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Deprivation and inequality 'divide nation'

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Published Date:
17 September 2006
ONE OF Scotland's leading historians has described the country as a deeply divided nation where profound deprivation leaves entire areas mired in poverty while the middle classes get richer.
Professor Tom Devine says devolution has so far failed to tackle the inequalities of the country's poorest estates, leaving thousands facing premature death. His damning judgment, in a new edition of the bestselling book The Scottish Nation, states that "the inter-generational culture of worklessness" where children "grow up in households devoid of role models" remains grossly apparent in the 21st century.

Devine, holder of the Sir William Fraser Chair of Scottish History at Edinburgh University, concludes that the nation's politicians must focus on transforming the situation. In the book's final chapter, 'After Devolution', the author and historian - himself brought up in a Motherwell tenement - points out that in the heart of "Third Scotland", male life expectancy is now less than 60, lower than during the Second World War and also in modern-day Lebanon, Bosnia or the Gaza Strip.

In the new edition of the book, Devine writes: "This depressing picture helps to explain the incomprehension of many middle-class Scots when they read that their country is a drugs blackspot and has one of the murder capitals of the world.

"Their reactions reflect the deep social divisions within urban Scotland, where the new affluence of the many has not substantially eased the relative living standards of the poorer minority."

Last night, the historian's comments were echoed by a leading expert in urban regeneration, who said rising inequality and entrenched poverty remain Scotland's biggest challenges in the 21st century.

Recent NHS Scotland figures show that a child born in Calton, central Glasgow, can only expect to live to 54 and is three times as likely to suffer heart disease, four times more likely to be hospitalised and 10 times as likely to grow up in a workless household than a child in the city's prosperous western suburbs.

Devine told Scotland on Sunday: "I have tried to illustrate that some areas of Scotland are now a bit like the housing in US city ghettos. If you look at the facade it doesn't look too bad, but it is what lies behind them that does the damage.

"The people are totally excluded from the knowledge economy and can see no way out of it."

However, Devine believes devolution has at least begun to address the deprivation that plagues the poorest areas of Scottish cities. But he doubts whether it can ever be reversed, and also questions the role of the benefits system.

He said: "Devolution has helped because it has produced a considerable political will to do something. But as far as I am aware, no society on the planet has been able to manage this problem that some members of our society don't get the same advantages as the majority.

"The welfare state can provide a safety net, but when people get embedded in that safety net there is always the possibility for the dependency culture to exist."

Professor Ivan Turok, an expert in urban studies at Glasgow University, said: "My immediate reaction is that there is a lot of sense in what Tom is saying.

"He is talking about rising inequality and entrenched poverty. At the same time the rest of society is becoming more prosperous. The poor are being left further behind. They also see the rest of society getting richer, so they become increasingly resentful and deeply alienated."

Bill Aitken, a Conservative MSP for Glasgow, who was raised in a Maryhill tenement in the city, said: "Seventy years of undiluted municipal socialism has resulted in the clear divide Professor Devine suggests. Neither the Executive nor the council shows any real desire to get to grips with the problem.

"Throwing money at it is not the answer. There needs to be a look at the benefits system to see how we can get people into meaningful employment which, in itself, will raise aspirations and, above all, do something to inspire a generation of youngsters."

Devine has also used the second edition of The Scottish Nation, which is being released to mark the tercentenary of the 1707 union with England, to comment on some of the more notable events in the first nine years of devolution.

He describes Donald Dewar's time as First Minister, less than 18 months, as "tragically short", with his administration beset by the escalating costs of the Parliament building and the furore over Section 28, lifting the ban on promoting homosexuality in schools.

His successor, Henry McLeish, is given credit by Devine for introducing free personal care for the elderly, but receives criticism for his poor leadership of the country.

Devine writes: "The McLeish administration was mainly distinguished by its mediocrity."

The current First Minister, Jack McConnell, is credited with introducing proportional representation in local government elections, "as it could end the hegemony of the Labour party at local level".

Facing an early death, just like mum


"MY MUM died at 61. It was emphysema. I'll probably not even live that long," said Elizabeth Hughes, clutching a cigarette in the pouring rain as she walked home in Glasgow's Calton district.

A premature death is virtually guaranteed for the 39-year-old mother of two, whose flat on Mill Road has been scheduled for demolition for more than a decade.

When Hughes' landlord, Thenew Housing Association, asked her whether she wanted either double glazing or central heating, she asked for the former.

"So they gave me central heating," Hughes said. "The heat goes straight out the windows."

The plaster on the walls of her two-bedroom flat is so flimsy that the radiators are falling off. Damp pervades the rooms.

Hughes is on steroids to combat the asthma which has followed.

She worries that it is only a matter of time before her children, Sinead, eight, and Conor, 12, fall victim to the same condition.

Despite her apparently desperate situation, Hughes retains a sense of resilience - and humour. But there is also anger.

She said: "When Maggie Thatcher was in government, a lot of the bigger council houses were sold off. The ones that weren't are still mostly taken by pensioners, who have three spare bedrooms.

"It's mad. We're overcrowded, with some families having four weans in a two-bedroom flat. Where's the sense in that?"

Statistics show there is nowhere worse to live in Scotland, but only a few hundred yards away luxury flats at Graham Square betray a tale of two cities.

And opposite the Bellgrove Hotel, described by locals as a hostel for "junkies and alkies", stands the east end Healthy Living Centre, where professional sportsmen and women are known to train.

In Calton, two in five adults claim incapacity benefit and the number of under-25s claiming it is up from 52,000 to 83,000 in seven years.

The local health centre uses two security guards. One, Michael Niewiedzial, from Poznan in Poland, has been in Scotland for a year. He said: "I wasn't surprised when I came here, because Glasgow is a big city. But it should be more equal.

"The government has to involve people in some kind of work. Just giving them money and saying 'see you next week' doesn't work."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 September 2006 11:34 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish child poverty
 
1

charles mcculloch,

glasgow 17/09/2006 00:55:30

reference poverty in glasgow,the calton district has not changed much since i was born there in 1921.it is still pretty dreary.llabour has been in power in glasgow since 1933,and inscotland as a whole since 1945,but just try and get some pro-labour character to accept the blame for all this huge mess.it is always somebody else s fault.theworse things that ever hapened to scotland were the auld alliance with the france which got us into everlasting wars with englnd,the 1707 act of union,the labour party.

2

,

17/09/2006 04:37:23
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 72387, Article id was mapped to record!
3

,

17/09/2006 06:07:20
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 72410, Article id was mapped to record!
4

Guga,

Rockall 17/09/2006 06:11:17

If Patriotic Jack doesn't like the Scots, why does he bother reading a Scottish newspaper, and providing extremely offensive and ill thought out comments? He is obviously the sad one if that is the way he gets his kicks.

Charles McCulloch was actually blaming the Labour Party, or, more correctly, the Labour Mafia, who have held power in much of the Central Belt/West of Scotland, more or less continuously, since 1945.

They hold on to power to line their own pockets. They are riddled with corruption in their little rotten burghs, and their only interest in ordinary people is to con them into giving them their votes. Nothing will change till people finally wake up to them and give the Labour Party, and their leader, Joke McConnell, the boot.

5

Anne,

17/09/2006 06:26:00

It shows how effective Health Education in Scotland has been that the daughter of an emphysema sufferer, and herself an asthmatic, is still puffing away on cancer sticks and pleading poverty.
At around £5 a packet, it would be better for her, and her children, if she just put a mach to seven fivers every week.

6

,

17/09/2006 06:29:55
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 72423, Article id was mapped to record!
7

,

17/09/2006 06:36:26
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8

Bejjy,

United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland 17/09/2006 06:44:26

Make your mind up Guga, England? Germany?

9

Gnasher,

17/09/2006 06:54:22

How should devolution be expected to deal with ned culture?

10

Guga,

Rockall 17/09/2006 07:29:06

Don't you know your own origins Patriotic Jack? The Angles and the Saxons came from Germany. You may also recall that one of your more well known compatriots, Daniel Defoe, stated that "a true born Englishman is but a fiction".

11

jw,

England 17/09/2006 07:45:38

Guga Post 10....... Yea and Picts, Celts, Normans. Hugenots, Jews, Hindus, Moslems, Afro-caribbeans etc. etc..... what a great melting pot we are here. unlike you insulars bods, in Rockall,

12

ChrisW,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 07:54:44

As I read Charles McCulloch (1 above), his comments relate not to "the English" but to the "wisnae me" attitudes of the successive socialist administrations in Glasgow since 1933 ... always find someone else to blame for the fact that their hoped-for socialist utopia hasn't happened. Perhaps Patriot Jack should learn to read and think just a little before jumping in wearing his St George underpants. Just think of a world run by his like and the Scottish isolationist equivalent.

13

Bejjy,

United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland 17/09/2006 07:57:41

You're funny Guga, arrogant but funny. From what limited info I have given about myself how do you deduce that I am English. You could'nt be further from the truth sunshine. The original point that I was making is valid; all of Scotland's woes you and your ilk blame on the English. When are you going to grow up and start taking responsibility for your own inadequacies.

14

John,

Stirling 17/09/2006 08:01:09

Whittering and whining - don't these people have anything better to do, like addressing the problem the article raises? the one relevant point made is true enough - Labour's only solution to inequality is to take from the 'rich' i.e. anyone who works for a living. Giving to the poor is done the wrong way but few of them are likely to admit this. This appears even in the academics' comments, such as "The people are totally excluded from the knowledge economy and can see no way out of it."

Excluded? The opportunities are there for those willing and able to take them. Personal initiative would help. So would an understanding of the problem by those who are in a position to do something about the living conditions described by the emphysema candidate in Calton - Glasgow's councillors. Other councils in Scotland, even Labour ones, make an effort to establish decent standards in housing, which give people the chance to look beyond being resentful at others' improving wealth and take advantage of the opportunities available. Bill Aitken has it right. People with aspirations just need some guidance on which direction to go in.

15

Dougie - Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 08:22:41

For the past few generations at least, the poorest sections of society have been having more children than the richest and best-educated sections of society. It's no surprise that the culture which encourages poverty (ie. ignorance, laziness and dependency) has been spreading.

16

radge dug,

17/09/2006 08:27:04

England, Germany... basically the same culture and people - they do share linguistic roots, royal family and St. George.

I won't necessarily blame 'the English' but much of the poverty you get especially in the west of scotland is the result third-world type policies and tragedies of the past such as the Potato Famines of Scotland and Ireland and the Clearances. We have the same history of suffering the consequences of imperialism and colonialism as many other indigenous populations in the 'new world'. Compare the Gaelic Scots/Irish and their great-grandchildren we see today with what we see in Native American, Aborigine and Maori city slums.

The Union was definately not a good thing. Famine and clearance in the Highlands, slums in Lowland cities. Sure, some Scots did profit from it all but the same can be said of any colonised country.

Devine, not usually a bringer of good news, has hit the nail on the head here. Aikten is right too (surprisingly for a Tory mac na galla) when he says that throwing money at the problem won't solve it. Reconnecting with our ancient culture might - read Professor Alastair MacIntosh's 'Soil and Soul' for an insight into this.

17

radge dug,

17/09/2006 08:32:06

#6 - if you hate the Scots, how can you be a Unionist?

Differing opinions are the nature of the beast here, but you're just a wind-up merchant. Sad wee trusdar sitting at his computer all day writing cac. Not got a life?

18

Gordon,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 08:33:52

13 - we'll grow up once we get the responsibility we deserve - independence!

The current system locks families into the welfare benefits, as taking up employment often leaves a month's gap in income, and if you have no money to start with, how can you feed your family for a month on thin air?... and still find the cash to pay full rent as the rebate is withdrawn as soon as employment begins, taking - in Edinburgh - 6 weeks to be reassessed. There is no wonder that Scottish FAMILIES will not take on low paid jobs, but those SINGLES from other countries will.

19

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 08:34:36

Trying to break the cycle that keeps people in poverty is the main problem. There are some families whose history is based in signing on and receiving benefits. It's not just a simple as saying "go and get an education and you'll be fine" - the chances are they never went to school, their parents never went to school and possibly the grandparents never went to school either.

People need hope and many of the people at the poorer end of our society have absolutely no hope of ever getting a job (whether it's because they are better off living on benefits or not). Instead of simply throwing money at them it may be a plan to encourage them to employment using a carrot AND a stick.

20

john montgomery,

anstruther , scotland 17/09/2006 08:47:33

patriotic Jack re German comment do you not know the English are an anglo saxon race hence the German context. it's idiots like you cause rifts between countries. Scotland is trying to solve its problems and England should be doing the same

anyway trying to solve the deprivation problem is another thing. People have choices. I think anti social neighbours make derprivation worse. as many then give up trying to better their lives.

21

Gordon,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 08:51:19

Workers are entitled to a tax-free allowance.

Non-workers get benefits.

If the tax-free allowance was paid through bank accounts to ALL of society, instead of benefits, then all who work, even part time, would be better off, and could easily see that they were better off instead of the current system where a degree in mathematics would be required.

We were all born equal - we should be treated as equals.

Nothing to be gained by marginalising the poor, but much cash to be lost.

22

Archie,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 08:52:42

18 & 19 are absolutely correct. Breaking the poverty cycle is the long term solution - but there's no easy way of doing this . We need a thorough review of the tax and benefits systems - which are overly complex and bureaucratic. Tax credits benefit those on the lower end of the income range, but for those not in work it is virtually impossible to better their situation. Government policy needs to address this more proactively.

23

Gordon,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 08:58:38

Archie - would independece give a clean enough slate?

24

Resolutions,

17/09/2006 09:14:41

Patriotic Jack
Scottish Independence would shut you up and perhaps, just perhaps you would look a bit more like a citizen of the world instead of a complete idiot!
Time you learnt that this is a big world and Scotland is more than capable of standing on its own feet.
Re deprivation it suits labour not to give these areas self esteem - they are only there as ballot box fodder to keep the mafia in power

25

Ellie Jane,

Sheffield 17/09/2006 09:19:46

Please stop this anti Emglish/Scottish stuff. It gets no-one anywhere at all. We all inhabit this planet together for better or worse. For the record I'm English, but have Scottish, Irish and even French blood and goodness knows what else. Also for the record I love Scotland and the Scots.
This benefits trap is applicable all across the UK, not just in Scotland. Minimum wage jobs make it eaiser to stay home on benefits. However we're being given a lesson in independence, self respect and the work ethic by the Polish immigrants who have come here to work. There has been an experiment in the US (hardly generous with benefits) which has managed to get huge numbers of unemployed back to work by removing benefits. They may start off on low pay but work their way up the ladder.
Scotland needs good jobs, not a soviet style system of benefits and state created jobs. I believe they could do this with tourism, finanicial services and when it comes to engineering the Scots have been the most inventive in the world. I'm not a huge supporter of Labour policies but I do think Margaret Thatcher's decision to sell of council houses was a huge mistake. They were sold very cheap and I think it has been partly responsible for stoking the housing market across the UK and those in need can't get good social housing.

26

Ellie Jane,

Sheffield 17/09/2006 09:20:51

PS The Scotsman is a great paper - which is why I read it from afar.

27

McTaggert-Skye,

17/09/2006 09:35:59

Patriotic Jack´s 2. response at first might seem a knee-jerk reaction to us but think about it. It is amazing haw much of our woes and troubles we put on the English. We have a national problem:whingeing. If a person supports utterances from Brown or Cameron for example then a spate of contributions containing insults like traitor, treason, betrayal and worse.

Let us face it Scots ARE quarrelsome. Blame the weather on the English: it will surely come - global warming must be a result of English activities.

Pity the Englishman who takes part in a Scotsman debate.

28

McTaggert-Skye,

Grenoble 17/09/2006 09:41:04

As a German I too believe the British are like us. It does worry me that this Nationalistic Part of Scotland could follow a bad path. We too had such a party as we all know. Look where it moved us.

Please do take care about ratialiastic argumentation. In Scotland I was disturbed by anti-English comments until it was found out I was German in France.

29

Ellie Jane,

Sheffield 17/09/2006 09:54:24

Last comment for today I promise. The anti English feeling has been, I think, boosted by Mel Gibson and his "take" on Scottish history via Braveheart, Stirring a tale though it is, historians have proven most of it was wildly inaccurate but it engendered a dangerous resurgence in the romantic, backward looking Scotland based on half truths, old legends, tales which "grew with the telling", clan loyalties and anti-Englishness (which for the record was the Norman French, not the Anglo Saxon Englishmen and women). Just Google Braveheart and you'll find websites devoted to the inaccuracies. Enjoy the film but don't take it too seriously. Scotland has a lot of mountains to climb and Mel Gibson's chipped shoulder has no part in this.

30

Duncan,

Tobermory 17/09/2006 09:57:52

Hermann/Patriotic Jack Of. You haunt these boards and dribble your pathetic madness through your keyboards because you cannot speak with a Tampax in your mouth. What a sad sad personality you are. You are more to be pitied than laughed at. If you are getting any satisfaction from the total garbage you have left on these boards then you are in deep trouble mentally.

31

Gordon,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 10:04:30

The usual references to the English refer to the seat of the British parliament in London - even though in was moved there by a Scottish King.

he did this to keep control of the lords at a time when communication between capitals took days. Historically, this proved a bad move, as the lords then stayed in London and ever since the views of the population of London have influenced the government more than the distant Scots.

This was seen as unfair then, as the people of Scotland had no choice, and is still unfair now as the population of the southeast of England can easily outvote the entire population of Scotland.

This uneven balance is the cause of the "anti-English" sentiment, not a deeprooted hatred of all English. If that was the case, there would be much more angst with the English who choose to live here. No-one is saying that the border should be closed and all English removed, just that all those who live north of the border should be able to have policies enacted which suit the needs of the people of Scotland, regardless of their origins.

32

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 10:05:11

#25 Anne
I'm with you on the Scottish/English cr*p. The poverty problems cover the whole of the country - there are as many people caught up in the "cycle" in Manchester, Newcastle and London as Glasgow or Edinburgh.

The housing situation was undoubtedly caused by selling off the council houses - I know of some pensioners in big houses who would have moved to one of those one bedroom bungalows but they have all been sold too. People are unwillingly stuck, rattling about a house that is far too big for them.

Have you read some of the job adverts for the local councils lately? Many of them are just invented posts that pay big money for little obvious return. People need real jobs - not made up paper-pushing exercises just designed to get people off the unemployed register.

The US benefits sysytem is notoriously "ungenerous" - you don't "sign on" to get dole money there! If you pack in a job over there, you'd better have another one to go to! Maybe someone brighter than I am could produce a system that gives a happy medium. Goodness knows, the one we currently have isn't great!

33

Bejjy,

United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland 17/09/2006 10:07:16

Bulldog. You have eloquently expressed the point that I have been making for sometime on this forum. I am not English nor is my country of birth either in the United Kingdom or the European Union but I can bet when I contribute to debates on this forum and argue against an issue e.g. independence, I guarantee that anti-english abuse will be thrown at me. Many of the contributers make intelligent clearly thought out arguements either in favour or against the issue being discussed but others, and I don't think there is an adjective to describe them, just resort to abuse. I am not anti-Scottish per se just anti-foul mouthed idiots.

34

Bejjy,

United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland 17/09/2006 10:10:00

Angus Og is a good example of what I have previously desribed. Thank you for proving my point Angus.

35

david,

argyll 17/09/2006 10:18:32

As a born-and-bred Glasgow eastender with a Calton grannie (a genuine Calton weaver) I was once dispatched by a nervous editor to pacify an irate group of Calton wifies furious at a derogatory article published about their community. It didn't work - and I was given a hard time, deservedly.

Even now I feel admiration for them, and their analysis that so-called regeneration was ripping the heart out of Calton and while it was fine having a Calton grannie and coming from the up the road, but what had I ever done for Calton?

The Calton women are still there. Put them in charge and maybe something will get done.

36

Allen,

Glasgow 17/09/2006 10:56:03

Talk about democracy and free speech, has anybody noticed the Scotsman newspaper is not allowing comments to be posted in this email regarding the Pope and the Muslim uprising-Suppression or what? Democracy-who's democracy? The Scotsman-bah ya rag

SCOTMAN newspaper is run by dictators, anybody want to bet this decision was made by some liberated feminist.

37

McTaggert-Skye,

Fife 17/09/2006 11:03:12

Angus 30: You make me ashamed to be Scottish! You seduce yourself with petty witty phrases and I imagine sit back self satisfied. I also imagine that you have a picture of yourself being an orator? Am I correct?

Pleae do be polite - remember the rules of the game.

38

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 11:04:29

Allan, I saw some of the stuff being posted about that last night and it was degenerating into a pit of stupidity (at best). I'm surprised it was allowed to carry on for so long.

39

jw... father of liberated feminist,

England 17/09/2006 11:06:31

Allan, Glasgow. Go to Opinion Board and read comment by Brian Wilson.

40

McTaggert-Skye,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 11:07:38

Thank you Allan 36. Now you have opened the dorr for me.

I have read many comments from readers of the BBC news site and also the Daily Mail. Nearly all condemn muslims for getting angry, even burning down churches in Palestine.

Some are indignant that the Presdent of Iran is demanding an apology from the Pope because they view him as being a hypocrite (with his speeches about jews and christians).

Are in the beginning of a conflict between the West and Islam but are not aware of it. Will this be the conclusion of future historians? I only ask.

41

McTaggert-Skye,

Grenoble 17/09/2006 11:12:51

Mr. Angus 30. Why are you angry at me? I do not know what I have written wrong. I just warned about consequences of one party state and racism. Please learn from our expeience. Now we have many parties and we do not like racism. Are you racist perhaps?

42

,

17/09/2006 11:14:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

McTaggert-Skye,

Fife 17/09/2006 11:15:53

Jg 38: Allan, I saw some of the stuff being posted about that last night and it was degenerating into a pit of stupidity (at best). I'm surprised it was allowed to carry on for so long.

________
This was about a Pope debate. I think that all debates if carried out long enough degenerate in the way you noticed in that particular case. Usually ends up with numerous contributions at differering levels of sophistication.

44

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 11:18:19

There were more than 400 postings before the plug was pulled last night. By then most of the contributions were well down the "sophistication" scale!

45

McTaggert-Skye,

Norway 17/09/2006 11:19:22

Jack 33 and Bulldig: I took part in a debate yesterday and was accused og being English and living in Tower Hamlets. (The last I did not understand). Even worse for Hermann the German - he getrs slautered. At least my mum is Scottish.

46

Masterveny,

England 17/09/2006 11:21:54

That the average lifespan is a mere 54 is shocking and should make everyone pause and hang their heads in shame.
Of course the benefits system is ridiculous but it is too entenched in the UK to reform. Brilliant early education is probably the cheapest solution but those who took the teaching career path for vocational reasons no longer exist. So because the pay is the same most will gravitate to the easier (middle class) districts. That is exactly why there are no GPs in the inner cities. So super teachers must be paid supra salaries to tempt them in to difficult areas. By the way the executives of Housing Associations (or councils) who rent out substandard accommodation should be prosecuted and fined on a personal basis.

47

Steve McGregor,

Inglewood, L.A 17/09/2006 11:38:28

As an American of Scottish origin, I m very aware of whats going on back in the UK. I think Blair should go soon, and if we want to have a competent and prosperous britain, Jack McConnell should become Prime Minister after blair is gone. I know many people will dispute this, but if you check on scottish labour record and achievement in Scotland, Im sure that Mr. McConnell could make the UK as succesful as Scotland. All britons, we have to use this talent, the guy is soo great.
Viva Jack McConnell.

48

Duncan,

Tobermory 17/09/2006 11:48:29

FIONA 37.
I was being polite! The muck that these individuals spout is so designed to disrupt the topic under discussion and divert it, so they can get there racist bigot snide remarks in. My opinion is that it is one individual who really despises Scotland and the Scots, so be it, I can take that. It will not stop me from hitting back when I feel like it.
Poverty is a great leveller, and it is to the eternal shame of the so called 'Labour' party that this situation is condoned by them in an area they have controlled for the past seven decades.
It is suggested by some that Labour needs areas like the Calton and such to justify there own excesses. An area with a heavy dependency culture spawns all the machinery that keeps them all in a job. The public sector will soon be the largest number of employed in Scotland.
This is a Scottish news paper, I am a Scot living in Scotland. If I choose to voice opinions regarding the imperialism that is at the root of our problems, I will. If that makes me a whinging Scot then so be it, that is what I will be, if Unionist and English people are fed up with it then good. Let them pack there Union Jacks and sod of, they are not required.
There will be a long hard struggle ahead of us yet if we take our independence, the English state will see to that. They know what the implications of us being independent are to them. Fiscal Prudence!
I would rather live in a free and democratic Scotland than one ruled by dictat from London. Even if that means we have to go through more hardship to get there. the final result will have been worth it.
Whether I see my self as an orator or not is meaningless, I choose to express firmly held views as and when I see fit. If that means insulting people, as I go, so be it, I will not be the first to do so. Read post number 2 again. Why did you not mention that cheap snide remark, or would self criticism be to painful. A remark I have to say, that the author of would

49

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 11:48:53

#47 Colin, I'm not sure I can go with your opinion on great politicians - check out who "you guys" voted in twice!!!!

#46 Steve, it is shocking that the life expectancy is so low. There may not be any choice but to reform the benefits system. It certainly won't be popular, but what is the alternative? We are effectively paying people to remain unemployed (there is no incentive to find a job if you can be better off drawing off the social).

50

,

17/09/2006 11:52:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 72683, Article id was mapped to record!
51

Boab Street Resident,

Inverclyde 17/09/2006 11:57:53

If you want to see deprivation in Scotland in the Twenty First Century, have a look at this short video of the area I live in, Inverclyde. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqzVc-jd3Nc

Some of you will be shocked these areas still exist in Scotland, in this day and age.

52

The Leith Cowboy BAM BAM,

17/09/2006 12:13:32

Patriotic Jack is obviously an Asshole and should be ignored since he can't even read what Charles wrote at 1.

It comes down to the Individual. Nobody is going to take anyone by the hand and lead them to the land of riches. There are Libraries etc so no-one is 'excluded from the knowledge society' or should be.

Meaningful work - call me a neo-conservative but able bodied people shoould not be given money for doing nothing. Get them out Cleaning the streets, communityy policing - something - in return for Benefit. They would have a greater sense of well-being and it could lead to something better.

If people are alllowed to stew in their own juices it's no suprise they will turn to drugs/alcohol.

53

The Leith Cowboy BAM BAM,

17/09/2006 12:32:47

Have to agree with Anne at number 5.

She gets new central heating - free - which would cost me 4k if i decided on a new system. She complains.

She has two kids called - get this - Sinead and Connor !!

She is stretched on her own grave i reckon.

Okay I'm sterotyping but why SHOULD we care about her?

54

McTaggert-Skye,

Fife 17/09/2006 12:37:24

Angus 48. I agree with you that Jack´s first contribution is unacceptable (see Ron 50). I had not noticed that one. Subsequent ones have been better thought out.

We all should keep it polite, that is all. Marie Antoinette did not help matters.

Hermann is really naive but what a side-splitter! We need some light relief - some of us need to loosen up.

Back to the debate: we should give devolution a chance. To a large degree we do have control over our own lives.

The whole of the UK should be divided up into Scotland-sized units in a Federal system. Maybe unit of 2.5 million are better? Scotland would be two “regions“ together with 20 other. Alternatively, work down from the North so that a part of southern Scotland would join up with Northumbria etc and so on.

55

Lumber Jack,

Fife 17/09/2006 12:40:30

As someone who works in a similar area as Calton I believe some people are still in poverty for a few reasons one of which is that they don't value education. Some don't encourage their kids to go to school or to do well while at school. Kids grow up wanting to be like their dad, if he's still around, and don't see why they should get a job.
Good health is not appreciated and don’t even mention a healthy diet. Most live on “ding cuisine”, it comes out of a can or a packet and goes straight into the micro.
They show disrespect to almost every authority figure they run up against be that teachers, police etc.
So how do we change this situation?
That’s a very difficult question to answer but the change has to be encouraged from home. There is no point in try to teach them anything if they don’t understand why they need to change.
Secondly, without wanting to start a whole new debate, one has only to tune into BBC TV and radio to understand why the other members of GB and N.I. get so upset at the English. Most if not all programmes are biased towards England. The Six o’clock news talks about new laws coming into being “across the country” but after listening to the story its England and Wales they are referring to as the “whole country”.
I could go on and on about the biased English media but that would detract us from the main topic.

56

Lumber Jack,

Fife 17/09/2006 12:44:15

Sorry can’t let this go.
T. No53
What are you inferring?
“She has two kids called - get this - Sinead and Connor !!”

57

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 12:49:49

I agree, in the main, with Michael. Another problem is that people do not take responsibility for what they do. If you get a dog it is up to YOU to clean up the crap it leaves - if you can't bring yourself to do that DON'T GET ONE!!

If you have a child that is YOUR responsibility too. It is up to YOU to ensure that this child is educated (obviously that means ensuring they go to school). It is up to YOU to ensure that he/she is fed properly. Instead of just paying out from the public purse all of the time, what about chasing up absent fathers who do not pay? It is their responsibility too.

The way things have been run for many decades has resulted in the "I want it - it's my right" society. NO IT ISN'T.

58

Jock McStrapp,

17/09/2006 12:53:04

It sounds as though Calton's problems are no more soluble than those of, say, Moss Side in Manchester and more than a few places in the Bradford area, and for similar reasons. As ever before, everywhere on this planet - it's up to the individual to work his or her way out of such places, and to go somewhere where the dice aren't so heavily loaded against him (or her).

As far as life expectancy is concerned, though, I can't believe that the immediate environment of Calton is necessarily to blame - unless the place has been built on a toxic waste dump, in which case the Environment Agency might need to be called in.
If it's to do instead with ignorance, bad diet, smoking, and the ingestion of alcohol and drugs for entertainment purposes, then that, too is 'personal choice' and has nothing to do with Calton as a place.
The excuse that 'there's nothing else to do here' won't wash - we've all used it at some point, and we've all known that we lied.

Some people might say that the ones who choose to try to escape are 'quitters' in some way. My 'take' is that the ones who stay and put up with a bad situation and make no personal efforts to change it are the true quitters. In that case, they get what they deserve - and they will continue to do so, when the next shower of talking-head deadbeats has wangled its way into public office on the basis of yet more unkeepable election promises.

What's needed is for elected politicians to make an effort to be what they're supposed to be - i.e. public servants, instead of public masters - and to direct their efforts at encouraging initiative and enterprise. In short, they need to become respectable.

As for some of the posts above - I'd hate to have to live in the same town as you people (you know who you are).

As for the 'debate' about the Pope yesterday: I, too, was surprised that it stayed on view for as long as it did ... it had degenerated into nothing more than a catalogue of personal ab

59

Jock McStrapp,

17/09/2006 12:55:58

#52 - totally.

60

Prop,

Seal Beach 17/09/2006 13:19:38

Could someone please tell me how a country where a man is brought before the courts for crossing himself at a football match can find the common purpose to solve it's pressing social problems?
If the Taliban and the sharia law are alive and well in Scotlandistan,you can forget about it.

61

Richard C,

Aberdeen 17/09/2006 13:36:00

I bet these areas are strongholds of the Labour Party in Scotland. That's what happens when you're down and out, you vote Labour. Labour in Scotland wouldn't mind if we were all in this position. They don't care about the SCottish people. All they care about is getting votes so they can enjoy life as champagne socialists in London, which they believe is the centre of the universe

62

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 13:46:54

#60 Mick
If you were as up on current goings on in Scotland as you think you are, you would know that the bloke who crossed himself actually got into trouble for his provocative behaviour prior to his crossing himself. They are having a "push" to try to put a stop to the sectarianism manifested at Rangers/Celtic football matches almost since time immemorial and he was taken to task for THAT.

63

Guga,

Rockall 17/09/2006 14:32:09

Re the comments by Angus Og (#48); well said balach, I agree with you totally.

64

El Gringo,

Brunei 17/09/2006 14:32:24

Seeing the above, and other 'chats' on this site, make me, a 'Bankie' ,over the moon I left Scotland FOR GOOD in 1981. Scotland now seems to be a swamp of ignorance, stupidity, sectarianism, blaming EVERYONE except yourselves, corruption, incompetence............I have two kids..they can tell a Druze from a Druid but not a Catholic from a Protestant...what they'd have been had they stayed in Scotland...small minded, bigoted, 'Ye cannae dae that'......GET THE HELL OUT THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE STILL ABLE !!!!!!!!

65

Rabbie Burns,

Edinburgh 17/09/2006 14:41:16

This board is like chinese whispers. The subject of the article was poverty in Scotland and it's causes and possible solutions. As usual everyone has their own drum to beat but it's not to the song we're meant to be playing. No wonder Scotland and much of the UK is in such a mess if this is an example of how people don't get on. And patriotic Jack you really are a superior Idiot.

66

Prop,

Seal Beach 17/09/2006 14:46:34

JG,#60
My point exactly. Anywhere else THAT would be dealt with by the sport's judiciary tribunal,and not made a police matter to be dealt with by the courts for 'provocative behaviour' to cover up the real reason that everyone except you seems to know.

67

Rod,

Kirkliston - Scotland's Village Jewel 17/09/2006 14:53:33

#25 Please stop this anti Emglish/Scottish stuff. It gets no-one anywhere at all. We all inhabit this planet together for better or worse. For the record I'm English, but have Scottish, Irish and even French blood and goodness knows what else.


Well put, Anne. Like you I am a mix who chooses to live in Scotland. Those who are so vitriolic in verbally abusing their neighbours show, in my view, an ambition that rises no higher than the gutter.
And the gutter is where they should be left to wallow as they have nothing of merit or substance to offer.

68

SC,

Dundee 17/09/2006 14:55:40

The pictures of inverclyde broke my heart.

The only way to tackle this problem is to get people out of the benefits culture. Who else gets a central heating system for free?

It will hurt these people in the short term , but very quickly it will be in their best interest. Otherwise they are going to be stuck in this hell-hole for the next 30-40 years - before they then die, prematurely.

Labour, you really are disgusting.

69

SC,

Dundee 17/09/2006 14:57:17

Oh, btw. Nats don't blame the English, they blame Labour. They blame the Union for delivering a Labour hegemony in Scotland for the past 50 years.

70

Ronnie W,

17/09/2006 15:00:19

O.K. Rabbie (65), poverty in Scotland it is. Nice video Robert, Inverclyde (51). Sad to say the least. But one point. Most of the mess on display looks to me like something which is self inflicted. Even more sad. A young German lady on her frst visit to Scotland once said to my half way down a walk along the towpath of the River Leven to Dumbarton, " Why is it that people who live in such a beautiful country make such a mess of it?" She couldn't understand the shopping trolleys, etc., in the river, and neither could I. I had no sensible answer for her. I don't think that there is one. I just felt a little uncomfortable and ashamed.

71

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 15:32:55

#66 Paul, I take it "Seal Beach" is the one in California? Have you got a conspiracy theory about this too? (I believe the matter you allude to was dealt with by means of a warning at the end of the day - it didn't go anywhere near a court) Have you any idea what can and has gone on between these rival supporters in the past? The two football teams concerned are trying to do their bit to stop it all - perhaps this man's behaviour was to be a salutory lesson to all.

Anyway, the subject under discussion was meant be poverty. Do you have anything constructive to add? Thought not!

72

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 15:43:30

#71 Sorry, I meant to say "this man's punishment"

73

D. Graham,

Glasgow 17/09/2006 15:49:31

Whether or not the deprivation is caused by bad housing, bad lifestyles, or both, shouldnt the Scottish Executive actually do something about it? There have been complaints of damp etc in some council houses for three decades yet many of them are still occupied. Glasgow does not receive enough money to tackle the issue of poverty which is a blight on the city and is to a certain extent hindering the success it has recently enjoyed (without the help of the government ). But then if the Scottish Executive are ready to dish out hundreds of millions of pounds for projects in the East coast that it neither needs nor could sustain, then its hardly a surprise Glasgow is badly under-funded when it comes to tackling poverty. Our government have to start addressing these problems in our largest city which would have no doubt been tackled and dealt with a long time ago had they existed in our beloved capital

74

J. Burns,

Dallas, Texas 17/09/2006 16:00:06

I totally agree with Anne. Living in the U.S., you are "on your own" when it comes to government benefits. Most of us agree with the system because it encourages people to get off their butt and get to work. There are more than enough jobs to go around. Look at the displaced degenerates from New Orleans. They have lived on minimal govt. benefits for several generations and now that their homes were wiped out, they're expected to get to work. Can someone explain to me why Europe has become so far left? And why would you open your borders to allow poor foreigners who will take any job for the least amount possible? Don't hate the messenger- just throwing a few thoughts out there.

75

Prop,

Seal Beach 17/09/2006 16:05:33

JGFife #71
As you continue to prove my point , it remains only to state the obvious,that unless and untill you control 'sectarianism ...since time immemorial' where will you find the unity and common purpose required to tackle the poverty that it feeds on ?

76

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 16:06:36

#73 Scott
Of course the SE should do something about it - but do you think Glasgow is the only place in Scotland with bad housing and poverty? Money may well have been spent badly on the East Coast (the Parliament Building springs readily to mind - although that was initiated by a west coast politician) but it certainly wasn't on providing good housing. I know the article highlights Calton (and maybe that's because it's the biggest area), but do you think areas of Edinburgh or Dundee are really all that much better?

77

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 16:13:11

#75 Paul
Now that you've identified the problems we have in Scotland perhaps you could pop across in your lunch hour and fix them for us. It would obviously be very easy for you to do that - maybe they could all have a "group hug" and a wee chat over a cup of herbal tea!

78

SC,

17/09/2006 16:19:09

JG and Scott,

You propose spending more money1 That is what Labour have been doing for 50 years - and guess what, people are still poor.

Please J. Burns and actually listen to what he is saying. Welfare does not work.

We are talking about people who get everything for free - homes, fags, booze. Why would they every want to work?

79

Joanna,

Cambs 17/09/2006 16:20:04

Scott @ 73

" Our government have to start addressing these problems in our largest city which would have no doubt been tackled and dealt with a long time ago had they existed in our beloved capital"

When you say 'our beloved capital' I assume you mean London, if I am wrong I apologise. There is, unfortunately, nearly half a million children in London who are estimated to be living in poverty. Please see the link http://www.londonchildpoverty.org.uk/

That any children anywhere in the UK are living in poverty in the 21st century is a national disgrace. Especially, when one sees how much wealth is squandered on trivia - such as meaningless celebrities and footballer's salaries. I, personally, find it obsence that people spend thousands of pounds on a designer outfit when there are children living in this country in squalid conditions and without decent food or clothing. It is reminiscent of the depravity and selfishness of the aristocrats just prior to the French Revolution and history tells us what happened to them.

This is the link for the campaign group in the UK who are trying to elimiate child poverty:

http://www.cpag.org.uk/

80

SC,

17/09/2006 16:20:06

*********Correction*********

"Please reread J. Burns"

Sorry.

81

ex ex-pat,

edinburgh 17/09/2006 16:22:44

No point blaming one political party or another for Scotland's woes. Though, come to think of it, Labour has been in power here since time immemorial.................. I have visited many "deprived areas"; I've been inside these hell-holes, and it is very depressing to see how some people live. There is no excuse for central and local government to ignore the facts. Likewise, there is no excuse for people to go on using cigarettes, alcohol and drugs, since they know these things make them ill and ultimately kill them. If they ate sensibly, and took some responsibility for their own and their families' wellbeing, their lives would be better. Poverty is no excuse for stupidity.

82

klaxxon,

Houston,TX 17/09/2006 16:24:56

Sounds exactly like the what happened to Blacks here in the US..The Democratic party and their own piss poor "leaders" keep them in a cycle of poverty and dependence to lock in their votes. It is a hard nut to crack and you have my sympathy...

83

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 16:28:11

#78 Stewart I agree that just chucking money at it won't fix the poverty problem(see my contributions at #19 and #32). I had a look at the website that showed pictures of Inverclyde and it's disgusting. If the housing associations are providing houses for people should they not be obliged to make them habitable?

84

Visiting,

17/09/2006 16:29:28

American correspondents are missing the point a bit. Yours is a country which is built on inequality. The gulf between rich and poor is greater than in any European country. It is your choice to live in that kind of divided society but most Scots would prefer a more equal society. Rather than copy the US I think most people would prefer to look at the Scandinavian model. A competitive economy but also social justice and social cohesion with people taking responsibility for their neighbours and their communities. That's what the vast majority of Scots want - and we can get it, but only if we are prepared to go our own road and ditch the failed UK policies which have landed us in this mess to begin with.

85

SC,

Dundee 17/09/2006 16:30:10

Brenda, there is one political party you can blame above all.

Labour tell people, "it's not your fault, we'll give you everything you need."

Unfortunately, some of it is their fault, and Labour can only give them what they could get for themselves anyway by destroying the wider economy.

86

klaxxon,

Houston,TX 17/09/2006 16:45:55

No Miss H #84 Our country is not built on inequality, it is built on the right of every woman and man to rise as far as their ambition and talent will take them. My ancestors came here because of the inequalities that exsisted over there. Surely you have heard of the mass migrations from Ireland....
You miss the point in that social cohesion and justice start with individuals taking resposibility for themselves first. We do take care of our neighbors ..worldwide we are the most generous nation on earth...get your facts straight...

87

Richard C,

Aberdeen 17/09/2006 16:50:20

Labour Party MP's waffle about socialism in these deprived, despairing areas in order to get the votes which send them to London so they can live the high-life as champagne socialists in the British parliament, join various left-leaning groups, attend parliamentary committees, go to all sorts of meetings etc. Even since the Labout Party has become the party of privatisation and war these Labour Party hacks see no better prospect for themselves doing anything else.

88

Colleen,

Dallas, Tx 17/09/2006 16:50:56

Thank you Robert # 51 for the most instructive of videos on your home town. I also signed up to have other videos sent to me. It is a great web site to show others what it is exactly like where you are living. I sent the video links to all my friends with the message, " this is what it is like when one party gets in power for decades". We need balance in our govt.

I kept asking myself, how can people live like this? What happened to personal responsibilty? Does any one ever complain to those in power that someone needs to pick up the trash? In New York City, we had a mayor who had the brillant idea, clean up the little problems, like picking up the trash, enforce the rules, and it soon works it ways up the ladder. It is called Zero Tolerance. Now, I am not advocating the Taliban type of Zero Tolerance, where no one is allowed to disagree with their idea of how the world should be run. Zero Tolerance is about not allowing the cities that you live in degenerate down to the level where your once beloved city as become. I am so sorry that you have to live this way. I have always believed in what my gramma taught me, plant a rose where ever you are, no matter what the conditions are, and leave the place in better shape than what you found it. The rose she was talking about was what you do with your life. Good Luck Robert # 51 in trying to show others what it looks like when you give up.
It does not get any better, it just gets worse, so keep on trucking, as they say here in the states.

89

The Leith Cowboy BAM BAM,

17/09/2006 18:11:08

Personal Responsibility is sadly lacking here in Scotland, once you've passed your teenage years and have learnt how to tidy your bedroom the rest SHOULD be easy.

You know what - I'm GLAD we have poor people. People to clean our Offices - when you can trust them, people to help my shares in BAT industries and Inbev (Interbrew).

That's the truth. If they don't care about themselves i'm not going to let my heart bleed for them.

90

Ricky,

Scotland 17/09/2006 18:26:07

Hey! F@*K it! Lets just use all us poor to fight a friggin war - it’ll keep the numbers down - teach us our place, now where can we start? - ah! the Empire is reversing and we’ve about arrived at the begining again - now where did it start? that only leaves the Scottish fighting the English! Should be fun!

That daft King Jack of Scotland - what was he thinking when he started the union and designed the Flag?

91

Esther. Mexico.,

17/09/2006 18:31:48

Grrr...there's always so much foolish nation-bashing here.
Blame, blame.

I have to ask again...what do the Irish know that eludes the Scots?
I remember seeing poverty in Ireland many years ago, and now look at them. How did they make this incredible leap?
Are they better educated, smarter, harder working, what?

If the Scottish politicians are lacking vision, let them look to Ireland.
What's so different, I wish someone here would enlighten me please.
What are their leaders doing that's not being addressed in Scotland. Educate me, I'm outta touch.

92

Richard C,

Aberdeen 17/09/2006 18:36:12

Ireland would be a lot better-off if it was run from Westminster.

93

stevek28,

Philadelphia/Prestwick 17/09/2006 18:37:41

No one is talking about the elephant in the room. Unless I've missed it, the gov't doesn't breakdown the life expectancy by religion. Given the racism toward Catholics in the west of Scotland (and the rest of Scotland as a whole) I claim a wide gap between Catholic and Protestant life expectancy. There will be no improvement without a revolution in thinking about religious sectarianism

94

mcbogtrotter,

U.S. 17/09/2006 18:45:20

The Irish are credited with saving civilization, due to Priests recopying the latin and greek books there by saving knowledge of their civilization and science for future generations. At the same time education played a large role in Irish society, it is said that a person could come from anywhere and the Irish would feed, clothe, and educate them free and this was offered to women equally as well as to men.
It was also said that few people would separate themselves from their kind to come and take advantage of this opportunity.
People this was in the 5th century and not a lot has changed since then, people as a whole still think the same way, there are some who will achieve and many who are not interested in achieveing, just feeding themselves is enough.
Many people work very hard at getting by, but few can start a company and take it to the place where they employ 40,000 people and we usually disparage them all, however one thing is clear all of us are needed to succeed. It is also very clear that some need to be prodded into action, unless all that work want to support them for the rest of their lives I personally dont go along with the above notion. So in the States we limit welfare (the dole) to you across the pond to 2 years so society will pay you for 2 years to help get your stuff together, and it has been working. We also have night schools and many other learning opportunitys for free, also there is a program where the government will pay 2/3 of a persons salary and the company thats hires them will pay 1/3 for 2 years to get a person in the work force and get them trained.
We are not totally heartless as some have alluded to in this post. A person has to have a sense of self worth, and self respect and a knowledge that they can do more than just exist, this starts with a job and learning to care for yourself, some just need a good nudge and this has been proven time and again.
It might surprize many of you to know that even in

95

Andromeda,

17/09/2006 18:46:00

I was a second generation "Caltonian." I could hardly wait to get out of it and came to N. America in the 60's.
The first time I returned (after more than 20 years) I burst into tears right on the street when I saw the old place.
There seemed to be no rhyme or reason to the "re-development."

I am sorry to hear about the damp conditions in the homes. We had the same problem in the tenement I was raised in. Wallpaper would not stick to the walls because of the damp. Like the woman quoted in the story, I was very ill with bronchial problems. No, I have never smoked in my life. The problem, at that time, was the dirty air from coal fires, etc.
Like many correspondents have said, people need to take matters into their own hands to pull themselves out of their bad situation. Yes, I understand how the social services hamster wheel keeps people locked into an awful cycle, but for the younger people, and I mean anyone who still has some health and motivation, I'd suggest that a family member move to another city (or country, even), find well paying work, and send money back to the family until such time as they can afford to move, if that is their choice.

It is unfortunate that people have to move right away from their home place, but at some point one must cut through the denial. If Calton hasn't improved in the almost 100 years that I am aware of, what are the chances that some life-altering policies will be put in place now?

Just a couple more thoughts--people in Calton must start believeing in themselves and their right to a better life. Secondly, it would be a start if the council hired people to clean up the garbage, put in more park spaces on vacant ground, get rid of graffiti and generally encouraged people to take some pride in what they have.

Calton has potential. But the people themselves have to believe it and work with everyone from their neighbours to the policy makers to change things.

96

klaxxon,

Houston,TX 17/09/2006 19:14:41

Seamus #94,
Great comments!!
What a lot of peole don't know also is how poorly treated Irish and Scottish immigrants were treated when they first came to the US. They were marginalized, denied employment, villified in the press, shoved in to slums that are far worse than anything you would see today, but because of their inner strength and belief in a dream they radically changed the course of the US in less than two generations!!
No one could ever convince me that that same spirit does not live on , even in the poorest conditions...Throwing money around doesn't and won't inspire people or a nation...Leadership and vision does.....

97

margaux,

New Jersey USA 17/09/2006 19:31:59

I no very liitle of either countries politics. Two things I do know. Wefare breeds gererations of welfare receipants.
In USA if you have a child over 5 who has no handicap you need to work. They have time to get a trade etc. but at the end of the day the give away is done. By this method you change a way of life.

I was sent to the states at age 14 to care for two liitle boys. I have worked everyday for all those years never had my hand out. 40 years later all I want to do is go home. Unfortuately I cannot afford to move home to Scotand so I will spend the rest of my days wishing. not cying or complaining.

98

Alvie,

Idaho 17/09/2006 19:41:35

#84 Miss H:
I contest your statement that "[the USA] is a country which is built on inequality. . . It is your choice to live in that kind of divided society. . . but most Scots would prefer a more equal society." But I contest it not out of a desire to defend American societal norms--even conscientious Americans have criticized America's shortcomings much more accurately and fairly than the gratuitous and superficial comments you have just made.

This condescending attitude of moral superiority is tinged with more that a little whiff of sanctimony. It reminds me exactly of many Europeans' attitudes in the 50s and 60s about racial prejudice in the US. "Ain't it awful!" was the reaction in the Old World (and of course, awful it truly was) as the US finally and definitively began to air it's dirty racial laundry. Where things got sanctimonious was when Europeans thought by comparison they were morally superior to Americans concerning attitudes about race. It was easy to point to America's shortcomings vis-a-vis race when Europe's--including Britain's--populace was practically 100 percent indigenous white. In 2006 do Europeans still feel superior to Americans when it comes to race relations? Not any more, when,because of changed demographics, they are now grappling with the same problems that most Americans have in large part faced and resolved.

But I digress. The subject is how to achieve a better balance of economic and social equality in depressed areas of Scotland. And here I posit that the American approach of incentives for self-exertion and a feeling of individual responsibility and self worth is a going to prove a more sustainable model for a better society than the paternalism (maternalism?) of the nanny state.

You speak of "the Scandinavian model" providing the "social justice and social cohesion with people taking responsibility for their neighbours and their communities." P

99

Eric D,

France 17/09/2006 19:43:23

The route out of such a situation used to be education. I lived in a similar deprived area, and was able to get out because the Government and local authority paid my training costs and a bursary
which led to a good job. Today , there are no Government sponsored vocational courses , or financial assistance. I know this because I became unemployed 4 yrs ago, and experienced the difference first hand. The market rules - if someone wants re-educated or trained , they have to pay for it through a loan or graduate tax (yes , every student studying to Hons level must pay back some of the tuition fees).This must be a big deterrent for anyone in very low income seeking a way out.

Government can make a difference.They can start by demolishing the damp housing stock and build homes fit for living .

They can offer a way out by providing free and lasting training courses to the unemployed and school leavers.

They can encourage investment and jobs into the area ( The Irish economical miracle arose due mainly to the slashing of corporation tax )

100

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 20:08:48

Part of the reason it is not possible to finance everyone through University is because there far too many worthless and pointless courses now. Speak to the teenagers - they want to be actresses, models, pop stars and football players. Obviously these are pipe dreams, but off large numbers of them go to study Drama, Media Studies, Sports Science and Tourism - all to degree level!!! What for? There is a real need for the more practical skills like joiners, plumbers, electricians, nurses etc.. What's wrong with learning trades like that? Everybody needs them - and they earn good money (you try to find a plumber when you need one!). Why are young people not encouraged in the direction their skills take them? Not everyone can be a brain surgeon or rocket scientist.

101

Meg McMuffin,

sydney 17/09/2006 20:10:01

Esther in Mexico. I'll answer your question: "How did Ireland get an economy?" Simple: They havebled the EU coffers dry, fiddled the fishing and agricultural quotas, laundered dirty money for terrorists, and sucked the tits off Egland, which they supposedly despise!

Strangely, they ape English society, with their class system/sports/pub culture (the Oirish pub is but a marketing myth - much like the "country" itself.)

Oh, and they receive millions every year in dole money, from England: Irish living near the border of Northern Ireland "commute" back and forth receiving dole moey and free health care.

"A Nation Once Again?" It never was one!!!!!!

102

Duncan,

The Minch 17/09/2006 20:22:24

Guga 63. Thans. What is the life expectancy on Rockall?

103

The Pict.,

Canada 17/09/2006 20:40:54

Instead of worrying about the comedy of "Patriotic" Jerk ah, Jack. Scotland should be worrying about correcting the poverty situtation by itself. Until full INDEPENDANCE is achieved that will not happen because it can't. You cannot put pressure on politicians who don't give a monkey's about Scotland and the Scottish people.
What pride does any Scot have in being ruled by England?
No matter what weak-kneed excuses are given about what party is to blame these parties are controlled directly or indirectly by England.

Don't blame England. Blame yourselves and have the guts to vote for your own SCOTTISH government.

Now back to the patriotic one. Question: Patriotic to which country?

104

JG,

Fife 17/09/2006 20:59:54

David, the subject for this string is POVERTY - just in case you hadn't bothered to read the top bit. You know, the long part at the beginning where you find out what the SUBJECT is. It's not really so you can chuck in a party political broadcast on behalf of the SNP.

105

Richard C,

Aberdeen 17/09/2006 21:08:05

Good point, David (102). The Scottish Labour Party takes the Scottish people for granted. The more of us live in poverty and deprivation the better it is for them in terms of getting elected to Westminster. They would prefer if we all lived in council houses, because owning your own home results in a change of mentality: instead of voting Labour people think for themselves because now they believe in themselves. They are more likely to vote SNP. I, too, believe this is the best way to solve our problems, i.e. independence and full self-government. Reference has already been made to Ireland. Do you think Ireland would be better-off today if it was being controlled from London?

106

Rita Gemmell,

Edmonton, Alberta. 17/09/2006 21:47:46

I can't understand why anyone would be drawn into one of these debates with Patriotic Jack, who is too chicken to tell us where he is from.
The subject of this article was poverty and the class system which still exists in Scotland no matter how many people like to think that things have changed that much.
I remember the rivers you couldn't fish because they belonged to someone else, like it was their birthright to own water that flowed through their estate. This is only one example but if things like this still exist in any way so does the class system.
Poverty is everyone's problem. It breeds crime, violence and dispair and just because you don't live in the neighbourhood doesn't mean it won't affect you.

107

Lumber Jack,

Fife 17/09/2006 22:28:24

Just come back to this site but think it's time for a re-cap.
All the problems in Scotland are due to Labour/Catholics/Protestants/Irish/Americans/ourselves!
Plenty of people to blame but very little in the way of solutions to the problem of poverty. This reminds me of the story of four people: Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it but Nobody did. Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody’s job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it but Nobody realized that Everybody would not do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when actually Nobody asked Anybody.
Time for you to get off you’re a**e and do something!

108

Sanny,

Ex-Pat Scot. 17/09/2006 22:41:03

Gerarde @ 64:
I assume your not a Muslim and therefore work for Shell or one of its contractors in the Shellfare state. Yes, I too worked there for five years hence I know how grossly overpaid you are.

So now your attitude is pull the ladder up jack I’m OK. It is to be hoped that you keep your word and do not return to Scotland. We need people who will strive to raise our country up, not cretins who can only look after number one.

109

famie,

australia 17/09/2006 22:45:46

If you live in a culture that is deteriorating it's not that simple Michael. Entrenched poverty is not broken just by a 'positive attitude'. It will take generations to sort this disgraceful situation and my heart aches for my fellow countrymen and women whose life is so bereft. I left Scotland a long time ago but the memories of the poverty which I grew up in have never faded. The callousness of some of the contributers to these pages is shameful. Still what else could you expect from a Christian country these days. It's much the same downunder where the indigenous people are to blame for the deprivation that they have suffered since Captain Cook first claimed this amazing land for the British Crown.

110

,

17/09/2006 22:47:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
111

Caliwag,

York but formerly perth 17/09/2006 22:58:53

I got bored reading the vitriol.
FFS surely its about the next generation!
Doesn't matter whether it's Perth, Wigan, Southend or Byker there are kids out there that have no idea what's going on. Just remember what you thought when you were 12!!
Girls and boys need to be given chances to show themselves, to impress or be involved, it is all about being involved!! if you are not "involved" you cannot contribute, flourish, develop, be part of thye grand scheme (anarchists stop reading now).
Why don't we give people a chance? kids a chance? they are raring to go, given a hint of a chance.
As I say just think back to when you were 10 or 12!!! Just ask them what they want, tell them to follow up their curiosity and, for God's sake, point them vaguely, or definitively, in the right direction.
It's the absolute least we can do!
All the best, Caliwag

112

jazzmann,

17/09/2006 23:14:07

And the politicians still swan off on expense paid trips extolling the virtues of multicultural scotland ,not any change there . The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer,here comes privatisation of the utilities,all for the best of course!!!

113

jimboo,

the wemyss 17/09/2006 23:30:36

110 comments before this one and 99 of them utter garbage. I've seen more sense on Yahoo answers. Tom Devine, a great historian and recognised as a brilliant researcher throughout the world makes a serious comment on par with Disraeli's "Two Nations". Read the article again, decide what you can do toalleiviate the mans concerns, and do it.

114

The Pict.,

Canada 17/09/2006 23:34:28

Hullo # 103. JG Fife Well facts are facts. If you can refute what I said then please do so. If you do not get the connection between being kept poor and politics then you will no doubt forever live in a council house. Perhaps you do get the connection and are a supporter or organizer of the labour party. Which is CONTROLLED by England whether you like it or not.

The rubbish from that party, which bears direct reponsibility for having done nothing to get rid of the poverty, is deigned only to keep its' executive in the money.
Thank you for pointing out where the beginning of the article is located. I get the point .

Richard # 104 makes an excellent point when he says that when you own your own house rather than rent a council one your thinking matures and common sense takes over.

Most of Scots who live abroad see what is going on. If a people is kept down then eventually violence and all sorts of crime take over. It's great to read the views of us Scots who do live abroad.

And YES JG Fife # 103 I am an AVID SNP supporter. I admit to sending money to the SNP to support all Scottish people including my relatives. And perhaps some of their policies are not agreeable but you can do something about it when Scotland is Independent.

Last point: I get nothing personally out of this when the SNP take over. I have my own house and would like to see all Scottish people have theirs -- Not a Council House as you JG are suggesting by implication.

115

The Pict.,

Canada 17/09/2006 23:51:23

Rita #105 Your analysis is right on. You have summed up most of the origins of the problem. Without total independence Scotland cannot begin to address those and the many other problems facing the future.
When I go back home for a holiday I don't notice some of the things you mention. Perhaps because we have a pride in who we are and won't take any c*** from anybody. AS # 104 Richard says. We don't rent council houses. That is a very profound statement.

116

Esther. Mexico.,

18/09/2006 00:10:11

Seamus 94. I read that book that you mentioned; 'How the Irish saved Civilization'
but have you read "How the Scots invented the modern world" ?
This book, written by non-Scot, was recently on the best-seller list for almost a year.
It should be required reading in Scottish schools, it's inspiring, and makes one proud to come from a country where so many giants influenced much of the civilized world.
Thousands of us came out of those tenements with nothing but our dreams, we somehow overcame our earlier 'deprivation' often by sheer dumb luck, hard work, talent, or being in the right place at the right time.
So back to the original issue, 'Poverty in Scotland' There's no pat answers, but a people with so much intellectual talent and just plain commonsense, know that change has to begin with the children.

117

missing home,

18/09/2006 01:41:02

A lot of what is posted here is true and a lot is bull***t. 65, right on the money. Things would be better if people did not vote party, no matter who the candidate. Vote for the best person for the job please. Think for yourselves. Scots don't hate the English people, they don't like the government and they don't like having been forced into a 'union' by government tactics and some, unfortunately, have long, grudgeful memories, (Campbells/McDonalds anyone?) For what it's worth, I was born in England of Scottish born parents and raised in southwest Scotland. I now live in US but would return to Scotland in a heartbeat. Poverty and disfunction exist almost everywhere. The problems in Scotland are similar to anywhere in Britain outside of the greater London area, which, it seems, is Britain.

118

Virgil,

Victoria, BC,Canada 18/09/2006 01:53:29

Frequently I read the articles in the Scotsman and occasionally I puruse the Comments. This however is the first time I have written a comment and the reason that I am doing so now is to express my own long interest in the subject matter. I left Scotland in 1946 to marry a Canadian girl, a CWAC, whom I had met in London three years ealier and we bacame engaged just before D-Day. Still happy in marriage with an extended family I return to the UK on a regular basis and although much has changed, much has not and I am often saddened by the deplorable living conditions of some. I grew up and attended school in an area of Glasgow, Williamwood, which kept me immune from those less fortunate children until I entered the army and at the outbreak of war, skipping out after just one year of university and my introduction to the British class system was made when my credentials were to take me straight into officer training. I was demobbed with the rank of Major. Shortly after I returned home, a friend of my sister's visited our home to ask my father if she could use our address for her return mail. An unusual request, and curious, my father asked the obvious question and was informed by her, that she was applying for a position, for which she had a very impressive CV but a very inappropriate address.My father although not naive was shocked, I was not. Worse to tell however was the attitude of her own family who accused her of going "out of her class"!I don't have the right to comment on contemporary British politics, living in another country, but I can on the structure of British society which is as Victorian as it has always been. The squalor that Jack London encountered and reported in his book all those years ago is still prevalent today. I suspect that no political leader has the courage or desire to change the system and no political party has any say in it. I can read the comments in this column and can pretty well tell from which economic and cultural ba

119

Rankbadyin,

New Zealand 18/09/2006 03:07:57

In surveying what has been written so far, I'm struck by the fact that most of the people reporting improvements in their lives are those who 1) moved away from poor areas, and 2) decided they should OWN SOMETHING. Perhaps that points to motivation: what's the point of challenging the entrenched culture of a depressed neigghbourhood, or of attempting to improve someone else's property (i.e., a rental)? I believe we need to support the disadvantaged - but perhaps Scotland should consider that existing social programmes may be a deadly disincentive?

120

Esther. Mexico.,

18/09/2006 03:15:35

Robert Victoria 117.
I found your comment interesting ...that you could tell
which 'cultural and economic bckground' the U.K. correspondents are from.
The only thing I can tell is whether or not they have 'class' Some people have 'style' no matter what their background.

121

jim,

Brookings SD 18/09/2006 03:37:35

I love all you Brits. To blame the Carlton situ on one another as nationalities is shortsighted.

My first taste of real socialism was when I lived in England for two years in the late 60s.

In the late 80s I worked in southern Alabama in church benevolence and saw the tragedy of socialist programs in the US. We called such folks "sit and git". That's was the attitude of multigenerational welfare, just sit and get all you can from the gov.

In the 90s I spent nine years in Russia. The great Soviet socialist experiment was (is) a catastrophe. When I described it to a friend who grew up in the ghetto of Kansas City, he frequently said, "Jim that sound like where I grew up." At the end of our conversation, he said "Socialism makes such children out of men."

That is the result -- people who grow up dependent on a system that destroys incentive. and personal initiative. Socialism and its welfare programs, does not really help people, it keeps them in poverty. As on elderly Russian told me when I told him of problems in trying to help people, he said "Every Russian has his hand out." That is the result of cradle to grave socialism.

Further, it seems ludicrous to tax people to pay a large portion to bureaucrats to dole out meager sums which ultimate make people lazy and corrupt (scheming how to get on the system and get a bigger slice of the pie. If the money which went to taxes was left in the pockets of the earners, it would be spent and create greater demand in teh economy , hence more factories and jobs... and the bureaucrats would by necessity to find honest productive work.

So my good neighbors and citizens of this world and the great British nations, quit blaming one another and change the system. As difficult as that will be, it must be done. Somewhere the cycle of dependency must be broken, before it destroys you. May God bless you with wisdom as you make that gr

122

The Pict.,

Canada 18/09/2006 03:42:54

# 118 Gordon.
One of the hidden problems for most people is the school system -- not only in Scotland -- . Children are not taught to think and evaluate and perhaps the teachers don't know how to teach that 'skill'. e.g. when you read a book do we look at who the author is? do we know his background? Does he have a hidden agenda ? Are his views biased ?

That's only a start but I find that most people can be bullied verbally by insults and other methods.

e.g. That system should be changed in my opinion. (WEAK)
That system must be changed. (STRONG).

The media are very skillful at writing things in a certain way to give a 'hidden' message.

People are conned into thinking that the best for them is to be given free gov't money for example.

123

Andromeda,

18/09/2006 05:07:26

To David #121
I don't agree with your statements about the problem being that children are not encouraged to think and evaluate. I had primary and secondary school in Scotland in the 50's and 60's and I don't recall ever once being asked to evaluate anything. I do recall being bullied, having my face slapped and generally scared witless. (We called it a good Scottish education.) But, I did learn to read and write and count and all the basics which has stood me in good stead. But the point I am trying to make is that so many of my baby boomer generation left Scotland and settled in NZ, USA, Canada etc. Many of us made good. Some of us made good in a big way. Not because we had been taught to evaluate at school, but because we looked at what we didn't have and knew we could do better somewhere else where the wasn't the barrier of accent, class, religion, or lack of employment prospects for people who wanted to get ahead.

124

Rankbadyin,

New Zealand 18/09/2006 05:26:50

Thanks, David in Canada, and M (121 & 122).
In 120 I pointed out that most people who overcome poverty do it by physically getting out of the situation and by deciding to OWN their own future. I'm not sure abouts David's suggestion that bureaucracy and the school system are to blame for keeping Scots unlearned and impoversished (I think that was what he was saying). In my schooldays in Scotland in the '50s we got a good basic education (and that was useful when I went to the US & NZ), but - living in a tenement in Govanhill - there were no prospects beyond that. It seems things are the same, or worse, now. Maybe the SNP could drag Scotland into the real world?

125

Colleen,

Dallas, Tx 18/09/2006 05:31:32

To Jim # 120 from Brookings S.D.

Amen!! Thank you so much for putting what I think and feel into words. I hope you will write in again telling us of your experiences. From a fellow midwesterner from Wisner, Neb. Loved the sit and get label!

126

Sharon D.,

Toronto 18/09/2006 06:48:22

Robert 51, watched your link; Wow, havn't the folks that live there ever said
'lets get together and clean this mess up ?"
Or do most think like T.53" oh sorry I guess, if T.53 "would have to pay 4K for their central heating", they don't live in that squaller,. but you do, get together and get it done, if you wait for 'the goverment' you'll be waiting a long time,,,

127

SC,

Dundee 18/09/2006 07:03:22

I welcome all our correspondants from around the World!

It is great to see such impassioned and persuasive arguments against Socialism.

People of Scotland, wake up and think again about how we run our country. It is not helping people, it is just keeping them poor.

128

Sean G,

Valhalla 18/09/2006 07:39:01

"Robert 51, watched your link; Wow, havn't the folks that live there ever said
'lets get together and clean this mess up ?"
Or do most think like T.53" oh sorry I guess, if T.53 "would have to pay 4K for their central heating", they don't live in that squaller,. but you do, get together and get it done, if you wait for 'the goverment' you'll be waiting a long time,,,"

Unfortunately these people have been reared for generations in a culture of dependency where they expect everything to be done for them. Throwing money at them only makes matters worse.

Another issue is that 3/4's of the world's population would risk life and limb to swap their current lives for this!

129

JG,

Fife 18/09/2006 08:14:46

#113 David
I actually do not have any problem with you having a political opinion (I just thought we were supposed to be giving our thoughts on solutions to poverty) - I have one too. It's called freedom of choice. You have absolutely no idea of my residential situation or my real political stance. How do you know whether I live in a council house or not? Many thousands of people in Fife actually own their homes. Also I did not suggest that everyone should live in a council house - I'm only realistically stating that not everyone can afford to buy a house and need to live SOMEWHERE. I'm sure not everyone in Canada owns their own place either.

130

Duncan,

The Minch 18/09/2006 09:05:29

FIONA 54.
Have just read your post, federalism may work in a relatively new country like the USA. But it is not for this ancient kingdom.
We are Geographicaly, Geologicaly, Ethnicaly and Culturaly different from England. Federalism would only magnify the problems that exist, poverty being but one.
Any Scot with an ounce of pride and a knowledge of our history would be repulsed by such a system. As a nationalist I want the wrong that was done 300 years ago put right. We were betrayed by greedy grabbing noble men who were terrified of losing there power base. Commoners had no option but to be dragged into a Union with our auld enemy.
Poverty amongst our people can be eradicated, but the Labour machine needs it, to justify there self interested existence. Is there a more odious sight than 'Gorbals Mick' standing up in the commons, looking like something that dropped of a panto horse, and shouting, "orrder orrder," while his constituents are amongst the most deprived in the UK. He is a damn disgrace and I am angry every time I see his fat overfed overprivileged jowls flapping on the telly.
How can our politicians have an ounce of credibility when they are so obviously gross. Have you ever seen a thin one.
They build a monster palace to there ego in Holywood, massive amounts of money thrown at it, incompetence every where. Flabby Fraser spends even more cash looking into it, whilst filling his own trousers with cash. And that bloody Doig women is allowed to say she has no idea why she fixed the preffered contractor list, and then walks away smirking to another overpaid job, and massive pension. And we are supposed to admire there corpulent egotistical greedy personalities, no thankyou. do we really get the politicians we deserve.
I suppose if the poor people of Calton, Craigmillar etc. could organise themselves and camp out side Holwood, they might change something. Other wise it is more of the same. Independence I think w

131

Cazz,

scotland 18/09/2006 09:12:33

Although not everyone can afford to own a house, surely people should not expect the state to automatically provide them with free accommodation. Complaining about overcrowding when you have just had your fourth child is ridiculous- I fail to understand why my taxes should support someone else's perceived right to procreate. If you wish to have children, fine. Have them. But please make sure you have suitable accommodation and means of supporting them. To make a sweeping generalisation (that I will probably receive some verbal abuse for) if a family is working they will only have as many children as they can provide for, however many families on benefits will have children despite lack of financial support and then expect the state to provide them with accommodation, clothes and food. And these many children, born into the poorer areas of cities will find it harder to find well paid employment due to the undeniable class system existing in scotland. And so the dependancy cycle continues.
Surely people must take responsibility for their own situation and admit that their dream of 6 kids and a garden for the dog may have to be put on hold until they get a better job and save some money.

In addition, the government must undertake some reform of the current benefits system where people initially feel penalised for going to work. Having spent some time in council offices recently though I doubt this will happen anytime in the near future with the current system's excessive beaucracy and wastage.

132

Billy,

Germany 18/09/2006 09:34:49

Years of labour rule , bought with continous benefit rises, produces this class who see those who work as idiots. Go to any pub in the area and I bet it's heaving
with beer bellies on benefit throwing their hard earned handouts down their necks. If scotland needs more workers then why is there so many people in this area unemployed. Get of yor arses and start providing for your families , in the mean time, any chance of you cleaning up your own living enviroment , it's disgusting.
No ? thought not.

133

D. Graham,

Co. Cork, Republic of Ireland 18/09/2006 11:58:26

Heather in Sydney, you clearly dont have a clue what you are talking about. Having lived on the border of the Republic and the Uk, I can tell you now that it is virtually impossible to 'commute' as you say back and forth from one country to the other. Dont you think that both governments had already thought that could be taking place. Fiddled quotas? I think not. A recent quota brought in has had some negative effects along the southern coastline. And as for 'laundered dirty money for terrorists' I think that you have foolishly been swallowed in by the propaganda of the gutter press english tabloids. Oh and last time i checked, I had an irish passport, not a british one. I think that makes us a nation whether you like it or not. Dont forget that the country you are living in was built by the Irish, as many countries have been. If you've got a problem with that go to the South east of England where Im sure you would fit in very well with your attitudes.

134

sandy,

USA 18/09/2006 12:06:43

i'm from a family of 13, & all were born in 40's & 50's. my mother(Scot/Irish-decent) was a proud lady. we were dirt poor, but we & our surroundings
were clean & when we could(sometimes age 11) we
worked. we learned personal responsibility at all levels. we were fortunate. i don't see that here (USA) today, for the term "it takes a village" is the norm. everyone else is responsible for raising your children. our gov't has become the nanny. in 1995 the Republican party became the majority party in the House of Representatives after more than 50yrs.
they passed legislation & Clinton signed it that changed the wellfare system, totally. it's not been an easy transition for some, but it's working. many have found that pride in themselves & are passing that to their children. do you think perhaps the Scots
that left & made their way might return & help to figure what solution is best? i just hope the good people of Scotland can fix this. best to you!

135

David,

Malaysia 18/09/2006 13:05:10

#51,Robert's video of Inverclyde was shocking, but some years ago I was shown an area probably just as bad, situated literally on a mountain-top ,near Abergavenny in Wales.The area was known as "Beirut"and the nickname seemed apt !I have seen some areas of London and others in north of England which are also sadly deprived, so it is not just a Scottish problem!
#68 Stewart -I agree that the benefits system encourages the "wee man frae the tap o' the Hill wha never worked and never will " mentality, but unfortunately when young people see others who have contributed nothing, "playing the system,"they can hardly be blamed for doing the same ! Apart from what #61 Richard, calls the "Champagne Socialism"practised by so many, there is also the prevalent attitude that unemployed people will accept only a specific job of their choice ! No job is demeaning ! I believe in -and I practise every day -giving respect to everyone, but "kow-towing" to no-one ! All jobs are important !
That said,with all the widely differing views expressed here ,surely there must be an answer to this problem ! Is it what #131 Billy suggests,or do we just need a politician of any persuasion( I did think to say an honest politician) who will not be self-serving , and will work to eradicate this problem ?

136

Bejjy,

Lowlands 18/09/2006 15:12:32

Angus Og 129. Not only have you a warped sense of Scottish history but you have no sense of modern day Scotland and the people that live here. In your rant, you seem to indicate that you represent the view of the Scottish nation as a whole. Lets make it clear; you do not. Read your piece again, your even confused about where the present day parliament building is situated. For your information it is at Holyrood and not holywood or holwood as you would have us believe.

137

Boab Street Resident,

Inverclyde 18/09/2006 16:25:59

125 Sharon, 127 bragi.

'lets get together and clean this mess up ?"

The decent people sure have. Although we're fighting a losing battle.

The flats involved are all private, of which there are only around 50 owner occupiers left in the area out of 430 properties.
Private landlords have been buying up all the flats and then letting them out to tenants on DSS benefits.

The landlords aren't bothered to much about who they put in their flats as long as the rent money is coming in.
The tenants are renting out poor quality properties and therefore don't have any respect for it or the surroundings.
The owner occupiers are left to deal with the resulting mess.

The video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqzVc-jd3Nc

138

jc,

18/09/2006 17:42:11

# 137 interesting (sad) video. Maybe a naive question, where does all the money come from for all the new couches, washers etc, . I was amazed at the amount of "junk" just put outside the door

139

Sharon D.,

Toronto 18/09/2006 18:57:59

137 Robert;
"The landlords aren't bothered to much about who they put in their flats as long as the rent money is coming in.
The tenants are renting out poor quality properties and therefore don't have any respect for it or the surroundings.
The owner occupiers are left to deal with the resulting mess".
Hi Robert, Here is an idea,,a number of years ago we had a garbage strike here,, everyone was standing still, the authorities wouldn't talk to the union and so on,bla,bla, went on way to long,the garbage was pilling up in the parks, it was summer!! In the end, people just started to take their 'Garbage' UP TOWN to the mayors house, some people got arrested, the problem got solved,.,Find out where these "Landlords" live, take all those dirty old mattresses and crap and give it to them at their door, and inform the press your doing it,.,
It seems to me I'm forever spouting, Pro-Activeness on these blogs, but in truth what else can the average person do ? Except take things into their own hands ?

140

Duncan,

The Minch. 18/09/2006 19:46:47

Dan 136. I seem to have touched on a raw nerve with you. People on high horses tend to fall of. Am I not allowed to rant?
Have you had a sense of humour bypass. Holywood, Holwood. I am very well aware where it is.
So anyone posting on here is speaking for there nation, personal opinion I think.
With regards to history and modern day Scotland, I await your superior view! No doubt from the Lowlands it will be very enlightening.

141

sandy,

USA 18/09/2006 20:13:05

#139---good idea!!!

142

Sharon D.,

Toronto 18/09/2006 21:33:27

A slight correction;to no. 139, my daughter has cleared up my semi-memory problem,,the Garbage was taken ,UP TOWN to the provincial governments Premier's house,at the time mr.harris,not the mayors house.

143

Virgil,

Giffnock 18/09/2006 23:41:49

On reading over the comments so far I am most impressed by Robert #117 who is obviously a scholar and reports well by implementing historical examples.I agreee with his awakening statements on class and poverty, deptrivasion and our attitude towards them and we continue to wax on blaming the poor for being poor and some actually support the slum-landlords who make a fortune from their bug ridden, stinking hovels and then have the audacity to to criticise the tenents. Oh if only we could encourage them to burn the damned places down to the ground. We are a gutless nation who don't deserve self government for we have no idea what to do with it. The only difference betwen todays Scots and the example in #117 of the poor who waved Union Jacks is that we, Scots of all classes wave the the Blue and White, still for Queen and the country's wealthy monopoly and we kid ourselves that we are different from the English. Go out and smell the roses, the thistle stinks.

144

SwarmPhysics,

Greenbelt, Maryland, USA 19/09/2006 01:00:56

Civilization is not passed on in our genes. It's passed on in our values. As with the poor and dysfunctional here in the U.S., if values are not taught to the children, the cycle of moral poverty will be endless. Risky behavior breeds risky behavior (pardon my Yank spelling). The dysfunctionally-urbanized youth of Baltimore, Maryland, probably have the lowest life-expectancy of most on the planet. In Prince George's County, Maryland (bordering the District of Columbia), they have just reported that 94% of carjackings are by African-Americans. That county -- just one of over 3,000 U.S. counties -- accounts for 10% of all carjackings in the United States! The last FBI Uniform Crime Reports placed Maryland #1 in robbery rate among all U.S. states FOR THE ELEVENTH CONSECUTIVE YEAR. The same report places Maryland #2 for violence rate and #3 for murder. In some years, it is only New Orleans in Louisiana that keeps the state of Maryland from being #1 in murder. If anybody knows the secret of attacking the poverty of values that plagues our inner cities (like why Foot Locker is gutted like a trout after Katrina, but Barnes and Noble is untouched), please let us all know. Whatever the liberal party ruling Maryland has been doing the last four decades is not working.

145

Andromeda,

19/09/2006 05:54:11

To Edward #144.
When I read stats like you mention I cannot help but feel that something is going on that is perpetuating the behaviour. The punishment does not fit the crime, I guess.

Personally, I think it would be wonderful if moral education was put in place from infancy on. But even if it were, we'd still have the element of psychopaths who wouldn't give a damn.

I can't help but wonder if the punishment meted out in some countries (like having a hand cut off) was implemented in Maryland if the crime rate would drop?

146

Virgil,

Paisley 19/09/2006 08:50:00

To Edward #144. Very interesting but what has this to do with poverty in Scotland's disgusting class system. For a while I thought we might have a exchange of valid comments. And to M #145 get off of the bandwagon of Edward's creation and let us get back to the real problem. Or maybe just go to bed.

147

SILVANA,

~Glasgow 19/09/2006 10:15:24

Just a tad fed up with all this diatribe. I am on BENEFITS. I am a degree qualified (Twice) woman who through having a son, who became seriously ill and nearly died in the process of being medicated, also became seriously ill.
A) My absence from work for a period of three years means that I have next to no chance of getting work that I am capable of doing.

B) My age (56) albeit that this new wonderful law has been passed. still precludes me from working.

C) When I apply for positions I am told that I am over qualified. WHAT WOULD THE BOARD SUGGEST???

I live in a form of poverty but I have heat, light, food (of which there is little I can eat) and I have worked all of my life which means that I have paid my taxes and unlike some who take this system for granted, I am grateful that it exists.
Before my Armageddon, I used to be of the same attitude regarding people on benefits and poverty and that being, Get out and do something. Now I am caught in the benefits trap and I can assure all and sundry it is not easy to escape.

148

sandy,

USA 19/09/2006 10:26:05

#146--perhaps those of us like #144, from the USA
are giving our support by example, & to say been there done that, & best to the Scots, this is not easy.
the budget for the programs for the poor here is in excess of $300billion. if i may be so bold as to give you a name of the gentleman that turned our welfare system around, & it works.
Newt Gingrich, former speaker of the house.
<<newt.org>> just trying to help. good luck!!

149

Duncan,

The Minch 19/09/2006 13:17:32

136 DAN GLEN. Are you still consulting your history books or has your horse bolted ?

Wise horse!

150

Swarm,

Greenbelt, Maryland, USA 19/09/2006 13:29:59

The point is this. The U.S. has a massive dependent class that is not getting better. The greatest reason I have seen (as a trained scientist and engineer) for most of the depravity is the lack of values passed from one dependent generation to the next. It is the norm for kids to be raised by their grandparents, while the parent (1) is off on a drunk or scrounging for drugs, or otherwise being a burden on the social fabric. They are not wholly to blame, but they don't know any better. The values that pass on our civilization have to be passed to people in the first formative years of their lives. By the time they are of pre-school age, it is not too late, but the price of formation goes up. We can save troubled teens. I have helped many. But my God! What effort it takes! It is much more cost-effective to get to them when they are young, and give them the nurturing and love that they need. The press makes much of kids being shot in this country, but our own FBI Uniform Crime Reports reveal that kids from age 0 to 12, taken as a whole, are nearly 4 times more likely to be beaten to death than to be murdered in the much more celebrated gun incident. But we also know that for every kid who dies from a beating, there are many more with merely bruises and broken bones who are crying themselves to sleep. It is a horrid fact of inner city life, but until we somehow instill some values in these amoral adults and their wards, we will gain no ground. When a 12 year-old girl steps off a bus in the Inner Harbor of Baltimore and stabs a 15 year-old girl in the throat (dead on arrival), there's something more wrong than just the fact that they are both downtown after 10:00 p.m. on a school night. There is a legitimate role for government in providing a safety net for those who desperately need it, as some examples cited above, but for many, money is just being poured down a black hole. Think how many needy could be helped if wasted funds went where they were ac

151

Duncan,

The Minch 19/09/2006 13:31:49

In the mean time we have legislated for the foxes, the gay people, the smokers. The MSPs awarded themselves a 36% pay increase, and deep pension pots. They gave them selves medals. They have built themselves a huge temple to there egos at Holwood, Holyrude. (ok Dan.) There are more Tsars than there were in Russia. Outreach workers are hanging out of the trees.
Just so they can preside over some of the poorest people in Europe. Shame on every one of you, your greedy self serving grabbing selfishness casts a shadow on Scotland. Your medals are a damn disgrace. These are personal opinions not the views of the Scottish nation, but I speak to people who share these views. Politicians and Politics mean nothing in Calton, these are the disenfranchised and forgotten, the Scottish Aborigines.


 

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