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Victory for Tories 'will put an end to Union'

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Published Date: 06 April 2008
By Marc Horne
A RISING Conservative star has claimed a Tory victory at the next election would be the "biggest threat to the Union since Bonnie Prince Charlie".
Leslie Clark said he fears his party winning the next general election as he believes it will make Scottish independence inevitable.

The President of the University of Aberdeen Conservative and Unionist Association also claimed that disgruntled
southern voters are looking for their own version of William Wallace to "free the oppressed English nation" from Gordon Brown and the Scots.

Clark made the comments in the Conservative student journal Blue Granite. He holds the position of political officer with the Aberdeen South branch of the Scottish Conservatives.

In an essay entitled, 'The English Nation: Hammered by the Scots?', Clark wrote: "We may well have a situation whereby a Conservative victory at the next election could be the biggest threat to the Union since Bonnie Prince Charlie.

"The SNP are itching for a Tory victory and it's an easy strategy to pinpoint.

"When the proponents of devolution argued that the Tories had no moral mandate running Scotland in the early 1990s when they only had 11 seats, just imagine what it will be like once the Tories win at Westminster with barely any Scottish representation!

"Alex Salmond will claim that they have no real democratic legitimacy to run Scotland. We could then see a seismic shift in public opinion."

He added: "The United Kingdom has turned into the divided kingdom. A Union once based on fairness has become torn apart by political inequality."

Clark, who is featured in the magazine in full dinner dress clutching a can of cider, claims "scare tactics" about independence were counterproductive.

"We should not frighten or bribe Scotland into maintaining the Union. We should not treat the electorate as children.

"Scotland and England would survive perfectly well apart – not that I advocate that policy.

"Just because the Union succeeded in the past does not mean it should be automatically accepted today.

He predicted that growing English antagonism towards Scotland's "multiple perks via the British taxpayer which are not available in England" would provoke a major constitutional crisis in the near future.

"It will take one divisive event in which Gordon Brown needs the support of his Scottish MP's to pass legislation in order to push many over the edge."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 April 2008 7:48 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Conservative Party
 
1

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 06/04/2008 00:28:51
I think he misunderstands the English. bar room bores may be the backbone of the Conservative party, but they are not representative of the English or even the people who may vote Tory next time. I fear it is people like him and the SNP who talk this up because it feeds their viewpoint.

the only people who hate the scots running london are the old etonians and public school elite who think its their birth right to undermine the and sell out the UK - or at least damage the economy. GB has had one crisis not of his making, the Tories caused one at least one every 5 years, when they were in power and laid the seeds of our current problems.

England is a diverse nation that has thrived on talent from overseas and has regularly had its gene pool enriched by migration over the centuries. The best description of english attitudes is a 'musn't grumble' can do attitude.

Those that grumble are not representative of the open nature of 'Englishness' over the past few centuries.
2

The Answer,

Glasgow 06/04/2008 00:56:41
"1 Robbierunciman,Romney Marsh 06/04/2008 00:28:51"
?
Anyway, keep up the good work SNP, England is very happy!
3

subrosa,

06/04/2008 01:13:06
# 1

I think you should read more political forums. It's not only the old etonians and public school elite who want rid of Gordon Brown & Co., it's the majority of the English.
4

democrate,

central Scotland 06/04/2008 01:25:40
a prophetic not pathetic headline
5

Mac Gill-eathan,

Perthshire 06/04/2008 01:53:23
Since Edward Charles Stuart wanted the throne of Britain, he was hardly a Scottish nationalist. I look forward to the demise of the British state & all it's perfidious imperialist trappings, good ridance to the union & forward to better Scotland. Alba gu brath!
6

Cincinnatus,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 02:45:55
#6 Well said. The SNPs commitment to maintaing the Monarchy is risible given the bulk of their membership are utterly and rightly opposed to very notion.

This is a new model army if anything, hopefully more tolerant in it's religious views, but with the same outcome (voluntary abdication, rather than heid lopping)
7

mesmiths,

fife 06/04/2008 04:14:50
THINGS I NEVER THOUGHT I'D SAY, NO.132: 'COME ON YOU TORIES'!
8

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 04:48:57
"Scotland and England would survive perfectly well apart" so where's the problem?
9

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 06/04/2008 05:41:50
How come this guy is being EDUCATED in SCOTLAND. HE IS SO CORRECT the disunited kingdom is done! The Tories will win in england and the SCOTS will leave this bancrupt Island that we as educated SCOTS have to share with them.
10

eric,

Lothian 06/04/2008 09:06:50
Most of my family in England always voted labour,Everyone of them are voting Tory in nxt election for different reasons.Some are getting anti scots remarks at the office etc etc.But most are like the English FED up with labour.The union doesnt mean anything to orinary folks in England anyway.
11

bluearmyboy,

Rugby, England 06/04/2008 09:19:08
I think whatever happens at the next General Election will have a massive impact on the independence/devolution debate.

Imagine what would happen if the Labour party were the biggest single party in the UK yet were the 2nd party in both Sotland AND England. A situation not impossible at all. In effect both Countries would have a party ruling them that neither voted for. Bring it on, then we can true and open debate about the future of the Union.
12

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 09:49:24
The UK is now a quasi-Federal State in everything but constitutional name. The centralised, 20th Century British State is long Gone With The Wind.

In the event that the Conservative Party win the next UK General Election, and still fail to accept that Devolution is now the status quo, and revert to type and attempt to abolish Devolution, then there can only be one inevitable outcome!
13

Saoghal Beag,

06/04/2008 09:50:30
it's a tough shout, Tories in power in England or more Broon, Broone and the Alexanders duette.
14

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow. 06/04/2008 11:38:13
If Scotland had proper tax-raising powers we would not need separation and all that that would involve. Scotland must be the only country in the world with a Parliament that does not raise the money it spends. I think we should have control of all taxation and pay Westminster for services rendered such as defence,foreign affairs etc on a pro rata basis.
A better idea might be to have a full federal system like the USA where there is state taxation and federal taxation working perfectly well together.
15

Geoff,

sa 06/04/2008 11:50:45
I absolutely disagre that a tory victory at Westminster should damage the Unionist cause. In fact it is essential that the Tories win in order that the Union prevails BUT what is essential from the UK tory Party is that they run an effective UK wide campaign in diseminating their policies AND defending the Union. In reality, if the Scots could vote overwhelmingly for Blair and NuLabour in the past then there is no reason why they should not vote for NuTories under Cameron. Both parties have moved to the centre ground in British politics and there is essentially little difference now in their respective policies AND the Tories have a relatively clean record under Cameron. The Tories need to address Scottish grievances,tackle the Independence debate head on and lay to rest some of the old caricatures that taint voters(esp in Scotland)perceptions. I am not a Party man but from a Unionist perspective Tory is best!
And Cameron is half Scots!
16

Melly,

Sussex 06/04/2008 11:50:58
#1
You speak a load of crap. Virtually every English person we know down here have some gripe or other about us. You wouldn`t believe the comments we have to take at work and in the pub from seemingly well educated and well read people. If you don`t know about a subject don`t make purile comments.
17

eric,

06/04/2008 12:05:34
18 I agree .My family down south get it in the neck a lot now in the nicest way by work mates and in the nastiest when out in a bar etc,It goes across the board from academics to little britain types!
18

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 06/04/2008 12:20:17
~2 and #18, I am scottish and have lived in England for many years so kind of know what I am talking about. I guess if you are having problems...

By the way, there is a lovely book called 'bloody foriegners' which covers the waves of migration to England that makes the basic point I have. Basically, it found and numerous genetic studies have confirmed that England is diverse. Where race is an issue, class lurks not far behind as the real problem. The way history used to be taught in England was a problem, traditional history air brushes out in comers. To see how welcoming the English are, you just have to see how the Gurkhas have been welcomed in Kent.

I have found the most racist attitudes in Scotland - I put it down to insularity and lack of genetic diversity, and used to be more worried about my personal safety visiting relatives in Edinburgh than when I went anywhere I went in England.
19

Calum Crubag,

06/04/2008 12:23:25
YOung Tory/ New Labour... de an diofar?
20

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 12:41:45
The anti-Scottishness that is so prevelant in English society will tear the union apart.
I remember completely losing my temper at a women from Liverpool commenting that: "I'm sick of my tax money going to you Scots!". Excuse me?!? Is this the same Liverpool thta has more unemployment, crime and drug use than any other city in the UK?!!? The same one that absorbs about 140% of its tax contributions??!?
How dare she!
21

Viewfromwales,

Abertawe 06/04/2008 13:22:50
Lets hope he's right!
22

eric,

06/04/2008 13:28:42
Well look at the campaign for london mayor.Leaflets flying around Chop jock -vote English ,And other one with tartan balaclavas save London taxes from scots.
23

bumpkin,

06/04/2008 13:53:12
Once scotland gets independence, both the scots and the english might treat each other with more respect.
Unfortunately, once scotland gets all the oil revenue of about£20 billion annually, our budget will be in surplus, and the english deficit, currently £35 billion, will be much larger.
24

TerryH,

England 06/04/2008 14:00:42
#1 You should get out more, you really don't know what you're talking about.

If this isn't a good enough reason to vote Tory, I don't know what is. However, don't vote Tory in Scotland (not that you would), they'll take it as a renewed sense of unionism, so vote SNP!
25

snecked,

Argyll 06/04/2008 15:06:59
The Union is dead but will take an long and untidy time being buried if those who selflishly and foolishly stand in the way of history are allowed to do so.
It should be understood in England that Labour is polling around the 28% mark in Scotland at the moment so any notion that the Scots are in love with Labour should be discounted. In fact a substantial proportion of traditional Labour support now HATES Nulabour with a passion. A Tory victory in the next UK election - a racing certainty, get your money on now - will have the effect however of removing the last clinging on of Labour power which infests all public bodies, quangos and local authorities in Scotland and which is creating mischief wherever it can.
There is huge vested interest in the Scottish media and in all the quasi government bodies in the state which the SNP has inherited but like all vested interest its own interest is paramount. Look out for the damn breaking and the first to cross the floor when it beomes even more obvious that Brown can't win and that Scottish Labour led by the sorry Wendy Alexander is dead in the water.
We will know the SNP and Independence is finally coming when we see the chancers walking towards us.

We know however that there are honest men and women in all the three unionist parties in Scotland. Are there any brave ones,however? The hand of friendship is always offered by the SNP, a freedom movement that never has so much as even lifted a stone in violence - - and that is especially true to our neighbours and friends in England. We will both be much happier after Scotland is independent
26

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 06/04/2008 15:09:18
#26, read #19, I do!
27

antifa,

06/04/2008 15:35:32
Bumpkin - like you I support independence but I do so with my eyes open: things will be better but it's stupid to imagine things will be so easy. In your comment, you exaggerate oil revenues and assume that the full £35bn deficit will fall to England exclusively. That's neither honest nor intelligent.

And I find your leer a bit unattractive frankly: it's the Bosnian Serb mentality that lies within the soul of many grass-roots nationalists.

In UK terms the £12bn that oil generates for the Treasury is a drop in the Ocean. The idea that England wants to keep Scotland because of North Sea oil is risible.

In fact, it is abundantly clear that the English establishment sees losing Scotland as a price well worth paying to get rid of Labour for a generation(just have a look at the Telegraph).

Meanwhile, I find the endless chit-chatter over oil revenues a bit complacent: we'll need to do far more than pump oil out of the ground to make the Scottish economy successful.


28

Sanny,

Glasgow 06/04/2008 15:37:28
Until the SNP won the last Scottish election there was little said in the South or Westminster about Scottish Independence. The aspirations of the “thinking Scot” for an Independent country were ignored or worse laughed at. The attitude was that the Scots had always and would always vote Labour. After all it was Scotland that gave birth the Labour Party. The SNP were simply a protest vote or a group of Scottish romanticists.

A combination of events has now removed the scales from the eyes of the Scots. The publishing of the McCrone report after being hidden as a secret document for thirty years, has shown that both the Tory and Labour Administrations had colluded in deliberately keeping the Scots in the dark and even lied to rob our country of its resources. Mr. Blair tried to shift the marine boundaries to encompass and thereby steal part of the oil fields for England. Mrs Thatcher illegally repealed the Scotland Act when she came to power. It was only when the Council of Europe threatened the Westminster Government with severe sanctions that Tony Blair agreed to the devolved parliament but even then he tried to avoid it. I could go on but I would fill this entire column.

As I said these and similar events have opened the eyes of the Scots to how they have been kept under the cosh by lies. May last year we took our first tentative step to move away from the Labour Party, so many had been brought up to believe was the only party for the working man. Now they have seen a Scottish Centric government that owes no allegiance to the London Centric Party’s act solely on behalf of Scotland and despite constant attack form every quarter of the Old Guard it nonetheless succeeds where its predecessors failed.

Our confidence is growing and we are marking slights on our nation made by Westminster Party's and their Northern Branches. Come the next Westminster election the LD’s and the NuLab will go the way of the Tories before them. Come the Holyrood elections, then de
29

Sanny,

Glasgow 06/04/2008 15:51:18
29 antifa,
I think you my friend need a little education in economics and in particular Scottish Economics. You so obviously are unaware of Scotland’s abundant resources, both material and intellectual.

On the finance side I recommend you study a Paper by Niall Aslen entitled “The Great Deception”. It’s readily available on the net. Niall exposes the lies perpetrated on the public both North and South of the border. The lies that indicated Scotland was an economic basket case dependent on handouts from England. It is this latter lie that has back-fired on the establishment resulting in England demanding a cessation of the non-existent hand-outs and to be independent of Scotland.

As someone who worked for 25 years in the oil industry, until I retired, I can tell you that you are talking rot.
30

bumpkin,

06/04/2008 16:14:25
Antifa, as the uk deficit is currently £45 billion and rising, i have already deducted £10 billion ie scotlands share. Your figure of £12 bln for oil revenues was correct 2 yrs ago when oil was $45/ barrel. Today it is $105/barrel. This makes my calculation spot on with scotland£10bln in surplus, and england £65 bln in deficit.
If england doesnt want scotland for its oil ($200/barrel by 2010), it must be for our water.
31

antifa,

06/04/2008 16:40:55
32 - If you're going to cite figures which differ from those around in the mainstream, you should provide a source.

Anyway, whatever the price of oil, the point is, England doesn't want us (have a look at London's right-wing press for evidence).

Labour does want us: but it's our votes they're interested in, not our commodities - see Des Browne's outburst in another article.

On your Scotland will be $10bn in surplus claim, like I said: it would be nice if it was that easy, but I'm afraid it isn't. What oil adds the absence of fiscal flows from the south will take away.
32

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 17:11:41
#32
I'm afraid that's incorrect, I wrote a report on Scotland's medium term outlook and if the UK was to split Scotland would be running a budget deficit of around 2.5-3bn (allowing for variances in oil production and price). North Sea oil production peaked in 1999 and has been declining marginally year on year. Where Scotland's real economic prospects lie are in renewables but we need to invest in these now rather than later.
33

,

06/04/2008 17:33:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

bumpkin,

06/04/2008 17:55:59
33 and 34, ok so if i am wrong and we run a deficit of 2 -3 billion , we will still be better off than england with a £65 billion deficit.
Oil may have peaked in 99 when it was worth about $12 /barrel, but today the price is nearly ten times that.
The oil that is left will generate ten times the revenue of the oil that has gone, maybe more.
Production may have peaked, but revenue will continue to rise for the forseeable future.
35

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 18:07:17
#36
Well naturally if the UK split up we would have to take on Scotland's share of UK debt which is about 5bn, thus we would be much worse of per/ head than England. In addition, I wouldn't expect crude oil prices to increase much further than their current levels: Geo-political concerns, resumed production in M.East, the new oil fields in Canada (3rd biggest in the world) are set to begin production in the next year and a decrease in rogue OPEC behavior are all expected. Although China, India, Brazil etc continue to increase demand, UK oil produciton will have become unprofitable in about 2040-2060 (Reuters). It's naive to think this 'black gold' is going to make up for our outgoings.
36

bumpkin,

06/04/2008 18:29:07
37 , When did you write this report?
Oil is on a one way ticket upwards, due to indian/chinese demand. If scottish oil production is uneconomic by 2040, i will be very surprised.
By 2040, england will be bankrupt and will be calling in the IMF.
It was only the discovery of scottish oil in the seventies that prevented britain going bankrupt then.
37

Matt there,

somewhere 06/04/2008 18:48:33
Scotindy, Leslie Clark might be from Scotland.

And -living in England of Scottish and Welsh stock- I think that the problem is not that the government is made up of Scottish people but that it is THESE PARTICULAR Scottish people. I mean, how popular is Gordon Brown and co in Scotland?
38

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 06/04/2008 18:48:36
#38
In January of this year, read this report also: http://www.peakoil.net/Publications/06_Analysis_of_UK_oil_production.pdf. Paints a bleak outlook for UK, in addition, European and World supplies are declining 3% p/year. (Vidal, 2005).
39

snecked,

Argyll 06/04/2008 19:45:35
The SNP Government is setting about improving Scottish economic performance as the utterly incompetent management of the Scottish economy for nearly fifty years (in which most of its industry has been moved south) has left Scotland far behind most small nations in Europe.
This is the "Union Dividend."
The SNP just won an election on a detailed manifesto without saying anything about Scottish Oil in fact but every Scot knows that Oil has made Norway the richest and best provided for country in the world so the sort of complicated nonsense that Stu is coming up with no longer has any effect.
The fact is that the UK per capita deficit is much higher than the Scottish per capita deficit which, if some of the eeijits you meet on these sites are to be consistent, should be used to argue that the UK cannot be independent.
The fact is that Scottish Oil ,now at record prices and only going up, would make an independent Scotland the richest country in the world. It is also a fact - from no less a spokesperson than former Chancellor Dennis Healy - that UK would have gone bankrupt in the seventies without Scottish Oil.
However nearly every small country in the developed world, most without oil,is better off and better run that Scotland and that is our target. The oil is the cream.
Unless of course, like most unionist drones, you believe that Independence is a scary concept because the Scots are the stupidist people in Europe.
If they hang about much longer they might deserve that title!
But the bottom line is that there is NO economic arguement for or against Independence. ANY COUNTRY CAN BE INDEPENDENT. NATIONAL SUCCESS IS DETERMINED BY WHAT ECONOMIC ADVANCE IS ACHIEVED BY THE USE OF ECONOMIC INGENUITY USING WHATEVER TOOLS AND ASSETS YOU FIND YOURSELF WITH.
And the fact is that in this contest the wee countries do immeasurably better than the big, sluggish ones.
40

Hamish Scott,

06/04/2008 20:09:43
The next Westminster Government will be Tory, it's just a question of whether it will be a Labour or Conservative one. I like the sound of this Scottish Conservative, acknowledging that Scotland can prosper independently but preferring union. I can respect that, what I can't respect is people who run Scotland down. The Scots as subsidy-junkies propaganda has backfired spectacularly and by stoking disaffection for Scots and the Union in England could actually be the making of the end of the Union.
41

Stu_R_20,

06/04/2008 20:21:24
#41
What complicated nonsense do I refer to? These are economic facts, I'm not entering the unionist vs nat debate, that's a different kettle of fish. You are right however about the gross mismanagement of the Scottish economy and the only way in which to fix this is to have fully devolved fiscal and monetary policy.
42

snecked,

Argyll 06/04/2008 21:32:30
Fully devolved fiscal and monetary policy is independence. You cannot have partial fiscal autonomy. It's an absolute.
If a Scotland with fiscal and monetary autonomy (ie independence) wishes FREELY to enter into some other federalist arrangement with other parts of the British Isles to share a degree of sovereignty in some area or other ie the crown, shared telecommunications, shared defence spending (no thank you) or whatever that is a different matter. That, by the way, is the only way the LibDeads will arrive at any sort of federalism but I have to say a federation in which one part is 10 times bigger than all the rest put together is an unlikely prospect and rather sums up the total disassociation of the LibDeads from any coherent and thought-through propositions on anything.
43

snecked,

Argyll 06/04/2008 22:58:47
Fully devolved fiscal and monetary policy is independence. You cannot have partial fiscal autonomy. It's an absolute.
If a Scotland with fiscal and monetary autonomy (ie independence) wishes FREELY to enter into some other federalist arrangement with other parts of the British Isles to share a degree of sovereignty in some area or other ie the crown, shared telecommunications, shared defence spending (no thank you) or whatever that is a different matter. That, by the way, is the only way the LibDeads will arrive at any sort of federalism but I have to say a federation in which one part is 10 times bigger than all the rest put together is an unlikely prospect and rather sums up the total disassociation of the LibDeads from any coherent and thought-through propositions on anything.
44

bumpkin,

06/04/2008 23:20:27
Stu, i agree that the oil is running out,but as the quantity declines, the price will rise accordingly, so we are assured of revenue for a long time yet.
More oil will yet be found in the atlantic.
45

henrymanchester,

UK 07/04/2008 01:00:23
Sorry to have to point this out to you, but most of us English have been ethnically cleansed by "new Labour" and live abroad.

There's just not enough of us left in England to take much notice of the union anymore....

You want independence? Take it. You want to stay in the Union? Do so.

Either way won't make much difference to us, we're already dead and buried.
46

pwd,

Hawick 07/04/2008 09:45:46
* 6

Please stop using that foreign language. The language of my country (Scotland) is English.
47

Auckland Arab,

07/04/2008 11:25:03
Broon is oot on his erse at the next election and he knows it. The question for all Scots is do you want to be run by a Tory English parliament that has very little support (or MPs) in Scotland?
48

Saoghal Beag,

07/04/2008 12:23:38
48 whit passes fir english in Hoik i mare liker girns an grunts. Frae anither borderer, the leid o ma land is Scots, Gaidhlig and English.
49

Saoghal Beag,

07/04/2008 12:36:49
48 whit passes fir english in Hoik i mare liker girns an grunts. Frae anither borderer, the leid o ma land is Scots, Gaidhlig and English.
50

Maurice,

Fife 07/04/2008 12:58:35
1 Robbierunciman,Romney Marsh "Those that grumble are not representative of the open nature of 'Englishness' over the past few centuries." Cummon, thats what the English are renowned for doing best. Hence the title in a number or countries: The whinging Poms
51

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 07/04/2008 15:22:50
Of course there is some anti Scots feelings in England ,but I know also there is anti English feelings in Scotland it has always been so and I cannot see a total end in times to come.
There are many reasons for this but the latest and perhaps the most serious contribution was made by the Labour Party in giving devolution and their own parliament/assembly to the other UK nations and denying the English the same choice by not having a referendum. You just cannot have a "United" Kingdom with sort of bias and is bound to lead to envy and antagonism towards the beneficeries of such preferential treatment.
I do agree the Union is dead and kept alive only by egotistic politicians. We can all be independent and successful given the opportunity.
52

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 04/05/2008 20:53:11
#46 Bumpkin

Re. N. Sea reserves:

"Reserves have been declining generally since the late 1970s, but the sharp decline of discovery in the 1990s has accelerated the rate of decline. Today, about two-thirds of UK’s total endowment of oil (20 Billion Barrel) has been already consumed. About one third (11 Billion Barrel) is left for future production. Extrapolation of the cumulative discoveries leads to the conclusion that about one billion barrel are yet to find. Future reserve reassessments might increase the numbers somewhat. This will result in a slight increase of absolute figures, but will not change the discovery pattern and certainly will not increase the potential for future discoveries."
53

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/05/2008 23:41:52
# 39
Gordon Brown is cast in the same light as The Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander. The word I'm looking for is DISTAIN.INDEPENDENCE IS AT THE DOOR AND IS RINGING THE BELL, let's open that door and say goodbye to the union.

 

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