all I know,and get about the same odds!
I did not say they agree with me,only that I will be proven correct: Cameron will win.Labour are washed up.
They could be replaced as the official opposition never mind party of government!

The choice is between a Tory government and an independent Scotland. If you don't have the latter YOU WILL HAVE THE FORMER.I can hardly make it easier to understand than that, can I ?


The fact that the majority do not yet agree with me does not concern me unduly.I will be correct as I was the last time we believed Labour can win ,and voted FOUR times and got four successive Tory governments.

If its half time I'm leading 4-0 and 5-0 is on the horizon!Personally I think its in the dying seconds of the game.I can understand you defend the Union for whatever reason.I cannot understand that Scotland backing a horse with no legs is the action of an intelligent human!
171

roughrider,

11/05/2008 12:48:49
200
No, I could barely look at the tv .
PUUUUKKKKE
172

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 12:49:14
Har de har de har, dead woman walking! I missed out one salient supporter of Wendy's continued leadership, Alex Salmond :-), geez, Fater Buckfast is now on lol
173

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:49:43
I covered my eyes it was the only way i could listen.
174

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:49:57
cairns is raging.
175

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:50:35
thas it the tv is going out the windae.
176

roughrider,

11/05/2008 12:52:15
Cairns is an idiotic unionist parasite.
Talkin shi*e .
177

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:53:35
glenn geid him a roasting.
178

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 12:54:00
ahhh parochial. ahhahhahahahah
179

izzie,

arbroath 11/05/2008 12:55:01
so its all alex salmond's fault
180

roughrider,

Glasgow 11/05/2008 12:55:44
Tyipical liebour scum ,he refuses to answer any questions and spits out anti SNP bile.
181

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 12:55:45
Can it really be true? The SNP are trying to stop us having a say on independence? How could I have been such a fool not to see that!

Did I just hear Cairns saying " Inexplicable as it may seem, I am not a member of the cabinet." ?????????
Breathtaking arrogance!

182

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 13:03:38
213 how could we have listened to labour for 50 years how could we not see how stupid they were.
183

Shettlestonian,

11/05/2008 13:14:26
Wendy invents the Scottish political O-turn and doesn't even get it right. It's time for Scottish Labour to draw on their huge huge well of talent(cough) for a replacement leader.
184

roughrider,

Glasgow 11/05/2008 13:22:48
216. Neither would my dug.
185

Ananurhing,

11/05/2008 13:26:53
Fresian and Roughrider

I think that's Salmond's job. Every Thursday! Pornpolitik !
186

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 13:30:13
oh my god that woman has no shame. none.

did you see her sitting smirking at the end of the programme.

even i felt ashamed for her and i cant stand her.
187

Resolutions,

11/05/2008 13:33:02
Did anyone else(I guess a lot from comments) think that maybe, just maybe the BBC are actually trying to give a slightly more balanced viewpoint?

Talk about the 'Bendy Wendy(Rude) Comedy Show'!

Incredible.
188

Matt there,

somewhere 11/05/2008 13:33:15
In Scotland Labour is in free-fall. In England Labour is in free-fall. Only in Wales (where Plaid Cymru were fooled into propping up Labour) is the Labour Party not in utter free-fall. YET.
189

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 13:34:19
Just saw Wendy Alexander on Politics show, an impressive and defiant performance. If people think that that was awful, then they are really not comparing it to the gloom predicted for her in the press today (all of the press except the Herald). I don't think she is going anywhere fast, she will have to be crowbarred out of there. If I was a Scottish labour activist or MSP I would have been sitting there watching Glenn hoping for the interview of his life and not getting what he expected.
Part of this is about the London Labour supporters of Brown trying to use her as the patsy to deflect attention from his leadership, which is more on the rocks than hers. Who in all credibility would be able to take over from her?
Although I am an SNP supporter (and I do agree the Labour strategy is in a bit of a mess) this time it is not down to Scottish Labour - this signals the emergence of a Scottish Labour strategy (See Iain MacWhirter in today's Sunday Herald). From Tuesday it should have been evident that this was a dash for freedom, and from Thursday's FMQs this was evidently a defiant and gutsy stance for her. Were they expecting her to back down she should have done it on Thursday, but she didn't.
What I see is that this woman, however much I find her personally distasteful, can stomach any amount of ridicule that is chucked at her, and will not 'go quietly'. This is not over. The Labour Party in Scotland does not necessarily have Wendy Alexander as its leader, but it does exist as an entity and it does not love Gordon Brown unconditionally.
By the way, well done Fiona Hyslop today, good stuff.
190

Resolutions,

11/05/2008 13:35:10
Yes Karin I did

She has no shame.

'Sweet Little Lies' indeed

Not little - wollopers!

Even doon sooth is beginning to wonder.
191

izzie,

arbroath 11/05/2008 13:45:35
according to Wendy on Thursday the issue of the future of scotland was too important to make cheap political points however her new mantra 'the snp is as yellow as a party with yellow in its logo' is playground taunt level.
however I must admit it took guts to appear on t.v. after the week she has had. It's a pity it wasn't Paxman interviewing her.
192

Jimmy the Pie,

11/05/2008 13:46:26
Just came in for my lunch and kicked myself for missing the TV progs. Sounds like Red Wendy and Father Cairns covering themselves in glory again!!

Any links?????
193

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 13:49:22
225 izzie that isnt guts thats breathtaking arrogance.

everyone else is wrong and she is right is the message she is putting out.

FACT she lied that gordon brown supported her

FACT she lied over her donations

the woman is a LIAR.
194

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 13:50:15
226 jimmy think 100 times worse than that guy that looks like quagmire.
195

Vivas,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 13:50:18
The cliche that gets bandied about when you're in a hole, is to stop digging.

Wendy won't stop digging until she comes out under the southern oceans. Insanity, pride, bravery, stubbornness...who knows, a bit of everything I suspect.

Keep digging hen, keep digging :-)))
196

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 13:57:06
225: Even so, Glenn was hoping for a complete capitulation from her, and didn't get it.
197

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 13:58:58
“Labour in Scotland are only asking themselves the obvious question of what to do the day after independence. When that comes, they would be much better off not being in the position of having opposed and blocked the act that will legitimise independence. Because if they ever want to be a party of government in Scotland again then they have to take part in the foundational moment on the side of the people, whatever the result.
Just because Labour's goose is cooked in England, it doesn't follow in the least that it is cooked in Scotland. It is suicidal for Scottish Labour MPs and MSPs to be cannon fodder now for the flimsy Blairite coalition 'project' in England (the Blair which project) (remember the emotional blackmail used on Scottish voters to get them to vote Labour for years as they are essential to a stable UK Labour majority - that's gone - see last Sunday Herald's opinion piece). Scottish Labour have, structurally, as strong a position among the Scottish electorate as the SNP are now building, which can be maintained if they focus on the stuff that is of interest to Scots, and not constantly engaging in this mind-numbing wooden language that they use to obscure the issues. I hate to admit it, but I feel a bit sorry that Wendy is getting all this stick at the moment, because her call for a referendum is an original and courageous political decision, and a considerable risk on her part. Although I am a massive fan of Nicola Sturgeon (especially at her FMQs last week) the fact that she is now suggesting that Wendy's position is untenable is the biggest backhanded compliment that there is. There is no-one to challenge her for the leadership of the holyrood Labour MSPs who have to support her, and they know that she is right. Now that her policy will settle down and she is not the PM's place woman, she should perform better in future. Look at how difficult it was for Jack because he couldn't run his own election campaign.” (from Friday)
198

Vivas,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 14:00:37
Glenn Campbell is a bit of a lightweight. Wendy is so damaged though that even he scored easy points from her today.

...Gordon Brewer would have given her a bloody nose... and Paxman would have put her in the (political) mortuary !

199

james the geologist,

Mull 11/05/2008 14:01:17
That "yellow" comment by Wendy Alexander shows the real nature of this bunny boiler. I remember some labour type way back in 74 referring to George Reid a "little yellow man".

And this is the one who was supposed to have an enormous intellect!!

If this is the clever side of Labour, please please please keep the thickos away...

Go back to your constituencies, Labour, and prepare for oblivion.

Come out from under yourt flat rocks when you've got something worthwhile to add. Scotland is sick of you.

200

BassRock,

Dunbar 11/05/2008 14:04:40
I can't help but think that this Labour government has taken the definition if hypocrisy to a whole different level. For Milliband to state that the events of the last week were designed to point out the hypocrisy of the Scottish National Party i.e. the fact they're honouring a well documented pledge made in an election manifesto when he himself is a member of the government which also pledged to hold a referendum on the EU treaty and then reneged on it shows to me the contempt these people have for the electorate.

201

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 14:05:23
So, that was from my response to the story in the Scotsman on Friday, and I still think that after that interview today Wendy has not let go of the opportunity that Brown’s weakness presents to her. That was not the humiliating U-turn on the back of Brown's clunking fist that was predicted by the press today. Today she categorically did not back down in the interview railroaded for a second into bit of prevarication to try to save Brown's blushes a bit. But she did say that she was on the side of the people in that interview - i.e. a referendum and right to choose of the people, and that is not backing down at all. Watch that interview again - if the SNP are saying she's untenable, then she's very tenable.
202

craigy,

11/05/2008 14:08:01
anyone got a link to todays show on bbc iplayer, or perhaps know why its only the uk/london edition thats available?
thanks
203

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 14:08:17
I agree with alot of the criticisms of Labour on here, but that does not mean that she's toast, and the thing I don't agree with is the Wendy suffered in that interview.
204

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 14:09:20
238 - Maybe someone will put it on youtube soon.
205

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 14:12:33
237 wee fifer can you really not see how bad this is for labour. For goodness sake man the woman just went on national TV and made a complete t*t of herself. MY toes were curling for her. It was dire. Have some bloody deceny and stop making her look any more idiotic than she already does. Have you no empathy.
This is the equivalent of walking about naked. Dont you get it.
206

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 14:15:20
wee fifer she will have no life after this dont you get it the womans life is over if she doesnt go now. She will never again be able to work in this country. She passed laughing stock on the way to end of the road. and if she goes shes taking labour with her.
207

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 14:20:38
karinxxx
At the risk of being ridculed myself, I am just looking at a wider canvas. I know that I am blogging against the majority opinion today. My opinion is that today's headline says 'Brown humiliates Alexander': what I would suggest is that the headline should be updated to 'Alexander humiliates Brown'. He has said he doesn't want a referendum, and she is saying that she is on the 'side of the people' and thinks there should be one. Ergo, she's implying that he's not on the side of the people. That's defiance.
I am partisan and in favour of the SNP and independence, but any step therefore in the direction of an 'independent' Scottish Labour Party can only help that in the long term, and that is why I think that this is the SL leadership taking advantage of the situation to think about the 'day after' independence when they can at least make a fist of claiming that they were on the side of the people all along.
208

Fairfax,

11/05/2008 14:24:50
WarDog (234): 3. "She refuses to ask the UK Government to bring forward a binding referendum or explain why she doesn't do this"

We don't know that she hasn't made that request. I suspect she already has (privately), but Brown is, after all, generally averse to elections.
209

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 14:26:24
244 wee fifer i agree with you that she did a number on brown but she is the one thats now having to back down because he told her to.
210

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 14:27:02
244 thats humiliation.
211

Fairfax,

11/05/2008 14:28:37
Wee Fifer (244): He has said he doesn't want a referendum, and she is saying that she is on the 'side of the people' and thinks there should be one. Ergo, she's implying that he's not on the side of the people. That's defiance."

Agreed. It's yet another symbol of Brown's failed government: when friends and former loyalists turn against the PM, then time is short.
212

Wee Fifer,

Ednburgh 11/05/2008 14:41:47
246 karin, 248 fairfax
Karin, absolutely did a number, but because the facts are unclear about earlier in the week we are still having to do a forensics on what it means :-) but one thing is clear - she's not backed down, and what I don't see is how this represents a humiliating climbdown on her part when she's talking about being on 'the side of the people' and the 'right of the SL to decide on tactics etc.'. She's absolutely thumbing her nose at him. This is not about the referendum, it's about a shift in the balance of power in the Labour leadership away from Brown. She said she holds the PM in high regard. Whenever a politian says that then usually the opposite is the case. According to today's papers she's backed down (yesterday). Actually all she has done is acknowledge that she can't introduce a referendum. But in the first place she was the one who said 'bring it on', and she wasn't telling herself to bring it on, bring it on is an imperative, to get someone else to do what you want.
Fairfax, will the other parties come onto that side of the people pro-referendum turf now - the libdems are being very quiet?
213

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 14:45:04
249 Col Blimp IV
Absolutely right, Blair thought it would be a Potemkin's village council. But we've all seen how devolution can have unintended consequences, and one of them is a divergence in the needs and aspirations of the Scottish Labour Party - they are now wanting some of what the SNP has got. Although their MSPs are second rate, it doesn't mean that they are not aspirational, if they're about anything it is their own aspirations (if not the aspirations of ordinary Scots).
214

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 14:49:59
Karin, 247:
Humiliation was what she survived (amazingly, brazenly, bad bad bad, but true) with the donations. Humiliation was exactly what she would have faced if she'd done a Uturn today, putting Labour MSPs in the position to do a Uturn as well. Actually she's stuck to her guns. I thought that despite the pasting that Alex gave her on Thursday, she did a damn sight better on the scoreline than ever before. She's not great at FMQs (understatement) but the relief of crossing the rubicon was evident for her.
215

izzie,

11/05/2008 14:57:18
i agree wee fifer it wasn't the complete humiliation expected. Wendy was shown as a liar but people expect that of their politians. She was handed a get out a jail card by a soft interviewer who failed to pin her down. Wendy has cut Brown adrift and can distance herself from an unpopular regime in London claiming to stand up for scotland- no right thinking person will believe her but what about those who would vote for the red balloon on a stick?
216

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 14:59:54
wee fifer no she didnt stick to her guns. She said that this was all a tactic that she would have to look at a referendum bill. she didnt say that last week last week she categorically said "bring it on"
217

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 15:01:09
254 you can expect it of yours i dont expect it of mine. She LIED that brown endorsed her FACT.
218

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 15:09:10
Re the American literature vibe from earlier on today.

The WENDY added "Behind the eight ball" to her lexicon of Americanisms today joining such favourites as:

Goddammit

Bring it On

Holy Cow

Badda-bing

and

Freakin A.

Would it be impolite of me to mention that she might just be watching a bit too much Yank telly?
219

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 15:09:15
254:
Yes, of course she was equivocal on that, although for once I didn't think Glen was that soft, I thought he gave her a tough time, and she gave enough signals in political language to indicate a pretty major divergence of opinion between her and Gordon Brown, not only on the referendum, but also on the important issue of who speaks for the Labour Party in Scotland.
255 Karin, of course she said it was a tactic, and put the balance in favour of the tactic at some points in the interview when she was pressed, but she has said that along with her support for the referendum before today because she claiming that she is trying to make the referendum her turf rather than the SNP's - that has failed, circumstantially for the moment, but despite her equivocation about 'what will be in the bill' it's not a U turn (in fact it would have been really stupid of her to concede support for ANY SNP bill on a referendum whatever the wording, that would really have been daft). A Uturn would have been 'I am now no longer convinced of the need for a referendum (the principle) as I was earlier in the week'.
I'm not defending her, it's not my intention :-) I'm just trying to bring in another side to the analysis. If you look at the language, there is a bigger picture going on here. As far as doing what Brown told her, which is where the press were this morning, slap down and all the rest of it, then she did stick to her guns. She got back up off the canvas today.
220

megz,

glasgow 11/05/2008 15:14:37
nicked this from no really here over on the SH apparently it is in an article somewhere but it is very true.

'The Labour Party in Scotland has shown that it cannot even speak for itself, let alone the people of Scotland.'

I think the Scottish public should be reminded of this every time slab claim otherwise and that they are on the side of the people.
221

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 15:15:03
wee fifer i disagree that she got off the canvas i think shes down and we have got to five in the count.

Of course shes not going to come out and say you know what now i dont want one (a referendum) however she is not repeating bring it on. In fact she referred in a statement to that as past tense. She has been slapped down and is now doing what gordon tells her to do.

The "tactics are up to me" is the way they have come up with for her to save face. She categorically said last week to gordon brewer gordon fully endorses my position of calling for a referendum.

Brown has said he is not convinced.

She is treating the electorate like fools.

The electorate are not fools they know what they heard and they know she is now backing down.
222

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 15:15:49
257: Col Blimp
Independence doesn't necessarily imply a contraction of the career opportunities for the Labour Party. It implies a wholesale change in the dynamics of the Scottish party system. The raison d'etre of the Scottish National Party will disappear and all the political forces will realign to take account of the new situation - all parties will be nationalist then, of course they will. Left SNPers will gravitate to a new left party, centrists will gravitate to the Libs, tories to the tories. e.g. would it be sensible of Roseanna Cunningham to try to defend an SNP majority when she can do away with that and join another party and be the member for Perth forever and aye, never having to worry about her majority ever again, and probably have more chance of climbing the ranks in her new party than she ever had in the SNP?
223

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 15:21:19
Karin,
we don't know if she lied to Gordon Brewer yet, I honestly don't know whose word to take on that, there's not but between them, they're neither of them very trustworthy.
Personally, I think that he did back her and then backtracked. After all, he has got form on that front.
As to whether she can still go a few rounds (I don't think she's out for the count yet) we'll have to wait and see. I will look forward to next week's FMQs.
224

Jubilee,

Polwarth 11/05/2008 15:22:17
Independence worries me more now than before...

Now that the leader of the presumed opposition party acts like a petulant Fresher in a university debating society.

Perhaps Broon will "come home" after he's turfed out of Downing Street? Salmond vs Broon at FMQ's. A real heavyweight battle ;)
225

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 15:23:20
266:
Salmond can wipe the floor with Broon anyday. Bring it on!
226

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 15:24:51
Sorry, the mere suggestion of Broon versus Salmond made me feel all partisan again, thanks Jubilee.
227

megz,

glasgow 11/05/2008 15:40:33
the times goes easy on wendy hehe

http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/comment
/article3908810.ece


Jenny Hjul: Coco the clown would do a better job than Wendy Alexander


http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/uk
/scotland/article390
8816.ece


Bring on the clowns - Wendy Alexander's referendum U-turn

228

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 15:45:42
270
Thanks very much. I should maybe find something else to do on a Sunday though :)
Out of interest what's your view? the majority of opinion is here, )and I can understand exactly why, and she's not exactly made herself popular), is that Wendy has been weakened by all this, but actually, I can't see how she could have been any weaker. I think she's strengthened. Sturgeon made absolute mincemeat of her a couple of weeks ago, and you could see why they started to call the event the 'seal clubbing', but although Salmond pasted her (sorry for the mixed metaphors) last week she was stronger and more relaxed - it was the first time he had to do anything even approaching having to 'try' to make her look stupid in a long time.
229

Jubilee,

11/05/2008 15:56:59
272 She certainly has an element of dead man walking about her recent comments and appearances. I find the accusations made regarding the SNP's cowardice to be extremely distasteful (though after the methods employed in the election campaign, not very surprising).

The SNP has never experienced power before and could have really struggled and been bullied by the opposition while they found their feet. However, there has been a distinct lack of class and integrity (which is rare enough in the political arena) from SL which has done nothing but boost their rivals' profile.
230

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 15:59:16
273
It'll be the next thing under wendy alexander on youtube I imagine.
231

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 16:03:31
If she was dead man walking she now has a stay. I could picture it now. I thought donorgate was a potential episode of Taggart, but with the stay of execution this is turning into full blown Grisham stuff. I think it would be better for the SNP to take up Sturgeon's line that she once used about 'not intruding on private grief'. Thye don't need to say how daft she is, their line on the referendum is consistent enough.
232

Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 16:08:45
#272

The problems with 'Nat's' is their Hatred of Wendy and (most things)labour blinds them to all else. The fact is the snp and Labour are on the same side now. Their Strategy for an Election and then a referendum has gone t#ts up on them
The political landscape has changed and it is not all to Wendy's disadvantage As time will show. Still they have gone all atavistic for now it will be a while before they return to sort of normal.
233

The Strategist,

11/05/2008 16:11:21
Watching Ms Alexander today on the Politics Show I thought her attitude was extremely defensive and arrogant.

I think she has perhaps twigged that Labour are going to loose the general election and therefore she has nothing to loose by taking her own stance on the referendum issue. In other words it doesn't matter if she annoys Brown because he isn't going to be in power for much longer.
234

Jubilee,

11/05/2008 16:11:41
I think overall the SNP have not done too badly - why NS would say Wendy's position is untenable is beyond me. She should be saying that Wendy is the best person for the job and she sympathises with the mixed messages she's been receiving from her elders and betters.

A comment such as "While Labour is sorting itself out, we'll keep on governing if that's ok with you?" might be just the ticket.
235

St. George,

England. 11/05/2008 16:20:25
130.

I thought it was the English language. What is acceptable in America is not necessarily acceptable here.

Here it is 'would have'.

Would you write, "When I go out tonite to vote Labor I will wear the color red?"
236

sciura grigia,

Livingston 11/05/2008 16:29:04
Alexander has revealed herself to be an oportunistic, political adventurer by trying to "kill alex salmond's fox": instead, she has been, to stay with the fox metaphor, outfoxed by the cunning fox himself (she more than most should know what a shrewd operator Salmond is). By her actions and timing she has exacerbated the already desperate plight of the labour party in general, and Brown in particular. She is either shameless or stupid: the labour party in Scotland needs (and deserves) a more principled and less arrogant leader.
237

Jubilee,

11/05/2008 16:33:08
What SL needs is a strong willed, decisive and above all, respected leader who draws compliments from all across the political spectrum and endears herself to the media and receives little or no interference from London.

Any chance Annabel Goldie fancies a change of scene??!? >:D
238

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 11/05/2008 16:35:02
DING DONG THE WITCH (WENDY) IS DEAD! And good riddance, too!

That woman tried to do a man's work and she is just merely a disturbed, PMSing female.

She should go back to her proper place - barefoot and naked in the kitchen, available for her husband's sexual whims whenever and wherever and however he wants it.

THAT will teach her a lesson or three.
239

kimba,

11/05/2008 16:37:05
286. Salmond is more sneaky than shrewd,he spews arrogance each time he opens his provocative mouth!
240

kimba,

11/05/2008 16:38:43
288. Nothing happening in canada then!
241

Fairfax,

11/05/2008 16:43:27
AM2 (278): "My mind's eye just ran a flashback-style movie . . ."

Does this mean you're a Mr Eugenides reader also?
242

kimba,

11/05/2008 16:43:50
Hi meths,indeed he is,but one day he will get his comeuppence.
243

kimba,

11/05/2008 16:46:11
292. you are getting boring,please change the record,you are also a lying rat.
244

kimba,

11/05/2008 16:49:33
METHS. Agree,but what scottish labour must remember is what doesn't kill them will make them stronger!
245

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 16:53:20
297. Kimba

quite right - except for the stuff that doesn't kill them but does leave them hideously weakened, a rotten decomposing mass of hypocrisy and postuting exposed for all to see.
246

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11/05/2008 16:58:37
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,

11/05/2008 17:01:13
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 17:04:46
Stand clear, Kimba is getting angry

http://www.3dvalley.com/gallery/d/43-2/FatMan.jpg
249

,

11/05/2008 17:06:38
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,

11/05/2008 17:09:47
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11/05/2008 17:16:44
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Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 17:19:39
#283 Meths

All political parties and leader's in all nations like to wave the Flag so everybody gazes. adoringly.......Meanwhile with the people distracted they can pick your pockets a little bit more.


You could ask how a labour party a labour party takes money from the poor to give to the rich.........I couldn't possibly comment.
253

kimba,

11/05/2008 17:25:12
Kimb'a.Imitation is the best form of flattery,YOU REALLY ARE TWA BUBBLES AFF THE CENTRE.
254

,

11/05/2008 17:26:50
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255

,

11/05/2008 17:28:25
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11/05/2008 17:29:59
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11/05/2008 17:30:00
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 17:32:42
310. Traquir

indeed, I, like you, am always prepared to enage in sensible discussion on here with any and all, and I respect differing opinions, but for the odious and obvious trolls like Kimbaya, Happy and Truly English, Ciderman etc, I feel we are to be allowed a bit of sport with them, as that is all they are good for.
259

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11/05/2008 17:35:31
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Publius,

Wimbledon Common on my boss's all-singing, all-dan 11/05/2008 17:39:01
Wendy says bring on the referendum. Let's have the referendum in 2009. No says Alex. We'll have the referendum in 2010: it is a matter of fundamental principle not to have a referendum in 2009. It's all good old-fashioned tweedledum/tweedledee politics.

I always knew Wendy was about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I now know that Alex isn't any better.

The Scotsman once said that Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond were the two finest Scottish politicians of their generation. Brown's down. Salmond's next.
261

Publius,

Wimbledon Common Boss's super wireless gizmo 11/05/2008 17:41:17
#309 MBA means b.gg.r all
262

kimba,

11/05/2008 17:43:21
KIMB'A.PLEASE CARRY ON,your immature behavior is showing what childish mentality some scots have.
263

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11/05/2008 17:44:27
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264

Publius,

Wimbledon Common 11/05/2008 17:45:21
#279 Nikostratos

Good post. Agree with everything you write.

Have you noticed that recent polls give the Tories more votes in Scotland - not a lot but enough to give them a few more seats at Westminster and wipe the smiles of Labour's and SNP's faces.
265

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 17:46:26
317. Publius

what a meaningless post. The SNP had 2010 in their manifesto - and were elected. Labour have criticised the SNP for not keeping manifesto committments, but want this one junked?

Wendy Alexander said last month " a referendum is not a question for any serious thinking politician" - George Foulkes, Labour MSP said "Labour will oppose the SNP referendum plans at every turn". Wendy also said in Feb 2008 "every second spent on a referendum is a distraction from the serious issues of health and education".

And you, Publius, think the SNP should have taken Wendy seriously, when she was last month rubbishing a referendum, and when her leader, Gordon, was also rubbishing her and the referndum?

Wendy said on Tuesday last week that Gordon Brown backed her referendum now plan. On Wednesday he said he did not. Yesterday Gordon Brown slapped it down completely. And you think the SNP should take this seriously?

Please explain why the SNP should have changed its manifesto plans, on the basis of the schizoid, opportunistic, lying, bizarre performance from Labour this week?
266

kimba,

11/05/2008 17:46:44
314. How about we have a bit of sport with the nats,like making sure they NEVER get their wish for independence.
267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 17:48:03
321. Nope, Publius, no polls give the Tories any significant increase. Have you had too much sun today wombling about the common, picking up and buying into the everyday trash that Labour leave behind?

268

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11/05/2008 17:48:40
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 17:49:22
323. Would help if you were registered entirely to vote in Scotland, rather than the current situation of your enormous rippling stomach being registered in the Borders and yoru triple chins registered in Stockton.
270

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11/05/2008 17:51:21
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BIG EYE,

Paisley 11/05/2008 17:51:33
I ahve just returned from watching the football in a pub in Paisley and people are just laughing at Wendy and the Labour Party.

They don't take any of them seriously anymore and can't believe how inept they are.

The by product of all this is a new admiration for the civil servants who helped disguise how hopeless they were for all these years. Civil servants who must have breathed a sigh of relief last May and they inherited an SNP Government with real talent at last.

As far as I can see Wendy and her brother will not be with us much longer. Paisley will speak for Scotland!

272

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11/05/2008 17:54:26
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Publius,

Wimbledon Common 11/05/2008 17:54:58
#322 Ayrshire Scot

Youre missing it. The SNP manifesto said that 2010 was a 'likely' time, not the only time. 2009 is only a year different (perhaps a lot less depending on when in 2009 and when in 2010).

More to the point the SNP won't get a referendum at all unless it can get a sizeable number of MSPs from other parties to vote for one. Wendy offered Alex the chance and Alex turned it down.
274

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 11/05/2008 17:56:58
Publius

Keep up.

You say:
"We'll have the referendum in 2010: it is a matter of fundamental principle not to have a referendum in 2009". Was that a quote from Salmond or YOUR spin?

Who knows what Wendy wants? If she hadn't opened her mouth last week, there would probably be no referendum in 2008, 2009, 2010, or 2011. There would not have been enough support in the Scottish Parliament to have one. Now it's her who will be subject to a 'bluff' when the referendum question is put to Parliament. My theory is that by that time Wendy will be long gone, SLAB will have a new leader, and they will be too "yellow" to live up to their current stance.

The Scottish Government have stuck to their manifesto, with a White Paper, with good reasons, and no U-turns. How then can you compare Salmond's position with Alexander's or Brown's who have both shown contempt for the people of Scotland. Miles apart in terms of judgement and popularity.
275

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 17:57:23
329. Being a joke, widely held in low estem (for example a minus 29% approval rating and being 73% behind) has not disqualified the Bendiest of Bendys Wendy so I ask why the Mount Kimatard is to be disqualified on that basis?
276

Publius,

Wimbledon Common 11/05/2008 17:59:34
324 Ayrshire Scot™

Check the area breakdown in the YouGov poll published in the Sun. That gives the Tories 21 per cent, enough for 7 seats in Scotland or thereabouts.

http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/sun%20results%20080508.pdf
277

Publius,

Wimbledon Common 11/05/2008 18:02:23
# 331 Andrew BOD


Your write "There would not have been enough support in the Scottish Parliament to have one. Now it's her who will be subject to a 'bluff' when the referendum question is put to Parliament. My theory is that by that time Wendy will be long gone, SLAB will have a new leader, and they will be too "yellow" to live up to their current stance."

Exactly. That's why Alex should have seized the moment. It might never happen again.
278

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:06:25
330. Publius

Please explain why someone who said last month "a referednum is not a question for any serious thinking politician" should be taken seriously last week, given she has recanted this weekend?

Please explain why someone who said two months ago "every second spent on a referendum is a distraction from the serious issues of health and education" should have been taken seriously last week given she has reversed, again, her position this weekend?

The SNP said 2010 because they wanted a debate on the issues, via the national conversation - which seems mature.

Labour have now established the comptence of the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum (which they said it did not have last year) and their support for a referendum. Good stuff
279

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:08:03
334. Labour MSP Duncan McNeil said "Labour MSPs will not vote down any referendum bill" - having conceded the competence of the SP on this, and having demanded a referendum, Labour have conceded the principle.
280

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:09:07
333. That is based on 140 people. Check all national Scottish polls over past 6 months - Tories on 13-15%

281

,

11/05/2008 18:15:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
282

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 18:18:22
Publius why are you hanging around on Wimbledon common?
283

k i m b a,

11/05/2008 18:18:58
2 rite we all talks like this coz we like to keep it in the family FACT!!!!!
284

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:20:47
340. Making good use of the things that he finds, the things that serious thing politicians leave behind
285

Publius,

Wimbledon Common (but going back to my flat soon) 11/05/2008 18:20:59
#338 Ayrshire Scot
Never mind the quantity of the sample. Feel the quality of YouGov as opposed to organisations like Progressive Scottish Opinion that are not really political pollsters.
Also never mind the last six months. The fieldwork for this poll was 7/8 May 2008.
286

k i m b a,

11/05/2008 18:21:12
I am half scottish cos my nan likes dog ging in dundee LOL!!!!
287

Thistledhu,

Fife 11/05/2008 18:23:24
so the labour party in Scotland is a credeible free acting political movement?
fit for porpose fit for goverment.
and these people have had the backing of scotlands media includeing the scotsmen for years. anyone remember the anti snp screaming headlines the day of the election?. if they had acheaived what they hoped for wendy (or psssibly still jack mcconnel) would be in power scary thought indeed
288

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:24:09
343. Begone.
289

Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 18:25:28
#336 Meths

I assume this nothing to do with Mr levy's book launch tomorrow.......surely not?££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££
290

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 11/05/2008 18:27:22
Publius

If things follow the way they have been going lately, AS will get a mandate for a referendum at the next Scottish Election, with more support for independence, regardless of whether the 2010 proposal fails or not.

The people will have then had the time to think about this very important constitutional question with which Wendy's been playing silly games.
291

Publius,

Walking back to car 11/05/2008 18:27:51
#335 Ayrshire Scot

Have you not noticed that politicians often abandon their principles? The Labour party spent most of the 20th century arguing for public ownership, and privatised air traffic control. In the 1975 the SNP campaigned against the Common Market in the referendum. Now it can't wait to get involved with the EU.
So why shouldn't Wendy or anyone else change their mind?
292

Thistledhu,

11/05/2008 18:28:40
Publius seem to remember you saying that wendy alexanders stance proves that the labour party in scotland does not take orders from westminster what do you say now?
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:30:25
347. We assume that if the following accounts in books are untrue Gordon will sue or they would not have been written without sound basis:

- Prescott saying Brown "sobbed silently in meetings" and was naaoying, pricly and weird. Prescott uring Blair to sack Brown.

- Cherie Blair saying Brown "rattled the keys" above Blair's head and engaged on a systematic campaign

- Brown knowing about the loans and fundraising he denied knowing about
294

Publius,

Back in car about to turn off super wireless gizm 11/05/2008 18:30:45
#348
SNP may well win Scottish election in 2011, but I can't see it winning an overall majority. Also by then political environment may be different - Tory government at Westminster, rows about LIT at home.

Signing off for half an hour. Driving back to flat via Chinese chippie.
295

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:34:02
349. If you cannot argue seriously, begone. Wendy said LAST MONTH " a referendum is not a question for any serious thinking politician". This month, briefly, she wanted one.

She said on Tuesday Gordon Brown backed her. On Wednesday he did not.

She said on Friday she wanted to introduce a bill for a referendum. The next day she says it was all a joke.

Labour gave up the politics and principles of a life-time in a couple of years. Wendy's positions do not last a lunch time. Now begone. if you cannot, as it seems argue seriously, I suggest you chat to Kimba. Cheers
296

Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 18:41:17
#351 spooky

The labour party like the conservative party have been finished time after time but they keep coming back from the dead.............

The snp haven't had enough time in power to betray their supporters. But they will get their in the end they all do.
A bit of office,dash of power some rubbing shoulder's with the wealthy and influential and goodbye morality.
works on all parties and politicians always has always will.
297

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:43:40
358. Meths - please.... Publius is a fakey troll. The only hand held device he had whilst he was chatting with us while on "Wimbledon common" before getting in his car was microscopic.

298

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 18:46:09
right wee fifer

have been thinking about what you said and its rubbish. sorry but it is.

So what you said is that wendy is standing up to brown because she wants more autonomy for labour in scotland.

Okay lets say your right.

So wendy wants more control more power if you like for scottish labour.

So therefore wendy is happy to accept power from london for scottish labour but yet she is not happy for the scottish people to have the same thing.

Is wendy incapable then of walking tall within westminster london labour without walking out?

I thought from what you were saying she had staged a mass breakout. So either I am wrong and you are correct and shes "standing up to brown"

or i am correct and shes been slapped back into place.
part of labour united.
299

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:46:38
360. What an advert for Labour corruption.
300

Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 18:50:31
spooky you could be in 'gladiators' as the 'Blob' he he he
301

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:54:15
363. Meths - yes, indeed, but the Publius character is just that - a "character" - behold his mighty morphin power shifting politics, all somewhat or very anti-SNP while claiming to be an SNP voter, He is an AM2/ fakey type. Today's postiong from "Wimbledon common - give me 30 minutes" crap was the last straw in a dung heap of his crap. He should be derided or ignored.
302

Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 18:54:50
#365 Ayrshire


"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
303

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:57:42
370. And when you became old and demented Niko, you started posting with senile demtia.
304

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 18:59:11
372. Meths, well sussed. His "Gizmo" that lets him post from "Wimbledon common"? He is a fake, a crap talker, a posturing mountebank and an AM2-type moniker.

305

Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 19:00:33
#367 spooky

This is what you look like

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/07/Blobm.PNG/250px-Blobm.PNG
306

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 19:00:34
378. It was the spelling of dementia with sensitivity to Niko who has it.

307

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 19:02:40
379. Perhaps. It is not a question for a serious thinking person though, so he probably has. Oh, no, changed my mind, he hasn't.
308

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

11/05/2008 19:12:38
Maybe this is why the unionist eunuchs are spooked. 84% in favour of Scottish Independence. BRING IT ON !!!!!!
http://tinyurl.com/4gt8uh
309

Thistledhu,

Fife 11/05/2008 19:13:58
As we speak in a darkly light room at the back of the labour club labour party councilers, mp,s and msp's with shop sterwards adding to the huddle are planing out a stuning strategy to regain the political control of scotland.

The shop stewards are pleading for it to be kept simple with no big words involved.

The councilers want to know who's round it is?

The MSP'S think maybe a plan that lasts longer than half an hour might be the way forward.

The MP's want to know firstly is there a back entrance so they can leave unseen.

are they all sure john reid is still at celtic park and not likely to burst in on them.
but most importantly of all that if the need arises
they go to the toilets in pairs and only if gordon Brown has said they can do so in front of at least three witness's
310

Nikostratos,

11/05/2008 19:28:13
#385 spooky

But not when you get 'Angry' Grr!

#389

How the hell did you get in on our meeting I shall notify security of this lapse.............

311

kimba,

11/05/2008 19:29:50
344. You really are a rats ar-e,i'm half scottish because my dad wanted to make a decent life for himself,away from losers like you.
312

Thistledhu,

11/05/2008 19:35:16
Nikostratos, it was easy i payed this strange looking lassie £999 and she said fine no one needs to know in you come
313

Publius,

London 11/05/2008 19:53:23
#379 Methalions

I do have one, but only for today. The boss lent it to me. He picked it up on a trip to the Far East. All I know about it is that it's a Samsung and it hasn't been put on sale yet.
It seems to work OK, but it's pretty directional. You have to move it around to get the best signal.
I was scared it would get nicked. That's why I stopped at a chippie on the way back to the flat: on a Sunday you can park by the door at this chippie. Anyway it goes back to the boss tomorrow.
314

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 19:55:50
398. Begone,
315

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 19:58:53
.
316

Eve,

11/05/2008 20:15:12
She added: "The SNP can never again claim that a 'unionist cabal' is denying Scotland a voice. The SNP party colour is yellow and we now know why."
317

Eve,

Scotland 11/05/2008 20:17:22
Wedy said: "The SNP can never again claim that a 'unionist cabal' is denying Scotland a voice. The SNP party colour is yellow and we now know why."

I always thought that the SNP clouor was yellow because it was easy on the eyes unlike the clour red, which can sometime be harsh on the eyes.
318

Eve,

Scotland 11/05/2008 20:18:44
What happen there, I wasn't ready to post at comment #402!

Something appears to have a mind of it's own!!!
319

WL,

livingston 11/05/2008 20:35:05
prescott and cherie blair are doing more damage to the unionist labour party than they want to do. But that is fine for an independent Scotland.
320

Saoghal Beag,

11/05/2008 21:13:23
Oh Kimba, aren't you a naughty litte girl calling Traquair names, but then again it distracts from the discusion about labour's demise in scotland. the geordies and mackas still voting for the defunct party though, keep up the good work lass.
321

Jim P,

Netherlands 11/05/2008 21:14:47
Wendy performs today - go to about half way along the tape.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/politics_show/6508857.stm

Note: Gordon Brown is the Leader in Scotland as well as elsewhere.

Also, Wendy and David Cairns defends the recent policy announcement with " you move at a time when you think you command support".

On the other hand, the SNP and the First Minister wants to move "at a time, place and manner of his choosing".

Nae wonner Glen Campbell was laughing at the end of this one.
322

Saoghal Beag,

11/05/2008 21:20:09
and credit where creidt is due, broon didn't humilate the wide mouthed frog of holirood any more than she had already managed to do herself. not fair gordie taking credit for that,
323

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 21:22:56
The sheer speed of the Labour implosion defies belief. Maybe Blair wasn't quite as bad as I thought he was, if he managed to hold together this bunch of incompetents.

Unfortunately, I can't imagine them being _quite_ so bad in around two years, when then big decisions happen (general election plus referendum on independence).

Still, I hope they get their comeuppance for a decade of waste, incompetence, sleeze and missed opportunities. Hopefully Labour will be out of power for a generation.
324

Alberto.,

11/05/2008 21:41:50
Cannot help but think, from the experience so far, that Bklair, Brown and Wendy Alexander must qualify 'outstandingly' as the worst leaders of any part of New - or Old, Labour Party ever!

I may be wrong - but surely I must be close!!!
325

Lillig,

11/05/2008 21:54:58
This is a shocking justification for self-rule for Scotland.

How can we trust any of the Westminster politicians to do what is right for Scotland?

As usual we are just a political pawn in the hands of the big parties who don't give a damn about the Scottish people, their needs and hopes or future!

We have to go our own way without the English government and turn our backs on the joke that is Wendy Alexander, and the turncoat Brown.

Freedom!!!
326

sacrebleu,,

11/05/2008 22:08:25
So Wendy proposed a referendum - and her only major backer was... Michael Forsyth ??? With friends like that, Wendy, it really is time to go !
327

Joseph Bailey,

Maryville, Tennessee, USA 11/05/2008 22:25:20
I find this fascinating reading. Is the drive for Scottish independence that strong? I have Scottish roots and hope to travel there someday.
328

Publius,

London 11/05/2008 22:34:24
#379 Methalions

P.S. One drawback. The battery went flat after an hour.
329

Publius,

London 11/05/2008 22:42:52
411 FedUpTaxPayer

You write "Unfortunately, I can't imagine them [Labour] being _quite_ so bad in around two years, when then big decisions happen (general election plus referendum on independence)."

Labour probably will be just as disorganised in 2010. But remember a lot of things will happen in the same period - UK election, Scottish election, referendum, arrival of LIT (if it gets off the ground.

Two things are happening down here already - massive revival of Tories, taxpayers' revolt (not just ten percent people, but big business threatening to move offshore, anti parking charge movements, anti car tax. Both of these will spill over into Scotland.
330

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 22:47:40
17. Andy - what a odd character you are , I note you didn't explain why you think Wendy's comments are credible, or explain why you invest credibility in these comments-

"a referednum is not a question for any serious thinking politician" Wendy Al;exander, Mrch 08

"every second spent on a referendum is a distraction from the serious issues of health and education"
Wendy Alexander, Feb 08

should we have taken seriously these remarks last week given she has reversed, again, her position this weekend?
331

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/05/2008 22:48:26
419 for Andy at 417

332

WL,

livingston 11/05/2008 23:07:16
#409
Gordon Brown is a leader of what: a flock of sheep going to the slaughter house?
333

Jude The Obtuse,

it's a big toon cooncil not a government 11/05/2008 23:45:17
At last! The BBC has fixed the Real Player stream and I’ve seen the Politics Show.

Much as I hate to admit it, the Paisley fishwife put up a robust argument. David McLetchie was a credible performer too.

My real thanks go to Fiona Hyslop for pointing me in the direction of Annex B.

http://tinyurl.com/6aur9m

When the proposed salmonderendum takes place, the Ballot Paper will contain two choices:

“I AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with
the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an
independent state.”

OR

“I DO NOT AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a
settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland
becomes an independent state.”

"I DO NOT AGREE . . ." would save a lot of time and money.

Negotiating a settlement brings to mind visions of a camel being threaded through the eye of a needle!
334

Phillip,

12/05/2008 05:19:16
What a bizarre week this has been. If this had been written for a short story or a television show the entire plot would have been laughed at because it was too nonsensical to be believed. And yet here it is, right in front of us. The truth is so much stranger than fiction.

335

Graeme2,

Aberdeen 12/05/2008 12:21:29
What a week! I have not enjoyed Scottish politics so much for a considerable time. The downright lies, total deceit, self deception, where will it all end I keep asking myself!
I just had to look at the "Scottish Labour" website as they had piqued my interest; what did i find? seems they have yet to differentiate themselves from "Labour". The word "Scottish" seems to be mentioned between gritted teeth! So I will not be returning there for a long time!
Wendy was supposed to have the "brain a size of a planet"? unfortunatly it seems to more like our moon, dead, devoid of life, desolate, grey...
336

Dr Egg,

Doon her pants 13/05/2008 08:59:14
Imagine playing games with an entire country just to "further your career"? Wicked, wicked Wendy...
337

mesmiths,

fife 16/05/2008 16:29:45
AND THIS WAS THE FIGHTBACK!!?!
WHEN'S THE NEXT ONE BENDY?
338

S MacLeod,

16/05/2008 21:03:52
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kK6LkpfZ94s

 

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