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Tories back vote on independence

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Published Date: 17 June 2007
By EDDIE BARNES
POLITICAL EDITOR
A REFERENDUM on Scottish independence could be held as early as next year after a dramatic move by Conservative leaders to support the historic poll.
The party's vice-chairman has publicly backed a referendum as soon as possible to "clear the air" over Scotland's constitutional future.

Several Tory MSPs are backing the move, claiming the poll - which is likely to reject independence three to one - would "shoot the Nationalists' fox".

Conservative supporters of the plan believe it is essential to kill off the independence issue to reassure businesses and potential investors that Scotland has a stable future, while also giving them a chance to set the "positive case" for the Union.

The move, which has caused widespread astonishment at Holyrood, was last night welcomed by First Minister Alex Salmond.

The Nationalists have promised a referendum on independence within the term of the Parliament but the mathematics of Holyrood make it impossible for them to push through the necessary law on their own.

The backing of the entire Tory group, Greens and the one independent MSP would give them a majority.

Conservative supporters of the plan insist that a vote on independence is necessary to provide stability for the country. It comes amid claims that investors are already being turned off Scotland because of uncertainty about its future. The Tory calls for a referendum were led by the party's vice-chairman, Richard Cook. He told Scotland on Sunday: "I'm personally in support of a referendum bill at the earliest possible opportunity, to remove the uncertainty already being created to business.

"There are plenty of business people who are delaying taking business decisions at the moment, and that is jeopardising Scottish jobs and wealth creation in Scotland."

He added: "My position is that we should be making the positive case for the Union, not the negative case for independence. We are talking about the things that are bad rather than the things that are good about the Union at present."

There is increasing concern among Tories on both sides of the Border that a Nationalist government in Edinburgh, combined with a surge of English resentment south of the Border, is pulling the Union apart.

Last week, former Scottish Secretary Michael Forsyth warned there was a "worm of separatism" eating at "the heart of the Union".

Cook said: "The SNP is engaged at present in wonderful media management. There is a push towards independence in Scotland and it is also there in England, where you have the national TV news talking about how Scots are getting free this and free that.

"We have to make the positive case for the Union. The whole nation benefits. We should be setting out that position. The positive case is not being made."

Conservative support for the SNP would ensure that such a referendum could go ahead. The SNP is committed to publishing a bill setting up the referendum within the first 100 days of gaining office. Along with Tory support, the SNP could also bank on the votes of the two Greens and independent MSP Margo MacDonald, giving them 66 of the Parliament's 129 votes.

The Scots Tory leader Annabel Goldie is reluctant to support the idea, but she is now coming under pressure from several of her own MSPs and party activists to swing behind it.

The issue is understood to have been raised at recent party meetings, including at least one attended by Goldie herself. One Conservative MSP said last night: "We should definitely support the SNP's referendum. The sooner the better, because it will help clear the air."

Another added: "A referendum would shoot the Nationalists' fox. They would lose and the whole issue of independence would be off the radar for 20 years."

The drive also has the support of Tory MPs south of the Border close to party leader David Cameron. One said: "I would totally back this idea. It sounds eminently sensible."

The most recent polls have suggested that only around one in four Scots would back a move to full independence. Tory backers of a referendum therefore believe there would be little danger of them losing a vote.

A spokesman for Goldie said: "Annabel does not back a referendum. The party position has not changed from during the election. We are solely interested in getting on with bread and butter issues."

A source close to Salmond said: "We welcome growing interest for the concept of an independence referendum. The key issue is that a referendum offers people the right to choose Scotland's future, which is why it is such a popular policy."

Polls have shown that around 60% of Scots back the idea of holding an independence referendum.

Tory supporters of the move believe it would also help restore their image north of the Border, which they think is still suffering from their party's opposition in 1997 to a referendum on devolution, which allowed opponents to cast them as anti-Scottish.

Even though they would be campaigning against independence, they believe backing a referendum on the matter would ensure the public sees them as "pro-Scottish" and "pro-Union".

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1

Anna Matronic,

17/06/2007 00:24:26

Great to see the Tories seeing sense. Let's have the referendum. If the Scots vote no, so mote it be.

Don't the lib's look like absolute fools now. Fancy publicy denying the people the right to choose their future.

I believe the referendum will be a positive move for Scotland, regardless of the result. Let the people engage with the running of the country.

Vote YES for an independent Scotland.

2

Simon_Wallace,

17/06/2007 00:28:31

A welcome move. With the SNP showing themselves to be capable and assured in government, this will help their cause. Be interesting to see a referendum vote when it happens.

3

The Strategist,

17/06/2007 00:35:08

Vote yes but not yet.. Next year is too early. It's much better to wait at least a couple of years and preferably until after the next UK general election.

If the Tories win that election then the result is much more likely to be a "Yes" because of Scotland's general horror of them. If Labour win it then there there will also be a Scottish revolt because it would show the English as being fickle.

Two to three years will also give the SNP a good chance to show the difference they can make in Scotland..

Patience in this case would be a definite virtue.

4

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/06/2007 00:35:37

It's early days.

5

Am Balach,

Skye 17/06/2007 00:39:47

With the Tories and London Liberals (and many Labour MPs) probably coming out to support a referendum to some sort of European consitution next week (which Blair wants to sign) it puts the LibDems here in an even bigger hole.

#2 Simon_Wallace "Be interesting to see a referendum vote when it happens." This may well be the biggest understatement in the history of Scotland.

6

Brian S,

LONDON 17/06/2007 00:44:59

Who will be eligible to vote?

Having lived in England for 10years I'd better start looking at getting on the electoral roll in Scotland.

Oh and I'll be voting YES!

7

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 17/06/2007 00:45:53

So Cook wants to state a "positive case" for the union. What a novel idea.

On several occasions on these boards I have asked unionist posters to do just that. Interestingly nobody has yet tried their hand at it. Can't imagine why!

So around the magic roundabout goes one more time. Lets hear it from you unionists out there. Try putting a positive case for the union.

8

Target,

Earth 17/06/2007 00:47:07

What about them Lib Dems then?
Diddies or what?
0/10 for tactics guys !!

9

Gareth,

Ottawa 17/06/2007 00:48:52

I would be glad to see a Referendum take place, regardless of its outcome. The SNP has got off to a glorious start as Scotland's new Government, and regardless whether people feel ready for independence right now, even within the devolution framework the SNP administration is a much-needed breath of fresh-air.

My only worry is that a No vote would be read by the Labour party as some sort of victory on their part. Those guys, despite losing, remain filled with smug righteousness, I think they need another good drubbing or two before they finally get the message that Scotland is not their property.

10

Gareth,

Ottawa 17/06/2007 00:52:36

Ordinarily Scots who don't live in Scotland aren't allowed to vote in the Scottish elections because they're considered local/domestic, British citizens who live abroad are only allowed to vote in General Elections.

...The referendum though creates a unique situation, personally I think anyone born in Scotland, regardless where they might be in the world, should have the right to vote in this referendum, along with anyone who currently lives in Scotland, regardless where they've come from.

11

Bodach beag,

Skye 17/06/2007 00:56:26

I hear that Labour are offering a deal to Plaid Cymru of more powers for the Welsh Assembly, equivalent to what we have in Scotland, in return for coalition.

A referendum will be necessary.

Yet a referendum in Scotland will send our economy in to a maelstrom of decline.

We've dipped our toe, the water's warm, now let's take the plunge.

12

Anna Matronic,

17/06/2007 00:59:09

I can just picture Nicol now.

He'll be right off his bacon and eggs this morning.
It just goes to show..you don't need a long neck to look a goose.
The Tories have to be congratulated on this move. It should go a long way to improving their standing with the Scots electorate.

13

Archie MacT,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 01:08:51

Its is interesting to hear people calling the SNP's start 'assured' and 'glorious'. what planet are you guys on? Avoiding votes in the Parliament and announcing a few populist policies is pure spin. Hardly a well thought through programme of government.

On the referendum thing. Personally I think it would be a great idea if i had any confidence the SNP would take a defeat on the chin and stop complaining. They won't. So really it's a waste of time. We had an election recently with a strong nationalist party standing. They got 33% of the vote. Hardly suggests there is a burning desire for independence does it.

14

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 17/06/2007 01:11:02

Great news!

Please listen to #3 Dick though. Patience is important. The referendum should be on Scotlands time, not the suddenly change of heart tories.

What about the Lib Dem's though. Total losers.

The electorate who voted for them may as well have voted for a phone box.

Seriously though, as a native born Scot, that did all my schooling in Scotland. I am dual citizen,and an EU passport holder. Should I maybe not get a vote.

Say as much as a non-Scot now living in Scotland, and maybe owning a home there.

Just a question.

Cheers.

15

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 17/06/2007 01:16:25

#14, in this day and age people as you know are very mobile. So does just living in Scotland give one a vote in a referendum.

Seriously. Why would you deny an EU passport holder (GB) designation. Born, educated and still with close family in Scotland, and a small business owner there, a vote?

Thanks.

16

saltire.1,

Moray 17/06/2007 01:18:14

Jesus never thought i would ever say this
Well done the tories

17

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 17/06/2007 01:19:02

I may be in favour of an independence referendum, but only if it happens immediately rather than the SNP's plan to delay the referendum until 2010.

The reason being knowing there is going to be a referendum but not until 2010 would put off business, regardless of whether they think independence would be good or bad for Scotland. Although obliviously if it were held then it would likely be more resoundingly crushed as the SNP would have been in government for 3 years.

So if the SNP come forward with proposals as they say they will to have a referendum in 2010 I will be against however if the Tories can get Salmond to agree to a much closer date I will be tempted to support, knowing that with support for independence at just 21% it will be defeated.

18

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 17/06/2007 01:21:13

# 14 master-mariner, at sea

Why should Gareth, let us suppose Scots, born and brought up in Scotland, who happens to be somewhere else at the moment, not have a vote on the future of his country?

Just because he, let us say, happens to be living in Canada at the moment, or Spain, or the Middle East, doesn't make him Canadian, Spanish, or an Arab.

Whisper to me, if you are "at sea" does that make you a mermaid, or the male equivalent?

19

Brian S,

LONDON 17/06/2007 01:28:23

#14
For your information all my English chums now my position on the Union. That does not make me anti-English. I work for a multi-national company who's European office happens to be in London.

Don't try to twist my beliefs into something they are not. I believe the English should have their own Parliament and independence just as much as Scotland.

20

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 17/06/2007 01:30:09

"There are plenty of business people who are delaying taking business decisions at the moment, and that is jeopardising Scottish jobs and wealth creation in Scotland."

I suppose I would certainly clear up any uncertainty since Alex Salmond has said that there would only be a referendum at most once a genaeration

21

Eric,The Viking, (AKA...pict,,/,,Trojan )),

East Kilbride 17/06/2007 01:33:17

Don't worry, Darryl...

Alex will choose his moment very, very, very carefully.

Not too soon.... not too late.

But you can be sure of one thing.

When he does.....

We will be ready.

22

Colin P,

17/06/2007 01:35:39

If the Tories, Greens and Margo support the proposed referendum, they would do so knowing that the SNP proposal was for after the 3rd year of their mandate.
Let's suppose for a moment that they do support that date. Let's also suppose that they actually work together with the Executive to make Scotland stronger and capable of standing on her own two feet(sort of like independent) up to the time of said referendum. Will they accept the results of the referendum if, having done such a wonderful job running the country, they find the public agree by voting for independence?
This is not as far fetched as you might imagine..... who, back in 1999, would have thought that within 10 years, Scotland would have voted in a Nationalist government?
And before all the nay-saying unionistas start on me, your parties gave the SNP their mandate by not shutting them down. Now, get over it and support Scotland and not your fragile egos.

23

Eric,The Viking, (AKA...pict,,/,,Trojan )),

East Kilbride 17/06/2007 01:35:58

And we will win.

24

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 17/06/2007 01:37:07

This could be a very smart move by the Tories.

The SNP know this will be their only opportunity to get a referendum this parliament, but they know it will go against them if it is held to soon but would they really oppose an earlier vote.

I am sure the Tories would only agree to a vote if it was much sooner than 2010, with their main concern being uncertainty they would not want to create more.

So the SNP will be left with a choice of supporting a referendum which they know they will lose or opposing a referendum and alienating a huge portion of their vote.

25

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 17/06/2007 01:39:23

#23

My point is it may not be at a point of their choosing.

imagine The Tories and Labour supported a Tory bill to have a refendum.

The SNP would have no choice but to go ahead and lose.

26

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 17/06/2007 01:43:52

#25

The SNP proposal would have that date, but any other party could bring forward a bill proposing an earlier date.

27

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 17/06/2007 01:47:27

# 24 master-mariner, at sea

You have raised my next point. Are you aware that there are people who don't live in the U.K., for whatever personal reason which might be work or family or whatever, who still pay tax in the U.K.? And I don't just mean people who own property in the U.K. which they have let out. No taxation without representation, did you say. Fair enough......

Then there are those who will be abroad for a temporary period of whatever duration, still paying tax in the U.K., and intending to return home in the foreseeable future. Should they be refused a say in the future of their country while the EU citizen fom, say, Poland, economic migrant - and how many thousands of these are now in Scotland - is given a vote even although he has every intention of returning home a few months late?

This is not just some simplistic question which can be answered on the basis of whether it affects your family or not. There are a lot more people with a lot more varied lifestyles involved than that. Maybe even some mermaids for all I know!

28

Willie Macleod,

Wick 17/06/2007 01:51:22

Yes we should have a referendum now, The SNP want a Tory government in Westminster before they call one , as they know Labour will never be rejected in Scotland as the Tories have been.

29

Am Balach,

Skye 17/06/2007 01:56:44

# 30

It can only be people with the right to vote in Scotland who get the vote in a referendum. Although the result will Affect the whole of the UK, most people south of the border really won't care. The biggest revelation of the recent debate on Scottish independence is that the vast majority of the English don't give two flying fannies

30

Brian S,

LONDON 17/06/2007 01:58:20

#30

I've been planning to move back home for some time. If there is going to be a referendum this bring forward my plans.

I'm only looking at it from my own position. I will leave it to the politicians to decide who's eligible to vote.

31

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 17/06/2007 02:02:05

# 33 master-mariner, at sea

I'm afraid you haven't answered the point you yourself raised anout people who pay tax in the UK although they don't live there at present. These people would hold a U.K. passport. Not a passport of the country in which they presently live.

The matter is really quite complex. There are, from memory, four different variations on residency or non residency, domiciled or non domiciled classification.

And are you really willing to give the vote to my hypothetical Polish economic migrant and not to the Scot, born and bred?

32

yorkshireman,

glasgow 17/06/2007 02:03:49

Brian S and others. I do noot expect to vote in Yorkshire why do you expect to be able to vote in Scotland, YOU DO NOT LIVE HERE, SO IT DOES NOT AFFECT YOU
As master mariner said 'No representation without taxation"'

33

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 17/06/2007 02:04:03

# 36 master-mariner, at sea.

Where I live is neither you business, nor is it relevant to the question at issue.

34

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 17/06/2007 02:06:26

# 40 yorkshireman, glasgow

You haven't answered here my points about 'No representation without taxation".

See the previous posts on that - 31, 39

35

Gareth,

Ottawa 17/06/2007 02:11:22

To clear any questions on my status, I was born and grew up in Glenrothes and did some University in Dundee. I have since emigrated to Canada 4 years ago, though am not yet a Canadian Citizen.

If a British Citizen who lives abroad can vote in any British General Election (and they can), then why should a Scot who lives abroad note vote in this Referendum? It is surely important enough not to be considered merely a local issue - Scottish Independence would change not just Britain but in time, the world.

36

Guga II,

Rockall 17/06/2007 02:11:48

#17 (AM2 in drag). How, exactly do you define an emigrant as regards being ineligible for a vote? Does your definition include English and Poles living in Scotland? if not, why not? As for your century bit, since when is this normal practice, in this or any other country?

#21 I, and most Scots, will be quite happy to give the English their independence. Apart from anything else, we are fed up subsidising them, and believe they should have to stand on their
own two feet.

As to this propaganda from the Tories that business will not invest in Scotland because of the uncertainty about the future. That is absolute garbage. They'll be telling us next that business don't invest in Ireland or any other country that has managed to divest themselves of the colonial yoke.

Finally, this figure they keep pulling out about only 25% of Scots wanting independence is probably as valid as the war stories from Bliar. None of them ever seem to publish details on how, where etc. they conducted these alleged polls. I think they might be in for a bit of a shock if we do get a referendum.

37

Brian S,

LONDON 17/06/2007 02:12:09

# What's your problem? I'm Scottish, I'm the only member of my family living outside Scotland. I'm planning to move back.

So yes it does have an impact upon me.

And what the people of Yorkshire do is their own business as far as I'm concerned.

Lets not get nasty about it, eh.

38

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 17/06/2007 02:13:48

It sure will be interesting.

Surely just because one emigrates it cannot deny them the opportunity to vote in something of such magnitude.

The European court case would be interesting.

An economic refugee from Eastern europe in Scotland six months, not a UK citizen. Given a vote.

A Scots born, EU (G.B.) passport holder, with post secondary education from a Scottish institution, with close blood relatives living in Scotland.
A business tax payer, and who's family tree can be traced back for many generations to a " wee" village on the coast. Furthermore makes on average of 1 trip "home" per year.
Who may well domicile there in the next few years.
No vote for you....

Or an English lad, transferred up from London been in Edinburgh 3 months. Sure you can vote.

What a laugh..

Take care.

39

Brian S,

LONDON 17/06/2007 02:13:56

#37

Good move as far as I'm concerned.

40

John S,

17/06/2007 02:30:30

#3 (Dick) I agree.
A referendum preferably after the next UK general election and patience in this case would be a definite virtue.

41

Guga II,

Rockall 17/06/2007 02:56:44

#50 Just so as you know, I at least can spell immigrant.

An emigrant is someone who leaves their country to settle in another. This would include English and Poles leaving their countries to come to Scotland.

An immigrant is someone who comes as a settler from a foreign country. This would also include English and Poles.

It all depends on which way you look at it.

42

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 17/06/2007 02:58:40

So the English lad votes, the next day he moves back to London, never to return.

As does the Pole back to Poland or maybe England even.

I don't expect to sway your bias against Scots in favour of immigrants, but does your slant towards non-native borns not look just a little "daft"

Till next time.

43

Auckland Arab2,

17/06/2007 03:04:01

This is truly amazing news. The thought of a referendum on independence even a few months ago was a pipe dream. Now it seems inevitable. What we need are some cool heads and we get the timing right. 2 more years of the Spin Doctors in No10 and the likelihood of the Hooray Henries in power might just cristalize people's thinking.

This is a process, one step at a time.

44

,

17/06/2007 03:12:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

Royster,

17/06/2007 03:20:29

I think this is a good idea as long as it doesn't institutionalise 'neverendums' which lead to long-term political instability.

46

Macuistean,

On the mainland 17/06/2007 03:20:39

Mr Cook says "My position is that we should be making the positive case for the Union". What is this "positive case"? England telling us we can't govern ourselves? They told India that . England telling us we are subsidised to the hilt? Lets see the books. The BBC reporting English health, English education, English football, English cricket and English crime as national news. Television giving British history lessons but missing out Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Remember the world started in 1066 and England fought WW1 and WW11. How many times do you hear English people talk about Britain? Very few in my experience. To them England is an island that we call Britain. The Union has brought us nothing but war and poverty. As an independent state we will be working for ourselves and not to fill the coffers of another country.

47

C.U. Jimmy,

17/06/2007 03:27:39

#54, This is nothing new.

A few years back I lived in East Africa, not one of the most desirable of locations at the time. I applied to join the virtually moribund local St Andrews Society, thinking I'd meet a few fellow Scots and be welcomed with open arms. Not a bit of it! I was asked to prove my Scottishness as far back as my grandparents, in order to be 'considered' for membership.

By contrast, in Asian countries, virtually anyone professing an interest in Scotland can and does join their local society - and those societies thrive.

I can't help wondering if the African attitude is a sad microcosm of what an independent Scotland would look like.

48

Willie Macleod,

Wick 17/06/2007 03:28:31

#54 So explain what was life like for ordinary Scots before 1707

49

Euan404,

17/06/2007 03:53:51

While it does seem a little early to be arguing about who should or shouldn't be able to vote, it seems pretty obvious that it'll come down to whoever happens to be on the relevant electoral rolls. If you've been living elsewhere for the past decade, then no, I really can't see why you deserve a vote. If you've made your home here in the last year, then yes, the vote will affect your life, assuming you're entitled to vote normally then you should be able to do so.

50

Colin P,

17/06/2007 03:55:47

#57
I think what you saw in East Africa was the tail end of a dwindling Empire, and most definitely not modern day Scotland.

51

Dubai,

17/06/2007 03:58:51

57 was invited to a Caledonian Society bash in 1987 in Abu Dhabi. Put me off for life. Since then I have avoided large gatherings of Scots overseas.

52

Ian_,

usa 17/06/2007 04:19:05

For me, it will be great news if the tolies support the independence referendum. It's clear they'll expect the vote to against independence. I'm not so sure if the very positive start by the SNP can be maintained. It has been refreshing to have seen so many pro-Scotland decisions made by the new government.

53

Dubai,

17/06/2007 04:33:57

I hope I get a vote in a referendum. I would like to return to a different Scotland free of the Labour Bowling Club mentality.

54

NickT,

New Zealand 17/06/2007 04:35:12

A referendum would kill the nationalist fox for 20 years? But the nationalist fox is DEAD for 20 years, now - independence is decades away.
"Killing the nationalist fox" would allow the SNP to emerge as the natural party of government, unencumbered by a policy opposed by two thirds of the electorate, and robustly pro-Scottish (more so than London-tied Labour could ever be). The SNP would be free of its constitutional millstone - and crucially, as the natural party of Scottish interests it would be in a powerful position to shape opinion as a second independence referendum approached in 2028.

55

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 04:39:03

I would think that you could vote on this if your are on the electoral register in Scotland, no matter where you reside.

It is obvious that some posters on this forum cannot get there head around the concept of have dual nationality. I live in Australia and have an interest in Australian affairs. I was born in Scotland, have lived 3/4 of my life there, all my family lives in Scotland and am therefore entitled to my views in the way my country is governed.

Those that disagree with this notion are generally small minded unionist types. They seem to take the view that if you live abroad you have sold out on your people and country (and they say that nationalists are small minded isolationists!!!!)

They are of course uncomfortable with the fact that most Expats (certainly the ones I know) would be in favour of an Independent Scotland.

Viewing Ex pats in a negative way (when they disagree with your opinion) is a very narrow view of what makes the greater Scottish nation. As a country that has lost millions of people due to migration Scotland should view Ex pats as a diverse source of skills, knowledge, opinion and investment.

Denial of Ex pats worth is not a view shared in other European democracies. Italy has seneators that don't even live in Italy representing Ex-pats - type
'Nino Randazzo' into google and see what you get!

I'm Scottish, happen to live in Australia. My voice will be heard and I will vote for Independence, I will not be denied my voice Little Scotlander Unionists.

56

Dubai,

17/06/2007 04:42:06

64 2028? I was hoping this would be sorted out in my life time.

57

harrykim,

Sydney 17/06/2007 04:42:22

Agree with #15. An earlier SNP manifesto had something about the expat vote, I think.
#17 - consider how many are overseas now who might not be if we had an independent Scotland. Think Thatcher.

58

LondonScot,

London 17/06/2007 04:46:10

It seems to me that talk of "loyalties" is a mistake here.

Citizenship and nationality is not necessarilly a case of either one thing or another.

In the UK context since 1922 it has been the case that all people born in Norhtern Ireland have at birth been accorded a dual nationality (even if many chose to only recognise one).

A look at the constitutional citizenship arrangements for modern European nations such as Croatia, Finland, Greece, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy and Poland all to varying degrees recognise the wider "national" community as not just those who actually are resident int he country but also those who were born there and in most cases also their decendants down to at least the level of grandchildren (although some hold that all descendants are capable of being citizens).

I would hope that a modern independant Scotland would follow this route and enable Scots who have chosen to live outside Scotland to hold Scottish citizenship.

In the ordinary course of events the right to vote is attached to place of residence, however in something so basic (in the sense of the establishment of the state and its constitution) I would hope that it would be obvious that all persons likley to be affected by it would have the right to vote for or against.

In addtion during the centuries when Scotland has been a part of the Union it has often been the "ex-pat" who has kept the identity of Scotland and Scottishness alive around the world when it has been all to easy for non-Scots to assume that all of the area of Great Britain is "England" and all its inhabitants "English" is it really fair now to try to limit the Scottishness of such "ex-pats" in the attempts to create a modern Scottish Nation State?

As to the result of the referendum - Yes, Yes, Yes.

59

George F,

Michigan 17/06/2007 04:46:59

#24 master-mariner, you said "If there can be no taxation without representation then surly the converse applies"

Hi, I'm a Scot born and bred, I now live in Michigan, have for a while now. Your comment above is interesting, you see even though I live in Michigan all year long I have a British Passport, I pay UK income tax on both my Army pension and The pension from my last job. I also still pay into SS though I suppose tha's my choice, but saying all the above by your reasoning I should get a vote.

P.S. Not really bothered about a vote mate, just thought I'd throw my tuppence worth in.

60

Gregorf,

Tell all the people! 17/06/2007 04:48:05

especially the expats.

Wait till the Tories win south of the border and see if the Scottish electorate can stomach another 15 years of Tory rule.

61

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 04:56:25

The SNP should call this referendum when it is politically most advantageous, i.e. after they have governed and governed well for a few years, and after England votes Tory and the full horror of having Tories in government sinks into the heads of Scottish electorate.

The Tories hope of an early referendum is politically expedient for them and the unionist view. The SNP have the right to call this on their terms - when they want it and when will suit them more. The SNP received more votes than any other party in Scotland - they are in charge - why can't the unionists get there heads around this?!

62

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 17/06/2007 05:05:15

Great stuff from #65 and #68.

I believe Vancouver BC. Also has an Italian senator living in the community here.
An individual that emigrated to Canada something like forty years ago and recently ran for office in his native land.


Well done the Tories, my guess is that this will get them a significant number of votes down south, and that they have set a trap for the sheep like lib dems, and the donkey like labourites. That will be difficult to free themselves from.

Politics is great..As is this forum.

All the best.

63

Willie Macleod,

Wick 17/06/2007 05:11:20

Life pre or post 1707 it was hell for ordinary people there was no Golden Age The Clans Aristocracy churches made it so Freedom was only achieved by collective action and Solidarity

64

Ian_,

usa 17/06/2007 05:14:43

Who is this Richard Cook? Is he related to Luke Skywalker (look at the photo)?

65

employer,

glasgow 17/06/2007 05:18:06

OK you SNP supporters, you wanted a referendum lets have it now, let’s go for it. Hold on though you are scared you won’t win (Because the Majority voted against the SNP) so you don’t want it now you want 2 or 3 years of Salmond picking fights. If your case is good you should be ready tomorrow, you have been going on about it for 20 years.

Expatriates you don’t live here, Master Mariner has it right, yes of course an Immigrant can vote whilst an Emigrant can't. My family has a plan; we will sell up our business in the next 2-3 years and emigrate to Canada, and guess what? I do not expect to be able to vote if we are no longer resident.
Expats like harrykim are probably the archetypal winging pom. You have not integrated and become Australian in fact you have done what people complain about immigrants to from the Indian sub-continent doing, you have attempted to remain Scottish in a foreign country (Which to my mind is insulting to that nation) and People like Douglas Douglas accuse people of being both a "Little Scotlander" and a Unionist at the same time (oxymoron there folks). Sorry Folks no live here no vote and I for one do not care what the Italians do.

And finally if we are still here I will be voting for the Union

66

employer,

glasgow 17/06/2007 05:20:25

Oh and if you want a good social life when you are abroard join the Hash House Harriers
ON ON

67

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 05:38:00

Employer #76 and #75

- you are a prime example of little a little scotlander! - blinkered and unable to see a future outside of an English bossom, you sad person. ' I don't care what the Italians do' - kinda sums you up your view of the world I would say!

Why do you choose the name 'Employer', what is the suggestion of this name.

I too am an employer, but think it a little crass to make some sort of point out of this. I think more capital and people would flow into Scotland after Independence than out, your veiled threat is rather unsophisticated.

Please sell up, try not to slam the door when you leave.

68

Ubi,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 05:41:58

A last desperate attempt at survival by a species staring at extinction ?

69

Pete,

Paisley 17/06/2007 05:48:19

Support for Scottish independence is apathetic to say the least. Salmond had his best opportunity on May 3rd to get a mandate for his plans. Less than 60% of those eligible bothered to vote and that with Salmond promising all things to all men.
How will the SNP be viewed if they get into bed with the Tories, for whatever the reason? The Tories know that the best way for them to hole the SNP below the waterline is for some kind of alliance with them. Those same Tories realise they have no hope in Scotland, so they will be quite happy to take the SNP down too.
This is a trap for the SNP whichever way they play it. If they go into an alliance with the Tories will they will crucified by Labour and the Lib Dems and if they don't they will have turned down the opportunity of a referendum on Scottish independence and be accused of being afraid that would lose that. referendum.

70

Ian_,

usa 17/06/2007 06:01:48

#77 Dougie

Calm down. 75/76 is probably an english person either in reality or spirit who wants to wind up and put down Scots.

Those of us who have lived abroad understand how Scotland is viewed across the world as some sort of english colony. It isn't surprising that many of us become fiercely nationalist after experiencing it. I came to the US in 1980 (thanks to thatcher) and within a week I was in an argument with Americans who told me that Scotland needed england to survive.

71

howyoudoingboy,

rory's house 17/06/2007 06:06:10

if primeminister Gordon agrees then it should be done

"It comes amid claims that investors are already being turned off Scotland because of uncertainty"

beore the wild nats boyo's destroy the economy
to many freebies to many students = to much tax
bye bye jobs, homes,quality health care etc
it's time to lance this festering nationalist boil

72

James,

Dundee 17/06/2007 06:08:24

Hold until 2010, until after Cameron of Rubha nan Crann is elected, and see how the residents of Scotland like it!

Pete #79 care to inform us what percentage of UK electorate gave a mandate to the former peoples party or what is your view on the Tories getting into bed with Labour on Dundee City council?

73

LondonScot,

London 17/06/2007 06:13:42

No 75

What do you mean by "integration"?

It seems that you have a view of nationality that is predicated on an "either/or choice".

I am a European citizen by virtue of my UK, Irish and German nationality. I have never felt that I have to choose between being one or the other.

Living in London I meet people every day from countries all over the world. For some their being in London is a matter merely of expediency...they need to be here to study/work but they do not see London as in any way "home".

Others see themselves as Londoners but still identify themselves mainly as Brazilian, Ugandan or whatever.

I think that most people are capable of multiple identities in this way. Including those Scots I have met in many parts of hte world who are happy to be Australian and Scottish or American and Scottish and so forth.

It would appear that you agree with Norman Tebbit's infamous "cricket" test of Englishness (which I am sorry to admit I would fail).

Perhaps we should introduce a Scottish sausage test ( how do you prefer your sausage - flat and square or round and long) and exclude those with the "wrong" answer?

As far as I can see those with a direct Scottish link either by residence (which covers those living in Scotland wherever they were born) or by birth/descent should be eligible for Scottish nationality in an independant Scotland. Since the bringing about of that independant Scotland is the subject of the putative referndum and since it would affect those who by habitation or birth/decents would be capable of Scottish citizenship thereafter it seems to me reasonable to extend the right to vote in the creation of such a state to them.

74

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 06:17:05

"It comes amid claims that investors are already being turned off Scotland because of uncertainty"


Yep... how Ireland has suffered over the last two decades by being a small independent nation.

Why don't you fearty unionists get over yourself's?, grow yourselves some co-honies

75

howyoudoingboy,

rory's house 17/06/2007 06:17:52

#82


"SPLUT" OOER YUK!

all over then time to get on with normal life at last
whatever happened to that alec geezer?

76

employer,

glasgow 17/06/2007 06:21:47

Dougie, without getting into a slanging match, I chose employer as I felt like it. The plan to emigrate was formed at least 3 years ago and we have chosen Canada as it’s a country of immigrants where most immigrants seem to view themselves as Canadian first and not Korean, Chinese, Dutch German or whoever.

Ian so because I disagree with your view of the world I am not Scottish. That is exactly the sort of crap that the expatriate community spouts as it sits there over its whisky singing flower of Scotland with their Tartan tinted spectacles on. Ian Thatcher’s been gone nearly 20 years why did you not come back. Because you did not want to you FUD. You guys are all diddies.

You dont live here you dont vote, Come back to Scotland and you can vote.

77

T. MacIntosh,

toronto 17/06/2007 06:23:59

It is amusingly clear these anti-Scot tories hope to panic the government into holding the referendum before it is ready to.The mouse has stuck it's head out of the hole:) and it shall take the results when the government holds the referendum,when it is ready to.I get a sense of English panic at what is likely to happen when the referendum actually does happen.Statement is the referendum shall be held during the 1st government term.There is no doubt tory wants the vote before the economy can be straightened around to support an independent Scotland.The government has 4 years to do that.I get a further sense the whole plot was hatched at London by the usual inept,corrupted bunch whose conceit assumes the Scots are as dumb as they hope:).

78

puskas,

East Kilbride 17/06/2007 06:25:12

You get the impression that all nationalists whether living in Scotland or expats were banned, the British Unionists would vote for independance.

Work that one out.

79

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 06:26:13

I suspect this has more to do with recent polls in England showing Gordon Brown is gradually narrowing the gap with Cameron? In today's Times, an opinion poll shows Brown is only two percentage points behind Cameron, his previously huge lead in the polls now fast disappearing? This should not be happening to Cameron, or the English Tory Party, despiteall the virulent anti-Scottish press down
South? Here in Scotland, how many people have ever heard of the indigenous Tory Party vice-chair, who is naive enough to admit publicly that the SNP has so far managed the media better than any of the Unionist parties? The Tory Party vice-chairman is flying a political kite! We are hardly 5 minutes into the new Scottish Parliament and his claims about businesses reluctant to invest in Scotland because of political uncertainty smacks of a puppet having his strings pulled by Michael Forsyth, the last Tory Secretary of State for Scotland! Forsyth, in his attempt to slavishly emulate his heroine Thatcher by introducing alien and anti-Scottish policies, caused deep schisms in the indigenous Tory Party and sealed its political fate. To this day, the indigenous Tories are still treated like low-caste political Dalits! Forsyth made wild claims that Devolution would be fatally damaging for Scotland and lead to Independence! His reckless claims included: companies and HQs would flee the country, unemployment would rocket, private investers would go elsewhere, and Scotland would become the most heavily taxed part of the U.K.! Forsyth even stated there was the danger of Scottish Devolution leading to civil disorder! Scottish Devolved government has been existence for almost 10 years, and the Scotland Act, like the very Act of Union itself, is now enshrined in the U.K. Constitution! Forsyth's miserable "a curse on your Scottish house" forecasts have failed to materialise? Indeed, the outcome has been the very reverse! Since 1997, when the indigenous Conse

80

howyoudoingboy,

rory's house 17/06/2007 06:28:00

#84 ireland does have a majority in favour of independence also there nats are decent people
with sensible tax and spend policies

unlike the SNP £spend £spend £spend other peoples cash (MY CASH)asap world view

YOU ARE NOT A STUDENT ARE YOU

if so you are not entitled to debate with working people who pay tax

81

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 06:35:42

#90 Howyoudoingboy

'in ireland Nats are nice people'

What a fandan. Read my post again.

82

Pete,

Paisley 17/06/2007 06:36:08

James # 82

Red herring James, "Tories back vote on independence" is the headline.
I notice that you do not refute my points, what do you think, or hope what Salmond will do?

83

KD,

17/06/2007 06:42:25

Referendum- YES

Independence- NAE CHANCE

84

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 06:44:56

#86 Employer.

I wish you all the best in Canada. It is however ridiculous that you have this notion of shortbread tin ex pats.

You will find that in Canada that you can be a good Canadian by contributing to your community, creating jobs (investing in the country your millions) etc etc. This does not mean you have to hand in your identity and past at Abbotsinch. You can be Canadian and Scottish at the same time! - don't fight it - go with it!

Diversity of people is what makes Canada successful, there is a diversity of opinion and outlooks. Why can't Scotland also enjoy the rich experience, diversity and economic favour of her ex pats?

85

Pete,

Paisley 17/06/2007 06:45:03

Dougie Douglas # 84

Ireland is successful due to a large tranche of cash from Europe in the mid 1980s, I seem to recall it was near £20Billion.
There's no way that Scotland can hope for that kind of pump-priming now, particularly since the EU has expanded since those days.

86

yorkshireman,

glasgow 17/06/2007 06:46:54

Pukas you moron, whats up you scared you can not win a vote without the expats, what a pleb

87

howyoudoingboy,

rory's house 17/06/2007 06:50:18

#91

you can't fool me thats Australia

whats he like


you a geography student

88

puskas,

East Kilbride 17/06/2007 06:52:27

Interesting that some posters on these comments board are at it 24hrs daily.

Now understandably many ex-pats work from NZ 11hrs in front, and Canada variations depending whether east or west etc..

People abiding in Scotland must either be on pills or have back up.

Any of the more frequent night/day birds like to enlighten our fellow debaters.

A genuine question..

AM2 can you help please.. are you catching up on your beauty sleep ...

Mr Mariner are you down at the local boating pond at Stewartfield with a laptop during the night.

Get yourself some sleep man your performance has struggled for quite some time... Maybe worry, if so sorry to disturb..

89

James Moore,

Oahu,Hawaii 17/06/2007 06:56:32

Time for Scotland to become independent immediately!

Sick and tired of reading constant anti english ranting on these message boards from fellow scots who have a massive chip on their shoulder!

Lets see the Scottish tax payer paying for all services in Scotland now!

Scotland doesn't own England anything and neither does England to Scotland!

90

James Moore,

Oahu,Hawaii 17/06/2007 06:57:09

own = owe

91

employer,

glasgow 17/06/2007 06:57:52

Dougie The reason I have been up all night is we were waiting for my daughter in law to give birth. The phones just gone I have another Grandson.
Now given that they are coming to Canada with us in 2 - 3 years, is it fair that young Jamie should be aloud to vote on Scottish issues in 18 years time Just because he was born here? By then he will have spent 15 years in either BC or Alberta

Later people, and you only get to vote if you live here.

92

,

17/06/2007 06:57:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 714933, Article id was mapped to record!
93

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 07:01:07

#97

Do you have a point? or are you just wasting more oxygen?

#95 Pete

And how do you think Ireland was able to get this money? - because their politicians were able to put forward their case directly.

....also you say "There's no way that Scotland can hope for that kind of pump-priming now" - so we could have an economy like Irelands if we were independent back then?

What things are the Scots missing out on now unlike the irish have a loud voice.

As a rule if you are a Unionist Pete try and keep the debate away from the Irish example! (i guess you would be one of those people who 20 years ago would have pointed over to Ireland and told all nationalists that's the economic runt Scotalnd will turn into if we become independent - who wrong you were)

you want it both ways

94

puskas,

East Kilbride 17/06/2007 07:02:35

No 96. Yorkshireman.

Do you mean me ? Puskas.

If so try again. Your reply is wrong.

Work it out. Quite easy really. Look inwards to yourself and you will find the answer ... LOL ..

Always 1 or 2 or 3.. or..

95

howyoudoingboy,

rory's house 17/06/2007 07:03:33

#98pussyupussy


ever heard of the concept shiftwork in the 24/7
economy you in france or what

96

IanAyr,

Ayr 17/06/2007 07:04:14

I welcome the idea that we should vote on this issue, its interesting that the "liberal democrats" are against the people expressing an opinion one way or the other.
I think the result will "kill the SNP stone dead" in much the same way as George Robertson said devolution would.

97

Expats R us,

Ontario, Canada 17/06/2007 07:04:48

#86, employer
Sir, I don't know where you heard this about Canada, but everyone is a "something-Canadian"
This is the way immigrants hold onto their heritage and culture.
I am Scottish-Canadian, and work alongside Italian-Canadians and Chinese-Canadians.

You said "That is exactly the sort of crap that the expatriate community spouts as it sits there over its whisky singing flower of Scotland with their Tartan tinted spectacles on."
It sounds like you've been to the Celtic/Rangers clubs in the Toronto area, then.
Give your head a shake. Expats exist in Canada too. The thing is, they come from every country in the world, and they fiercely hold onto their heritage.

98

howyoudoingboy,

rory's house 17/06/2007 07:05:09

#104 point=pencil=student=i'm offski to yummy breakfast

99

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 07:07:20

#101

congrats ...another Scotsman makes an appearance!!

You are honestly emigrating at your age - why? -

most expats leave Scotland because of family (foreign partner) or 'back in the old days' because they couldn't get a job

Just curious

100

pellets,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 07:08:33

This is a vote on the union, therefore it should be a UK vote on the act of the union - ie to let Scotland get out of it and become independent. Seeing as there is so much anti-Scottish sentiment at the moment down south, I'm we would get voted 'out' of the union and therefore get what we want - independence.

101

Expats R us,

17/06/2007 07:11:12

#109 don't choke on it now

102

Expats R us,

17/06/2007 07:17:44

The SNP ran their election campaign based on the referendum being held in or after the 3rd year of their term.
For the Tories to come forward now and say they support it, this is all well and good...in 2010.

The SNP have always stood by that. I think the Unionist numpties are having trouble dealing with a party that stands by what they say, instead of the cringeworthy (copyright AM2, 2007) excuses for Scottish politicians they support.
The plan was to let the party settle into running the government and proving themselves, before they held the referendum.

Besides, what are you all so afraid of? It's a free democratic vote! To deny that is the antithesis of democracy

103

No Reel,

Borders 17/06/2007 07:18:47

Where are the Lib. Dems? Heading back to nowhere.If ever a party looked foolish they top the bill. Imagine letting themselves be sidelined by the Tories.

104

Richardinho,

17/06/2007 07:22:01

Fantastic! the sooner the better! Just having the opportunity to vote for my country to regain it's rightful independence will be brilliant!

105

employer,

glasgow 17/06/2007 07:24:32

Dougie, Easy work hard get a reasonable stand of living, but not great, I'm Catholic Wife’s CofS no problem for us but its still there in Glasgow, caught great nephews calling people f******s other day ( Wife’s side wear blue) they are only young but its still like a disease here man. Step son and daughter in law want out, better life for the kids away from this s****, violence is on the up and our parents are now dead. So we can all move.
at the end of the day you’ve seen what people are like on these boards, no tolerance anymore, we just have to get the grand kids out while we have chance to move as a family.

106

James,

dundee 17/06/2007 07:30:51

#92 I answered by saying that the SNP should wait until 2010 - as they said in their manifesto.
The SNP are in Government and have the right to set the agenda and the timetable.
By their actions not their words shall you know them. So I'd rather wait until after the next UK elections to see what the tories do.
At least the Tories are saying something, which is welcome, instead of grouching on the sidelines like the former peoples party or their stooges the non-Libs.
If the Labour party were democrats they would back a referendum....I guess they are not so confident of the outcome as you seem to think.

107

GP,

17/06/2007 07:36:31

can someone remind me what the last vote on devolution was in terms of percentages?
I think it was muhc higher than 33% for.
Bring it on.
As far as expats and voting I think this is a mine field however you can votr in UK elections without being domiciled here so that kinda muddies the waters.
What about young folk away on year breaks etc?

108

Richardinho,

17/06/2007 07:37:37

'But will SNP insist we keep voting until we get it right; and then deny further polls when we all realise our error?
'

The princible of democracy is that one years electorate cannot bind that of subsequent years.

109

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 07:42:52

#118

Those are sad reasons to leave your homeland.

The whole Central West Scotland Catholic v Protestant thing is not good. Have heard it suggested that the establishment hasn't fought this cancer as it keeps the Scots dis-united.

You could move elsewhere in Scotland where they don't religiously vote Labour and the status quo. You'll find that areas than have SNP or Liberal MSP tend to be richer, do not suffer from sectarianism, suffer less crime and are generally more enlightened.

Employer - we need people like you to make a new Scotland

110

Chaplin,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 07:43:21

104. Dougie Douglas

I wish you ex-pats would once in a while put down the whisky glass, spit out the shortbread and put on a pair of trousers. Scotland is not Brigadoon and no matter what the Nats say we are not some third world republic living under the cosh of a cruel and barbaric oppressor. In fact the last time I checked the Leading members of the Westminster government were Scots.
Employer is quite right, you dont live here, your images of what Scotland is dont exist. Why should any ex pat have a right to vote on a matter that is of no consequence to him. If you have chosen to live and work etc. in a foreign country, then you are a national of that country.
Employer, congrats on the grandson.

111

James,

dundee 17/06/2007 07:44:16

#118
Sectarianism is Scotland's secret shame, except it isn't a secret.
Repeal of the Act of Settlement for one, and positive action from nursery age onwards to remove the scourge. Oh, and no more 'blind eyes' turned to the sporting institutions who are the 'employers' of bigotry.
Sad your're going, but your offspring would have th e opportunity of being part of the solution rather than meekly accepting that they will be part of the problem.

112

Richardinho,

17/06/2007 07:47:50

re; sectarianism-who is leading the call to abolish the act of settlement?

Alex Salmond-ie. not the Labour party who have done nothing on the issue despite having ample opportunity to do so.

Labour sustain and exploit the sectarian divide for their own purposes.

113

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 07:59:53

Chaplin#123

I was in Scotland three weeks ago, I travel around quite a bit , during the same trip I was in Sweden and holland - if you think Scotland is doing well in comparison to those countries you dont get out (of the country) much

You are another little Scotlander (narrow view of Scotland as a dependent of the union). why can't you people not get your head around the concept of dual nationality and an allegiance (and obligation) to more than one place.

Can you not see that these leading scots politicians in westminister are a waste of our talent

Quite sad really

114

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 08:01:49

#123

...and a another thing... i have never suggested or alluded to Scotland being oppressed by England.

Scotalnd's destiny is in the hands of her people, not anyone else's

Your drivel is typically twisted unioinst bile

115

c.u jimmy,

glasgow 17/06/2007 08:05:18

Smart move Annabell you came out head and shoulders above the rest,things are hotting up and Jack,s missing as usual

116

Chaplin,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 08:10:10

104. Dougie Douglas
I've re-read my post and still cant find any reference to the fact I'm a Unionist. The truth is I haven't decided.
Perhaps the Scots Westminster politicians prefer to see the bigger picture.
However I do agree with your penultimate statement "Scotland's destiny is in the hands of her people, not anyone else's".
Cheers.

117

Calum Crubag,

17/06/2007 08:16:02

Good. The sooner the better.

So, the LibDems are supporting a referendum on Europe? How hypocritical.

Saorsa san amharc!

118

Cadgers,

Perth 17/06/2007 08:18:15

Weel, weel we do indeed live in "interesting times".

"shoot the Nationalists' fox".... but then they'd be breaking the law.

119

An Australian,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 08:19:05

Now's the time to kill off this ridiculous political situation once and for all. Vote no as soon as possible, keep in the Union, and ditch the parochial nationalism that is rife in these pages. Being a part of the UK is the only chance Scotland has to stay in the running as a country that can be taken seriously on the world stage, rather than as a small country made up of religious weirdos. This is even more pressing as the English are now making their own malt whisky, and will have even less need of us.

120

toryheaven.blogspot.com,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 08:21:02

Well this Tory never though he would see the day either ....

If we are going to have this vote then will the English be allowed to vote too? After all, when Czechoslovakia was split both the Czechs and the Slovaks were polled, not just one side. Seems fair to me.

It wouldn't surprise me, if bothsides wre given the chance to vote here, if the English were to vote in their droves for independence, but not enough Scots did. After all, the English are pretty sick of hearing about what is going on in devolved Scoland and Wales but not in Engand: first it was free care for the elderly (Scoland), then scrapping prescription charges (Wales), and now the end to the graduate endowment with a specific exclusion of English students (Scotland). Scotland could never be the big government, benefit junkie counry it is were it to be fiscally autonomous. Most Scots realise this, and would be likely to vote against independence in order to retain the fatted English calf. So, we might well have the bizarre situation of Scotland voting against independence but Engand in favour. What a sorry state that would be: actually being chucked out of the Union, rather than walking away. Those to blame would be the architects of the lop sided devolutionay settlement, New Labour.

I would keep the Union, but force an end to te culture of high spending government in Scotland by making the Scottish executive fund all of its spending entirely from Scottish raised revenues. That would be a blast of icy cold water to a country that lives like it had a basic income tax rate of 30% not 22%.

121

eric,

Lothian 17/06/2007 08:21:59

Its the English who are longing for seperation,SNP are in a win win situation no matter how Scots vote.

122

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 08:30:05

#134 Australian

maybe your right, and maybe it's time to rein in the ridiculous Australian nationalism thats been running rife since 1901.

Your analysis is spot on.

How could Scotland be taken seriously
'on the world stage'? -- just look at Ireland, Sweden, Norway etc - pathetic little minnows - they have knowhere near the stature of Scotland internationally ...cough,splutter!!!!!

123

Stitch That, Jimmy,

Dunchibbing Fornow 17/06/2007 08:30:15

#129 This is no place for a name copycat, especially a fawning, toadyish, Tory copycat who can't spell or punctuate.

124

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 08:34:58

AM2 - #136

Ireland's GDP per capita in 1990 was 70% of Scotlands.

Where they are at now seems pretty good going to me:- certainly compared to Scotland - you never end-ingly tell us we are the dependant economic laggards of the UK, sucking english teets dry.

which way do you want it pal?

125

Richardinho,

17/06/2007 08:34:59

The unionists have some explaining what Scotland is going to do if England decide to reduce all their subsidies, particularly once the oil runs out.

By the middle of this century, Scotland could easily have been bled dry and discarded by England.

That's why it's time to act now.

126

subrosa,

17/06/2007 08:37:08

#27 I applied to join the virtually moribund local St Andrews Society, thinking I'd meet a few fellow Scots and be welcomed with open arms.

A very similar thing happened to me in Shrewsbury, England some years ago. In fact I was distinctly the odd one out with my Scottish accent :)

127

Upbeat,

17/06/2007 08:38:56

So it all starts again.

I hope you can all see what has happened ....if this story proves to be true.

We have just entered into the most damaging and useless period of Scottish Devolved Government ever. The recently elected Holyrood parliament has hardly read itself into office and now is due to be sidelined into this never ending discussion.

The debate , which had been put to sleep for three years will dominate eveything, until the date for the referendum is decided and the event itself takes place.

No sensible progress will be made with addressing the affairs of Scotland, and its economy. Plans for development and the modifying regulation to as to make stady progress towards a better Scotland will be put on hold . Everything will be thrown into this campaign.

Just when government in Scotland was settling for the long haul, these Politicians appear toi have have put a full stop under the whole Parliament.

The Parliament cannot survive the outcome of a referendum anyway. Their manadtae is for devolved government nothing esle. Yes and the Parliament's authority is altered, No and the SNP's days , and whole raison d' etre are over.

Unless the referendum is held immediately after the Holidays in September this idea is a total disaster for Scotland.

128

allan58,

edinburgh 17/06/2007 08:40:30

Yeah - well AM2, you probably agree that black was white - especially when wearing your rose-tinted glasses.cLearly you are afraid that a referendum held prior to 2010 will produce the "wrong" result. Your bitter,spiteful & mean spirited drivel is all the inducement I need to to vote "yes" - if only to get your nose out of joint.

In any case. the SNP is the governing party - let it accept Tory support for a referendum but,on a timeteable of the SNP's choosing. It would be just SOOOOOOOOOO wonderful if this blew up in the Tories' faces as well!

129

Brisbane Scot,

17/06/2007 08:41:53

Since it is highly unlikely that there will be an actual date for this referendum for up to two years due to continual negotations on the content of the make up and contents of said referendum. The first thing we all have to remember is that the Brown Blair issue looks like it is going to continue to be adverse to a positive result for the unionists.
Blairs attempt to by pass the Scottish People by signing a deal to give freedom to an enemy of Scotland will still be fresh in everyone mind especially when they try for a third time to free this murderer of Scots.
The declaration of Labour that they intend not to allow the Scottish People a referendum on the new TREATY BY DECEIT will be a major issue.
The performance of the SNP as a government who listen to the ordinary Scottish people and always act in their sole interest will be a huge example to our fellow Scots.
The level of non performance by the Executive of the previous 8 years including hidden reports and massive wastage of valuable funds will put a very large nail in their coffins.
The war in Iraq/Afghanistan will still be a huge factor of influence. That together with a much needed inquiry by the Scottish, American and English governments should only encourage more self belief by Scots.
And finally contrary to statements coming out of Downing Street Tony Bliar should be in the position of the President of Europe. The biggest deathnell of the act of union.

130

Publius,

Girvan for the weekend 17/06/2007 08:44:05

Several interesting threads, each throwing up a question.
(1) Do the Tories really support a referendum on independence? More likely one or two mavericks do, but they may find it difficult to convince all the Tory MSPs.
(2) Is there really an anti-Scottish tide in England? I work in London during the week and I haven't noticed an anti-Scottish tide. The English Daily Mail is using Holyrood policies to bash the UK Labour Government but that is hardly a tide.
(3) Should ex-pats have the right to vote in Scotland? An easy one. If they are on the electoral register in Scotland they should have a vote. If not, not.
(4) Ireland and other small European countries are economically successful, so why not Scotland? It depends on the policies of a post-independence government and also of whether we can bring a large number of people up to a reasonable level of education. Ireland has low taxation and very conservative, highly disciplined schools. BUT countries seem to be economically susccessful in turn. China is the most successful economy at the moment. What lessons can we learn from China?
(5) Would a referendum on independence go yes or no? No-one can know. As Nikita Khruschev said ...'The problem with free elections is that you don't know who will win'.

131

Richardinho,

17/06/2007 08:45:00

'The Parliament cannot survive the outcome of a referendum anyway. Their manadtae is for devolved government nothing esle. Yes and the Parliament's authority is altered, No and the SNP's days , and whole raison d' etre are over. '

unionists have been announcing the eminent demise of the SNP for decades now. Yet now we are in government.l

132

Scunner,

17/06/2007 08:52:12

The Independence movement will never die. Look at Ireland. They kept voting for the Union but the bombs had a greater say than any democratic vote. I can see the same happening here.

133

terry osser,

LONDON 17/06/2007 08:58:13

i should have a vote--it is the union of the united kingdom that is being voted on. english should have a vote as should our other dependencies wales northern ireland. scotland will then definitely be totally independent with our best wishes. will do you good

134

Grant,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 09:02:30

I certainly would extend the franchise of the referendum to the whole of the UK, that way Scottish independence wouldn't just be assured, it would be overwhelming.

The position vis a vis the rest of the UK is something the supplicant Scottish unionists always fail to register, when it comes to Scottish independence.

135

Home Rule for Pertyck,

Glasgow, a town nearPertyck 17/06/2007 09:04:34

This story is hogwash.

"Tories back vote on independence" reads the headline.

EDDIE BARNES' opening sentence is rather more guarded: "A REFERENDUM... could be held as early as next year after a dramatic move by Conservative leaders,,"

These Conservative leaders turm out to be a man called Richard Cook. Who he? Oh, I almost forgot. Cookier's call "has the support of Tory MPs south of the Border close to party leader David Cameron."

None of these are named. And the only named Tory that anyone has heard of? "Annabel does not back a referendum."

I know newspapers have to sell copies. Stick to books of Scottish names, posters and other gimmicks if you must but spare us crap journalism with headlines designed to catch the eye and part the unwary from their cash.

But judging by the number of posts, you did manage to "fool all of the people some of the time," But at what cost to your reputation?

136

Jardine,

17/06/2007 09:05:47

The Scottish Tories?

Whose living room did they meet in to decide this?

137

,

17/06/2007 09:06:01
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138

puskas,

East Kilbride 17/06/2007 09:07:44

No 111 Mr Mariner... Master as in child.

No fancy questions? I thought they were simple and easy to answer.

You say you are on the far side of the world. Thats fine you found that simple enough.

As I said a genuine question across the board that one... LOL. You were not prioritised. Your self importance will not baffle many.

You are a far place from your home in Stewartfield, East Kilbride . Just along from Hunters. You said you can also see the Dollan baths from your home if I can remember correctly in previous info. you gladly gave.
Oh thats right Hairmyres Hospital is across from the new supermarket and the Overseas development offices, Eaglesham Road.... That little piece could be of interest..

Now all at sea or under the sea take your pick.

I suggest to you and I'm quite confident in this that whenever the time is right for a referendum it shall certainly not be your choice.
As others more intellectually gifted than yourself have said the time is not at present.
You will understand when I say more water to pass under the bridge Mr Mariner as you watch yer wee boat go by.

Your last words have me worried about your overall health. Please settle down and think with a little bit more clarity.
Just because you say you are on the other side of the world that doesn't necessary mean you have to stand on your head letting the matter settle. Maybe in this case you do ?? tsk tsk..

Lets get back to something you said.

I'm/YOUR up for it, pretty a lot of others are except.... err the SNP. Let us decide now...

Before I go any further these were the words of a master Mariner.. Yep a Master of what precisely.

These are the words of a lunatic.

.. are you telling me and others that the SNP are not up for it..
Do you believe anyone is listening to your wails from the Nationalist viewpont.

"Let us decide now", you rant.. How many times did you

139

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 17/06/2007 09:09:01

I welcome a referendum as it emphasises that Sovereignty lies with the people. Unionist deny a referendum because they know that they are not certain to win. If they were sure that they would win they would allow one of that I am certain. People vote in an election on a variety of issues, not one specific issue. The Unionist parties would be calling for a referendum if the result were different and a majority voted for parties that supported independence, for precisely the reasons outlined above. A referendum is extension of the princple of Sovereignty lying with the people as opposed to the Unionists principle of Sovereignity lying with Parliament, after the vote according to unionists, the people dont count

140

,

17/06/2007 09:14:09
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141

Upbeat,

17/06/2007 09:14:11

146 Richardinho
"Yet now we are in government. "

You may imagine that the SNP is in " Government." In fact they are for the next few weeks the largest party in Holyrood, and are a minority.They can do nothing by themselves at all You should never forget this.

142

SeriouslyAmused,

17/06/2007 09:15:33

134. An Australian

Utter drivel!

143

Denis,

17/06/2007 09:16:16

"If they are on the electoral register in Scotland they should have a vote"

Anybody who comes from another EU country is eligible to be on the electoral register while they're in the UK, even if they only stay for a
few years before going back home - for municipal (including Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly) elections, but not for UK Parliament elections. Personally I don't think non-citizens should ever be allowed
to vote in any elections or referendums because they have no duty of allegiance to that country. If they want to transfer their allegiance to
the new country they can become naturalised citizens, and then they
can legitimately have a say in how it's run.

144

,

17/06/2007 09:16:40
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145

Brisbane Scot,

17/06/2007 09:17:00

Lets face it AM2 Irelands extraordinary growth has to be balanced on how far back they were in the race to start with. Hence the higher than normal % of debt. There are strong similarities with the asian collapse of a decade ago, but no highly regarding bodies have even remotely hinted at their need to pull back the growth factor yet. Let us also remember that Scotland through the SNP have declared that they will not peg their currency to the Euro but will shadow the Bank of England currency rate. Irelands debt burden is no where near to the UK's and an Independant Scotland would be starting with a minimal government debt burden compared to both other countries. A stronger manufacturing/assembly industry base coupled together with the Export of Clean Coal, Oil which fluctuates between 200,000/400000 barrels per day and at present is being paid directly into treasury coffers, Whisky which produces excellent returns directly into Treasury coffers, Gas production, Scotland Fishing resources and a rejuvinated agricultural industry similar to the New Zealand model. All these assets would continue to fund a very strong Scottish Economy right from day one of Independance, a luxury that our Irish brothers and sisters did not have.

The economic scare tactics will fail just as they did during the last election, especially if Alex is smart enough to start an audit of Scotlands true contributions to the existing union. It would be very nice for pro independant supporters to have a true assessment on the state of our nation rather than the Labour account shuffling that has been shown in the past.

PS Of course Scotland will demand the 600 square miles of the North Sea that was transferred to England before the establishment of Holyrood. Or do you argue that it is theres.

146

Kevin Williamson,

TheScottishPatient. com 17/06/2007 09:18:52

Until Annabel Goldie and the Scottish Conservative Group in Holyrood confirm this to be true this may turn out to be just another non-story from the editors of Britain On Sunday.

It gives them a chance to repeat their dubious mantra - not backed up by any opinion polls - that only 1 out of 4 Scots would choose independence in a Referendum.

147

Richardinho,

17/06/2007 09:20:09

'You may imagine that the SNP is in " Government." In fact they are for the next few weeks the largest party in Holyrood, and are a minority.They can do nothing by themselves at all You should never forget this.
'

not quite the 'stone dead' predicted by the arch-unionist George Roberston a few years ago though, is it?

148

Upbeat,

17/06/2007 09:20:22

154 Ordinaryperson

I was so sure that you knew what you were trying to say that I even read it twice...but at the end of the second read through I was as baffled as the first time.

Undoubtedly A great post ;-) .....there must be a place for you in Politics.

149

Gregorf,

Put off business! 17/06/2007 09:21:02

Thats seems to have been the problem for God knows how long. As for a referendum stalling investment, read the first sentence again.

150

Upbeat,

17/06/2007 09:24:20

158 Denis
"If they want to transfer their allegiance to
the new country they can become naturalised citizens, and then they
can legitimately have a say in how it's run."

Great sentiment .

Problem is.. that this definition hits hard all those People who hold that they have a primary and unshakable allegiance to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Are they allowed to vote in your utopia ??

151

Tweedmouth,

17/06/2007 09:26:42

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The 46% of the 'workforce' in Scotland who receive UK government- funded jobs are not going to cut off the river of cash - £34,000,000,000 that flows from Westminster to Edinburgh.

If they hold a referendum now, in two years in ten years it won't make any difference. Scotland is dependency culture writ large - particularly Western Scotland and Highland Scotland. Without the English taxpayer's £34 billion this place would deflate like a hot air balloon once the gas is turned off.

The racist bigotry that is the heart of all nationalism fair drips from these postings and the myths and dreams rise like Celtic mist. The idea that there is a country called 'Scotland' with a cohesive nation of people called 'the Scots' - fundamentally different from their English, Irish, Welsh, Faroese and Scandiwegian neighbours - is rubbish. Scotland is a fully integrated part of a single island in which the people, the economy, the language and the culture are totally interfused after a thousand years of marriage, trade - and for the last 300 years - economic and military partnership.

The racists who promote the idea of 'the Scottish people' as opposed to 'the English people' are blind to the complete melding of a whole range of diverse communities in these islands. There is hardly a Scottish family that doesn't have English, Irish and Welsh branches.

The endless gurning and campaigning for independence is just a way for professional politicians to keep getting paid and for newspapers to sell more copies. Divide and rule has been transcended by ' campaign for division and keep getting paid lots of dosh'.

The rest is just anglophobia, racism and bigotry - as nationalism has always been whether in Serbia, Ruanda, Kenya or Sri Lanka.

152

Grant,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 09:28:06

remember the 1 in 4 was when the poll asked more than one question vis a vis independence. If the Tories are so keen to put the issue to bed, we can just have one simple question on independence - whether we support it or not. Support for that was at 51 - 52% for a while, quite recently wasn't it?

153

Zibi is a Jambo,

17/06/2007 09:47:09

Surely the Tories can bring a bill into Holyrood now as an "affirmation referendum". Same issue, different question.

So, will the SNP vote for a bill where the referendum question is "Should Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom?" ?

There is a precedent for this. There was a so-called "border poll" like this in Northern Ireland in 1976.

Job done. Game, set and match to the Tories.

154

David MacVicar,

web 17/06/2007 09:48:10

Proxy votes.

In most countries you cant vote in the national elections unless you have taken up their nationality.

UK citizens abroad can vote in UK NATIONAL elections by proxy and many do.
Scotland is treated as a region of England which is why proxy votes were not allowed in the recent elections. This is fine for Mr Mariner as he considers it a region of England anyway.

There should be no referendum on independence unless it is treated as a National election with all the rules that apply. These are the agreed rules for everyone else.

Wannabe Mariner and co just want the rules to be different when applied to Scotland as they fundamentally dont believe Scotland is a country:

If they accept a referendum then all should be able to vote by proxy - those are national rules. If they dont then no referendum should even take place as we are not considered a country.

The unionist position is to try to win through anti democratic processes:
a) Exclude certain people from voting that are accepted in international norms for national elections eg. people in military service abroad.
b) Change the rules so that 60% or the electorate need to vote or something similar. Undemocratic.
c) Even when more than 50% vote yes deny them their democratic victory like some third world state.
d) If a referendum fails put a rule stopping for X decades. Again undemocratic. If the mood changes democratic will and rights in modern society must allow that expressed in a referendum at any time.

These are things unionists support. It is undemocratic. However it is based on real fear. This move by the tories is also based on fear. Master Mariner and co are cowards basically, nothing less. Otherwise they would want to win on free and open elections not rigged ones.

In any case: There is NOT going to be an early referendum. We dont even have a voting system that works yet. That process will take a year at leas

155

GP,

17/06/2007 09:50:53

166# great post
shame you won't have a vote given Berwick is once again part of england.

156

Edward,

17/06/2007 09:50:54

I think the Tories should be congratulated for coming out in favour of a referendum, which everyone, bar the LibDems and Labour are in favour of.
However I think there haste in wanting it in less than a year of an SNP adminstration, gives the real clue as to there thinking. For starters a year or less than a year is certainly not long enough to allow the SNP to proove that Scotland could go independent, so there is less likelyhood of any warm support for independence, secondly, it is likely that the Conservatives will win the next general election, all be it by a slim majority, with that as a background, its felt that Scots would be inclined to go for independence, but the Tories would struggle in an independent Scotland as they would be seen as being identifiable with the Cameron government and unionism. This is the real politik of the Tories hasty push on a referendum

157

beech hedge,

17/06/2007 09:51:57

well done no. 56 the best bit of reading that I have read for a long time

158

Jim P,

17/06/2007 09:53:22

#166 Tweedmouth

You said:
"Scotland is a fully integrated part of a single island"

Dod fae Orkney -

Fit dae ye think o that? Orkney must hae faen aff the end.

Scottish not British
Jim P

159

James Annand,

17/06/2007 09:56:29

I'm astonished.


Took me a good few minutes to read and re-read the story to make sure I understood.


For those saying that we should 'just get on with it and have the vote now', there is going to be a lot of negotiations on the question and when to put it. The devolution referendum was put together so easily because there was a majority government, and Labour were pushing the devolution agenda two years before the election and right up until September.

The SNP haven't even begun to talk up independence yet. They should be given a chance before we do this.

Proper grown up debate please.

160

The laird.,

leadhills. 17/06/2007 09:58:08

referendum vote,
all expats accross the world should be elegable to vote most left there motherland to get a better chance in life owing to the fact that this country has been going down the swanny year on year under 50 years of unionist new labour arrogance and economic growth stagnation the politicaly correct brigade and the hangers on milking the gravy train are terrified of perhaps the thought of expats being able to vote to change the country around with better opertunities that some day they may have the confidence to return to there motherland with a more positive future for them and there families than was the case when they originally made the decission to migrate in the first place. there no less scottish than the gravy train brigade and hangers on are only concerned that the expat vote could be a threat to there future within the unionist cesspit that they have all become aclimitised to

161

morris,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 10:06:12

This is as it should be, and a slap in the face to the Liberal Party, who are undemocratic.The Tories are traditionally the most opposed party to any form of Home Rule, but the point is they consult the electorate and accept the outcome.
We should also acknowledge that the result is a test of a particular issue on a particular day,and we will not listen to the Labour numpties shouting settled will of the people.In a democracy there is never a settled will of the people only constant monitoring via the ballot box!
Of course if the vote is a heavy defeat for the nationalists, this should be born in mind when scheduling the next one.Clearly where there is no doubt as to the outcome being the status quo,even the most ardent supporter of independence should recognise that spending of public funds must be in the public interest,and seen to be so.
A repeat is however a prerequisite, and democratic,but the timing depends very much upon the level of support, and therefore the likelihood of change.
My own guess is that currently it would be close but the Status Quo (which is currently devolution) would remain.
In three years time I suspect an entirely different story would exist,when the people will have seen for themselves that Westminster, or Holyrood ,is the answer,but not both.I doubt many will have swum half way across the river, to turn and swim back again!

162

Transparent?,

Scotland 17/06/2007 10:06:25

FIRST: They had better run a more secure and honest voting system than we had at the May election.

SECOND: The wording of the referendum question(s) will need to be simple and clear. No ambiguity and no doubt in anyone's mind what they are voting for.

If they need help to design the whole thing to prevent cheating at any stage in the process, there is one person, at least, who could help them get it right for all parties and all voters.

163

eric,

17/06/2007 10:08:01

It will do England good to stand on its own 2 feet.

164

Eoghain,

Lithuania. 17/06/2007 10:08:12

With regards to ex-pat Scots and their chance to vote. I left when I was 29. I still return to work in the summer but I am denied a vote in Scotland and, being a British citizen, am unable to vote in any Lithuanian elections. The only election I can vote in is the EU elections.
Basically I'm disenfranchised.
My work is here. I haven't taken out any other citizenship. I lived in Scotland all my life, studied there, worked there and I am not of any other descent. As far back as I can know, my family is Scottish. I find it quite churlish the 'ye got oot so cannae vote' crap. Thanks to the Union, a great many of us had to get out in order to work. Does that make us less Scottish?
Some think it is perfectly normal to deny born and bred Scots the vote but allow economic immigrants the chance to shape the destiny. I don't. This referendum would decide if I go back or stay here.
Just my piece of input and before anyone comes out, I'm not one of your tartan and shortbread, maudlin ex pats. I just want my rights.

165

Edward,

17/06/2007 10:08:12

Next General Election can be held at any time between now and 2010
Last Labour elections were 4 years apart, the last Tory elections were 5 years apart
Gordon Brown will want to have at least a year at the post before calling an election, he may even go for a snap election, being advised that Cameron isnt yet in a position to contest an election properly, so the earliest would be either October 2007 or May 2008, allthough if he went for full term election, would be inclined to stick to an election 4 years from the last, so that takes us to May 2009
Im saying all this as this will have a bearing on when a referendum will take place in Scotland
If the general Election was to be in May 2008, the Referndum could take place in 2009 (no political party of any persuation likes to have national voting within a year, due to 'voter fatigue'). Or if the General Election took place in May 2009, then the referendum would be in 2010
Also for these reasons its highly unlikely that any referendum would take place before a general election as this would only antagonise voters more in having to vote yet again

166

Happy Scot,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 10:09:33

Fantastic No.56 i couldnt have said it better myself.

I would vote yes for Scotland, lets us be an Independant Nation :)))))))))

167

James Annand,

17/06/2007 10:10:47

179

That's something to talk about after a victorious referendum.

No point in muddying the waters.

168

megz,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 10:11:46

I think the vote should be a simple yes or no. If there is a no, yes and just more powers then that will split the vote as has been seen on previous scotsman polls.

169

morris,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 10:13:14

179
Im no expert but I doubt that its possible to hold a referendum on whether Scotland retains the monarchy or not,until such time as Scotland exists as an independent nation.The Edinburgh parliament has no power to do so as far as I am aware,however when we became a self governing nation (ie independence) we of course are answerable only to the international community and international law. and a republic is certainly an option.Im fairly confident that we must have a) independence before we can consult on b)monarchy or republic.
I could be wrong of course?

170

Edward,

17/06/2007 10:13:48

By the way it is sheer nonscence that ex pats (of any political persuation) should be considered to be legible to vote in either a general election or a referendum!. Those ex Pats who think they should should wake up and smell the coffee!
Quite rightly it is purely down to those resident in Scotland and on the electoral register.
(When I state ex pats, that is those who are not resident in Scotland and not on the electoral register)
Those ex pats who take an interest in Scotland, being of any political persuation, should and will have to rely on those back home to do the right thing

171

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 17/06/2007 10:14:52

A most interesting development especially as it comes from the most reactionary unionist party in Scotland. Certainly it is to be welcomed and maybe it will be followed by the other two unionist parties?

Independence First the non party political campaign for a referendum on Independence, has members from every political party and also of no party affiliations. They have been campaigning since february 2005 for a referendum and have been successful in bringing a referendum into the public spotlight.

Polls from 1998 indicate that there is a small majority in favour of Independence and is it were better known through the media that such a majority exists, many more people would come down off the fence and would vote yes.

http://www.independence1st.com/content/polls.shtml

Niall Aslen
National Treasurer
Independence First.

172

Edward,

17/06/2007 10:16:35

#184
Actually if you reside in Lithuania, regardless of your passport, if you are paying taxes in that country and resident in that country, then you are , under EU regulations entitled to vote in that country.
Which is why EU citizens , who comply with the same criteria are alowed to vote in the UK

173

Le Drapeau Noir,

Capital City 17/06/2007 10:25:04

"A referendum would shoot the Nationalists' fox. They would lose and the whole issue of independence would be off the radar for 20 years."
Bold assumption from members of a party as thin on the ground in Scotland as hens teeth never mind the fox itself.Whats the official unionist line...AM2 are you about???oh you are lol.

174

James.com,

Clifton 17/06/2007 10:26:17

We will need the English vote to win it!

175

Edward,

17/06/2007 10:28:21

#184
Stand corrected
Under EU regulations you can vote in local elections
Devolved government and European elections, but not UK General Elections
Which I find totally weird!
More info at http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/files/dms/0906whoca...

176

Lucifer,

Ayrshire 17/06/2007 10:28:33

win win situation for the tories, if independence vote goes against independence their vote north of the border will increase for backing a vote on indepence and if the majority of Scots vote for Independence the tories win .... because it will virtually guarantee the tories remain in power in England .... and this may be the real reason the tories are getting behind it ... because they realise this as well

177

Yeti,

17/06/2007 10:28:56

The postings on here are like something out of The Life of Brian. As soon as we get the referendum we want, we start arguing among ourselves as to who has the right to vote. Pathetic.

178

Breezy,

Argyll 17/06/2007 10:30:33

I probably have more relatives in Canada than I do here in my homeland, they left, over a period of years, because of the Union and [ It goes hand in hand ] because they wanted to better themselves, and they certainly did. I know for a fact that if they got a vote in the referendum proposed the vast majority of them would vote for independence. But I don't agree that they should have a vote, it's up to the Scottish electorate, we are the ones that count. I'll be saying ' Yes ' for all of them too.

179

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 10:30:39

AM2 @192

Are you seriously saying that Ireland has been anything less of an economic miracle in the last 20 years? yes or no

Do you agree or disagree that Irish GDP per capita has grown at least 50% in the last 20 years? yes or no

You either agree with the rest of thus that Ireland has transformed itself or you refute this. How can your views and opinions be given any stock vis a vis Scotland/Independence when you pathalogically scew or twist facts.

Some yes or no answers to above questions please

180

chicmac,

Inverclyde 17/06/2007 10:32:59

I salute the Tories' Liberal and Democratic stance on this, which is notably missing elsewhere.

Scotland will resoundingly vote YES, barring ridiculous question fixing.

The UN should organise the referendum.

181

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 10:33:42

Those that think ex pats should have no say in Scotlands future should check this out;-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nino_Randazzo

182

Denis,

17/06/2007 10:34:53

# 191 Edward - "Actually if you reside in Lithuania, regardless of your passport, if you are paying taxes in that country and resident in that country, then you are , under EU regulations entitled to vote in that country. Which is why EU citizens , who comply with the same criteria
are allowed to vote in the UK."

Not for elections of members of the UK Parliament, only for municipal elections, and for EU Parliament elections they can choose whether to
vote in the UK or in their home countries.

The electoral register used to include various codes, eg for this case:

"K - printed before an elector indicates a European Union citizen, other than British or Irish, entitled to vote at Local Government Elections and European Parliamentary Elections only"

183

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 10:36:25

If Scotland became independent England would be Tory forever. Labour could never win Westminister without scottish Mp's.

hence the vitriol from labour regarding independence. it's more about self interest than interest in the peoples of Scotland (or England)

184

Ferryhill loon,

North of the Dee,South of the Don 17/06/2007 10:37:36

#166

Is the UK treasury actually English?

Judging by comments like yours and also what appeared in the Mail it would appear to be the case.

Ignorance and arrogance isn`t just the preserve of the Brits by the looks of it.

185

Lucifer,

Ayrshire 17/06/2007 10:38:48

spot on Dougie #203

186

Denis,

17/06/2007 10:42:17

Oh, # 191 Edward, I've just seen your correction at # 195.

What's really weird is that citizens of state X who happen to be in the UK are allowed to participate in some aspects of the government of the UK,
even though their legal duty of allegiance is to state X and not to the UK.

187

James Annand,

17/06/2007 10:43:40

206

I would prefer that we got rid of them, but that debate is for later.

188

European Scot,

17/06/2007 10:43:45

The Goldie Retriever intends to slip her London leash and pick up some useful votes in the process. No wonder all the Union Jack Russells have their tails between their legs, even the top dog Jack McKennel must be in a state of shock. A certain N. Irish Dead Setter, the one with the redcoat, will be chasing it's tail in a new spin on what this will do for the Union. Is it any wonder that Wee Eck and his Scotties are running rings around them. Unencumbered by leashes tightly held by London masters, their tails will be wagging as they sniff the air of freedom and independence, SNaPping at the heels of the British bulldog. Truly Heaven Scent !

189

Cynical Peter,

St Andrews 17/06/2007 10:44:01

How high should the bar be set for Independence?

For Devolution it was set at 40% of the electorate - should it be higher for Independence?

Devolution was simply a relaxation of the "constitution" but Independence would be an abnegation of it.

Surely, therefore the turnout would have to be much higher than the lacklustre 50% at the Scottish Parliament elections? And probably higher than the 60% in 1997. And perhaps we would need a simple majority of all Scots voting for it?

But that did not even happen for devolution - it was only 44%. And for tax varying powers is was only 38%.

When the SNP have only achieved 33% of the the voting public - i.e. 16% of the electorate - how concieveable is it that a vote vor Independence will be carried - unless the bar is set as low as in 1997?

So I suspect that it is irrelevant when the Referendum is called - it will be lost.

The only consideration is - will the next 4 years of government in Scotland be better under a wounded SNP who have lost the Referendum or with the paralising inertia of waiting for Alec to pick his moment?

190

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 17/06/2007 10:45:48

A clever move by the Tories. The inevitable "no" vote will put an end to the possibility of independence for a good few years.

191

ICTmee,

Loch Ness 17/06/2007 10:46:31

Im stunned, I never thought I would hear myself saying this but well done the Tories. Of course we'll vote YES and your plan will be scuppered but Im liking your style.
FREEDOM!!!!!

192

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 17/06/2007 10:47:39

210

European Scot, what a daft contribution. People (like you) who aren't funny shouldn't try to be funny.

193

Charles1234,

Cambuslang 17/06/2007 10:48:45

Richard Cook is a well known Thatcherite and it's obvious he is stirring it just like his mentor Michael Forsyth has been.

Annabelle and the Tory MSPs won't be happy with these interventions from people who are jealous of them holding elected office to actually do something constructive.

But then we are dealing with Michael Forsyth who presided over the destruction of the Tories as a Parliamentary force in 1997.

The Scottish Tory MSPs are looking at building their party up as a party in touch on basic issues and these left field side winders from unreconstructed Thatcherites only put them off course.

194

Queen D,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 10:50:32

I'll happily design the referendum and I'll do it for nothing!


TICK ONE BOX

Should Scotland be independent?


YES _______


NO ----------

Those should be boxes!

195

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 10:51:29

I suspect that there is much less to this story than meets the eye.

A previously unheard of Tory starts a kite flying regarding an independence referendum and attracts the support of “several Tory MSP’s”

One unnamed Tory apparently used the phrase “shoot the Nationalists’ fox”
Ye Gods, do even Tories speak in this way?

It is a pleasant story. One, I suspect, designed to get the usual unionist suspects foaming at the mouth as they frantically scrabble around attempting to deny a vote to some of those they believe may vote against them.

Aunty Annabel says no, and the SoS is pursuing its own fox shooting agenda.

196

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 17/06/2007 10:52:20

217

Malaga, there you go stereotyping again. Stop it.

197

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 10:52:21

#211

The referendum should be simple and transparent.

a straight question :-

tick here for Independence

tick here for the status quo

anything else on the paper is fudging the matter .

With regards to where the line is set, that should be simple too;- if you can't be arsed to vote your voice will not be heard. If more people vote for independence than the status quo that's what will happen, and vice versa.

This referendum will not deceive the people - it's in their hands, if they have an opinion they will vote.

easy

198

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 10:53:27

#210 European Scot

EXACTLY

199

European Scot,

17/06/2007 10:53:38

215

I bow wow to your superior sense of humour !

200

Eoghain,

17/06/2007 10:54:43

#191
Actually Edward, Lithuania has exploited a loophole. They don't give residency to EU citizens. They give them a five year visa which is automatically renewed. Therefore they have no residency status and can't vote in local elections. The locals were here three months ago. I had it all explained when I complained I hadn't had a polling card. To get residency, you have to be here for 10 years on that special EU visa. Other visas don't count.

201

Robert E,

Dun Eideann 17/06/2007 10:54:54

#166 Tweedmouth

Chan eil mi a'tuigsinn.

202

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 17/06/2007 10:55:50

#217

David in Malaga, what a funny comment. I haven't heard that one before. You should be on the stage.

203

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 10:56:22

AM2

Are you seriously saying that Ireland has been anything less of an economic miracle in the last 20 years? yes or no

Do you agree or disagree that Irish GDP per capita has grown at least 50% in the last 20 years? yes or no

204

James Annand,

17/06/2007 10:58:45

222

What has happened in the past is more certain that what will happen in the future.


In any case, it looks like there will be an economic slowdown on a worldwide scale in the near future, not just Ireland.

205

Publius,

Girvan 17/06/2007 11:01:49

(1) Who should vote in a referendum? The only fair and practicable way is that all voters in Scotland who can vote in UK parliamentary elections should be able to vote. After all, we are the people who will be most immediately affected by the result, whichever way it goes. (Thanks Denis #158 for clarifying the point.)
(2) #192 AM2 on Ireland. Ireland's road network is improving very fast. Look at a map and see the motorways under construction. The Republic is about to invest in Northern Ireland's roads too! But your point about the high pupil-teacher ratio in Irish schools is very interesting. You don't need low pupil-teacher ratios to get good results. Ireland and Japan have much higher ratios than Scotland but their children learn to read, write and count much faster than ours. In many Japanese schools they don't even have cleaners; the children are required to clean their own schools - and the streets outside the schools. Perhpas we should try this in Scotland!

206

Robert Mason,

Really in Larkhall? 17/06/2007 11:04:22

228/231

David, good fun though, eh?

207

John F.,

Brazil 17/06/2007 11:04:22

This seems a rather thin story, based on one comment by someone who is not even the party leader and no official comment from the Conservatives in England who still run the show. No doubt tomorrow we´ll have another story denying it or backtracking. Having said that, I have always thought the Scottish Tories have nothing to lose by independence. They would then be free of their image as English stooges and could attract Scottish voters who share their views. Finally, as an expatriate I feel I should have a vote but as my last constituency was in England I am unable to vote in Scotland although that is my country.

208

Cynical Peter,

Still in St Andrews 17/06/2007 11:06:04

re #221

An interesting argument - but I think it might be flawed. Taken to extremes, if only one person votes in Scotland then it would be 100% for Independence.

If less than 50% of the electorate in Scotland were to vote then surely that is tacit acceptance that Independence is a non issue.

This is too important an issue to have it decided by a small vocal minority.

If more than 50% of Scots want Independence then it is a done deal - if less than 50% vote for it then it is equally clear, surely?

209

chicmac,

Inverclyde 17/06/2007 11:10:41

166

Excuse me but couldn't - "Scotland is dependency culture writ large - particularly Western Scotland and Highland Scotland. Without the English taxpayer's £34 billion this place would deflate like a hot air balloon once the gas is turned off." - be described as racist and bigotted by some?

You also seemed to imply several times that Scotland's aspiration for normal levels of self-government was itself racist and bigotted, but frankly I missed the argument behind that claim in your post.

210

James Annand,

17/06/2007 11:11:38

236

Surely if less than 50% vote for the status quo that is a tacit accpetance that the Union is dead.

211

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 11:11:59

#236

If more people vote for Independence than the status quo then that's, and vice versa. If you are eligible to vote you have excluded yourself from the process by not turning up - nothing can be read into your abstension other than you don't care either way.

212

James Annand,

17/06/2007 11:12:15

Wow, my spelling was awful in 240

213

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 11:16:44

AM2

You really do inhabit a different world don't you!!!

For the record you believe that Ireland has not enjoyed an economic miracle in the last 20 years- yes

...and you disagree that Ireland's GDP has not grown by 50%.

Correct me if you believe the contrary.

You either answer these questions or you debase all of your commentry as you cannot accept FACTS (because they tell a story you don't want told).

Yes or no AM2

214

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 17/06/2007 11:21:57

Not sure what all the fuss is about. It just means that we'll learn quicker than expected that 75% of the Scottish electorate either don't want or haven't got the b*lls, to go it alone. The quicker this is officially confirmed the better and we can move on.

215

Graham Simpson,

Edinburgh and Vancouver 17/06/2007 11:28:34

#10 Gareth, #16 Dekester, #31 Ronnie, #65 Dougie
#68 London Scot.

You have all raised an important question as to whom may vote in a referendum on Scottish independence. Congrats and thankyou.

Scots living abroad whether temporarily or semi permanently should have the right to vote on the most important constitutional decision since the Act of Union. I think that Scots abroad have as much right to participate in the independence decision as any temporary non-Scottish resident at the time of the vote. Naturally I would not expect this right to vote beyond the referendum since I do not pay taxes in Scotland.

I was born a Scot and will die a Scot no matter where I live. and there is a good chance that I would never have left had there been an independent Scotland when I was younger.

I have a Canadian and a British passport (the latter because I cannot get a Scottish Passport...Yet!!!
There are many patterns of dual and multiple citizenships voting rights in the world. The Swiss have to pay an annual fee to retain their citizenship and voting rights when living outside the country and I would gladly contribute for that privilege. Italian citizens living in Canada not only can vote in in Italy's national elections but in a limited quantity of special seats...can stand for office. The Italian government and it's people are very much aware of the of the beneficial force that their compatriots abroad can wield on behalf of their native country.

Politically speaking the potential voting power of born Scots living abroad is huge. I think when last measured it was about 6 million and I am sure that most care passionately about the future of their country. Perhaps before the referendum we may be allowed time to register with the Scottish executive with appropriate proof of nationality, plus an 'administrative fee' and qualify for a postal vote limited to any Independence referendum.

I also like to think that the 'New Scotland' c

216

Cynical Peter,

Still in St Andrews 17/06/2007 11:28:49

Too few people are as engaged in this process as types like us who post on websites. I started off this thread saying that the bar has to be set somewhere - there has to be a minimum level of the whole population that actively wants this change.

Were we to have a referendum on Scotland becoming a canton of the Peoples Republic of China would you seriously accept a simple majority of those voting?

If the pro Independence lobby cannot convince a really significant proportion of Scots that this change is desireable then we are left with the status quo, surely?

I posed the extreme case where only only one person thinks the Referendum is of any significance. It is invidious that that small minority's view dominates the rest. We have to set the level of active demand for this major change.

As for apathy/abstention - there can be many reasons for it - usually it is because people feel disconnected with the process or that they percieve the outcome to irrelevant to them personally.

Counting their votes as tacit support for Independence would only further re-inforce their apathy and cynicism about the whole democratic process.

217

Ian Menzies,

17/06/2007 11:34:32

I've often wondered why the Tories were against a vote. If the vote is YES then Labour would lose a large number of Westminster seats thus letting England be run by the Tories forever more. As for Tory Westminster representation from Scotland it does'nt exist - so no loss to teh Tories there. As for the Lib Dems -who cares.

218

livilion,

livingston 17/06/2007 11:38:48

236. Cynical Peter
Why don't we make the question:
Do you wish Scotland to be ruled by Westminster.
Yes or No?

If more than 50% say Yes then end of story.

219

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 11:39:05

#166 Get off your knees,put your cap back on and have some confidence in yourself as a Scot.

220

livilion,

livingston 17/06/2007 11:48:29

246. Graham Simpson
If you are on the electoral register in Scotland then you are entitled to vote here.
If you are not then you have the option of taking up residence in Scotland before the next vote as I did in 2000.

Otherwise you've had your chance, too bad.

Are our memories so short we have already forgotten the shambles of May 3rd?

50% of the vote or more and you carry the day, and no more talk of the dead voting against the motion as happened in 1979.

221

decent one,

17/06/2007 11:58:53

What happens if we lose ?

What percentage of the vote is needed ? A straight 51% ?

222

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 12:05:06

Cynical Peter

If there is an argument in favour of intrducing referda being decided upon anything other than a simple majority, you singularly fail to make it.

Allusions to us joining the Peoples’ Republic of China, or of only one person voting in a referendum are nonsensical drivel.

The Labour Party introduced your preferred concept of a population % in the 1979 referendum on Scottish devolution, thereby claiming the abstainers, or non-voters supported the status quo.

Despite a majority of those voting doing so in favour of the proposition, the motion fell, thereby giving those who declined to vote, a say in the outcome.

If democracy is designed to reflect the will of the people, then only the will of those who express an opinion requires to be reflected.

Those who choose to disenfranchise themselves, must logically, remain disenfranchised.

223

howyoudoingboy,

rory's house 17/06/2007 12:10:15

#249 and other posts


i always believed we lived in a representative liberal democracy under the rule of the law and we got there because history
shows us the rule of a majority is not always a good
thing for minorities

and so we have certain rights as individuals to protect
us from the state and each other what seems to me is being proposed is an acceptance of dictatorship by a minority as long as the democratic process can gerrymandered to provide this result

obviously this option suits the demagoguery of the first minister alec salmond the results of this illiberal democracy
can been seen in states, such as Serbia under Slobodan Milosevic, Zimbabwe, and post-Soviet Russia.

not examples to follow i would suggest and comments such as this by David MacVicar#169

"If the mood changes democratic will and rights in modern society must allow that expressed in a referendum at any time"

are very dangerous indeed.


It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)

224

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 12:14:00

AM2

You continually evade the question.

You agree that Irelands growth is what most people would term miraculous (from the perspoective of 20 years ago - no?

You dispute that Irelands GDP per capita has grown by over 50% in 20 years - yes?

These are simple questions which you refuse to answer (you did not answer them in post 233 but rather questioned the premise of my question)

The questions are designed to see if you can acknowledge the economic situation of our most similar neigbour .

I was trying to create a baseline for discussing Scotland and Ireland in comparative terms. You refuse to enter this debate because it simply cannot be debated positively from your stance - as your refusal to answer clearly shows.

We can now add 'denialist' to your CV beside 'apologist'

225

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 12:15:48

#256 Bully wee alba

spot on

226

megz,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 12:17:40

If the tories end up agreeing to it then they are in a win win situation. It woul be a total get it right up you to Libdems which are anything but and labour should scotland decide on independence. I would hope that there is enough votes for independence, but if it turns out that there isn't then I would obviously just have to accept it.

227

Scythia,

Flanders , Belgium / Renfrewshire 17/06/2007 12:19:04

"..one in four Scots would back a move to full independence " - this is sloppy journalism . Scots ARE in favour of independence. For the "people of Scotland" its quite a different matter. All the more reason take our country back , come the referendum.

I agree fully with poster 246 - many Scots abroad care much more about this country than many of the
people who live there. If the SNP do anything right these next few years, they must tap into the 40 million diaspora.

228

IWright,

17/06/2007 12:19:32

"The backing of the entire Tory group, Greens and the one independent MSP would give them a majority. "

So would the backing of Greens and Tories alone, even without the Presiding Officer voting as a Tory.

229

IWright,

17/06/2007 12:23:06

"A referendum would shoot the Nationalists' fox."

Or turkeys voting early for Christmas...

230

bad bill,

hereeeeeeeee 17/06/2007 12:24:37

#249 and other posts


i always thought we lived in a representative liberal democracy under the rule of the law and we got there because history
shows us the rule of a majority is not always a good
thing for minorities

and so we have certain rights as individuals to protect
us from the state and each other what seems to me is being proposed is an acceptance of dictatorship by a minority as long as the democratic process can gerrymandered to provide this result

obviously this option suits the demagoguery of the first minister alec salmond the results of this illiberal democracy
can been seen in states, such as Serbia under Slobodan Milosevic, Zimbabwe, and post-Soviet Russia.

not examples to follow i would suggest and comments such as this by David MacVicar#169

"If the mood changes democratic will and rights in modern society must allow that expressed in a referendum at any time"

are very dangerous indeed.


It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)

231

Publius,

Girvan 17/06/2007 12:37:12

#254 AM2 Bertie Ahern has mentioned public expenditure in Northern Ireland government several times. He says it is is the new Irish National Development Plan. Sorry I don't know the link to the new plan.
The quality of Irish education has been a key feature in inward investment by companies such as Intel and Microsoft. Irish schoolleavers and graduates are better in English and Maths than ours.
Anyway, back to the referendum. What will happen if there is a referendum and the result is very close? Will the losers accept the result?

232

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 12:39:10

Am2

All your commentry should be struck from the record you are clearly anti Irish aswell as Anti Scots.

There is nothing purile about simple questions

233

Publius,

Girvan 17/06/2007 12:47:45

#252; #261 It is not practicable to allow ex-pats to vote in a referendum. How would you know who is a Scot and who isn't? Would Scots resident in England be able to vote? Would then have to return to Scotland to vote or could they do it by post?
It is not desirable either. Ex-pats won't be affectedby the result. The rest of us will be.

234

LondonScot,

London 17/06/2007 12:51:15

According to the Electoral Commission UK Citizens living overseas are entitled to register to vote in UK Parliamentary and Eoropean Parliament Elections but not in local eleections.

http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/FAQ/OverseasVoters.cfm?Offic...

If we assume that a referendum on the future of Scotland's status is at least as important as a UK parliament seat does this mean that someone living outside the UK who is Scottish by birth will be able to vote whilst a UK based but not Scotland based resident will not?

235

livilion,

livingston 17/06/2007 12:52:02

267. AM2, Glasgow
Yes the English incomers who come settle here should rightfully be called British settlers?

These to be distinguished from those who want to turn the place into their own little version of Brigadoon who are recognised here as 'white settlers'.

236

Bob Blair,

Stirling 17/06/2007 12:59:18

I say good on the Tories, lets have a vote on independance. It is the right of the people to choose whether or not they want to remain part of the UK. Its nice to see that someone has their finger on the pulse for a change, there is a growing resentment in England over Scotland.

I believe that with the right people in power, the pulling in of oil and business revenues to Hollyrood not Westminster Scotland will prosper. Dont beleive the lies about Scotland being broke without England, this is not the case. If you need clarification of this then why not read the Cullen report on the subject of Scottish Independance. If we dont grasp the opportunity now then it will be too late. There are over 20-30 years of oil left in the North Sea that belongs to Scotland, this is estimated to be worth around £850 Billion by todays prices. If this money is invested properly then the money generated from oil needn't ever run out. Between 1979 and 1995 Scotland for what it contributed to the Exchequer and was spent on Scotland we over paid by some 25 Billion pounds. Not a huges about of money but considering the population of Scotland to be 5 million that money could have made a difference. Now consider that Oil prices are about double what they were then.

#Bad bill# Your comments amount to being pro dictatorship, using Zimbabwe and Russia as example are low. Maybe you are living in the wrong country if you beleive that the minority should decide for the majority.

The vote is not about falling out with England it is about wanting what is best for your country.

I am a YES in the vote for independance.

237

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 12:59:55

Of the northern unionist persuasion perhaps?

Enough said.

238

Mark1,

17/06/2007 13:00:11

#266

hilarious!

Answer the mans questions!!

Nothing in what he said was purile in the slightest ya big jessie.

239

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 13:01:34

Am2

Irish during#273, Brit on every other post.

Youve been rumbled pal

240

Bryan McC,

Ayrshire 17/06/2007 13:03:50

For once the Tories seem to be thinking tactically, and about time too.
However, a referendum on leaving the UK is meaningless. There is no point to it whatsoever as the SNP intend to take us in/ keep us in the EU. So nothing will change and Scotland will still really be ruled from Brussels.
The only referendum worth having is one on the joint question of Scotland in the UK and the EU. One without the other is a pointless exercise.

241

drake's drum,

North Britain 17/06/2007 13:05:41

Reading the above comments just shows what self-defeating drivel Richard Cook and Jackson Carlaw MSP (yes, undoubtedly he...) come up with in the name of 'Unionism/Toryism' - all it has done is spark off the debate about separatism!
No wonder we are completely irrelevant to ordinary working people in Scotland and the UK.
Young people can't find a decent job as manufacturing has imploded, house prices are out of most peoples reach primarily due to rampant immigration, debt is a national disgrace and consumerism is undoubtedly the new god.
How about a Tory Party speaking out for an immediate block on all immigration and repatriation of assylum seekers, withdrawal from EU and policies to restore fishing and farmingn and manufacturing, and an end to Blair's destruction of our Constitution using the 'anti-sectarianism/racist' agenda to hoodwink the nation as to his real intentions. Look at the Knighthood for Salman Rushdie - stir up the hatred of Muslims and use the Queen as a target/bait. Blair should be hung for treason!
Cook and Carlaw just ignored!

242

Publius,

Girvan for the weekend 17/06/2007 13:08:42

#271 London-based Scot
Right on! And if you think of it not everyone born in Scotland thinks they are Scottish. They may have had English parents who returned to England when they were still children. And what about the spouses of ex-Pats who married non-Scots?
I too am a London-based Scot (although I did manage to get on the register in Girvan - as well as London).

243

Bob Blair,

Stirling 17/06/2007 13:10:43

One more point to make here, there was a vote on Independance back in 1979. Believe it or not the majority of Scotland voted for independance.

http://www.alba.org.uk/referenda/devo.html

Sadly things were deliberately stacked against this result carrying through.

Come on people vote YES for independance.

244

,

17/06/2007 13:11:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 715653, Article id was mapped to record!
245

livilion,

livingston 17/06/2007 13:18:10

#271. LondonScot, London

Bottom line, as this referendum is going to be be sponsored by Holyrood then the eligibilty will be that for Holyrood elections and the rules will be the same as for elections held for office at Holyrood but obviously without the regional/list shennanigans.

If you are not on the Holyrood electoral register its then for you to to get yourself onto that register by satisfying the residency criteria.

btw This is not about ethnicity, this is about giving the 'Scots' who live here the choice, whether they be gaels, lowlanders, celtic, English, European, Scandic, American, Asian, African or whatever..

This is about giving the people who normally live within Scotland more say in the running of their own goverment.

246

mesmiths,

17/06/2007 13:20:28

"We have to make the positive case for the Union. The whole nation benefits. We should be setting out that position. The positive case is not being made." Mr Cook- It is not being made for a very good reason. If it were an effective proposition (and not flimsy and ridiculous) then there would be much less emphasis placed upon trying to scare people into fearing a future of self determination outside the uk and inside the eu.
Bring on a referendum. However how on earth will there be a proper debate when not one national paper takes an open minded stance on the issue (probably due to the distinct lack of Scottish owned papers). In an era when newspapers are having their sales squeezed their lack of imagination amazes me. Public opinion and demand is crying out for a paper that takes a pro independence stance and slays the myths and ignorance about the issue regularly elevated to the position of percieved fact.

247

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 17/06/2007 13:20:58

# 247 Cynical Peter

You said : "If the pro Independence lobby cannot convince a really significant proportion of Scots that this change is desireable then we are left with the status quo, surely?"

I might say. "If the pro unionist lobby cannot convince a really significant proportion of Scots that the status quo is desireable then we are left with only Independence as a viable future, surely?"

Actually, when you think about it, both arguments are full of holes. If I ask three children if they would like to go to the zoo today, one says, "Yes, please", one says, "No, not today", and the third doesn't even bother to look up from what he is doing.........should the third child's "choice" decide whether we go to the zoo or not?

I would say, no. You can only decide by counting the votes of those who care enough to make a choice. The others have chosen not to take part, have chosen not to express a preference. It is cetainly not up to you, or me, to second guess what they "want". They don't "want" anything. They have told you that by not helping to decide.

Only those taking part in a vote help to decide the outcome. The rest have discounted themselves.

And a majority of these voting is a majority. No ifs or buts.

248

IWright,

17/06/2007 13:23:32

Am2
So you're Irish and British. Fair ebnough, but are you Scots as well? (you'd have the complete set!)

249

,

17/06/2007 13:24:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 715679, Article id was mapped to record!
250

An Australian,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 13:30:59

137: sure, if Scotland were anything like Sweden or Norway, it would be taken seriously--but not for the kilts and the bagpipes...

251

Mark1,

17/06/2007 13:31:10

#292

yes, it is all much clearer now.

The fire and brimstone unionism makes perfect sense!

252

livilion,

livingston 17/06/2007 13:34:32

#293. AM2, Glasgow
Just for information, how would you describe Ulster Scots?

253

,

17/06/2007 13:36:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 715694, Article id was mapped to record!
254

Home Rule for Pertyck,

Glasgow (a town near Pertyck Brig) 17/06/2007 13:36:32

Good Grief!

There are still great numbers out there who actually believe this story!

Did none of the posters see Mr Cook on The Politics Show two hours ago? He could not name a single Tory MSP who backed him. The best he could no was claim "5 or so" MSPs were "broadly supportive" of his plan to end business uncertainty and that the logical conclusion to that was an independence referendum. SoS -and its readers- have been sold a pup, pretended it was a pig and put it in a poke. Never buy a pig in a poke.

255

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 17/06/2007 13:38:57

AM2 is getting comments removed now that he cannot argue against

256

Gareth,

Ottawa 17/06/2007 13:39:32

Pablius I disagree that Expats won't be affected by the result, all of us will see our citizenship of the UK and Europe changed - we'll have to swap our UK/EU passports for Scottish ones, and those may or may not be EU ones since thats a matter that could only be decided post-independence.

Imagine you were a Scot Expat working in Germany and suddenly you had to leave Germany because you weren't an EU citizen anymore. Expats should definitely get to vote in this as it does affect everyone who is Scottish, regardless their present location in the world.

257

George Livingstone,

Helensburgh 17/06/2007 13:40:23

For the Tories this is not about being pro-Scottish. This is clearly a plot against the cause for independence. It is too early to hold a referendum. The SNP has undeniably shown itself to be competent and ambitious, smashing the hitherto pessimistic view of the party. However, the SNP need much more time to gain more credibility re domestic policies and prove they are a pragmatic party of government. The unionists know this so they aim for the fox while it is young. If the outcome of this premature vote is negative,which at the moment it would be, we can wave goodbye to the prospect of a sovereign Scotland ever being realised while the unionists are about.

258

,

17/06/2007 13:40:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 715707, Article id was mapped to record!
259

cabrach loon,

înverness 17/06/2007 13:44:24

Any referendum should be held later rather than sooner. The SNP should first demonstrate the ability of their government to do its best for Scotland and in particular to ignore all types of socialist and other dogma based on creed and rote rather than the real needs and desires of the nation as a whole, Scotland is much more than the Glagow, Edinburgh connurbations and their very different desires! So much of Scotland is rural and deserves a proper and real understanding without being oppressed by a load of PC townies!!

260

pehman,

sussex 17/06/2007 13:45:39

Each day that passes sees more positive action from the SNP Government. Each new policy put into action, sees more people leaning to the SNP and some turning into SNP voters and even activists.

The Tory fear is the longer the referendum is delayed, Then the potential at least for a yes vote is increased.
Take this with the forthcoming action by GB to cut the Scottish budget, bringing it into line with England, and the backlash therefrom could well prove a massive incentive for Independence.
For this reason alone, the SNP must stick to plan

261

George Livingstone,

17/06/2007 13:45:41

For the Tories this is not about being pro-Scottish. This is clearly a plot against the cause for independence. It is too early to hold a referendum. The SNP has undeniably shown itself to be competent and ambitious, smashing the hitherto pessimistic view of the party. However, the SNP need much more time to gain more credibility re domestic policies and prove they are a pragmatic party of government. The unionists know this so they aim for the fox while it is young. If the outcome is negative,which at the moment it would be, we can wave goodbye to the prospect of a sovereign Scotland ever being realised while the unionists are about.

262

IWright,

17/06/2007 13:51:38

#293
AM2 - You've taken my question in completely the wrong spirit. I'm not asking you to 'confess' anything.

"Last I checked, "Irish" and "Scots" were mutually exclusive."

You need to update your check - since the Good Friday Agreement there's been an upsurge in Northern Irish people considering themselves Ulster-Scots. You can be Irish and Scots, I was just wondering if you were.

263

Home Rule for Pertyck,

Glasgow (a town near Pertyck Brig) 17/06/2007 13:56:45

STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_STOP_


BEFORE ANYONE ELSE MAKES A FOOL OF THEMSELVES, PRETEND THAT TODAY'S DATE IS APRIL FIRST. THEN DECIDE HOW MUCH CREDENCE TO LEND THIS YARN.

See my posts, #151, #299 as well as on the editorials.

264

livilion,

livingston 17/06/2007 13:59:56

280. Bryan McC, Ayrshire
>>>However, a referendum on leaving the UK is meaningless<<<.
I agree, the question is not so much about taking Scotland out of anything, it is asking:
Wouldn't we benefit from making our own choices for the benefit of all residents of Scotland on areas such as:

Constitutional matters
Foreign policy
Defence and national security
Fiscal and economic policy
Immigration and nationality
Energy: electricity, coal, oil, gas, nuclear energy, clean technology and renewables
Common markets
Trade and industry, including competition and customer protection
Drugs law
Broadcasting
Elections and the registration and funding of political parties
Transport, including aviation, railways, transport safety and regulation
Employment legislation and health and safety
Social security
Gambling and the National Lottery
Data protection
Firearms, extradition and emergency powers
Medicines, abortion, human fertilisatio and embryology, genetics, xenotransplantation and vivisection
Equal opportunities
Treason and misprision of treason
Regulation of time zones and Summer Time
Fishing
Weights and measures: Units and standards of weight and measurement. Regulation of trade so far as involving weighing, measuring and quantities
Competition law

Today legislation on these areas of our vital national interest are handed down from Westminster, not surprisingly, on the basis of what is best for that proportion of the British Isles within commuting distance of Parliament in London, which vastly outnumbers the Scottish population.

265

drake's drum,

North Britain 17/06/2007 14:02:54

Sadly, there is credence to this story. Be in no doubt.

266

Exiledlassie,

17/06/2007 14:06:35

#6
You had better move back home if you want to vote.
We live in both Scotland and Canada and are on the voters role in Scotland, but can not vote in Scottish elections/ referenda as we are short of the number of days we live in the country. We are, however, allowed to vote in UK elections and to do that we do not need to live in the country at all.

If I could I'd vote yes too

267

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 14:08:05

#300

Is it not rather odd to claim that despite hailing from Ulster, and being a Unionist that you are somehow not an Ulster Unionist?

If it walks like a duck……………………………………………………

268

sgar,

glasgow 17/06/2007 14:11:23

"it is too early to hold a referendum.." there are some very funny - pecuklair - ideas about democracy and freedom. It is my game qnd they are my rules

269

sgar,

glasgow 17/06/2007 14:11:53

"it is too early to hold a referendum.." there are some very funny - pecular - ideas about democracy and freedom. It is my game qnd they are my rules

270

James,

Dundee 17/06/2007 14:19:47

#293 AM2

Actually you are wrong.

The Term Scotch/Irish or Ulster Scots I assume are terms you are will familiar with.


I belong to one of these classifications. You may well too?

271

livilion,

livingston 17/06/2007 14:20:45

315. drake's drum

No I disagree, the SoS named the sources:

Conservative leaders
The party's vice-chairman
Several Tory MSPs
Conservative supporters of the plan
Vice-chairman, Richard Cook
Tories on both sides of the Border
A surge of English resentment south of the Border
Former Scottish Secretary Michael Forsyth
Tory MPs south of the Border close to party leader David Cameron
Tory supporters of the move

So you see its not as if SoS has gone to Richard Cook and just asked him if he was in favour of an independence referendum, even Tory MPs south of the border close to David Cameron are in favour of it.

To suggest that SoS is having a slow news day and is making up stories just to fill column inches would not, I'm sure, be supported by MSPs close to the First Minister.

272

Alan Reid,

NZ 17/06/2007 14:22:52

And now for something completely different!!

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article266429...

But hey we could always store it in Scotland!!! What a surprise!

273

Jambo Alex,

Aotearoa 17/06/2007 14:24:16

I think this is Splendid news.

Not sure that I trust the Tories on this one but if they are honest then I reckon that the Lib Dems and Labour should follow the Tories reasoning of at least letting the Scottish people decide.

I will vote for Independence in a referendum and once we properly debate all the issues and move beyond the scare mongering, the Scots (wherever we may be!) will I believe support an independent Scotland.

274

Charles1234,

17/06/2007 14:31:18

AM2, "Anti-Irish?! ROFL... I am Irish!"

Irish? AM?

The AM doesn't stand for a certain former Labour party 'special advisor" who got into a bit of bother for postings on newsgroups regarding Plaid Cymru? Using monikers like "David Currie" and "Hairy Melon Jones"?

The same one who had connections with Trevor Phillips' run for London Mayor?

Who Iain Dale featured for running this?:

http://hatemytory.com/rate.html

The same AM who whilst he is a loyal member of the British Labour party in Scotland, Wales and England magically turns into an SDLP supporter in Northern Ireland. The SDLP which supports a united Ireland independent of London or what the Labour party euphemistically call "breaking up the UK".

275

Exiledlassie,

Scotland/Canada/NZ 17/06/2007 14:32:47

#17
How many families do you have?
Or did you mean 'family's'? :)

How can you tell Gareth, myself or anyone else who has 'left' Scotland that we have no stake in this?
Why should we think of ourselves as Canadian or any other nationality but Scots?
Have you noticed how the English, Polish etc, who have moved to Scotland, have given up thinking or acting in an English/ Polish manner and have become Scots?

Nationality does not come from a passport nor where you live; it is far deeper, one might say in the soul. As far back as we can, so far trace (1200s), my family are all Scots on both sides; I was born, raised and educated there, I worked there (still do) and I have all my family (except spouse and child) there. I will NEVER be anything but a Scot.
I respect and honour Canada and will uphold her laws, but I am not now nor ever will be a Canadian. I see that idea as disrespectful to Canadians. You can not acquire a nationality by being given a passport, it has to come from the heart; which is precisely why 'multiculturalism' does not work. The hearts of most immigrants are still rooted and grounded in their own country; as it the case with most ex-pat Scots.

Many of us; like Dekester and others; still contribute to the economy of Scotland, both financial and cultural and some of us may actually move home if Scotland were independent.

Of course there has to be a cut of point and it has been decided that those of us who live outside of the country for a certain number of days can not vote; that is a purely practical, political decision.
Please, do not make it personal.

As you know, a Scots nationality is very dear to him/her and telling us to consider ourselves as something else is highly insulting. Just keep it administrative, we can't vote and right or wrong that is how it is; we are still Scots and fiercely proud of it.

276

Alamo,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 14:34:24

It's quite simple really who should have the vote:-

If you pay your taxes in Scotland , you get to vote.

End of....

277

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 17/06/2007 14:36:00

325

Jambo, your prediction is as rubbish as your team. The inevitable "no" vote will set independence back decades.

278

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 17/06/2007 14:36:57

330

Alamo, does Sean Connery pay his whack in Scotland?

279

DaiThePeace,

Aberdeenshire 17/06/2007 14:37:58

While it APPEARS at present that an Independence referendum would support the status quo, the whole point of a genuine referendum/ election is that you don't KNOW what the result will be beforehand.

Winston Churchill was so certain that he would win in 1945 that he called a General Election BEFORE World War II was over (it was over in Europe but not in Japan).

In fact, Labour won by a landslide. However, Churchill showed his astuteness by handing in his resignation as Prime Minister to King George VI BEFORE all the results were in, knowing that if he waited the new Parliamentary Labour Party would elect someone further to the Left than Clement Attlee. As it was, the King had to invite the current Labour leader to (try to - but there was no doubt) form a Government.

280

Webbie,

Mullingar, Ireland 17/06/2007 14:45:51

I would love a vote in any Scottish referendum but as I live in Ireland I only get a vote in a UK general election. As a UK citizen I am allowed to vote in Irish local and national elections but not in constitutional referendums or presidential elections, only Irish citizens, and am allowed a vote in EU elctions and referendum . So it seems the solution is to make it a EU referendum on whether Scotland can separate itself from the UKOGB&NI and join the EU but as there is no such thing as a Scottish passport how would you ensure that only Scots living in the EU got a vote. I hate to say this but it must only be for people living in Scotland regardless of their passport designation. As we are all Jock Tamsons bairns even the non Scots could be made to see the good in a pro vote and give Scotland its reclaimed, self denied, place in a bigger world.

281

David Milligan,

West Dunbartonshire 17/06/2007 14:51:03

Initially, when SNP were voted in, my first reaction was to hope that the long awaited referendum was finally going to happen but realising that there are too many Scots who have always voted Labour and will find it hard to change, I also realise that a referendum at this time might be a mistake. No3 "Dick" is absolutely right in his analysis of the situation. The right way is to wait until after the outcome of the next General Election. If the Tories win, the Scots will be horrified and choose Independence and if the Labour win the English will be seen as "fickle" (in Dicks words) and revolt - thus a positive vote for Independence again.
The Scots need Independence. I lived in england for 18 years and can assure you that we are considered as the poor relative. I know that as a nation we have pride but we need to break political ties with the English and give them a run for their money. I other words - I'm sick of being considered the poor relative when I've got a fortune buried in my back garden (Oil). Well done Dick for posing such a concise point.

282

ailein,

Germany 17/06/2007 14:52:34

Is it possible to be Scottish without being British? Of course! If I gave up my British passport and exchanged it for a German one (I would be perfectly entitled to one), then I would no longer be British, but just as "Scottish" as beforehand.

283

Jim P,

Netherlands 17/06/2007 14:53:28

#Alamo

End of....?

Are you suggesting that over 18's in Scotland who are not tax payers should not get the vote?

284

Jim P,

Netherlands 17/06/2007 14:55:26

#Alamo

You say
"If you pay your taxes in Scotland , you get to vote."

If I pay a little tax in Scotland, but live overseas, should I get the vote?

285

OscarMacApfel,

17/06/2007 15:05:59

"It's quite simple really who should have the vote:-

If you pay your taxes in Scotland , you get to vote.

End of...."


But, but, but that would mean three quarters of the Labour vote would disappear!

286

European Scot,

17/06/2007 15:10:06

331

" The inevitable "no" vote will set independence back decades. "

Really ?
A quote from:-

Sunday Telegraph
27/11/2006

The United Kingdom should be broken up and Scotland and England set free as independent nations, according to a huge number of voters on both sides of the border.

A clear majority of people in both England and Scotland are in favour of full independence for Scotland, an ICM opinion poll for The Sunday Telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of Scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of English voters want Scotland to go it alone.
Britain wants UK break up, poll shows

Inevitable !

287

megz,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 15:11:42

Honestly i don't know what to make of it. On the one hand i want a referendum, but on the other i really want the outcome to be one that i want.

why don't we have a little poll of our own, independence yes or no?

I say yes

288

dave evans,

manchester 17/06/2007 15:13:30

#322

That's excellent...I'm sick of winging Scots.

289

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 17/06/2007 15:17:41

#335

But any party could propose a referendum, are the SNP reallly going to oppose a referendum just baceause they think it is too early, you can imagine what the people and the press would think of that.

290

Pender,

Toronto, Canada 17/06/2007 15:18:06

VOTE YES FOR INDEPENDENCE!

If we get it I for one will serioiusly consider coming home and then I can vote too in all future elections.

291

OscarMacApfel,

17/06/2007 15:18:54

Symbian, that's a freaky link and it does make you wonder about our own verbose AM.


Adrian McMenanamanamanamamanman, interesting..strokes chin in possible conspiratorial fashion...

292

Dennis Skinner,

Not Bolsover 17/06/2007 15:19:16

331. Patrick O'Reilly, Coatbridge says "Jambo, your prediction is as rubbish as your team"

What is your team? The Teds, mayhap?

293

okanaganguy,

kelowna,b.c. Canada 17/06/2007 15:21:46

Master Mariner: You are absolutely right. Why should anyone who doesn't live in Scotland have a vote. I was born there also but as a Canadian, i have no right to vote on your future. I would not like it one bit if ex pats had a voice in what we do here in Canada. A vote as important as becoming a sovereign state should be left to the people who will be directly affected by that vote, regards

294

megz,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 15:21:54

#346 thats ok i trust you

295

Jim P,

Netherlands 17/06/2007 15:22:53

#214 David el escocés, Málaga / 11:47am

I didn't see any responses to your question about Scots ex-pat's right to vote in a referendum. I tried to get a vote in the May election which is how I discoverd the following which I've posted before:

For information. Scots who are resident overseas are not allowed to vote in the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Check this at the votescotland website, where you will find instructions on obtaining a postal vote, which specifically states:

"As an overseas voter, you are eligible to vote in
elections for the UK Parliament and the European
Parliament. You cannot vote in UK local or mayoral
elections, or elections to the Scottish Parliament, the
National Assembly for Wales or the London Assembly."

http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/documents/Combined-Overseas-...

There must be people around from the time of the 1997 referendum - anyone ken the answer?

Scottish not British,
Jim P

296

Buchanan,

California 17/06/2007 15:32:43

17. master-mariner, at sea. / 2:17am 17 Jun 2007

"15 No. This only effects you on an emotional level, this is my & my families that why the answer has to be no to emigrants such as your self, you have no real stake in this."

Are you for real ? In any case thanks for setting the
qualification for us Scots emigrants - I guess that since in the case of my wife and myself all of our families still live in Scotland we qualify to vote under your terms, rather than just being 'emotionally' involved. Your insular and myopic view point only serves to strengthen why Scotland would benefit from active participation of the many Scots that have traveled overseas and have expanded their horizons.

Also I guess by implication you want to change the rules for Westminster so that the vote can be removed from emigrants ? Although I guess you are probably hypocritical enough to be ok
with one rule for the British and one rule for the second tier Scots.

297

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfropolis 17/06/2007 15:33:29

Dennis, #350 Seriously, how many Teds fans do you think there are called Paddy O'Reilly?

298

Pender,

Toronto, Canada 17/06/2007 15:33:29

I think I remember not being able to vote in the 1997 referendum but I was very annoyed to learn that I could vote in the UK parliament elections - was this another ploy by our friends at Westminster to ensure that a vote for Independence didn't win.
I remember calling the British Embassy in Ottawa to find out how I could vote and they said I couldn't but I could vote in the UK Parliament election? Why is that I wonder - it should be consistent at the very least. If you can't vote in one you can't vote in the other.

299

Transparent?,

Scotland 17/06/2007 15:34:28

#218. Well done!

Now tell us how to prevent the shambles and cheating we witnessed at the May election?

300

macca 316x2z,

aldershot home on RnR 17/06/2007 15:34:49

Heres one for all the people who say only people in Scotland should get to vote.
What about us Scots in the forces who because of work live in England surely ive got as much right as any other Scotsman to vote, it affects me and my family as much as anybody!

301

David Milligan,

West Dunbartonshire 17/06/2007 15:40:48

In No 323 "the english country gentleman" AKA toryheaven.blogspot.com, Edinburgh / 9:21am 17 Jun 2007 wrote ;-

If we are going to have this vote then will the English be allowed to vote too? After all, when Czechoslovakia was split both the Czechs and the Slovaks were polled, not just one side. Seems fair to me. It wouldn't surprise me, if bothsides wre given the chance to vote here, if the English were to vote in their droves for independence, but not enough Scots did. After all, the English are pretty sick of hearing about what is going on in devolved Scoland and Wales but not in Engand: first it was free care for the elderly (Scoland), then scrapping prescription charges (Wales), and now the end to the graduate endowment with a specific exclusion of English students (Scotland). Scotland could never be the big government, benefit junkie counry it is were it to be fiscally autonomous. Most Scots realise this, and would be likely to vote against independence in order to retain the fatted English calf. So, we might well have the bizarre situation of Scotland voting against independence but Engand in favour. What a sorry state that would be: actually being chucked out of the Union, rather than walking away. Those to blame would be the architects of the lop sided devolutionay settlement, New Labour.

I would keep the Union, but force an end to te culture of high spending government in Scotland by making the Scottish executive fund all of its spending entirely from Scottish raised revenues. That would be a blast of icy cold water to a country that lives like it had a basic income tax rate of 30% not 22%.

My considered response is;-

I have been divorced in the past and where I wanted to get divorced for unreasonable behaviour, my solicitor advised me that it would be costly and time consuming to go down this road - he instead advised me to allow my ex-wife to divorce me for adultery. The analogy being that I dont care how we get indep

302

Pender,

Toronto, Canada 17/06/2007 15:40:50

Does anyone know if this is true? I recall also that in the last vote for Independence anyone who had died in Scotland that year and didn't show up to vote were counted as a NO vote against Independence! and Scots abroad weren't allowed to vote - we might have lost the vote but what chance did we have with the stunts Westminster pulled to ensure they did get extra votes - HOPE THE SNP GET ALL THESE RULES IRONED OUT THIS TIME AROUND!!!

303

pehman,

sussex 17/06/2007 15:49:21

Jim P 353,
Jim all you have to do is declare to a former address. Mines in Coatbridge, though I left 9 years ago. At least it works at the last election but I don't know about a referendum.

304

Buchanan,

California 17/06/2007 15:53:43

114. Rulesbutnotrulers, Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them. / 8:11am 17 Jun 2007

A welcome poll.

" But will SNP insist we keep voting until we get it right; and then deny further polls when we all realise our error?"

Yes the SNP will have poll after poll if needed until Scotland regains its self-respect and self-confidence so that it can successfully govern herself as a fully independent & sovereign country. And of course, as Alex had already said, we will be more than happy to allow a reverse poll should Scotland want to rejoin the Union. Of course no one other of the ex-colonies which has escaped the British Empire has chosen to rejoin, but Scotland might be the first when it sees the error of it ways :)

305

lilywhite,

borders 17/06/2007 16:13:03

Wouldn't it be nice if the editors of all the newspapers and media organisations could promise to give a total neutral and fair coverage of any referendum if it happens.

FAT CHANCE

306

Transparent?,

Scotland 17/06/2007 16:17:10

#359.

You have made some interesting points there, but no matter what you say or do, the MSPs will have their cake and eat it. And yes, the non-SNP Scots do know which side their bread is buttered on.

307

okanaganguy,

kelowna,b.c. Canada 17/06/2007 16:21:20

exiled lassie: As a Canadian, i am proud of my Scottish birth. However, first and foremost, i am Canadian and that is where my allegiance lies. There are many folks who have lived here for years who enjoy the great life and opportunities which this country has to offer but refuse to become Canadian citizens. I will say again: If you don't live in Scotland, you should not have the right to vote on such an important issue. I don't want ex pats living in Scotland deciding what happens here. If this vote is so important to you, then i suggest you move back so you can exercise that right as a citizen of Scotland, regards

308

Florence,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 16:21:32

I wonder if, perchance, Mr. Cook could expand on "the uncertainty being created to business" and also enlighten us by naming some of the "business people who are delaying taking business decisions at the moment". Unless he is prepared to do so, he should shut up.

309

Pud Pu,

New York City 17/06/2007 16:25:17

It is a wholly undemocratic move to allow the north british to vote on the future of the union. Any refurendum should also ask the good people of south britain what future they see for the UK. I propose that if the seperatists fail in their dastardly scheming that we rename the whole island England once and for all.
God save the union and her glorious majesty. No surrender !

PUD

310

Bob Blair,

Stirling 17/06/2007 16:26:25

322#

You obviously dont know anything about oil or gas and what it is worth, you seem to be of the impression that you subsidise Scotland somehow. Your post is an excellent example of the lies that have been spoon fed to us all over the last 30 or so years. There is a report that further backs my statement, the cullen report that was commissioned outlining the risk of Scotland being independant. This pretty much points out that within 20 years Scotland would be a significant financial power in Europe and that Scotland would have more money that it would know what to do with. As I said before 1979 - 1995 Scotland paid more in to the exchequer that is saw back by some 25 Billion.

Everyone should make up their own minds on the matter, not by what you are told by Westminster but by hard fact. We have about 30 years of Oil and Gas left in the North Sea that belongs to Scotland, by Todays prices worth around 850 Billion. To a population of 5 million that is alot, think of the economy and business infrastructure we could build with some of that money.

In response to all other posts who refer to us as Whinging Scots: We are not whinging we only want what is best for our country, we are not saying that independance signifies a falling out of sorts. We believe that we are best to manage our own affairs as a separate nation. The last refferendum did produce a YES vote in Scotland, but we were denied the result due to some underhanded Labour involvement. Wouldnt you as a nation too Whinge if you have been conned.

311

,

17/06/2007 16:28:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
312

Jim P,

Netherlands 17/06/2007 16:29:57

#361 pehman

Thanks, I'm due to be back in Scotland in 2009. It does annoy me that I couldn't vote in May.

Here's a link tae yer Dundee pal, St Andrew. It's rerr tae be alehv, is it?

http://members.aol.com/dinnaastme/index.htm

Must get efter AM2 now.

313

Bob Blair,

Stirling 17/06/2007 16:31:58

# 368.

Well said, what about the Carbon recycle plant that would have generated 1000 jobs in Peterhead, that never transpired due to the incompentence of the Westminster Government. In a town like Peterhead that would have made such a difference for the economy and employment in that area.

The other parties are out to scaremonger with comments like this. The question is can we afford not to go independant.

314

eric,

Lothian 17/06/2007 16:33:14

Most of my family are Rangers fans some are RC and Non dom,We will vote yes for independence.
lets dump the bigots and move forward wether they like it or not.

315

,

17/06/2007 16:33:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
316

Pender,

Toronto, Canada 17/06/2007 16:33:31

#367 - I am a Canadian Citizen - I had my Canadian Passport before I stepped foot in this country as my father was born in Luscar, Alberta. He returned to Scotland when he was 6 months old and lived there for the remainder of his life. I have lived in this country for 17 years. I totally agree with you that ex pats living abroad "Permanently" shouldn't have a right to vote in Scottish elections - I am asking the question why then are we allowed to vote in the UK Parliament elections? Again rules for England and different rules for the North.

317

wisdom,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 16:35:32

Any support for a referendum coming from the Tories in Scotland should be treated with great suspicion.....the question of who is and who isn't permitted to vote in the referundum must be decided in Holyrood,not in Westminster,Brussels,the U.N. or elsewhere but in anycase should be restricted to those BORN SCOTS....those with power and money NEVER GIVE it away....if independence is negotiated with Westminster ,or any other international organisation,then it will be a form of independence which secures the rights and privileges of THE CITY and all the others who have their snouts in the trough....make no mistake,TRUE INDEPENDENCE will not be given,or come easily.Scotland was and is an important part of the British Financial System.If we examine all the other cases where independence have been negotiated or given,from Eire to India,there is always a handicap imposed by Westminster....will Scotland be treated any differently? as the most important of all Westminster's POSSESSIONS an independent Scotland will be trussed up and hamstrung from the outset...the Tories and other Unionists are never to be trusted...they all serve masters outside of Scotland who have no genuine interest in the wellbeing of the Scots.

318

Jim P,

Netherlands 17/06/2007 16:40:01

#365 AM2

"Scotland is a fully integrated part of the United Kingdom"

You still don't get it. Here is what R.L.S. had to say on the subject. (This is quoted from The Border Line by James Logan Mack).

“There is nothing perhaps more puzzling…than the great gulf that is set between England and Scotland….Here are two people almost identical in blood…the same in language and religion ; and yet a few years of quarrelsome isolation…in comparison with the great historical cycles – have so separated their thoughts and ways, that not unions nor mutual dangers, nor steamers nor railways, nor all the king’s horses and all the king’s men seem able to obliterate the broad distinction.”

You need to understand that this distinction exists; it is not a simple matter of administrative, economic or political union.

319

Eve,

Scotland 17/06/2007 16:41:39

#34. Majamalete: Who's no on the on the electoral register? That care one way or another, except those who are to young to vote BUT alas some of them don't care either.

The people of Scotland need some serious empowering and the only way we'll get it is through independence. If the people are in control of the politics then they'll feel more in control of their own life and will feel more empower and could choice healthier patterns within their life or at least healthier, cause we wouldn't be so down so often.

The union is just simply depressing.

320

eric,

Lothian 17/06/2007 16:43:43

Anyonethinking of voting for independence is a unionist?orange nightmare never mind Rangers fans voting for independence eh! me thinks i hit i Raw nerve!

321

wattie>x 1,

17/06/2007 16:44:11

Until quite recently I was allways recognised as a Scotsman as I was born off Scottish parents in Scotland!
I have remained so for my eighty odd years until quite recently when the power and glory seeker Brown; without my personal consent decided I was British, despite my bona fide birth cerificate claiming other-wise.
My grand and great grand children were born in England and recognise that they are English, and quite rightly proud of the fact.
My early schooldays were spent being taught Scottish history and each year we children attended an historical pageant relating my country's continual struggle for its Independence which was hijacked by
a power hungry aristocracy who without any consultation handed it over to a London based government. There were riots in almost every village, town and city throughout our nation showing their disgust with those who betrayed them.
Why in the year 2007,are we still being denied that right to decide what is politically good or bad for our country.
Blair and Brown's New Labour has sent our young service personnel into five undeclared wars to bring freedom and democracy where it was claimed to be denied. Yet arrogantly and contemptuously ignore our nation's right to decide our own future.
How much longer are they going to deny our nation that same DEMOCRATIC right?