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'Sectarian jokes' put QC's job on the line

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Published Date: 14 January 2007
THE surroundings were almost as familiar as the wood-panelled walls of the High Court.
Before Donald Findlay QC were 140 passionate Rangers supporters from the Loyalist stronghold of Larne, Northern Ireland, and at his side were two Rangers legends, Willie Henderson and Andy Goram.

Like the former Rangers director, they had been booked to entertain the revellers, who had paid £22 each for the privilege of hearing their tales in April 2005. The hazy atmosphere, allied to the death of Pope John Paul II a week or so earlier, inspired one of Findlay's jokes. "It's very smoky in here," he was reported to have said. "Has another f***ing Pope died?"

There was reportedly an unprintable joke about a nun but, as Findlay's supporters point out, the Rev Ian Paisley was also a target for his humour that night.

Regardless, the allegedly anti-Catholic jokes were made public, and Findlay was again at the centre of media attention. The Faculty of Advocates, a body that does not encourage its members to court publicity, was distinctly unamused.

Eight months earlier, in August 2004, American journalist Franklin Foer published his book, How Soccer Explains The World - An Unlikely Theory Of Globalisation. Foer visited Scotland during his research, taking in an Old Firm game at Ibrox and meeting Findlay afterwards.

Foer writes that Findlay expressed regret he had not been more bullish in his own defence over the notorious sectarian songs incident in 1999. Findlay was fined £3,500 by the Faculty of Advocates and resigned as Rangers chairman after he was caught on video singing sectarian songs with supporters following a victory over Celtic.

Foer reported Findlay as saying that a suitable test for British citizenship could be: "If a troop carrying the Queen's colours doesn't bring tears to your eyes, then f*** off!"

Foer says Findlay posed a series of provocative rhetorical questions. "Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?" he is reported to have asked. "Why can't you be forgiven for thinking that confessing to a priest who is confessing to God is ridiculous and offensive? Or that the Pope is a man of perdition?" he is said to have added.

It remains unclear what action, if any, the Faculty of Advocates took in the immediate aftermath of these reported comments. Two months after the Larne episode, Findlay resigned his post as chair of Faculty Services Ltd, the private company that looks after the business affairs of advocates. Precisely why he stood down remains a mystery.

However, independent of each other, two Scots made complaints to the Faculty. Tom Minogue, a retired Fife businessman, alleged Findlay's conduct in Larne and comments in Foer's book were not compatible with his role as a QC. Hugh Lynch, from Larbert, who retired in 1997 as rector of St Mungo's RC High School in Falkirk and had served as an assistant director of education, was also appalled by reports he read of the Larne incident.

The Dean of the Faculty, Roy Martin QC, and the body's complaints committee, agreed he was guilty of professional misconduct. It is understood Findlay was given the option of "putting his hands up" and paying a relatively modest fine.

Findlay, who is nothing if not a fighter, flatly refused and now faces prosecution at a formal disciplinary tribunal, which has the power effectively to finish his career.

Minogue was not available for comment, but Lynch said last night: "Sectarianism has to be wiped out in Scotland. Jack McConnell has described it as Scotland's shame and I do believe the Executive wants to bury that shame.

"He [Findlay] claims he has a right to free speech and is not a bigot, but by his own actions he condemns himself. What sort of role model does he provide for young lawyers or young Rangers fans? He should not be allowed to continue to bring an august body like the Faculty into disrepute."

Minogue petitioned the Scottish Executive in 2005 over Findlay's alleged conduct, claiming it was wrong for the QC to receive Legal Aid money.

Minogue claimed the public had the right to expect a Scottish advocate, particularly a QC, to behave in a "dignified and appropriate" manner in public, particularly outside Scotland.

Findlay responded at the time: "I have appeared and spoken at Celtic supporters' dinners, including one chaired by the local priest. I really don't want to say too much about this, other than that we are all actors.

"We play to the audience that we have. I often tell stories about my childhood, and every word is a lie, designed to entertain. The things I say at a sportsman's dinner should not be taken as the gospel according to Donald Findlay. I am playing a role.

"I do not accept the charge that I am racist or a bigot and I fear that Tom Minogue in due course will have to hear from my solicitors."

Highs and lows


Donald Findlay was born on March 17, 1951, in Cowdenbeath in Fife. He was educated at Harris Academy in Dundee, and at Dundee and Glasgow universities.

He became an advocate in 1975 and then was made a QC in 1988. He earns more criminal legal aid cash than any other Scottish advocate, making £300,000 a year.

Findlay has been a strong supporter of the Conservative Party and famously led the Think Twice campaign against Scottish devolution in 1997.

He has served as a defence lawyer in dozens of high-profile murder trials, including some of Scotland's most famous cases of recent years, such as that of Luke Mitchell, convicted of killing Jodi Jones in 2005.

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1

scottwebb.co.uk,

14/01/2007 00:18:16

Again :)

2

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 14/01/2007 00:43:04

But .. Findlay said plenty about it at that party, and to the BBC in his bubbling interview ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/476302.stm so why the silence now ?

Consistency certainly isn't something to expect from the legal profession - other than deny deny deny .. and let's get our lads off the hook .. unless of course their face doesn't fit (a rare occasion indeed, but Raj Jandoo's case is a good example).

I've seen Advocates & lawyers get up to a lot worse than this .. the likes of which I cannot write about on the Scotsman forums ... but I'm sure, ultimately, Findlay will only get a slap on the wrist, if anything at all, on this one .. with his colleagues sitting in judgement on himn unless there is an irresistible urge to 'do as we say, not as we do' ..

Honestly, I've forgotten most of how the video went, other than the chants ... any clips of it on You Tube yet ?!

3

,

14/01/2007 00:51:13
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4

2dogs in D.C.,

learning more all the time 14/01/2007 00:51:15

Oh, yeah, now there's a can 'o worms. When will the "big folk" learn that EVERY THING they say in public is recorded? John Kerry tried to make a joke, and we know how that worked out.

5

scottwebb.co.uk,

14/01/2007 00:54:11
6

Dave M,

14/01/2007 00:59:33

Clown.

7

Thommo,

14/01/2007 00:59:36

"Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?"

Of course you are.

Make jokes about the Pope or a nun or Ian Paisley (in front of a private audience where no-one was liable to be offended)? Of course you are. Both "traditional" and "alternative" comdeians have made many such jokes, before various audiences.

Whether such things are an offence for which the Faculty of Advocates might punish one of its members I couldn't say. Perhaps it might be better to more closely scrutinise what its members do in court, who knows?

8

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 01:01:12

All he's done is crack a joke and voice opinions, it's not as if he's a child abuser.

9

Dave M,

14/01/2007 01:02:02

Findlay has been a strong supporter of the Conservative Party and famously led the Think Twice campaign against Scottish devolution in 1997.

Think twice?

10

Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 01:05:34

Why do you ask, 2 dogs?

Gordon - APART from the sectarian bit - most of your post at 6 COULD apply to your good self?

11

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 14/01/2007 01:07:02

# 3. BeachBoy, on the beach

Oh .. what he said is quite common in the realms of the 'big folk' & those who run Scotland ...

While the press get so uptight over christianity v islam, we have our own discrimination on our own doorstep .. http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=225&id=69662007 .. actually, that petition could be quite interesting to watch ..

There are plenty of us who don't have a problem with any religion, but the 'higher ups' in our society seem to thrive on bigotry, sectarianism & racism ... nasty stuff indeed.

Thanks for the link, Scott .. I was hoping for more of the actual video ... wonder if some kind person in tv can salvage it from archive footage & leak it ... I doubt the person who took the movie will though, as someone mentioned to me there was a contract put out over the actual filming ...

12

Cynical,

14/01/2007 01:10:02

#8.

Thommo, you'll never get away with that, you know.

Logic is an alien thought process in tabloid ridden, Labour's Scotland.

13

2dogs in D.C.,

learning more all the time 14/01/2007 01:16:16

#12-Bill- Maybe because i'm interested, and want to know? Again, it's really none of my beeswax, but I find it interesting how all our public figures keep managing to screw up time and again.

14

,

14/01/2007 01:20:53
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Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 01:23:11

2 dogs - I thought you'd read my message to you before Christmas. A reminder:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1905012006#new

Post 55 ;)

Best wishes!

16

Patrick from Hamilton,

Hamilton 14/01/2007 01:27:00

"Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?" he is reported to have asked. "Why can't you be forgiven for thinking that confessing to a priest who is confessing to God is ridiculous and offensive? Or that the Pope is a man of perdition?" he is said to have added.

Do we all need to disagree with this , or just those in positions of influence ?

17

Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 01:28:42

Gordon - I DID say apart from the sectarian bit...

Note that you didn't deny the hunting and voting Tory bit! ;)

18

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14/01/2007 01:39:19
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2dogs in D.C.,

learning more all the time 14/01/2007 01:44:53

Bill # 18- Don't ya know- I do, now , remember. But,nah, it's more to do with the hounds which now hound my life. Good to remember that old one anyway,thanks :-}

20

Wisnaeme,

Sent to Coventry, 14/01/2007 02:02:06

Ah thought ah was looking at a photo of Blunkett fer a minute,

That is how much interest I take in this regurgitated
trash. Blue nose or left foot bigotry? Is that the great sensational issue in today's Scotland or is it more recycled media drivel in which much ado about nothing much unexpectect receives gasps of amazement and outrage from the readership.

Bury it " Hootsmon" for most folk nowadays dinna care about some gobsh*te or other and their verbal bigotry.

Unless of course it's a wee distraction from more important public matters of this time and place by loyal,concerned and perhaps outraged "Hootsmon" apparatchnics.

21

Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 02:11:46

Gordon :)

22

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14/01/2007 02:18:56
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14/01/2007 02:23:19
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Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 02:41:15

27 - Brian

That's easy for you to say (or type?) :)

But you are quite right.

25

Faye,

Scotland 14/01/2007 02:55:09

Och the man was having a laugh. Too PC - what's the fuss about. Role model for younger solicitors? What a lot of toss.

26

Jer,

atlanta, ga 14/01/2007 04:37:00

ANYONE who believes in invisible sky gods -- of any flavor -- in this day and age ought to be forgiven for their folly by smarter folks. (father, son, holy ghost... pile ay pi$h)

27

MalcolmGG,

14/01/2007 04:40:51

This article has been linked from wallow.wallow, that nest of introspective Protestantism aka "Rainjurs enlightenment".

Watch out for the monosyllabic denial from the "mock offended Loyal".

"Loyal bears ar n'Embra furra skoosh'n'rat"

Bears.
Hilarious.

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14/01/2007 04:50:32
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14/01/2007 04:59:36
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14/01/2007 05:29:17
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14/01/2007 05:33:05
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Sunshine Charlie,

Capetown 14/01/2007 05:46:01

The man is a muppet

33

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14/01/2007 05:49:04
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The Daleks,

14/01/2007 06:09:55

Is Donald Findlay a QC, or a stand-up comedian?

He should choose one or the other, as the two don't sit well together.

Quite frankly, I was amazed when I found out about his wee earner on the side.

He should save the "dubious jokes job" til after his retirement.

35

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14/01/2007 07:09:52
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14/01/2007 07:36:47
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14/01/2007 07:48:32
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Pocket Dictionary,

14/01/2007 07:55:39

........and the media and regulating bodies totally ignore Scottie McClue a Talk 107 presenter calling for women who get pregnant outside of marriage to be taken to the town square and stoned (Talk 107 04/01/07 10pm - 1am).
What happened to the safer Scotland campaign

39

Tucker,

14/01/2007 08:20:37

I'd have laughed at the joke about the smoke, and I'd like to hear the ones about the nun and Paisley before deciding whether Mr Findlay is guilty of anything.

40

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14/01/2007 08:26:09
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14/01/2007 08:32:15
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14/01/2007 08:34:57
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michael campbell,

ross-shire 14/01/2007 08:58:55

Donald Findlay was hired to entertain and that is what he does.

Anyone who says they are offended is I believe a hypocrite.No one should give a hoot if a joke has a religious overtone or not .Its a joke for goodness sake.

At any rate The Faculty of Advocates require a proof level of beyond all reasonable doubt to support a compliant and no one in all honesty could say that Mr Findlay has offended.

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14/01/2007 09:01:13
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14/01/2007 09:01:48
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Jim McD,

Edinburgh 14/01/2007 09:05:40

It is a sad reflection of Scottish society that people are so sensitive that they are offended by what is an amusing quip. I suspect they would not have been offended if a visiting Cardinal had quipped same at a social function. This is symptomatic of what I would call the 'Garvaghy Road' syndrome ie people go out of their way to be offended a la the late Mary Whitehouse and 'dirty' TV programmes. Ignore the snipers, bully boys and political-correctees-gone-mad, Donald - we are still living in a free country despite the views of some of the respondents to this article.

47

Joemac,

Motherwell 14/01/2007 09:08:30

Would you employ Findlay to defend you? You'd be better with The Big Man from Chewin' the Fat. Those on legal aid don't get a choice. £300k from the state - thirty bob from the private sector I'd think.

48

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14/01/2007 09:12:00
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49

Emac,

14/01/2007 09:19:51

My God,will this clown tom minogue want to ban people from watching comedy,telling jokes and having a life next.If people are bigots for having an opinion then we are living in a very sad world,the P.C gone mad world.

50

Phil241106,

Airdrie 14/01/2007 09:25:23

All of this is so simple.
There is not one offensive word or one offensive song or offensive phrase that Scots don't know or recognise as such.
Anyone who offers any one of them to another, individually or in company, commits an offence and portrays themself as a social irritant at best or a bigoted, abrasive undesirable at worst whose continued appearance in public should be sesverely curtailed.

51

Emac,

14/01/2007 09:41:13

#53.
The guy told a joke! as to make people laugh,fun i belive it is called.Like did you hear the one about the Scotsman ,Englishman and the Irishman......Opps ,sorry is that been a bigot.

52

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 09:51:38

The witch-hunt of Donald Findlay demonstrates how illiberal and judgmental are those who portray themselves as being the complete opposite.

The knee-jerk response to any criticism of or humour directed against one side of Scotland’s religious-political divide involves endless repetition of the words ‘bigot’ and ‘sectarian’ in lieu of an argument. Precisely who decides what amounts to ‘bigotry’ or ‘sectarianism’? Well, according to coverage by the Scottish media, members of the Roman Catholic Church have assumed the sole right to define these terms as they see fit.

Those Scots who do not practise the Romish faith have no comparable right, it would appear, to complain about the aggressive triumphalism displayed by the late Cardinal Winning in his comment that ‘Scotland will be a Catholic country fifty years after my death’ or about his call for the religious segregation of nursery schools. We must remain silent in the face of Cardinal O’Brien’s request to his flock to produce as many children as possible lest they ‘be taken over by immigrants’. We are not permitted to take offence at O’Brien’s ludicrous ‘punch a pape’ soundbite or the propaganda emanating from Peter Kearney of the Scottish Catholic Media Office, which included the lie that the Celtic goalkeeper was cautioned for making the ‘sign of the cross’.

Freedom of speech – at least from one particular direction – is under grave threat in Scotland.

Incidentally, Findlay’s joke about the smoky atmosphere had already been told on a Radio 4 programme to gales of laughter from the audience and an absence of outrage in the media.

53

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14/01/2007 09:55:54
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14/01/2007 09:58:45
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Joel,

14/01/2007 10:00:06

This man is excellent at his job - not a given in the criminal lawyer profession - leave him alone!

56

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14/01/2007 10:06:13
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Alex.,

14/01/2007 10:12:09

Has the population of Scotland turned into a bunch of sensitive wee softies? If Roman Catholics want to complain about a QC cracking a joke perhaps other denominations should complain about the religious segregation taking place in the education system. Now that is worth complaining about. People in glass houses ........

58

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14/01/2007 10:13:49
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59

radical theologian,

california 14/01/2007 10:14:10

This kind of thing happens because Scotland (unlike other countries) has no clear definition of what it means by 'freedom of speech'. Politicians could have a proper debate on that rather than trying to change things by singling out individuals all the time.

60

Disgusted of,

Renfrewshire 14/01/2007 10:18:44

I wonder if those people here who are calling Donald Findlay a bigot have actually sat and listened to one of his after dinner speeches as I have, rather than just accept second-hand reports where a couple of comments from a 40min speech are taken out of context? The man is a very funny orator who spends most of the time during his speeches taking the mickey out of the stereotypical Scottish psyche including both sides of the sectarian problem, and (most importantly) ... himself. Findlay is undoubtedly a very intelligent man, who probably feels that the Roman Catholic Church is not for him and defends his right to say so. Surely the freedom to do so is what all Non-Roman, Christian churches are founded upon. Does that make him a bigot? If so, then it follows that all Non-Roman, Christian churches must be filled with bigots because their members wish the right to freedom of religion and choose to worship God in their own way. Is this what we are really saying? That the wee wummin' with her good hat and coat on every Sunday, going to the West Kirk for the 11 o'clock service must be a bigot because she wants to be a Christian but not a Roman Catholic one?

Surely Findlay's joke was more about the smoke rather than the death of the Holy Father? He wasn't exactly shouting, "Rejoice and rub yer haun's th'gither - he's deid". And let's face it, there have been jokes about nuns and bars of soap going around for years. Wake up people.

It seems that the issue here is that the establishment wants to make an example out of high profile people (especially non-Labour ones) to make it look like their New-Labour, hip-policy is working.

There is undoubtedly a big sectarian problem in Scotland and especially over here in the west, but Donald Findlay (who makes some cracking jokes at the expense of Rangers FC, The Church of Scotland and The Orange Lodge when he speaks at Celtic Supporters dinners) would not be at the top of my hit list when

61

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 10:18:49

#62 Blairs

Can you provide definitions of the words 'bigotry' and 'sectarianism' that will not impinge upon freedom of thought, speech or expression?

62

Shug,

UK 14/01/2007 10:19:22

His comments were made at a private function, and unless anyone there took offence it is best left alone. Personally I would be more concerned about some of the nonsense being spouted on this site by Scottwebb and Cherbi. Tosh.

63

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14/01/2007 10:31:31
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64

Bibendum,

of no importance so why ask ? 14/01/2007 10:34:22

Does the European convention on human rights not stipulate that everyone is entitled to 'privacy in their personal & private lives' ?

Surey Mr Findlay is entitled to the same right of privacy as everyone else.

Had he made the remarks refered to in his capacity of a QC then this debate may be valid however he did not.

The same act also entitles every one the right to earn a living, yet many on here wish to deprive Mr Findlay of TWO of his basic human rights.

A Scottish witchhunt in the year 2006 ! It's long past time this country grew up.

65

happysnail,

Stirling 14/01/2007 10:41:27

64 I am not saying that is ok to burn embassies. What I am saying is, that RCs have been the butt of jokes for years, and it was perfectly acceptable, (not by most RCS). In this age it is offensive to Moslems that their religion is used as a caricature or a joke, they went to the extremes and burnt Danish Embassies and so on.
A person in the position of an advocate and taking money from the public purse, should not be in the business of entertaining "football supporters", in the north of Ireland or anywhere else for that matter.

66

roberto,

14/01/2007 10:41:55

of course nobody else in the entire world told a joke or laughed at a joke about the pope around that time

67

Boberto,

14/01/2007 10:43:17

I see Cardinal O'Brien's "punch a pape" nonsense and his dubious way with statistics are being rehashed as well as this, in the story linked to above that we can't comment on.

We could use the Cardinal's own methods to suggest that Roman Catholics, who make up only around 15% of the population, commit 31% of the cases of sectarian abuse and violence.

68

Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 10:45:57

First of all, Alex No61 brings up that old chestnut about Catholic schools, a typical ploy of the anti-Catholic brigade. To him and others like him I say go and read the history of Catholic schools in Scotland before making ill judged comments.
Secondly, I know Tom Minogue and he is a man with a bee in his bonnet regarding Masons and any other subject that lights his fire, e.g. a new river Forth crossing and if he was to tell me today is Sunday I’d be checking my calendar.
As for Donald Findlay, I am probably one of the few people contributing who has attended a dinner where he spoke and I heard nothing that I considered offensive or anti-Catholic. He did tell a few anti Rangers jokes, something the newspapers don’t report.
Yes in the past he did make a mistake in singing sectarian songs but who among us hasn’t? Let’s not forget that most if not all Scottish newspapers continue to print anti-Catholic /anti-Irish stories in their sports sections.
Finally Donald Findlay was the Vice Chairman of Rangers not the Chairman as reported in the above story. If they can’t get the basic facts correct then what hope is there that the rest of the story is being reported accurately!

69

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 10:47:53

Maybe in an independent Scotland Findlay wouldn't get his sticky mitt into the public purse. Then he can promulgate his brand of anachronistic sectarianism on a full time basis to the knuckledraggers that make up his audience.

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14/01/2007 10:50:56
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14/01/2007 10:57:37
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JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 11:04:14

#74 Lumber Jack
So anyone who complains about having Catholic Schools is an anti-Catholic bigot? Do you not think they might just be anti-wasting money? I couldn't care less if you worship the sun god, but surely the best thing is to have a school where children are taught well - forget religion.

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14/01/2007 11:05:00
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14/01/2007 11:05:01
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Monki,

14/01/2007 11:06:30

Bad spelling I know, but it is annoying but who cares what has been said and by whom. Get over it for that is life

76

SILVANA,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 11:07:26

If Mr Findlay is such a high earner, why does he need to earn more money working as an entertainer or does he dontate his earnings to a charity? (£22.00 per ticket).

77

Boberto,

14/01/2007 11:08:14

Are Catholics near Middlesbrough really so humourless?

78

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 11:09:17

#75 Pete

Of course, if the word 'knuckledraggers' was used to describe members of Scotland's RC community claiming to be of Irish ancestry, the person responsible would immediately be accused of 'anachronistic sectarianism' at best and, arguably, a lot worse besides.

It is interesting to note that the independent Scotland you envisage would apparently curtail an individual's right to earn a living purely on the basis that his views don't meet with your approval.

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14/01/2007 11:09:47
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14/01/2007 11:10:19
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Giffnock Tim,

14/01/2007 11:17:42

I don't have a problem with Findlay's stuff at an after dinner speech. I suspect most Catholics could happily laugh at the smoke joke. Analysing every joke at an after dinner speech is anal and people who are looking to take offence will always find something.
Don't get me wrong. Findlay was bang out of order with singing of Hello Hello a few years back but it's now become a witchhunt.

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14/01/2007 11:21:29
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14/01/2007 11:28:27
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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 11:29:51

Ally Scott # 84

That free speach argument is always used by individuals when they want to justify unpalatble attitudes. When Findlay makes his sectarian diatribes under the guise of humour to self-selecting audiences his intention is to make his secratian attitudes mainstream. To reinforce sectarianism when it is widely perceived as invalid and illegal is senseless.

It's odd that you should object to the word "knuckledragger" when it is reflected at sectarians. How would you describe sectarians?

85

Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 11:39:09

78 JG Fife.
Show me where I say “anyone who complains about having Catholic Schools is an anti-Catholic bigot”?
Are you trying to insinuate that children attending Catholic schools are not taught well?

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14/01/2007 11:43:44
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14/01/2007 11:44:26
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Socrates470BC,

14/01/2007 11:53:42

If the Scottish Executive were serious about ending sectarianism, then they would start in the Schools.

It is absolute nonsense to split up young kids and put them into special groups defined by their parents religion. Until this ends we will have state sponsored sectarianism. Any action taken by the executive against sectarianism, whilst they still support sectarianism in schools will be seen as utter hypocrysy.

89

Alasdair Roy,

Aberdeen 14/01/2007 11:56:28

This looks like shaping up to be a major test case on free speech. Granted it's in the Disciplinary Tribunal of the Faculty of Advocates and not in a Court per se, but it will have ramifications in wider society and it may even end up in the Courts. Such a test case will always be in an area of controversy and bad taste. Better to have the boundaries set out here, where with Findlay's eloquence and undoubted ability there is a chance of free speech winning. The alternative might be a test case involving perhaps a mad mullah or crazy imam where free speech would almost cetainly lose.

90

dylan,

14/01/2007 12:00:10

freedom of expresson??

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Disgusted of,

Renfrewshire 14/01/2007 12:02:05

#95 ThePeter

Did Donald Findlay say, "I hate Catholics"? or did he simply tell a joke about the papal smoke and then tell a joke about Ian Paisley? It's obvious who the bigots are here - it's the ones who put words into other people's mouths.

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14/01/2007 12:03:27
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Brian,

14/01/2007 12:03:54

A large part of this thread reflects how comfortable and at ease Scotland sits with its centuries old anti-Catholicism.
The thread also reveals the unease and angry discomfort, coupled with denial, that results when Scotland's dark side is exposed, particularly when projected onto, or observed by, an international and world wide audience.
Long may this continue as this exposure of anti-Catholic bigotry is ultimately healthy as it is necessary for its eventual eradication.

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Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 12:11:21

#92 Pete

What may be an 'unpalatable attitude' to you may be the sincere belief of someone else. As mentioned in post #56, I find many of the attitudes and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church unpalatable, yet I do not call for censorship.

How on earth can Findlay be accused of making his sectarian attitudes 'mainstream', when he appears in front of 'self-selecting' audiences? It is not as if he has been given a comedy series on TV or radio!

As others on this thread have mentioned, his comedy routine is not directed solely at the RC Church and his remarks have been taken out of context and sensationalised. Many other after-dinner speakers come away with much worse than he is being accused of and I fear that the political-media establshment witch-hunt of this individual is deeply regrettable and speaks volumes for the state of McConnell's Scotland.

The terms 'knuckledragger' and 'sectarians' are purely subjective and amount to little more than terms of abuse.

97

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 12:15:33

102
A large part of this thread reflects how sick and tired people are of the non stop whining and complaining from elements among RCs.
If Protestants complained about every every remark by RCs in the media, every slogan painted on their walls, every time they, or their children were addressed by the H word, or had "Animals" chanted at them by hooped drunks the courts would clog up in a day.

98

Blairs,

The Maghreb 14/01/2007 12:17:55

To AM and Ally I believe that the existence of religious sects leads to bigotry.

All you are doing is creating artifical differences. If sectarianism is your bag well, I guess that is up to you. However, the rest of the population shouldn't have to be exposed to it or be expected to listen patiently whilst we have the virtues of sectarianism espoused to us. What are the virtues of sectarianism, out of curiosity?

99

GrahamH,

14/01/2007 12:19:18

Incredible that people above defend his position in this century. Some genuinely seem to believe he does no harm, they are not just posturing!

Rangers FC make no genuine attempt to stamp out sectarianism, nor do the police. I attended a RFC match as a corporate guest ( I am a Hearts fan) and I was in middle of season ticket stand. The anti catholic songs, shouts etc were disgusing. The police and security were in midst and smiling along!

With video evidence we could make a huge inroad to stamp this out, detailed pictures available of those leading this are easily available at a minor cost.

Why does his old club not do something genuine to stamp this out in sectarian heartland, Ibrox.

100

Socrates470BC,

14/01/2007 12:21:08

Do you want any politician, policeman, or religious leader in this country to tell you what you can say and what you can think? If they can tell you what you cannot say and cannot think then they are very close to being able to control your thoughts and actions. Is that the kind of society you want to belong to?
In many cases offence is taken when none is offered.
Read the book ‘a course in miracles’ it will ask you to find an object in a room, a table or a chair maybe. You will then be asked “what does that object mean?” The truth is that the object has no meaning, only the meaning that you choose to give it. The same is true in how we react to what other people say. How you interpret what was said and how you react is up to you. Do you really have the power to tell me what I can and cannot say? Nothing has any meaning except the meaning that we choose to give it.
The Dali Lama was at a birthday party when someone came up to him and started off a torrent of abuse directed at the Dali Lama (DL). DL looked at him bemused and let him continue. When the man was finished DL looked at him and asked
If I came to your birthday party bearing a gift and offered you that gift and you refused to accept that gift, who would be left holding the gift? The man answered “you would be left holding the gift”.
DL then asked “if you come to me offering hatred and abuse, and I refuse to accept it, who is left with the hatred and abuse?”
We do not have to accept or agree with what people say, and unless you want to live in a totalitarian state, we should support everyone’s right to say what they want. Without freedom of speech there is no freedom.

101

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 12:23:18

103
I think you are just trying to change the point, I am not surprised with what is in the public arena re. priestly abuse.
I doubt you know any more of Freemasonry's initiations than I do.
I didn't ask them to film the nun's initiation I suspect it was another propaganda attempt, to show us how cuddly catholicism is, that went wrong.
I don't know anything about Jehovah's Witnesses, I didn't even know he'd had an accident.

102

Blairs,

The Maghreb 14/01/2007 12:25:03

Just sitting watching what is going on in Palestine, this internicine strife with Fatah and Hamas killing each other is a classic example of the "fruits" of sectarianism.

103

Lamberts Teef,

14/01/2007 12:26:18

Donald Findlay says:

"Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?" he is reported to have asked. "Why can't you be forgiven for thinking that confessing to a priest who is confessing to God is ridiculous and offensive? Or that the Pope is a man of perdition?" he is said to have added.

Now whether you agree or disagree with him, he must have the right to his opinion. It is not sectarianism to dislike Catholicism (or any other religion for that matter) just as it is not sectarian to say Protestantism is ridiculous and the CoS Moderator is "a man of perdition".

It seems in modern Scotland that the label "bigot" is thrown towards those with whom you disagree with. It is simple and effective, gives the illusion of self-righteousness, but is also dangerous to free speech because it tries to cut debate at the roots.

Notice already here, anyone wanting to even just mention separate schooling is immediately called a bigot. Separate schooling may be good or bad for Scotland, but to even discuss it openly and intelligently is in itself bigotry.

104

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 12:26:30

Ally Scott # 104

His attitudes become mainsteam because his audience think that's the way people like them should think. They are then promulgated more widely within the community.
I suspect that the term "sectarian," "denoting, concerning, or deriving from a sect or sects," is arrived at from the context as you suggest. To describe someone as a "knuckledragger" has always been acceptable as long as it was not directed at your sect, yes or no? Let's try "less evolved?"
Donald Findlay is not Chubby Brown; Findlay purports to be a pillar of the Scottish establishment, that is why his attitudes are perceived as important.

105

John Huss,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 12:28:56

The real issue here is that the PC brigade will not tolerate any especially those in high positions who stray from the "party line".

Donald Finlay is entitled to his opinions but not according to these "intellectual fascists" who are apalled that someone has the audacity to express their own views on issues that our nation has problems dealing with.

In Jack McConnell's Scotland the real shame is that we cannot have an informed debate about issues that many are too scared to voice for fear of retribution from the PC brigade.

The biggest contribution to Scotland's sectarian shame is the refusal to debate the real issue of apartheid that exists in our education system where 16% of Scotland's population can say or do anything they like without fear of retribution.

In today's "free" Scotland Protestant = bigot whereas Roman Catholic = nice moderate person

Is the block catholic vote that represents less than 20% of Scotland's electorate really that important to our politicians in that they are now prepared to ostracise anyone who expresses an opposing view?

Wake up and smell the coffee Scotland.

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14/01/2007 12:30:08
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exiles,

england 14/01/2007 12:30:31

Every time we start considering a return to Scotland we read comments like these and change our minds. Anti-English, anti-Catholic, anti-anything different. Will it ever change? Can't you put your energy into making Scotland the best country in the world for anyone to live in?

108

Billy Mason,

London 14/01/2007 12:40:06

We will never eradicate sectarianism in Scotland until we eliminate free thinking, freedom of speech, and the Protestant people.
That is what is really meant here.

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14/01/2007 12:40:11
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wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 12:40:18

115
We're discussing a man who could lose his livelyhood because two professional victims raise a complaint about a joke he told at a private function.
"It's smoky in here, has another Pope died?"
Get the polis !!!!

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14/01/2007 12:41:32
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14/01/2007 12:46:21
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JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 12:50:13

#93 Lumber Jack
No of course I'm not saying children who attend Catholic Schools aren't taught well - just that there shouldn't BE any (well, not unless someone wants to pay for them themselves, I suppose). The local authority should be obliged to provide A SCHOOL for children to attend - religion shouldn't come into it. Is that not the best way to eradicate religious divides? Don't create them in the first place.

114

Ally Scott,

14/01/2007 12:51:33

#119 The-Rt.-Hon.-MC

Artur Boruc was not 'widely condemned' for making the sign of the cross.

He was cautioned by the Scottish Crown Office following a report by Strathclyde Police which highlighted obscene hand gestures the player directed towards the Rangers support.

However, tell a lie often enough............

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14/01/2007 12:53:44
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Sixupman,

Somerset 14/01/2007 13:00:51

As a Catholic I may not like anti-Catholicism, but I would not deny the QC's right to indulge in the same - whether in public or private.

By the way, O'Brien is hardly the best advert for Catholicism! Also, I puke every time is see the now exalted IRA/SinnFein chiefs spout on TV and Radio - they should all have been excommunicated years ago.

I am of Irish descent and have worked in bot North and South. Two of my children born in Ayshire.

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Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 13:07:39

#107 GrahamH


You say that you find it 'incredible that people above defend his position in this century'.

I can only speak for myself but I am defending Findlay on the basis of the right to freedom of speech and expression, that he said nothing worse than can be heard on mainstream radio or TV and that he is being witch-hunted by Scotland's establishment.

Like other PC fascists you seem remarkably at home with the idea of 'video evidence' and 'detailed pictures' and clearly relish the idea of 'stamping it out' - presumably with an Orwellian jackboot.

Noticeably, you restrict yourself to the relatively trivial aspects of sectarianism displayed at football matches (and even more noticeably fail to mention Celtic in this respect) yet fail to mention institutionalised sectarianism in the guise of the domination of the Labour party, the public sector in general and local government in the west of Scotlands by RCs, to the extent that Glasgow hasn't had a non-RC Lord Provost since the early 70s.

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14/01/2007 13:10:40
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Blairs,

The Maghreb 14/01/2007 13:12:13

#121 AM - yes that was roughly my definition which of course has the all to inevitable spin off of extremism.

It is the ones that set apart their differences and work together that make a difference. For example, Anwhar Sadat and Nelson Mandela. Sadat was murdered by a terrorist that held just such narrowly defined and devoted beliefs. Not really a great advert for sectarianism.

As for free speech and the right to be in a secterian, that is up to you. Go for it.

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14/01/2007 13:17:31
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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 13:18:46

Scotland will never be an independent nation while there is so much sectarian bigotry in play. The protestant supremacists have shown their hand and what they want in an independent Scotland. The majority in Scotland are not going to vote for that intolerance, never mind the minorities that are the focus of it.

122

Swilly Tisher,

Loch Maree 14/01/2007 13:26:47

Scotland is now a secular state. Burn all the bibles, please. They have no relevance and they tear us apart , quite frankly. As for our Donald...well , I think he's just a figure of fun ; a darned good lawyer , though. I don't harbour any sectarian prejudices, but we need more characters like him.The sooner we can laugh at some of our absurd loyalties (with a small "l") the better.

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Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 13:37:03

#131 Pete

Yet again, you portray 'sectarianism' and 'bigotry' as a one-way street.

Which Church considers itself to be the 'one true faith' and views all other Christian denominations as aberrations?

Which is the only faith in Scotland to have its own schools (on anything other than a token scale)?

Which Church urged its flock to go forth and multiply lest they be 'taken over by immigrants"?

Which Church claimed it would dominate Scotland in less than 50 years?

Which Church attempted to enforce religious apartheid in nursery schools?

Which football club has by far largest number of supporters drawn from the ranks of national and local government?

Which Church demanded the right to have separate toilets, separate staff-rooms, separate entrances, etc., etc., in 'single-campus' schools?

Which Church has a bishop who, when speaking to a cohort of graduating student teachers, managed to mention the word 'Catholic' 15 times and the word 'Christian' not once at all?

And you talk about 'intolerance' and 'Protestant supremacism'!

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Pilrig,

Livingston 14/01/2007 13:42:02

For a professed athiest he has curious affectation for the Larkhall/Harthill brand of presbyterianism, which mainstream proddies like myself find rather loathsome.

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Pilrig,

Livingston 14/01/2007 13:43:23

Oh and Jesus wants even wee Donald for a sunbeam !

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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 13:52:17

Ally Scott # 134

Minorities are entitled to protect themselves from attitudes like Findlays and yours.
Look out, your lambskin apron is showing!

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Emac,

14/01/2007 13:54:28

Pete 131 "Scotland will never be an independent nation while there is so much sectarian bigotry in play. "Get a grip the man told a joke!

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14/01/2007 14:05:38
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Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 14:06:10

#137 Pete

For you information I am not a freemason and am bewildered as to why you should relate freemasonry to the topic under discussion.

There is absolutely no bar to Roman Catholics being freemasons - or Jews, Muslims, etc. However, the RC Church itself discourages its members from joining.

Nonetheless, several popes have been freemasons and there are indications that the Vatican and in particular its financial side are strongly associated with freemasonry.

131

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 14:20:17

ally scott

You don't cure bigotry by banning what the bigots hate. . .

Catholic schools exist peacefully, productively and happily all over the world.

In fact, they exist pretty happily everywhere other than about 4 or 5 local authorities in Scotland - coincidentally the same areas where the vast majority of sectarian related crime is reported.

Bigotry begins at home. I feel sorry for the kids unlucky enough to be born into homes where they are taught to hate and to slander.

Bigotry is not caused by Catholic schools.

A merging of schools might be a good idea if there was any remote possibility that the benefits that Catholic children currently get in the schools they are in would be retained and that they would not be bullied by mini bigots.

Stop bigotry first, then we can think about merging schools - in a climate of respect.

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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 14:34:18

Emac # 138

The joke is a symptom of the rampant sectarianism in Scotland as evinced by many of the posts here.
Judge a man by the company he keeps; Andy Goram friend to Loyalist terrorists in the "Loyalist stronghold of Larne."
Are you sure he was just over there to tell a few jokes?

133

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 14:40:26

Ally Scott # 142

Not the kind of Freemasonry that is prevalent in west central Scotland though.
You would probably find that the Catholic Church would not be so against all secular schools, but for the sectarianism in Scotland. The abolition of Catholic schools has been mooted here, in a discussion which is ostensibly about the activities of Donald Findlay.
I suggest that the abolition of the Orange Order, Black Order and Freemasonry, in Scotland, be raised in the same breath. That's equality.

134

PowerScot,

KZN 14/01/2007 14:45:04

There is much more at stake here than Findlay's reputation. The world will be looking at the Faculty of Advocates with interest and Scotland's reputation will undoubtedly come unde the spolight.
Nevertheless, allow me to extend an invitation to Mr Findlay to take his roadshow to Rome, Madrid, Lisbon, Warsaw, Paris, Buenos Aires, Rio, Lima, Barcelona, Naples, Milan, Dublin, Boston, New York, Philly, Santiago, etc. etc. etc. etc. I mean if both he and his supporters are goingto bleat about freedom of speech I am sure the citizens of these cities would understand. Wouldn't they?

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14/01/2007 14:45:17
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Blairs,

The Maghreb 14/01/2007 14:45:35

#120 AM - I wasn't thinking of the nutters kicking lumps out of each other using football and or religion as their excuse. I was thinking more along the lines of the intolerance towards others that being in a sect can cause with, the all to predictable, rise in distrust, intolerance and in extreme cases violence.
The fact that you are a devoted acolyte of a sect, must by definition, narrow your outlook on life and your opinion of the outside World and its inhabitants that are not co-devotees.

137

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 14:47:11

#147 Pete
Hang on - no-one is talking about banning the Catholic Church - only about not segregating the schools. The organisations on a parallel with the ones you mentioned would be things like the Hibernian Society and the Knights of St. Columba (and similar!). Will you be banning those too?

138

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 14:53:28

JG # 151

Fine by me. But, no one has been talking about banning anything else than Catholic schools. Ban the schools, ban the rest.

PowerScot # 148
Findlay doesn't doesn't have the courage to promulgate his views outside of that cosy little cabal.

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Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 14:54:36

JG 151

Not segregating schools is OK by me, and OK by most Catholics.

ALL children are welcome at Catholic schools, then there need be NO segregation.

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TREV,

Poland 14/01/2007 14:54:47

Well, there are mason's here in Poland, Mozart (Austrian Catholic) was a mason and Robert Burns (not a Catholic but not a friend of his church, either) was too.

Just a question, everyone jumps on the anti-Catholic jokes but since when has Ian Paisley (who once called JP2 to his face the anti-christ) ever been to Mass?

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Brian,

14/01/2007 14:55:11

#105

Suffice to say it is a relatively simple exercise to squeeze the bitterness out of you my angry friend... a bit like squeezing the juice out of an orange well past its sell by date.

#143

"You don't cure bigotry by banning what the bigots hate. Catholic schools exist peacefully, productively and happily all over the world... Stop the bigotry first, then we can think about merging schools - in a climate of respect."

Absolutely, and certainly not before.

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Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 14:57:38

Pete 147

I dont think the Church is against secular schools.

I think the Church is for the right of parents to have their children educated the way they choose.

I think it's called parental choice.

I know certain fascists are determined to mandate their views on Catholic parents, but that really is deplorable.

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14/01/2007 14:57:39
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14/01/2007 15:00:52
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Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 15:02:22

158

Why is such a memorial to events in Ireland in a graveyard in Rome?

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Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 15:05:09

davieboy144,


Non Catholic schools do breed sectarianism. It is institutionalised.

From the minute they walk in the door the kids are told who and what they are and that they are different from other sections of the community.

I know of friends who have worked in these schools who (among other things) were told at a school assembly by the local Miknister that all catholics are turds.

Also, seeing a drunked Minister sing "F*** The Pope" at a staff social event in the school, was not unheard of.

Furthermore as the recent figures suggest that 99% percent of crimes aggravated by sectarianism are committed by Heathens, then at 64% of the population they are twice as likely to be the perpetrators of such crimes.

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JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 15:06:07

#152 Pete, #153 Pex Vobascum
A better idea is (as I said before) for the local authority to build one school for the area and have all of the pupils attend there. No religion, one uniform.

Pex, your suggestion is just a magnanamous gesture by the Catholic schools to welcome others in - mine would make no distinction at all!!

148

Blairs,

The Maghreb 14/01/2007 15:07:35

An element of these posts paint a picture of the current Scotland being comparable with Iraq during the reign of Saddam. 18% of the population Sunni and they ran the place instead of the Shia masses in the South East of the country.
Looks like Scotland will need to be invaded by the US and Blair (remember there are some natural resources left) to give the hard pressed majority their democratic rights.

149

davieboy144,

14/01/2007 15:10:17

161 pex

whats your point?

150

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 15:10:26

Chairman Gordon # 158

I don't get your point(s), what Labour MP.
If you want a memorial to famine victims eslewhere in Scotland go and organise one, go, go!

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14/01/2007 15:13:00
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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 15:15:04

Dodgy davieboy144 # 164

Difficult concept this; it's a tit-for-tat for your rambling, garbled, wrong post earlier # 157. You should try to sober up before you make ludicrous assertions. You will grow up silly if you go on like that.

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14/01/2007 15:15:26
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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 15:16:40

JG # 166

I don't think he said that "Catholic Schools can teach Christian values." But, it seems only Catholic schools want to.

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14/01/2007 15:20:23
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davieboy144,

14/01/2007 15:24:17

170

The fact is that sectarianism does exist and it most definitely not a 1 way street.

157

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 15:24:23

davieboy144 # 168

Let me be the first to say that Frank Roy MP is a bellend for making such a comment and that attempting to make political capital from it is scandalous.

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14/01/2007 15:24:54
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Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 15:25:50

not the most enlightening of answers davie boy . . . .

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JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 15:26:57

#160 Pete
"Let's support Catholic Schools in their quest to teach Christian values to children"

And part before that singled out only the Protestant "culprits". It takes two to make an argument and one side is no better than the other.

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14/01/2007 15:29:50
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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 15:32:08

Chairman Gordon # 174

I can't remember what the weather was like on Christmas Day or what I had for dinner on the 29th of December 2006: my memory is not selective in respect to Frank Roy MP: I do not stalk Labour MPs.

I don't think that your "professional victims" jibe is very pertinent, there's not many left around. As I said, organise your memorial and forget the "straw man" defence in advance.

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14/01/2007 15:42:38
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davieboy144,

14/01/2007 15:43:49

178
The is an Irish Catholic tradition in Scotland and there is an Irish Protestant tradition also and from my understanding potato blight was not particular to Catholics, therefore why do Catholics want their own seperate memorial, their own seperate schools etc.

Are we, the non-Catholics, really that bad?

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14/01/2007 15:45:31
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Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 15:54:21

#170 Hair Care Baby McGhee

You assert that:

'Given the smaller population, Catholics are five times as likely to be subject to a sectarian attack than protestants.'

This is complete nonsense.

The only data related to sectarian ATTACKS that I an aware of - as distinct from sectarian-related INCIDENTS - was produced by Prof. Steve Bruce who established that the number of murders of Protestants and Catholics in Scotland which could be attributed to having a 'sectarian motive' over a span of 15 years or so was approximately equal.

This can either be spun as RCs being more likely to be victims or as being more likely to be perpetrators - take your pick.

Nonetheless, in the areas in which most sectarian murders (which were comparatively few, it must be emphasised) take place, the population split is nowhere near 5 to 1 - much more like 2 to 1 or even less.

The phrase 'bigotry begins at home' is meaningless - it is simply an attempt by the RC Church to deflect blame from its desire to enforce religious apartheid.

It may not be true to say that segregation in education CAUSES sectarianism - but it makes it very difficult to eradicate in areas in which it already exists. Therefore, educational segregation PERPETUATES sectarianism would be closer to the mark.

167

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 15:58:28

Ally Scott # 183

People like Donald Findlay, Andy Goram and the Larne loyalists (loyal to whom) cabal perpetuates sectarianism. You are sloganising!

168

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 15:59:09

162

How about ONE school, ONE religion (Catholicism) and have all the pupils attend it?

169

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:00:38

JG 166

Why do YOU assume only Catholic Schools can teach Christian values?

170

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171

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:04:57

I notice that this storty has prompted the rather predictable attacks on Catholic education by the usual demented bigots and fascists.

Two observations:

1/ Has anyone got around to providing any evidence that Catholic Schools contribute to sectarianism?

2/ The mass of filthy anti Catholic bigotry here serves well to remind ordinary, decent, law abiding Catholics that dedicated schools are absolutely necessary, until the evils learn to stop hating Catholics.

172

BOJAN,

florida usa 14/01/2007 16:09:06

My answer to this subject,Has anyone ever heard of the organisation called,NAACP. this is what the above story puts me in mind of when i read anything like this.One simple story and all hell breaks loose from the other side. There seems to be people on the look out for stories like this, just something to jump on so they can bitch about..........

173

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:09:14

Ally Scott - you are clearly coming from an established position . . . .

"The phrase 'bigotry begins at home' is meaningless - it is simply an attempt by the RC Church to deflect blame from its desire to enforce religious apartheid".

If I was born in Coatbridge as a Catholic and my parents kept on going on about how protestants are the root of all evil and that only catholics go to heaven, I might become a bigot. I might soak up the anger for what happened to Catholics in various points of history and I might develop bigoted attitudes or become violent.

If I was born in Airdrie and get dragged along to orange walks, learn to get all misty eyed when I think of the Queen (like Donald) abd learn all the words of all the right songs and get told by my dad that Catholic immigrants ruined Scotland's economy and are all inclined towards terrorism and care more about Rome than Britain, then I might become a vicious wee bigot as well.

Schools don't have this in the curriculum.

BIGOTRY BEGINS AT HOME

174

davieboy144,

14/01/2007 16:09:18

190

The cardinal said it, so it must be true!

175

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14/01/2007 16:13:59
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176

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 16:14:17

#185 Pex Vobiscum
How about ONE school NO religion? They're meant to be there to learn how to read, write, count etc..

177

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 16:15:13

#186 Pex Vobiscum
I DON'T!!!

178

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:15:29

BIGOTRY BEGINS AT HOME

I have known scores of sickening bigots.

They are uncommonly stupid and ignorant.

Like many who rant against Christian education here.

None of them attended Catholic Schools.

All of them learned bigotry from their parents. At home.

I sometimes think that the "sash my father wore" is a metaphor for the gift a bigot passes down to his son: a pathalogical hatred of Catholics.

179

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14/01/2007 16:16:11
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180

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 16:19:13

AM # 190

Unwarranted criticism is hypocritical and bigoted. What is you criticism?

181

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:19:26

JG 195

catholicism not for you or yours? Fair enough. I guess you wouldnt like me to impose my relgion on you, eh?

Now, you dont want to have your views on me, do you, JG.

Will it be OK if I have my children educated my way?

Is that OK with you?

182

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:22:21

AM 190

Being critical of Catholicism, or any religious group, is not being bigoted! Where on earth has this idea come from?

No, it's not, but attacking my right to provide a Catholic education for my children is.

183

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14/01/2007 16:23:49
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184

Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 16:25:30

183 Ally Scott
If as you say “educational segregation PERPETUATES sectarianism” why is it that there is no sectarianism issues within fee-paying schools?
If “educational segregation PERPETUATES sectarianism” why is it that children of other religions, eg, Jewish, Muslim etc, who attend non-denominational schools are still subjected to racism?

185

Stu Young,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 16:26:09

I can still remember the first time I was called a "bastard". I was 6 years old and the little boy who told me I was one was my wee catholic pal, aged 5.

He had just started school a year after me, and said what he said in all innocence. Fortunately for me he was overheard saying this by his mum. Asked to explain himself, he said that at morning prayers at his catholic school the priest had informed them that if their mums and dads had not been married in the catholic church they were not properly married and therefore all their children were bastards (not illigitimate or love childs etc, but bastards).

Obviously embarassed and no doubt aware that I would at some point repeat this in front of my own parents, the poor woman (red faced with embarassment as my mum recalls) sped off to my parents front door to offer her apologies.

So, what's all this TOSH about bigotry beginning in the home and not in RC schools?

186

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:27:02

One of the things that separates our wee country from various tin pot dictatorships is certain freesdoms.

Here we see various fascists call for an end to freedoms Catholics (and others) have enjoyed in the UK for decades.

Adolf would be proud of all of you!

Now, why dont you fascists grow up, and let Catholic families provide a Ctaholic education for Catholic children.

We aint trying to impose our views on you.

You're trying to impose your views on us.

No, thanks Adolfs.

187

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14/01/2007 16:27:08
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188

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 16:29:09

#192 Hair Care Baby McGhee

I take it that you are unfamiliar with the concept of a closed-loop system.

Segregating children at the age of 5 into 'us' and 'them' perpetuates a huge social division. Children are brought up making friends only with other kids on the same 'side'. This continues into adulthood. How on earth do you break the generation cycle underpinning prejudice, mistrust and ultimately bigotry by maintaining this social division - the adults in the homes you are referring to were, of course, brought up in the same situation!

Why were separate schools for blacks and whites eliminated in the US?

189

davieboy144,

14/01/2007 16:29:22

201

are you willing to pay for it out of your own pocket

190

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:30:12

Exactly Lumber - and why is there very little sectarianism in 28 out of Scotland's 32 local authorities?

BIGOTRY BEGINS AT HOME.

Stu, nice wee story. What has it got to do with sectariansim?

191

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14/01/2007 16:32:05
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192

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 16:33:37

Pex Vobiscum
Please show me anywhere today where I have suggested you (and your family) shouldn't be Catholic if you so desire? My objection is to having segregated education - ONE school, NO religion is the basis of everything I've posted today.

I actually haven't critisised Catholics or Protestants at all - I simply feel that you learn to read, write and count in a school. You learn about religion in a Church. You choose which one. I don't care - it's none of my business.

193

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:33:43

208,

so you dont want separate schools?

Fine - send them all to Catholic Schools - your problem is now solved.

194

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:33:45

Ally, fair enough in some respects but that is one small part of the overall picture.

You should know what my argument is by now.

Merging - might be good for society in many respects - but not in the current climate where Catholics joining a secular schol in some local authorities are going to get bullied and will simply not get the quality of education that they get now.

Stop bigotry first - start with not blaming Catholic schools and the Catholic hierarchy for the neanderthal thugs chanting at Ibrox like a bunch of orcs.

BIGOTRY BEGINS AT HOME

195

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14/01/2007 16:34:59
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196

Stu Young,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 16:35:42

206 Pex V.

"Adolfs"

As Herr Hitler was one of your own [a Roman Catholic]Pex (along with Mussolini and Franco - the latter not without support from the RC church in Scotland) if you are going to insult Scotland's majority do not add insult as well!!

197

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14/01/2007 16:36:53
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198

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:37:32

Alright AM - give us your arguments against Catholic schools in a way that is not an attack.

And, by the way, do you think Donald should get the job?

Spread the data

199

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 16:37:46

#204 Lumber Jack

"If as you say “educational segregation PERPETUATES sectarianism” why is it that there is no sectarianism issues within fee-paying schools?'

I don't understand what you're getting at here. I am certainly aware of altercations along religious lines between pupils of Hutchesons' and Glasgow Academy with those of St. Aloysius in rugby matches years ago.

'If “educational segregation PERPETUATES sectarianism” why is it that children of other religions, eg, Jewish, Muslim etc, who attend non-denominational schools are still subjected to racism?'

I don't think anyone would argue that racism will die out because kids of different races attend the same type of school. However, I believe that racial problems would be very much more acute if we had schools along ethnic or racial lines.

200

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:38:26

AM 217, but it IS a right, enshrined in legislation, and the bigot boys will not stop it.

Note: I aint trying to impose my views on others.

Others are trying to impose their views on me.

Removing freedoms.

That#'s fascism.

201

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:40:38

The fascists have made various grand statements to justify their anti catholic education vitriol.

I guess they're just trying to justify their fascism.

There's NO EVIDENCE to support their stance.

202

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 16:42:29

#216 Pex Vobascum
I wondered how long it would take you to resort to name calling!

You are an idiot!!

203

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:42:49

Hey 218, you choose your words, and I'll choose mine. OK?

Oh, and I'll choose how I have MY children educated and you can butt out of that too.

Take yer fascism and stick it.

204

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14/01/2007 16:44:11
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205

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:46:25

This post withdraws 226, and apologises to AM.

CORRECTION:

Hey 218, you choose your words, and I'll choose mine. OK?

206

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:46:59

OK - misunderstood you. Sorry.

The fact is that most of the arguments against Catholic schools are based on attacks on Catholicism and the idea that society would be better if everyone went to secular schools which did not have a religious ethos.

Many parents want to send their kids to Catholic schools because they believe them to be better for their kids.

If there was proof that Catholic schools taught children to hate other people then, yes, they should be closed.

However, the problem is bigots who are taught to be bigots in bigoted parts of the country by bigoted parents, not schools.

207

Stu Young,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 16:47:58

222 Pex V.

There you go again ..... using that word "fascism".

When will it sink into that thick skull of yours that FASCISM - Hitler (a catholic) Mussolini (a Catholic) and Franco (a catholic) - is a catholic political concept. It is undemocratic (did you have a vote at the election of the last pope?) and no proponent of freedom of speech etc.

So you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say that Scots (that is, those with no alliegence to any foreign entity) are anti-catholic and also fascists, its not logical.

208

BOJAN,

florida usa 14/01/2007 16:48:20

#217 Stu your the only person i have ever heard mentioning that hitler was a catholic, i always knew this to be a fact,and people never believed me, and the names you mentioned,is also true. It was always my belief that all dictators were born of the roman catholic faith, and now i have just read from another reader who came up with the same answers, how sweet it is......

209

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 16:50:24

#203 Raasayson,

So, there are absolutely no racial problems whatsoever in Cailfornia - or in the rest of the US?

Everybody gets along like a house on fire - whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics - do they?

If there's one thing worse than the illiberalism of the PC brigade and the strained justifications for religious segregation in education on this thread, it's the sanctimonious attitude taken by certain exiles.

Sadly, there is friction between communities, ethnic groupings and religions around the world and this is most certainly not restricted to Scotland.

210

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:51:02

Chairman - what about the Polish war memorial in St Andrews? Pretty much 100% Catholics who have celebrated memorials there.

Got a problem with that?

211

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14/01/2007 16:51:26
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212

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:51:54

Ally scott - you still haven't admitted that bigotry begins at home. Can you concede that?

213

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 16:53:46

#227 Pex Vobascum
A liar? How? I disagree with you and I'm a fascist? How? I never suggested you shouldn't be allowed to follow your religious beliefs - only that schools are meant for academic learning. Why is that such a problem for you?

214

Keith Lagden,

14/01/2007 16:54:14

#76 Well said seperate schools is the start of the problem first RC's next Muslim, What about the rest of us.

215

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:54:32

232

Adolf was indeed baptised a Catholic, but soon renounced it to become a fascist, with a virulent hatred of people of a particular religion.

Sadly, here we are many many year later, and people with similar views are posting here, though in their case, their hatred is for catholics.

Very sad.

Time to move on, fascists.

216

Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 16:54:55

221 Ally
“I am certainly aware of altercations along religious lines between pupils of Hutchesons' and Glasgow Academy with those of St. Aloysius in rugby matches years ago.”
Show me the proof of this?
How long ago is “years ago”?
If what you state is true why then aren’t you on here saying that these schools should be closed and all the kids who attend them should go to a non-denominational state school?

232 BoJan
So people like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao where all Catholics?
Grow up!

217

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:55:25

76,

If you want secular schools, pay for them yourself.

Not the tax payer.

218

Rossw,

14/01/2007 16:56:03

Can I ask a serious question to those who think that by opposing separating our children and openly welcoming your children to learn with our non Catholic children whilst visiting your places of worship on the sabbath?

Do you honestly think that bigoted parents would want the children of the religion which they so detest to attend the same school as their children? I think not!!!

To hear the vitriolic rhetoric of some on here you would think they lived somewhere like Kosovo and ethnic cleansing was threatened on a daily basis.

As the son of a mother from Wexford and grandson of the most devoutly catholic woman I ever knew, I find Scotland a welcoming, tolerant country on the whole. The Scottish executive driven by the Catholic church have taken what was a mainly 90 minute problem and opened an uneccessary can of worms.

219

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:56:20

240

Exactly the same.

A school of YOUR choosing.....unless the fascists succeed in preventing freedom.

220

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 16:58:21

BOJAN - what an idiotic post.

Do some research - it's easy.

Some dictators for you to look up:

Julius Caesar, Jozef Stalin, Idi Amin, Chlopicki, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, PW Botha, Ozal Turgut, Ian Smith, General Suharto, Batista, Bolkiah.

221

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 16:58:54

244

I want a Catholic education for MY Catholic children in a Catholic School.

What's YOUR problem with how I educate MY children?

222

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:04:28

Chairman, thanks for the history lesson, although it was not necesary as far as I am concerned.

I'm confused, are you saying that the Polish community have more right to put up a memorial for the war dead than the Irish community do to put a memorial up to remember a famine?

Please clarify.

Would both seem quite good reasons to have a place of remembrance.

223

Stu Young,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 17:04:50

232 BOJAN

Happy to be of assistance Bojan. Hitler's adherence to Roman Catholicism can be found in many academic and scholarly publications. The most recent being in Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion", page 274 where Hitler tells his adjutant, General Engel, "I shall remain a Catholic for ever."

Hitler's Catholicism is not something the RC church likes to talk about. Nor is the fact that without the support of the cenre-right German Catholic Party (led by a RC cleryman) in the Reichstag, Hitler and his scum would not have been able to come to power.

You will also find pleaty on this subject on the WWW.

All the best.

224

Rossw,

14/01/2007 17:05:38

248

Children should not be idocrinated into any religion they should be allowed to choose when they are morally and philosophically capable.

225

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14/01/2007 17:05:43
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226

Stu Young,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 17:07:34

253 Pete

PAISLEY

227

Stu Young,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 17:08:23

253 Pete

Its full of candle-burners

228

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 17:09:04

Bojan # 232

The worst fascist dictator in the world now, is your president, what Catholic school did he go to?

229

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:09:09

244 - Most of Scotland is free from bigotry, But it exists in a few sad places where parents teach their children to hate.

BIGOTRY BEGINS AT HOME

230

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:11:33

252 - can't agree. The spiritual and religious sensibilites of children are just as important as tht of adults. Catholic schools respect this.

231

Cynical Peter,

Fife 14/01/2007 17:11:34

Call me cynical but this man was being asked to entertain. There are limits on what a person can say but these limits are surely that they should not incite violence...

Is making a joke about the Pope, the Moderator or someone from the General Synod inherently inciting violence? In that case we will need to scrub all jokes along the lines, "There was an Irishman, Englishman and Scotsman..."

232

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 17:13:48

#236 HCBM,

I'm afraid my reasoning in post #208 seems to have eluded you.

The phrase 'begins at home' ceases to have relevance when it is argued that we have a generational cycle and that the adults were raised in the same situation.

When you have a feedback loop, the concept of apportioning cause and effect to one particular part of that loop rather than the loop as a whole - mainly because it suits your argument - is meaningless.

233

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14/01/2007 17:16:04
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234

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 17:16:19

120pete paisley
quote>Were you ever a Boy Scout Wayne?
They say the "good scoutmaster never leaves his boys behind."
The fact are, presumably, what you say they are; you are wantonly naive and gullible<end quote

What on earth are you on about?
Do you speak English?
Is it the grammar and word order that gives you trouble?
This is what you get when you employ teachers because of what they believe rather than by their ability.

235

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14/01/2007 17:17:55
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236

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:19:39

Ally, that does not make sense.

Are children brainwashed at school?

No, they can choose not to be bigots and not to raise their kids to be bigots.

If they are involved in bigoted subcultures, this might be more difficult.

Sadly some families are subcultures of bigotry.

If everyone was raised to be open to others and to respect differences in society, bigotry would disappear completely.

Bigotry's not on the school curriculum.

I understand your reasoning perfectly. You are ascribing the wrong cause to the consequence of bigotry.

People mix in lots of other ways in society - if they retain their bigotry, that is a choice, not brainwashing from a school.

237

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 17:19:52

wayne bijlyeerheid # 262

I see you are having trouble following, or have you just run out of crack cocaine?

238

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 17:20:15

#242 Lumber Jack

Show me the proof of this?
How long ago is “years ago”?
If what you state is true why then aren’t you on here saying that these schools should be closed and all the kids who attend them should go to a non-denominational state school?

I'm afraid proof of the odd punch-up in rugby matches played a few decades ago may be difficult to come by. :)

I believe that Hutchie and St. Als ultimately combined their rugby teams for economic reasons.

239

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:21:39

AM 251,

no, you lie. I use the word fascist to describe fascists. Seems straightforward to me. Did you need to lie?

I'm calling for the FREEDOM to have MY children educated the way I choose.

Is that too much for you to bear?

240

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:22:48

Got to go - homework to do. Topic:

'How protestants are all evil' for Sister Maria Dolores . . . .

BIGOTRY BEGINS AT HOME

241

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 17:23:26

188
Fascism is the political wing of the catholic church
Name a non catholic fascist country.

242

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:23:27

Rossw 252

Quote:

"Children should not be idocrinated into any religion they should be allowed to choose when they are morally and philosophically capable."

That's your view, and you're entitled to it.

Now, let me ask you again:

I want a Catholic education for MY Catholic children in a Catholic School.

What's YOUR problem with how I educate MY children?

243

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14/01/2007 17:25:23
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244

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 17:26:39

wayne bijlyeerheid # 270

Scotland.

245

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:27:04

270

Scotland?

Plenty of fascists here today, seeking to suppress freedoms, and IMPOSE their views on others.

246

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 17:27:35

265
No it's you.
You'll have to explain about boy scouts as I understand that was what RCs belonged to, certainly not working class Protestants.
Was it a development of the priests not leaving the boys behind?

247

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14/01/2007 17:30:51
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248

,

14/01/2007 17:32:35
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249

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:32:48

276

Can you give us an English translation?

250

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 17:33:38

#264 HCBM,

My argument is that it is the mere separation of children at 5 that perpetuates a deep social divide in many parts of the west of Scotland and not 'brainwashing' by a school on its own.

I argue that if children mix freely from infancy then they will grow up having friends from 'the other side' of the divide and will find it difficult to hate each other.

But if they're brought up not knowing anyone from 'the other side' - in a situation where there is a deep division - then there may be problems.

I also don't accept the premise that all behaviour is simply copied from parents. In the absence of research into this issue, I would be very interested to know the extent of peer group pressure on an individual's attitudes regarding 'sectarianism'.

251

Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 17:34:21

266 Ally
So now we're getting close to the truth, it happened not last week or even last year but decades ago!!!
Similar to a lot of the posts on here people stating “facts” that they can’t prove or half truths from years ago.
To be honest I am fed up with this thread the discussion is going nowhere. Most of the posters are full of bigoted hatred and there is no constructive argue to most of the posts.
If you want proof that, there is a bigotry problem in Scotland, especially in the West of the contry, read the posts on here.

252

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:34:56

AM 238, no, you're just lost!

253

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:36:42

282,

and confirmation that Catholics could not contemplate giving up Catholic education as bigotry is so widespread and deep rooted as these posts show.

Stop the bigotry, guys, then we'll look at integrating the schools.

254

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:37:39

AM 284,

Did you lie or not?

255

Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 17:37:58

281
I don't know any Jews but I don't hate them.
I don't know any Muslims but I don't hate them.
I don't know any Russians but I don't hate them.
I don't know anyone from Renfrew but I don't hate them.

256

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:38:59

AM 284

This is your lie:

My second issue is your use of the word "fascist" to smear anyone not sharing your view.

257

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 17:39:44

279 You're changing the subject from what your posting suggested, ie priestly abuse is justified because there are other abusers betraying trust and doing the same thing.
280
You obviously have the same problem that pete paisley has, you've been taught by teachers employed for their faith and ethnicity rather than qualifications. That's why you can't understand English.

258

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 17:40:59

287
Look at Latin America.

259

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:41:19

287

Unsure of fascism, try a dictionary.

Starting points:

Suppression of freedoms
Imposing your views on others aginst their will.

260

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:42:34

AM 291,

then have I imagined this:


My second issue is your use of the word "fascist" to smear anyone not sharing your view.

261

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:44:07

Beat it Chairman - never called any one here a fascist.

262

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:45:17

wayne, yoor stoopit

263

BOJAN,

florida usa 14/01/2007 17:46:15

#256 it seems like all fascist dictators or presidents want to convert to catholicsm in your view,how were you able to come up with that conclusion??First of all if you are talking about President Bush, he is not i repeat not a catholic, he is a Protestant,get your facts right, peteeee!!!! #242 the dictcators i was talking about, and you know who i was talking about namely south american countries, you are going to the extremes when you mention Indonesia and idi amin... the only president we ever had who was catholic. is now dearly departed....

264

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:46:24

AM 296, I am well aware of the meaning of the word!

265

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 17:48:18

299
You're an intellectual giant.
I wish I'd had your education.
Aye.....right.

266

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 17:49:09

Can someone explain how a suggestion that every child should be educated in the same (non- religious) school (which is meant to teach academic subjects) is considered to be a "liar" and a "fascist"? I never suggested that Catholics should be sent to a Protestant school, just that parents could teach their children their religion.

267

grannie,

glasgow 14/01/2007 17:49:46

228..Chairman Gordon.

By your way of thinking, Why should a battle in Ireland be commorated in Scotland every 12 July ?

268

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 17:50:23

Chairman Gordon # 287

No one here is advocating the abolition of your legal rights. You seem to think it is alright for people in Scotland to have rights enshrined in law since 1918 to have them removed and you think that is an acceptable process.

"The 1918 Education Act in Scotland guaranteed the following rights to the Catholic community:

Catholic schools were to be fully funded by the State and open to inspection by Her Majesty’s Inspectors;

as public schools, Catholic schools were to be open to all, but provided primarily to serve the needs of the Catholic community;

the local education authority was to appoint, with the approval of the Church, a Supervisor for Religious Education in Catholic schools."
http://www.sces.uk.com/Catholic_Schools/Default.asp

If the Catholic community wants that to change then so be it. Otherwise it's not your business, so go and pick on some other group, try the Muslims, or are too much for you?
No one has yet answered where Donald Findlay learned his bigotry.

269

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:50:50

AM 294

My second issue is your use of the word "fascist" to smear anyone not sharing your view.

This was a lie.

270

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:53:30

JG 304

Suppression of parental choice.
Suppression of freedoms.
Imposing your views on others.

Will it be OK if I tell you how to educate YOUR children?

Should I impose CATHOLICISM on them?

Will that be OK?

Me thinks you might protest....

271

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:54:25

309,

So, if you erred, can i have your apology, pleaswe?

272

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:54:37

Wayne, yur no the sharpust nife in teh dror eh

273

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 17:55:29

305
What has Irish nationalism/republicanism got to do with Scotland?

274

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 17:56:14

304, Catholics want to have a Catholic education for their Catholic children at a Catholic School.

Now, what's YOUR problem?

275

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 17:58:33

Wayne, yur no withit - grannie's spot on with that cuestyun - see ol' charemun's posts abowt carphin

276

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 18:00:02

#310 Pex
My suggestion doesn't impose ANY religion on ANYONE - what's fascist about that? I'm not stopping you being a Catholic. And this is meant to be a comments forum - you are entitled to disagree with my views (as I am yours) but I'm not IMPOSING them on you. You can read them (or not) as is your choice.

My consideration was that by educating children(and only in academic matters) together from an early age, it might go at least some way to resolving the existing divisions that currently exist.

277

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:00:23

STILL, no-one can answer my question:

If I want to have a Catholic education for my Catholic children in a Catholic School, what's the problem?

I aint insisting on a Catholic education for YOUR children.

I'm not the kinda guy.

I wouldnt dream of imposing my view on you.

278

,

14/01/2007 18:00:41
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279

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:01:11

316, I'll ask you one more time to withdraw and apologise.

280

Just a person,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 18:01:24

No 149, they would be called maisonettes i suspect

I've never ever ever see so many postings on any one 'thing' before ever i think
We are in a bad way if we are sniping like this on a blog instead of behaing in a way that actually changes something in the world we live in

281

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:02:48

317,

it prevents my right to have my children educated as I choose.

My children. Mind yer own business.

Answer 318.

282

bertybhoy,

devon 14/01/2007 18:03:30

The man is a dinosaur, who belongs in the dark ages along with the rest of the redneck bigots from Ibrox.If a prominent Catholic lawyer started telling jokes about the royal family dying, or soldiers getting shot in Ireland we would never hear the end of it.

283

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:04:18

317,

if separate education troubles you:

1/ any evidence that it causes probs?

2/ educate all at Catholic Schools

284

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 18:05:26

321 = Thought is action. Thinking is a moral act.

It's good to challenge the dying remnants of bigotry and speed their demise.

Ignorant bigoted violent fools who make Scotland an embarrasment.

I do plenty of other stuff.

285

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 18:06:23

good examples and very true berty.

286

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 18:07:06

wayne, canny handle it wee man?

287

JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 18:12:12

#323 Pex
The basis of this comments board was regarding the remarks made by Donald Findlay 2 years ago and whether or not he was a bigot. Clearly some people think he is and there were comments subsquently made about many things (including Rangers/Cetlic etc.)

I can see the divisions in the two cultures and made a suggestion which you obviously disagree with. It may well not be a solution, but if no-one tries anything at all we'll just be here 10 years from now maybe talking about Donald as he makes a speech in the local OAP Home.

Nothing I have said, however makes me a fascist!!!

288

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 18:13:53

Pex Vobascum # 323

Doing away with faith schools is top of the agenda for an independent Scotland. They will not admit it openly though. They will use any and every argument in obfuscation of that point. If that is not the case let someone from the secessionista party spell that out in words of one syllable.
"The abolition of faith schools is not an issue and will never be, in an independent Scotland." I would be happy with those words. Until then, watch out.

289

,

14/01/2007 18:15:01
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290

mildred,

philadelphia PA USA 14/01/2007 18:16:26

99.9999% of humans are bigoted about someone or something. It's in their heads and hearts. Can't wipe that out by decree. What can be legislated is discrimination in specific areas: employment, housing, schooling,and even food (you can specify what food you want on airlines in accordance with religious or belief systems). All your comments indicate a provincial view of "religion". How do y'all feel about the Bahais, Hari Krishnas, Buddhists, Seventh Day Adventists,Scientology, Hindu (now there's a beauty), Druid, Voodoo, Mormon,etc.etc.? That's only a small sampling of of the choices we have in the US. Our gifted comedians make hay about the more obvious ones, and it can really be hysterical. The problem is when terribly stupid people try to get into the act: then there's the rancid stink of a rotting and rotten hate filled rant. That's where the line is drawn. Hate is not tolerable and has to be smacked down. On the other hand, I absolutely hate dumb people.

291

,

14/01/2007 18:17:36
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292

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:17:41

STILL, no-one can answer my question:

If I want to have a Catholic education for my Catholic children in a Catholic School, what's the problem?

I aint insisting on a Catholic education for YOUR children.

I'm not the kinda guy.

I wouldnt dream of imposing my view on you.

293

Just a person,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 18:18:36

327, we all think, some of us more demented than others, thinking isn't moral it just happens, we can all think what we like, sometimes even decent folk get mad thoughts, actions and behaviours are a conscious choice
so consciously doing one thing or another through choice, i won't respond to any more postings refering to me but will know doubt want to see how you all get on

294

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:21:38

mildred 333

why do you hate people who cannot speak?

295

,

14/01/2007 18:25:15
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296

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:26:36

AM 338, if you dont have a problem with 335, then I dont have a problem with you.

297

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:27:39

Re Donald Findlay:

Hallo! Hallo! You ARE a Silly Boy!

298

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 18:28:09

#331 Pete,

So what you're really saying is that you want a guarantee that no-one in an independent Scotland will be allowed to question the existence of state-funded denominational schools and that this guarantee should exist for all time?

In fact, you'd rather censor debate on this issue altogether, wouldn't you?


Earlier on you wished to put an end to Findlay's legal career simply because you disagreed with his views.

You have already scoffed at the notion of free speech.

And yet you appeal to someone whose sole means of arguing his point is to scream 'fascist' at every opportunity.

Well, from my perspective it is pretty clear who the real 'fascists' are.

299

,

14/01/2007 18:29:57
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300

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:30:04

JG 330,

any other sugestions?

How about closing down the Orange Order?

What d'you reckon?

301

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:34:51

JG 330

Just had another idea....

How about closing all Marks & Spencers stores in Scotland?

or

We could close all florists in Scotland?

302

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 18:36:47

Ally, who are the real facists?

303

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:37:49

Ally 342

Is reading not your strong point?

Your assertion that my "whose sole means of arguing his point is to scream 'fascist' at every opportunity." is plainly a lie, and you should apologise.

Look again, I have raised several arguments in favour of freedom in Scotland, and many of them have not been aswered by the fascists as they CANNOT answer them.

304

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 18:41:25

AM 346, you dont need to understand my position.

We agree on my right to have a Catholic education for my children.

305

,

14/01/2007 18:42:44
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306

Captain Harry,

14/01/2007 18:51:29

How on earth did a debate on the targetting of Donald Findlay by certain elements in the Scottish media turn into a ridiculous slanging match on seperate schooling?

Pex, your posts have become ignorant and tedious to read. Quite simply, religious schooling is preposterously out of date and belongs in the middle ages when people still believed in fairies and goblins. It perpetuates tribalism especially in the west of Scotland where the schools encourage a chip on the shoulder, 'everyone's against us' mentality. The fact that I, as a tax payer have to finance this lunacy appalls me.

I slipped through the vetting and worked in two RC schools in Glasgow and witnessed bigotry ranging from sectarian songs being encouraged by Celtic supporting teachers on the day of evening matches to a head teacher asking a pupil he'd caught vandalising a wall if he was now acting like 'those animals down the road' (the non-denom school). Incidents such as these are not exactly going to promote harmony, are they?

The time has come for Scottish politicians to stop bending over to the catholic church and put an end to 'faith' schools. Religion should be kept to the church and home and leave schools to promote knowledge and enlightenment not silly ghost stories from a scary old book written by maniacs who'd spent too much time in the sun.

307

Joemac,

Motherwell 14/01/2007 18:55:41

QC

Quaintly Comedic?
Quite Crass?
Quotably Contentious?
Quietly Canvassing?
Querulous Character?
Quantifiably Certifiable?

308

Captain Harry,

14/01/2007 18:56:43

Another thing, I see the word fascist being banded about a lot in this argument. Is it now accepted as a fact that if you disagree with segregated schooling you're automatically a fascist?

Makes as much sense as our idiot First Minister having a forum on sectarianism but leaving the schools off the agenda as to bring them up would be sectarian.

309

,

14/01/2007 19:01:28
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310

,

14/01/2007 19:01:48
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311

,

14/01/2007 19:04:37
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312

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 19:06:43

AM # 354

You can never say "No surrender" again if you quit now you know.

313

,

14/01/2007 19:12:24
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314

Captain Harry,

14/01/2007 19:15:35

Pete 355,

knock yourself out with your self-funded churches with their declining attendances as the world grows up, we big bad 'protestants' have no intention of closing them in spite of your stereotypical bleatings. Merging schools isn't anti-catholic, it's just common sense.

That book with the pop pictures you refer to sounds like it could be a whole lot better than the one you guys base your lives on.

315

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 19:15:40

AM # 361

I am never confounded by tautologies. I have read all of your tedious posts today. I have seen nothing that would induce me to change my opinion, uncle Tom.

316

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 19:18:29

Captain Harry # 363

Your credibility was shot when you stated "I slipped through the vetting and worked in two RC schools in Glasgow." You convicted yourself then as a liar, nothing you can say from then is relevant.

317

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 14/01/2007 19:18:44

Great thing this forum.

#351 well said. I'm we have " old firm" supporters clubs here in Vancouver. I have been to both and as a Scot really find the behaviour incredible.

The education thing is a funny one, we have a large phillipino community here. Their children represent a significant percentage of St Patrick's catholic school.
The original catholics in the community Irish/Polish etc very much belittle these new comers.

Let's not be too hard on Scotland, most countries have warts,around religion, race, or economics.

Did Dave Allan the comedian not make us all laugh in the 70's with his jokes about the pope mobile etc. Lighten up..live a little, travel more ( and not the beaches of Spain) A private club is a private club...

The real division in the world is not religion, my belief is it is simply money, and usually the lack of it...no accident different religions target poor regions to spread their wares.

C'mon Scotland.

318

Sambo,

The deep south 14/01/2007 19:20:18

You all need to get a life. All this PC bullsh*t we have now because our leaders are too thin skinned has gotten to the point that to crack a joke about an ethnic group or some religion gets you in serious trouble. Oh by the way did you know it's ok to date a nun but don't get into the habit.

319

,

14/01/2007 19:24:28
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320

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 19:25:23

Captain, you couldn't close them even if you wanted to.

Who are the 'we' you refer to when you say 'big bad protestants'.

Most bigots are not religious - just thicko thugs or paranoid weirdos like Donald.

Most protestants read the same book as Catholics - you just stick to your pop book.

321

,

14/01/2007 19:27:14
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322

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 19:27:27

Harry 351

If I want to have a Catholic education for my Catholic children in a Catholic School, what's the problem?

I aint insisting on a Catholic education for YOUR children.

I'm not the kinda guy.

I wouldnt dream of imposing my view on you.

323

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 19:28:58

Stu = waste of space

324

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 19:30:28

Stu 370, the sipurating sores of your cancer are stinking.

Your posts - and the posts of many others here - serve well to confirm to all decent Catholics that the day we can contemplate integrated education are still far away.

There's still too much bigotry to even contemplate it.

Sort out your bigotry, guys, then we'll consider integrating with you.

325

,

14/01/2007 19:31:12
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326

Brian,

14/01/2007 19:32:53

In Scotland the bigots are obsessed with RC schools. It is a sad little 'nation' deeply ensconced in its anti-Catholic culture. They don't care what the world thinks of them.

http://www.sundayherald.com/life/people/display.var.11220...

The Catholic community, mainly of Irish descent, are not only the largest minority and the first to arrive on these shores, but are the only minority in Scotland yet to given official recognition. This shows the extent of hostility against Irish -descended Catholics.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1121...

327

Brian,

14/01/2007 19:36:54

re 375 Sunday Herald, click LIFE and go to Cardinal O'Brien's article.

328

THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 19:37:30

Donald Findlay is a buffoon, if not a dangerous buffoon. A man in his position should be very careful about what he "jokes" about. We all remember him singing about being up to his knees in Fenian blood while Vice-Chairman of Rangers. Harmless community sing-song? Not when you are representing Rangers. Remember this is the man who, while occupying the same position, defended the murderer of a young Celtic fan whose only offence was to be wearing a Celtic top outside Bridgeton train station.

How can the public have any confidence in a QC who repeatedly demonstrates such a staggering lack of judgement?

#351 You asked why this thread degenerated into a tedious argument about separate schooling. That's because whenever this paper runs a story about sectarianism in Scotland, the same few posters who claim to be paragons of enlightenment and tolerance, come on here making anti-Catholic comments and calling for the closure of Catholic schools because, "that'll stop bigotry."

Pex, you're wasting your time arguing with this lot, best just to not rise to their bait. It only allows them to hijack the thread to suit their own agenda.

329

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 19:46:38

THE James 377

Aye, you're probably right.

How sad to see confirmation that rabid anti Catholic bigotry is alive and well in Scotland in 2007.

330

StuYoung,

glasgow 14/01/2007 19:49:42

Pex VobaSCUM

I have interacted with many Catholics Pax .... admittedly all females over the age of consent,(unlike your clergy), and these ladies were firm believers in the misogynist RC clergy keeping their noses out of their private lives.

But to finish on a serious note, when Scotland becomes independent and the SNP folds and the inevitable political realignment takes place ... a party will emerge opposed to faith schools of any type, it will triumph and assholes like you can bugger off to Northern Ireland and continue your martrydom there.

I say Northern rather than Southern Ireland, because having lived in the South, the southern Irish are drifting away from Catholicism and the RC church there in much the same was as Scottish Protestants are falling away from the Church of Scotland here. You and your kind are an ever increasing minority, welcome I suspect neither here nor there.

Goodnight.

331

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia,Canada 14/01/2007 19:51:30

Yes ..PEACE AND BROTHERHOOD..Love and understanding..PREACHED BY ALL RELIGIONS
(Be it Christian, Muslem , Jewish ,whatever.)

PRACTICED BY NONE!!!!

332

Eddie,

14/01/2007 19:58:29

Is being a bigot an offence?

333

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 20:04:34

Stu 379,

if you've lived there, you should surely know that there's no such country as Southern Ireland.

Oh, and you should also learn that Catholicism is the biggest religionh in the world with over 1000 million members. Fading fast, eh?

334

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 20:06:09

381: if you're seeking perfection, you'll be disappointed in members of all faiths and those with none.

335

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 20:08:41

Hugh 380

"No matter: even those who are paid from the public purse have private lives."

Surely, they dont!

336

THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 20:14:19

The other recurring theme of these threads is the appearance of the morally and intellectually superior atheist. They make no relevant contribution to the subject matter (in this case Donald Findlay's latest faux pas). They just want to let us all know how stupid people of faith are in comparison to them.

Their god, Richard Dawkins, has apparently shown conclusively that God does not exist. So the majority of the world's population (believers), should just get used to it!

337

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 20:15:14

come on hugh. . . .

stu, very moronic. Boring. Predictable. Crap jokes. Badly informed. Insulting.

338

Beverly,

Arcadia 14/01/2007 20:18:09

Whatever happened to lively debate amongst free men and women? Even disagreements? Even ... hurt feelings??

I can't believe we've gotten to the point where so-called rational adults believe they have to pass laws every time someone's feelings get hurt.

Do we really need the government to be our NURSERYMAID and outlaw everything they decide is "Thoughtcrime"?

Haul up your socks and deal with it, or live as slaves.

339

,

14/01/2007 20:21:26
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340

mick3,

Minnesota 14/01/2007 20:21:38

Religion is merely modern mythology, requiring, indeed rewarding, the abandonment of one's intelligence and accepting absurdities as fact. They call it faith, rather than delusion. And the rest of us are expected to "respect others' religions" as if those religions haven't affected the laws of the nations and the mores of the community in ways extremely detrimental to the rest of us.

It's time for religion to go. Intentional ignorance can no longer be considered virtue. It's time for secular humanism to consider the existence of a kind of god energy that doesn't require endless lobbying (prayer) and praise (worship, what a concept)..... and of course a male mind and body.

341

THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 20:22:09

Hugh #387,

Donald Findlay, as a QC, is a public figure. As such, he should show better judgement. Did he think for a minute how it would be perceived by the public if his karaoke efforts were made known? If not he should have.

Remember in his capacity as a QC, and while Vice-Chairman of Rangers, he defended in court a sectarian murderer. I'm not for a minute suggesting that said sectarian murderer was not entitled to a defence lawyer, but again, should Findlay, in his position, have taken on the case?

Put these three incidents together - singing a song exulting in being up to your knees in Fenian blood, and defending someone who put that into practise. Then the joking in poor taste about the death of the Pope. Doesn't look good does it?

Maybe he is not a bigot, but he is a disgrace to the legal profession.

342

Thommo,

14/01/2007 20:24:28

"Remember this is the man who, while occupying the same position, defended the murderer of a young Celtic fan". (#377)

Donald Findlay would have taken that case under the "cab rank" system. He has defended all sorts of people, from all sorts of backgrounds, on all sorts of offences. It's his job - and a valuable one to society it is too.

343

jj,

14/01/2007 20:27:38

Every photo of this chap over the years shows his hair as darker and not greyer. How does he do it?

344

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 20:30:18

Good luck mick, what a great idea.

Don't fancy your chances of converting everyone though.

Keep up the good work.

345

THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 20:33:51

394,

So it was just a co-incidence that Findlay was the next in line? He should have passed the case on to the next QC in line. In his position he should not have touched it.

Were you happy to see your Vice-Chairman defend that particular sectarian murderer? If I was a Rangers fan I would have found it excruciatingly embarrassing.

346

,

14/01/2007 20:42:15
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347

Joemac,

Motherwell 14/01/2007 20:42:22

1000 million Catholics, eh? Must be Mass produced.

348

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 20:44:13

As far as I can see, Donald Findlay has been accused of the supposedly heinous offence of telling a couple of jokes at a gathering of Rangers fans in Larne two years ago. At least one of these jokes has been aired on radio, with no apparent offence being taken, while the other remains as yet unclear. This is not 'news' - it was reported in a tabloid newspaper two years ago.

It emerges that Findlay was also overtly critical of the Roman Catholic Church in a conversation with an author. Is this now a crime? If so, one would expect to see many comedians and the National Secular Society among others in the dock.

There is a grave danger that the right to freedom of speech in Scotland now applies only with the proviso that certain vociferous - and influential - minorities are not offended in any way.

Is Findlay simply being judged because of his past reputation and not on what he is being accused of in the article above? He has already paid the penalty in personal and career terms for his behaviour in 1999.

We are forever being told by the politically correct brigade that we should not be 'judgmental about acts between consenting adults that take place behind closed doors'. It would appear that there is at least one glaring exception to this particular maxim in McConnell's Scotland!

349

,

14/01/2007 20:46:24
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350

Pex Vobascum,

UK 14/01/2007 20:49:15

Thanks WW 399.

Faith School education is strong all over the UK.

In England & Wales, 16 of the Top 20 Primary Schools is a faith School (Source: The Times - Parent Power)

351

Bobby,

Govan 14/01/2007 20:50:58

#397 Great moraliing there. Should Celtic fans feel embaressed about the covering up of child abuse that went on there? Should those taking offence at things the QC may have said or done not be more concerned with the moral fibre of their own church and the epedemic of child abuse within it?

People in glass houses and all that.

352

Ronnie McCulley,

Tennessee 14/01/2007 20:54:54

Were is free speech, must someone watch everything we says.The nation should be proud Findly can say what he said if he can.Freedom cost?

353

THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 20:57:09

Bobby,

A defence worthy of the great Findlay himself! Try to keep it relevant.

354

Bobby,

Govan 14/01/2007 21:00:14

#399 If they are among the best educated why in another article in this paper are they complaining about making up so many of the prison population and living in the poorest areas.

The Herald 15th December 2006

This table shows the best performing schools in Scotland, by percentage of pupils in fourth year going on to get five or more Highers at A to C in fifth year:

Best performing state schools:
39% – Jordanhill, Glasgow
33% – Cults Academy, Aberdeen
32% – St Ninian's High, East Renfrewshire
31% – Mearns Castle, East Renfrewshire
27% – Balerno High, Edinburgh;
Gryffe High, Renfrewshire.
26% – Banchory Academy, Aberdeenshire
25% – Largs Academy, North Ayrshire
25% – Williamwood High, East Renfrewshire
23% – Aberdeen Grammar;
Dunblane High, Stirling;
Fortrose Academy, Highland;
Kinross High, Perth & Kinross;
Linlithgow Academy, West Lothian;
Wallace Hall Academy, Dumfries & Galloway

355

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 21:01:16

#402

Why should Findlay's views on the Roman Catholic Church impinge upon his professional role in defending clients who happen to be Roman Catholics?

356

Bobby,

Govan 14/01/2007 21:02:21

# 406 You tell me to keep it relevant!!!!

Jeez do you get irony in any way what so ever?

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,

14/01/2007 21:04:13
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THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 21:08:03

Bobby,

Is this thread not about Donald Findlay? You seem to think it is about the shortcomings of Catholics, the Catholic Church and Celtic Football Club.

I just checked the article again, and yes, it IS about Donald Findlay. Like I said, try to keep it relevant. Defend Findlay if you wish, but so far, you haven't.

359

Boberto,

14/01/2007 21:10:10

#402, it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to express disagreement with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Curch.

Or the Church of Scotland. Or any other Church.

360

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 21:12:33

408 - because he is supposed to be a servant of the law - of truth - not of prejudice and bigotry.

You could not have faith in a man like that if you were Catholic I'm afraid.

361

Captain Harry,

Dreamtime 14/01/2007 21:14:50

Pete, if you're still around, my insult throwing friend, I must've been dreaming for a few years then, eh? I leak a few unpalatable truths about denominational schools and you call me a liar. Call me it a few more times why don't you, repeat a lie often enough and all that.

McGhee, so I read the same bible as catholics do I? Probably, if I were a christian however the quotes around 'big bad protestants' were there for a reason. You don't have to be christian to disapprove of apartheid education.

Oh, and yeah, let's hound Findlay out of any position because you don't happen to agree with his beliefs. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, eh?

362

,

14/01/2007 21:20:40
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JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 21:20:59

#414 Captain Harry
And whatever you do don't say anything that is remotely opposed to old Vex - in no time at all you'll be braned a fascist and a liar!

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,

14/01/2007 21:21:55
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,

14/01/2007 21:27:22
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Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 21:28:00

should read don't think he is fit for purpose of course

367

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 21:30:01

Neither the Cardinal nor the Pope sang about wading in the blood of anyone.

And they are not practicing lawyers.

you are running out of arguments Ally.

Why are you so attached to this anti catholic goose chase you are obviously on?

368

THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 21:35:07

Ally,

You could say that if you liked. Everyone is entitled to their opinion after all, so long as it is not incompatible with the position in society they hold.

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14/01/2007 21:35:14
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Bobby,

Govan 14/01/2007 21:36:01

# 411
You brought rangers fans into it and said they should be embaressed becase the guy was doing his job, I merely pointed out that I find it strange that you and many others take outrage at mere words yet hae a blind spot for the physcal misdeeds of the church you are taking offence on behalf of.

If Rangers fans should feel embaressed about it then surely it is relevant to ask if fans of another club, the one you suport, feel uncomfortable at the things done by their directors and it was not even part of their job.

If you are going to moralise on findlay and what he said then surely you should be doing it from a strong moral standpoint.

371

,

14/01/2007 21:36:11
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,

14/01/2007 21:38:54
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373

Boberto,

14/01/2007 21:39:51

James, the sectarian song is not an issue in the current case. Findlay was punished for that in a variety of ways. You have to wonder how often some people would like a man to be ounished for singing a nasty song at a private do. Him taking one particular case among hundreds of many sorts is also not an issue. Theological differences, on the other hand, are currently at issue. The issue of making jokes about various religious figures has been dealt with at length above.

374

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 21:41:28

#420 HCBM,

No, they are not practising lawyers, but they hold (or held in the case of Winning) positions of great authority in the RC Church. Should their views not be scrutinised to a similar degree as Findlay's clearly are, or do they have a 'get-out clause'?

I am not on any 'goose chase'. I am simply sickened by the double standards that seem to be applied by yourself and others and how 'sectarianism' is continually portrayed as a one-way street.

Am I not allowed to take offence at the presence of several Celtic players, ex-players, manager and director at a function in Letterkenny in a hotel run by an IRA man and at which the praises of the IRA were sung? Was this not a far more serious business than what Findlay is being accused of in Larne?

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14/01/2007 21:43:48
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Unbending Atheist,

14/01/2007 21:52:01

You should all read the print version of today's SOS. There is a marvelous little extra article on this page about Tom Minogue's admirable petition to the Parliament about the prependerence of Catholic prisoners in Scottish prisons. On one front after another, the real crusaders for a pluralist Scotland are winning, and winning, and winning...

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14/01/2007 21:53:41
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,

14/01/2007 21:55:03
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Hair Care Baby McGhee,

14/01/2007 21:55:29

428 - yeah, they all gave up apart from Ally, he's quite persistent.

380

Pacific-buoy,

Vancouver Island. 14/01/2007 21:57:16

...and now the rest of the story!
Its goals that count!!

See-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOM1k4oLGJU

381

Captain Harry,

Dreamtime 14/01/2007 22:02:22

Baby, just call me a cynical old observer. My wee stories were examples of why our children shouldn't be seperated by religion in places of learning.

Poor old Findlay, perhaps if he wasn't a Rangers supporting, protestant, tory, his 'crimes' would've been swept under the carpet and forgotten by now?

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14/01/2007 22:05:18
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383

babba,

black sheep dundee 14/01/2007 22:09:27

it was a joke so what i was brought up a catholic and i am not offended on saying i do not do religon now
the worlds going mad.
it seem people focous on differences instead of what we have in common.
where is the love

384

NorT,

Edinburgh 14/01/2007 22:11:02

So what if he does tell sectarian jokes. If there were no Catholic schools and they were all integrated then they may have something to complain about. They bring it on themselves.

385

Boberto,

14/01/2007 22:13:00

James, (#431) you misunderstand or misrepresent the current case against Findlay. Also, you don't understand the legal system under which Findlay took that particular case all those years ago. I have no doubt Donald Findlay will continue to practise law, despite the relentless agenda-peddling of yourself and others.

386

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 22:13:34

#429

And you take this character Minogue seriously?

A guy who when being prosecuted for theft demanded whether the sheriff was a freemason?

That sheriff being a female.

You couldn't make it up! :)

387

Pilrig,

14/01/2007 22:15:38

435# Ally Scott - you arenae the huddie who played for Rangers then Hibs ?

388

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14/01/2007 22:16:24
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THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 22:16:48

Ally,

Private citizens, within reason, have the right to freedom of speech. Public figures on the other hand, have greater responsibilities thrust upon them. By accepting public office, they accept those limitations on their words and deeds.

They still have the same freedoms of speech as private citizens (no-one has so far advocated Findlay should be prosecuted under anti-sectarian laws), but they accept that their position precludes them from airing publicly any unacceptable views they may privately hold. This is crucial to them enjoying the confidence of the people, without which their position is compromised and may be untenable.

Donald Findlay is a public figure who over the past seven or eight years has alienated a large section of the population, and has thus proven his unsuitability to hold his public position.

390

SILVANA,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 22:25:42

What a waste of good education.

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14/01/2007 22:34:27
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THE James,

Lincoln 14/01/2007 22:36:12

Hugh,

No MP would be able to keep his job if he acted like Donald Findlay.

You are confusing his views on Catholicism with his views on Catholics.

393

Faye,

Scotland 14/01/2007 22:51:47

I feel sorry for the guy, afterall he was at a private club enjoying himself with his own kind and some PC bureaucrat or squawk starts to try and gag him.

Heavens, if none of us can say what we want to say we'd be as well asking the Scottish Executive if its okay to open our mouths. Stalag 13 here we come!

As for an example to young solicitors, the only example the public needs is a solicitor who charges a reasonable rate rather than the rip off rates for medicore advice. Who bothers about solicitors these days. A necessary evil but people should channel their efforts in trying to get fees reduced.

Go on Sir - say what you want. What next? Will people be out in the streets baying for your blood?


Maybe some people might even want to burn some flags and put a bounty on yer heid.

Let them raffle themselves. Its a free country.

Enjoy yourself at your private parties. Nuff said.

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14/01/2007 22:56:25
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karenw,

London 14/01/2007 23:08:09

If Catholics belive that they are being persecuted (and from what i have read this does not seem to be the case), why don't they go and live in a Catholic country?

There is little point in playing the victim and constantly screaming about sectarianism every time a person makes any criticism or adverse comment about the Romish religion. Freedom of speech is still a right.

This just seems like a vengeful attack on a prominent Protestant.

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karenw,

London 14/01/2007 23:15:11

450# James
Your comments are petty. If someone does not want to celebrate their birthday on St Patricks Day, so what?? Birthdays are private matters.

No One has to be seen "not to be bigotted". The only requirement is that Finlay should not cause public offence. He has not done that. His remarks were made at private events and in teh context of being jokes.

This case is an example of RCs trying to stir up sectarianism.I am sure Finlay will wn his case.

397

Big eejit,

14/01/2007 23:25:32

The RC hierarchy in Scotland recently admitted that educational segregation helped perpetuate sectarian division in Scotland, BUT that it was a price worth paying.

Why is freedom of speech such a problem for the MOPEs, who are out in force today?

Send all the weans to school together, then let the imams, priests and witchdoctors of choice fill their heads with nonsense