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Scots building society collapses

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Published Date: 29 March 2009
SCOTLAND'S beleaguered financial sector suffered another body blow last night after it emerged the nation's biggest building society has effectively collapsed and will be put up for sale this week.
The Dunfermline Building Society seems certain to be merged with another institution after attempts to prop it up with a taxpayer bailout were judged to be doomed. Taxpayers will take on millions of pounds' worth of the Dunfermline's 'toxic assets', while profitable parts of the society will be offered to a new buyer.

The deal is a further dent in Scotland's reputation as a centre of financial probity, coming so soon after HBOS was merged with Lloyds and Royal Bank of Scotland was part- nationalised.

Last night, SNP ministers said they were "disappointed" with the Treasury decision to back a merger, while the local Liberal Democrat MP warned that the plan puts "hundreds of jobs" at risk.

The Dunfermline deal will mirror that which saw Bradford & Bingley split up last year and sold to the Spanish Santander group. Government officials claimed the move would not lead to job cuts and insisted that the building society's 250,000 savers and 35,000 borrowers would not be affected.

Chancellor Alistair Darling yesterday morning informed First Minister Alex Salmond about the plan. Prime Minister Gordon Brown, speaking in Chile yesterday, pledged that savers in the building society would be protected.

Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy blamed "reckless" decisions by the Dunfermline's previous management for its position. Last night, Murphy said: "The Treasury wanted a long-term, rather than a short-term, solution for the Dunfermline. The Government's priority is to protect savers, jobs and social housing and keep the society's branches in place while putting an end to uncertainty."

He added: "The solution should provide a stable and secure future for Dunfermline Building Society members and is one which acts in the best interests of the taxpayer."

The Dunfermline has been on life support after it emerged two weeks ago that it was about to make a significant loss as a result of writedowns on property investments made before the credit crunch. A disastrous IT project also cost millions. Well-placed sources suggested last night that those losses – predicted to be around £26m – were actually going to be far higher.

It was hoped that the building society could continue with funding from the Government of between £60m and £100m. But UK Government sources said yesterday that as the true scale of its losses became clear, regulators decided that the only "permanent solution" would be a merger.

No partner has been formally announced, but the Co-operative, Britannia, Nationwide and Yorkshire building societies have been linked to the Dunfermline in recent weeks. As with the HBOS takeover by Lloyds, there was mounting concern last night that the head office functions of the society would be lost by Scotland.

Salmond had proposed a package in which the Scottish Government would boost the Dunfermline's capital and guarantee its valuable social housing book. That deal remained on the table last night, but the Treasury insisted it would be pressing ahead with a merger.

A Scottish Government spokesman said last night: "We are deeply disappointed that the Treasury now believes it is not possible to sustain the society as an independent institution, given the importance to Scotland of HQ jobs and functions."

He added: "We hope that the Treasury has not closed its mind to the idea that, both in terms of employment and in terms of value for money for the public purse, maintaining Dunfermline Building Society as an independent and ongoing concern could well be the strongest option, and in the interests of its members and depositors."

Lib Dem Dunfermline MP Willie Rennie said: "Forcing the break-up of the Dunfermline Building Society would be a betrayal of its thousands of savers and borrowers over 130 years."

Other mutual societies could still step in to keep the Dunfermline afloat, Rennie insisted. "I ask the Government at this late stage to defend Scotland's largest mutual. If ministers refuse, this could put hundreds of jobs at risk."

There was no comment from the society last night. Senior staff were understood to have been taken by surprise by the sudden announcement.

The news of the Dumfermline's effective collapse comes six months after its troubles were first unveiled. In September, it announced it was to cut a fifth of its workforce in the wake of falling mortgage sales. In December it said it expected this year to be "difficult".

The Dunfermline was one of the last lenders to pull out of the 100%-plus loans market, while it also had a considerable exposure to buy-to-let loans and lending to commercial property borrowers. While on a far smaller scale to HBOS and RBS, the 130-year-old mutual is still one of the country's main financial brands.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 March 2009 10:28 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Recession
 
1

RufusT-Firefly,

28/03/2009 23:21:09
Just goes to Show, Scotland's economy is bankrupt.

This is the final nail in the independence coffin.

Thanks to the union, Scotland's economy has not ended up like Zimbabwe's.
2

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 28/03/2009 23:42:47
I have been trying to get the latest version for 15-minutes, refreshing the page. Just got it now, and what do I find??

WUFUS T. MCFLY has posted a comment 25 minutes before when the site was unavailable to the public.

WUFUS YOUR A CON
3

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 28/03/2009 23:47:50
As I told you before. Scottish institutions are allowed to fail and be sold off or merged and disappear.

Scottish institutions are not given bail-outs. It appears this Labour government wants to strip Scotland naked before it gets independence.

The way Zimbabwe reached 230+ Million percent inflation was that they ran out of money and so they started Quantitative Easing.
4

Jimmy Twoshoes,

28/03/2009 23:59:48
Dufus, by your logic the collapse of the Barnsley Building Society was proof that England's economy was bankrupt (and economy cannot be bankrupt by the way - go read some books before spouting p*sh).

Now get back to emptying the bins and cleaning the windows.
5

,

28/03/2009 23:59:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:02:01
3 For Scotlands Future,Vote For The SNP 28/03/2009 23:47:50
The way Zimbabwe reached 230+ Million percent inflation was that they ran out of money and so they started Quantitative Easing.
======================================================

Whats wrong with Quantitative easing?

If its good enough for the Federal Reserve who are you to complain?
7

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:03:49
4 Jimmy Twoshoes,28/03/2009 23:59:48
Now get back to emptying the bins and cleaning the windows.
===================================================

I will do when Earth hour is over.

It's too dark at the moment.
8

Jimmy Twoshoes,

29/03/2009 00:10:39
Earth hour that started at 8:30? You can switch your lights back on again.

An on the subject of earth hour - a totally useless and pointless non-event. People can tick their little box and jump back into their 4x4 and think they've done their bit. Twaddle.

Anyway Dufus, feel free to answer my query on your logic.
9

redcliffe62,

29/03/2009 00:14:27
there will be support as many dbs investors are voters in brown's constituency. and the man has no morals when spending other people's money as we know.
the bak of england cannot pay future debt, and noone wishes to buy it as a commodity.
imf here we come!, although had brown been honest and proactive he would have got support 4 months ago as the british pound now resembles toilet paper under his tenure.
10

redcliffe62,

29/03/2009 00:15:19
very wet, very soggy and very $hitty toilet paper at that.
11

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:22:43
8 Jimmy Twoshoes,29/03/2009 00:10:39
Anyway Dufus, feel free to answer my query on your logic.
==================================================

Yes indeed.

If the DBS failed in isolation then you would have a point.

But that is not the case is it?
12

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:23:35
9 redcliffe62,29/03/2009 00:14:27
the british pound now resembles toilet paper under his tenure.
=====================================================

Really?

In what way?
13

Jimmy Twoshoes,

29/03/2009 00:27:30
Yes indeed.

If the DBS failed in isolation then you would have a point.

But that is not the case is it?

You've just flipped 180 and are not agreeing with the argument against your initial point. Do you actually understand anything you write about?

You initially said that a (single) scottish society going bust proves "Scotland's economy is bankrupt". Yet multiple English societies suffering the same fate does not merit the same conclusion? The very point I am making is that these are not isolated incidents.
14

Jimmy Twoshoes,

29/03/2009 00:28:19
the above should read "and are now agreeing with..."
15

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 00:30:29


Just goes to Show, England's economy is bankrupt. (Dufus)

You finally caught on, Dufus.

The UK Treasury is debating how much to apply for from the IMF for a bail-out.

What a turn up for the books- which reminds me: Did the Glenrothes Voting Register every turn up?


16

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 00:32:24
Whats wrong with Quantitative easing? (Dufus)

Is that you picking up the soap in the shower ... again?

You were warned NOT to do it.

17

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 00:37:32
Rufus dear - look up ''The Weimar Republic'' that should give you a clue that there may be a slight problem with quantitative easement.
18

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:39:04
Speedy Gonzales Angeles has finally found Sunday's newspaper.

Mind you it is nearly Monday
19

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 00:40:10

Incidentally, Dufus, a headline you might have missed:

All the G20 leaders have REJECTED Brown's call for more spending.

What has Empire Loyalism to say about that, and about IMF executives being ruthless in deals made when handing bail-outs to erring countries they think need kicking for their gross ineptness in financial matters?

(Scotland isn't a country - is it?)

I'll go meet with friends while you flick the pages of "Orange Peel United" looking for answers.


20

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:40:15
18 Observer,,Glasgow 29/03/2009 00:37:32
Rufus dear - look up ''The Weimar Republic'' that should give you a clue that there may be a slight problem with quantitative easement.
======================================

Do not need to look it up.

But it is a good point you make.

What happened then will always happen now and in the future.
21

Scotfree,

Erskine 29/03/2009 00:40:36
It comes as no great surprise that the criminal labour regime that has ruined Britain and decimated Scotland will stab Scotland in the back at every opportunity, despite its oil wealth being the sole pillar that is holding up the ruined British economy, holding back the IMF from stepping in to end the labour-Brown madness.
But this is in Browns own back yard. Now financial duplicity matches electoral duplicity with dutiful silence from the un-elected fraud MP and the un-elected fraudster Prime Minister.
22

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:41:21
20 Los Angeles,29/03/2009 00:40:10
I'll go meet with friends while you flick the pages of "Orange Peel United" looking for answers.
==================================================

Please say 'hello' to all your imaginary friends from me.
23

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 00:42:23
21 Okaydoke just post examples where printing money has sorted things out. Take your time.
24

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:42:38
I wonder what Sandi Thom is having for Sunday Breakfast.

No doubt it will be truffles caviar and Champagne again.
25

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 00:44:40
24 Observer,,Glasgow 29/03/2009 00:42:23
21 Okaydoke just post examples where printing money has sorted things out. Take your time.
===================================================

No examples needed.

The Federal Reserve should really have sought your advice before going ahead with it though, eh?

They are all economic illiterates compared to Observer.
26

,

29/03/2009 00:48:53
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27

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 00:49:47

Please say 'hello' to all your imaginary friends from me. (Dufus)

England's Treasury is bankrupt - Darling admits there's no more money. He gave it all to the banks. Oh dear.

Say hello to your delusionary garbage, Dufus.

(Aren't Blackberries wonderful?)

28

,

29/03/2009 00:49:54
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29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 00:50:21


Warned some 10days ago!

Maybe something could have been done in 10day's?

Even a gesture of concern!

But as usual NOTHING!!

'As one Sleeps,...As one Sleeps'!

'HUH',..... Mr Salmond?


30

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 00:53:04
Union is Better

Dufus - No one will notice the dissonance between:
"Just goes to Show, Scotland's economy is bankrupt."
and
"Thanks to the union, Scotland's economy has not ended up bankrupt"

LoL. Brilliant. Many thanks, UiB.

I got that one, in one. I'll dine out on it this hour.

Still chuckling.


31

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 00:54:04
Please say 'hello' to all your imaginary friends from me. (Dufus)

Your bed still empty, Dufus?

You ever wondered why?


32

,

29/03/2009 00:55:12
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33

,

29/03/2009 02:03:15
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34

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 02:04:51


"The Futures Bright, The Futures ??????"

But NOT "Bright" for Scotland!

Makes one wonder,..What Flags will be Flying from Edinburgh Castle in the "Future"?

Certainly it will not be the Scottish Flags!

Maybe 'bin ladens' or them Arabs, that wanted to purchase Princess Street in Edinburgh?


35

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 02:09:16


http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Who-owns-Princes--Street.3849805.jp


36

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 02:11:06


http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Princes-ransom-as-oilrich-Arabs.3809951.jp

37

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 02:12:30


Makes one ask,....'What Scotland'?


38

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 02:13:20


And then there is the Question of Mr Trump?

39

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 02:14:29
Why is there no comment from the SNP in the "Calman Snub" article? They should have the right to reply to this kind of hogwash. (Jwil)

I agree, but ...

Calman's pitiful self-elected Commission is all but dead, overtaken by events, the UK's bank balance turned a deep red.

The collapse of western economies, and the UK's perilous finances, have put paid to any proposals he might have had for giving Scotland more fire lighters but taking back Devolution.

It's not that a portion of his ideas are incapable of reality, it's that nobody will care a fig for what he has to say.

As for Calman's gratuitous dig at Salmond not attending his pretendy committee, does Calman inhabit this universe?

To be associated with its capacity to ignite conflict during a time of profound insecurity is the last thing any politician will want to do, particularly an SNP MSP.

So, where lies the political path for Scotland now?

England will revert to protectionism, IS doing it now, and the people of Scotland, seeing their country battered by the sheer indeptitude they did not create, will seek retribution by demanding separation as the solution to a safer future.

The world has altered irrevocably.

Asian countries confident they can take the initiate, will want some input into the decisions of the IMF, and won't take kindly to Brown telling them to do this, or do that. The USA under Obama has followed the right pattern, pumped massive amounts into creating real jobs and income from them.

Brown gave all the UK's money to corrupt bankers. And his days are numbered too.

The Saltire can stay where it is, flying high. The people of Scotland have a new challenge to face, a world with a bankrupt neighbour. Who would have thought it?

LA







40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 02:15:22

In hinsight we should of seen this all coming 3years ago!,,

,,As one Sleeps,,,As one Sleeps!,

'HUH',.....Mr Salmond?

41

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 02:18:19

Bankruptcy is just a state of mind and a political weapon. (UiB)

To some extent.

If you have money now and refuse to part with it you are wise.

If you have debts now and no money to pay them you are bankrupt.

I'd like to think the population shake off uncertainty and disquiet, rise up against its inept leaders, and dictate a new set of ethics ...



42

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 02:18:29

Los Angeles ~43,

"Why is there no comment from the SNP"

SLEEPING!, is the Answer!, A Nuclear Bomb could go off, for all they care!



43

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 02:19:45
Rufus dear I say again just post an example where quantitative easement has worked. Do I think I know better than the US Gvt ? Well considering everything, the answer is yes.
44

Willie Macleod,

Wick 29/03/2009 02:27:32
"Stands Scotland where it did" Alas poor country "Almost afraid to know itself it cannot"
45

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 02:29:12
It's debasement of the currency Rufus - try and understand what that means. It means those of us who have saved, who are not up to our eyeballs in debt, are about to be hit - right between the eyes.
46

,

29/03/2009 03:35:06
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47

Statsman,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 05:14:03
1 Doofus T-Firefly

An independent government might not be looking to punt the building society to the highest bidder. Is that in Scotland's interest?

I am lukewarm on the SNP but ramblings from unionist party apparachiks like you are no help whatsoever. They are actually quite insulting to Scottish people.

This is bad debt created by US institutions that the US legal system isn't touching. In fact, the crooks, such as those at AIG that falsely rated this kind of debt, get bailouts and bonuses.

I fail to see why this is something to revel in.
48

SeriouslyAmused,

Alexandria 29/03/2009 05:21:48
Rufus, even a rudimentary understanding of economics will tell you the wheels are coming off the Anglo-American style of managing their economies - the Federal Reserve and the BoE can 'print' as much money as they like, but their economies are shot to hell, there is no substance there anymore and nations, such as China, which buy up bonds to finance this airy-fairy nonsense are now seeing the real truth. Britain and the US have gambled their past industrial wealth on a casino future - well, the house has lost for once (and all) - and there is not enough gold in the vaults to back it up either.

Expect to see some quite shattering redefining of 'the global powerhouses' during and shortly after the G20. You might be in for a very big shock.
49

Sonare,

29/03/2009 05:46:17
What a shame....we lose an hour and a beloved Building Society at the same time...bonjour BS....how did it all come to this? Where does the buck stop now.....?
50

Name,

Location 29/03/2009 06:00:33
I used to have an account with these muppets. And although I feel bad for the staff their customer service (from my experience) left a lot to be desired from.

Hopefully whoever takesover can sort them out.

Now I'll let you children get back to your little will.y waving contest about unionism vs nationalism.
51

Statsman,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 06:02:40
49 Observer

Best buy previous metals and sit tight. A recession/depression with hyperinflation is an insane proposition.

Fiat currency is a joke. It isn't backed by anything. It makes us slaves to inflation while bankers sit tight and rake in the profits.

Can anyone explain inflation? It makes no sense.
52

Statsman,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 07:06:42
LOL I mean precious metals. What a difference two keys next to each other on a keyboard make.
53

Pilrig,

Livingston 29/03/2009 07:30:35
1 rufus - with the present crowd in charge the UK's economy is going to end up like Zimbabwe's.
54

Walter Ego,

Durness 29/03/2009 07:30:42
Highly significant that Salmond isn't blaming Westminster about this - he knows that his intervention was less than helpful.
55

,

29/03/2009 07:34:16
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56

Forward not Back,

29/03/2009 07:39:11
Dunfermline deserves no special treatment. It went to the casino, bet on black and it came up red. It's a disaster for employment in the town but then since half the population travels to Edinburgh to work anyway it will suffer anyway.
57

Marian,

29/03/2009 07:48:18
Gordon Brown claims that only the UK could have saved RBS and HBOS from bankrupcy as it would have been beyond the means of an independent Scotland to do so.

What Gordon Brown doesn't say of course, is that the bankrupcy of RBS and HBOS has only occurred because in the past 11 years he has gambled Las Vegas style with the UK economy and lost - big time.

Part of his gamble was to do away with any vestige of statutory financial regulation, in the mistaken belief that the market would regulate itself.

As a consequence the UK under Gordon Brown is in the worst economic condition by far of any G7 country. Consequently Scotland is in a far worse economic condition than neighbouring countries which are comparable to Scotland such as Norway, Ireland, Denmark, etc.

As part of his master plan to create so-called “equality” Gordon Brown bullied the UK financial institutions into lending money to people who clearly couldn't afford to pay the loans back if and when the boom time in property prices ended.

Banks hired guys who had no previous banking experience who had the bright idea of running the banks into the ground by concentrating the business on selling Gordon Brown's toxic loans.

This economically incompetent New Labour led UK government with its media stooges, together with the failed bank management who are guilty of bringing the banks to their knees,

New Labour have lied to us, not once, but repeatedly for more than a decade. And now all the lies are being exposed. The myth of Brown's economic "genius" is coming tumbling down and the whole shoddy edifice of debt-ridden idiocy is displayed for all of us to see.

Gordon Brown claims that the present economic crisis is all the fault of a big boy who did it and ran away, but we all know now that the big boy who did it is still sitting for the time being in 10 Downing Street.
58

robertofayelo,

Ayelo de Rugat 29/03/2009 08:08:01
Whilst reviewing 12 newspapers from different countries and listening to the 'experts' on the BBC discussing the present UK -repeat UK- economic crisis I noticed a clue in an old crossword.
This led to an old book-called the Bible and then to-" Be not made a begger by banqueting upon borrowing "
Seems to summarise the situation.
59

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 29/03/2009 08:08:10
Poor wee Wufus. He miust be quite exhausted. I bet that's the most you've talked to people all week.
60

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 29/03/2009 08:17:05
You notice that Wufus T. Mc Flt never denies he has some sort of private access to post comments before the website is publicly available. The website became available about 23:45 last night. I was refreshing the page every few minutes to see when it became available. I got on about 23:46 only to find a post by Wufus at 23:21 on this article.

It's rather pathetic when the Scotsman uses something like Wufus to try and stir up comments.

Folks Wufus is not real. He is an ID being used by the Scotsman to try and get people to post and and argue with him. They seem to have been successful on this article.
61

,

29/03/2009 08:23:33
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62

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 29/03/2009 08:35:06
We should not be too critical of John Swinney. He has tried his best in very difficult circumstances.
63

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 29/03/2009 08:36:35
Dunfermline's demise has been caused by spivs and speculators. Discuss.
64

Kingston,

Fife 29/03/2009 08:37:49
It is rather concerning that the same newspaper that hyped the property markets and promoted mass debt is now reporting the collapse of Scotland's biggest building society!





65

,

29/03/2009 08:49:46
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66

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 29/03/2009 09:03:01
No written assurance on future of Scotland team

FIFA demands action on Team GB

By Campbell Gunn and Ron Scott of the Sunday Post

SCOTLAND has been told it must agree to an all-British football team for the London Olympics within two months.

FIFA, football’s world governing body, has demanded the Scottish Football Association reach an agreement with the other home nations by May 31.

The order came in a stark letter that makes it clear FIFA wants to see a British side at the 2012 Games.

It also emerged last night the UK Government may have NO written assurances from FIFA that a Team GB wouldn’t threaten the future of the Scotland national team — despite claims to the contrary.

United

The SFA and SNP have united in condemnation of what they see as Gordon Brown’s insistence on a Home Nations merger for the Olympics.

SFA president George Peat said, “We have a Scottish prime minister yet he is behind this.

“We are all very disappointed.

“The PM has even phoned our chief executive Gordon Smith directly twice recently.”

Mr Peat continued, “This is all about politics. If we are not careful there will not be a Scotland international team.”

SNP sport spokesman Pete Wishart said, “The creation of a GB side would endanger Scotland’s long-term ability to compete in international football. The UK Government must ditch its crazy proposals.

Opposed

“We must allow no precedent that could be used against us in the future. No reason or argument given by those who seek to change the status quo has addressed that.

“The SFA is opposed, the Tartan Army is opposed and the majority of football fans are all against Gordon Brown’s team merger plans.”

FIFA’s strongly worded letter to the SFA states, “The FIFA executive committee is of the opinion this situation can only be solved by an agreement of all four British associations.

“Hence it is now up to you to find a common solution and submit this solution to the FIFA executive committee fo
67

,

29/03/2009 09:08:22
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68

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 09:15:04
Democratic Scot - it is Gordon Brown's degree in history that utterly condemns him. He didn't learn from it - this has all happened before. You are quite right - the Govt led decision to move from manufacturing industry (which Thatcher was quite happy to decimate to destroy the unions in her mentalist eyes) to put all our eggs in the basket of financialism is what has led us to be so severely exposed to this depression.
69

,

29/03/2009 09:16:35
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70

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 09:18:51
79 If Rules is a masochist (which he appears to be) then he will enjoy being lashed by the whip. Best just ignore him.
71

Nikostratos,,

29/03/2009 09:19:07
I see the proper politicians took the right decision for the Scottish peoples over the Dunfermline Building Society. By brushing the snp representative Alex Salmond aside...

After all they wish to find a solution Alex wishes to find an Argument(And the devil take the Scottish peoples as ever)
72

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 09:22:08
81 Very good Nikostratos Alex Salmond intervenes to ensure that the social housing projects that the DBS funded were guaranteed and you regard that as devilish. You are a bit of a diddy at times.
73

,

29/03/2009 09:23:24
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74

Phil C,

29/03/2009 09:23:58
There is no, repeat no, evidence that Scotland would have fared worse as an independent country with control of it's own income. In contrast there is clear evidence that the UK is run by incompetent and dishonest psychos.

To state anything else, as the onionists are doing, is pure babble! Ignore them. They still won't go away but the solutions are simpler if you ignore them and their stupid views!
75

TWC,

29/03/2009 09:26:09
For once I am supporting the Nats on this. The dunfermline BS can be saved with a deal by the other BS and the Scottish Government but it has to be approved by Westminster. However the debt isn't big enough to force the westminster Government to take action so they are ensuring it goes to the wall. It looks like more vindictiveness to me.
76

,

29/03/2009 09:36:09
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77

Linoleum Blownapart,

29/03/2009 09:43:45
For Scotland's Future

Anybody can post early on these boards. The "refresh" button is not the way to go about it.
78

TWC,

Ex Labour 29/03/2009 09:43:58
#86
From the herald what will we do?
We'll do whatever is necessary,
What is necessary? whatever we need to do.
Unless you live in Scotland. How does he get away with it?

He even said in Brazil we need to arrange more games between Brazil and England.

Please keep in mind that I can't stand Brown he is dangerous.
79

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 29/03/2009 09:45:21
#77: SMS753
Ah, so that's how he's doing it. My thanks for letting me know.

BTW, knock yourself out at 10:30 tonight. It seems to be a unionist thing to do. You and Wufus can talk to each other in peace.

Thanks again.
80

,

29/03/2009 09:47:12
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81

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 29/03/2009 09:50:12
#87
Pity you can't get round the moderator on HeraldTalk.
82

Nikostratos,,

29/03/2009 09:50:26
#84

Just one small detail is missing in your (Ignore them) argument.The Unionist hold all the real power within the U.K so its a teeny bit difficult to ignore them.

And its not very inspirational is it Churchill's speech would of sounded silly.saying we will 'Ignore them on the beaches etc'.
83

,

29/03/2009 09:52:49
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84

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 09:52:54
92 You are comparing unionists to Nazis Nikostratos ? That's a bit extreme if you don't mind me saying. Unionists are people too.
85

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 09:58:27
83 Democratic Scot
"his scorched earth policy in the land of his birth is obvious."

Hardly. You appear to ignore the fact that it was the Dunfermline Building Society that got itself into trouble and went bust. As the article says it is going the same way as the Bradford and Bingley when it went bust.

The govt has already spent £20bn+ bailing out RBS to save it. How does spending such huge amounts constitute a "scorched earth" policy. Your assertion defies reason and logic.
86

Calum Crubag,

29/03/2009 10:03:01
BOS - no help from London

Dunfermline - no help from London

English-based banks - bought out by 'British' taxpayers. Time for independence. A fraction of London Labour's war budget would solve a lot of problems.
87

,

29/03/2009 10:08:20
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88

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 10:12:24
95 The Govt (uniquely) did not understand the extent of the banking disaster. And so they initially used it to play politics - to force the merger (futile) between LLoyds and HBOS.

It doesn't actually matter what the title of the various banks are, they are all screwed. What a legacy Labour have left us.
89

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 10:13:03
It is somewhat curious to note that the Treasury have not actually spoken the Dunfermline BS since last October.


It will be interesting to hear what Jim Faulds has to say on the Politics Show on BBC 2 at 12.30 later today.
90

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 10:18:42
28 Union is ­Better,29/03/2009 00:48:53
"Thanks to the union, Scotland's economy has not ended up bankrupt"
=======================================================

So, 'Union is Better' is attributing quotes to me that I never made.

Even funnier, Lost Angeles went into orgasmic raptures over it.

Just sums the Nazt up for what they are.

In this case, one a liar and one a fool.
91

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 10:19:15
96 Calum Crubag
To be frank, your comments are utter nonsense. Of the £37bn the govt spent in acquiring equity in banks £21bn wnt on RBS, £11bn on HBOS and only £6bn on Lloyds. Northern Rock was acquired for nothing when it went bust and the article says that Bradford and Bingley was acquired by Santander.

All you need is elementary arithmetic to realise that the majority of the bail out money has gone to Scottish based banks.

Why do people such as yourself make these nationalist tirades in complete contradiction of the facts.
92

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 10:20:03
99 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 29/03/2009 10:13:03
It will be interesting to hear what Jim Faulds has to say on the Politics Show on BBC 2 at 12.30 later today.
======================================================

Yes Bully Boy, you watch it and report back to us later.

The rest of us will be out enjoying the sunshine.
93

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 10:25:36
96 Calum Crubag
PS - your statement that Dunfermline Building Society is receiving no help from London is also false.

As a mutual it is owned by its members (savers and borrowers). Now that it has gone bust then those members are liable for the losses - i.e. savers could lose some or all of their savings.

By taking on the "toxic" loan part of the Dunfermline's operations the govt is protecting the savings of the members to ensure that they do not lose them.

Please learn something about these matters before you launch into your tirades.
94

AJM,

29/03/2009 10:30:43
How did Brown and his Labour mates instruct idiots in DBS to be so utterly useless in controlling their IT infrastructure that it has brought the society to its knees.

What role did Brown play in twisting the arm of senior DBS management in a mutual society to go and buy mortgage securities from the USA.

The Nats on here blame the weather to loosing a pair of socks on Brown.

Now you Nats please remind me what AS said about the health of financial instituitions in Scotland last week. Of course AS is best placed to sort it out, the man who cannot even figure out how his own SFT, how can you trust a man that cannot get his own finance schemes to have a structure let alone work. Now we would be in a mess if he was allowed to run amoke with our money.
95

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 10:30:57
35 Cynicus in Exile,29/03/2009 00:57:09
"Whats wrong with Quantitative easing?
But it's not good enough for China, Russia and Germany.
===================================================

Ah Cynicus, great post as always.

How would Germany undertake Quantitative Easing?

The last time I was there, I seemed to remember the local currency being the Euro.

It will no doubt surprise you to learn that Germany is not the only country to use this currency.

Maybe they could print some extra Deutschmarks right enough.


96

,

29/03/2009 10:35:32
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97

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 10:38:18
2 For Scotlands Future,Vote For The SNP 28/03/2009 23:42:47
I have been trying to get the latest version for 15-minutes, refreshing the page. Just got it now, and what do I find??
WUFUS T. MCFLY has posted a comment 25 minutes before when the site was unavailable to the public.
WUFUS YOUR A CON
================================================

How is the page refreshing coming along?

I suppose its a bit like a hamster running around a wheel in a cage.

Keeps you busy with no real achievement.
98

The Strategist,

29/03/2009 10:38:50
Gordon and Ally will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of being able to damage Scotland's potential. The modest amount it will cost to take on the DBS's toxic assets will be well worth the price.

Now in effective control of both RBS and Lloyds/HBOS the UK Govt has an inordinate amount of influence over the activities of these banks. They are in effect State owned machines under full political control.

Given not just the economic incompetence of the Westminster Govt but their willingness to pull any political lever they can to stay in power I simply don't trust them to do the right thing.

The answer is of course to start another bank/building society.
99

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 10:41:55
Anyone wanting a vichy consultation could do worse than look here.

http://www.vichyconsult.co.uk/
100

,

29/03/2009 10:42:02
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101

weh,

29/03/2009 10:43:00
Mr Beans scorched earth policy towards the beloved land of his birth continues apace!

When WILL you Fifers EVER see the light??

I despair!
102

Skatedad,

Home 29/03/2009 10:46:25
WE ARE ALL DOOMED !!!
103

,

29/03/2009 10:46:32
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104

Roy,

29/03/2009 10:46:51
"In uncertain financial times it's important you feel comfortable about who you invest your money with. We're delighted you have chosen Dunfermline Building Society and hope this is a reflection of our long-standing sensible approach to finance."

From a letter received from Dunfermline Building Society dated 13 March 2009.
105

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 10:48:03
How is the page refreshing? (Dufus)

How's the job hunting coming along?

Mind you, compulsively glued to websites in a forlorn effort to "kill off the SNP" won't leave time to open as much as a newspaper to find one. I guess that suits the work shy like you. Welfare cheques, cigarette stubs, and an empty bed, terrific existence.

Why don't you sell more advertising space on your forehead - tattoo fashion?

How's your "quantative easing" doing? I'm sure the proctocologist will have a cure for it.

I'm looking forward to reading your next rat dropping, Dufus, like the one on this thread:

"Scotland is bankrupt" and "The UK treasurery has save Scotland from bankruptcy." Whoops. Hilarious.

The half-eaten tin of beans is to your left. Enjoy your Sunday meal.



106

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 10:49:02
109 The Strategist
As the DBS is a mutual the govt cannot take control of it. A mutual, by definition, must be owned by its members. That is why the option is for it to merge with another mutual. However no other mutual will merge with it because of the toxic loans. That is why the govt is taking over the toxic loans so that the remaining part of the business can merge with another mutual.

This is where the situation is different from the other banks - a fact that many do not seem to appreciate. The govt could take control of RBS by buying the majority of its shares as it has done. That is not an option for a mutual.

107

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 10:51:00
112 weh
Please read post 95
108

Sumlogic,

London Weighting 29/03/2009 10:53:48
Once again we can see that its one rule for one institution and different rules when it comes to anything that’s Scottish.

Don’t tell me the decision and Scrap HBOS and railroad it into a merger with Lloyds and now the decision to break up and destroy another Scottish Institution has nothing to do with the Independence threat to London’s control over Scotland and its finances, even if only for psychological reasons and bullets to fire during any prospect of an Independence referendum.

I tell you the London conspiracy and den of thieves will stop at nothing to keep Scotland in its perceived place as an energy rich, scenic holiday location for the Rich fat cat Southern 'UK' control junkies!

And at a time when Soros believes and states that the UK will have to go cap in hand (again) to the IMF because its effectively bankrupt (in the 70s they had our oil to prop the UK up) we have the ever-so-pathetic comment from rtf "Just goes to Show, Scotland's economy is bankrupt."

Wake up folks, this IS HAPPENING, Scotland is sinking in a London created and driven Mire! Time to bail out and vote for Independence!

Its only going to GET WORSE as the UK debts start to raise taxes and eat into services…yes that means the ones you use too…REALLY!
109

,

29/03/2009 10:53:48
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110

RufusT-Firefly,

29/03/2009 10:54:23
116 Los Angeles,29/03/2009 10:48:03
"Scotland is bankrupt" and "The UK treasurery has save Scotland from bankruptcy." Whoops. Hilarious.
==================================================

Oh Dear, Lost Angeles is making up quotes and attributing them to me as well now.

But he is so amateurish at it that his poor spelling has given his game away.

Only one person on here thinks that the Treasury is the "treasurery".

HAHAHAHAHAHA

LOST ANGELES YOU ARE A BUFFOON.
111

,

29/03/2009 10:57:20
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112

Sumlogic,

Financial Rules 29/03/2009 10:58:34
Who has been at the helm of the financial rules and the budget of the UK for the past decade that has helped create this situation?

Gordon Brown.... yes the man that pushed through the so-called merger of Lloyds with HBOs, the man at the head of a party that’s detests SNP and their aims and I believe will do all and risk all to scupper SNP and Scotland’s future.

In the eyes of Brown and his cohorts there is no Scotland, there is a Scottish region of the London centred so-called UK!
113

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 10:59:35
120 Jwil
I did not see the interview but the details I mentioned are correct. The only way a govt can take control of a mutual is to demutualise it so that it, instead of the members, own it. There is no mystery in that - it is common knowledge.
114

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

29/03/2009 11:01:29
For years we were told by the unionists that if it wasn't for the union we wouldn't have all our banks and building societys. Now it turns out that the British government couldn't wait to denude Scotland of these institutions. Yet another lie told by the unionists.
We don't have the banks, we don't need the union anymore.
115

Ugly George,

29/03/2009 11:03:33
119 sumlogic
A building society in Dunfermline makes some bad decisions and goes bust. Somehow, according to you, this is a London conspiracy.

How did this come about? Did MI5 infiltrate the board of the Dunferline Building Society?
116

Sumlogic,

Ha ha 29/03/2009 11:11:54
126- (well fitting handle).

Yes bring in the security services in an illogical attempt to discredit the proposition...clever? I fear not!

Yes these institutions made all the wrong decisions, and yet prior to Browns tenure, their decisions seemed to be valid, what changed, could it be the rules that govern those decisions and the applications of the now obviously erroneous business models, the very ones that you point to?

When will people realise that Labore and their management of the UK economy and the rules regarding the FSA etc are at the VERY HEART of what’s going on at the moment...even in a global economy!

The decision not to step in, in some creative way and instead allow it to go to the wall, something that did not have to happen, is, I believe in every way political and at the heart of my statement!
117

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 11:12:15
Oh Dear, Lost Angeles (Dufus)

Hi Dufus you loner

How's Psycho Sam these days?

I see you told eveybody the Harris Tweed industry was bailed out by the UK Treasury.

Another Big Fib.

The Scottish Government gave it some money, not to save it, but to help it expand into new markets.

By the way, if all you can jeer at are my typo errors you're in deep trouble.

Okay, let's have more of your rat droppings you nonentity. (The emphasis is on "tity")

You're a tragic loser - no job, no skills, no bloody hope.



118

Linoleum Blownapart,

29/03/2009 11:15:37
Could someone direct me to the article appearing in most of the real newspapers - the one saying,

"Jacqui Smith revealed she is “mortified and furious” after the cost of two adult films watched by her husband were paid for out of the Parliamentary expenses budget."
119

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 11:15:41
125 Newton
"Now it turns out that the British government couldn't wait to denude Scotland of these institutions"

If that is the case why did the govt spend £21bn in equity on RBS and set aside vastly more in loan guarantees to bail out RBS.
120

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 11:23:17
127 Sumlogic
"When will people realise that Labore and their management of the UK economy and the rules regarding the FSA etc are at the VERY HEART of what’s going on at the moment"

Perhaps so but please tell me of any political figure in Scotland who complained about bank regulation before the current crises. Much of this comment is merely being wise after the event.

"The decision not to step in, in some creative way and instead allow it to go to the wall"

But the govt has stepped in. It has taken over the toxic part of DBS loans thus leaving a credible business which can merge with another society thus preserving its activities and ensuring that the members do not lose savings. As I mentioned in other posts, a mutual must be owned by members so the govt cannot take it over.
121

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 11:25:21
Could someone direct me to the article appearing in most of the real newspapers - the one saying, "Jacqui Smith revealed she is “mortified and furious” after the cost of two adult films watched by her husband were paid for out of the Parliamentary expenses budget." (Lino)

Now all over the television news.

Perhaps her mum watched the videos, in error. I'm sure Jacqui has a plausable excuse.
122

Sumlogic,

Always a way 29/03/2009 11:34:24
131,Ugly George

Lets be clear here, I do not attest that the UK (Sleaze, corrupt) Westminster government planned as their ‘main aim’ to Scupper Scotland at 'every step' in the (mis) handling of these Bank mergers etc, however I absolutely believe that somewhere in the reckoning there is the idea that if they can achieve that aim as a secondary effect and provide ammunition for some future anti independence campaign then they will, and indeed have followed that thought process.

The Government stepped in on their terms, not necessarily on terms best from Scotland and its people, although that’s nothing unusual I suppose!

Westminster used to claim that Scotland would be bust if we voted for Independence, I think it was something like “Union or Bust” as a motto, well now they have managed to do both, now that is creative, I give you that!
123

Boab,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 11:35:20
#28/#34 Union: nicely put.

I wonder what happened to AM2? Did he finally burn out? His whole angle was involved bankruptcy for Scotland under independence. £5K of debt per household - eek!
124

Sumlogic,

LABORES MESS 29/03/2009 11:43:32
131, Labour was warned year on year by industry experts that their massive debt fuelled bubble would burst with horrendous consequences and yet they carried on regardless and continued to do so with silly ideas like the VAT cut!

Yes maybe its easy to say we are all ‘wise after the event’, however trying to pin the blame on other parties for the MESS that Gordon and his corrupt cohorts managed is a little disingenuous to be sure…They were the ones at the helm, it was Gordon’s FSA rules and changes to those rules that helped created the situation that the TAXPAYER now faces, literally bailing out the banks with money not yet earned, while the rich have creamed off more into private offshore accounts!

Scotland could not do worse on its own, I am sure!
125

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 11:45:32
I absolutely believe that somewhere in the reckoning there is the idea they can achieve that aim as a secondary effect (Sumlogic)

I think much of the public feel that way too, and I include our English friends. They wonder why a Scottish Prime Minister should not try to protect Scottish institutions and have them remain in scotland, while explaining to other voters he is doing the same for English institutions.

No wonder patriotic Scots hate him so much. Paradoxically he's an avowed Unionist yet detested by Unionists.
126

JOHNW,

dunfermline 29/03/2009 11:47:50
TWC,29/03/2009 09:26:09
For once I am supporting the Nats on this. The dunfermline BS can be saved with a deal by the other BS and the Scottish Government but it has to be approved by Westminster. However the debt isn't big enough to force the westminster Government to take action so they are ensuring it goes to the wall. It looks like more vindictiveness to me.

Right in one--since Brown lost Dunfermline to the Lib Dems it has been toys out of pram re Dunfermline but there were too many DBS savers in his own constituancy so he had to protect savers but get the BS headquarters out of Dunfermline. Interesting he would not allow the society to be bailed out Is it true as speculated that Westminster bailed out the PFI company building the new Kirkcaldy hospital(£150m) when it could not raise the funds in the market?---but of course that in in his patch. The people of Kirkcaldy should think hard on the kind of guy they are imposing on Scotland and the UK
127

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 11:51:51


Brown: The people of Kirkcaldy should think hard on the kind of guy they are imposing on Scotland and the UK. (John)

Three cheers if they do.


128

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 11:53:01
133 Sumlogic
In the mutual interests of clarity let me say that I am not a fan of the present govt - far from it. However what I find disturbing is the tendency of some people to view anything as some ant-Scottish conspiracy.

Who was it said that when it comes to deciding if something is a conspiracy or a c*ck up it is probably a c*ck up 99% of the time. That may well be an accurate description of the activities of the current govt.

Try to think how somebody from another country would view all of this. They would see that of the £37bn that went into bailing out UK banks with equity, £31bn went into banks based in Scotland. More than half of the total (£21bn) went on bailing out RBS so that it could survive as a big bank based in Edinburgh.

Now they will see that the only mutual which (so far) has gone bust is also based in Scotland and the govt has to help this out by taking over the toxic loans it has.

Then they will see that some people in Scotland are complaining that this is all a conspiracy to deprive Scotland of its financial institutions - look at some of the posts on this thread. I am sure you will appreciate that people from another country would probably question the mental stability of those who are complaining.
129

brownlie,

29/03/2009 11:53:47
1 Rufus T

If Scotland's economy is bankrupt, as you claim, and Scotland is not independent, but dependent on a Union, where does the blame for the bankrupcy lie? Is England bankrupt? Is Wales bankrupt, Is Northern island bankrupt? Is it just Scotland?

Where's Ewan Randall when we need him?
130

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 29/03/2009 11:54:47
I think the labour government just has no ideas about how to deal with the economic problems it has created.

The overall tax levels in the UK including indirect taxes are some of the highest in the world. So between the banks and the government most of peoples earnings are taken. When people dont have any more or stop spending the amount they have left - jobs disappear.

Suddenly the government and the banks cant take any more of your money - so they panic - the bank owners created a credit system that allowed them to become richer than god - and now have forced governments around the world to give them your money through bailouts - seeing as you could no longer give it to them directly.

LET THE BANKS FAIL - ITS THE ONLY WAY TO CLEAN THEM UP - DONT BUY THE TOXIC DEBT - BANKRUPCY WILL CLEAN IT UP AUTOMATICALLY AND WE WONT BE SADDLED WITH DECADES OF DEBT REPAYMENT - THE OWNERS CAN FUND THE LOSSES THROUGH THE BILLIONS THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER THE YEARS OR GO BUST THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE
131

radge dug,

29/03/2009 11:57:29
Sorry George, i reckon Labour could save DBS if they wished. Likewise HBOS. They have an agenda.

Labour is bankrupting Britain. Their obsession with wars abroad and new nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers etc is total madness. The many £billions spent on killing people should be spent on providing public services and balancing the economy. Scotland would be better on its own without this huge waste of taxpayers' money. The home sectretary's adult films are only the tip of the iceberg!
132

Marga,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 11:59:58
Fellow Fifers, who's going to arrange a demonstration in Dunferline? And another in Kirkcaldy? Can't anything be done to give local people a voice? It seems Murphy our "representative" and his masters can ride rough-shod over the expressed wishes of our elected representative, the First Minister. Is it not time to remind them that the people are the sovereign power?

It is all very well to criticise someone for breaking windows in Sr Fred's house, but we really are being given no say in a rather more serious business - the breaking up of our society as we know it by a juggernaut our of all democratic control - the Labour government.
133

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 12:01:37
138 JohnW/TWC
"The dunfermline BS can be saved with a deal by the other BS and the Scottish Government but it has to be approved by Westminster"

Did you not read the article. The govt is taking over the toxic loans of DBS thus enabling it to do a "deal with another BS"

What you are asking for is, in effect, being done. So what is the nature of the compaint?
134

Sumlogic,

Stability 29/03/2009 12:01:53
140-Ugly George

"look at some of the posts on this thread. I am sure you will appreciate that people from another country would probably question the mental stability of those who are complaining."

I think that statement would apply to all threads in all situations; that’s the nature of the human race, often unstable, whimsical and misinformed...although with the natural tendency towards bias in the human mind (clearly demonstrated by the media rags that sell themselves as News outlets, although that’s as much to do with money as anything else) probably determined by the specific socialisation affects in each instance, its not surprising!

As I say anyone who believes politicians make decisions with only one intention, honourable or otherwise, in mind must be naive at best!
135

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 12:04:31
In the mutual interests of clarity let me say that I am not a fan of the present govt - far from it. However what I find disturbing is the tendency of some people to view anything as some ant-Scottish conspiracy. (Ugly George0

There is some (not much) consolation in knowing that if independence is delayed it is the result of a worldwide recession and nothing Brown, the Labour Party, or the British Establishment tried to do, but the current predicament is a glaring example of why Scotland should be independent once more and run its own affairs in its own way.

To be thrown around like this, Brown making sure he is never around when things go bad, making peurile speeches for European unity when his Middle-England voters want out of the EU, is completely unacceptable.

Westminster is bankrupt morally, ethically, and spiritually. It has no sense of community. It cannot judge the public mood.



136

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 12:11:07
look at some of the posts on this thread. I am sure you will appreciate that people from another country would probably question the mental stability of those who are complaining. (Ugly George)

Complaining of what?

That we are not empowered to solve matters?

You have to LISTEN to what is being said and STOP rejecting it as ravings from an ideology you dislike.

We want our country back.

Scotland did NOT deregulate banks, nor did it offer tax breaks to companies if they outsourced their staff, or tax havens for the wealthy to avoid tax, or allow the Madoff's of this world to steal billions in Ponce scams.

We want to re-establish our own values.

We cannot do it when all we have is pretendy democracy.




137

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 12:13:27
"I suppose its a bit like a hamster running around a wheel in a cage. Keeps you busy with no real achievement." (Dufus)

If only Dufus had a hamster wheel he'd get some healthy exercise.
138

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

29/03/2009 12:15:32
These banks were the jewel in the crown of 'North Britain', the reason unionists constantly told us we should be grateful for the union. The question is, without them, what use the union now?
139

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 12:18:59
147 Sumlogic
"As I say anyone who believes politicians make decisions with only one intention, honourable or otherwise, in mind must be naive at best!"

I don't think that many people would dispute your comment. The thing is though, that some people tend to assume certain intentions in a rather predetermined manner.
140

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29/03/2009 12:19:35
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141

Semper vigilo,

Glenrothes 29/03/2009 12:20:20
Brown has done more damage to Scotland than Edward 1 but at least he was English. He can't save the world
but he has wrecked Scotland and no doubt England as well. He's just a deluded meglomaniac.
142

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 12:21:48
149 Los Angeles
You have misinterpreted my comment. I was referring to a paricular type of complaint.
143

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 12:29:31
You have misinterpreted my comment. I was referring to a paricular type of complaint.
(Ugly George)

And my response was not an attack on your comment.

The UK Treasury "vetoed" the Scottish Government's attempt to rescue DBS. No matter what you think of that effort, the fact that it got vetoed is repellent to Scots.

Try and reverse the situtation, that the two nations had parity of power: the Scottish Parliament overthrew an initiative by the UK Treasury to save an English institution.

The English have a long history of rioting in the streets over inequality and bank corruption, and I'm sure they'd do it if such a case was to occur.

144

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 12:30:43
149 los Angeles
"Scotland did NOT deregulate banks, nor did it offer tax breaks to companies if they outsourced their staff, or tax havens for the wealthy to avoid tax, or allow the Madoff's of this world to steal billions in Ponce scams.

We want to re-establish our own values."

Hold on. Firstly banks were not deregulated. They were under the regulation of the FSA. That might not have been effective but you cannot say they were deregulated.

Also, as I said before, who in Scotland argued for tighter regulation of the banks before the current crises - nobody as far as I can ascertain. As we all know Alex Salmond is on record as saying that he wanted "light touch" regulation and complained that there was too much regulation from the FSA. So what are our "own values" in this respect?

Was Maddoff not operating in the USA and how could an independent Scotland stop tax havens.
145

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 29/03/2009 12:35:01
So RufusT-Firefly is now comparing Scotland to Zimbabwe.

I am starting to think he is assisting the SNP. All this talking Scotland down simply annoys and makes reasonable people angry.

RufusT-Firefly is in danger of portraying unionists as not simply anti-SNP but ani-scottish.

No doubt the unionists would disown Rufus quicker than you can see union. In the meantime his ranting might actually turn more people towards the SNP.

146

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29/03/2009 12:38:50
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147

John Cameron,

St Andrews 29/03/2009 12:41:38
This sad news from the industrial graveyard of South Fife has quite blighted my favourite moment in ZANU Labour's disastrous period of office. I will always cherish the sight of El Gordo being given lectures on sound finance by Latin American ministers. The Great Delusionist's international tour to drum up support for his latest cunning plan has provoked one long scream of mirth. Soon, however, he will be able to return home to his ravaged constituency to share the fruits of his study tour of South America with other unemployed finance experts.
148

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29/03/2009 12:44:13
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149

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 12:46:12
As we all know Alex Salmond is on record as saying that he wanted "light touch" regulation and complained that there was too much regulation from the FSA. So what are our "own values" in this respect?
(Ugly george)

No, no. Like others, you are confusing Salmond with the Scottish people. On minute Unionists claim a majority don't want independence, the next that Salmond speaks for us all.

Be consistent.

He's a tough politician leading a party devoted to the interests of Scotland. We have never had such leadership. However, when he said he wanted "light regulation" that's was his view then, not one approved by Parliament.

You are assuming we all agree with his policies. The fact that he often succeeds where we think him misguided or will fail does not remove the issue that he is the voice of Scottish aspirations.

Yes, the FSA does exist but it's a bloody ineffectual supervisory body, one NOT appointed by the Scottish Government.

So please don't tell us we live in the best of all possible worlds. We don't. And the crowds and marchers amassing around the G20 summit will tell you so.

It isn't only Scotland that wants change, and radical change at that!



150

Marga,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 12:52:30
Ugly Geoge:

I feel your comments about other posters going over the top is unfair. Have you actually read the revealing Herald article? Maybe you think the manager of the DBS is also paranoid.

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2498519.0.0.php

You also seem unable to grasp the difference about reactions to this from people in Scotland. We are not uniquely paranoid. However, unlike England, we DO have our own, elected, devolved government, set up by a democratic process.

It is now being disempowered, ignored and sidelined in public, and the unelected figure of Murphy is starting to usurp its functions (see China trip for objective proof). Can you really not understand that this creates a real difference, another dimension?

And with respect, instead of taking pot-shots at fellow-Scots (I'm presuming you are Scottish) who are contributing here, why don't you at least include in your criticism of the UK government their failed and in human terms crass communications policy, which takes no account of the trauma being caused to ordinary people.
151

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 12:55:16
159 Deomcratic Scot
"That is impossible to determnie Scotland cannot decide the regulations finance is a reserved matter."

That may be true but we also have to consider other factors. If the rest of the UK and Ireland (whose banks have hit the same problems) had light regulation the pressure would have been on Scotland to follow suit. The argument would have been that, if we have to stringent regulation, our financial services industry (on which scotland is very dependent) will lose out to operations in London and Dublin.

If you consider that in conjunction with my other comments I find it difficult to accept that the regulatory structure in Scotland would heve been substantially different.
152

Linoleum Blownapart,

29/03/2009 12:57:04
tinyurl.com/cxl3cu
153

The Strategist,

29/03/2009 12:59:37
#117 Ugly George

So why exactly does the Govt believe it has the right to sell off the more lucrative bits of DBS without consulting the DBS membership nor it seems discussing it with the DBS board?
154

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 13:00:44
I find it difficult to accept that the regulatory structure in Scotland would heve been substantially different.
(Ugly george)

That is conjecture.

You are making the classic error of arguing your proposition from a base of the status quo.

You are saying, if Scotland was independent - yet still under the yolk of the UK Treasury - it would be forced to make the same decisions.

Those two assumptions are not compatible with the concept of independence.

We would not be part of a fading empire.

155

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 13:02:49
162 Los Angeles.
"Like others, you are confusing Salmond with the Scottish people. On minute Unionists claim a majority don't want independence, the next that Salmond speaks for us all.

Be consistent."

Please don't ascribe to me comments made by others. I only speak for myself.

The point I made was that no political figure in Scotland was calling for tighter regulation of financial services(except perhaps Tommy Sheridan). If you take that into account with the stated views of Alex Salmond and the point I made in post 165, it is difficult to see how a tighter regulatory regime would have been in place.
156

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 13:06:27
167 the Strategist
Quite simply because no other building society will take on the toxic parts of the business. Other societies were approached apparently but were not interested.

If a merger with another society is to come about it would have to agreed by the membership of DBS under its constitution I would imagine.
157

,

29/03/2009 13:06:48
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158

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 13:08:55
168 los Angeles
Yes, of course it is conjecture but it is conjecture based on substantial evidence. Is there substantial evidence (as opposed to hindsight or personal prefernce) which would lead to another conjecture being more accurate.
159

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 13:09:03
I'll put that better:

You are saying, if Scotland was independent - yet a mirror image of the UK Treasury - it would be forced to make the same decisions.

There is an element of the arrogant in your position - that somehow everybody would be like England come what may, because England was only an innocent bystander.

The British Treasury was a signatory to extreme deregulated capitalism.

And at that time Scotland did not even have Devolution to compose its own fiscal policies. And it still does not.

We have just tried it with the DBS and our effort got vetoed. We don't want nuclear power but the British Government is determined to force it upon us. We don't want Trident but it looks like we are going to be forced to pay for it. We didn't want to go into Iraq so we were sent. We don't want USA missile submarines .. and so on, and so forth.

Please, don't insult us by telling us our values are shared with Westminster.






160

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 13:11:04

Yes, of course it is conjecture but it is conjecture based on substantial evidence
(Ugly George)

There is an element of the arrogant in your position - that somehow everybody is like England, come what may.
(LA)


161

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 13:14:32

There is an element of the arrogant in your position, Ugly George - that somehow everybody is like England, come what may.

It is exactly that, that the Scots reject.

Isn't that right, Mr. Gandhi?

(I'm dead, LA, but your words are wasted on the English. We only learned how to play cricket in order to beat the hell out of the barstewards, which we do most regularly.)





162

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 13:21:34
171 democratic Scot
As I said before, I am not a fan of the govt. The fact is though that he does represent the kind of govt that the people of Scotland have tended to vote for for decades - certainly up till 2007.

He does represent a high spending, big govt type of political philosophy which many would argue has been Scottish political orthodoxy for decades. The "vanity" projects you speak off are really quite small by comparison with total govt expenditure. Total defence spending only makes up about 6% of govt expenditure. The Olympics is a one-off and the total govt contribution is likely to be just a scratch on the surface of govt expenditure.

Set against this is the fact that public expenditure in Scotland is, per capita, even higher than the UK average.
163

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 13:22:58


PS: Do you know India now owns those great British institutions, Range Rover and Jaguar, and that your wonderful London parliament has given us much money to make the cars so long as they are built in England.

Now, that is a very funny thing, don't you think?

If the English are moved to save their hallowed car companies but they do not see Scotland as part of thir strategy. It is a far flung province. It might as well have been in Outer Pradesh. Indeed, it might still be around today if it was in Outer Pradesh!

We mean you Scottish people no disrespect.

Salutations.

Dr. Mahindra Blog Phd.




164

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 29/03/2009 13:24:57
I can`t quite find the words to adequately express my feelings after watching "the Politics Show" today.

Anyone who thinks that Brown, Darling and Murphy have acted with an iota of integrity in this matter needs their head looked.

Watch the programme for yourselves if you haven`t already.

I don`t know what made me maddest, between the information Jim Faulds gave us ;Murphy lying to the press ;the press knowing everything before the board or the comfy easy ride that Murphy was given in the studio by, who else, Glen Campbell.

I`m away for a boak.
165

,

29/03/2009 13:25:59
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166

,

29/03/2009 13:28:48
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167

Ugly George,

29/03/2009 13:31:47
175 Los Angeles
"There is an element of the arrogant in your position, Ugly George - that somehow everybody is like England, come what may."

Totally false inference and extrapolation of my comments based on no evidence. Perhaps (only a conjecture of course as opposed to your affirmation) this says more about your own preoccupations than it does about my position.

You will notice that I commented on the possible competitive situation compared to both London and Dublin - the English speaking cities in Northern Europe (together with Edinburgh) with substantial financial servies industries. My comment was based on practical realities - not on the type of motivation you described
168

Ugly George,

29/03/2009 13:35:19
177 Los Angeles

Please find out how much the govt is using to provide loans for the whole car industry. Then work out what percentage this is of the money pumped into just one Scottish bank. (RBS)
169

,

29/03/2009 13:37:59
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170

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 13:42:47
#178 Desmo


I paraphrase a wee bit, but Jim Faulds summed up his position by saying “ I hope the people of Fife and Scotland in general remember the efforts of Alex Salmond to save the Dunfermline Building Society, I know I certainly will.”

“We put forward a business case to the FSA for a loan, not a bail-out, and this case was independently audited by KPMG and found to be sound.”

“The Treasury decision is political and not based upon sound economical judgement.”

I guess Mr Faulds should not hold his breath awaiting his OBE.


171

TWC,

Ex Labour 29/03/2009 13:48:35
Ugly George,
I meant as an independent mutual. I just watched the Dunfermline Director on the Politics show, he was livid, nobody has spoken to him from the treasury except to sympathise. He doesn't know where the £60M figure being spouted by Darling is coming from. He said that the press had the government statements before he did and he said that murphy was spouting rubbish.
Murphy was ill at ease on the programme even with the Tame Glen Campbell asking the questions. Glen should have made Murphy quote figures, The point was made that the Chelsea BS had £35m debt but was saved and Dunf BS only had £26M
The Libdem MP said that Murphy was vandalising the Dunfermline and that the Government had contributed to the situation.
Labour have done nothing for Scotland in 10 years they are a disgrace.
172

They call me mr positive,

Corstorphine 29/03/2009 13:49:51
Another Scottish financial institution bites the dust. I find this whole experience very embarrassing for both myself and my country. I now think I will not see and experience an independant Scotland in my lifetime.

Where was the presbyterian ethic before all these bad investments were made?

But what really annoys me more than anything else is the way manufacturing is just left to die whilst financial institutions get zillions thrown at them. Take the case of NCR in Dundee. 250 jobs gone down the Tay and to where. Hungary! A right dump of a country and in a worse financial mess than most. How much would it have cost to keep those jobs in Dundee. A couple of % of employer NI would have been a good start.

173

Denis,

29/03/2009 13:53:20
Before anybody draws conclusions about England v Scotland, Union v independence, etc, etc they might care to look at this from last September:

http:// www.financemarkets.co.uk/2008/09/08/nationwide-rescues-cheshire-and-derbyshire-building-societies/

and this from November:

http://www .financemarkets.co.uk/2008/11/03/skipton-and-scarborough-building-societies-announce-merger/

Nationwide agreed to take over two building societies in England, Cheshire and Derbyshire, which had combined losses of £28 million; Scarborough has fled into the arms of Skipton; Barnsley was hit by the collapse of the Icelandic banks, and was forced to merge with Yorkshire.

Plus, even though Britannia is still sound, it's proposing a merger with the Co-op.

All this has being going on in England, and I don't suppose that the members of those four societies have been particularly pleased that their local building society has ended being taken over by a bigger society, but hardly anybody has seen it as having any special relevance to the Union of England and Scotland.

Now a similar thing has struck Dunfermline, and suddenly it proves all kinds of points.

My guess is that Dunfermline will survive, in some form, but probably as the Scottish arm of a larger society.
174

Stan Butler,

29/03/2009 13:56:09


The Dunfermline is bust.

The Government has taken over its bad debts allowing what is left to be sold off, rather than let the Society simply die.

I can understand why Faulds and the rest of the Dunfermline board are irate. They'll be getting their P45s this week.

I can understand why Fat N'Eck Salmond and the SNP want to make political mischief, though we only have to recall the stupidity of their line on HBOS ('it's a good bank, it's a sound bank, it's been sold off cheap') to realise they have nothing worthwhile to contribute. No mention yet of Alex Neil organising a rescue deal like his self indulgent fantasy with HBOS, but I suppose there's still time.

What I don't understand is why anyone thinks that any business that is bust should simply be able to carry on as before as if nothing has happened.

On a more important note I wonder what Sandi Thom had for breakfast?

175

Linoleum Blownapart,

29/03/2009 14:01:14
188 Spam Butler

What a crass post.
176

TWC,

29/03/2009 14:02:49
188 Stan Butler

This is a sad situation badly managed by the Labour disaster of a Government. Communication was terrible and the figures do not appear to be the same from Mr faulds and the Tresury.

I wonder what Jaqui Smith and her man watched on TV last night?
177

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 14:09:04
188 Stan Butler

I am merely curious, what is your view upon the UCS work-in in the mid ‘70s?

Do you know that Jimmy Reid is now a SNP member and activist?
178

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 14:10:03
Ugly George so yourself a favour and read the story in the Sunday Herald. You too Stan. There is no doubt in my mind that this has been a political decision not a pragmatic one.

179

Ronald Penman,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 14:17:33
Another day - another NEW LABOUR tidal wave of sleaze and corruption. But wait! One man will be doing cartwheels at the plight of poor old Jaqui Smith. So step forward David Blunket, far right lunatic, "voice" of The Sun, and serial shagg*r!
180

IainGlasgow,

29/03/2009 14:19:00
How about the consortium that wanted to buy HBOS scraping some loose chamge together to buy the Dunfermline?

Gordon Brown still has over a year left in power, could well be plenty of time to completely eradicate the Scottish (non public-sector) economy if people don't act to stop him.
181

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 29/03/2009 14:19:55
#187 Denis

#188 SB

The dunfermline is not bust.

They asked for a loan, not a bail out.

KPMG verified their repayment plans as "sound"

The Scottish Government offered to make a significant contribution to the loan required.

The "mandarins" in London vetoed this common-sense measure without even having the decency to tell the board.

I`m staggered that anyone at all, let alone any "Scotsmen" can Get away with this spiteful, mendacious vandalism
182

Linoleum Blownapart,

29/03/2009 14:20:09
When Jaqui's husband was watching the films, what hand did he use for the "pause" button?
183

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 14:28:16
Yuck.
184

Rasco,

29/03/2009 14:30:30
Glen Campbell did not like what Mr Faulds had to say the truth always hurts we all know how he lets creepy Spud of the hook but this today was going even a bit far for him,even at the end when he asked Spud about a written guarantee from FIFA about the Scotland team Spud says he never asked for a letter so how can he be so sure putting a GB team in the Olympics won't affect the other national teams.I would like to see Spud and Mr Faulds being interviewed together by an independent person.
185

Marga,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 14:41:52
Denis (187) - The real scandal lies here (Sunday Herald) - at least the English companies had a planned demise:

The FSA and Dunfermline had been in talks since October 2008 and were understood to be close to a deal to give access to £26m through the Treasury's liquidity scheme. But the FSA was under-strength and unable to handle the situation properly while fire-fighting elsewhere in the financial system.

186

IainGlasgow,

29/03/2009 14:45:04
Gordon will probably be looking for a way to sell Irn Bru off to Coca Cola or Diageo next.
187

The Brain,

29/03/2009 14:50:59
The Dunfermline made bad business decisions and couldn't even install an IT system without losing millions. It may as well have been run by Labour.

Bad businesses deserve to go under. Why should I have to pay taxes to underwrite failure?
188

Martyk,

29/03/2009 14:52:19
Poor Scotland. How much longer will this nightmare go on ? Prudent Scots my eye.
189

,

29/03/2009 14:56:20
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190

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 15:04:11
200 Very interesting Col. The amount of money that would be needed to ''save'' the DBS is peanuts compared to the amounts the Treasury have thrust at the High St Banks, to little avail with some of them, who continue to refuse to lend to business. And as far as I understand it, the sums involved are entirely quantifiable, unlike the situation with the banks.

It is a very bizarre decision to make, unless you apply a political logic to it. And all in Brown's backyard as well. He really has contempt for his constitutents, that might be the Glenrothes effect.
191

The Brain,

29/03/2009 15:04:13
205

Paying taxes to underwrite failure is a central pillar and mantra of socialism.

Why do I need to wait for Nat to apply that sentiment to New Labour? It's obvious that is the case. And old Labour, and the SNP's left.

Everyone with any communist leanings believes that underwriting failure is an essential part of government.

Just look at the SNP wanting to do it here, with Dunfermline. The mind boggles. Let it go down.

I'd as soon refund an old jakey who lost £10 on Quick Lightning at the 2.40 at Doncaster.
192

The Brain,

29/03/2009 15:07:35
205 Observer

You fail to understand, as usual.

Here is an abstract example;

If you owe the bank £100 and can't repay, that's YOUR problem.

If you owe the bank £10,000,000 and can't repay, that's THEIR problem.

Society can afford to let this one go down, and should.

I guess "the political logic" is that WE couldn't afford the big ones to go down because THEY owed US so much.

Do you understand a bit better now?

I'd've let them all hang. Couldn't give a monkey's. It'd 've worked out less painful in the medium to long term.
193

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 15:27:51
Brainless - my views on the banking fiasco are known to regular posters and they didn't involve bailing them out. And I didn't advocate bailing out the DBS either. What I said was that the Treasury's decision not to ''save'' the DBS made no logical sense unless the decision was made for political reasons. Comprende ?
194

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 15:32:27
Do you know Brainless one of the first people to nationalise was Otto von Bismarck ? Not a notable communist. He took things into state ownership to make them function, as they were not functioning in the private sphere. That is what the government should have done with the banks, it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper for the tax payer.
195

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 29/03/2009 15:33:01
#207 The Brain (sic)

Who the f@*k are you to decide "Society can afford to let this one go down,and should" ?

What you fail to understand is that there was a way out of this for the Dunfermline, which was certified by KPMG, and the funds could have been provided by the Scottish Government if they received the necessary approval from the Treasury.

The Treasury refused to grant this approval.

We are entitled to know why.

Any suggestions ?
196

Edward,

29/03/2009 15:37:41
The Politics Show Scotland exposed Labour forwhat they are!
As usual the BBC couldnt bring itself to have a live interview with FM Salmond either during or after the interview with the Dunfermline BS chairman.That would have been too much for Labour to bear!
What the chairman stated was very telling and hopefullly the voters of Fife and the rest of Scotland bear it in mind at the general election!
Labour simply did nothing but put out so much spin against the Building Society The treasury which includes creeps like Darling and Yvette Cooper did nothing to help.It was telling that the Chairman found the Scittish Government more helpful
The unionist lackies on this forum should crawl back under the stones they came from and die! Scotland does not need the likes of you,nor does it need Labour,or people like Brown, Darling or Murphy!
Scotland needs to be rid of the union and to be Independent!
Yes Im angry and it may come as a surprise tothose unionist creeps , but I was a Labour suporter as recent as the last generalelection in 2005. Guess what, I will not be voting Labour or any of the unionist parties in the next election. The SNPnow have my support
197

Stan Butler,

29/03/2009 15:49:09
#191 bully wee alba

Any attempt to equate UCS with a bankrupt Dunfermline Building Society is silly. Which is probably why you've done it.

Jimmy Reid. Do you know he used to be a leading member of the Communist Party? He stuck with them to the bitter end. He must have joined sometime after Hungry 1956 when all the best members left. All through the Prague spring Jimmy was a staunch party member, advocating the reformist nonsense of The British Road to Socialism. Not that there's any mention of his communist past in any of the SNP blurb about him.

When the CP collapsed he joined the Labour Party before he joined the SNP.

So his political career path has been the usual steady drift to the right. He's a living embodiment of the old CP saying that even dead fish can swim with the tide.

Perhaps if he'd followed his own stricture ('there will be nae bevying') he might have turned out differently.
198

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 29/03/2009 15:54:04
#212 Edward

Couldn`t agree more.

If there are any ordinary people left, who support the Labour party in Scotland, I`d love to hear a defence, if such can possibly be made, of how they have behaved on this issue.
199

Linoleum Blownapart,

29/03/2009 15:54:27
Spam Butter

"He must have joined sometime after Hungry 1956 when all the best members left."

Hungry? Deserted the cut & paste from Wiki have you?

200

Stan Butler,

29/03/2009 15:54:44
#200 Col. Blimp­IV


Yeah and HBOS was a sound bank, wasn't it?

Lloyds bought it for less than market value, didn't they?

If the Dunfermline ain't broke, what's the problem?

They can sort out their own finances.
201

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 15:56:31
213 Low blow Stan, can't you just stick to the politics ? Your perpetual personal attacks on people don't do you any favours.
202

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 15:58:58
''They can sort out their own finances.''

Oh if only we could say the same for the Treasury, Stan.

203

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 16:01:59
Robert Peston of BBC fame (not a notable nat) has calculated that we have placed £1,300,000,000,000 at the disposal of the banking system (if you want to talk about reformism Stan).
204

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 29/03/2009 16:11:55
Like Charles de Gaulle and Margaret Thatcher, we must say NON to further aquisitions and mergers. Power lost est puissance ettenué.

A & M can have some point inthe industrial sector but in the financial sector it is suicide.

"If England was let into the EEC, they'd wreck it", as has HAPPENED to Great Britain now only known as the UK.
205

TWC,

29/03/2009 16:16:18
Labour are just blindering from one disaster to the next saying we'll do whatever is necessary but not defining what the result of their action will be.
I know one thing Scotland doesn't feature very highly in their plans.
206

The Scotchman,

29/03/2009 16:19:22
#143 you forgot to mention that these are all aliases used by Gordon Brown himself. He's the only one who would write such disillusioned stuff.

Vote SNP.
207

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 29/03/2009 16:26:24
It seems Murphy was not alone in resorting to lies in order to blacken the Dunfermline`s name.

Yvette Cooper, while desperately avoiding the question of why, exactly, had the Treasury chose this "solution", mentioned the "purchases made in the Sub-Prime markets"

This is simply untrue. It`s lies.

This is the most naked, spiteful and transparent attempt to sabotage an important Scottish financial institution yet.

I didn`t have a great opinion of Brown (my own MP) to begin with but I`d no idea he was the guttersnipe these events have proved him to be
208

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 29/03/2009 16:39:05
I feel sorry for John Swinney. He's trying his best but is clearly out of his depth. I hope that Alex finds him an easier job elsewhere in his cabinet.
209

,

29/03/2009 16:50:28
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210

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2009 16:52:26
Ugly George.

You have stated, and re-stated, ad nauseam on this thread that, "the Government can't take over a Mutual".

Pray tell, what did Thatcher do to that Mutual that was TSB???

Ugly, even apologism has some basis in truth!!!
211

The Strategist,

29/03/2009 16:54:48
#223

Labour has to lie. Rather like their use of "it's a global problem that started in the USA" it's a useful way for Labour to cover up their appalling economic management which I remind you led to record household debt, record govt debt, record house prices and a record trade deficit.

Brown will get his comeuppance but the problem now is limiting the damage he can do before he's thrown out of office.
212

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 17:06:59
frank mcbride (226): "You have stated, and re-stated, ad nauseam on this thread that, "the Government can't take over a Mutual"."

Ugly George is not quite correct here: a suitable Act of Parliament can take control of a mutual, but the Human Rights Act would require the members of the mutual society to receive fair value.

"Pray tell, what did Thatcher do to that Mutual that was TSB???"

TSB wasn't a mutual society, in that the depositors had no voting rights. Only the trustees had that power, hence the name trustee savings bank.
213

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 17:14:16
Col. Blimp (220): "If it is, with assets of around £3 billion, one would be tempted to say...So what?"

The key point is that its assets are its loans. many of these will have been made before the end of the boom, implying that the current market value of its assets is probably much less than £3 billion. Further, because of its many corporate lenders, and because of the much higher default rate of corporate lenders, due to limited liability, they can probably expect losses in the hundreds of millions of pounds, dwarfing their relatively small loss.

"It is also said that it would take as much as £100 million to but it back on track."

Or, indeed, more. The only real way is to wait and see.

"That is about £350 for every qualifying account holder."

That's roughly correct, and one possible route would be to ask the depositors to provide more funds. Unfortunately, there would be an extremely good chance that would lead to a run on the DBS.
214

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

29/03/2009 17:39:08
Ignoring the dribbling fucktards above.

Anyone on facebook please join. 'Protest Against Labour Sellout of Dunfermline Building Society'
215

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 17:44:41
My comment was based on practical realities (Ugly George)

Your comments are a variation of those thrown at Scottish voters before the last election, that we are too weak and poor a nation to survive the worst of the worst.

First, I have no idea why anybody would want to put forward that argument whilst claiming the Union is better. The Union dominates Scottish politics and life and you can see where it has gotten us.

Second, even if I was to accept all your opinion, the answer to it is always the same: let us live by our own errors, not yours.

That's called maturity, a mature nation making it's way in the world, "grow up" being the tedious jibe invariably thrown at the independently minded.
216

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 17:49:39
I feel sorry for John Swinney. He's trying his best but is clearly out of his depth. (Lance Boyle, brother of Jimmy)

I don't think Swinney wants or needs you sympathy. What he needs is for the people of Scotland to cut the ties to Westminster domination that block him from making solutions that benefit Scotland.

The public are watching events carefully. I have a feeling the veto on DBS rescue has alienated many a Unionist from that camp.


217

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 17:52:30
231 Los angeles
"Your comments are a variation of those thrown at Scottish voters before the last election, that we are too weak and poor a nation to survive the worst of the worst"

I believe that I said on an earlier post that I am not responsible for the comments of others - only for what I say. You, like so many others, are asribing to me views which I have not expressed and do not hold.

For some reason you fire at me comments from others who you call unionists. Why? All I am expecting is that you respond to points I make. I am not here to defend comments made by others merely on your assumption that I concur with them.
218

Ugly George,

edinburgh 29/03/2009 17:57:45
226 frank
"Pray tell, what did Thatcher do to that Mutual that was TSB???"

Please inform me. As far as I am aware Margaret Thatcher was not a bank so it was not possible for her to take over the TSB. The TSB was taken over by Lloyds but, by the rules of any mutual, the members of the TSB must have voted to accept this.

What is your point?
219

The Brain,

29/03/2009 17:59:04
"the people of Scotland ... that block him [Swine-y]"

Los Angeles, slowly but surely your language gets closer and closer to the truth.

You're obviously benefiting from some time on the couch. Hopefully, you will be able to understand sooner or later and then maybe we can get some sense out of you.

The people of Scotland indeed, perhaps you should respect their decision?
220

Ugly George,

29/03/2009 18:00:45
230 gussie
Ignoring your crude and insulting refernce to previous contributors, please tell us what your alternative is for a mutual which went into severe losses through its own bad judgement.
221

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:04:00
Los Angeles, like you say, it is the people of Scotland that block the SNP.

Let's face the facts, independence is going to be blocked by the people too. Let it go, it's time for you to move on. Probably better for your nerves too, there's a lad - everything's gonna be okay.
222

Ugly George,

29/03/2009 18:04:55
226 Frank
I see that Fairfax in post 228 has corrected the misunderstanding. As a result my post 234 is inaccurate in some respects and superfluous apart from the fact that it was not margaret thatcher who took over the TSB.
223

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:06:35
Los Angeles, slowly but surely your language gets closer and closer to the truth. (Brainless)

And your remain utterly brainless.

As for respecting the people of Scotland's decision, Internet sadists such as you spend most of your day trying to defeat them.

224

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:07:57
Los Angeles, like you say, it is the people of Scotland that block the SNP
(Brainless)

I see you won't play by website ruiles.
Well, two can play that came.
225

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:09:06

On reading this thread I have altered my opinion - Scotland independent is the only answer. (Brainless)

Well done, Brainless - you have seen the light!
226

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:13:31
241 Los Angeles,

I feel we're losing you again. You clearly acknowledge it is the people of Scotland that have spoken to stop Swinney and by extention the SNP at your post at 232.

Oh dear, I sense you're going to 'have one'.
227

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:15:13
I am expecting is that you respond to points I make. (Ugly George)

I did.

It's only that you don't like them.

I regard the convoluted, quasi-financial, psuedo-commercial reasons spewed on this thread for the continuing domination of Scotland as clap-trap.

Unionists always resort to cold financial statistics to determine a nation is too poor to go it alone.

They have nothing to offer on aspiration, the spiritual, opportunity for initiative, or hope.

It's as if we argue with a bloody abacus.
228

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:17:44
I feel you're going to have one. (Brainless Dufus)

A quite stunning argument for staying in the Union. Yes, the future is orange.
229

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:19:54
Got it yet? (Sm753)

Yes, you get so much out of being British you berate and abuse others who you say are British. That's no way to make friends.

Oh, your abacus, it's bust, just like the UK Treasury.


230

Ugly George,

29/03/2009 18:21:03
225 Jwil
I have stated on this thread and others that I am not a fan of Gordon Brown or the present govt. He is, in my view responsible for lumbering the Uk economy with frightening levels of debt through profligate public expenditure.

However I cannot agree that everything that goes wrong is his fault. The problems of the Dunfermline BS, RBS, HBOs, Northern Rock, Bradford and Bingley etc. were problems of their own making. They all pursued strategies which were flawed and landed them in trouble as opposed to other institutions which pursued more prudent strategies.

That is the way it goes - whether you are in govt, business, sport, social services or whatever you should stand or fall on the basis of your decisions rather than always looking for somebody else to blame - especially when that body which you seek to blame has to carry out a bail out on a poor situation caused by your poor deecision making.

When will people in general start taking responsibility for their own actions rather than merely seeking to blame others. I personally, have lost a fair amount on an investment in RBS. I don't blame Fred Goodwin, I don't blame the FSA and I don't blame the govt. I accept that I made a dog of a decision and am prepared to accept the consequences rather than looking for somebody else to blame.

231

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:23:09
However I cannot agree that everything that goes wrong is Brown's fault. ((Ugly George)

Is that the point?

If you doctor was lethally inept last week in tending to your relative would you call him today when you fall ill?
232

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:24:02
When will people in general start taking responsibility for their own actions rather than merely seeking to blame others?

(Ugly George)

That's EXACTLY why we want to run our own country once more.

233

Ugly George,

29/03/2009 18:24:51
243 Los Angeles
You claim that you did respond to my points but you did not really. You responded by lumping my comments with those of others. That is not the same thing.
234

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:27:48
You claim that you did respond to my points (Ugly George)

I responded as I saw fit; your circular argument only ever leads to restating, ad nauseam, Scotland cannot look after its own.

Are you suggesting you will?

Two years ago we were told Scotland was a subsidy junkie. Now we are told we should stay that way, it's good for us.

235

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:29:23
I don't want any Nats as friends (SM7530)

That renders you unfit to advise or lead.


236

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 18:32:08
250 Los Angeles
OK then so stop blaming everybody else. Look at one of your previous comments:
"and the people of Scotland, seeing their country battered by the sheer indeptitude they did not create,"

Really - Who was responsible for the ineptitude at DBS, RBS and HBOS. Where are the parliamentary constituencies of the current PM and Chancellor.
237

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:34:50
Who was responsible for the ineptitude?
Ugly George)

You are running in circles.

I'll repeat my earlier comment:

"When will people in general start taking responsibility for their own actions rather than merely seeking to blame others?"
(Ugly George)

That's EXACTLY why we want to run our own country once more. (LA)


238

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:37:27
256 Los Angeles

Maybe you should have a sit down and a cup of tea son? You seem to be 'having one'.
239

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:39:25

You seem to be 'having one'. (Brainless Dufus)

How do you manage to type wearing a straight jacket? With your nose?



240

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:41:35
The rule is, as every high school student knows, borrow short, loan long and you're in the brown stuff.

IT system overspend of 11 Million, that is 6 years profit (assuming best profit can be repeated.)

Don't loan high ratios against falling assets.

Employ qualified bankers to run the show.

Don't overextend yourself.



The Dunfermline broke all of those. They were free to make those isolated decisions and they're free to face the consequences all alone.

Why should I go out and work to pay money over to underwrite that failure?
241

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:42:22

Hey, Dufus,

It's time to bring in the reinforcements ... bi'of agro, bi' of intimidashun, on the soles ov their feet, and fings, where nuffink shows, know wha' I mean? Nudge, nudge.

Where's Curley Bill, the man who claimed he kissed Wallace's sword in oath to Scotland? Wheel him on. We enjoy a good laugh.
242

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 29/03/2009 18:42:30
#248 Ugly George

Brown and the Labour party actively encouraged this debt madness and refused to regulate it. Yes all these clowns in charge of these banks and building societies took advantage of the lack of regulation to get their greedy snouts in the trough but the buck stops with Brown and the Labour party as they were sucking up to these very same people in the hope that some of the loot being made would come their way.

#237 The Brain

We will see how the people will vote in a referendum when they are told that the unionist parties are funded from England and as a result are not Scottish. That the Scottish MP's at Westminster are getting paid to do absolutely nothing, tens of millions of pounds that could be spent on hospitals and schools and also that England want a referendum on Europe because they don't want to be in the same position as Scotland is in the UK. That is just three things for starters. www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
243

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:42:55
Los Angeles,

Can you tell us why *this* failure must be underwritten by society?
244

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:43:28
Why should I go out and work to pay money over to underwrite that failure? (Brainless)

Work? But your unemployable! LoL

245

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 18:44:28
Ugly George (248): "However I cannot agree that everything that goes wrong is his fault."

Much as I dislike Brown, I have to agree. For that reason, it's useful to make a brief summary of what can, rationally, be blamed on Brown:

(i) Financial profligacy -- you had already mentioned his massive public sector spending;
(ii) Financial legerdemain: PFIs have too often been used to disguise public expenditure, and will often incur higher future costs and risks for the taxpayer;
(iii) The changed role of the Bank of England: the tripartite FSA/BofE/Treasury system has not functioned well. Even now, despite the increased responsibilities of the bank assigned to it, the Bank has not been given the powers to require access to banks' books;
(iv) Brown's own inability to make vital decisions quickly: we have seen this many times, from the woeful slowness to accept the demise of Northern Rock, and to nationalize it, to his own civil servants being required (when he was Chancellor) to draft several parallel versions of his budgets, to postpone the final decision to the last possible moment;

That said, the excellent rhetoric of Matthew Parris is worth reading:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/


246

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 29/03/2009 18:44:37
Ah yes. Right on cue, we have the appearance of smee.

Now we know it`s a stitch-up.
247

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:45:20

Can you tell us why *this* failure must be underwritten by society? (Brainless)

Do you mean you? Why should you receive welfare money when you spend all day posting crapology on websites?

The future's bright. The future's orange.

Eh.


248

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:45:53
261 Freddie

"We will see how the people will vote in a referendum..."

Yes, we will. Not in 2010 though, it will be voted down. But anytime when (and if) the SNP get a working majority, then - yes - we will see.

All evidence points to the Scots voting no. But that may change in the future, I suppose. Also, it may not, I suppose. We will see.

Anyway, a subject for another day. What do you think of Salmond trying to force us, the tax-payer, to underwrite yet more failure?
249

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:47:31
What do you think of Salmond trying to force us, the tax-payer, to underwrite yet more failure? (Brainless)

Show us proof of the last time you paid tax.

250

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:48:40
Ah yes. Right on cue, the appearance of smee. Now we know it`s a stitch-up. (Desmo)

Tactic 12a, scam 4.
251

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:50:59
268 Los Angeles

"Show us proof of the last time you paid tax."

Dear boy, how many items that aren't fresh foods can you name that aren't taxed at least twice?

Failing that, I'll just post my p-60 on this website for all to see shall I?

Honestly, have that sit down with a cuppa, it'll do you the world of good lad.
252

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:52:32
Failing that, I'll just post my p-60 on this website for all to see shall I?
(Brainless)

Yes, please.

You post falsehoods and lies most of the time why should anybody believe you pay tax to anybody?
253

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:54:30

Dear boy (Brainless)

I just love the Scottish idiomatic phrases you employ. LoL

254

argonaut,

east lothian 29/03/2009 18:56:11

and the weekends news is : - westminister goverment refuses to ' loan ' dunfermline 20 - 30 million which jim faulds states would be paid back with interest within a set period of time and jackie smith says sorry to the taxpayer cos her husband has been watching cable porn movies and her expense account is paying for it.

the dunfermline issue is defo political, another treasury ploy to emasculate us all - 20 - 30 million is going to make no difference to government coffers except it would save a scots finance institution. delete defeat destroy all things scots.....

you look at this westminster cabinet - broon, murphy , smith, darling etc etc..the toes curl, the teeth grind, the fists clench.......disgusting is an understatement, revolting is a compliment - they are the pits, truly creatures from the deep.

255

The Brain,

29/03/2009 18:56:22
"You post falsehoods and lies most of the time why should anybody believe you pay tax to anybody?"

Is there any thought of yours that don't have obvious and glaring flaws?

Fred Goodwin pays far more tax than me. He posts truths and verifiable truths does he.

Tony Blair pays taxes on his millions. Again, your veracity is proportionally linked to your tax bill is it.

Please, you aren't very intelligent. Try and compensate with politeness, that way people will be less inclined to point out your failings.
256

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:56:43

We pause while Brainless Dufus searches his computer records for an old taunt at LA he can reuse, once he dusts it down, scrapes off the chewing gum, and the rat droppings.



257

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 18:58:20
Is there any thought of yours that don't have obvious and glaring flaws?
(Brainless Dufus)

You have just used an identical phrase of Rufus the Dufus. Keep strict records of use!

The futrure's bright, the future's orange.


258

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 19:03:28
No. Grow up (SM)

We have. We are taking our country back!

Okay, I'm waiting for you to scold Brainless for his absence of contribution to the thread. (Mine was posted earlier)

If you are going to play the even-handed blogger - now's your chance.
259

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 19:05:40
the dunfermline issue is defo political, another treasury ploy to emasculate us all - 20 - 30 million is going to make no difference to government coffers except it would save a scots finance institution. delete defeat destroy all things scots..... (Argonaut)

Smee - to save time I'll go with this contribution.


260

Soloman,

Stirling 29/03/2009 19:06:38

I presume that as Business Secretary,crooked Lord Peter Mandelson will have had a hand in all of the web of lies relating to The Dunfermline.

I can't imagine why people any-where in the once proud UK would want the likes of Mandelson, Brown, Darling or Murphy being left to making such big decisions.

Out with Mandelson
Out with Brown
Out with Murphy
Out with Darling
Out with New Labour

No return for The Tories.

X INDEPENDENCE FROM WESTMINSTER X
261

BIG EYE,

Paisley 29/03/2009 19:09:22
The Union is teetering on the brink of collapse.Orders have been given for the last few numpties led by Rufus to get out there an defend the indefensible.

If anybody organises a protest in Dunfermline my family will all be there.

We are against theft.
262

Martyk,

29/03/2009 19:15:51
Ugly George. You are a poster of the highest quality. Read all yours. Skim some. Thank you. I suppose though we can look for the silver lining. We only have Standard Life left as a Scots based and owned financial institution so they , whether the unionist plotters or the incompetent managers , take your pick , cant really hurt us much more. I fully expect SL to be bought out soon by some foreign firm from a better regulated jurisdiction such as Spain. Then we will have no Scots financial institutions left. And then " they " cant hurt us anymore.
263

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 19:19:33
"If you are going to play the even-handed blogger - now's your chance." (SM)

No, no no.

You can't wriggle out of it that easily.
Scold Brainless for HIS idiocy.

By the way, do you bunch, Brainless Dufus 753 and flute band have a permit to march through this thread?

The future might be bright, and it might well be orange, but you need a permit to march this far making a racket and spouting drivel. You are holding up traffic.

264

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 19:21:43
Then we will have no Scots financial institutions left. And then " they " cant hurt us anymore. (Martyk)

Post your address and we will send you bandages and aspirin.

(Are you the first of the recruits? Bit young to be doing a sadist's job.)



265

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 19:22:07
There's to be a takeover, according to Bloomberg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aG0tDjg_jpEs
266

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 29/03/2009 19:23:13
Thereagain, Japan has has progressed without deindustialising any city. It's a peculiarly British notion. Japan previously operated as a province of the American bankster faction personified by the Rockefellers, but these times are a-changing. Gordon Brown is summoned to G20 to be told by his handlers that, "sorry, we don't run the world any more".
267

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 19:24:35

Gordon Brown is summoned to G20 to be told, "sorry, we don't run the world any more". (Yok)

LoL. Neat.

268

BIG EYE,

Paisley 29/03/2009 19:34:14
SM753

You wouldn't recognise us as to do so you need the ability to see.

From your posts I can see things and this is a skill you still have to pick up.
269

Los Angeles,

29/03/2009 19:39:25
Why this bizarre obsession with the assumption that Scottish unionists are ... thumping great hypocrits? (SM753)

Could it have something to do with the fact you refuse to castigate one of them, Brainless, for his headbanging?

(PS: "Castigate" is not sexual deviation.)

Gosh, is that the time already?
270

Brian Hill,

29/03/2009 19:40:46
Poor old London labour. One blunder after another these days.

1.) If Dunfermline is in such a state why are others queuing up to buy it....many of them English as it happens?

If an English company does buy it that will compound London Labour's folly even more.

2.) The Scottish Government has tried to help and has even put money on the table but the London Treasury and the London based FSA are refusing to even look at a possible rescue plan. THEY want it sold....well, merged....a much softer word.

2.) Jim Faulds, boss of DBS was magnificent on the Politics Show today. He ripped the London Treasury apart, laying the blame for what will effectively be an English takeover squarely at the door of the Labour Government whilst thanking Salmond profusely for his efforts to save DBS.

Never was a man so passionate and so articulate. I'm not surprised they interviewed him separately from Jim Murphy, he would ripped smooth talking Murphy apart as well.

Had this come before Glenrothes not even Labour's voting shenanagins would have saved them. They would have been slaughtered.

We can all look forward to Jim Faulds reminding Fife over and over again that the demise of DBS was thanks solely to the London Labour Government and that voters should take that into account as they enter the polling booth.
271

The Brain,

29/03/2009 19:54:16
Wow! Nearly 300 posts and only two of the SNP's racist posts at 5 and 93 deleted for poking fun at ethnic minorities. That's pretty good going for a thread.

I think the SNP fail to realise that England takes on most of the immigrants.

Hopefully the SNP will come to realise racism is a bad thing. But still, just the 2 openly racist posts from the SNP today. Good going.

Keep it up you SNPers! Hopefully one day we can to 300 with no racist hostility from you.
272

The Brain,

29/03/2009 19:54:32
300 for the Union
273

Martyk,

29/03/2009 19:55:18
Will Jacqui Smith be able to claim for her husbands tissue expenditure ? Must be substantial.
274

The Scotchman,

29/03/2009 19:59:00
Darling more or less branded a liar. No doubt had instructions from Fuhrer Brown. Watch interview with Faulds the chairman here.

http://tiny.cc/YSI3V
275

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 20:00:34
OL what's the skinny on this Jum Faulds guy then Smee ?

I hate to disappoint everyone but Jacquie's man wasn't watching porn it was just an 18 rated movie.

Oh and Smee - Arnold R1mmer ?
276

The Brain,

29/03/2009 20:03:43
301 Martyk

Re Jacqui Smith. I can't stop laughing. How ironic, she embezzled £'0,000s and her career is ended over a tenner.

It was Boris Johnson who said it recently, politics is about strangling gnats, the electorate never seem to respond to the big fraud.

I guess Mr Mitchell was strangling something else. Hehe.

I hope there is a question in parliament. "Does the prime-minister believe charging the tax payer for pornography brings this house into disripute?"

Something simple like that would do.

Like the Great Robbers, I bet she thought she got away with it. But then there is the small matter of that careless £10!

LMFAO. You couldn't write it!
277

The Brain,

29/03/2009 20:05:35
They got Al Capone for income tax evasion after all.

The 'baddies' never seem to get done on what everyone knows they are doing. Funny that.
278

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 20:06:36
Brian Hill (296): "Jim Faulds, boss of DBS was magnificent on the Politics Show today. He ripped the London Treasury apart, laying the blame for what will effectively be an English takeover squarely at the door of the Labour Government"

What, precisely, would have been your desired solution? The DBS has some £650 million of corporate loans, and some £150 million dubious mortgages. The UK taxpayer has taken responsibility for the most toxic of these, leaving a mutual which might now find a purchaser. This is fairly similar to the strategy followed for Bradford and Bingley, as well as Alliance and Leicester.

"If an English company does buy it that will compound London Labour's folly even more."

Which would you prefer? An English corporate takeover of DBS or a non-British buyer? If so, why?
279

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 20:13:12
Observer (303): "I hate to disappoint everyone but Jacquie's man wasn't watching porn it was just an 18 rated movie."

The Express began the claim that it was "adult films". I'm sure he would have denied that in his statement if they were merely 18-rated movies. Still, it's the naivety that is so amazing: couldn't her husband use Google?

It's difficult not to feel some compassion here, despite my general dislike for Labour.
280

Martyk,

29/03/2009 20:20:08
Why should we pay for it whatever it was.
281

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 20:21:07
307 What I have read says they were adult rated films, ie 18. That could be anything. I seriously doubt if Downing Street would be backing them if he was watching porn in the house. I seriously doubt he would be stupid enough to do that. And I have absolutely no doubt she would have his guts for garters if he was. It's all quite amusing, but inaccurate.
282

KWC,

Edinburgh 29/03/2009 20:21:11
Darling says that it culd have cost uo to £100m to bail out the Dunfermline, but he could not justify it as it was an 'investment' that would be unlikely to be able to pay itself back.

Does this mean that he thinks that RBS, HBOS, Northern Rock et al are investments that will pay back handsomely? They are a loss now and will be for generations. Dunfermline's crime is to be Scottish. These Scots in London have no interest in helping Scotland. It won't be voting for them so f**k 'em.
283

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 20:22:33
308 Of course we shouldn't pay for it. Why should we pay for her internet connection either ? Is she trying to pretend she wouldn't be connected to the net if she wasn't an MP ?
284

The Brain,

29/03/2009 20:23:03
Observer

It's definately porn! Now shut up and start laughing!
285

The Brain,

29/03/2009 20:24:22
310 KWC

Darling is a closet Trotski-ite. Dunfermline isn't powerful enough to clobber with enforced commie take-over.

Simples.
286

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 20:24:45
OK OK..
287

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 20:30:37
Observer (309): "What I have read says they were adult rated films, ie 18. That could be anything."

Possibly. However, given reports of taxpayer-funded onanism, he would presumably have grasped at that explanation, if it were available.

"I seriously doubt if Downing Street would be backing them if he was watching porn in the house."

There's arguably precedent: several PMs lived in Downing Street with their mistresses. His answer should have been that of the Duke of Wellington when faced with an attempted blackmail concerning his mistress: "Publish and be damned!"

"I seriously doubt he would be stupid enough to do that."

Much though I would wish to defend my gender here, it's entirely credible.

"And I have absolutely no doubt she would have his guts for garters if he was."

I think she's aiming at a different part of his anatomy. . .
288

Ewan Oosami,

29/03/2009 20:48:38
#301 "Will Jacqui Smith be able to claim for her husbands tissue expenditure ? Must be substantial."
All MPs should be able to claim tissues and renting of porn videos as these are legitimate expenses for whankers
289

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 21:36:43
Fairfax, 307

It's fascinating to see you cite The Express as a credible source of news when it has previously admitted that it has published numerous items with absolutely no foundation.

As a source of credible news it is a joke.
290

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 21:38:27
You are a liar, 319

how inappropriate your chosen pseudonym when you come here and post lies - such as your post #319.
291

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 21:39:17
Ewan, 317

You're lying.
292

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 21:45:54
To various Nats posting here...

Your case for independence would be better made were you able to make factual posts explaining your case rather than providing us with a mass of seedy, nonsensical, contrived, silly posts which are almost entirely all the stuff of the gutter press: sensationalist lying drivel.

Scotland deserves better.
293

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 21:52:05
Liar, 324:

Here is your lie: ".......just hope that Ms Smith was indeed away from her home when her husband was watching porn movies......."

294

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:05:27
Liar, 326

Yours is not a question.

Your stated ".....when her husband was watching porn movies......."

You are lying.

You are a liar.
295

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:16:51
Liar, 328

The BBC has not said that her husband was watching a Porn Film.

You said it.

You are lying.

You are a liar.
296

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:23:53
Liar, 328

Latest BBC article on this case:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7970731.stm

No mention of him watching Porn Films.

You said he watched Porn films.

The BBC did not.

You are lying.

You are a liar.
297

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 29/03/2009 22:28:04
What a disgrace this Labour shower are. They have spewed their lies all over the media that the Dunfermline have £60-100 million in sub-prime toxic debts even though their own auditors say that the company will be ok, even though the company's own auditors say they will be ok and even after Jim Faulds say they have no toxic debts. Just why are the English-funded Labour party trying to bring down this company when the Scottish government were going to support it? Just what sort of Scot supports a party doing this to their own country? - The same sort that handed Wallace over to the English! www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
298

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:33:16
Freddie, 331

like others your post is fuelled by nattie nonsense and is devoid of fact.

this aint about big bad Engerlund hammering quaint wee Scottish lender for no apparent reason...

its about....Dunfermline Building Society made some bad commercial decisions and is now Donald Ducked.

Your drivel - and the drivel of others here - DISCREDITS the case for independence.

Let's do facts rather than "Braveheart and Irn Bru" fiction.
299

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:34:56
Liar, 332

I watched that News and they did NOT say that.

Only YOU saying that. They used a different expression.

You are lying.

You are a liar.

A compulsive liar.
300

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:38:27
Liar, 332

The BBC New Channel is broadcasting here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7459669.stm

The expression they're using is NOT about "Porn Films"

You are lying.

You are a liar.

You disagree?

Provide a link to a credible website confirming your claim that he watched Porn Films.
301

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 29/03/2009 22:38:49
#330 RLuggie

Maybe that is because it is the News Of The World that has the information on the porn films and the BBC dont so they cant comment on it.

Same as I have the information on the Renfrewshire councillors who have been reported for fraud at www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com and you dont so you could hardly comment on it. Same situation as the BBC then plus if you can bother your wee ignorant self to go and read other papers online like the Times you will see that they have reported it.
302

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:41:33
Freddie, 337

Oh dear dear dear...

Maybe maybe maybe....

FLUCKIN WONDERFUL!!!

And from that highly esteemed and respected news source: the NOTW!!!

A "maybe" from the NOTW.....

UNFLUCKINBELIEVABLE!!!
303

European Scot,

29/03/2009 22:47:26
327 Rluggie

" Provide a link to a credible website confirming your claim that he watched Porn Films."

Take a look at Yahoo.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090329/tuk-smith-embroiled-in-adult-movies-row-6323e80.html


From the Press Association:-

"Downing Street has defended under-fire Home Secretary Jacqui Smith after she was was forced to apologise for "mistakenly" claiming the cost of watching a pair of adult movies on Commons expenses."

He was watching' adult movies', so what do you suppose they would be about ?
If he wants to watch 'adult movies' that's his business, but when you and I as taxpayers are footing the bill, that's our business.

Talk about one porn every minute !
304

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 29/03/2009 22:50:05
#333 RLuggie

Perhaps if you could read I never claimed it was an England v Scotland thing. It is to do with the English-funded Labour party trying to keep the UK together as they are desperate to hang on to that funding Also they are eager to hang on to the big fat salaries they get for going to the Westminster parliament for doing absolutely nothing. It is also to to do with people like yourself who put your wee cult English-funded party before your country and its people. I dont put any political party before this country and that includes the SNP unlike we cultists like yourself.
305

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:50:52
ES, 339

Yep, I had seen that article....and others and can confirm that it make NO MENTION of his watching Porn Films.

Just as the text your provided make NO MENTION of him watching Porn Films.
306

,

29/03/2009 22:51:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
307

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:55:01
Freddie, 340

Your assumptions:

# I'm a Labour man.
# I cannot read

You're making a fool of yourself!!!

The arguments you made bear up well in the gutter press and amongst angry and deluded fools but fall apart when they face true rigour.

The Dunf is Donald Ducked.

Guess who Donald Ducked them?



308

Fairfax,

29/03/2009 22:56:29
Rluggie (320): "It's fascinating to see you cite The Express as a credible source of news when it has previously admitted that it has published numerous items with absolutely no foundation."

I merely cited the Getsworse, but did not comment on its credibility. On a topic so obviously deserving of farce, there seems little need for further research.
309

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:56:37
342: a rant re "facts" from a poster incapable of accurately reflecting the acronym for one of the world's most respected new agencies?

Errrrrrr....it's the BBC....and they referred to adult movies.
310

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 22:57:50
Fairfax, 344:

and I'm simply telling you that in referring to the Express you'd be better citing The Beano.
311

RLuggie,

29/03/2009 23:00:46
I'm off to bed, guys.

Remember: your nonsensical, gutter press, silly rants actually DISCREDIT the case for independence.

STOP IT!!!

Let's leave behind the gutter press nonsense and build the case for independence on its true merits: in facts.
312

Ewan Oosami,

29/03/2009 23:00:49
RLuggie
I have just looked at the tape again - the BBC said he was watching adult movies so wind your neck in wee man and go back under your stone.
313

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 29/03/2009 23:03:12
#343 RLuggie

My assumptions are like #342 ex-labour for life - You are a "loonatic"

I think you are just beelin that they did not show you the pornos - so away and play with your action man and give us all peace!
314

Soosider,

Glasgow 29/03/2009 23:03:35
RLuggie
Please check out these links, every one uses phrases such as Porn Movies, Adult Movies, Blue Movies.
You really are embarrasing your self
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7970731.stm - Adult Films
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5996716.ece - Porn Movies , Blue Movies
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/5072701/Jacqui-Smith-under-pressure-over-husbands-adult-film-expense-claims.html Adult Movies
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacqui-smith-embarrassed-by-expenses-row-1656788.html Adult Movies
315

Los Angeles,

30/03/2009 00:56:30

Dear Sluggie

Mr. Smith emerged from his garden gate to read a brief apology expressing his deep shame and embarrassment for ...

... watching porn films, and, we must presume, his poor wife inadvertantly including them in her HoC expenses.

"Tiptoe through the tulips ..."


 

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