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McConnell U-turn on business tax pledge

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Published Date: 17 September 2006
A BID to slash taxes for businesses north of the Border has been effectively shelved by ministers less than 12 months after it was announced, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
The flagship plan, which would have reduced business rates for firms which invest in research and development, has been "reined in", according to senior sources, after it proved too difficult to implement.

First Minister Jack McConnell put forward the proposals last year, saying they would "make Scotland the most attractive place in the UK in which to invest in research and development".

Ministers promised to consider introducing the move along with a wider bid to reduce business rates for all firms to the levels currently set in England.

However, several senior business leaders have been privately told by officials that it will not be forthcoming. Instead, ministers are understood to be looking at new ways to provide help.

The move was seized on by opposition parties last night. Murdo Fraser, enterprise spokesman for the Scottish Tories, said: "They have been left with egg on their faces because it is very difficult to implement."

The plan was put forward by McConnell as a way of tackling Scotland's historically low levels of research and development, which is seen as crucial to keeping Scotland's economy competitive.

However, it is understood that civil servants warned almost immediately after McConnell's pledge that the plan would fall foul of European Union trade rules. And business groups are said to have been cool on the plan from the start, fearing that it would create a huge amount of bureaucracy.

A draft document containing the plan was supposed to have been published last December, but has been postponed on at least two occasions as officials attempt to come up with policies which will work.

Finance minister Tom McCabe also claimed last year that the plans would be finalised by this summer, a deadline which has now also passed.

One senior Executive source confirmed that ministers had run into difficulties in finding a policy which would actually improve the lot of businesses.

"It has not been easy to progress because we have a very limited palette of options," the source said. "The cut in business rates for R&D was always an intent rather than a policy. There is now an ongoing attempt to find the best way forward. We need to find an effective way of doing this."

One business insider added: "It has been reined back. It was a good wheeze, but it seems they then showed it to their civil servants who pointed out some of the problems. They are now looking at alternative things to do. The problem is, how do you define research and development? If a finance company comes along, having developed a new service, could they apply?"

Business groups last night called for ministers to act on their year-old pledge to help boost research and development without delay.

A spokesman for the Confederation of British Industry said: "The key points are that any new scheme is implemented sooner rather than later, is simple to access, and generous if it is to make a substantial impact. Such a move has the potential to stimulate private sector investment."

A spokesman for the Federation of Small Businesses said: "It does appear that the Executive have run into difficulties in terms of how to implement the scheme. For small businesses, any scheme - whether it be for research and development, or for tax credits or whatever - there is always an issue because the bureaucracy is too complex."

Figures show investment in research and development in Scottish firms lags at £319 a year per employee, compared with £702 per employee across the UK. Such research is crucial if businesses are to innovate and expand, thereby keeping up with their international competitors.

The announcement on cutting business rates for such firms was paraded by McConnell last September to Parliament, when he revealed he would be bringing business rates in line with England.

He then told MSPs: "Oh, there is more. Because we want to provide further incentives that will give Scotland a competitive advantage, we will consider carefully a specific reduction in business rates for research and development intensive companies. In doing so, we will make Scotland the most attractive place in the UK in which to invest in research and development."

Fraser, for the Tories, said: "The Executive have been made to look foolish on this. They made a commitment, but when it comes to working out the detail they realise they can't do it. Then they hope that it will quietly go away.

"This was announced as a flagship plan last year for business, but the Executive clearly didn't do their homework.

Businesses who do invest in research and development and who were hoping for rate reductions as a result will be left disappointed."

Page 1 of 1

 
1

scottwebb,

17/09/2006 00:11:06

Independence please

2

Pete W,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 00:39:56

I second that. Until the Scottish Parliament is forced to take real responsibility for what happens here, this kind of nonsense will persist.

3

Wisnaeme,

Coventry 17/09/2006 03:20:23

Difficulties in implementation was it? Perhaps ignorance,incompetance and downright lack of Labour Follywood insight of what is and what is not possible or practical is to blame for yet another difficulty of Labour "Implantation." More broken promises from Labour and their"Smart, Successful Scotland." Aye, I wish; if only we didn't have such numpties in charge.Maybe that nice Mr Jim Mathers could give them some useful advice on what's best practice for a "Smart, Successful Scotland. But of course they woundn't volunteer themselves to disappear down the pan, would they? Pity, they would be in the comparable company of other like detritus down there.I really dispair when we take it for granted that our all talking, all dancing muppets in the Scottish Executive are mince and we seem to think that as a normality and to be expected of the creatures.. I couldn't trust them to to fulfil the ambition of being a hole in a dough nut,so I couldn't. Shallow and pathetic creatures made of straw so they are.Yet, next May they'll have the impudence to inform the Scottish nation that Labour are best for a "Smart, Successful Scotland and would the Scottish voters like more of the same? Maybe we should add gullibility to the list of perceived, well known Scottish traits.

4

Guga,

Rockall 17/09/2006 05:53:19

Joke McConnell does it again.

How difficult could it be to ensure business rates in Scotland are on a par with those in England?

We will only get a level playing field in this and other things when we get independence.

5

SC,

Dundee 17/09/2006 07:10:48

Are business rates coming down to English levels or not?

Typical of socialist trying to meddle in private business. They want to annoint from yon high 'good business', and 'bad business'.

Why not just cut the taxes for all and watch Scotland thrive!

Conservatives, how dare you oppose further devolution when this is what limited powers delivers!

6

Mike Mackenzie,

Argyll 17/09/2006 07:39:26

Another typical New Labour mess.Even if this policy could have been implemented it would have massively increased bureacracy associated with business and made our tax system even more complicated than it already is.Ill conceived nonsense from an executive with no ideas at all.

7

Douglas,

bathgate 17/09/2006 07:59:51

Stewart#5; They may be a lot of things buddy, but they ain't socialists.

8

Gordon,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 08:11:32

Scottish business rates have been set higher than English rates for many years, not just since the introduction of devolution...........the UK has never had an even ball park.

9

Dougie - Edinburgh,

17/09/2006 08:33:37

Stewart (5) said it all. The real problem with business in Scotland is too much bureaucracy rather than too little R&D. And Douglas (7) the tendency to increase bureaucracy by state interference in the private sector is a socialist impulse.

Cutting taxes would indeed be a worthy though difficult goal. Cutting bureaucracy could be much easier.

10

Robert Feal-Martinez,

Swindon 17/09/2006 08:37:12

Gordon is right there is no even ball park. I do not people protesting that the capita per head for Scotland under the Barnet foumula is 3 times what it is in England. By all means lets have equality but not selective. Do I need to this the things the Barnet inequality has bought the people of Scotland, like free elderly care, no student fees etc. If things are really so unfair then the option is a simple one vote Scottish Nationlist at the next election and have your independence but I would suggest you would be far worse off.

11

John1,

Stirling 17/09/2006 08:45:32

If the numpties in the Follyrood Embarrassment can't get it right now, what on earth would they do if they had even more powers. Independence? Nuts.

12

The Strategist,

17/09/2006 08:55:27

Not surprised by this move. They probably need the cash to pay for the smoking wardens!

And more seriously.... The idea of reducing business rates only for companies that underake R&D was always doomed to fail because it would be difficult to implement properly to the satisfaction of the bureaucrats.

What we really need are not just cuts in business rates across the board but also cuts in corporation tax.

That said, "Smart Successful Scotland" was always doomed to fail. To achieve that you don't just need good universities, smart SMEs etc but a financial services sector that's prepared to put up a reasonable supply of risk equity capital. That's not happening and there are no signs that it will happen.

13

Ian G,

17/09/2006 08:58:03

Any normal country sets it's own tax rates which suits!

No normal country has it's rates and business tax set by a region or other country.
An Independent Parliment please.
Its right for Finland.
Its right for Denmark.
Its right for Austria.
Its right for Sweden.
Its right for Southern Ireland.
Its right for Norway.
Its right for New Zealand.
ITS RIGHT FOR SCOTLAND ALSO.

14

Resolutions,

17/09/2006 09:06:33

And it is right for Iceland
right for Luxembourg
Right for Estonia
Right for Slovakia
Right for Lithuania
Right for Canada
Right for Latvia
And it is RIGHT for Scotland too
INDEPENDENCE NOW
before any more mess made!
London pulling strings is just too obvious now!

15

Duncan,

Tobermory 17/09/2006 09:17:11

It was probably on the same sheet of paper that said they would employ 600 new doctors in the SNHS before this October. Wrong.
Promises Promises.

16

Jimmy Krankie,

Paisley 17/09/2006 09:22:34

Another fine idea in action by the Socttish Executive. The same executive who wanted to make November 31 a national holiday to celebrate St. Andrews day.

Independence - these people couldnt run a 'piss up in a brewery'.

17

Marac,

17/09/2006 09:23:30

I believe the SNP are proposing to introduce a policy that would abolish business rates for small businesses with a rateable value of £8000 and below, 50% business rate relief between £8001 and £10,000, and 25% relief for businesses with a rateable value between £10K and £15K.
A much more sensible policy that would help to reduce the burdens that can hold back small businesses and in turn will stimulate the wider economy.

18

Steve McGregor,

Inglewood, L.A 17/09/2006 10:27:50

As an American of Scottish origin, I m very aware of whats going on back in the UK. I think Blair should go soon, and if we want to have a competent and prosperous britain, Jack McConnell should become Prime Minister after blair is gone. I know many people will dispute this, but if you check on scottish labour record and achievement in Scotland, Im sure that Mr. McConnell could make the UK as succesful as Scotland. All britons, we have to use this talent, the guy is soo great.
Viva Jack McConnell.

19

Allen,

Glasgow 17/09/2006 10:38:46

I think this is typical of Joke McConnell and Co, they open there mouth and spurt something non achievable, instead, the proper and normal course would be to ask"is it a achievable" if yes, then announce to the public.

This I have to say puts another nail in the coffin of a poor thinking Executive. This idea would be achievable if Scotland was Independent outside the EU and a small change in legislation.

# 18 Stay in LA mate, your obviously we suited over there -full of bullshitters and flakers.

Independence the only way.

Allan

20

julien brellier,

17/09/2006 10:44:35

lets reform the monster raving loony party and vote them into power, they couldnt make more of a balls up than Jack surely.

21

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 11:01:12

#23 Gavin
I agree - I'm sure one of the Old Monster Raving Loony Party's policies was that everyone would get a free bottle of champagne on their birthday. At least we'd see what we were getting for our money! And it would be a nice day!!

22

Sanny,

Ex-Pat Scot 17/09/2006 11:26:21

Come on you lot. Who elected this trash into power? I, unfortunately, no longer have a vote in Scotland so I can’t affect the political situation, but you, the electorate can!

Come May throw them out without ceremony. Vote SNP, even if don’t like any of their policies, other than independence. When independence is achieved the SNP will go to the country and you will have the opportunity to elect the MP of your choice.

The SNP is your only guarantee of independence. Even so the English Parliament will try to delay and to strip Scotland of its Assets. Don’t Allow This. Vote SNP with a large Majority so that Westminster is left in no doubt of the will of the Scottish people.

23

jdships,

17/09/2006 11:51:43

" The flagship plan, which would have reduced business rates for firms which invest in research and development, has been "reined in", according to senior sources, after it proved too difficult to implement. "

Who finds it difficult to implement ?
Explanation please First Minister or are you , as usual, going to "Hide behind the uniform and the rule book" to defend the indefensible ?
This smacks of complete incompetence on the part of supposdly educated , intelligent people .

I have had the misfortune to spend some time in the company , socially, of one or two New Labour MSP's and even their grasp of basic english left something to be desired.
These are the people we have to depend for our future , no matter what social class we come from
Interestingly , notice there is a stoney silence from the Lib/Dem lap dogs - mind you they wouldn't know a policy if it hit them in the face !

Stewart (No 5) puts it perfectly !!!!!!!!!

24

Neil,

17/09/2006 12:20:15

The reduction in business rates & corporation tax should be across the board not merely for those the bureaucracy approve, if we are serious about improving the economy. Thats how Ireland did it & how we can.

Independence is irrelevant to this. the reason given for why the current scheme won't work is because of EU rules - the SNP's vision of independence is "Independence in Europe" which to my mind is the worst of both worlds.

25

Leonard,

Essex England 17/09/2006 12:33:36

Post 13. Ian, I agree, but your plea for independence is somewhat confusing, from whom do you wish to be independent? The Act of Union 1707 is a treaty between Scotland and England and there is no English Parliament to negotiate with, the people of England do not trust the British to negotiate on their behalf. Where does that leave Scotland?

26

scottwebb,

17/09/2006 12:47:29

Comments 13/14 Right on dudes ;)

27

TRJ,

kirkcudbright 17/09/2006 13:48:23

Leonard(28) . You are absolutely correct. When the SNP achieves the majority of seats in Holyrood then Scotland is a self governing nation by the simple fact that the Scottish voters have voted in the Party whose Primary Policy is a totally self-governing Scotland. We don't have to ask or negotiate with the Westminster government for anything other that the return of our rightful wealth and the territory taken from Scotland immediately before the setting up of Holyrood.It was then that the Westminster Government took large chunk of the north sea off the Scottish coast and called it part of England ---approved by Tories and Labour alike. Think on that!!

28

mr chips,

glasgow 17/09/2006 14:22:35

Another bloomer by all mouth no action mconnell.
Is there no end too this wee numpy,s crass stupidity.

29

Ken 1,

Fife 17/09/2006 14:43:56

#11 John,

You know John, you hit it right on the button.

How on earth do people up here expect to organise and run a Country with the muppets around at the moment.

Because the word Independance is used, it doesn't change the personalities and we would still be run by the muppets of ALL PARTIES that we have at present.

It's time people started thinking with their brains rather than their hearts.

30

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 14:57:43

18. Colin McDowell: Are you for real?
"Jack McConnell should become Prime Minister after blair is gone." (Eh, Though oddly I did read somthing about that in todays Sunday Hearld, though I think it was said as a joke) & "All britons, we have to use this talent, the guy is soo great. Viva Jack McConnell." (Eh) Is Jack no too busy wrapping him self in the Sautier (In an atempt To apeal to thouse of us that want independence (It's no much of a suprise it doesn't work partiulary when he wears a pinstriped kilt to a tarten week event)) to concentrat on the UK as a whole and beside who would he go to if he had a problem with the parlement in Westminster(Holyrood?????)

McConnel is one of the most amusing polictions their ever as been though I think the tories might won't to steel his crown with their forest of sigwigly trees.

31

Sanny,

17/09/2006 15:03:56

Leonard @ 28
Ian @ 13 made no reference to an English Parliament, however I mistakenly did in my comment @ 25. I should of course said Westminster which, in theory, serves Scotland, Wales and N.I in addition to England. This said, we who are not in England, do not and never have believed that Westminster looked after our interests. I would go further and say they only look after London and the SE of England. The exception being: - when they are looking for CANNON FODDER. Perhaps when we’ve gone our own way then England will realise that we were not the subsidy junkies that you were led to believe, but will find that the real subsidies go to mainly London with the SE getting a goodly share as well. Tough luck on the rest of England.
WHEN (soon) Scotland is independent it is the southern subsidy junkies that will feel the pain most. Where’s Red Ken going to get the money for his grandiose transport plans for London?
I say again to all Scots: - Vote SNP! This will guarantee our freedom from the English yoke. Then you can a vote the government of your choice. But remember what a joke this Labour lot have been in their eight years of power!!

32

Rod,

Kirkliston - Scotland's Village Jewel 17/09/2006 15:04:37

32 You know John, you hit it right on the button.

Ditto.
The principle of independence does not alarm me but the personalities who might wield the power certainly do.
My own experience of following proceedings at Holyrood and Westminster is that mediocrity far outweighs talent and vision.

33

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 15:05:23

#28. Leonard: EH, & your point is? So Are you for the (Out dated) union that beninds us together or do you what to see the back of it like so many Scots?

34

Sanny,

Ex-Pat Scot 17/09/2006 15:11:49

Eve @ 33
I believe in a previous post you indicated that you may have the misfortune to be dyslexic, this being the case you have my sympathy This said your posts could be much improved if you would use a simple spellchecker. No offence intended.

35

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 15:37:59

37. Alexander: Normal spell checker gives you 3 possiblites: 1. being the wrong word. 2. being ?????? 3. and in very rare occasions the right word.
I have a sufisticated Spell checker that worked really well for the 1st 2 & 1/2 years then it took a fit and let words that weren't words stay in my documents. I'm in the process of traing a new program which should help me in the near future.
Sorry if it's really difficult to read, I thought my spelling was quite good today, it's obovusly not.

36

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 15:50:17

38. Peter: Lewis MacDonald MSP (deputy Health Minister & Aberdeen Central, Labour (C)) Said what? It just doesn't make sence to me, No wonder the Scottish nations Health is so poor, Weobovusly need a proper Scottish parlement (i.e. Independence) to improve the nations health. By the sounds of what your say that he wrote He appears to be saying this.

( http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/facts... )

37

scottwebb,

17/09/2006 15:53:07

comment@25. Alexander. Agreed mate. The FIRST objective is to gain Independence

38

scottwebb,

17/09/2006 15:55:39

Comment@41 Eve. Hi Eve, you may find this very educating http://www.welltv.com/ as i goes into exactly who's interests are actually being served

39

scottwebb,

17/09/2006 15:57:13

i meant to say It not i, dam this phone :)

40

scottwebb,

17/09/2006 16:03:20

Comment@ 39 Eve. This will help you loads as a spellchecker and it integrates into internet explorer http://www.download.com/3000-2378-10208550.html

41

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 16:04:37

44. Scott: I don't,
I can't read that type of font on that type of background. If the coulours where the other way round then I would be able to read it. (Too costly to print out as well) Though I would still strugle with all thats written in Italics. Theres a lot written in Italics.

42

Leonard,

Essex England 17/09/2006 16:06:38

36. Eve, my point is that one of the two parliaments that signed the Act of Union 1707 no longer exists and that the people of England will never let the British negotiate for them. So you can negotiate or make as many declarations as you like, or until you are blue in the face, none of it will be acceptable to the people of England unless an English Parliament is re-convened to look after her own peoples interests. The Westmnster Parliament is NOT an English Parliament.

43

scottwebb,

17/09/2006 16:10:31

Comment @47. Eve. Try this one if you have quick time player installed as it will play automatically, if you have any distortion, pause it so that it buffers first ;) http://herballure.com/Special/WeBecomeSilent/QuickTime.html

44

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 16:15:34

46. Scott: Thanks for the link, I'm not sure about down loading it because it might curopt my Text help (Read & Write) program (I've been more warey of things like this since this vital program completly crashed after I down loaded somthing that was free 2 years ago) and I still need it for uni even though it doesn't work as well as it should on it's own.

45

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 16:22:53

48. Leonard: They sure fooled me, then! I wonder how so many of us (Scots) assosate Westminster as being an English government? Oh may be it's because they put Englands needs 1st. And a colision government of England, Scotland, Wales and Northen Ireland would mean looking at whats best for everone not just the country with majourty. Thats why many Scots see the westminster government as being English. It's very understandable that we would think this and the English are more than welcome to make Westminster purely an English government and let Scotland be free from the union aloung with our pals the Welsh and Northen Irish.

46

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 16:27:40

P.S. Leonard: The Scottish one nolonger exist as well, devolution has created a parlement that just does what ever Westminster wants and even ask them for premision before carrying out their daily duties. They son't have much power at the moment, just an over price buliding to think about what the could be doing in if they acutally had the power to rule there own country.

47

Joanna,

Cambs 17/09/2006 17:02:51

Eve

How exactly do they put the needs of the English first? We were not offered a vote on an English parliament. That is one that only allows MPs who hold an English seat to vote on domestic English issues. That is the oft ignored West Lothian question - which a lot of politicians are trying to pretend does not exist. The Parliament in Westminster is a British one not an English one.

Additionally, anyone who says that any commoner (English or Scottish) in 1707 had any say, whatsoever, in the Act of Union is talking utter twaddle. The common man did not get the vote until 1867 and then was only able to vote if he was considered to be a 'respectable householder'. Women did not get the vote until 1918.

Most ordinary people in England and Scotland living in 1707 could not even read or write - they were controlled by the nobility which was the ruling class. If you want to blame someone for the Act of Union then blame them .......... it is not the fault of ordinary English people from the past and it is most certainly not the fault of any English person living today.

Vote for Scottish independence if that is what you want - when you get the chance but for goodness sake do it because that is how you see your future and not because of some twisted, embittered reason from the past.

48

Sanny,

Ex-Pat Scot. 17/09/2006 17:13:15

MM @ 43
Don’t you have a real name? Or are you so ashamed of your comments that you hide behind a non de plume?
Whatever: - Who cares if they voted for some insignificant bills – in any case I hate being subjected to second hand smoke and drunken louts on the street. The important thing is that they are the only party that has independence as the principal objective in their manifesto and constitution.
As the Tories have set their faces against independence any cooperation seem most unlikely. Where do you get these idiotic bits of information?
Hanging? Might be too good for you!
The Moves you quote. I believe Labour may have already put that in place.
Here’s your hat and coat what’ your hurry?

49

Eve,

Scotland 17/09/2006 17:20:07

53. Joanna: You've given some good reasons why everyone who's entitled to vote should vote.

Though:

"it is not the fault of ordinary English people from the past and it is most certainly not the fault of any English person living today." Noones blaming the ordenery people Just westminster MP's Lords, laddies and Monicay.

Form where I'm and have been it would appear that the English are put 1st maybe it just thouse who are classed as upper class. But still there these people are English.

Also population of Scotland is too Small incamparsion with England for that of our opions and needs are often shoved under the carpet far to often. As in Scotland we have diffrent needs and wants form England.

The past is important (We learn from (our) mistakes) but most of us just want to rule our own country from our country, so we get whats truely the best for us.

50

Sanny,

Ex-Pat Scot. 17/09/2006 17:27:32

Joanna @ 53
Your remarks cannot go unchallenged. You may not be aware that the world’s first public education act was passed in Scotland. It required the eldest son to be educated at the Parish expense for 4 hours a week. Scotland valued education and many were able to read and write long before the Union.
To further your education: - around 75% of the Scottish people signed petitions AGAINST the Union. But were ignored by the Scottish (so called Nobility) who were paid by the English for their votes. I believe the Act was only passed by one vote.
I could go on but as you are in the Esteemed seat of learning in England I’m sure you can do your own research.

51

Joanna,

Cambs 17/09/2006 17:39:36

Alexander -

The Act of Union was not wholly popular with the English. The Tories opposed it and it was pushed through by the Whig parliament. All of those were of the ruling classes. As I said before - whether they could read or write or not - the ordinary common man did not get the vote until the Electoral Reform of 1867 and then, it was only 'decent householders'.

If 75% of Scottish people signed petitions then, they were probably encouraged to do so by some of the ruling class in Scotland who opposed the Union. In any case, the ruling class took no notice of any opposition by commoners, if they got too riotous they would be dealt with, punishment was harsh and immediate in those days. Commoners in 1707 had little or no rights.

52

Joanna,

Cambs 17/09/2006 17:41:09

Btw: Alexander - Cambridgeshire is a county and Cambridge is a town within it. Not every one in Cambridgeshire or indeed Cambridge, itself, is a member of the university of Cambridge.

53

Joanna,

Cambs 17/09/2006 17:47:15

Eve,

I agree with you - as I have already said - if the majority of the Scottish electorate want independence than so be it. However, I am merely pointing out that the English people have issues with this Government as well - many of which are the same as the Scottish ones. The NHS, the Iraq war, education, crime rates, etc, etc. At least now we have a vote and can do something about it at the ballot box, a privilege which was denied to our ancestors.

54

Honest Opinion,

Germany 17/09/2006 18:15:48

Its refreshing to note that a report on Scottish Parliamentary failures always kicks off an enlightened debate on the pros and cons of independence. However, I would like to re-focus a little - the issue is the competence and creditability of those currently in charge. Summary could read:-
Deceitful and Dopey!
We need better qualified, experienced and honest people at the head of SCOTLAND PLC - the largest commercial organisation in the country I suppose. If that means following the independence road so be it.

55

it has always been allan,

17/09/2006 18:24:26

All hot air.

if you go it alone take G Brown with you, nobody else wants him.

let him drag you down like the UK with millions of poiunds spent on non medical consultants to ruin the NHS and many more examples for you to have ruined, and stealth taxes galore.

Scotlands industry is now just tourism, ad devoulution has provided what???

56

Ewan,

Fife 17/09/2006 18:43:35

27. I wish folks in Scotland (and especially the SNP) would stop looking at comparative models, ie. Norway and Ireland. The Irish model isn't a possibility because their tax cuts have been made possible by endless EU funding (they still recieve the largest sum per head) - something Scotland would never be eligible for. As for Norway, I'd prefer not to have an economy ENTIRELY reliant on fishing and oil. The on-shore economy in Norway has been in recession since they discovered oil. How about we come up with our own ideas rather than taking short cuts. We've always been good at that.

57

Sanny,

Ex-Pat Scot. 17/09/2006 18:56:45

Allan @ 61:
Just a thought: Have you considered that G.B. may have been a plant by the National Movement, in order to turn English opinion in their direction. If so, they have succeeded even more than the vexatious Midlothian question.

There can be little doubt that since the last referendum on independence the English have become more supportive. But, as your do not indicate if you live in the South perhaps you should read my previous post at @ 34.

Returning to G.B. Given the opprobrium that is being heaped upon his head in Scotland, it is possible that he may seek political asylum in England. If he stays here, we may just put him down like any other mad dog.

The only benefit from devolution has been to open the eyes of Scots to the true incompetence of Labour. Your economic assessment merely shows your total ignorance of Scotland and its resources.

Did they not teach you punctuation at school? A sentence begins with a capital. Only trying to help!!

58

Sanny,

Ex-Pat Scot. 17/09/2006 19:11:30

Ewan @62
Have you been to Norway lately or looked at their economy? The surplus in their social fund is obscene. Their only problem – as far as I can see – is that they have an old fashioned version of socialism. It is unlikely that Norway will have a financial problem in the foreseeable future.

You need to take a very hard look at the resources in both people and materials in Scotland to see that we have a far better base than most of the small independent countries quoted thus far in this thread. Indeed we have a better base than many of the larger countries in Europe.

If Scotland can grasp this opportunity to gain its independence and forge a new and more democratic form of government, then nothing is beyond us. I’m not looking at a comparative model I believe we can create a new model.

I personally would like to see the introduction of a Flat Rate tax. Then watch the economy boom.

59

The Strategist,

17/09/2006 19:58:16

I go to Norway on business quite regularly.. There is no way it is reliant simply on oil and fishing. In fact it is a highly diverse and high tech/high value adding economy.

But then again they have a joined up Govt/Industry/Financial Services approach which means their industry benefits from far better support than we do.

60

Duncan,

The Minch 17/09/2006 20:09:26

ROBERT, SWINDON NO10.
This is not sarcastic. But I am really interested to know where you get the opinion that we are going to be worse of?
If the present lot are allowed to run the country I would go along with you, as they could not run a bouncy castle!
Even if we were going to be worse of, it would be our worse of, not the UKs, and you would not have us whinging any more, maybe. The restoration of our Parliament after 300 years would lift the moral and self respect of any Scot worth there porridge, and I think that is worth more than any Barnett Formula.
The more I read, political comment, and from forums like these, the more I am drawn to the conclusion that the English are shit scared of us going it alone, as deep down they know we will be strong and succesful. If not why are they on these boards sniping away?
ALEXANDER 64. Why the big put downs and snide remarks about grammar, (this is not school,) Let us be free and independent, let us do it with honour and be decent about it. Even if deluded people sound of without backing it up with facts, or as they do, distorting them. They may also hurl abuse. Rise above there pettines. Be magnanimous in victory, the mark of an honorable warrior. ( I have been drawn into personal abuse, before someone digs me up.)
If the English cannot understand why we want to be done with them for good. Consider this. Had it not been for the courage and fortitude of brave warriors like William Wallace, and King Robert the Bruce, and the brave men and women who fought and suffered over the years. We would never have had a Union that was supposed to be equal. We would have been a conquered nation under the yoke of total English domination and oppression, which we never were and never will be. Oh they tried by God they tried, and we have prevailed. We still wear tartan and some of us still speak gaelic, and that is getting better. We still have square sausage, tattie scones, Iron Bru and uisge beatha. Yes

61

mr chips,

glasgow 17/09/2006 20:21:02

jack boot has got 7 advisors and he is still making a complete erse of himself.Hopefully questions will be asked during first mincers bawling time, about this massive u turn,it will be interesting hear what the wind bags got to say on this matter.

62

Synchronicity,

17/09/2006 20:57:37

Once again Jack opens his big gub to get public attention before engaging brain.

He is as useful as a chocolate teaspoon.

63

Billy,

Germany 18/09/2006 09:25:26

Student politics at it's most damaging , but will you vote
them out of office . All the oil money in the world wont
make you prosperous in the hands of these imbeciles ,
most of it would go to fund "revoloutionary social programs" which will translate as a huge rise in benefits. You will be no better of although you would be able to boast the wealthiest unemployed in the world.

Labour are no longer the "party of the working man "'
face it , they are now your biggest enemy.

64

siusaidh,

Edinburgh 18/09/2006 09:47:14

Quite right Billy ,
sadly there seem to be a lot of those kind living in Scotland,who believe they can change Labour into old Labour again....some hardened unionist who used to live in England are living here now to vote in their favour, but not the scots interests.....

Scotland needs independence sooner rather than later!

65

Ewan,

Fife 18/09/2006 11:36:55

64. I never stated otherwise, and yes I'm in Stavanger regularly. My point was that other sectors of the Norwegian economy have suffered because they are completely reliant on the price of oil. When you state 'economy' you mean 'oil'. I'd never want Scotland to be in that situation. There is such a thing as the curse of oil.

I agree with your last point though. I'd be delighted to see a flat tax introduced in Scotland, especially if that means attracting real talent back into the country without nonsense and degrading 'Best small country in the world' campaigns.

66

Garden State Bear,

new jersey 18/09/2006 14:32:09

I would like to thank Colin McDowell in CA for giving me the biggest laugh of the morning! Now come on Colin, you were only kidding .. right?!!!

67

SC,

Dundee 18/09/2006 17:50:24

What are we talking about again.... or right...cutting taxes.

As a frequent visitor to these threads, it is encouraging to see that people of the economically-liberal persausion (not to be confused with LibDems) are becoming more and more in favour of independence.

When will the Conservatives see sense and ditch the Unionism?

Independence now!
Devolution from Edinburgh!
Fixed term politicians!
Flat tax!
No to a Norwegian style dependency-but-in-an-ever-so-middle-class-way economy!

68

Virgil,

Fort McMurray, Alberta 19/09/2006 02:59:33

Why do we keep reading in this column about independence for Scotland when it is obvious that you would screw it up. The Scots have been subserviant to the English for so long that you could not survive by letting go of their coat-tails.

69

Gordon S.,

Edinburgh 19/09/2006 14:50:12

Fascinating commentary, there is a definate passion in this discussion. The loudest call for independance I've ever heard and it sounds like music to my ears. Alex Salmond must be reading this with zest in the reality that the Scots are ready for this and ready to make Scotland what it was always meant to be, Magic!

70

Eve,

Scotland 19/09/2006 20:10:41

77. Gordon: AYE

71

Gordon S.,

Edinburgh 20/09/2006 14:23:51

78. Eve:

Cheers Eve, an enormous amount of good will come from Scotlands independance, I'd imagine a great deal more than we can fathom, and we all have the ability to make that happen.


 

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