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Sex lessons must start at age five

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Published Date: 30 December 2007
SEX education lessons should be given to schoolchildren as young as five as part of a bid to combat soaring levels of teenage pregnancy and sexual disease, Scotland's most senior public health doctor said last night.
Dr Charles Saunders, chairman of the British Medical Association's Scottish consultants' committee, warned that schools were leaving the safe-sex message so late that many teenagers were already exposing themselves to avoidable risk.

Saunders also called for secondary schools to hand out condoms and other forms of contraception to children from the age of 13.

His comments are the most radical call for reform of sex education in Scotland ever to be made by such a senior doctors' leader.

Last night, parents' groups gave Saunders' remarks their cautious backing and the Scottish Government said it was up to individual schools to decide when to begin sex education. But the Catholic Church in Scotland said it would oppose any such move, describing it as "pointless".

Scotland's sexual health record is one of the poorest in the western world. Teenage pregnancies are on the rise with 9,040 in 2005, the latest year for which figures are available, compared with 8,891 in 2004. Cases of sexually transmitted diseases are also rising. In April to June this year, Scottish laboratories saw 4,715 cases of chlamydia – up 6% from 4,468 in January to March.

Saunders, a consultant in public health medicine at NHS Fife, said: "It needs to start at quite an early age, because if you leave it until they are 12 it is too late because some are already experimenting. It probably needs to be started off when children start school. You need to start laying the groundwork to help them and empower them to make decisions and turn things down.

"At five it needs to be a language that they understand and taught in the same way as any other subject. It would be basic mechanics at that age in the same way as you teach a child of that age a tiny amount about geography, a fairly superficial introduction.

"It should start off with relatively simple concepts in the same way as English and science start off with the basics. It could start off with how babies are made and progress from there."

He added: "You need to start somewhere and it makes an awful lot of sense to start long before it's needed, because if you leave it too long you are wasting your time.

"Basically sex education needs to be a whole lot better. It's not just anatomical drawings but what the risks are from infections and what the pros and cons are of having sex or waiting.

"It's not a simple task to get young people empowered enough to use condoms, but it's the key. You want to ensure people are not having sex when they don't want to have it, and that when they do want to have it they are not putting themselves at risk."

Saunders added that all schools should also provide contraception to pupils. Currently contraception is on offer at a small number of schools.

He said: "Particularly in rural areas, schools may well be the only way that pupils can access contraception.

"It may well be that as time goes on it would make sense to have emergency contraception in schools."

The Scottish Government allows local authorities and head teachers to set their own sex education policies, provided they are deemed appropriate to the age of the child and parents are happy with the subject matter.

In the majority of cases children do not learn about sex until Primary Six or Seven, when they are 10 or 11. They are not taught about the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases until secondary school.

A school could introduce sex education in Primary One, provided parents and teachers agreed it was the right move.

Judith Gillespie, development manager of the Scottish Parent Teacher Council, said she was undecided about whether

five was the appropriate age to begin sex education, but she recognised Saunders' concerns.

She said: "We do have to step up our sex education, but if they want to move forward with this they can't just take it into schools, they have to have the support of parents.

"Sex education is an area where schools have to approach parents, and parents have the opportunity to veto it. We need to have a concerted information campaign so that parents understand it."

A spokesman for the teaching union the Educational Institute of Scotland

said: "While it is sensible to examine ways of improving the quality of information available to pupils, we must always take full account of the concerns of both the parents of the children concerned, and the teachers who are expected to deliver sex and relationship education."

However, a spokesman for the Catholic Church said five-year-olds were too young to understand sex.

He said: "When children reach puberty they are able to assimilate information about their own sexuality but they are just not ready at five. It's way over their heads and would be as pointless as giving a five-year-old a talk on alcohol. At the age of 15 it's a different matter."

Public Health Minister Shona Robison

said: "We expect all schools to teach sex and relationships education and we expect them to consult parents about the content of sex and relationships education programmes.

"Any sex and relationships education needs to be appropriate to the age and stage of the pupils involved. Younger pupils might start learning about the broad idea of relationships, and family and friends, for example.

"We are not persuaded of the need to provide emergency contraception on school premises but do want to ensure that such services are available and are accessible in other local facilities."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 December 2007 12:10 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 30/12/2007 00:07:22
"Saunders also called for secondary schools to hand out condoms and other forms of contraception to children from the age of 13."

Great, the good parents try hard but this person wants to hand out invites to UNDERAGE SEX, I wonder how much time is spent by people in positions of power thinking about underage sex?
2

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 30/12/2007 00:21:04
Yes, I agree that something has to be done, but sex education at the age of five? A five-year-old has no sexuality and could make nothing of it. The hormones are not present, because the relevant glands do not start to secrete them until the age of puberty. Granted, the onset of puberty has been coming down the age scale for years, but this is going a bit too far.

3

HMB,

Glasgow 30/12/2007 00:24:10
Withhold all public benefits from teenage parents. Leave them and their families solely financially responsible for their offspring. You want to reduce teenage pregnancies, stop offering financial incentives and rewards.
4

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 00:24:17
Dont agree with this...5 is to young to take in that kind of information and kiddies that young will just ignore it anyway cos its boring...what nonsense...put the money into chipping pedophiles or advanced technology to track the barstewards.....
5

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 00:25:51
4....then watch the crime stats go up as teenage parents go on the rob.....
6

Rabster,

30/12/2007 00:31:18
Those who have read the article and not just the headline might appreciate that what he's suggesting is a long term approach, starting with the basic concepts at an early age, so that children are equipped with the knowledge that will enable them to deal with puberty when it arrives. Nobody is suggesting graphic sexual education and condoms for 5 year olds. Controversial maybe but hardly deserving of being tagged a left-wing idiot.
7

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 30/12/2007 00:31:44
To qualify the above, factual description of the business of procreation, if given as a straight answer if and when the child asks, and without raising the subject specially, will be accepted by a young child like other forms of factual knowledge. As a case-hardened father and uncle I know that this can save embarrassment at a later age.

8

Shamus,

Glasgow 30/12/2007 01:06:08
The Catholic Church, Tony Blair and the Archbishop of Westminster should be put in charge of public morality. Doris Karloff can keep the minutes! Sherie can advise on the Law!
9

Scullion,

Canada 30/12/2007 01:22:11
#4 Hard rules make bad laws.
Education rather than interdiction is always the best way.
How many of us, despite O levels and university educations, have been locked in the heat of passion where a purple haze blots out all logic and thoughts of any consequence that the next 10 minutes might bring. If you haven't, then you haven't lived and cannot comment on the matter. This article points to a solution which mirrors the motto of the Boy Scouts, "Be Prepared".
10

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 30/12/2007 01:34:17
7 Rabster, that's all 'very-well', but we all know,
'very-well' its not the case!
"Saunders" wont be teaching anything to our children!, it will be left up to local schools, that will have their 'Mad-Hatter' opinions on how this so called sex education will be taught, some may try to be 'radical' and 'pull-out-a-condom' in front of 5year olds, don't say it 'wont happen', because it WILL!
TMI for a 5year old! and WONT stop "teenage pregnancy"
11

tomi,

30/12/2007 02:26:06
Sex education for 5 year-olds?

What happens if this "educated" child's natural curiosity leads him to practical expiramentation with a less "educated" child who does not want to be his Ginnypig?

On the sex-offenders list at 6 years old??
12

Aoda,

USA 30/12/2007 03:03:16
It was this kind of thinking that caused the rise in teenage pregancy and diseases. Now you want to extend it to young children.

Dr. Saunders, you are one sick person.
13

MichScot,

USA 30/12/2007 03:46:43
They have done that here, but more like 1st grade (age 6). My daughter calls our town the "teenage pregnancy capital of Michigan", and not without reason. It really has much to do with the parents' approval or disapproval of unmarried pregnancy, but there are still problems even in many of those families. We have been lucky so far. She is 21.
14

W Smith,

Middle East 30/12/2007 04:31:07
Wasn't it Clinton who managed to see a decrease in teenage pregancies in the US when he put a stop to generous social security benefits?

1) The number of single mums has increased by 25% in Scotland since Labour came to power.

2) Girls brought up without a dad are more likely to lose their virginity earlier.

So Labour, with their we-know-better social engineering have helped create this disaster with this 'progressive' and 'modern' socialism.

This has produced almost identical results in Cuba which has an unusually high number of young single mums.

Well done Labour for making sure more Scottish kids grow up in dysfunctional homes.

15

Far East Arab,

Japan 30/12/2007 05:25:43
Having worked at the sharp end of this topic, as a Youth Worker in a secondary school in Dundee, I have seen the effects of uneducated teens having sex. Its time for the Catholic church to butt out of what does not concern them. We have been adhering to their dogma concerning contraception for the last 100 odd years and I think its pretty plain that the church's "Ostrich Stance" does not work. Teenage pregnacies have been on the rise for the last 25 years and sticking your head in the stand and obstinately sticking to your out dated premise has not eased the glut of unwanted, young pregnancies. I don't know when we should be educating our children, all I know is that we HAVE to educate them and educate them now!! I know of countless cases where girls have had multiple abortions by the time they are 16!! Others have been forced to leave school and care for a child when they are nothing but children themselves. Parents shouldn't fear this, for it is working hand in hand with all good parents teaching, however it is putting it out there and that is what parents fear, that their child may become aware of sex as a result....I'm sorry but most children already are aware of sex thanks to todays instant mass media. The time for action is now, before its too late.
16

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 30/12/2007 05:26:00
Did Scotland on Sunday find it necessary to give this guy house room? Did you check if he has a disclosure certificate before letting him loose with this nonsense?
17

,

30/12/2007 05:46:19
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18

Trojan Horse,

Scotland 30/12/2007 05:51:02
The more we talk about sex the more it will happen.Humans are spiritual creatures and the Catholic Church must redouble its efforts in this matter.
19

Trade-wind,

USA 30/12/2007 06:04:26
Please, please, please!!!
listen. if it is on the rise that means that before this they were not having as much sex. Why what was different then that has now changed. We do not need sex ed. we need parent ed. Parents used to be responcible people who talked to their children. The parents of today are children of parents that did not give enough attention to the raising of their children. It has been going in that direction for hell 40 years or better. Each generation has gotten just a little less up bringing from their parents. You cannot expect the State to do your job. Parents need to be held accountable for the upbringing of their children. Keep the state out of the business of raising kids. They are terrible nannies. Oh God nobody gets it any more. Parents don't want the bother of raising the kids they foster, then those kids want just a little less responcibility and on it goes. Scotland wants independance and it people can't even find time to raise their offspring. How sad is that. Good luck!
20

Trade-wind,

USA Just a foot note 30/12/2007 06:20:38
I am over here and have no choice. It will be at least ten more years before I can possibly come home. I am so sick of reading about our youth having babies, killing others, getting fat and on and on. Once proud to hold myself up and proclaim myself a Scot over here. If oor country keeps going doon the wey it is I wouldnae want to stand oot here. Your becoming worse than the Hootsman!
21

Kenny A,

30/12/2007 06:33:51
5 years old is a bit young, and I think childern would start to experiment if they were told what is involved, even if they were not overly sure what it was all about. 11 may be a more appropriate age, some will already be feeling the urge but many will just be about ready to learn about what these feelings are all about.

What buggs me about this article is the fact that if this proposal went ahead , what next, childern are exactly that and they need a time when they can behave like childern.

A little bit of education, a touch of discipline and care and guidence from the parents, to much to ask for.


Probably
22

abiding,

So. Lake Tahoe 30/12/2007 06:40:33
I have a degree in Early Childhood Ed and have worked with kids off & on all my life; I have been step-mom to twins (boy & girl); I have been surrounded by children in both personal & professional life; and am involved in my own ongoing education and research, as all worthwhile educators are. No 5-yr-old is going to understand a lengthy, specific explanation of a perfectly innocent "where do babies come from?" Any educated teacher with a conscience will not force something on a child's mind that the child is not ready for, whether it be the birds 'n bees, or the aerodynamics of how planes fly. That said, parents have to stop abdicating their responsibility and influence as parents, or more Dr. Saunders'es will be taking the reins over and trying to force their misguided notions of child development on unsuspecting parents. Also, what exactly is meant by "emergency contraception"??? Is that where schoolkids in the grip of "the purple haze [of passion]" can run to the nurse's office for a quick supply of condoms to use in the football stands at lunchtime?
23

,

30/12/2007 07:26:54
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24

fife runner,

30/12/2007 07:57:32
the sex education merely talks of sex as being purely mechanical. It misses out the holistic approach such as relationships and morality. It seems the pc brigade think this a bad idea but their ideas have failed. My wife teaches in a secondary and to a person, her senior pupi.s are all sexually active. They took to discussing it during a maths class much to her annoyance and thought it would be funny to try and make fun of one of the boys they thought a virgin. My wife then asked why is this a bad idea to be a virgin to which to her surprise one of the boys said I wish I still were.

Here in UK we seem to have this peer pressure on such matters including alcohol. I listened to a group of Dutch teenagers a few months ago and they would never dream of talking about such matters in this way. Also, if they thought on of their friends was engaging in risky acts, they would confront them. They see no difficulty in moralising why should we.
25

fife runner,

30/12/2007 08:04:03
even the atheist writer Dawkins thinks the sex instinct is not limited to reproduction. We focus too much on the mechanical. If others think I am moralising too much then my reply would be you have failed.
26

Phil241106,

Airdrie 30/12/2007 08:20:40
All of the morons who do not live in the UK and who agree with Saunders .."Stay out of it!" The UK is the worst-off place in Europe for sex-related problems...thanks to the legal rulings of our governments who listen to the many 'Saunderslings'. Let's get back to basics where parents took responsibility for the upbringing of their children in areas of sex education, morality, respectability etc. rather than living their own selfish lives. Where are the parents while their children/teenagers are getting into trouble during the early hours and some, sadly, being injured or worse?
Until parents act as parents, we'll continue to have the wrong answers with well-intentioned, but godless, idiots wasting their time and our money by trying to make a world safe without the God-given answer of parent responsibility and basic Christian living.
27

,

30/12/2007 08:43:13
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28

thinking,

Scotland 30/12/2007 09:01:04
'Scotland's sexual health record is one of the poorest in the western world'
I wonder why that is? could it be because of the'sex education' which says it is OK as long as you take precautions?
Where abstinance is taught, teen preganancies and sexually transmitted diseases have been greatly reduced.
This is not about religion, as many teaching abstinance are not doing it on religious grounds but on commonsense grounds.
We need to stop telling kids that life is about sex but that sex is a part of a much wider life.
29

,

30/12/2007 09:09:25
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30

Robert from Oz,

Brisbane, Australia 30/12/2007 09:40:29
I was shocked at this suggestion. I have a 7 year old daughter who loves to read about fairies, trolls, believes in Santa Claus, is learning about Jesus and God in school and is innocent.

What this will do is take away the innocence from many many little children. We all know how inquisitive our little ones are. I know if I am pulling my PC apart my daughter will come on sit with me and ask a million questions on what all the bits are. And this 'intellectual' is proposing that we put this information into their thoughts so early in life.

We need to protect our children and protect their innocence.
31

Upbeat,

30/12/2007 10:08:38
Until there is a sensible and refreshing discussion about what form the education of five year olds should take, in regard to sexual matters, this remains an appalling concept in Scotland, or even the UK.

It is the British tradition that adults regard sex as being something that should not be discussed openly. Those who do "stoop" to flaunting their sexuality are somehow naughty...if not immoral. This has created a nation totally repressed, that sends confused messages to all children.

Hardly surprising therefore that children muddle up ideas that sex is something adults do and enjoy, with ideas that it is immoral and bad. They are quite justified in their conclusion that adults are only trying to stop them enjoying themselves doing it, by claiming that it is naughty. Seen all around them sex is like forbidden fruit, with all that urgency. The message about the responisibility of sexual relationships is what is missing here.

So it is not a question of simply explaning to five year olds the mechanics of sex, as suggested above. It is a question of explaining the consequences of interfering in another person's right to choose what is best for them. The health risks and the morality along with the mechanics of it all can be introduced at a later age.

32

Calum Crubag,

30/12/2007 10:27:55
I can't believe that the Catholic church, or any church, has the right to opinionate on this matter. The Bible after all is the book that teaches we should mutilate our sons' genitals. God almost killed Moses because he refused to circumcise his son. Does this sound like good morals?

Whether or not 5 years olds should be taught about sex should be decided by edcationalists and health workers. Not by followers of superstitions. Children experment anyway. How many of us did not have a natural curiosity about our sexual organs? The last thing we need is a church - with a shameful record of child abuse - telling us this is 'sinful'!!

Chairman Gordon - left-wing? Please explain. Maybe it's you with the political agenda?
33

Boy Wonder,

30/12/2007 10:30:30
5 is too young. Personally, I think 8 is the age to start introducing sex-lessons. Having said that, the sex-education you get in schools is a mess, mostly because of government and religious intervention.

You have to be prepared to be honest, forthright and all-embracing with the little darlings because they can and will ask the hard questions.

Don't forget, you might not like it but your son or daughter could grow up to be gay ... whatever you do, don't forget they're your child and no matter what their sexuality, you must love them every bit as much as the straight kid and teach them that what's normal is whatever is normal for them, no matter what other idiots think or say. We've seen enough tragedy in that particular sphere of sexuality.

As soon as you spot your child has started m*st*rb*ting ... that's the time to talk about where and when and "not in public, darling!" Explode the myths and introduce the concept of responsibility. Above all ... be honest and open. Otherwise you may come to regret it when your 12 year olds are responsible for a new life.















34

JG,

Fife 30/12/2007 10:31:29
We need to stop sexualising children. A 9 year old is not a sexual being - sure, they can buy clothes in the shops so they can look like whichever scantily clad group happens to be popular at the moment, but they don't have sexual inclinations. There does need to be more education in schools about it though - and the "abstinance" approach of the Catholic Church isn't going to work (grand concept though it is!). Get people who know what they are talking about into the secondary schools - tell the kids about contraceptives, STDs (grossly on the rise recently), tell them about how girls having sex at a too young age can raise the risks of contracting cancer and tell the boys about their parental responsibilities (and enforce these responsibilities should they father babies). And I wouldn't rely on the parents giving accurate information to their children - I remember what my parents told me - NOTHING!!!!
35

,

30/12/2007 10:32:13
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36

Boy Wonder,

30/12/2007 10:33:10
Apparently the full word of 'm*st*rb*ting"' is potentially unsuitable on the Hootsmon board. God greif ... what are we? 4 year olds??

I for one find this kind of Victorianism completely obj*ct*onable ... or could I have written that in full??
37

albanman,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 10:46:55
The much lauded "Healthy Respect" programme has been in Scottish PSE classes for almost 10 years - and has not made ANY appreciable difference to the sexual behaviour, pregnancy rate or numbers of abortions. PSE classes teach about contraception, STIs, condoms and a whole host of things - to little or no effect. At a recent workshop put on by the promoters of this programme I asked if there was any difference in the sexual behaviour of students from Catholic schools (which have a less 'in your face' approach)and non-denominational schools (in which I teach). After some moments of very clear embarrassment and mumbled comments, the final answer was "No"; thus, the very presenter of the programme admitted to its ineffectiveness.

In my PSE classes we speak a great deal about being respectful, waiting for the right time and person, as well as the practical stuff about sex; but why is this not working? I truly care for the well-being of my students, and believe they see that is the case; so why are the sessions 'wasted'? To me, the answer is alcohol; many of our school children drink on a worryingly frequent basis. All the preparation in the world regarding waiting/respect/condoms goes out the window once they have had some drinks. As for the number of drunken teens and adults on our streets....what a terrible example for our children.

Supposedly, our UK youngsters are the least happy in the E.U. in spite of being amongst the most finiancially affluent. Perhaps we should look to other E.U. nations which have different attitudes to alcohol, discipline and family life; their children are apparently happier. We need to find out why, and follow suit, because what we are doing in Scotland is not working.

As for introducing sex education to 5 year olds: what utter nonsense.
38

C.U. Jimmy,

30/12/2007 10:49:21
Must admit, if I'd known at 5 as much about sex as I know now, then life at primary school would have taken an entirely different direction... though I probably wouldn't have learned much about anything else.

Seriously folks, this insane government has an unstoppable (unless you vote them out) desire to take over responsibility for ( = to nationalise) childhood. Then it will use our kids to denounce the rest of us. Read '1984' by George Orwell for more. Happy New Year!
39

Gordon,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 10:53:02
Government policy on many things has affected the teenage desire to multiply.

From the introduction of discounted council house sales, we find that the only way to get offered one was to be pregnant - so this was the way to go for many girls who didn't want to stay around their parents. Now even these cannot be guaranteed housing, but once a trend starts...

The changes to tax laws, benefiting those who were taxed separately, and even those who live apart, encourage the demise of the "family unit".

Low pay and part-time work mean that parents either work excessive hours, or decide to stay at home where they are better off on benefits!!

The answer is NOT to give more sex education, but to change the taxation system, so that parents can afford to work (even in the lowest paid jobs) and still have time to spend with their offspring. (Being too rich and busy can be just as bad as too poor and lazy)
40

Capital C,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 10:54:43
Why is it that whenever anyone mentions sex education and children everyone panics?
Forth Valley NHS and the local councils have produced a fantastic resource for schools to introduce "sex" education in their primary schools "FEEL - THINK - DO".
The programme involves teaching kids to recognise feelings (fear, pleasure, uncertainty etc) the kids learn to take the time to think through these feelings before deciding what they should do.
Sounds very simple but in Scottish Education its trail blazing.
Stop worrying about a five year old knowing that their wee thing is called a penis and his sister's flower is her vag*na (they won't let me post the word!!!!!). They're only words and made taboo by our own "moral" outrage.
The Catholic Church (and any other religious organisation) should be barred from any discussions on education. They all get their chance to brainwash kids at sunday school!!
41

Kipling,

30/12/2007 11:05:26
Forget about the religious views on virginity. Virginity should be praised as a rewarding state (for health both physical & emotional) which should be kept until both sexes become of age, that is eligible to lose their life in the army, working and contributing to society (who will in turn give financial benefits when you're a mum or a dad). This is a practical view of the virtues of being a virgin. It would also teach the benefits of patience. To alter slightly a quote by the american author Barbara Johnson:

"Patience is the ability to idle your motor when you feel like stripping to your gears"
42

Edgar,

30/12/2007 11:15:48
41 says "The Catholic Church (and any other religious organisation) should be barred from any discussions on education. They all get their chance to brainwash kids at sunday school!!"

Among the groups that have been consistently cut out of this over the years is religious groups and specifically the catholic church. In other words the ones you want barred are the people definitely not responsible for the present situation. Yes, let's instead continue with the same failed philosophy, promoted by the same types that have brought upon us the present shambles.
43

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfropolis 30/12/2007 11:16:55
Hmmm did nobody else get the 'Peter and Penny' books back in the mid sixties, or was I the only one with pervy parents?

I knew all about human reproduction, front bottoms and spuunk monkeys at the age of six and didn't do me or my eleven children any harm...

Perhaps we should go for the chastity programme so popular in the USA where kids end up substituting penetration for ear sex...
44

Disgrunted Ebardonian,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 11:46:21
I total agree with #31 the kids don't need sex education at 5 years old as a child sex is not on your mind playing with toys and with there friends is all that there is on their minds we do not need some Grinch to come along and burst their bubble of innocence and awe.

HEY TEACHER LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE!
45

Kipling,

30/12/2007 11:47:46
#44. Your 2nd para. doesn't make sense. You had 11 children at the age of 6? Or should it have been age of sex?

3rd para. Tollyboy of England and La Ceinture de Chastete of America, who are the manufacturers of stainless steel chastity belts, are perhaps unaware that another market area to exploit exists. They could take a lead from the headgear worn by the soldiers of these islands in ancient times or even present-day security guards. Preferably those with a licence and clean record.
46

scottish person,

paisley 30/12/2007 11:58:39
Oh great not only will we have the most unmarried mothers in the world but the loony perv left are going to achieve the most unmarried mothers trophy. When are these sexual deviants going to be gagged. Real parents should put an end to this perversion. Think what you like about the catholic church but this will not happen in a catholic school.
47

Lex Luger,

Perth 30/12/2007 11:59:46
Childern have been and are continually being sexualised by the society in which we live, from the clothing they are encouraged to wear to the content on "kids" tv programes and everywhere else. I find it amazingly perverse that the solution being proposed to preventing more child pregnancies is to tell them all about it sex from an early age and then distribute contraceptives to these same kids without the knowlege of their parents. Did anyone see the Queen's Christmas message? She stressed the importance of the family units and family values, teaching sex education and self respect is the responsibility of PARENTS and should be taken care of at home by parents, it's a delicate matter not for the classroom where it is treated largely with contempt.
48

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 30/12/2007 12:03:36
#46 Dear Kipling, thank you for critique, in my haste to commit my wit to page I neglected to add the words 'this knowledge' between the words 'and' and 'didn't'. The word 'subsequent' although possibly superfluous in the context may have assisted those who thought I sired eleven offspring at the age of six.

Re the third paragraph, I imagine ear plugs would suffice from a contraceptive perspective yet also halt the possibility of prolonged and likely painful aural sex.
49

Gothic Rose,

30/12/2007 12:21:07
My daughter was around 4yrs old,when she made enquiries as to where babies came from.Take it from there.Or,you can always say, that they are found under a gooseberry bush.!!!
50

GrannieM,

30/12/2007 13:32:11
My opinion- teen pregnancy became rampant when sex ed was started being taught in schools. That was many years ago. Kids are curious, they wanted to see what it was about. And, if it is taught in school, it must be ok.
I believe parents are the ones to teach thier children, as they see them mature enough to handle it. During a discussion with my granddaughter when she was 16-17, I told her only one teen pregnancy during my 12 years of school, and what a scandal it was. She was amazed as in her school it was an every day occurance.
As to telling a five year old all the details, I cannot believe it was even suggested. At that age, my mum told me the doctor brought babies in his black doctors bag. I was happy with that. Television, movies are teaching our children the wrong attitude toward sex.
51

shivago8,

livingston 30/12/2007 13:53:40
Something must be seriously wrong with that man,s head suggesting that five year olds should start sex education.
We keep a lot of things from our kids and sex is one of them.
For anyone to suggest sex to 5 year olds is a starter that he has a sex hook up and he would be happy to see 5 year olds male and female talking openly about there bits and pieces but you cannot touch until you are 16.
The man is bonkers and should either be placed on an ASBO or locked up.
I know what I would do or tell him if I caught him near my grandchildren
52

Shamus,

Glasgow 30/12/2007 13:56:35
For adults to deny knowledge to children that could prevent disease and teenage pregnancy is a disgrace.The RC Church should have no say in the matter. Its just the nunbers game with them. The taxpayer has to pick up the tab in benefits for single mothers. The government has to act responsibly.
53

Calum Crubag,

30/12/2007 14:06:22
Pope Gordon - why should a doctor's views on sex education label him as left-wing? Do you know this guy?

I know of a school in Stirling where a Primary 2 girl (6 years old) got her first period. I think some of the auld blawhards here should listen to doctors and educationalists and find out what's happening. Children, due to environmental pollution (hormones in food etc) are becoming 'mature' earlier. Apparently the average age for girls first menstruation in Scotland in now P5. It's only fair that they know what's happening.

AS to children being sexualised. Ironically, Gordon, it seems as if it's right-wing papers and media that promote this the most. 'Dirty' Desmond's Daily Express empire also include numerous porn titles. Then there's Murdoch.

So, the churches think children of 5 are too young to be 'sexual'. Stop circumcision then and tell it to your priests.
54

Aleksi,

Aberdeen 30/12/2007 14:34:44
To me, five seems far too young - I believe perhaps, if we are to start early on this education, eight should suffice.

It is also a very strong belief of mine that sexual orientations need to be introduced at the same time as the rest sex education, provided adequate consent is given from each pupil's parent(s) to avoid any serious controversy.
I recieved as-good-as-no education into orientation throughout my entire time at school, and it wasn't until the last couple of months that I realised that the fact I did not desire sex, and felt no sexual attraction, was not because I was a 'freak' or somehow 'broken'; but because I was an asexual.
If anyone wants more information on asexuality - as it's something that's never taught and rarely heard of, please do visit www.asexuality.org.
55

drake's drum,

North Britain 30/12/2007 14:38:28
These poeople are off their trolleys.

As a primary teacher I know the subject of 'sex' doesn't even enter their heads until about age 10 or 11 (thankfully!) and even then in a very innocent way.
The problm is most of all caused by parents letting them watch the filth on Eastenders, Coronation Street etc., and adult movies in their own rooms, because that is where they get the ideas from, they DO NOT suddenly get the idea some day while playing with their WWE wrestlers and think, hey, let's get somebody up the duff!
For once, though it pains me to say it, the Catholic Church is absolutely right. Just with so-called 'drug education', you don't give a kid a loaded gun and then pretend to be surprised when they fire it.
Let's all grow up, act like adults, and treat children like children.
Read the Bible, it's got answers for most of our problems - all quite simple really!
56

Quiet John,

Tinley Park 30/12/2007 14:41:07
This seems all wrong. But perhaps five year olds learned as much when they worked on farms.
57

Kate Barr,

GLASGOW 30/12/2007 14:43:25
Why is it that the "ones on high" and those with all the power always seem to think they know what is best for us. When will it be that parents take the bull by the horns and stand up, use their intelligence and teach children that underage sex is wrong. We know that children are becoming bodily mature earlier these days, why are most parents afraid and too embarrassed to teach their kids about pregnancy, birth, childhood and growing to adulthood. Why do they let their embarrassment stop them from teaching their children the "facts of life" it is they who are responsible for imparting these facts to their offspring not teachers - who in most cases look about 15 years old and do not have any experience of life outside university and colleges where they learn teaching.

Perhaps if parents took their responsibilities more seriously their would be less unwanted pregnancies now. Discipline has been taken from teachers and parents and it seems as though it's the brain damaged and mentally ill who have taken over the asylum. If we don't waken up and use our brains to elect people who will do the correct thing for our futures we might as well give up and commit hari kiri !!!
58

Aleksi,

Aberdeen 30/12/2007 14:47:50
drake's drum: The thing is, these children already have the loaded gun, so to speak, and it's only a matter of time until the majority do what is their innate 'programming' and get curious about it.
The question is, do we tell them not to fire it, and risk having them do it anyway; tell them what could happen if they fire it, and then leave it up to them; or do we ignore the fact they have it and then act surprised when things happen?
59

Capital C,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 14:48:39
#58

Are you really a teacher? If so I hope it's not at my childrens school!!!

"Read the Bible, it's got answers for most of our problems - all quite simple really!"

Please please tell me your joking!

No-one outside the bible belt of America can possibly believe in the virgin birth, adam and eve and all the other fantastic nonsense borrowed from other ancient cultures and neatly compiled into a book by people who thought women second class citizens and homosexuality a crime.

Or can they????
60

Capital C,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 14:58:02
#51 and 56

Chairman Gordon,

What a friendly chap you are! Refering to me as chum when we've never met, how splendid, are you free for tea? After Mass of course!

I profess to being a little bemused by your logic. You assert that because a medical professional worked a council you deem ultra left wing then he must be a loony lefty!

I once worked in a shop where the owner was a Muslim does that mean I pray facing east?????
61

Capital C,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 15:09:15
#65

Gordon, have you considered the number of kids growing up who are being sexually abused. Such kids often believe that their abuse is "normal" as they don't have any other experience to compare it to.

Now imagine the kid being given the chance to get out of that life......

Too progressive for you?
62

,

30/12/2007 15:50:56
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63

CourtGolf,

Atlanta, GA 30/12/2007 16:05:45
THIS is the kind of moronic thinking that happens when academics and politicians are allowed to roam free. People who have never had a job in the public sector because they couldn't possibly handle the real world are constantly telling people how they should live their lives.

Maybe there is some way we can rekindle the Scottish spirit that stood up against English tyranny in the days of William Wallace - and couple that with the colonist spirit that did the same thing in the Revolutionary War - and turn it towards our own governments.

From the US Declaration of Independence: "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
64

Capital C,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 16:07:31
#67

Sadly it is very difficult to prevent it, but if a child knows that an adult (or an older child) shouldn't be touching them in a certain way or place then maybe we can help them put a stop to it?
65

Centurion2,

Glasgow 30/12/2007 16:22:54
Until promiscuity is recognized and emphasised as the primary cause of the spread of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease, there will be no improvement in the dreadful sexual health and abortion statistics in Scotland.

At the present time there are more contraceptive devices and "sexperts" than ever before ,yet the appalling statistics continue to rise.

The Scottish Executive's Sexual Health Strategy at no place in its preamble or text contained the words Promiscuity, Fidelity, Love nor Marriage and, until the authorities redress their laissez-faire attitude to sexual behaviour, their will never be an improvement in the sexual health of Scotland.
66

John1,

Stirling 30/12/2007 16:51:34
2: Spot on.
7: Plain wrong
18: Which religion advocatees pre-marital sex? There are a few, but not in the civilised world.
Your recommended approach ignores the devastating effect on lives of living only by basic instincts with no intelligence involved.

'Scotland's sexual health record is one of the poorest in the western world' says the article. And the solution is more of the same policy which has manifestly failed over the last 40 years? There are none so blind as those who will not see. When I was at school, MORALITY was assumed and advocated, and today's 'norm' of teenage sex barely existed. I am particularly disappointed that there is no mention of this in the reports of the Catholic Church's comments. And who are these "parents' groups" who give "cautious backing" to this ludicrous idea? If I still had children at school I would seriously consider taking them out to get them away from the hedonists who have taken the schools over and want to brainwash unformed minds.
67

Calum Crubag,

30/12/2007 16:56:17
Father Gordon - sounds like you're talking about right-wing 'libertarians'. Sounds like you are a true 'soldier of christ' if you think 'progress' is wrong. Certainly, an East German friend of mine did not get sex education at 5 in her Communist schooling.

Gordon, keep taking pills and fingering those rosaries.
68

Chris Yost,

Eau Claire, PA, USA 30/12/2007 17:05:11
At 5, a kid doesn't know was sex IS. Nor is he or she going to be able to understand what they're talking about. Parents should be jumping-ugly about this; not only is this something that they themselves should be teaching their kids but the schools should get their collective heads on straight.

Schools should provide contraception. Sure, makes perfect sense. Instead of teaching abstinence, which works every time it's tried, "well hell, we all know you're all just a bunch of little minxes. So here, take this condom and protect yourself."

So, the idea is to teach sex to kids who don't know what they're talking about, and to encourage promiscuity by handing out condoms to teenagers. Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.

But not to worry. For all of the 15-year-old new mothers out there, the government will just create a program to help them! And to pay for it, they'll just raise taxes. Makes me glad I'm here.

Oh, wait. That's going on here in a lot of places, too. Yoi.
69

,

30/12/2007 17:07:29
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70

,

30/12/2007 17:14:06
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71

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 17:17:08
That dreadful photo is totally inapproriate by the way...it smacks of 'The Sun' or some other quality bog roll....who thought up that idea?...get a photo of some kiddies holding hands and make it look like they are obviously doing the nasty....appalling !
72

Himself,

Aberdeen 30/12/2007 17:32:27
So if we are worst in the western world, and need to teach children about sex from the age of 5 onwards, at what age do countries with the best record start sex education?
73

Lanna,

30/12/2007 17:50:37
#77 Doreen,
hows yous? :) Agree with you at #5,6. As much as you think cutting off the funding would send a cold wake up, they would just resort to robbing.


#35 Howdy JG,
good comment. (any travels lately? :))

#25 Fife runner,
good comment
74

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 30/12/2007 17:52:15
Good afternoon to Charles Linskaill and Boy Wonder

I agree with what you both have to say and think it ridiculous that the moderator(s) will not allow the word "mast&&b$$e" on these forums. Are we living in the Victorian age or is some holier-than-thou killjoy maning or womaning the moderators' desk(s)?

I think the age of five is a BIT young to start sex education but age eight is about the age when children start to express their innate sexuality be it straight, gay, or otherwise.

If these children have the PROPER sex education done with professionalism and clarity and patient understanding perhaps Scotland AND some other countries will not have these explosions of STDs and young girls pregnant at 11 or 12 or 13.

But don't expect the male Catholic priests to be part of this sex educations because they are SUPPOSED to be celibate and what would they know about sexual urges - unless it applies to their unnatural affections for altar boys or "special friendships" between them.
75

scotsdoc,

NANAIMO BC Canada 30/12/2007 18:20:58


I think a lot of commentators here must have lived rather deprived lives.

I'm old at 77, yet sex is still the most important thing in my life as it has been virtually every day since I started enjoying it at around age 11.....although I was 'exploring' for a couple of years before, WITH NO HELP AT ALL FROM MY PARENTS SCHOOL OR ANYTHING ELSE EXCEPT MY OWN OBSERVATIONS.

Sex is the MOST IMPORTANT feature of human life!
Where is there a man who has forgotten the rapture of his first successful sexual conquest?

To avoid the dangers and pitfalls associated with sexual activity kids must be groomed and trained for it!
What Olympic athlete wins without training and skilled advice?
76

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 30/12/2007 19:35:38
81 scotsdoc, "To avoid the dangers and pitfalls associated with sexual activity kids must be groomed and trained for it!"
But NOT at 5years old!
Anyway I see we have been all 'very-good' girls and boys, on here today! NO comments removed, not even our BW's!

To reiterate my comment, the whole idea is,
'Nut's just 'Nut's'!!!
My two girls never had sex-education at 5years old, never got pregnant at 13years old and are,
'Happy as Larry' (so to speak) one married now and one in a steady relationship!
What does that tell you?
All it takes is reasonable parenting! and if my DYW has our Baby/Babies, it will be second time round for me, and I wont let any 'Jack-ass', tell me how to educate or bring up our Children!!
77

Young Pretender,

New Mexico USA 30/12/2007 19:52:01
I learned about AIDS in 1985 when it hit the news in the USA. I was nine. At age 10 schools here teach kids about their bodies, how they work, and what to expect over the next few years. (But not "how to.") When I mentioned this to a group of 15-30 year olds in Scotland they were horrified that I'd had sex education in school at all. Of course, they were most interested when I could clear up their wild misconceptions of how AIDS, STDs and Babies happen. For all you Scottish parents out there: your kids believe that AIDS is spread by toilet seats and that you won't get anything else unless a penis enters a v agina. Have you set them down to explain not only how these things happen but also what they do to a person and their symptoms?

Perhaps a standardized, graduated, sex ed curriculum that teaches kids about their bodies, social pressures, and what -exactly- can happen if they have sex isn't such a bad idea. At 5 schools should start with "girls & boys are different" since that's where kids are at anyway.
78

scotsdoc,

NANAIMO BC CANADA 30/12/2007 19:57:37

To 'Charles Linskaill,.Edinburgh' May I say arguing from the particular to the general is a commonly made mistake in science??

As for sex at the age of five....I had the living daylights knocked out of me at age about 4, when my father caught me playing with my 'twinkie'( if direct words are not permitted) in the bath. I didn't know what the beating was about....but I did know it had something to do with TWINKIES!!!

AND FROM THAT DAY ON I NEVER TRUSTED MY FATHER!!!
79

Sambo,

The deep south 30/12/2007 20:06:55
I have noticed in my time, a two year old girl humping my leg such as a dog in heat would do. I guess this is nature kicking in even at such a tender age.
I suppose the only recourse would be a strong family upbringing to guide a child in the right direction until that child is old enough to constrain the adolescence and "raging testosterone" tendencies. Unfortunately, a lot of juveniles are "set loose" to find their own way, resulting in unwanted pregnancies and eventually abortions, which will, as time goes by will destroy a woman's conscience.
80

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 30/12/2007 20:30:16
84 scotsdoc, obviously you father had some physiological problem, all children in the very early years will discover the part of their body that,
'Has-a-funny-feeling' when they start touching it or rubbing it, this behaviour may go on for a short while, some children may tell, mummy or/and Daddy about it, some may not!
NO big fuss should be made by the parents and the child that doesn't talk about it, should be left alone to discover their 'new-found-parts', its NOT rocket science, to give your child, 'their space' and wont make them some kinda 'sexual-retard' in years to come and certainly will not make a 13year old become a parent!
81

Aleksi,

Aberdeen 30/12/2007 20:32:51
scotsdoc: We don't all want sex in our lives, you know.
So do stop making such silly assumptions with regard to 'training' boys and girls at age five to have sex.
82

Eve,

Scotland 30/12/2007 20:45:12
#3 Dr. James Wilkie: You point is totally valid and makes a lot more sense than this Dr Charles Saunders point, While I believe sex education should be better than it's at present. I don't see the point of teaching a 5year old about it, there just so young.

I remember having a talk about periods in my last year of Primary and 1st & last year of Secondary school. The first 2 talks was before I had started so I wasn't really listing (day dreaming through most of it because the talks didn't seem to apply to me)and all I learnt was if you put a tampon in a cup of water it expands(I found that really amusing). By the last talk I had periods and a learnt a lot more about them and had a a greater underactuation of them, which still remember to this day.

I think the same is true with sex talks if your NOT ready for something and you feel the subject doesnae apply to you then you just don't take the information in.

The real nac is getting the students to realise that the information applies to them.

I believe the best way forward is to assess each child individually with special attention to the child's emotional maturity, how far on they might be in puberty (if they have started, everyone delvepops at different times and ages), there age, who there friends are, what subjects the regularly talk to their peers about (if it's Barbie or my little ponies or similar, then the chances are they won't be one bit interested in the sex education BUT if they like to talk about the opposite sex then perhaps the sex education would be valuable)
83

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 30/12/2007 20:50:54
Good post!,~88 Eve.
84

Sambo,

The deep south 30/12/2007 21:01:57
#88 Eve,
I remember at school, we were aged 11, a girl in our class started bleeding and we all cried, we thought she was injured.
So much for sex education in the 50's.
85

Kipling,

30/12/2007 21:20:48
I thought the ScotsmanonSunday pages were empty this morning. You were all on this page.

#85 & #90, Sambo, if that's not a fakey. You have a problem. A two year old girl doesn't "hump" like a dog on heat. You sound like a paedophile and YOU NEED TREATMENT! The idea that little girls are flirty or trying to make a come on to grown up men (if that's what you are and not a juvenile being silly) is what motivates adult men to rape them.
86

Sambo,

The deep south 30/12/2007 21:36:06
#91 Kipling,
Sorry Kipling, I'm not a paedophile, I'm only telling about my life experiences. The little girl was having a sexual thing. I'm a father of four children, I am only expressing what I have encountered.
Children encounter sexual feelings at young ages, they are confused about these feelings and need the guidance of parents.
Sorry Kipling, I don't need treatment.
I'm a combat veteran of the United States Army, I've seen men die and probably seen more of life than your narrow mind.
I don't need treatment, you might need treatment to broaden yor mind to what is really important.
87

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 21:37:59
79....Allright Lanna?...sorry didnt get back to you yet but nice photo of you and that stallion by the way...any word from AJ?..he must be staring the facts of life in the face by now..and changing its nappy!

And nice to see JG's still around...giving the old forum a sensible injection form time to time......

Crap format here by the way....
88

Eve,

Scotland 30/12/2007 21:56:18
#90 Sambo: What sweet 11 year old you had back then.

No one can right the wrongs of the the 1950's education systems, just like no one can right the wrongs of santiry wear of the 1950's (I hear it was quite doggies still in those days).

BUT you can chance the future, and make sure the wee ones have a wee bit of an understanding. Though 5 is a wee bit to young, may be 8 would be better. If they have no interest in the subject they won't pay much attention to it as it doesn't apply to them. You have to make sex education should be made revent and be presented in a style which suitable for the audiences.

As an 1980's child I don't know much about the 1950's except that pupils got the belt if they did the slitist thing wrong.

I can tell you in the 1990's the 11year old weren't really as sweet as that, my peers would have properly laughed if that had happened.



89

Catharine,

winnipeg 30/12/2007 21:56:51
Where in the article did Dr Saunders say he wanted to teach 5 year olds how to have sex? Are most of you too morally rigid and childishly priggish to understand that sex education is a form of HEALTH education? Those of you who say you hadn't explored your own body, and that of your siblings/parents by that age are lying or grew up in a dark cave with your hands and eyes constantly bound. Human beings are sexual creatures - from the moment they are born. That doesn't mean that infants, toddlers, children, adolescents should be having sex, but confusing intercourse with sexuality is a particularly infantile reaction. Sexual health can help keep kids from harm - never mind pregnancy or STDs, how about understanding their own bodies and learning what kind of touching is appropriate or inappropriate? Is that too much knowledge for a 5 year old? Dave from Barra has it right - in the ideal world, families should be teaching this, but this is not an ideal world. There are still morons out there who would beat their child for "twinkie" tickling. There are parents who don't have the skills to teach their children what they need to know. Religions teach their own twisted "realities" so perhaps a national curriculum in schools is a better option.

90

Sambo,

The deep south 30/12/2007 22:17:27
#94 Eve,
Ah Eve, these were the days of innocence, or should I say naivetivity?
Life in the fifties was a lot more uncomplicated.
I think we were more empowered back then with virtual values than today's youth.
Of course we didn't have the influences of TV and movies that the modern youth are experiencing.
A youngster growing up nowadays really has to have a strong character to survive.
Parents have to be there.
91

Sambo,

The deep south 30/12/2007 22:45:10
#97 The spook,
I'm not sure I would be bragging about you being on top, especially if it's new to you?
92

JG,

Fife 30/12/2007 22:53:23
#79 Lanna
Hi, y'all! How are things with you? I see they managed to put out those wildfires eventually.

Hi Doreen - wasn't too impressed by the new layout either. Haven't seen you on here for a while. I've been doing a wee OU course, so that's been keeping me busy. I did have a wee "exchange" with that Pax joker the other night but got bored with his ravings and gave up! It was just a bit of sport!!

If anyone is going to tell these children anything about sex, it should be someone who knows what they are talking about - and 5 is far too young. If a 5 year old asks a question tell them the truth but it all has to be governed by their age. The teacher further back made a few good points. And keep religion out of it!
93

Kipling,

30/12/2007 23:05:40
#92. Sambo fakey. Let's hope it wasn't one of your children. Most abused kids are abused by their parents, regardless of whether they are fakey military or pacifist. Sorry but a little girl of two does not have sexual feelings. All kiddies have enormous pleasure from physical things, like playing with their toes, private parts, running around, etc. They're discovering their bodies and what they can do with them. You're projecting your understanding of a more mature development of the body & its sensations onto a baby. How do you know what this little girl felt if you didn't ask leading questions, possibly pervertedly putting ideas in her head. Sorry, mate, you need therapy. And I would be concerned about you as a parent with the perceptions you have of toddlers' bodily pleasures.
94

Kipling,

30/12/2007 23:08:34
All the Scotsman has to do to bring out the 'grooming' crowd is to run such a story. Yuk.
95

Stewie,

Oz 30/12/2007 23:09:03
I totally agree with Dr Wilkie, 5 is far to young to begin sex education. They don't have the cognitive skill levels at that age, 10 might be getting closer. As someone who has done tertiary studies in child development and also social work. Believe me, this would only pander to the paedophile swine who think in their twisted heads that children want to do it. I know about this I worked with those low-lifes in corrections. Let children be children, and get rid of this moron who suggested this!Or maybe someone should look at why a grown man would suggest this abomination!
96

Sambo,

The deep south 30/12/2007 23:21:07
#92 Kipling,
Don't know what the "fakey" means.
I don't have a problem, I'm not a child psychologist either, I'm just a good father, I don't need therapy, I'm just telling you what I experienced.
If you want to stick darts in me for my statements, that's OK.
I have four children, all are grown and are very successful.
Might I ask what are your credentials to be be such an experienced professional on child development?
97

jerrymanders,

30/12/2007 23:22:39
Go to most third world countries, and sex and child bearing, is common before the teens. Child brides? One century ago. We need to wake up. Kids are having sex at ages we cannot believe. Or don't want to. Go speak to a nurse or doctor.
98

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 23:22:44
97...Shut up yersell...too much gruesome information Spook old bean...

99...Hi JG...been hermitising myself sunshine..quite getting used to it anall...auld pox is still on the go eh?...thought I caught a whiff of a troll hereabouts...thirs jist nae firgittin that stench now is there?...nice to see you are still around JG...any hols lined up?

99

Sambo,

The deep south 30/12/2007 23:29:14
#100 When you say a little girl doesn't know, I disagree, When you utter the word yuk! I wonder about you.
By the way if you are talking about the word fakey, there is nothing fake about me.
100

,

30/12/2007 23:36:35
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101

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 30/12/2007 23:44:23
102 Stewie, Totally agree with you comment!, it strikes me as being a 'bit weird' for someone to suggest 5year olds, should be taught sex education!
My wife is doing an advanced childcare course, to which I help her with, this covers 'new-borns' to 15year olds, this suggestion about 5year olds having sex education, is a total, 'NO-NO'!, for this age group, for one what you say about,
"cognitive skill levels", is 100% correct!
"Let children be children," I agree!
102

Kipling,

30/12/2007 23:47:45
#103. My credentials are good enough & fakey means you're probably not authentic. Your expression "humping" is sufficient to make me question your projections. A small female toddler would not be sufficiently developed for such activity. You then go on to say "until that child is old enough to constrain the adolescence and 'raging testosterone' tendencies." Err, isn't there some logical deficiency here? An adolescent is not a child and the adolescent doesn't tend to constrain it nowadays, he/she just lets rip. The perception again that you have of a burgeoning sexuality of pre-pubertal child smacks of justification to 'firmly' deal with something as a father. I get the vision of you as someone who gets their kicks from smacking naked bottoms.

Sure, there have been early marriages, particularly in hot countries where girls mature earlier (or at any rate used to, the colder countries having caught up). But having an arranged marriage at 2yrs old doesn't mean you have the desire to f*rn*c*te or pleasure yourself at that age.

In any event, better to be amongst the gnats than the groomers at this end of the evening. Nighty night.
103

Sambo,

Te deep south 30/12/2007 23:52:50
# 110,Kipling.
Nighty night says it all.
104

Kipling,

31/12/2007 00:06:36
I thought it was your language, Sambo. Seems i was right, nighty night.
105

Eel Larvae,

Toronto 31/12/2007 00:29:03
I think you would be better off teaching them basis bicycle repair techniques. Can it be the nutters who came up with this were never children? Scary!
106

Aleksi,

Aberdeen 31/12/2007 00:45:48
#107 scotsdoc: I realise that I am wasting my time refuting your statements, however, I shall nonetheless.
I do not believe I, nor anyone else, made any statement regarding the forbidding of sex; the refusal of its pleasure to others. Why, therefore, you see a need to infer this to my statement is entirely beyond me.
(Also, one must be Christian to join a monastery - I am an atheist, though naturally I do not expect you to have known that.)

Allow me to explain my objections to your original comment, as it does seem I did not do so nearly clearly enough, and for that I apologise.
Not everyone in this world likes, or desires, sex - this is natural in many people in this situation, and not the result of some illness or hormonal disorder. Therefore, it would be highly inappropriate to indoctrinate - for that is, in simple terms, what you were proposing - children who have only just entered school to enjoy sex. It would be on exactly the same level as an attempt to educate homosexual people to be heterosexual, and, I do not believe I need to remind you that, in modern society, doing so is wrong.
The majority of people have plenty of chances to discover and experiment with sex in order to gain the most pleasure from the experience - if what you said previously is true, you are a perfect example of this. Why then, pray tell, must we 'train' children to do this? Not to mention the undeniable fact that everyone is an individual, and that what is best for one is not necessarily the best for someone else.

Finally, I shall repeat what I stated at the start of this message - I do not want to stop people having or enjoying sex.
107

Hickory,

US 31/12/2007 01:53:21
Hoot man, this crackpot should be taped up across the mouth. He wants to show them where to put it before they even desire to put it there. Aye, Jimmy, this nut is bad for us all... over there and over here.
108

roboypg4,

Vancouver 31/12/2007 02:49:11
Teaching five yr olds about sex is BONKERS...We need to be getting shot of the crap we are watching on the The Big and Small screen....We live in a very Sick society that allows a ton of perversion... I bet most of us dont know what the heck our Children are doining on the computer.
109

Stephen T.,

31/12/2007 02:55:20
Great news for pediaphiles! Great news for child pono promoters and users! Think of the possibilities for these people to legally liaison with our children! We already have lobbying for dropping the age for consentual sex. The question is "How low can you go?" - not in reference in age, but rather in morals, human dignity and plain old human decency. Have we all gone mad? ... or just plain stupid? We have gotten so used to numbing our sense of wrong-doing, that we no longer have any clue of what self-respect is.
Poor children! Poor Scotland!
110

Tomdonald,

31/12/2007 06:19:09
Here we go again !!!! Sex, the word in the headlines that is, sells newspapers, Johnsons have been in the business a long time.

To be fair to the Doc as he sees it the earlier you start teaching about babies and where they come from the more likely they might realise when puberty strikes what remarkable people they have become in being able to have an offspring just like themselves! The point that it requires a mate of the other gender is the crux of the matter.

Some facts first. Man is a mammal. We are of the species homo sapiens, which has been around for about 15K years. It is important to realise that Archbishop Usher calculated that the Creation/Genesis 1.1 was in 4004 BC and the 10 Commandments dealing with adultery about 1500 BC. The Jews are almost certainly one of the first monotheistic religions.

Jung and more recently the Myers Sisters (1930) worked on personality. The most important criterion is “orientation” – is the individual an extrovert (E) or an introvert (I)? An extrovert acts first then thinks whilst an introvert thinks first then acts.

It follows that a male introvert is more unlikely to father a single parent family, simply because the species requires the mother to bear and feed the child, while the father sustains his family by providing the food as a farmer or hunter.

To state the obvious, two virgins will produce a child without any sex education. Pre-war male university students were well known to go “tom-catting” with the necessary protection always being available in their wallet should a willing “mate” be encountered!

I will leave it to others to speculate on the likely outcome of the 4 possible couplings – II, IE, EI, EE.

Sex education is best left to parents when puberty strikes their offspring. Unfortunately the signs in males may not become obvious to parents before experimentation with the “apparatus” produces a child.

‘Nuff said!!!!









111

james 1st,

hamilton 31/12/2007 06:43:33
why not start at two. seems to me that the earlier you start teaching sex the earlier children want to expiriment.
i dont know about the uk but here in nz a young woman with few prospects can get preganant and start a well paid career without nany formal training. i suspect it is the same in the uk, so i am not surprised that teenage pregnancy is so prevelant
112

Bad Science,

Pueblo 31/12/2007 07:16:20
#44 OscarMacApfel

Tell me what are you saying that children do in the USA?

"Perhaps we should go for the chastity programme so popular in the USA where kids end up substituting penetration for ear sex..."

You sure think highly of yourself, but I think your a racist that thinks kids in other countries are apes. Of course being a racist, that is not unheard of.

I can tell you are very manerly.
113

Bad Science,

Pueblo 31/12/2007 07:33:42
I think it is obvious that a couple of the comments on here was from pedophiles, and that it is obviously where such discussion of private matters with little children will lead to.

How many parents have made the mistake in the past of making their little sons confess to a priest only to find out many painful years later said discussion of such private matters in private conversation unattended by the parents has often led to rape of chidren even in trusted hands in the church.

Thus, sex is and always will be illicited by a more mature audience. But when it comes to little children the unruley will be first to insist on sexually educating the innocent.
114

AnneJ,

OLDHAM 31/12/2007 07:53:51
WE HAVE HAD THIS IN SCHOOLS FOR SOME YEARS =
Now we have the highest rate of single mothers who get pregnant, £1000 for furnishings for their free flats, and they can't wait to get pregnant again!!!
SOME EDUCATION!!! IT'S A DISGRACE!
115

JG,

Fife 31/12/2007 09:16:08
#105 Doreen
I don't have anthing lined up yet - probably be back in Portugal though and maybe the US. You? I spotted AJ on one of the political threads a few weeks ago but I'm not really into politics so (apart from saying hi to him!) I moved swiftly on! I'm not really big on religion either but I like a good argument and to wind up people like pax pox. Nice to see you back in the land of the living and look forward to reading tour incisive comments!
116

JoshuasGrandma,

Edinburgh 31/12/2007 12:39:25
After a 40 year career as a health and sexuality educator and mother of three, I never cease to be amazed at people's appalling ignorance of human sexuality. Yes, Virginia, young children do have sexual feelings and early on discover that their genitals feel good when rubbed. They can learn and understand information about body parts, what they are properly called and their function. My three year old son once corrected his grandfather who said 'Your mommy has a baby in her tummy.' No, he said it's in her uterus!
Learning about sexuality is a continual process from birth to old age, and repressive cultures, mostly due to religion, have done the greatest damage. Being able to talk openly about sexual feelings, how to manage them and deal with them appropriately is the best gift parents can give their children and would save much pain and disrupted lives. Parents and schools should be working together to help our children learn openly about this most important aspect of their lives.
117

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 31/12/2007 14:04:31
Sounds a bit Paedo to me???
118

Theo,

Richmond 31/12/2007 17:13:38
The biggest problem lies with the parents who are to embarrassed to talk about sex, sex education and the like with their children. They try to cover their problem up by condemning sex ed programs because of the fear of "the questions" from their children to them the parents. Kids at 5 can assemble many things and I feel they will accept proper sex ed just along with math, spelling and the like. Again how many parants can openly discuss sex ed. with their children? Can you and be honest with yourself. If you find you can not freely talk of these things then you are part of the problem. Let the educated in school handle this and be damn glad there are those willing to help protect the child. This is also an opportunity to discuss sexual abuse and what can/could happen.
Parents you do not protect your child by keeping them ignorant of these important issues. Grow up because your children will!!!
119

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 31/12/2007 17:32:16
123...Hi JG..Portugal again eh?...dont go to Villamoura..its boring!...unless you like golf that is....what part of the US..I'd love to go to NY but as a non flyer might be a bit difficult.... Aye there's a few belters around..couple of them on the boys and toy guns story...fondling their weapons..suppose its a bit like the invisible guitar scenario...anyroad..I'l give auld AJ a jolt, see if AJ junior has appeared yet...or mibbe I should wait until he's ready to face the world...mmmh we'l see...no hols for me, just back from Glasgow and still reeling from the festive campness that passes as a religious event..need to go for a walk in the woods to detox and rid myself of all that hedonistic debauchery thats clinging to me like a winter fog...can still hear the *tching* of the tills.......aaaargh!

Emotive subject this, and a difficult one...remember my da sat me down when I was around 14 and after much harumphing and clearing of throat I had the horrible realisation that he was about to tell me all about the birds and the bees...a swift "Its allright da I've already been clued in at school"...saved us both a red face and avoidance of eye contact....
120

JG,

Fife 31/12/2007 19:11:30
#127 Doreen
You're right - parents just don't like the idea of talking about sex to their children. Mine never even tried - you should have seen the look of relief on my mum's face when she saw the leaflet I'd been given at the school! Shame this thread had to wait unil #124 and #126 before anyone started talking sense, don't you think?

I'll be visiting a friend in Portugal who doesn't live anywhere near Villamoura! I don't play golf - though I was a dab hand at the putting at Burntisland when I was wee, let me tell you! I also visit a friend who lives in the American south and over the years have travelled from the Grand Canyon to South Carolina. There are some lovely areas that don't take you anywhere near Disney! It will certainly be a problem for you if don't fly - I'm not keen myself but force myself from time to time. I didn't know AJ was going to be a daddy - he'll maybe be doing middle of the night contributions here to fit in with the baby's feeding!
121

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 31/12/2007 21:58:31
Have a great holiday anyway when it happens JG, and a belter of a 2008!

I'm currently bloated here with home made sushi, chocolate cake and champagne....need to kick back and groan for a bit...till tomorrow anyroad!

Yip...I'l send AJ a wee email tomorrow and see if he comes out into the open......

Best wishes.....
122

Teri B.,

01/01/2008 00:29:45
Ok, im 12. And I dont think that is a good idea.
Teaching a child at 5 about sexual intercourse is a thought, but its not a good one. Giving them sex lessons at age 5, can lead to a situation that is very serious.
If you want to teach your child at that age, go ahead. I will not give lesson on sex to mi 5 year.Most kids under the age 14 are imature about these things. Theres a possibility, high risk chance they might lose their inescence before 16. or something else, like a STD.
123

geraldo91,

01/01/2008 03:29:26
#124: You talk absolute sense.
I also agree with someone else that religion plays an enormous cause of the sexual disinformation the world is in. While I cannot produce statistics to back up my belief, I feel that a large part of the fear of early sex education is the myth, strongly backed up by religionists but refuted by every sex educator in the entire world, that if homosexuality is explained to kids,they will automatically become homosexuals as if by magic. That's why they demonise Darwin; Homosexuals have existed throughout the history of civilisation, and a gay gene has even been isolated in the fruitfly, drosophila,which existed before civilisation began.It is thought that since homosexuals do not mostly procreate, the continuity is partly based on a gene concerning the mother's fertility: Studies show that the more sons a mother has, the greater her chance that her youngest will be homosexual. I'm not saying kids of 5 need to be educated about Darwin etc, but the religionists want no part of scientific sex education--ever-- mostly because it explains and therefore condones homosexuality.
124

Kate Barr,

GLASGOW 01/01/2008 11:15:35
Ref #124 Joshua's Grandma, I wouldn't be raving about being a Health & Sexuality Educator here not at the moment anyway, if I were you! By the way - do you mean you were a Sex Education Teacher ?
Although no doubt you thought it was clever of your son to correct his Grandpa - and I can see how it could have sounded funny at the time, however thereby hangs a tale and that little comment says a lot.
It's OK to be clever and intelligent, but there was something lacking in that incident i.e. respect and discipline, that, Joshua's Grandma was one of the things that started us on the road we are on where the "kids are running the Asylum! You would probably disagree thinking that you family etc will make something of themselves and a success of their lives - mind you, having a parent who was or is a Health & Sexuality Educator they probably will make a great success of their lives. It could be feasible that they could be running (the country/asylum) whatever...
I believe it is a very difficult job to bring up children and it is very easy to make as ass of it, and I have a funny feeling that luck also plays a part in it - I certainly would not hold up my son, correcting his Grandpa in the ways of Sex and Pregnancy as being something good or worthy of comment.
Ref #126 Theo you speak a lot of sense and I think you're right about embarrassment and if parents can't bring themselves to answer their kids questions about sex - giving answers within the child's understanding then we must let the teachers do it, in that I do agree with Joshua's Grandma - parents and school should be working together, provided the teachers can do it properly, why not? It makes no sense to shut our eyes and ears and say Oh no ! we can't have little John or Janey hear about things like that they have feelings before they are 5 and are asking questions before that, let's not fool ourselves.
As for the people who say that's terrible they will be experimenting and all that rubbish - For Heaven
125

Kate Barr,

GLASGOW 01/01/2008 11:18:09
Ref #124 Joshua's Grandma, I wouldn't be raving about being a Health & Sexuality Educator here not at the moment anyway, if I were you! By the way - do you mean you were a Sex Education Teacher ?
Although no doubt you thought it was clever of your son to correct his Grandpa - and I can see how it could have sounded funny at the time, however thereby hangs a tale and that little comment says a lot.
It's OK to be clever and intelligent, but there was something lacking in that incident i.e. respect and discipline, that, Joshua's Grandma was one of the things that started us on the road we are on where the "kids are running the Asylum! You would probably disagree thinking that you family etc will make something of themselves and a success of their lives - mind you, having a parent who was or is a Health & Sexuality Educator they probably will make a great success of their lives. It could be feasible that they could be running (the country/asylum) whatever...
I believe it is a very difficult job to bring up children and it is very easy to make as ass of it, and I have a funny feeling that luck also plays a part in it - I certainly would not hold up my son, correcting his Grandpa in the ways of Sex and Pregnancy as being something good or worthy of comment.
Ref #126 Theo you speak a lot of sense and I think you're right about embarrassment and if parents can't bring themselves to answer their kids questions about sex - giving answers within the child's understanding then we must let the teachers do it, in that I do agree with Joshua's Grandma - parents and school should be working together, provided the teachers can do it properly, why not? It makes no sense to shut our eyes and ears and say Oh no ! we can't have little John or Janey hear about things like that they have feelings before they are 5 and are asking questions before that, let's not fool ourselves.
As for the people who say that's terrible they will be experimenting and all that rubbish - For Heaven
126

Kate Barr,

GLASGOW 01/01/2008 11:20:21
The end of my post did not come out -- For Heavens sake do they think that Homosexuals were brought up Gay - by Gay parents..... Know what I mean?
127

Laurette,

Southern California 01/01/2008 18:16:55
You're right - parents just don't like the idea of talking about sex to their children. Mine never even tried.

Actually, my mum told me 51 years ago on my wedding day that "certain things" happened on my honeymoon. That was the extent that sex was ever discussed. I'm glad to say that things have certainly changed, but I think 9 would be much more appropriate than 5.
128

Venango,

northwestern Pennsylvania 02/01/2008 22:22:03
Sex education belongs in the home. Taught by parents when they know when the time is right as every child is different (when it comes to curiosity.)
Also need to teach that sex only belongs in a MARRIAGE. This would bring down out of wedlock births and disease that comes from having multiple partners.
129

Nick W.,

USA 02/01/2008 22:48:20
Look people. Take it from someone who's been there. I have had sex, and im younger than 18. look, I did personal research on the subject and im glad I did. I used protection and I deem it as necessary. I like the idea of schools instituting sex ed at around the early years. I commend the doctor for his reasoning which you may not fully understand. Children are most impressionable between the ages of 2 and 9. If one were to teach a 5 year old a good basis of sex ed, then progress to a more advanced understanding, by age 13 when they hand out contraceptives, they can make a good decision as to weather the time is right or not. By doing nothing, the figures of STDs and teenage pregnancy will continue to rise. Look at the way new STDs have spread so they are super common: HIV, herpes, chlamydia and then look at figures for the cases ten years ago. it is sharply lower. I know many will read this and think im a nut case or an irresponsible kid or someone who knows nothing or very little. But really, in knowing very little about something, sex for example, a teenager is better off knowing a little bit than the same teen knowing nothing at all.
130

LauraKnowsBest,

harrogate 17/05/2008 12:32:17
Ok, I left school a year ago. And i dont remember having ANY sex education whatsoever apart from a bit in primary school and 3 days learning of which all we had to do was shout rude words out and the teacher would do her best to tell us what they meant. I left school not knowing what the morning after pill was and most of my friends had never heard of it either. I went with my friend to have an abortion. She had just turned 16 and was heartbroken, she didnt know what to do for the best. she couldnt tell any of the teachers as they had never discussed it with her. I live in a pretty posh area and its quite suprising how many teens you see pushing a pram. We dont want this for ourselves. People say its our fault but if they were just given the right education. Its not 5 year olds who need this education! You hear about rumours right from year 7 about she 'he slept with her, she did that with him...' and most of it is just rumours, but that means they are thinking of sex. Thats the time they NEED education. Also, as well as teaching them about what could go wrong and the consequences, explain what to do if they ever find themselves in a tricky situation. Like my friend, and so many other CHILDREN who find themselves pregnant, and have no-one to go to. Because thats all they are, children, they still need there mums and dads. I went to the doctors and found out about contraception etc myself, but im quite confident in asking those things as i have been brought up to talk openly. Its those teens that are still in school and not going to have any form of sex education until they pluck up the courage to go to the doctors or ask someone. Which may never come. So please someone do something about this! Its ruins a childhood!

 

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