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Police charges expose great bigotry divide

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Published Date:
09 September 2007
THE full extent of Scotland's sectarian shame has been revealed in a shocking new report which shows offences of bigotry are up to 60 times more likely in Glasgow than much of the rest of the country.
Official Crown Office figures obtained by Scotland show that one in 500 people in Glasgow have been charged with a religiously aggravated offence since 2003, when the new offence was introduced.

That compares with a figure of one in 29,000 in the
Grampian region, where only eight incidents have been recorded in four years.

The figures were compiled following new laws, introduced in 2003, which allow the courts to increase a punishment for an offence if it can be proven the crime was motivated by religious hatred.

Many of the cases are thought to be breaches of the peace accompanied by sectarian abuse.

The figures show that almost all cases of sectarian hatred are confined to west central Scotland, despite claims by campaigners that the issue needs a nationwide solution.

After Glasgow, Lanarkshire is the second most common region for such offences, with one in every 1,472 people having been charged. Third is Ayrshire where the figure is one in every 2,156.

By contrast, only one person in every 13,933 has been charged in the Highlands and Islands, and one in 7,572 in Lothian and the Borders.

In total police have charged 2,154 people with a religiously aggravated offence since 2003.

That is well below the 4,346 charges recorded in 2006-2007 alone, in which the main cause of aggravation was deemed to be on race grounds.

The details come after former First Minister Jack McConnell put sectarianism at the top of his political agenda, organising two high-profile 'summits' between Catholic and Protestant leaders. He labelled sectarianism as Scotland's "secret shame", and backed policies which have seen lessons on anti-sectarianism given in primary schools.

But McConnell's successor, Alex Salmond, is now understood to have scrapped any future summits, in the belief that they gave sectarianism an importance it does not deserve. And the Catholic Church has argued that the summits were "meeting for meeting's sake".

Scotland's leading historian said last night that the disparity in figures could be explained by the flows of Irish immigration in the last century.

Tom Devine said: "The Aberdeen area, for example, has never really had a problem because these are problems caused by the historic flows of Irish immigration and, specifically, the crucial combination of Catholic Irish and Protestant Irish."

"In Dundee, there was very substantial migration but it was very homogeneous. There was very little Protestant flow so Orangeism therefore never really developed. In terms of per capita, Dundee wasn't that far behind Glasgow. But where you only got one group then you don't really have a problem".

He added: "It is remarkable that it has continued for so long when you consider that this is a very old migration."

Despite the findings last night, anti-sectarian campaigners said that a nationwide effort to tackle the problem was required.

A spokesman for the anti-bigotry campaign group Nil by Mouth added: "Some communities suffer more than others from the effects of religious bigotry, although higher population numbers and a particular drive against sectarian behaviour in areas such as Strathclyde must be considered when reading the statistics."

He added: "Much sectarian behaviour, while damaging, does not constitute a criminal offence. Figures such as these only paint a very limited picture of what is fundamentally a very human issue."

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government said: "We will work across Scotland as a whole - we believe that one religiously aggravated offence is one too many. There are no quick fixes - religious intolerance will not simply disappear over night - that is why we are committed to long-term action."

Separate figures on the number of convictions for a religiously aggravated offence were also released last week, showing that a total of 1,163 were brought - just over half the number of charges made by police.

The spokesman for Nil by Mouth said: "Nil by Mouth is concerned about the recent drop in the conviction rate on religious-aggravated offences. We urge the Scottish Executive to commission research to support a stronger and more consistent challenge against sectarian-related crime."



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1

I-Mac,

09/09/2007 00:31:57

The question is how many of these incidents were genuine examples of sectarianism aimed at a member of another religious group and how many were just drunks and/or neds ranting, often at police officers or other people whose religious background they didn't know?

As for the drop in the conviction rate, that could mean several things e.g. some ludicrous charges were being brought which were kicked out by the courts.

2

The Daleks,

09/09/2007 00:32:09

Sectarianism is most prevalent in Glasgow and Lanarkshire.

You're kidding!!

I don't think anyone needed a report to know that.

Just like we now have a fully blown Race Relations industry, costing plenty, would I be wrong in thinking that we are now seeing an attempt to set up an Anti-Sectarianism industry, to line the pockets of the PC campaigning/social working class?

Sectarianism will soon die a natural death as the influence of Christianity continues to wain.

We don't need huge sums of money spent on, what is for the most part, a bit of name calling.

3

MtnKat,

09/09/2007 00:47:18

Eddie Barnes is a two bit hack of the lowest rung. Just when I think he can't sink any lower, he slithers by on his belly.

4

MtnKat,

09/09/2007 00:50:16

......hissing and spitting

5

Lindsey,,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 03:00:39

boB10

?????

Time for your bed, I think.

Sneak up so your mum doesn't hear....ssshhhhhh...

6

USA Hibee,

09/09/2007 03:45:45

He is only reporting what the rest of Scotland knows to be true.
Glasgow`s shame NOT Scotland.

7

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 09/09/2007 03:55:05

The true figure would be greatly increased at an old firm game IF THE POLICE WERE BRAVE ENOUGH TO DO THEIR JOB, one can hear the sectarian songs miles away on an OLD FIRM gameday ..........

8

Guga II,

Rockall 09/09/2007 04:57:55

#7 Wise words. Pity you don't pay heed to them.

9

,

09/09/2007 05:04:21
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10

beeree,

09/09/2007 06:13:00

Gandalf tries to make this thread into a sectarian whinge of "you people are worse than our people". Who does it doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is that it happens.

To the article: Nil by Mouth seems, as #2 states, to be worried about losing their raison d'etre.

Tom Devine is making some very useful points but they reinforce an opinion I heard in South Wales that the Irish are one of the most insular races. Looking at Glasgow with its religious apartheid -seperate schools, youth clubs, pubs, clubs and football teams I believe he might have come to a very good conclusion.

11

Anne,

09/09/2007 06:36:30

Amalgamate Rangers and Celtic - that should do the trick!

12

clola,

east coast of india. 09/09/2007 06:58:09

I went to the local primary school, then on to the local high school.
Never met a catholic lad till i went to play county football at age 11. Met several there, decent lads.
At high school played county football, met some catholic lads there too, good footballers as well.

Left school after 4th year, went to merchant navy. Over the next several years knocked around with all sorts of guys, religion was seldom mentioned, found that half the guys were catholics, English irish Scots where-ever.
It initially was a surprise, then an enjoyment.

It is a kind of complex problem, but one thing for sure, keeping the schools apart is an abolute catastrophy for the young people. where and when are they ever able to communicate and therefore build confidences and then comradeship anpossibly friendships when they are kept completely apart.
Separate schooling for catholic children, in that bill of 1918 or when ever it was, was good ford the catholic church, possibly good for some children, catastrophic to scotland.

13

Mikey K,

09/09/2007 07:22:14

no sure about this - sectarianism is alive and well amongst the followers of the Lithuanian feeder team in Edinburgh. Gorgie Billy Boys anyone?

14

Riley Hamish,

EDINA 09/09/2007 07:22:42

#15 CLOLA
.and when do we get Volume2 of your-less-than-rivetting memoirs then, Mush.
I'll be sure to be near the top of the midnight queue at Waterstone's for that one, Eh !!
(Have another Pimm's and watch the sun go down, Sir !!!)

15

A Scott,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 07:40:58

# 5.........Bob 10.........Whits the SNP got do do with posts 3 and 4.........Jist an excuse by you for another totally irrelavant attack on the SNP by a unionist Numphty....

16

Bill C,

09/09/2007 08:00:31

A superficial document and a superficial argument by many. Relgious bigotry is not confined to Catholic/Protestant followers in Scotland. Buddhism, Jews, Hare Krishna, Mormons etc. etc. have all be subjected to "name calling" as an earlier poster observes on the streets of Scotland. Any attack or discriminatory behaviour on people for whatever religion they may follow is a disgrace is a civilised society and should be dealt with firmly.
One of the biggest gaps in the analytical process however is the inability of the Police statistics gatherers to determine whether an attack against an Islamic person or mosque, for example, is based on race or region and this failure will skew figures to a considerable extent.

17

clola,

east coast india Rajamundry. 09/09/2007 08:00:44

Problem is greater than your petty snobbery.
Cut the drivel, address a problem that blights all us scots. [I will have a few sherberts later, but only after tiffin.]

18

Boy Wonder,

09/09/2007 08:04:35

It's okay folks ... Eddie Barnes is leaving. It seems Hootsmon Publications have advertised for a new "political Editor". So he must be off soon ...

Can't take the heat, Eddie???

19

donald a,

weegieland 09/09/2007 08:21:50

Just ban the Old Firm. The bams wouldn't know what to do without them

20

Fat Freddys Cat,

09/09/2007 08:22:03

"shocking new report which shows offences of bigotry are up to 60 times more likely in Glasgow than much of the rest of the country."

Can something really be 'shocking' if it was entirely expected and no real surprise?

21

Conan,

Here 09/09/2007 08:32:13

Both sectarian sides are and have been at fault - one is not better than the other - but one thing we can all agree on is that Glasgow is the undisputed a$$hole of the western world - and happy at that.

22

Douglas,

Bathgate 09/09/2007 08:39:57

#23 Fat Freddys Cat: Licking a power cable you know is live.
I like it when the walk come to town and I get to laugh at the drunken pie muncher trying to induce a stroke by beating his bass drum. What a poster boy.

23

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09/09/2007 08:48:16
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zeno,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 08:59:40

William Frederick: I agree.

There is more bigotry in Glasgow that anywhere else in Scotland.

There are more religious schools in Glasgow than anywhere else in Scotland.

Therein lies not necessarily the cause, but the solution. Teach our children together, not segregated - that's the only way they will grow up to respect the diversity in our society.

25

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09/09/2007 09:04:11
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09/09/2007 09:07:44
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09/09/2007 09:12:27
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09/09/2007 09:15:37
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09/09/2007 09:17:14
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09/09/2007 09:19:36
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09/09/2007 09:20:52
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,

09/09/2007 09:23:47
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33

Feriens,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 09:35:58

Manic Molloy returns,the Opus Dei loony who just can't help himself it seems.

34

stewscott,

aberdeenshire 09/09/2007 09:42:56

all these catholics coming here from eastern europe isn't going to help. all encouraged by the catholic church, to evantually have scotland under their control.

35

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09/09/2007 09:43:34
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09/09/2007 09:48:09
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37

Walkerman,

09/09/2007 09:59:21

#38. Even as an agnostic, I feel your comment is a stupid one. Do you honestly believe that the influx of Eastern Europeans who are practicing Catholics will add to the problem of sectarianism? Or as you just trying to be racist as well? In my experience these people practice their religion quietly and respectfully. I don't believe they go in for sectarian chanting or any of the other neanderthal behaviours we see from our own native idiots.

Intelligent people don't get involved in sectarianism. Only the dregs of society, who have probably no understanding of what their religion is supposed to be about, will cause trouble over it. The terraces are full of them. They are just idiots (be they Catholics OR Protestants). The Eastern Europeans are mostly actively practicing their religion, which doesn't actually encourage loony ranting and fighting people of a different faith.

38

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09/09/2007 10:06:15
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39

mona,

09/09/2007 10:11:58

Religion is the route of all evil, how many wars have been fought over it!

40

eric,

Lothian 09/09/2007 10:14:59

Maybe thats bcause Glasgow is Scotlands largest city Doooooh!

41

Teary Ennui,

09/09/2007 10:19:19

#29,

As regards faith schools in England, there is a good deal of controversy about them. For example, one of the main teaching unions, the NAS/UWT, has opposed them, on the grounds that they are a divisive influence.

42

mona,

09/09/2007 10:20:05

44. yes, but we don't have the same problem in london.

43

JayJay,

Right here 09/09/2007 10:23:41

I just love the simple minded thinking that leads people to assume that it is all down to catholic schools and wouldn't Scotland just be a haven of harmony if the kids could just be educated together!
What a larf!
The next logical step of course would be to shut down all those disgraceful Catholic Churches. The very thought of what goes on inside them is just enough to drive some people to sectarianism. Indeed as number 38 points out, we have much to fear from an influx of Papists from Eastern Europe, under direct orders from the Vatican, trying to steal the country back. Nasty Kaffliks, all out to convert us with their beads and ungodly sacrifices!
Don't you people understand that sectarianism starts and ends at home? It is not taught, directly or indirectly, by faith based or non faith based schools. I just wonder what some of the contributors think happens at Catholic Schools - five periods per week of Proddie Hating?
I don't have any particular religious conviction, but it is a real mystery to me why for so many in this blighted land its the Catholic Schools that create the bigots...I take it then the products of non-denominational schools have nary a sectarian bone in their bodies? Or is sectarianism more to do with retarded parents and two Glasgow football clubs? Most sensible people know the real answer.

44

,

09/09/2007 10:43:15
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For a' that,

Braveheart Country 09/09/2007 11:01:00

Faith schools are a cancer in society. Phasing them out is a good first step jn creating a true mix of the people. Scotland has been blighted wih this corrupt system for far too long.
Remove religion from schools and teach true humanity in its place, not some version from a book that barely stands up to scrutiny.
There are no proestant or catholic children----they are children of protestant or catholc parents who perpetuate bigotry and delude themselves and others.
True humanity does not need religion as a crutch.

46

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09/09/2007 11:04:00
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,

09/09/2007 11:07:20
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FreeAethist,

09/09/2007 11:15:57

Simple solution- become a secular (independent) democracy. My family were on the receiving end of much Proddy discrimination (being natives, and Catholic to boot). Religion should be a completely private affair.

49

FreeAethist,

09/09/2007 11:17:05

Oh, forgot to add... ditch religious schools of all persuasions- Christian, Jewish, Islamic etc.

50

busbyfh,

09/09/2007 11:33:43

# 2
Why blame the strife on Christianity ?
The trouble makers use "History" purely as an excuse for tribalism and violence - It no longer has anything to really do with religion.
These idiots use religion as an excuse - No more religion/christianity would make colour the next "reason" - or maybe wee folk and big ones - Anything to be able to cause trouble.

51

busbyfh,

09/09/2007 11:38:49

# 47
Why would bringing kids up in the same school therefore thinking they were all the same and nobody was different do any damage to society.
If more people had friends from an early age of different religions and colours do you not think society would benefit ?

52

,

09/09/2007 12:15:13
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53

Mikey,

09/09/2007 12:43:18

Bob10, nos. 5 &7.

Ypu really are quite stupid, aren't you? Who gave you the money for the computer? You obviously didn't work for it!

Now read your comments again and tell me you don't have learning diffuclties. I will reply to you one more time before drawing a close on any converstaion with you as I feel my time is better spent talking to people who, at least, have a modicum of common sense.

AM2, are you happy having this idiot on your side?

54

Eagle,

Drymen 09/09/2007 12:49:07

William Frederick ,

You are wrong pure and simple. There are no 'apartheid' schools. There is a Catholic sector which contains many children who are not Catholic and a non-denominational sector. (A member of the Church of Scotland would find much to comend in Catholic schools. )

This system called 'choice' and reflects the diversity of Scotland. No one is forced to go anywhere, as would happen in an 'apartheid' system. Black South Africans did not have this choice.

Please grow up.

55

JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 09/09/2007 12:59:40

#59
Ah the old it is ther choice reasoning.

So where is the choice for everyone else?

Where is te choice for a non-RC aspirng to be a head teacher in an RC school?

Where is the choice for a gay person to teach in an RC school?

If a school roll was almost full one place left and an RC family and a non-RC family wanted their child in that school, who would get in?

Where is the choice for a teacher not "in good grace" with the RC church?

Why should a non-elected person (usually the local priest) be given a say in who should and should not be "allowed" to teach in a school?

I am all for choice, you can choose to send your child to a school of any kind just do not ask the rest of society to subsidise it. If your only defence of te current education system which bishop devine has admitted is an enabler for sectarianism then it is very flimsy indeed, do you agree with the bishop is it a price worth paying?

56

Freethinker,

Penicuik 09/09/2007 13:23:22

There is a truth that many here fail to recognise - because it exposes their own prejudices.

Blaming Catholic schools for sectarianism is like blaming Blacks for racism or Jews for anti-semitism. Why? Because the vast majority of religious bigotry is directed towards the Scottish Catholic minority. From reading some of the other posts above you would think that it was the other way around with seried ranks of brainwashed Catholic kids seting forth to abuse and ill-treat the Protestant majority. Of course this does not happen.

Why is there no tradition of Catholic/Protestant tensions in Aberdeenshire or the Highlands? Why is there no trouble in England where there are hundreds of Catholic (and C of E) schools. The answer is simple although some here seem blind to the fact. In these areas there is no tradition of militant anti-Catholicism as represented by bodies such as the Orange Order, Apprentice Boys of Derry and, yes, some elements who attach themselves to Rangers Football Club (and whom, creditably, RFC now wish to cast adrift).

For historic reasons most will appreciate - Irish Catholic and Protestant migration brought additional religious tensions to Scotland - almost exclusively anti-Catholic. I say "additional" because anti-Catholic feelings were never far from the surface - a consequence of the Reformation. Ulster Protestants brought their anti-Catholic Orange lodges and populated the industrial heartlands and worked in the shipyards (including Harland & Wolff - a loyalist bastion), mines and steelworks.

I have a picture in a history book of an anti-Catholic pogrom where Protestant workers drove the small number of Catholics who worked there from the H & W shipyard in Belfast. Similar sentiments transferred across the Irish Sea to become entrenched in West Central Scotland.

I'll readily concede that faith-based schools are divisive - and that the RC hierarchy cling to them so strongly as it

57

JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 09/09/2007 13:29:53

#61

By far and away as the most pathetic post I have read in here for a long time.

People wanting children to be integrated and their kids attend the same schools as RC kids are in fact anti-RC.

I think you have exposed your own prejudice and stereotyping of a vast section of scottish society. Still if it suits your agenda.

58

Calum Crubag,

09/09/2007 13:36:52

The bigots in RC schools are generally the headteachers who toe the church line. Ordinary teachers and kids are very happy to mix with non-denominational counterparts. In Dalkeith, RC teachers are banned from even mixing with non-d teachers in the staffroom. A partition was put up to prevent this.

In parts of the Highlands and Islands not touched by the reformation, Catholics and 'Protestants' go to the same schools with no problems whatsover. Places like Barra, Erisky and Uist don't have devisive faith schools.

59

Freethinker,

Penicuik 09/09/2007 13:37:57

#62

I share your distaste of faith-based schools.

I also recognise where the source of most religious prejudice comes from in Scotland - and it's not from people who call themselves RC.

Do you know anything about Scottish history?

60

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09/09/2007 13:41:30
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Eustace,

UK 09/09/2007 13:43:29

I was Educated in England and I do not recall the question of Church of England Schooling, Roman Catholic Schooling etc. ever being an issue.

We simply accepted that that was the person's School.

It was never an issue.

62

Freethinker,

Penicuik 09/09/2007 13:45:43

#65

Whilst faith based-schools exist is is completely understandable and rational for the faith concerned to insist that the ethos of the school is maintained by recruiting and promoting from within.

I'm surprised there is a fuss about this - it's a no-brainer.

The problem disappears when faith-based schools disappear.

QED

63

Freethinker,

Penicuik 09/09/2007 13:47:53

#66

Absolutely - because there is no tradition (except in places such as Liverpool) of Orangeism and other anti-Catholic bigotry in the vast majority of English towns and cities.

64

JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 09/09/2007 14:02:12

Freethinker do you honestly believe the nonsense you type. I would hazard a guess that your knowledge of the loyal institutions could be written on the back of a stamp. Try reading the faithful tribe by ruth dudey edwards.

Surely the most bigoted act is to consider your faith "MORALLY" superior to all others and refer to them as being "defective"?

Surely one of the MOST bigoted things anyone can choose to do is divide children at the age of five by their faith?

#66 & 68.

A very convenient view of history, England had a fairly large indigenous RC population happy to see themselves as being English. The RC population in Scotland is mainly from another country and showed contempt for the indigenous host.

You also conveniently ignore the fact that faith based schools were partially blamed for the Bradford riots.

Still that is all in the past and whatever reason either side has for disliking the other, faith based schools in this period of time are contributing towards sectarianism, Bishop Devine admitted as much yet thinks it is a price wrth paying.

65

FreeAethist,

09/09/2007 14:06:52

I have an English (! yes, I am broad minded... joke) friend, CE of course, for whom Catholics were simply like.... well.. servants, lower classes etc. Of course it wasn't an issue #66- everyone knew their place (sarcasm intended). Ireland and Scotland, RC's had the temerity to expect to be treated like human beings, and institutional discrimination was/is embedded- eg Irish Catholics were excluded from a whole range of professions, and, gee, look at the Act of Succession- anyone but a Scot or a Catholic! The problem won't disappear until past injustices (and current) are addressed, and one way is to COMPLETELY separate Church (whatever persuasion) and State. As I always say, religion should be a completely private affair.

66

Freethinker,

Penicuik 09/09/2007 14:22:43

#69

JB - My goodness, have you not sussed it yet? ALL faiths believe that they have an exclusive right to truth and travel the correct path that God has set out for them. To them, everyone else is wrong and will no doubt suffer when they reach the fiery place. Sadly, many people die because of such narrow-minded prejudice. Religions operate in a marketplace and each sets out their respective "stalls". Poaching is encouraged and some faiths (such as Islam) like to hold onto their flock by threatening (and carrying out) death to those who leave the faith (apostacy).

Are you seriously suggesting that the FTP brigade really think about theological and doctrinal differences before launching into the Sash or Bill Boys? Get real my myopic friend!

If you don't think that the "Loyal Institutions" (always think that phrase gives them a sense of dignity and respectibility they barely deserve!) are anti-Catholic then you really should not be posting here. I suggest a visit to a good library - or get Google-ing!

Ah - the truth will out. In addition to being anti-RC you are also anti-Irish. Now why am I not surprised.

Please read my posts again - I do not support faith-based schools. I also don't support bigotry!

By the way - care to share with us what particular loyalist organisation you are a member of?

67

Freethinker,

Penicuik 09/09/2007 14:23:55

#70

Abso-bloody-lutely! Spot on!

68

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09/09/2007 14:30:14
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Freethinker,

Penicuik 09/09/2007 14:34:57

#73

WF - do you accept that most religious hatred in Scotland is directed towards - rather than emanating from- Scotland's RC minority?

P.S. I'll give you a wee clue - the official stats confirm this.

P.P.S. I'm happy to support your call for an end to state-funded faith-schools. Having read many of your previous posts I might, however, question your motives.

70

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09/09/2007 14:55:24
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JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 09/09/2007 15:07:08

#71

I am not a member of any, not that it is any of your business, then again that is typical stereotyping.

"Are you seriously suggesting that the FTP brigade really think about theological and doctrinal differences before launching into the Sash or Bill Boys? Get real my myopic friend! "

Reading a bit much into my post are you not?

"If you don't think that the "Loyal Institutions" (always think that phrase gives them a sense of dignity and respectibility they barely deserve!) are anti-Catholic then you really should not be posting here. I suggest a visit to a good library - or get Google-ing! "

I think it is you who needs to do a bit of reading as already recommended to you RDE was a Dublin born RC so had nothing to gain from writing the faithful tribe in the manner she did. To say there are no anti-RC's in the Loyal Institutions would be like saying there are not RC bigots within their faith either and I made no such claim.

Pleas explain how I am both anti-RC and anti-Irish, I really do think you read way too much between the lines, then again when you have a preconcieved notion of people it is far easier to dismiss them by stereotyping them.

72

eric,

09/09/2007 15:10:04

46.I believe we are taliking about Scotland!
Glasgow Scotlands largests City =more crime
London Englands largest city=More crime
London Britains largest city =more crime END

73

SOFBTRC,

Far, far from Glasgow 09/09/2007 15:19:20

The replies on this thread provide a reasonable overview of a cross-section of Scotland.

On the one hand we have people from outside Glasgow, and a few from within Glasgow, who understand just why single-figure IQs, knuckles that drag on the ground, a separate school system, parental ignorance at home, and the bigot brothers (Old Firm), are all integral slices of the religious sectarian pie.

On the other, we have the knuckle-dragging, single figure IQ, separately "educated" season ticket holders who spew out either excuses or abuse using words of one syllable or fewer.

You can try and validate your views all you like - but the fact remains you are a pathetic breed from a different century. Thank goodness it's impossible for you to remain hidden even before you open your mouths, as the curly perm and moustache and/or one shoe give you away.

74

JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 09/09/2007 15:29:36

#75

Some stats here.

http://www.crownoffice.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/9/0000077.pdf

A section of the commuinity which makes up 15-18% commited 31% of the crimes. Does that mean they are twice as likely to commit a sectarian crime. Also the majority of it was for breah and directed at the arresting officers.

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09/09/2007 15:31:48
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09/09/2007 15:34:50
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Braes of Glenmiller,

Not singing any more 09/09/2007 15:37:23

I was brought up especially by my father to actively dislike Roman Catholics. Then my brother married one...lol. The old boy nearly didn't go to the wedding.

One thing I never understood was WHY? Consequently I came to look at people as just that, people, and never again questioned their religious preferences.

Scotland persists in having separate Catholic and "State" schools. This should be abolished in a country where most of the population only attends church for weddings or funerals.

There is no excuse for sectarianism today, and "holier than thou" attitudes from people in Eastern Scotland don't resolve the problem, merely brush it under the Morningside carpet.

I come from the East of Scotland, and it's there if you scratch under the surface. We should all be ashamed and try to rid our society of this unnecessary evil.

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JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 09/09/2007 15:53:13

#87

No I think Police are most likely to be victims of sectarian crime. Depends how you spin it I suppose.

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Eustace,

UK 09/09/2007 16:49:58

One of the first occasions upon which one of my children (a Baby) was abused here was in the Church of Scotland Creche.

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livilion,

livingston 09/09/2007 17:11:09

I was born in Glasgow and raised in Lanarkshire.
My parents from an early age would describe how the kids who went to the catholic schools would aye fight with the kids from the proddy schools.

They got more days off school for saints days, when they would wait outside the gates and make the proddy kids 'run the gauntlet'.
A bad lot altogether.

My mother's best pal the catholic girl next door 'had to go to mass on a Sunday or the local Irish priest would come to the house and give them a right good hiding, some of those priests were gey sadistic'.
Queer folk those catholics, I always thought.
In exactly the same way we talk about Islamic extremists nowadays in fact.

In the days before fake tan, my Grandparents were Orange and some of my uncles were too, but some of my other uncles married catholics.
One even married a black nurse, but that was 'just a bit odd'.
None of them had ever met a 'coloured' person back then.

It was years before some of them were allowed into either set of parent's houses, such was the shame.

As a kid the worst possible swear word was 'fenian', or properly 'fenian b**t**d'.
It was by all accounts a helluva way to die.

Can you imagine my astonishment years later to meet a colleague in Dublin who described himself as a fenian? Not only that, he said he was a protestant!
My head was sent spinning with that information.

At one time in my late teens I had a green car and had been 'going steady' for some time with a catholic girl, I was even introduced to the local priest.

Clearly I must have been a 'cuckoo in the nest'.

All this mutual mistrust and suspicion just because some kids were not to be contaminated by exposure to the likes of me and my school chums and so had to have special schools built for them so that we never met.

One in 500 arrested for sectarian offences? How many of those were the same people arrested time after time?

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Eustace,

UK 09/09/2007 17:12:47

95
Why do you have such an obsession about different types of School?

There are too many children for them all to go to the same School.

In order to attempt to make them all exactly the same it is necessary for you to be very controlling.

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SPG,

09/09/2007 17:27:02

I blame the Glasgow slum clearances.

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Eustace,

UK 09/09/2007 17:27:37

96
Many people die from Cancer irrespective of their Lifestyle.

Mistrust, Suspicion and Dislike can exist whatever the person's Religion.

My husband comes from Glasgow and one of our children was allocated a Celtic Strip for the purposes of a School Self Portrait which was hung on the School wall.

Because he did not bring a Football Strip to School.

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Jo Jo,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 17:37:26

Hey james/Lincoln/Molloy/finance chief (ex)/religious bigot/fascist and supporter of terrorism.

No one takes your views seriously so why bother trying to prove your so called intellectual superiority?

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SMC,

09/09/2007 18:25:12

James,

sad, sad, pretentious, hypocritical bigoted little JamesyBhoy.

Did you really take the time to register on FollowFollow?

Now why would a good, Pope-fearing bhoy like yourself do that?

Was it just to be offended, JamesyBhoy?

I think we should be told.

What was your user-name on FF by the way?

Oh and did I mention that you're a bigot.

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Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 18:25:35

#26 Williiam........ I completely agree with you. When " all the children go to the one school" "would it be to much to ask" for the complete abolishion of the anti-Catholic British act of settlement1701.All the children in the same school would then be equal in the eyes of the state.At this time and moment anti Catholic laws are part of the make up of the British state. I think it is now time for a complete separation of church and state here in Britain as this would end state sponsored sectarianism.

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SMC,

09/09/2007 18:32:43

Great come-back JamesyBhoy.

What was your user-name on FF?

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SMC,

09/09/2007 18:46:53

Methinks JamesyBhoy has scarpered.

It's a shame because sanctimonious hypocrites like him are great entertainment.

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Eustace,

United Kingdom currently NE Scotland 09/09/2007 19:03:56

The incidents to which I referred occurred in the Church of Scotland Creche and a School which by the definition applied here would probably be regarded as Non-Segregated.

The Identity of Celtic Supporter was allocated to the Child on the basis of difference.

I have an English Accent and my husband comes from Glasgow.

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09/09/2007 19:06:12
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Eustace,

United Kingdom currently NE Scotland 09/09/2007 19:10:38

I never suffered the abuse which my children suffered here when I was at School.

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Eustace,

United Kingdom currently NE Scotland 09/09/2007 19:13:21

123
Being an ignorant English Woman and "Not from around here" I have no idea what you are talking about but maybe you can explain to me.

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SOFBTRC,

Far, far from Glasgow 09/09/2007 19:43:08

Why do all you weegie w@nkers need to ruin every single fuqin discussion thread in this paper with your sectarian nonsense? In fact, why does the Scotsman continue to offer this facility to you at all?

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Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 19:52:47

#114 William. You are obviously uneducated. The Queen of England does not legislate for the Anglican church, she is but a figurehead. The Pope legislates for the Catholic church so we can assume that a Catholic would be best suited for the job of Pope. Incidentlly. I made no point about the Protestant church and terrorism. Just put the whisky bottle down for a moment. I noticed that you completely avoided the point I was makeing. There are two reasons for that. One of the reasons is that you know that I am right and that your smokescreen about the "Kaflic schools" does'nt wash anymore.The second reason being that you are an ignorant sectarian bigot . Your posts thus far have been completely childish and I think that it is time for your nanny to put you into the cot. Goodnight from Hunkey Dorey the fearless Scottish Protestant Republican and supporter of the Irish Republican movement. Three cheers for Gerry Adams hip-hip,and Martin McGuinness,hip-hip(thats the same Martin who is deputy first minister in the six county government) HOoray

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Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 09/09/2007 20:05:05

127# William...... Just before you go to your cot! Scotland is my country,and I am proud of it . Some of our poulace "have a pull for the old country"(Ireland) because bigots such as you have made them unwelcome in the land of their birth.So to hell with all you sectarian bigots ,Scotland does not want you as her sons. Now, go to your cot. Phoblacht na Alba go bragh.

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GD,

I've heard it all now 09/09/2007 20:52:16

The great never ending battle of the brainwashed.

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livilion,

livingston 09/09/2007 23:40:59

126. Hunky Dorey, Glasgow

You don't say?

You know that's exactly what my pal in Dublin said too.
He even said that the 'left footers' were all right footed.

Things you learn...

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livilion,

livingston 09/09/2007 23:46:42

128. SOFBTRC, Far, far from Glasgow

I know, what's it like with these guys all wanting to bring religion into sectarianism, that's what gives it a bad name?

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livilion,

livingston 10/09/2007 01:06:00

126. Hunky Dorey, Glasgow
I feel I have to correct you on a technical point.

In Dublin you may well be called a fenian b and that it could be addressed to a protestant.

Being called that by someone on this side of the Irish sea and no matter how well versed you are in history you can be sure of two things: the person using it is not a catholic but thinks you are, and that he does not wish to discuss the finer points of Irish republicanism with you.

For no particular reason other than to show off my surely impressive knowledge on the subject, and ability to google, I understand that there was considerable discussion and fallings out over the role of the 'Irish' monarchy in the early days of the Irish Free State 1922-37.
Interesting conspiracy theories abound over the motives for the earlier theft of the Irish 'crown jewels'.

A study of this period of Irish history might be quite illuminating when considering the present situation in Scotland as regards the general desire expressed to implement 'devolution max', precedent set by Whitehall, and the future roll of the monarch in a future independent Scotland.

Aye I know, chance would be the thing.

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Anthony,

Glasgow 10/09/2007 08:29:00

There's no doubt there is a serious problem that needs dealing with. The difficulty is the institutions being used to try and resolve it. Once bodies start getting set up with public funds to fight specific issues through these bodies, control is totally lost over the problem. It will always be in their interests to exaggerate and hype up problems, so that they can present themselves as having dealt with it, when the truth eventually comes out.

'Police initiatives' forinstance to 'fight racism' seem to consist of drunks having a racism charge attached onto their drunk and incapble ones. It seems to be the poor in run down areas who get targeted, as a result of the police "promising" an ethnic minority member of their committee in Strathclyde, to convict more white people for racism! But the police get extra funding to do this. In a way it's unfair to pick on the police, because its endemic right across our public sector, and public sector funded organisations.

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Jo Jo,

10/09/2007 15:04:13

I don't need to disguise myself James/Lincoln/Molloy/The James poster on FF.Ex council worker.Ex finance worker.

Unlike some eh James??

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Armstrong Cowan,

Germany 10/09/2007 15:06:19

#31 James
#36 William Frederick

Now stop slagging each other. Scotland 3 - Lithuania 1 ... Now is anyone out there asking our team which schools they went to? Surely the most impotant thing is to get an education that takes you above this childish name calling. James as you will have suspected- I want to leading school in Glasgow and a quarter of my class were Jewish, In nine years at that school I never heard a derogatory word about Catholics or any other group. Since it was such a good school Glasgow's
socialist one party state government closed it!
Education is the only answer.

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Armstrong Cowan,

Germany 10/09/2007 15:07:11

"went to a Leading" sorry

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JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 10/09/2007 15:19:54

#133

"The Irish are in Scotland."

Northern and or Southern?
How long have they been here, how many years/generations before they are scots?


"Catholics are in Scotland."

What kind "Roman" or "Irish"?

Catholic schools are in Scotland.

"Roman"?

None of them are going away.

How can a school go away?
Have you been doing the crystal ball gazing for long?

"Slainte." nice one.

Some fantastic bait there, all this stuff about Scotland and Ireland from somebody in England.

Just as well I know you are joking, nobody could be so unintentionally funny.

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Iwama,

10/09/2007 15:20:27

134 hunky dorey (pains me mispelling it this way!)
Can I ask where in the name of everything do you get off spouting the utter nonsense that some of the "poulace" "have a pull for the old country"(Ireland) because bigots such as you have made them unwelcome in the land of their birth".
That is utterly laughable.Sad, daft and laughable and you really ought to get out more.
This strikes me as a man who isnt even brave enough to stand up for what he is and what he wants, just hiding behind a nonexistant bogey man and pulling sectraian rabbits out the hat. No-one wants your Irish bigotry in Scotland. Scotland is a cosmopolitan country no Scot should ever "have a pull" based on the reasons you stumble over.
Not even a coherent arguement.

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Iwama,

10/09/2007 15:39:05

#133 Ah James.
"The Irish are in Scotland.

Catholics are in Scotland.

Catholic schools are in Scotland.

None of them are going away"

Its uncanny how every single time I come on to the Scotsman threads, the above or a version of it seems to be your thread end-game. I couldnt care less about where you are from or what user ids you alternate between, but its really quite something reading the complete lack of compromise on your behalf, aligned with the normal antagonistic and destructive traits you bring to these debates. Suggestion, why not leave these threads for a week or two and see what other people can achieve without you? I dont think Im alone is wishing it might happen just once.

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JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 11/09/2007 08:04:17

#153

I seriously doubt that. nobody could get the measure of you, infallable springs to mind.

How does that saying go about a 100 monkeys for a hundred years and a hundred typewriters, well anyway even they would struggle to a much of a last word freak as you typing so much inane drivel that you really don't believe in.

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Jo Jo,

11/09/2007 08:09:00

Nice try James.
The point about freedom of speech is lost on you and the power brokers of your religion.
If you and they had their way there would be no freedom of thought or speech.
Fascism is about control of the hearts and minds.
Sectarian schools are about controlling the hearts and minds of young and impressionable children.
Face facts.You live in a secular society where religion doesn't play the part you and your cohorts would like it to.
All this rubbish about morals and guidance is absolute baloney.
Faith schools exist to keep children of that faith away from other faiths.
Indoctrination is the key aim of ANY religion.The leaders do not and will not tolerate outside views being allowed to corrupt or influence the flock.

As others have already said.You are the one continuing to peddle outdated opinions backed up by ....er...nothing.

You registered on opposing football boards simply to stir up animosity and hatred under the guise of "banter".
The jolly old craic as they say.

Look deep within yourself and you'll see you are just as "bigoted" or "tolerant" as the rest of us.
No better,no worse.

The difference is though that some of us can see our faults and can see where society goes wrong.

Others simply cannot and will not admit their failings.

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Iwama,

11/09/2007 08:43:46

Jings James "And I'm the only one you can say that about on this thread? Oops, there goes you're credibility as a neutral observer!" I pick on you because you're implying Im not a neutral observer? Talk about missing my point and misrepresenting it?
Dont flatter yourself I'm picking on you, I just note that invariably you are in the thick of dragging threads down and forcing them down a hackneyed and tired old route that a few are a bit sick of. Does whatever cause you would champion a bit of a disservice.As you say, people shouldnt have their opinions suppressed and you are entirely entiteld to express them of course, but try and let a thread develop a bit maybe? And by the way, whilst I dont agree with seperate schooling, I can tell you that the type of "arguement" you promote doesnt convince me in the slightest that my view is wrong. Far from it, as it seems the tactic is to attack, play the sectarian card(in one of its various guises) and walk away back slapping the tag team with another ecumenical job well done. Merits there may be, aggresive arguements aint the way to win people over.

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SMC,

11/09/2007 16:40:35

JamesyBhoy,

did your user-name on FF have the numbers 1690 at the end by any chance?

Ah, to be sure, you had us all fooled, you jolly craicster broth of a bhoy.

JamesyBhoy1690 - the most demented, unintentionally hilarious poster in cyberspace.

T'be sure.

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JamesBrown,

Sunny Govan 12/09/2007 07:59:41

#163

Well james you cannot really believe that it is acceptable to murder innocent children, you cant really believe in dividing children by faith not contributing to sectarianism in Scottish society. Do you?

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Iwama,

12/09/2007 08:26:04

#168 James "I would say the Catholic school-bashing is the "hackneyed and tired old route," although clearly there are a few who are far from sick of it" -- Disagree and from my perspective (as its me its directed at) that isnt true.

"Shall I ask your permission to enter the debate next time? Incidentally, I was not the one who first mentioned Catholic schools." -- Lets not kid ourselves here, juvenile patter from you about permission aside, if there is a search facility on here, I think it wouldnt be a surprise to read the actual words posted by you. This isnt an accustaion before you have my eye out with a Teddy, a mere statment of fact.the suggestion to let it develop was a sincere one. Let even just one thread develop and we may see the real root of it.I suspect the lure will be too much for you and the old cut/paste will be hammering away again


"Here's the thing - I don't need to win you over. The schools are there and the onus is on you to prove they should not be if you want rid of them (is it OK that I said that? Or is it too triumphal for you?)."

I never said you had to win me over James. I know the schools are there but I also want a reasonable debate on the subject,. not the words/tone you use to try and win people over.If your position is to defend seperate schooling at all cost, it adds nothing and isnt a debate. There is no "onus on me" to do anything.Its a democracy, and people have the right to ask why we have them based on evidence.They also deserve to have that view respected and not be subjected to "triumphal" posts like
""The Irish are in Scotland.

Catholics are in Scotland.

Catholic schools are in Scotland.

None of them are going away"

Remember them? Methinks you cant see the wood for the trees and want to get stripped to the cyber waist every time someone has the temerity to even hint that Roman Catholic schooling

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Louis Davout,

North of the Seine 12/09/2007 13:23:13

5,7 &10 Bob10

Have to tell you that the dosage you are taking is losing its effect. Up the dosage, mon ami, before you are re-admitted to Leverndale!

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Louis Davout,

North of the Seine 12/09/2007 13:37:22

5,7 &10 Bob10

Have to tell you that the dosage you are taking is losing its effect. Up the dosage, mon ami, before you are re-admitted to Leverndale!

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stevek28,

philadelphia/prestwick 13/09/2007 23:56:44

Fat Freddys Cat:and they say that Yanks can't do sarcasm

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Lastsocialist,

Paris, France 14/03/2008 23:18:31
Why does Scotland remain such a bigoted and backward country?

 

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