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QCs warn Scots justice in crisis

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Published Date:
18 February 2007
SCOTLAND'S most senior lawyers have issued a blistering warning that confidence in the country's criminal justice system is in danger of draining away following the Shirley McKie fingerprint scandal.
The 600-year-old Faculty of Advocates, which represents Scotland's QCs, said there was now a crisis of confidence in forensic experts, with the impression that their work was "unprofessional", "unreasonable" and "unacceptable".

The Faculty is demanding ministers agree to a full public inquiry into the matter, to root out bad practice and restore confidence in the courts.

The comments, the first the full Faculty has made since the McKie affair began, will provoke fresh concern over dozens of convictions in Scotland where fingerprint evidence has been used to send people to jail.

Last week, a report by a Scottish Parliament committee concluded there remained "significant weaknesses" in the way fingerprints were assessed. Now, the QCs say they fear many convictions based on fingerprint evidence may be unsafe and are warning the affair will trigger a deluge of appeals.

The latest turn of events comes a full 10 years after McKie, a former Strathclyde police officer, was wrongly accused of having visited a murder scene in 1997 after a print found near the body was mistakenly identified as hers.

She was subsequently charged for committing perjury after denying in court that the print was hers. Last year, after being acquitted, she was awarded £750,000 in damages by ministers who conceded there had been an "honest mistake". The affair snowballed after a secret report by police chiefs concluded there had been a "criminal cover-up" to frame McKie in the case.

MSPs said last week it was not appropriate for them to pass judgment on any criminality involved. However, the report has opened fresh concern about the general levels of competence within the service.

The Faculty of Advocates' comments were made to the Justice 1 Committee but were only published for the first time last week.

On the McKie case, vice-dean Valerie Stacey QC declares: "The issue is that some evidence and circumstances suggest that this is not a dispute between experts on whether or not a print matches, but rather suggests that the work of the SCRO [Scottish Criminal Records Office] is not only unprofessional but unreasonable or unacceptable."

She adds: "In this context, the Faculty is very concerned at the risk of a lack of confidence in expert evidence of fingerprint identification, forensic evidence generally and indeed the criminal justice system as a whole. It is our view that in order to restore confidence and move on from these events a public inquiry is necessary."

The Faculty is scathing of evidence from SCRO officers during the parliamentary inquiry, when it was admitted that experts would not tell outsiders when there had been a dispute among them about a print. Instead, defence counsels have been told to accept prints as 100% bona fide.

Stacey concludes: "Without a full inquiry into these events, then defence challenges are now likely to be made or attempted [into fingerprint evidence] as a matter of course."

Maggie Scott, former chair of the Faculty of Advocates Criminal Bar Association added: "They will have great difficulty in getting convictions on fingerprint evidence now because of the awareness in the public that it isn't a science."

Campaigners said the claims by the Faculty showed the case had far greater implications over and above the details of the McKie case. Her father, Iain McKie, said: "In our case, there were two wrong fingerprints. We are asked to believe that there were no other mistakes in any other case apart from that.

"I think we should be reviewing every fingerprint case over the last 20 to 30 years."

Former SNP MSP Mike Russell, who has campaigned on behalf of the McKie family, added: "It strains credulity to suggest that this is a single case. None of the issues from the Shirley McKie case have been cleared up. The truth is that politicians, prosecutors and police are scared and afraid of decisions being questioned."

But ministers have defended their stance, saying checks were made on the SCRO to find whether there was a systematic failure. The inquiries concluded that all other identifications the SCRO had processed in the year before the McKie case were correct. They also point out that there have been only two cases in the past 10 years where a case has had to be dropped by the Crown because of unsafe fingerprint evidence.

The fresh row comes as it emerged the four fingerprint experts at the centre of the affair may be due for a lucrative severance payment next month. Hugh Macpherson, Fiona McBride, Anthony McKenna and Charles Stewart originally identified McKie in 1997, and defended their case in front of MSPs last year.

Union representatives say negotiations are under way for a severance deal between them and the newly-formed Scottish Police Services Authority, which takes over the fingerprint service on April 1.

A Unison spokeswoman said: "It is impossible for anybody to understand the stress they have been under."

She added: "We will support them if they don't leave. If they do leave, it will be through their own choice."

Justice Minister Cathy Jamieson said she would give "careful consideration" to the committee's findings.

"In doing so, I want to re-state my clear commitment to ensuring that the Scottish Fingerprint Service provides a world-class service," she added.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 February 2007 11:34 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Legal Issues
 
1

Mev Brown,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 00:29:55

I think the problem is more to do with why did Cathy Jamieson and her New Labour colleagues gone to such lengths to avoid a public enquiry?

There has to be a reason.

And will the call for a public enquiry from the Faculty of Advocates make any difference?

I suspect the more immediate problem, for New Labour, will be a possible change in administration and that could well bring about just such a public enquiry, regardless of the best efforts of New Labour to prevent it at all costs.

Watch this space: www.nhsfirst.org.uk

2

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 00:38:46

Comment@1 Mev, hi mate.....the real objective behind this.......is to get the public at large to embrace RFID enslavement and 24/7 tracking of your movements....to be seen as the only solution........DO NOT FALL FOR IT :)

3

Wisnaeme,

Sent to Coventry. 18/02/2007 00:58:37

Confidence in whit? How can anyone have confidence or respect for it.

Remember Dunblane, Lockerbie and so called inquiries like the building costs and proceedures involved in the Scottish Parliament building fiasco?

Too many folk with self interests involved= too many questions remaining unanswered.

Hasn't it always been thus. They talk the talk of transparency and openness but they most certainly don't walk the walk.

4

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 01:23:40

A situation entirely of their own making.

They need look no further than their restriction of access to courts, their greed of charging high fees for poor work, their policy on legal aid (striking for more taxpayers money, when they had actually been getting more all along), discrimination against the client & hounding, even, persecution of those who catch them out on charges of wrongdoing or worse .... and lets not forget keeping legislation off the books which they simply don't want.

... and while the legal profession rant on about the New Labour dictatorship (almost comical), they have almist enslaved Scots Law to their own dictatorship, resisting any change at the threat of Court action, case boycotts & attempts to undermine just about anyone who proposes such change.

If thats Scots Law - no one no one has confidence in it.

5

Richard IV,

Brisbane,Australia. 18/02/2007 02:02:31

Agree with #3, As soon as the Faculty OF Advocates talk about a "Public Enquiry", you can be sure of two things: 1 The public wont be involved. An 2 Lines of inquiry that may expose the Legal profession for what it is,won't see the light of day! Anyone "Brave" enough to attempt this gets ostracised an accused of being a "Whistleblower"!

6

Dave M,

18/02/2007 03:50:33

"In doing so, I want to re-state my clear commitment to ensuring that the Scottish Fingerprint Service provides a world-class service," she added.

Commitment.

What does that mean?

I'm committed to playing for Scotland at the next World Cup and no one is going to stop me.

I've even bought some new boots and been on a jog.

I'll be 47 next World Cup.

Does anyone believe a word that comes out of Cathy Jamieson's mouth?

7

Guga,

Rockall 18/02/2007 04:24:37

"a secret report by police chiefs concluded there had been a 'criminal cover-up' to frame McKie in the case."

What has happened about this criminal cover-up? Has there been any follow up, or anyone charged or prosecuted? If not, why not?

Now the "experts at the centre of the affair may be due for a lucrative severance payment next month".

Why are they being given a lucrative severance payment? What is going on?

It is well past time that this whole affair was brought out into the open, and the full details made available to the public. Cathy Jamieson has fallen down on the job, again. She is a walking disaster are looking for a place to happen.

8

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 18/02/2007 05:17:19

Oh Dear!
Another old story recycled.

9

AndyBhoy,

Vancouver Canada 18/02/2007 07:05:39

The affair snowballed after a secret report by police chiefs concluded there had been a "criminal cover-up" to frame McKie in the case.

Every person involved in this is paid from the public purse. Nothing should be secret.

I strongly feel the public has been let down by the press- print & TV - on this story by a total failure to call elected representatives to account on this. If the press continue to chicken out on calling out the right of citizens to know what is being done in their name and done with their money on this issue (and a host of others) because of the comfortable symbiotic clique that exists in Scotland at present amongst the coos-arsred parliament that currently sits in Edinburgh, the legal establishment, and the journalists that supposedly keep a beady eye on the other two - then who can the be trusted to guard our rights? I would say none of the above. God help Scotland if this was still the case should the populace ever choose independence.

I voted Yes Yes for a Scottish parliament with tax raising powers. I was promised a new vision of politics and a new way of politicians doing things. What did I get ? Well the first Yes Yes I heard from our MSPs was when they voted to give themselves 17 weeks holidays and a pay rise. I couldn't quite see how "performance related pay" that was being rammed down everyone else's throat applied to this. Then I realised didn't George Orwell warn us about this at the end of "Animal Farm"? " Don't matter what you peasants do or think - we'll keep on giving you the same old p*sh in a different shaped bottle !"

ps I'm not suggesting Canadian politicians, press , and legal establishment are any better - it's just that some of the press at least don't seem quite so bad .
pps Sorry for a very long sentence.

10

bill mccall,

sydney 18/02/2007 07:45:35

why blame the poor, probably underfunded and resource poverished, forensic services.

There is an overall failure of public service performance in almost every branch of service to the public. Not only in UK.

This is probably due to poor education standards, pathetic recruitment policies, loss of discipline in almost every walk of life; but above all the atrocious quality of general responsibility for anything that can be asociated with progressive socialisation of our lives! They just have no idea, they are poorly prepared for reality and thoroughly believe that anyone who votes Labour deserves a chance at anything.

Looking for the cause of troubles in the UK and Scotland in particular? Simply look at the ideology that Labour offers and the indolence of a public that keeps giving them the levers to pull

11

Harriet,

18/02/2007 08:07:42

Dear AndyBhoy you said "I was promised a new vision of politics and a new way of politicians doing things. What did I get ? Well the first Yes Yes I heard from our MSPs was when they voted to give themselves 17 weeks holidays and a pay rise."

NO - MSPs pay is set by an external body.

NO - MSPs are lucky to get 2 weeks holiday as recess is when mosy work hardest at catching up with constituents whom they ain't been able to see during the (much longer than Westminster) Parliamentary session.

12

Herb Aishus,

Border 18/02/2007 08:58:36

#12 "why blame the poor, probably underfunded and resource poverished, forensic services" - thought it was quite obvious - someone in that service messed up but had neither the courage nor decency to admit to it - funding has nothing to do with it and does not provide honesty, that's up to the individuals concerned who, it seems, cannot spell "integrity", never mind know what it means.

13

archibald fan,

bliar & bush must go 18/02/2007 09:03:17

18. Mine's an 80 bob

Good Morning James, I mean Mine’s an 80 Bob. I can see from other posts every one has caught on and it must be very embarrassing to be caught in so many lies in less than 2 weeks.

As you can see from the other sites every one is acknowledging you are a fake and that you sign on as other names to antagonize others.

Be care deleting these posts as they are being copied and will just be re posted with time stamps.

14

Alasdair McWhirter,

taking time off from cleaning my bicycle 18/02/2007 09:03:28

#13 Harriet - you seem very defensive, are you standing for election next time round, or maybe you are the partner of an MSP? If they are working hardest during the recesses, then it shows how little they must do during session. If they aren't spending so much time with constituents during session, how come the travel expenses are through the roof - day trips to the seaside?

15

Scaramouche,

18/02/2007 09:15:41

Ah, the cops have taken all my prints
Left my fingers stained with ink
Arrested me this sunny afternoon
And I am not impressed
Took me out in my pants and vest
Cuffed to a cop who sniggered and sneered at me

Save me, save me, save me from this squeeze
I got a big fat copper trying to break me
And I hate this interview so much
Don't they know they're out of touch
I wasn't there that sunny afternoon
In the summertime
In the summertime
In the summertime

Forensics say it's all wrapped up
Got the print off a coffee cup
I'm guilty, oh so guilty as can be
Which is why I'm in a cell
Really angry and about to yell
Wasted all my Sunday afternoon!

Ah, free me, free me, free me, I'm innocent
Or get me a lawyer, not the one who's bent
Cos I didn't do this awful crime
And I ain't gonna do no time
In a prison doing the launderee
In the summertime
In the summertime
In the summertime

Ah, save me, save me, save me from this squeeze.
I got a big fat copper trying to break me.
I'm innocent that's really true
But does that matter to you or you?
Forensics say it really is the truth ....
But they got it wrong
So very wrong
So very very wrong!

*Adapted from "Sunny Afternoon" by the legends that are The Kinks.

16

millport curler,

The bicycle island 18/02/2007 09:29:12

Guga 8

"Now the "experts at the centre of the affair may be due for a lucrative severance payment next month".

Why are they being given a lucrative severance payment? What is going on?"

I'm self employed - if I make mistake I carry the can - why shouldn't they?

17

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 09:30:13

MSPs salaries are set by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body, aren't they ? .. that fine upstandingly incompetent institution which oversaw the building of the Parliament ....

.. and they have always wanted more .. more .. more ... from the start .. just look at David Steel's view on it .. you remember him, right ? Holyrood's first presiding officer, had to come up here for a job after his retirement from Westminster and all those fishy details of his undeclared lobbying interests & subs from the Countryside Alliance (£96k +?) : http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=322742002

Getting back to the story though - this wee diversion from the Advocates on the McKie case simply wont do ... and if there ever is one, lets make sure there isn't an Advocate or QC to chair it .. because as soon as you get one of those on an inquiry .. it turns out to be a fiddle.

18

,

18/02/2007 09:34:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
19

A Scott,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 09:37:42

Well a bunch of lawyers would say that wouldnt they? Anything to undermine fp evidence get their crim clients off and make even more money from the public purse..This article reeks of a paper who for years campaigned on behalf of Mckie and after the result of the Inq was produced didnt like the result so it rights nonsense like this ...Still if you think this is bad you should read the article by an "expert witness " who wants to remain nameless (aye right) in the Sun Herald.
These four fingerprint officers for the last ten years have been hounded by the press and media and have had their lives ripped apart why shouldnt they get a "lucrative severence payout"..............Mckie(I thought she was emigrating to Australia) and her father receives an excellent monthly police pension plus a lump sum in her hand plus £750.000 of public money.Cant be bad

20

B K Winetrobe,

East Lothian 18/02/2007 09:43:45

It is a bit rich for the Faculty of Advocates to warn about confidence in the legal system being in danger, when they seem to be lacking in openness and accountability about complaints against their own advocates.

Last November, I tried to find out the outcome of a complaint that was reported in the media last May by Barbara Doig against John D Campbell QC over remarks he was alleged to have made in the aftermath of the Holyrood Inquiry, where they had clashed very publicly (see Scotsman, 21 May 2005: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=555962005).

It took quite a few emails, and finally one copied to the Dean of Faculty himself, for the Faculty to produce the information (in hard copy, rather than electronically) this month, even though that material showed that the complaint had been decided last September.

Though the complaint against Mr Campbell was upheld, there appears, as far as I can see, no record of this on the Faculty's website or in Mr Campbell's pages on that site, so those wishing to use his services may not have direct means that this advocate has had this decision made against him.

To compound the irony, just a couple of days later I received an email from the Faculty stating that "Counsel has requested to know the identity of yourself". This I was happy to give.

Transparency about the senior tiers of the legal profession should be two-way, and, as a start, all outcomes of complaints against advocates should be posted prominently on the Faculty website. Even better, if the Faculty of Advocates is not currently subject to the Freedom of Information Act, it should be made so accountable by the Scottish Executive and Scottish Parliament.

21

Ken Rogers,

Wivenhoe, Essex 18/02/2007 10:05:31

Shirley McKie has obviously suffered severe mental strain during this enquiry. Why has it taken so long thus allowing an innocent person to suffer in this way. UK Justice requires speeding up to allow the innocent to go free and the Guilty to be dealt also swiftly - to many remands before the cases are dealt with. Each remand costing the tax payer more money.

In respect of this case it has cast doubt on the long accepted fingerprint evidence found at the scene of crime or on other evidence, the rules have to be immediately tightened up on present proceedurers otherwise defence lawyers will take advantage and 'guilty' persons will be aquitted.

Ken Rogers MA FIISec. MIIRSM. former CID officer and prosecuter.

22

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 10:22:19

#22. B K Winetrobe, East Lothian

The Faculty of Advocates has an exemption from FOI, just as the Law Society of Scotland also has.

Write to the Justice Minister and ask for their exemption to be revoked .. then all the worms from Faculty Services will write in, threatening legal action & the rest if their FOI exemption flies out the window (I tried this, asking for the Law Society's exemption to be revoked, and the duly expected threats did arrive, along with the usual attack on myself, which cant be reported now because a certain newspaper was also threatened not to take on the story.

The LPLA Bill recently passed in Parliament was supposed to bring full independent regulation to both Advocates & solicitors, but both groups fought long & hard against it, with eventual amendments from [in-the-pocket] sympathetic msps watering down what would have been much stronger pro-consumer legislation capping the endemic corruption & complaints fiddling in the Scottish legal profession.

23

stoatsnest,

)London 18/02/2007 10:37:41

As a a non Scottish lawyer I find this interesting. I have a friend in the forensic dept down here who is very honest, but am always suspicious of anyone who works for the government unless proved otherwise.
Cover-ups do exist, sivil servants do look after each other. and some lawyers are not that honest. Even more non lawyers are dishonest.
It's a problem that has existed throughout history and we can only do our best to combat it.
As for severance pay-that sort of thing is a joke to non civil servants. People are generous with money others have worked for.

24

Linda Gordon,

Laughing stock 18/02/2007 10:45:38

Anyone who watched the documentary and listened to the vidence of global experts in their field would come to a 'reasonable' conclusion a series of errors were made in the best instance. This is not a case of the trauma Shirley McKie endured and a mistake affecting one person. There was also the poor fellow who spent a significant period in jail apparently on the basis of a wrong finger print on a tin that held money. The killer is still at large!! We are the laughing stock of the world and other high profile cases such as Nat Fraser, Luke Mitchelll and Al-Megraghi (Lockerie) will further damage the Scottish Criminal Justice??? System. I invite you all to go into the most recent Gary Ready decision re. www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2007HCJAC15.html for another example of the Scottish Criminal Sytem 'Mad Hatters Tea Party'. Another farcical example!!

25

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 10:54:55

of course .. the simple way for the Faculty to prove their point is to get the lawyers to go dig up cases in the courts where SCRO fingerprint evidence could be questioned, then just do as the legal profession usually does - either threaten the Executive or Parliament on that basis, or simply take the cases before the Judges, cite the McKie case and get them thrown out.

Whats wrong then, Faculty ? not enough evidence to do that ? ..just like the Temp Sheriffs case where we were told there would be 1000s of applications to have rulings thrown out after Temp sheriffs were suspended ?

Bit fishy all this ... as is usual with the legal profession ...

26

Rob me blind,

18/02/2007 11:01:33

Do they really think its only this case that has caused the distrust in the Scottish Justice system and not the case upon case of total injustice and incompetence displayed by the Police and the system as a whole. From start to finish the system is a joke, we have incompetent police officers investigating cases and messing up the evidence presented to the Procurator Farcical. Then we have the Clown Office perpetuating this incompetence by allowing cases to go to court that should not even have reach the PFs office in the first place ( a case of breach of the peace for shining a torch in broad daylight) Peterhead Sheriff Court January 2006. Then the courts themselves where all the actors take part in the farce. All bowing and scraping and talking double Dutch while we the tax payer are funding the show.

Its time the whole system was revamped and penalties put in place for any incompetence in any phase of the proceedings. They tell us the Police wont be able to sustain their pension funds soon well if more of the incompetent ones were sacked then there wouldn’t be pensions to be paid. If the PF was on performance related pay maybe we would see a system that proceeds with cases that have been properly investigated and not just hashed together. If the defence lawyers were only paid from the public purse if the case was dealt with within a short time scale then we wouldn’t see these cases being dragged on for months and years.

Some of us had great hopes that Jamieson would make a difference but like all in her party all she is interested in is the flavour of the day never mind sorting out the fundamental problems with the system

27

St Nicholas,

Essex 18/02/2007 11:03:20

If you wish to have the truth about the Shirley McKie case revealed (and the Lockerbie bombing case as well), I suggest that you sign the following e-petition to the Prime Minister: http//petitions.pm.gov.uk/PJHaseldine/.

But be quick! The petition closes on Thursday, 22 February 2007.

28

ddmc,

18/02/2007 11:03:26

#2 RFID has already been cracked & Verichip had to make some embarrasing disclosures on the IPO they launched the other week.

29

St Nicholas,

Essex 18/02/2007 11:06:12

The correct link to the e-petition to the PM is http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/PJHaseldine/

30

,

18/02/2007 11:29:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

musicismylife,

18/02/2007 11:36:27

Great parody, Scaramouche. You've never turned in a bad one yet. Keep up the good work.

32

Auld Tam,

Central Belt 18/02/2007 11:40:57

Dont want to comment here in case I ever want to join Muirfield and get blackballed!!!!!!

33

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 12:18:54

Comment@7 Bob10....oh really..heres an interesting news item in the telegraph :) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=LXN...

34

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 12:22:56

Comment@30 ddmc, hi mate, heres some good news as regards that for a change......even the doctors are waking up :) http://news.com.com/Patients,+doctors+staying+away+from+i...

35

lisa,

Perth 18/02/2007 12:33:05

Sacaramouche - looking forward to your rendition (lovely word) of that other great Kinks song - Holyrood Sunset. Due for release in May I believe.

All other posts - Guilt/Innocence are issues only for the parties involved. For everybody else, the only issue is confidence. And we haven't got any.

36

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 12:48:37

We should not be surprised by anything that Cathy Jamieson has been involved with!
Lets face it,the lassie disnae ken where it is,never mind whit it is!
The second biggest crime perpetuated in Scotland was her appointment (interestingly enough by the biggest one)
When I was a lad a popular joke was Tell me a dirty joke: Answer Joke the Coalman
Today it should read tell me a stupid joke:
Answer Joke McConnel.

37

Guje, Annies´ mother,

Sweden 18/02/2007 13:28:17

Regarding Scottish justice.

Dec 4, 2005. my daughter Annie, 30, was found dead on the shore in Prestwick, probarbly drowned, close to the airport from where she always went back to Sweden. At the time Annie lived in Edinburgh about 100 kilometres from Prestwick.

Annie was found with with her passport and two librarybooks to return to a library in Sweden. The last days of her life she, among other things, had payed the rent for a whole months, had a vaccination and bought a lesiure card to be able to go swimming. She also had made an appointment with her hair dresser in Sweden Dec 5. Two days before she died she also called home and it then got obvious that she was under a threat.

All this and several other very stange circumstances in spite, the Police has treated Annies´ death as a suicide! But Annie was a perfectly happy girl who loved life!

The investigation now is closed down and classified secret by Crown Council! Why, and by whom we are not alloweded to know!

Due to the law Freedom of Information, we ought to get to see the investigation but there is an exeption for investigations of deaths, since they are not in the public interrest!! Well, my daughters investigation is of the intressest of MY FAMILY!!

This is how the death of my daughter has been treated by justice. After all this time I have no trust at all in the Scotish legal system.

Is there anyone reading this that can help us get clearity about my daughters death? If you would like to get some more information about Annies case, send information, make comments in her guest book or read about the reward, please visit Annies´website; www.annierockstar.com

Thank you for reading this. Annie loved Scotland and the Scottish people but Justice doesn not seem to care about her detah at all! Yours sincerely, Guje, Annies mother.

38

Grandparents Apart Self Help Group Scotland,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 13:38:09

Fathers and grandparents have lost faith in the brittish/scottish legal system long ago.

Contact orders made by a judge/sheriff in the best interests of children have been flouted for years (contempt of court). And the chief lawyer for the executive said "the ministers have no answer to it"

One sided unfair laws that rob a father of his rights but still expect him to carry on his responsibilities. The law that stops grandparents from contacting their grandchildren are protecting abusers of children in more than 100,00 drug & alcohol related problem homes.

These laws are a total farce.

39

Anthony,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 13:52:59

Congratulations to the Faculty of Advocates. They came in late, but have come in in style. This is in marked contrast to the Law Society of Scotland, who have been utterly pathetic in the face of clear abuse of our system.

You can't add anything to Ms Stacy's analysis. Eloquent and succinct. Says it all.

40

Booby Action,

18/02/2007 14:52:49

#17 Excellent Scara, ever think of writing songs for Brittney Spears ?

Our justice system is not that bad. Not really the biggest case in the world and if you ask me she made a meal of it. McKie loves the puplicity and the free haircuts it gets her.

English justice is far worst, Brum 6, Guilford 4.........
Things ain't that bad for us Scots.

41

plord,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 15:21:45

how about making the courts more accessible to ordinary people, no latin and and an easy way to petition the court of session etc., between them advocates and the government operate a closed shop.
As for the freedom of information act its a joke, and even the current pathetic situation is under threat from proposed legislation by the very people who put it in place, why? because its those very people it has exposed for lying cheating incompetent wasters.
Do people vote labour because they do a good job or is it some form of Stockholm syndrome?

42

open,

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS 18/02/2007 15:26:07

We are getting utterly fed up with legal mobsters using media platforms to tell us what in their minds is going wrong in Scotland.

From our long term group experiences within the courts of Scotland we can say with certainty if it is not the political buffoons that are dragging us into the mire it is the mobsters controlling our courts illegally that are at fault.

The monopoly they have been allowed to hold onto so long breaching every EU policy on competition is by far the major cause of the breakdown of law and order that started with the failures of our courts, run by a bunch of self appointed self interested crooks ,lining their pockets at the utter expense of innocent law abiding citizens.

Criminality does pay but only for the criminal lawyers hanging onto the coat tails of the serial criminals they support at the enormous expense of the long suffering Scottish public.CIVIL courts in Scotland are an utter disgrace and we should know as we have lost our homes,business's,land and children thanks to having our due process in law being undermined by criminal collusion.

The multi billion pound land and property theft is conclusive proof of just what is WRONG with our systems of law and order.

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS

43

CHIC,

18/02/2007 15:43:43

What a surprise the faculty of advocates want to discredit fingerprint evidence in Scotland.

Obviously SoS would publish their rantings because this paper and it's sister are firmly in Iain McKie's pocket.

Suggest you read the front page of the Sunday Post to find out that Strathclyde Police have re-opened their investigation in Shirley McKie.

http://www.dcthomson.co.uk/MAGS/POST/news.htm

44

Alasdair McWhirter,

tea and cake 18/02/2007 16:22:32

#45 Chic - last time I looked at the Sunday Post was to see if Orr Wullie was still alive, and that's just what it is, a comic. Perhaps you might enlighten the readers with proof of your allegation involving Iain McKie and the Scotsman publications, or is it just something you made up?

45

Alasdair McWhirter,

tea and cake 18/02/2007 16:23:18

That would in fact be Oor Wullie, sorry, just like the Sunday Post, I was having a joke.

46

W Smith,

Middle East 18/02/2007 16:25:04

#38 Morris

You criticism of Cathy Jamieson is totally unfair.

She is a highly qualified ...eh...... Art student and...a social worker for goodness sake.

How can you suggest she doesn't have the relevant experience to become Justice Minister?

Scotland is going to the dogs because of people like you who don't take the Scottish Parliament seriously.

You'll be telling us next that John Prescott isn't fit to be Deputy Prime Minister!

47

Phil1,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 16:27:24

Sympathy should be with the victim not the accused and by not admitting their mistakes the finger print officers have made 100% sure that no member of a jury will ever again find anyone guilty of any crime if it relies on fingerprint evidence.

And they want a pay off!!!!

48

Searchlight,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 16:28:54

Guga (8) asks what happened to the secret report alleging criminality. I take it he refers to the unsubstantiated allegations in the MacKay Report. The PF at Paisley, then William Gilchrist, fully investigated them and said they were unfounded.
Justice 1, after seeing the pathetic performance by James MacKay, stated they had seen nothing to suggest criminality. In actual fact the allegations were made by Iain McKie to MacKay and he simply repeated them in his report.
Chic (45) thanks for pointing out the Suday Post article. It's a great read. Bet you there are a few people sweating now!

49

Pilrig,

Livingston 18/02/2007 17:00:22

Surely a lot of this mess could have been avoided if a public enquiry had been held regarding the McKie case ? But we were told that it 'wasn't necessary' and it would be in the best interests of all to 'move on.' Why ?

50

Ailsa Craig,

Near Arran 18/02/2007 17:02:35

# 37. Guje.

I am so sorry to read the story of your daughter's death. And I am APPALLED that the truth of the matter has not come to light. As you will have read in the foregoing article, Scottish justice - once the jewel in our crown - now leaves a lot to be desired!

How magnanimous it is of you to retain your love of Scotland and its people! My thoughts are with you. Keep fighting!

It may be of little consolation to you. But the family of the late singer Kirsty McColl have fought a similar public campaign to discover the truth about her death by drowning in a boating accident (abroad). I don't know how you could contact the McColl family, but I expect this is easily reseached on the Internet.

Good luck!

51

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18/02/2007 17:23:48
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52

Capital C,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 17:37:50

I will feel rightly smug when I repaet a put down issued by yours truly to an admittedly very attractive advocate recently. In reponse to her mocking my (in her opinion) lowly status I replied, "sah yes thats right you're not JUST a lawyer you're an adcocate! I always get confused to the correct order lawyer....earth worm...advocate!"

She seemed a little put out and whirled on her very expensive high heels and tottered off!

#26 You speak of peoples innocence or are you complaining about the conduct of their trials?
I have some knowledge of the subject matter and suggest that perhaps you don't!

53

Ailsa Craig,

Near Arran 18/02/2007 17:39:24

# 39. Guje.

A follow-up. Kirsty's surname should be spelled (MacColl - not McColl, as I intimated earlier). Sorry about that!

Kirsty MacColl's drowning took place off Mexico when she was struck by the speedboat of a well-known businessman. A cover-up by the Mexican authorities has ensured that the truth of Kirsty MacColl's death has never come to light.

The story is, indeed, very easily researched via the Internet. You could start using Google and Wikipedia. There is also a "Justice for Kirsty" web-site.

From what I can see, Scottish justice is now no better than Mexico's. But, somehow, one expects better things from "the best small country in the world".

I hope these postings will be of some help to you - and that you will retain your goodwill towards Scotland and its people.

Is Scotland the best small country in the world? Well, it COULD be - if the "powers that be" were only worth their salt!

54

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 17:50:55

48
Im still trying to make up my mind whether you are serious or not!

Your argument is one of the most supportive of what I said I have ever heard !

55

Duncan,

Scotland being watched 18/02/2007 17:59:29

13 HAMIL

You are wrong.

The disgusting pay and expenses taken by our greedy self serving MSPs are awarded to them by... the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body, who have done nothing but cover them selves in opulence and riches since they were spawned upon this nation. The building they work from is a temple to their ego's. Then their is the medals they awarded them selves. Oh and let us not forget the photographer flown in from America. Their greed and excess is worthy of the worst third world dictators. This from a nation that has the worst child poverty in the "developed world." Anyone who regards them as an independent body must still believe in Santa.

The long holidays enjoyed by MSPs are spent feathering their own nests and not according to you, "recess is when mosy work hardest at catching up with constituents whom they ain't been able to see during the (much longer than Westminster) Parliamentary session."
What a complete joke that statement is. They are supposed to hold monthly surgeries, but if mine is anything to go by, it is attended by the wife or assistant who is normally a relative dipping their snout in the trough. Your defensive post sounds like one of them.
It would be an interesting exercise would it not to have this paper publish a diary of the annual work schedule of an MSP? They should all be on performance pay.

56

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 18:41:49

It would seem that the body known as SCCRC are also Corrupt and will not fully investigate Miscarriages fully.
I have complained about their conduct to Justice Minister and First Minister who always pass these complaints to Justice Department Mr Pearson who sits with SCCRC to discuss issues and policies. The Justice Department are sole Sponsors of SCCRC How independent is this.
I have complained that their reasons for non referral and non investigation into my competent grounds are because of who i am complaining of and because of his link to the Lockerbie case.
the person i attribute blame to for my conviction in his defective representation of my case also sat on the board of SCCRC while my case was investigated yet to allow them to remain independent and impartial the same person resigned when the Lockerbie Bomber appealed his conviction. what does this say about the way they investigated my grounds.
I told them my defence team never interviewed 16 of 19 defence witnesses before or after my trial.
They would not entertain this ground nor would they ask my defence team about this.
I told them my defence team should have called crucial Forensic evidence at my trial.
Ahain they did not entertain this ground nor did they ask my defence team about this.
I told them my case was similar to one which collapsed in 2001 because the arresting officers were involved in the running of the id Parade and witnesses spoke in court of being shown Photos before the ID Parade.
Again SCCRC refused to entertain this competent ground and refused to even answer me on this issue.
There should be a body set up to review SCCRC and to deal with complaints levelled at them.
When i did complain to SCCRC the person whom i was complaining of dealt with my complaints. How independent is that?
They did not invoke their complaints procedures and even claim on their web that they have had no complaints from applicants

57

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18/02/2007 18:57:53
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58

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia,Canada. 18/02/2007 19:08:17

"Scottish Legal System"? Being familiar with the "Canadian legal system", NO "STONES" THROWN FROM HERE........just too much glass in evidence.

59

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 19:10:49

SCCRC Agreed that the Judge misdirected my Jury But they refused to refer my case saying:it would only take half an hour to travel from Livingston To Glasgow Cross, What a Joke. I do not know where they got their times from?
There was not an issue of the car travelling from Livingston to Glasgow, The car was chased from Livingston to Newbridge and then went on to Kirkliston were it was abandoned, So of what use is their timings from Livingston to Glasgow, to them?
They have set their mind on an issue and refuse to reconsider their preposterous conclusions.
They also agreed that the conduct at My ID Parade was not what one would expect today But they refuse to answer me when i say they should then Apply their Current Law Policy to this, advertised on their web.
in 1982 i was refused leave to appeal and was dragged out screaming but the SCCRC refuse to entertain my grounds that i have not had an appeal and should now be allowed to lodge grounds outwith time to go to sift.
My QC in 1982 said to legal aid board (after i sacked him) That i had no grounds of appeal and legal aid was refused so what chance did i have of winning any appeal when i was not afforded the equality of arms that i was entitled to?
SCCRC also refused to interview my witnesses claiming their evidence was hearsay, How can they do this without first ascertaining what they have to say.
They also claimed hearsay evidence is not admissible in court which is not true, It is admissible under stringent guidelines.
I recently submitted fresh grounds to SCCRC and claimed the charge to Jury served to equiparate proff beyond reasonable doubt with the concept of being reasonably certain. They did not answer this but answered with old grounds already refused by them. They should read the issues properly

60

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 19:23:45

Colin R Bearsden.
I totally agree with you on the issue of Lockerbie and so does Jim Swire he is callin into question the legth of time it has taken them to investigate this case.
They took from 2001 till 2004 Dec to give me a decision on a two day trial but this to me was only because of the Lockerbie link to my QC and because he sat on the board while my case was investigated.
Like Nat fraser also i have claimed Crown had a duty to reveal the existence of a contradictory statement Saying the driver of the car was about forty years old with brown hair and moustache i was only twenty at the time and idenentified twice< once being an Off-Duty policeman.
I told SCCRC that his evidence was tainted by the fact the solicitor noted he had No 2 out his mouth before turning round.
My QC has sought to deny knowing of the solicitors evidence despite him being on the defence witnesses list and despite his ID Parade report being available, Even Taylor cocedes the solicitors evidence certainly raises a large question mark over the police evidence but SCCRC still refuse to refer my case.
See appeal No XC75/06 At this hearing in March 2006 the three appeal court Judges agreed they did not want to upset the SCCRC but dont mention this in their report

61

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 19:41:11

I told SCCRC that the other identification of me was tainted not only by other Crown witnesses but by his own Statement.
He said in evidence he was chasing a man carrying a grey Attache' case with a jerkin on and he was wearing a balaclava, The other witnesses including the police said they were wearing Balaclavas under snorkel type jackets with hoods, Anyway he also said he lost sight of this man and the next thing he saw was the car coming out of the Riggs, There was nothing suspicious about this car and nothing to attract his attention to it but he wrote down the number of it.
In his statement i was given after my trial he states he ran into Raeburn rigg and someone was shouting to stop the car, This is backed by other Crown Witnesses as i say and is a material change in his evidence as; If he ran into Raeburn Rigg then he would not have been able to claim as he did: that the car passed him by and he recognised the driver and claimed this was me.
SCCRC did not entertain this arguement and did not try to interview this witness but as i say they interviewed the police for him to say he was certain of his ID of me.

62

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 19:51:03

Corrupt SCCRC
I told them my friend was placed on a second ID Parade and that he claimed someone was picked out positive, When narrowed down i claimed this ID must have been by the police that had picked me on the first Parade.
They refused to interview my friend and they have said they were unable to obtain a copy of Second ID Parade report from Crown. Crown Office sent copies of all reports of Identification to SCCRC on 18th June 2002 yet SCCRC say they only recieved one to which i had attended.
Crown are also now telling me they have not retained a copy of what was sent to SCCRC on 18th June 2002 even although it clearly states in their letter that they are enclosing copies not originals.
In my opinion Crown and SCCRC are working in conjunction with one another and this seriously undermines the role of SCCRC in curing Miscarriages Of Justice

63

CHIC,

18/02/2007 19:59:28

'Funny to see Chic inadvertently expose Strathclyde Police and the Crown Office for what they are-ie corrupt and uninterested in justice'

Colin, nothing inadvertent about it certain officers in Strathclyde have stayed quiet over this affair and could have ended it long ago.

As for the Crown office, if you have ever read any of my previous posts on this case I have been quite clear in my critism of Colin Boyd and his pals. Afterall Boyd did resign over how the Crown had handled the Asbury Appeal.
You are right to say the Crown office is accountable to no-one, what makes this worse is that the Lord Advocate is a political appointment, who sits in cabinet. So it is pretty obvious where their loyalty lies.

Are you seriously suggesting that Strathclyde Police should not investigate a crime, when they are handed the evidence on a plate?

And it is not just an anonymous taxi driver who claims McKie commited perjury. Why not read some of the evidence available on the J1 website.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/jus...

You mention Willie Rae's spin doctors. Did you know that before he retired Iain McKie was Strathclde Police's Media Relations Officer? Are you questioning his integrity?

Alasdair #46

Please can you supply links to news articles which have supported the SCRO officers claims that they have been falsly accused.
If you cannot then i will stand by my accusation that the Scotsman group have an ajenda when they report on this case. To make it easier for you to prove me wrong I will expand my accusation to include the Herald and BBC Scotland.

64

The Guzz,

Fife 18/02/2007 19:59:38

# 28. Rob me blind – I’m with you on that one.
# 32, 53.& 59 Colin R – Good stuff.
The Scottish justice system is corrupt from the bobby on the beat through to the top Advocates. The priority for them is conviction at all costs and justice being seen to be done. At whatever point the corruption and or incompetence starts, the cover ups start. If every injustice was rebuffed when it became obvious then I am sure that the track record of the police on detection and apprehension of criminals would show a much higher failure rate. So the system investigates and rules on complaints against themselves. Would an independent body be any more independent? They would probably have to come under one government department or another and so the corruption and cover up continues.
I still feel that ‘good’ fingerprint evidence can be exact enough if the ‘experts’ were honest people. In this case the first person to say that the prints belonged to McKie ‘could’ have made a genuine mistake. But for his word to just be accepted and not confirmed would be bad practice. The fact that this motley crew have banded together to save face regardless that the suspect was now one of the police shows how safe they felt that their word would be accepted. This is of course unless there actually was a police conspiracy to Frame McKie for this offence. Either way it stinks. An impartially (ha ha) chaired public enquiry with no reporting restrictions should be held. And if (when) the four collaborators in this conspiracy are found guilty of incompetence/corruption/perverting the course of justice etc; they should be arrested, prosecuted and sentenced in accordance with the crime and not who they are and where they came from. They should be suspended immediately and any suggestion of a golden handshake on retirement/resignation should be frozen pending the outcome of the enquiry. Guilt of course means no pay-out. If they are ‘and they will be’ paid off, this shou

65

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 20:00:58

Corrupt SCCRC
Even My Solicitor has questioned The Way SCCRC take Their Statements.
He has accused them of writing what they wanted to and not what he was actually saying.
He has accused the author of his statement of being Mistaken when he wrote the Crown statements would not have been available to him at the time of my trial.
It was Mr K That gave me the statements to conduct my own appeal in 1982 and he is now trying to claim that 16 of my defence witnesses refused to co-operate and Crown must have supplied them.
SCCRC refused to accept my argument on this and refused to interview my 16 defence witnesses that my Lawyer is now trying to calim did not co-operate, but at least he has conceded that the statements were released to him which is not what SCCRC concluded

66

Sambo,

The deep south 18/02/2007 20:13:49

#18
Millport curler,
Hello, I had a great time on yer Cumbrae last year, ah hud ma photo taen on The Crocodile Rock.

67

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 20:20:01

Crown Office Cover Up
SCCRC asked Crown for details of the trial of my Wife who was charged two years after i was convicted.
rown office replied and said from the imformation in front of them she was due to stand trial on 16th may 1984 for attempted subornation of perjury.
SCCRC then wrote again asking for all documents in relation to her case.
Crown are now saying they do not know were this information came from and they cannot even tell SCCRC who the witnesses were at my wifes trial for this serious charge yet in the Soham Enquiry they said if Huntley had been tied then they would have had him on record. What has happened to the court records of my wife's trial

68

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 20:22:51

The Crown Office are rotten to the core - when they aren't fiddling the cases, or passing over on charges relating to members of the legal profession (their colleagues) ... they are using their power & might in the most vindictive way against anyone who critisises their methods.

For instance, I know of a Fiscal who filed false reports with the Police against a member of the public who called into question their investigation methods ... Cops arrested the person, took statements, then nothing was done, and it was later admitted, the Police had been 'used' to 'put the frighteners on that person' - sick .. and now the only record of the event seems to be the person's call to his lawyer from the Police station during the arrest (everything else wiped) but such seems to be quite common.

I hope the Scotsman news eds are taking notes of the comments here, which portray a legal system very far from what some of the stories posted as 'news' show .. some of those written by lawyers posing as journalists, who sometimes use the newspaper to inflate their own cases.

Let's be having some stories on the nitty gritty of Scottish Law .. who twists it (the lawyers) and who prevents change for the better (the Executive & Parliament)

69

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 20:27:59

SCCRC
They Relied upon and referred to a witness claiming i went to his door and told him he was to be a witness for me at my trial.
This is despite me being in prison at the time which can be proven by looking at the minutes of trial.
I am told i cannot see the Crown precognitions as the Data Protection and public interest stop these being released But i am entitled to the Minutes (which i have got) which contain every Jurors name and address. Why can i not see the statements of witnesses that gave evidence at my trial and What do crown have to be frightened of.
only recently cases have collapsed due to crown not releasing witness statements to Defence teams.
Check Scotsman 21 Dec 2006 By Arnot Mcwhinnie and see judgements of Lords Hardie and bracadale?

70

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 20:30:59

SCCRC cover Up Protest
See You-Tube's Big Wullie gets the chop and SCCRC Glasgow protest.
There will be more protests to follow

71

Biker,

Ayr 18/02/2007 20:33:07

Hey scarramouch Very very good indeed

72

CHIC,

18/02/2007 20:37:34

Guzz,

You obviously dont know what you are talking about 8 SCRO officers gave evidence to the Justice Inquiry that the McKie ident was correct they were backed up by 4 independant experts.

You suggest that these people were not 'honest' yet the justice inquiry concluded that they did not act with malice?

All the officers were doing was eliminating a mark from the murder inquiry.

McKie had been told by a superior officer not to enter the crime scene and had previously been in trouble for contaminating evidence with her palm print. She would have been in bother if she admitted to being there so she lied. Hopefully the new Strathclyde investigation will prove it.

73

Alasdair McWhirter,

tea and cake 18/02/2007 20:57:37

Chic - still waiting for your evidence pal. (Need to keep an eye on your spelling too, its no too hot)

74

CHIC,

18/02/2007 21:05:45

Alasdair,

The evidence is in the articles and editorials.

Please prove me wrong.

75

olja,

serbia 18/02/2007 21:07:09

colin boyd refused to give information to the mckie enquiry. he was an advocate, he was a QC, he was head honcho at crown office, he was a member of the executive. what possible excuse can there ever be? why is nothing done about this? i dont live in scotland any more. neither do any of my children. i wish everyone else would leave too.

76

Gnasher,

18/02/2007 21:36:04

Chic - are you Fiona on the Sunday Herald comments?

77

Alasdair McWhirter,

tea and cake 18/02/2007 21:54:49

Chic, oh dear if the only newspaper that you believe in is the Sunday Post, then life must just be one bed of roses. I asked you to bring the evidence to this discussion - its not appeared - just unspecific references to 'articles' and 'editorials' (not that editorials are anything but thoughts and opinions - hardly facts).
No point in asking you for them, you obviously haven't got any proof of anything, only a chip on your shoulder.

78

The Guzz,

Fife 18/02/2007 21:59:59

# 74 CHIC - So “8 SCRO officers gave evidence to the Justice Inquiry that the McKie indent was correct they were backed up by 4 independent experts.” This makes it so does it? I saw 'other' independent experts on the news offering different conclusions to those accepted when the scandal of Scotland's SCRO exposing at least part of our justice system broke to world ridicule. I did also say that the first to fit the print to McKie 'could' have made a genuine mistake. That is as far as I am prepared to go on this at the present time. The justice inquiry may have said that they did not act with malice. Justice departments investigating and passing judgement on themselves???
You said “All the officers were doing was eliminating a mark from the murder inquiry?” I agree that is what should be happening 'always' but so much more seems to be coming out of this inquiry. Your last paragraph endorses that as well as your own bias in this case. She has won her case and proved her point but because police feathers have been ruffled the fight goes on to get her at all costs.
What are the police doing about the victim?
How long will they keep Asbury waiting for his justice?
I may not be in Big Wullie’s league and reading his thread, all my sympathies are with him. But I have experienced police bullying, police telling lies in court, police stopping and fining motorists for traffic 'crimes' that never happened. I have experienced unwarranted police assaults in cells and witnessed others being beaten 'just because they (the police) could.' I have experienced Procurators Fiscal, - another 'independent' body??? - take complaints made to them about the police, to the police the complaint was made about. The result was ‘always’ police harassment of the complainers and totally unsatisfactory conclusions reached by the Chief Constables concerned on the conduct of their own forces. I have witnessed Sheriffs’ blindly accept the word of 'lying' police witn

79

CHIC,

18/02/2007 22:10:49

Gnasher,

No I am 'Chic' on the Sunday Herald comments.

Fiona would appear to be trying to give a possible explanation as to why Iain McKie is so persistant in his harrassment of the SCRO officers. She is obviously suspicious of his motives. (although her suggestion that it is actually his print, is way off the mark)

Personally I think he sees the allegations against his daughter as a stain on his reputation.
Justice 1 learned that within 7 days of markY7 being identified as McKie's. Iain was in the Divisional Commanders office demanding that the mark was re-examined with Shirley standing over the fingerprint officer.
Since that moment it stopped being about his daughter's innocence and became a campaign to protect his own ego.

At Christmas he announced that he would stop campaigning for a Judicial inquiry. This was just another publicity stunt. Since then he has hijacked the anniversary of Marion Ross's murder to promote his book and he seems more than happy to continue giving quotes when required.

I want a Judicial Inquiry it is the only way we will uncover the corruption in the Crown Office and force McKie and her supporters to actually answer the questions put to them.(At Justice 1 too many just avoided answering the questions that were put to them)

80

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 22:27:22

re Peter cherbi Edinburgh
Your comments about the police being used to put the frighteners on someone does not surprise me.
In my case the old man that lived up the stair from me in Barlanark had been set about the week before i was arrested outside my house with a hammer.
I shouted out my window for the guy to leave him alone, however he said something back like, F--- Off which made me jump out my kitchen window and chase him with a big Kitchen Knife.
The old man got 58 stitches in his head was deaf in his right ear and his hands were all burst.
Myself and my dad called an ambulance right away and he was taken to hospital.
Four days later on 12 Dec 1981 i went out to his van which was stopped outside my house and he came down and spoke to me and even served me in his van.
I remember it as if it was only yesterday.
The police found out (From My Lawyer) that he had spoken to me and my solicitor could not find him to take a statement from him, The Police told him if he went to court and said he saw me that day, :then they(The Police) would make sure he never got any Criminal Injuries.
This man came to court and swore my life away and said he never saw me that day and he was not in his van.
If i had left him with the guy hitting him with the hammer i would not have been able to sleep at night because he would probably have been dead.
I wonder how he has slept all these years knowing i was wrongly imprisoned for assaulting and robbing two postmen with Hammers.
My Lawyer cited him as a witness but my QC never asked him about his criminal Injuries claim (Which could have been verified) and would have backed my wife saying he had told her about the police.
My QCs excuse for not asking him about his criminal injuries was: He did not want to be seen to be calling the Police Liars

81

Annies Angels,

Sweden 18/02/2007 22:28:45

#39 Guje

GUJE , I THINK OF YOU AND THE FAMILY EVERY DAY AND I PRAY THAT WE FINALLY WILL FIND OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED YOUR BELOVED DAUGHTER, AND OUR DEAR FRIEND ANNIE!
The investigation now is closed down and classified secret by Crown Council! Why?
I pray everyday that the Police will re-open the case and take this seriously. Why cant the police se that something is wery wrong aboute Annies death?

We, her friends and her family who know Annie, knew that Annie was a happy positive, girl who loved Scottland and the people there, and that was the reason why She was there this last time , to get a good job and then a nice apartment.
During her first visit she took a Cambridge examina , she got to know a lot of people and when she then, after those 6 mounth, went back to Sweden, Annie got a scollarship to work at theScottish Whiskey Heritage Center. There she really got to know a lot of nice people that she spend her time of with. And together with her friends she realy got to know the beautiful Edinburgh. The first time I visited Scottland and Edinburgh I fell in love in both the kind people and the beauty of the landscape in the countryside and of course Edinburgh the city that Annie chosed to be the place where She should live.
I am so happy that they got to know my dear friend, And I would like to thank them so much for the support and help that they have given the family.

Please help Annies family and us Annies friends that is trying to get the truth aboute what happened her those last days in Edinburgh.
She met a man Martin Lesley, a former rugbyplayer, Annie met him several times, but he told the polise that he wasnt there , in Scottland ?? That is very strange!
Annie told us that she was coming home to Sweden before the 6th of December and in her bag was her passport , and the library books that she was to return to the library in Sweden.

Annie was a very strong swimmer and when th

82

CHIC,

18/02/2007 22:33:06

Guzz,

I am sorry for your experiences of Scottish Justice and I have no reason to dispute them.
But the SCRO officers are not responsible for the examples you have provided. They too have been persecuted due to an incompetent, possibly corrupt Crown Office.

In your origional post you gave the impression that only 4 experts believed it was McKie, due to the media bias in this case many people may believe that.

I agree there should be scrutiny, the problem with MSP's is that they make political decisions and cannot be trusted to act on behalf of justice.

You are entitled to an opinion all I ask is that you do not base your opinion on media reports. Read the evidence submitted to J1 and watch the evidence sessions, finally read the J1 report and see just how much evidence the committee chose to ignore.

83

Guje, Annies´ mother,

Sweden 18/02/2007 22:53:33

#55 Thank you for your message, I will absolutely check the MacColl case up. I suppose cover up and bad Police work exists all over the world. Unfortunately. About my daughter Anniess´case
(#39) there are so many strange circumstances and still the Strathclyde Police did not investigate her death as a crime.

Why would Annie travel 100 kilometers all the way from Edinburgh to Prestwick to commit suicide? She was a happy lively girl with no mental or drug problem. Why did she not were her jacket when found? It was Dec 4 and she easily got cold. Why was her jacket and her bag found at the same spot as her body, they all have different weights and density! Why did Annie carry her passport and library books? My answer is, because she was on her way home! To see us, and her hairdresser Dec.5.

How do you drown your self in “no water at all”, that is, where Annie was found, when the tide is out you have to walk several hundreds yards out into the water to be able to get into deep water, and when the tide is in, it´s no more than one meter high! Why did Annie have two bruising on her arm in the shape of squares, how do you get that at sea? Was she transported there by car?

And why is my daughter´s hair missing? Who chopped Annies´blond waistlong hair off? And why is the Police and the Procurator Fiscal refusing to investigate who did this?

This is just a few of the questions that I have about my daughters death. To my family and me, and all of Annies friends, it is obvious that Annie was the victim of a crime! This is obvious to everybody, but not to the Police and the Procurator Fiscal!

What I want is a serious investigation about my daughters death! I want to know who killed Annie! And I want to see for myself what has been done so far, which I fear is nothing. Is that why the Crown Council is denying me to get access to the investigation? Or is it a revenge because I used my legal rights to make a complaint about the investigation?

84

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 23:10:24

The QC should be fired the average Scot could have told this years ago ... roughly about when socialism and lefty wishy washy politics came into being in out little northerly goulag ...

85

IWright,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 23:29:27

Guje
Have you tried to get help from a member of the Scottish Parliament?

86

The Guzz,

Fife 18/02/2007 23:46:00

CHIC - I agree that the SCRO officers were not responsible for any of the examples that I quoted and I note what you say about the possibility that they too have been persecuted due to an incompetent, possibly corrupt Crown Office. I have no reason to doubt this considering the way the whole system works. Nobody seems to be able to trust or depend on the quality of service that they get from the various departments in the system and all doing their bit to cover up anything that may cast aspersions on their patch. Is it any wonder that the man in the street has no faith in any of it and does not trust anyone currently involved in the whole legal system.
I accept what you say on my comment of only four experts. I understood that that was all that were directly in the full time employ of the SCRO. The 'independent' experts they took to court to verify their findings were chosen for just that reason. They 'agreed' with the SCRO. There were more experts that did not agree and who were not 'invited' by the SCRO to express their opinion.
Isn't there supposed to be a Ministerial department to make sure that MSPs political decisions are in compliance with the law? But of course we all know that the deeper we dig the deeper the corruption goes. So I started by saying that it comes from the bobby on the beat and we are now up to the MSPs and unfortunately we have known about this lot since the wee pretendy parliament began. Well we can do something about the MSPs in May then who knows what after that. Maybe Scottish Law can redeem itself with a good pull through with a Christmas tree.
Finally I note your last paragraph and agree that to reach a definitive conclusion, 'all' of the evidence would have to be studied. The media does however often highlight cases that prove that there are cases where justice is NOT being fairly dispensed. Some of the posts on this threat would support that. Until the whole system is investigated and the 'obvious but

87

Guje, Annies´ mother,

Sweden 19/02/2007 00:17:00

#87
Yes I have. (See also: 39 and 85). Because of the anniversary of my daughters´death Dec 4, I visited Scotland and then also had a meeting with MSP John Scott who then talked to the Procurator Fiscal. This effort from his side however led to nothing and he could do nothing more.

I have also written two letters to MSP Cathy Jamieson asking for her help. Those letters she in her turn has sent to The Crown Office who unfortunately has not taken my concerns seriously but has replied to my questions in accordance with the official statements from the Police, the very same that I have been making complaints about!

The situation really is awful, I do not know where to turn! I know that my daughter is murdered but nobody cares! And Annies´ murderer is still walking free somewhere in Scotland!

To anyone that has ideas of what to do about this situation please write to me; info@annierockstar.com or read about Annies´ case at; www.annierockstar.com Yours sincerely, Guje, Annies mother.

88

rab, glasgow,

19/02/2007 00:21:34

Scottish justice has been in crisis since jackass appointed cathie jamieson as justice minister,
this wee art expert [jamieson] is worse than useless.

89

,

19/02/2007 00:43:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
90

plord,

edinburgh 19/02/2007 00:48:19

Guje, Annies´ mother
have you tried the Scottish information commissioner?
http://www.itspublicknowledge.info/

91

rab, glasgow,

19/02/2007 00:49:44

89. Guje, Annies´ mother, Sweden /All I can advise
is do not accept jamiesons, pass the buck routine, email her time and time again.
let her know that her non responce to your terrible situation is totaly unacceptable and as justice minister she must be seen to earn her outrages salary by actualy doing something possitve.

92

siusaidh,

19/02/2007 00:51:16

There goes the so called british justice system.....
How are we going to change it?

Perhaps independence would be able to fully evolve the so called justice system....that we have to put up with at the moment.

93

rab, glasgow,

19/02/2007 00:56:32

91. Colin R, Bearsden / Thanks for reminding me about the donkey with buck teeth [wallace] on it,s poor wee back, I nearly forgot about this numpty.

94

,

19/02/2007 01:04:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
95

RCG,

Falkirk 19/02/2007 06:38:17

Leave all his for a better place
www.youscotland.com

It's where it's happening, now!

96

Pete39,

Tassy 19/02/2007 06:44:12

Well fifty odd years ago we respected the police. I would think that even the crims and the kids respected the police. Nowadays with high powered lawyers and interference from the PC brigade and media I would think that they do not have an easy job. Personally I believe that Scotland, like the rest of the western world and Australia have lost the place a bit. The last media headline we had concerning the investigation of police corruption in I believe Melbourne had the headlines, "Secret government document backs the defence." On further investigation it was revealed that this contract went back decades and they were only confirming it. They were quite surprised that folk felt that they should have sent a copy to the media.
Young Scots joined the police force to provide Scotland with law and order. not be a target for the latest effort from the legal fraternity to earn a few bucks. If you give them the right backup, remove
most of the PC legislation then you will back the singing, dancing and kicking constabulary that us old guys always loved. If you have any small pockets of corruption left anywhere, well, just hang the b*st*rds.

97

conservative,

Fife 19/02/2007 08:18:57

There would be more regard for the law if there were fewer lawyers who will use any legal manoevre to get a clearly guilty criminal let off - where's the justice in that sort of scam?

A corrupt profession if ever one was.

98

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 19/02/2007 20:10:41

# Guje, Annies´ mother

That is a disgrace what happened. Certainly I would try the FOI Commissioner if I were you ..

The Scotsman could do something on this too .. hope they read this.

99

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 19/02/2007 20:49:08

Ref To Colin R Bearsden

Your comments and links to SACL are well taken,
I have already found Mr Keegan on this site Admitting under oath that he does not always tell the truth.
I made numerous and serious allegations against him to Law Society claiming professional misconduct on his part and even claimed he lied to SCCRC, They done nothing, At the very least i would have expected them to ask SCCRC for their opinion? But no.
Mr keegan claimed i made personal threats to him and i complained to Law Society in this regard as i have not seen Mr Keegan or spoke to him since 1984, This is a totally fabricated allegation in his attempt to gain sympathy from the Law Society.
It does not surprise me to find Mr Keegan being prosecuted by the DTI.
It would seem he has also been involved in some other seriously controversial cases like Wullie Gage, and the Edinburgh Three who took a Judicial review against SCCRC.
Mr keegan sat on the Law Society board and is also a temporary Sherriff the other one involved in defending (Defectively) is also a Temp Sherriff.
Mr Sinclair from SCCRC who i also complained about sits on Law Society and has regular meetings with them and the Dean of Faculty
What chance do i have of getting a fair and independent hearing from all these people linked together.
The Dean of Faculty told me that it would not be safe to investigate my complaints of defective representation after all this time as most documents would be lost.
I have every document produced by the defence in my case, What they were actually saying is it would be unwise for them to proceed against The Lockerbie Bombers QC.
I firmly believe if my complaints had been directed towards any other QC then my case would have been investigated and referred back to appeal court years ago, Instead i am being treated the same way Shirley Mckie was treated and they are trying to cover up the wrongdoings in my case.

100

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 19/02/2007 20:59:53

SCCRC
Mr R,J Senior legal officer from SCCRC assured me that the Solicitor that handled my ID Parade was forwarded a copy of his own ID Parade Report (I tape recorded this as my feeling were they were not investigating fully)
I then phoned the Solicitor In Inverness and he confirmed my suspicions that the SCCRC had not sent him a copy of his own Report upon which he had written that: Witness No 11 had No 2 out his mouth without turning to view parade.
This was submitted to SCCRC with my further submissions 2005 and they still never sent the Lawyer a copy of his own ID Report.
They only sent this to him once they Knew i had tape recorded this and submitted a copy to them.
All this was done after they had concluded my case.
If anyone can tell me that this is their Robust, impartial and independent investigation which they profess to give every case then i will eat my hat live on You-Tube.
Their investigation into my case stinks to high Heavens and the two responsible for investigating it should resign if they are trying to claim i have had a fair hearing.

101

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 19/02/2007 21:34:02

Only A Few Comments on McKie
Firstly Why would our Government Pay £750.000 in compensation if it was right?
That as bad as Michael Jackson saying he did not molest Jordy Chandler but he still paid him Millions.
Before he resigned Colin Boyd's last ditch attempt to fram McKie if i remember right was to try and get some DNA from the fingerprint.
It was reported with such a shame that the McKie's were giving uo their fight for Judicial Inquiry, i do not however know if this is still the case.
Because maybe 8 witnesses have said the print is hers does not however mean they are correct.
Courts are like Plays and it is up to the Jury to decide who is the best Players.
You could have forty witnesses against you and none for you and still be found not gyilty.
It only takes one person to be caught telling lies and this discredits all the other evidence.
My own opinion of this case is that they tried to frame her and it backfired Big-Time.
One only has to look at the Sheridan fiasco to see that it does not matter how many witnesses are against you, you cannot predict the outcome of a jury verdict.

102

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 19/02/2007 21:45:46

With all the Hype about the FBI asking SFS to postpone their enquiry until after the Lockerbie trial and all the other revelations in this case, It is no surprise the Justice Minister is very keen to move on and have the matter swept under the carpet.
If they had been more open from the beggining instead of covering up their mistakes to suit the FBI and the Lockerbie case then maybe the public would not have given the matter a second thought.
But now it has created too much public opinion it is never to be forgotten.
Our Crown Office and Executive should be more open and Honest even when they make Mistakes instead of covering them up to save their embarrasment. Put up your hands and be man enough to admit your mistakes maybe then the public will have more trust in them

103

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 19/02/2007 23:25:13

Nearly Time To Vote Again.
Having tried to gain the help of the following MSPs in my fight for Justice i dont know who to vote for.
Labour, Gordon Jackson QC MSP, I was outwith his constituency.
Paul Martin did help but did not call for public enquiry , Would he go against another Labour Party in Cathy Jamieson justice Minister, Dont think so.
He told me he was not legally minded then i find out he sat on Justice 1 Committee with Jackson.
SNP Nicola Sturgeon did not even have the decency to answer my E-Mails. Went to her surgery she was running out her door fifteen minutes early saying she had no time to wait and see me, Pure ignorance if you ask me.
Kenny MacAskill He said i was outwith his constituency (This Being The lothians) Few days later Kenny is in the papers calling for enquiry into the Barlinnie KKK scandal. Is Barlinnie not outwith his constituency.
So Labour and SNP are out has anyone any other Ideas as to who i should vote for, and why?
Are all our MSPs afraid to stand up and be counted when it matters and not Just when it suits them.
Justice should be seen to be done and their new Miscariiage of Justice System in SCCRC is not working on a fair basis, This is a public concern if they vac be said to be acting unfairly as they are promoting and professing to cure Miscarriages.
Justice should be dispensed equally to all

104

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 20/02/2007 00:04:28

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos
Please view all comments some are basically my grounds of appeal others are mopinions


 

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