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Cameron sounds nuclear warning

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Published Date: 28 June 2009
DAVID Cameron has warned Alex Salmond that Westminster must be able to decide on the shape of Britain's nuclear deterrent and defence "without the Scottish Government trying to obstruct them".

The Conservative leader, widely expected to be elected prime minister within a year, insists today that Holyrood should not interfere on the UK Government's mandate on defending the country.

But Salmond hit back, arguing that as First Minister he has every right to fight against a new generation of Trident missiles being housed in Scotland, particularly when polls have shown opposition north of the Border to the plans.

The First Minister has set up an anti-Trident working group which will examine ways to block the new generation of Scottish-based missiles

The exchange, which forms part of a special BBC Scotland show marking a decade of devolution this evening, offers an insight into what may become the most contentious flashpoint between Edinburgh and London in the next few years.

The Conservatives back Labour plans to replace the current Trident system. Ministry of Defence sources say the project could cost up to £65 billion over 30 years, although the SNP put the cost at more like £100bn.

But Salmond has said he does not want the new system housed in Faslane in the west of Scotland, where this generation of Trident subs are based.

Cameron has previously said he would "respect" Scotland. But in his interview today he points out that he expects "respect" in return. "Defence is a United Kingdom issue," he says. " I respect the ability of the Scottish Minister and the Scottish Parliament to say, right, on tuition fees, or prescription drugs or whatever, we take a different view. But likewise ... if a government in Westminster has a mandate to deliver issues to do with nuclear deterrence or the size of the army, then they should be able to do that without the Scottish Government trying to obstruct them."

SNP officials point out that with the Scottish Parliament and Scottish MPs at Westminster opposing a new generation of Trident, there is no mandate for the missiles to be housed on Scottish soil. Speaking on the same programme, Salmond says: "It is like me saying, 'Well, I'll tell you what we'll go and, we'll go and sink all of Scotland's carbon dioxide in the Thames but we won't bother consulting David Cameron.' If the argument is to treat Scotland with respect then it must be translated into more than rhetoric, it must be reflected in deeds."

Asked whether he will roll over on the nuclear issue, Salmond replies: "I am not a rolling over sort of person."

Cameron also admits in his interview that the Conservatives were wrong not to act on calls for devolution in the 1990s.

He said: "We should have spent more time in government thinking, how do we give legitimate help to those people within our United Kingdom, who want to have a greater expression of self-government."

Both interviews, as well as one with former prime minister Tony Blair, were conducted for the documentary, Holyrood And The Search For Scotland's Soul, to be broadcast on BBC1 Scotland at 10.20pm today, and for a Panorama special on devolution in Scotland on BBC1 tomorrow at 8.30pm.


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  • Last Updated: 28 June 2009 12:52 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Jerry Springer,

27/06/2009 23:12:22
The First Minister has set up an anti-Trident working group which will examine ways to block the new generation of Scottish-based missiles.
=======================================================

You have to hand it to Alex Salmond.

He will go to any lengths and waste any amount of taxpayers money to leave Scotland defenceless whilst at the same time consign 11,000 Scottish jobs to the dustbin.

All for the sake of getting 'one up' on Westminster.

He should hang his head in shame.
2

Castaway™ ,

28/06/2009 00:13:28
The Scottish Parliament voted against the replacement the Trident nuclear missile system.
The vote saw 71 MSPs vote against the plan while only 16 voted for the plan, while 39 MSPs abstained. 15 June 2007

The Scottish Parliament has rejected Trident's replacement - The Scottish Government and Parliament may not have the constitutional right of decision on such policies, but they have the unquestionable right, and indeed duty, to express themselves on any issue that concerns the welfare of the people and land of Scotland and where possible the Scottish Government to take any appropriate measures (all legal means) to carry out the will of the Scottish Parliament.
3

DialMforMurdoX,

28/06/2009 00:17:01
You have to hand it to Alex Salmond.

He will go to any lengths to save taxpayers countless billions on a never to be used, unsafe, operated by a foreign government weapon of mass destruction.
4

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28/06/2009 00:22:06
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5

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28/06/2009 00:23:04
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6

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 00:26:23
#5

Yes 11,000 jobs would go.

That is what Salmond wants, Trident out and 11,000 people on the scrap heap.

Political ideologies a higher priority than real people once again by the SNP.

Repeat 11,000 jobs would go.
7

Fitba Krazy,

28/06/2009 00:26:31
Scotland and England being equal partners in a Union means that they BOTH have to agree if one wishes to site it's dangerous tools of war on it's neighbouring equal partners land.

Since this Cameron fellow seems to be insisting on sighting England's(America's) defence system on Scottish territory despite the wishes of the Scottish people AND the Scottish Government, one would have to conclude that this is not equitable and therefore is an attempted breach of Scottish democracy.

Not for the first time either, eh David C?
8

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 28/06/2009 00:28:01
m foot of labour-anti nukes,labour supported CND when maggie was PM,what if site the weapons in london,kent and other places in england?
why must the scottish people put up with being told nukes are best
if 1 nuke is fired in anger,retaliation will follow,result no bloody planet worth living on
the usa and ussr knew this ,a no win situation
why must the clyde be polluted with radioactive rubbish
rosyth is radio active ,from the rotting hulks of nuke subs
if its all so safe ,a few silos could be put in hyde park,hampstead heath etc
if all nukes are in scotland,and world war 3 broke out,the targets would be all in scotland ,and westminster,and the listening post targets in england
keep your nukes,i will one day die,but i as sure as hell dont want to fry
9

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/06/2009 00:30:54
The SP has voted against Trident.

The majority of Scottish Westminster MPs voted against Trident.

It would appear that, yet again, Westminster is prepared to ride roughshod over the democratically expressed will of Scotland.

Do we really want Westminster "democracy"?
10

Alan B,

28/06/2009 00:31:02
Cameron does not seem to have any vision to counter the snp in coming up with a constitutional settlement for scotland.

He says the tories were wrong to ignore scotlands voice for devolution.

Why then is he apparently ignoring the calls now for significant more powers for a the scottish parliament which is apparently wanted by more that 70% rather than more the same from calman?

#Jerry lying and exaggerating the employment consequences of trident is an example of the weak unionist position. Posters like your self think your own positon on the union is so weak that lies are necessary. We have seen the same tactic of lies and misrepresentation from labour and is why we cannot believe a word they say.

11

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28/06/2009 00:31:16
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12

DialMforMurdoX,

28/06/2009 00:32:45
#4 English Voice? More dribbling old bean. You've rather let your Hamilton residency slip with that comment, next you'll be mentioning posturing mountebanks.

#6 Kindly tell us where these 11,000 souls currently work?
13

Alan B,

28/06/2009 00:34:46
#Jerry

Spending lots of money on defence may or may not be good or necessary for out defence.

But one thing is certain spending lots of money on defence is economically damaging.


There is a reason why germany and japan did so well economically compared to the US and UK during the cold war as they were limited to defence spending no more than 1% of gdp while the uk was spending something over 4%.
14

Tris,

28/06/2009 00:35:05
Quite apart from Cameron and Salmond having their spat about which one of them has what rights....
... can anyone tell me how this broke wee country can possibly afford the estimated £20 billion (for which, based on previous experience of military contracts, read £60 billion) for a weapon which is suitable for fighting the cold war with the USSR, when there isn't any money for proper protection for troops fighting the actual rather hot war in Afghanistan?

Labour in Scotland don't want it. Ordinary people don't want it. As I understand it we don't even have the codes to use it. We have to get them from the USA, and can only use it with their approval. Put another way, we have to pay for an adjunct to their military which is of no use to us, except that it keeps us at the top table in the UN, and by extention keeps the PM of the UK looking like he matters in the world.

What vanity.

Has Cameron been doing Euromillions on our behalf and winning the jackpot every week for the last 10 years?

15

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28/06/2009 00:36:09
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16

DialMforMurdoX,

28/06/2009 00:40:44
#15 Harpo. Stop it the use of facts is not allowed. You'll cause poor Rufus 2 Springer to erupt in a bout of apoplexy
17

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28/06/2009 00:42:46
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18

Alan B,

28/06/2009 00:43:50
#Harpo

Why would we want to be rich and independent when we can be poor and in the union.
19

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28/06/2009 00:45:47
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20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 00:47:42

I do not like saying it, and I know it will annoy Jerry Springer, But on this occasion, I think Salmond is correct!
More the likes, unlike the cigarette's, if we have "nuclear deterrent", 'hiding_under_the_bunker', it makes us a Target!




21

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28/06/2009 00:48:02
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22

lachlan,

28/06/2009 00:50:31
what is the point in the u.k.having its own nuclear deterrent?just who would we use it against without the e.u. and u.s.also being involved?as e.u. counties gets closer surely a joint europe approach would be more cost effective.
23

Alan B,

28/06/2009 00:50:36
Only labour can remove nuclear weapons from scottish soil.

After the tories win the next election and labour revert in scotland to being anti nuclear the return of the feable 50 means that they can promise to get rid of nuclear in scotland after returning to power after another 17yrs of tory rule. So by 2027 labour will be in a position to break its promise and keep nuclear again.
24

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28/06/2009 00:52:00
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25

Castaway™ ,

28/06/2009 00:53:25
#1: I agree with #5 Harpo - no way would 11,000 jobs go. More lies, misinformation.
#1/#6 Now give a breakdown on these 11,000 jobs which would go ?
26

Alan B,

28/06/2009 00:53:44
#lachlan

The uk needs a nuclear deterrent to support the vanity of the blairs and browns of our political establishment.

27

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 28/06/2009 00:55:39
who all thinks that #1 is really that lazy gorging cash hound
Lord George Foulkes
he who sits and phones this paper and tells the editors who to ban because they tell the truth against him and labour
jerry rufus etc etc has said things which others have been booted yet he sits here day after day lying
remember jerry satan has a sharp pitchfork for lying people,boy is your rear going to hurt
28

Alan B,

28/06/2009 00:57:42
#Harpo

Your fiscal analysis overlooks that if scotland was independent and improved our poor life expentency levels we would have to fund more pensions. As such the union improves our fiscal position by ensuring we die young.
29

Brianwci,

28/06/2009 00:58:45
Harpo #s 15, 17, 20, 22

Harpo, on behalf of British Nationalists everywhere I must protest at the introduction of FACTS into the anti Scottish Independence argument.

You know perfectly well they only confuse the issue. Disinformation is one thing but FACTS are quite another. Typical Scotch ungentlemanly behaviour. You have no breeding sir, none whatsoever.

Why can't you be like the good Lord Foulkes and play the game sir, play the game.

Yours Disgustedly
Colonel and Lady Colonel Montgomerie, Smythe, Fitzsimmons Piggot
Tunbridge Wells
30

Brianwci,

28/06/2009 01:02:38
Cameron will find out that Eton and Oxford bluster doesn't wash with St Andrews, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen educated Scottish leaders.
31

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 01:14:50

Salmond is giving the Scottish Peoples view on this matter, The Man is Correct!

WE_DO_NOT_WANT_THIS_ON_OUR_DOORSTEP!


32

Brianwci,

28/06/2009 01:17:48
Cameron sounds nuclear warning

or, as the BBC says: Cameron WARNS SNP

Cameron WARNS SNP????

Mr C need to be reminded that this is the SNP GOVERNMENT of Scotland, not some English colony.....much as he would like to see to us as that.

Mr C, if you want Trident, take it, we don't want it in our waters.
33

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 01:26:44
Leaving aside the matter of the WMD - which is surely settled in the minds of all sane people anyway - who the hell does Cameron thinks he is, telling the elected head of our government that he has no right to represent the interests of the people of this country? Does this fool fondly imagine such arrogant presumption will endear him to the Scottish electorate?
34

oder,

Scotland 28/06/2009 01:39:08
The missiles on Trident based in Scotland will fly just as well from Trident based in England, there is no reason why you cant keep Trident in England and keep all the pro lobby happy! that way you are showing your "respect" for the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland! and who knows! you might actually improve relations with Holyrood something that can be a first for a Prime Minister!perhaps that will also improve tory standing a little bit in Scotland.

Be Bold and be different!
35

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 28/06/2009 01:41:56
The entire Cold War thingy was just a wee distraction dreamed up by our illuminati masters to distract us from what they were doing to control the world. The US and the USSR are perfectly amiable to one another and always have been. The banksters funded the Russian revolution in revenge for the Czar spoiling one of their false treaty schemes. They also funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power and rearmament, they abandoned him when it became obvious that he was a mad loser.
Building and maintaining incredibly expensive weapons systems is just another waste of OUR money that helps keep un indebted to the banksters. Google 'John Harris' and see what he has to say about our true situation. It's pretty grim.
36

Willie Mor,

28/06/2009 01:48:51
# 15

You don't get it do you.!

If Cameron decides that he wants to locate nuclear weapons in Scotland Colony then nuclear weapons get placed in Scotland Colony.

Same goes for the dumping of nuclear waste from power stations.

Salmond had better understand this!
37

Edward,

28/06/2009 01:50:33
#6
What 11,000jobs?
There are no '11,000jobs'directly involved in Faslane
Thisis a figure conjured up by Labour as a scare tactic
38

Edward,

28/06/2009 01:54:06
Obviously David Cameron had not read the Times
article on June 20th 'Defence cuts may put Trident replacement plan on scrapheap'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6536097.ece
39

Edward,

28/06/2009 01:59:11
It is most likely Trident will be cut back or scrapped alltogether under the combined influences of rampant debt that the Tories will have to deal with as well as the newambitions of President Obama to cut back on Nuclear weapons
Not only Trident heading for the scrapheap but the new carriers planned to be built are also targetted for review and likely scrapping as well
If that happens, then there goes the main plank of arguement of Labours for Scotland remaining in the Union
40

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 28/06/2009 02:03:42
Please remember that these comments from Cameron are really for the Panorama programme on Monday. 90% of the viewers of that programme will be from England, so I'm sure Dave has calculated that, on the whole, it will show the PM-in-waiting putting the greedy and selfish Scots in their place. More votes for Dave.
41

Sneckie Boy,

Highlands 28/06/2009 02:07:42
So Cameron follows in the footsteps of Thatcher to burden us with things we have positively voted against! And if he loses his sole Scottish MP, how then would he justify the imposition of the nuclear millstone on a country where they have no democratic mandate? And still Westminster can't see the irony of the West Lothian question? Ah well, bring on the election.
42

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 02:45:40
So having very publicly announced that the Tories got it wrong on Devolution, that they opposed constitutional change that was clearly supported by the majority of Scottish voters, David Cameron now tells those same Scottish voters to keep their views to themselves and not rock the boat. Despite the fact that the majority of Scottish voters when polled are against Trident, and that the Holyrood parliament voted against it, we are to swallow not only our pride but our principles and do as we're told by Cameron (even though he's only the opposition leader).

In short, the Scottish Government is to know its place. Westminster carries the day. If you express a view on politics at all in Scotland you'd better make sure it echoes with the Westminster point of view as espoused by Mr Cameron or, even, Mr Brown. To hold a view that does not chime with theirs, even if it is the view of the Scottish Parliament (though Iain Gray will soon abandon it in the hope he might win some votes), to hold such a view is to be in opposition to devolution. Devolution is about doing as you are told within the rules laid down by Westminster. I seem to recall Labour voted against Trident.

Whatever. The real issue is that if Scots want to decide their own military future within Europe, they can't. Labour and the Tories have seen to that.
43

Castaway™ ,

28/06/2009 03:01:51
#6. Trident: Scotland
21 July 2008 - Ms Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the number of civilian jobs in Scotland dependent on the Trident programme; what the locations are of those jobs; and how many there are at each site.
Des Browne: The latest available figure for civilian jobs that directly rely upon the Trident programme in Scotland is 859, as at December 2006. It was estimated at that point that there were a further 250 indirect civilian jobs based on employment relating to support activities to the Trident programme.
The 859 direct jobs are broken down by location as follows......
Location --------------------------- Number
HM Naval Base Clyde (Faslane) 48
Royal Navy Armament Depot Coulport 541
Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment 270
Total 859
http://tinyurl.com/cdqq2s

Cancelling Trident: the Economic and Employment
Consequences for Scotland
Report Commissioned by the Scottish CND and the Scottish TUC
2 June 2006 - 859 civilian jobs directly dependent on Trident would become redundant between 2022 and 2027.
http://tinyurl.com/lv63n2
44

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28/06/2009 03:29:58
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28/06/2009 03:30:37
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28/06/2009 03:31:40
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28/06/2009 03:32:43
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48

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 28/06/2009 04:28:00
Can you tell me why this BBC ripoff company, cannot broadcast this in england???????????????????
49

mark mccann,

Does it matter? 28/06/2009 05:14:15
Harpo, where the heck have you been?

I've been an avid reader and sometime poster of this rag since devolution and your the first one to come up with brilliant, succinct, pertinant facts that blow this unionist bile out of the water.

No disrespect to the other posters out there, we all know the truth but we haven't managed to collate such great statistics and facts that back up our arguments.

Can you now please tell everybody whether we would get a per capita or geographic share of our vast oil wealth? Just another wee elephant that everybody seems to ignore!

Thank you Harpo, keep up the good work, you made my morning.
50

mark mccann,

Guffyland 28/06/2009 05:20:55
Scotindy, you can watch this in England, just switch to BBC Scotland on your freeview box. Although if your in LA, I don't suppose it matters! If you like I'll tell you how it went!
51

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

28/06/2009 06:00:44
Well, once again the message is clear. Get back in your place, go and find something to do, nice and quietly; don't disturb the grown-ups while they are talking (in Westmincer).

There now, that's a good lad. Go to your room, Alex. If you would like to, Master Salmond, you may go and play in the yard while we have an adults' discussion.
52

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28/06/2009 06:07:56
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28/06/2009 06:09:50
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28/06/2009 06:10:21
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28/06/2009 06:13:27
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56

Forward not Back,

28/06/2009 06:35:47
If Cameron can find the money to fund Trident of course. He is posturing for no apparent reason.
57

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 06:39:17
Cameron's posturing could all be bluster if the article today in the Observer is to be believed.
UKPLC is so skint it would appear we cannot afford to have this white elephant project anyway.

It also looks likely that the aircraft carriers are sunk ,so to speak.
The Type 45 Frigates are also in danger.

That will remove the main plank of Labour in the up coming GE in Scotland.

so it is imperative that resources are now switched to building ships that will be of use to the soon to be Independent Scotland.
No union dividend for the Clyde ,
58

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 28/06/2009 06:40:23
Cameron pledges a new relationship based on mutual respect and plants his foot directly on the nuclear landmine.

The people of Scotland have a stark choice before them at the next general election and the following Scottish Election.

Another generation of Tory Policies shoved down your throats with out them having any mandate to rule in Scotland or Independence.

A Vote for Labour or the LibDems is in fact a vote for Tory rule.

If you don't like the Tories policies your only hope is to vote SNP.


59

ubinworryinmasheep,

out in the field 28/06/2009 06:41:46
11,000 jobs... i had the figure around 900 and that was before i read some ot the other posts. This is how it is with nuclear weapons ... they are not a deterrent. In WWII when the Americans used the bomb to force the Japanese surrender, the Japanese didnt have the same weapon to fight back. So what happens now if say the Chinese or Russians decide to comence a land war. What would the Americans do then ... they would have to fight just like both other world wars and you couldnt try to end it with nuclear strikes as that would just be the end for both sides ....no winners.
60

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 06:49:30
If evil despotic foreign(non-EU) Imperialists decide to invade the UK...They will apply for student visas and slip under the radar or parachute in disguised as asylum seekers.

What does Cameron intend to do about it?

Nuke the British Embassies and intern all our politicians, lawyers, police, social workers and customs staff as traitors and spies?


61

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 06:52:59
“DAVID Cameron has warned Alex Salmond that Westminster must be able to decide on the shape of Britain's nuclear deterrent and defence "without the Scottish Government trying to obstruct them".

Or what will happen?

Will they nuke Charlotte Square in retaliation?

Maybe they will impose trade sanctions against us, and stop importing our oil, gas, electricity, water, fish, beef, lamb, pharmaceuticals and whisky?

Quiver, quiver!
62

ubinworryinmasheep,

down at the duckpond 28/06/2009 06:57:16
#62 What happens if terrorists manage to smuggle a nuclear dirty bomb into the centre of London and detonate it..... who do you nuke then ? Suppose the terrorists came from Saudi...do you nuke Saudi Arabia.
63

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 07:07:49
MAD has worked for 60 years and only a total idiot would leave us without nuclear weapons in a world where the likes of North Korea and Iran are arming themselves.
64

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 28/06/2009 07:15:50
65 Mikko if MAd are such a good deterrent why did it not stop Argentina invading Falklands?
65

The Answer,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 07:18:01
Least we forget , the scots are only 8% of the UK population, and contribute only 7% of new university undergaduates.
66

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 07:18:11
65 Mikko

It seems that the vast majority of countries in the world must all be idiots then.
67

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 07:20:04
67 The Answer,

And your point is caller?
68

The Answer,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 07:29:07
#69

7% of new university undergraduates is more likely the % amount of UK tax (including 100% of oil revenue) that scotsland contributes to UK.
69

letmein,

hinterland 28/06/2009 07:29:47
Rufus is not Foulkes. He would be lying in a drunken heap at the times these posts go out.
Cameron is just a typical londoner who could not give a jot for anything scottish. Trident is a waste of space and anyone who wants it should move to londonistan and take it with them.
70

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 07:32:15

#61 ubinworryinmasheep

Who is going to start a land war with the US?

Mexico and Canada?

The USA has been at war with Cuba for forty years and North Korea for nearly sixty, China about the same and Russia for most of the last ninety, they have military has invaded more than two dozen other countries at various points in that period, they have also encouraged and financed pocket proxies to usurp power in many others and they have economically plundered and culturally assailed the rest.

The large population, physical size and remoteness of the United states, gives the Doctor Strangeloves at the Pentagon the notion that If they can get their defences up to speed...a Nuclear war is "winable".

Patsies like an "allied" Nuclear armed UK, may be a useful though expendable bulwark in these forward defences.

UK Prime Ministers who to sit at the Nuclear Poker table, delude themselves into thinking they are players...They are nothing more than a small stack of chips, sitting in front of the US Military/Industrial Complex's man.

If there is going to be a Nuclear War...Don't bet against the UK firing the first shot.
71

Tartan Bond,

28/06/2009 07:35:34
Mikko # 65

The SNP seem to think that the only way to be safe from the threat of nuclear blackmail is to surrender in advance. They have a crystal ball that tells them alone that Scotland does not need to be protected militarily.

Nobody wants Trident, but everybody wants to be protected from nuclear blackmail.
72

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 07:35:41
#64

On past form...We would nuke Afghanistan and Iraq.

But N Korea and Iran would be the favourites this time.
73

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

28/06/2009 07:40:22
Mikko,
The only reasons that the likes of North Korea or Iran would have an agendum for attacking Scotland would be;

a). To diminish The UK's (Westmincer's) defensive capacities; or

b). Due to Scotland's complicity with Westmincer in the oppression that they have wrought on the middle-east and Asia - (we Scots aren't the only historical victims of English imperial tyranny).

The solution to both problems - Independence.
74

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 07:48:54
70 The Answer,


“7% of new university undergraduates is more likely the % amount of UK tax (including 100% of oil revenue) that scotsland contributes to UK.”



I do not think that either arithmetic or spelling is your strong subject.


An estimate of the fiscal position is available from the GERS report published annually.


Your 7% estimate is wrong by a factor of only 43%.

75

Tartan Bond,

28/06/2009 07:58:17
The Col. of Monte Cristo # 74

When did we "nuke" either of those two states?

What alternative reality do clowns like you live in?
76

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/06/2009 07:58:50
Jobs that would leave Scotland if trident was taken away from Faslane. At the moment the RN is having massive difficulty justifying 3 bases, with the detterent leaving Faslane they would run down or shut the base. RN jobs, 7 SSBN crews 1120, 8 SRMH crews 460. FOST training organisation 300. The one S boat 120. MCM1 and Capt Fasflot organisation, 100. Engineering support 1500. Fleet protection group Royal Marines 400. Coulport 300. Support and secretariat staff 200. Approx 4000 service jobs. Then all the civilian jobs at Faslane, the most of the shops in garelochhead and Pubs in Helensburgh. If FPGRM is not at faslane do we need Condor in Arbroath? Numbers slightly higher than 859.
77

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 28/06/2009 07:59:05
Wee fat Eck and the tartan taliban continue to pick fights with Westminster.
It would serve him right if Westminster told him Scotland is on its own for defence.
He can then explain to the people in the Helensburgh area how his decision is good for them as they pick up their dole money.
78

The Answer,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 08:01:49
#76
If you white male and scots, there is much more a chance of you being unemployed, on incapaciy benefits, or working in the public sector, or in prison, and certainly not in unversity , when being compared to an English white man.

79

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28/06/2009 08:02:53
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80

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 08:03:37
Does anyone know the UK's procedure for fighting a Nuclear War?

We all know about the US President's man, with the briefcase containing the authorisation codes and the dual keys and Big Red Buttons.

But what about our bombs...How do we fire them?

81

Tartan Bond,

28/06/2009 08:05:00
For their own reasons, the SNP want to leave the UK defenceless.
Salmond's appointment as a Privy Councillor should be revoked, right now!
82

TWC,

exLabour 28/06/2009 08:12:01
Mr Cameron can keep his Nuclear subs at Devonport if he likes but we do not have to keep them in Scotland.

Anyway we need the money for other things now.
83

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/06/2009 08:12:36
#82

Two keys on a submarine followed by a firing trigger. Authentication codes and orders required. Missiles can be retargetted onboard.
84

,

28/06/2009 08:13:18
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85

Tartan Bond,

28/06/2009 08:15:18
TWC # 84

The location of the submarines is a red herring. In a nuclear exchange the whole of the UK will be subject to targeting and radiation.
86

donald,

glasgow 28/06/2009 08:15:42
Defence against whom? Who has done Scotland most harm?
87

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 28/06/2009 08:18:39
79 Nob dican

Wee fat Eck and the tartan taliban continue to pick fights with Westminster.
It would serve him right if Westminster told him Scotland is on its own for defence

Obviously you are neither a history student or someone that follows current affairs.
Should cameron do this and we withdrew our forces from British army it would leave only the Ghurkas, Welsh , and Ulstermen to do Westminsters front line fighting.

johnny foreigner could enter from Dover

88

TWC,

exLabour 28/06/2009 08:19:11
87 Tartan Bond

Well those who want them in Scotland can vote Tory at the General Election those who don't can vote for Parties who do not support Trident.

It is dead simple and it will be very soon.
89

The Answer,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 08:19:15
Harpo seems to forget that the people of Devon get no benefit whatever when £9 billion of English tax was spent on the East Coast railway line from London to scotchland.
90

ubinworryinmasheep,

in the byre 28/06/2009 08:23:01
#72 I was talking about if China say decides to start invading neighbouring countries and WWIII starts up. At what point do you decide that nukes will help. They wont stop a land war in this instance all they do is stop the 'enemy' from striking you first. I agree with your point tho in that the USA is using us. The only way Iran and North Korea are arming themselves is to prevent an invasion by the good ol USA ... but considering the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts are far from finished i cant see that happening. North Korea wont do anything daft but will just test test the water to let the world know they are there.
91

The Answer,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 08:23:07
#89

You seem to have an over inflated opinion of just how important the scots are, remember your only 8% of the UK population, next you will be telling us the scots make up most of the "butchers apron" staff.
92

Tartan Bond,

28/06/2009 08:27:39
TWC # 90

I repeat, the location of the submarines is a red herring. The forthcoming election will not be about the location of nuclear submarines.
93

The Strategist,

28/06/2009 08:29:01
I would think a referendum on this topic would be appropriate.
94

Conan the Librarian™,

28/06/2009 08:29:10
86
Good morning Rufus.Has he had as many as you?
95

Conan the Librarian™,

28/06/2009 08:30:51
93
If you are the answer, it must have been a bloody stupid question.
96

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 08:31:43
#89 Scottish and Proud "johnny foreigner could enter from Dover"

He does and he brings hundreds of thousands of his mates with him every year.

In forty years there will be no recognisable England...Thank God Dame Vera won't be around to see it!

If there is a hundred of us left alive by then...we will have won.

I knew these NWO/Common Purpose/One world creeps, couldn't be ALL bad.
97

The Answer,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 08:33:05
#97
8% and dont you forget it!
98

jane shore,

london 28/06/2009 08:34:52

totally unneccessary comment 89. Have you no respect for recent injured, many fatally, serviceman in English regiments?
99

Conan the Librarian™,

28/06/2009 08:34:52
98
Good Morning Col.
89
Um...Nah I'll no bother.
100

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 08:35:55
#94 Tartan Bond - "I repeat, the location of the submarines is a red herring"

If that is so...why do we have Helicopters that lower Electronic Ears into the sea in an attempt to find them ?
101

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 08:36:38
94 Tartan Bond

It may not be wherever you are, but I can assure you it will be in Scotland.
102

Michael N,

Helensburgh 28/06/2009 08:36:40
Just wondering how much money Salmond is willing to push towards creating any form of industry in the Helensburgh area once Trident has been scrapped. I would warrant that more than 11000 livelihoods would be in jeopardy if this moron got his way.
103

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 08:39:44
#101 Morning Conan!

You weren't faking TB last night were you?
104

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 08:44:43
104 I refer you to the post from Cynicus - a few job losses do not justify hosting WMD on our soil and the people concerned can be redeployed over a period of time. The STUC who represent the trade union movement in Scotland are not going to support something which results in unacceptable job loss and yet they oppose Trident too.

I think we need to keep in mind during the course of this debate that the retired Army Generals are fairly consistent in their belief that Trident is ''useless''. Given that the Scottish Government have got a democratic mandate from both Holyrood and the Scottish bloc in Westminster to oppose ''useless'' Trident this is shaping up to be a good fight, and one that we can win.
105

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 08:45:24
#104 Michael N

But only one that you care about, eh Mike?
106

John S,

28/06/2009 08:46:33
Scottish Parliament - 14 June 2007
That the Parliament congratulates the majority of Scottish MPs for voting on 14 March 2007 to reject the replacement of Trident, recognises that decisions on matters of defence are matters within the responsibility of the UK Government and Parliament and calls on the UK Government not to go ahead at this time with the proposal in the White Paper, The Future of the United Kingdom's Nuclear Deterrent.

This was agreed.

71 MSPs voted for the motion. This included all SNP, Liberal Democrat and Greens, the 1 independent and 5 Labour (Bill Butler, Malcolm Chisholm, Marlyn Glen, Cathy Peattie and Elaine Smith). The 16 Conservative voted against. 39 Labour MSPs abstained. 3 MSPs did not vote.

UK Parliament - 14 March 2007
The majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster voted against the government plans to renew the nuclear weapons system with 15 Scottish Labour, 12 Scottish Lib Dems and 6 SNP voting against.14 March 2007
107

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 08:46:58
#75 I am happy to vote for independence but only if we keep an idependent nuclear deterrent. Crack pot nations like Iran and North Korea are real enemies and just being nice to them and offering a jar of Highland Heather honey and a bottle of single malt won't stop them bombing us if we get rid of our nukes. I any of you think otherwise you stupidly naive.
108

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 08:49:22
109 The former head of the Army does not agree with you. He thinks Trident is useless. And it's not an independent deterrant anyway.
109

qohldr,

28/06/2009 08:49:51
#89 Scottish and Proud
Should cameron do this and we withdrew our forces from British army.
Who exactly do you mean when you say "we".
110

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 08:51:10
109 Why would Iran and North Korea want to bomb Scotland ? Do tell.
111

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 08:52:38
#104 Michael N

On a more serious note.

While Scotland is in the Union the Clyde Naval base will be there for as long as the English think it should be their and not one nano-second longer.

If Independent it will be there for ever...only it will not be Trident Submarines that are berthed there.
112

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 08:55:05
Scotland got lumbered with the US Polaris deterrent in the Holy Loch for three reasons.
It could not be sited anywhere in the US without breaching their rules on keeping WMDs many miles away from centres of population.
The UK government certainly did not want it sitting upwind of London in a naval base such as Plymouth or Portsmouth, in case of accident or attack.
Scotland had no say in the matter so got lumbered with the base a score of miles from our main centre of population.
Trident is there for exactly the same reasons.
113

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 08:57:02
104 Michael N

I note at the last census the number of persons aged 16-74 in full-time employment in Helensburgh was 6,329 of which 23.61% were employed in public administration, defence and social security.

That amounts to a total of 1,494 of which defence makes up only a proportion (not identified separately).

It takes rather a large leap of imagination to see where this “loss of 11,000 jobs” emanates from.
114

Conan the Librarian™,

28/06/2009 08:57:13
113
Well said.
105
Not me, was it fun?
115

,

28/06/2009 09:01:07
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116

Faux Cul,

Unda Wunda 28/06/2009 09:02:35
Tartan Bond = SMEEEEEE 753
117

Faux Cul,

28/06/2009 09:03:06
SMEEEEEEEE 753 = Millbank Stooge
118

,

28/06/2009 09:03:46
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119

overton,

aberdeen 28/06/2009 09:04:24
112 Observer,,

Iran and North Korea wouldn't want to bomb Scotland if we've got Trident and neither would anyone else.

The deterrent works and provides work for thousands and Mr Salmond would be better placed discussing ways of creating employment rather than hammering already successful industries and defence for the sake of his narrow minded idealistic left wing policies.
120

,

28/06/2009 09:06:48
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121

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:07:20
121 You haven't answered my question. Why would Iran or North Korea want to bomb Scotland.
122

qohldr,

28/06/2009 09:07:24
If the Scottish parliament held a vote on a devolved matter that was passed and then the UK parliament held a vote on whether the Scottish parliament should go ahead with the plans from that devolved matter should the Scottish parliament then drop their plans because the UK parliament voted they should.
123

gus1940,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 09:09:48
The solution is simple:-

Planning is a devolved matter.

The SNP government policy is for a massive increase in electricity generation from renewable sources.

Give planning permission for and build a Tidal Power Generation Barrage at The Rhu Narrows.

Problem solved. - it's known as lateral thinking.
124

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:09:48
123 Observer,,Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:07:20
121 You haven't answered my question. Why would Iran or North Korea want to bomb Scotland.
=======================================================

Who knows if they would or not, but you could not completely discount it could you?
125

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:09:58
121 I'll refine my question. Right now Iran and North Korea will be well aware of Scotland as we host WMD, therefor we are a target. Given the sceanrio that we are a small independent North European country who minds it's own business why would Iran or North Korea want to bomb Scotland ?
126

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:10:42
Rufus answer #127
127

Herry Oaksters,

28/06/2009 09:10:47
121
overton,aberdeen.
Ha ha ha ,what a plank, are you related to giggity gray?
128

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/06/2009 09:13:09
#115

if you see my post at 78, I think the wording has been confused. 11,00 people will not be made redundant but a lot of jobs will leave Scotland.
129

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 09:14:37
#127 North Korea and Iran are run by fruitcakes so your question answers itself.
130

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 28/06/2009 09:17:47
Nuclear weapons will be decommissioned and dismantled when there's a global agreement on it. This is being talked about but it'll be 2010 before the public is told anything. We, the UK, also do bioterrorism and advanced electonic satellite warfare. A nuclear stockpile is as much as liability as a deterrent as means have been devised to remotely detonate it - where it sits.

However the military-industrial complex is set in its ways, and politicians of any stripe have a marginal effect on it. Our real Westminster leaders have their air-conditioned bunkers and I don't think in the UK!
131

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:18:55
Observer, you know how unpredictable world events can be. You have to look at a time line of 20 even 50 years hence.

Who knows what other countries may have nuclear weapons by then.

It is impossible to predict what the world order may be then either.
132

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:19:27
132 No it doesn't.

The reality is that by the time one nuke goes off the chances are we have all had it, as radiation doesn't stop at borders and MAD only works as long as nobody uses the bombs.

But your argument seems to be based on the premise that Iran and North Korea are going to randomly aim a bomb at Scotland - I think you need to explain why you come to that most intriguing point of view.

133

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 09:19:53
I really don't get the anti Trident argument. I guess they are the kids that always got bullied at school because they are basically gutless cowards who want to give in to any stupid playground bully. Pity that they never learned a simple lesson the rest of us learned: you don't get bullied when you stand up to bullies.
134

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

28/06/2009 09:20:12
#36 Oder,
Westmincer couldn't possibly be expected to base Trident anywhere in England, because that would mean imperilling that marvellous paragon of advanced, genteel human civilisation, the English, in the event of an accident or a hostile attack.

It isn't so consequential or poignant to any of those abhorrent t(_)rds on The Thames if we vile, repugnant Scots find ourselves in the immediate trajectory of windborne radiation, or if it happens to be a Scottish loch, croft, town or person who is vaporised at ground zero.

With all this in mind, the fact that there are actually Scots who support f(_)ckers like Cameron and Broon is really quite boggling.

135

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:21:02
Rufus and Smee see 137 and why do you think you know more about this than all those Generals who said Trident was useless ?
136

TWC,

exLabour 28/06/2009 09:21:38
133 Hagbard Celine,

Smee it's simple we will vote at the GE and the Tories (and Labour if they support Trident) will get slaughtered.

The people don't want it and have never wanted it.
137

Nevsky;,

Moscow 28/06/2009 09:21:46
133 Hagbard*

You are forgetting the invasion of England by the Normans on that list.

Might as well plan for the invasion of Martials in Auchtermuchty with a laser defense shield..just in case eh?
138

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:21:49
Hagbard spewing unionist lies again ,there are 11,000 staioned at Faslane only 859 are involved on WMD Trident.

also as someone stated earlier when slavery was abolished and concentration camps closed many people lost their jobs.
so WMD are horrible and against all known decent people but ok for unionists where ALWAY and in EVERYTHINg the end justifies hte means
139

overton,

aberdeen 28/06/2009 09:22:47
129 Herry Oaksters

Please revert back to the Beano blogg where your intellectually demanding responses will be received by a more appreciative audience.
140

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:23:35
138 Ah so it's a testosterone thing for you is it ?
141

,

28/06/2009 09:24:25
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142

,

28/06/2009 09:24:46
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143

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:24:50
142 Will Trident protect us from the Death Star ? Surely that is relevant too.
144

Queen D,

28/06/2009 09:24:51
Mikko , there is no defence against fruitcakes.
Mutually assured destruction has never been a worthwhile policy for any party to pursue.

Scotland has had her waters polluted long enough.
Just how many Conservative MPs does Scotland have?

Cameron made this statement some time ago , I can remember seeing a video where he stated it was all right for us to have free prescriptions but not all right for us to say no to Trident, in fact I think it could be found on youtube or Moridura.
145

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:25:14
140 Observers, how many Generals said Trident was useless?
146

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 09:27:34
It's a pity how many silly people here just want to stick their heads in the sand. If Iran gets a nuke it will use it or give it to a terrorist to use it. Nothing - not some peace protest by numpty students and Guardian readers - or anything else will stop it using its nukes execept for the risk that we will utterly annhilate it with Trident.

Live with it and stop talking rubbish.
147

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:28:56
151 Just answer the question - why would Iran want to attack an independent Scotland ?
148

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 09:29:14
124 qohldr

Obviously not, and that is at the crux of this whole issue.

Planning matters are devolved and it is this vehicle which would be employed by the Scottish Government to thwart Westminster plans for Trident.

Westminster have it within their power to remove this responsibility from Holyrood, however should Cameron, or anyone else attempt to do this, they stand to reap the whirlwind in the forthcoming Independence referendum.

149

Faux Cul,

28/06/2009 09:30:36
126
Jerry Springer,


You coudn't discount that.

Nor could you Iceland sailing up the Thames, capturing Westmister, 10 Downing Street and holding him for ransom.

Fat good Trident would do there.

Mind you Iceland invading the Thames and doing the rest might not be such a bad idea.

150

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:31:01
150 there were a group of them who wrote into the Times headed by the ex chief of the Armed forces.
151

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:31:21
153 Bully Boy - 'Forthcoming Independence referendum'?

When is that then?
152

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:32:00
Observer do you have the link for this?
153

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 09:32:35
#130 Hagbard Celine

If the Royal Navy(The one that flys the English flag, with the cute little Union Jack postage stamp) was to exit the clyde while the Union was intact it would indeed be an economic blow to the area.

Independence would of course secure the jobs that are under threat indefinitely, in fact it may well generate more.

As of 2008, the Royal Norwegian Navy consists of approximately 3,700 personnel (9,450 if mobilized, and 32,000 if fully mobilized) and 70 vessels, including 3 heavy frigates, 6 submarines, 6 corvettes, 14 patrol boats, 4 minesweepers, 4 minehunters, 1 mine detection vessel, 4 support vessels and 2 training vessels.

The Royal Navy is a constituent component of the Naval Service, which also comprises the Royal Marines, Royal Fleet Auxiliary, Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Marines Reserve. The Royal Navy numbers 37,500 people of whom approximately 6,000 are in the Royal Marines

The Royal Navy has 88 ships (104 including Royal Fleet Auxiliary).
154

Faux Cul,

28/06/2009 09:33:23
#137

Do you think Brown is of the Earth?
155

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:33:32
157 hold on I will get one.
156

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 09:33:59
#152 Fruitcakes attack without logical reasons - generally because they just want to take over or destroy the rest of us. But MAD has always given them pause for thought (and those around them who can exert some control on their madness).
157

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 09:34:33
156 Rufus

St Andrew’s Day 2010.

Do try to keep up.
158

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:34:52
154 Faux Cul,28/06/2009 09:30:36
You coudn't discount that.
Nor could you Iceland sailing up the Thames, capturing Westmister, 10 Downing Street and holding him for ransom.
=================================================

You could discount that.

Iceland is part of Salmond's Arc of Bankruptcy and as a consequence it could not afford to buy the boat to sail up the Thames.
159

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:36:00
We Unionists do like to be selective when we demand people respect the will of the Scottish Parliament! Remember our little fit when the SNP tried to block the (very successful) Edinburgh tram scheme?

Now, given that a clear majority of MSPs, Scottish MPs do not want Trident here, we demand that Salmond stops reflecting the will of the parliament!

Anyone reading the "MPs moonlighting" issue, detailing as it does a huge number of Unionist MPs with up to 6 extra jobs, earning hundreds of thousands, may also detect a certain hypocrisy on our part re "two jobs"!

Avanti Hypocrisy and Inconsistent Positions - The Unionist Way!
160

ubinworryinmasheep,

28/06/2009 09:36:11
Nobody will nuke nobody ... its simply that, but what might happen is being able to invade a neighbouring country without fear of being nuked if you can fight back. Now since our neighbouring countrys are all friendly why do we have nukes....notice the Americans are far enough away from the enemy to not care about being invaded (with the exception of the Bearing Straits which are desolate enough and unsuitable to mass your troops there).
161

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:36:14
162 dunedin bully wee 1877,28/06/2009 09:34:33
156 Rufus
St Andrew’s Day 2010.
Do try to keep up.
===================================================

Really?

That is all confirmed then?

Can you post the link?
162

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 28/06/2009 09:36:20
Cameron would be obliged to listen to the people of Scotland.

How about a referendum on the issue? I am pretty sure a big majority would reject Trident.
163

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:37:12
163 "Iceland is part of Salmond's Arc of Bankruptcy and as a consequence it could not afford to buy the boat to sail up the Thames."

If only the UK wasn't bankrupt also, with the highest debt/GDP in the developed world, that post would have worked better!

164

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/06/2009 09:37:27
#134

" nuclear stockpile is as much as liability as a deterrent as means have been devised to remotely detonate it - where it sits"

Of course it has that why so many of them have blown up over the last 65 years.
165

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:37:36
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5525082.ece

There you go Rufus, there were other follow on letters and articles but you can google them yourself.
166

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:38:40
Still, on the plus side, I think we can all agree our New Labour foreign policy has really stabilised the middle east and thus reduced terrorist risks.
167

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:39:07
161 No fruitcakes tend to do things like blowing up the Twin Towers.
168

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 28/06/2009 09:39:25
#1 Ah, the old 11,000 jobs lost lie.

I challenge you to provide some breakdown of the jobs involved. If you can't, then you will confirm my suspicions that you are simply parroting someone else's statement.
169

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:40:23
171 I think you mean that it has helped make the world seven times more dangerous according to Begen and Cruickshanks, a threat Trident will do absolutely nothing to counter.
170

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:40:25
168 English Voice,28/06/2009 09:37:12
163 "Iceland is part of Salmond's Arc of Bankruptcy and as a consequence it could not afford to buy the boat to sail up the Thames."
======================================================

The UK is leading the world out of recession, did you not know that?

Whilst Gordon Brown is steering the world economy through choppy waters, Alex Salmond is phoning up the boss of the National Library of Scotland to bully him about a flag on a workers desk.

Puts things in perspective.
171

ubinworryinmasheep,

28/06/2009 09:40:57
#151 Its one thing to launch your missiles at a country and face retribution but would the US/UK launch a strike on a country suspected of giving nuclear material to terrorists, who then blew up a bomb in say London.... it would just open up a big can of worms. If anything it would be a ground war not a nuclear.
172

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:41:39
#170 Thanks Obs.
173

John S,

28/06/2009 09:41:44
David Cameron has warned.....trying to obstruct them.
This has nothing to do with our FM, the Scottish Government is carrying out the wishes of the Scottish Parliament who voted on the 14 June 2007 to reject the replacement of Trident.

David Cameron has warned.....trying to obstruct them.
This has nothing to do with our FM, it will be the Scottish people who will decide via the ballot box, vote independence and vote no nuclear deterrent located in Scotland.

The dilemma for the UK Government is install Britain's nuclear deterrent in Scotland knowing that there is a possibility that Scotland could become an independent country, then what ? unless there is a guarantee that Scotland will not become an independent country ?
174

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:42:58
Now some of you may be wondering when we Unionists became so concerned about potential job losses in Scotland?

Was it when we allowed Britoil to close its headquarters in Scotland?

Or was it when we allowed the closure of Ravenscraig and Gartcosh?

Perhaps when we sacked 11,000 Remploy workers?

Or maybe it is hidden within our post office closure programme?

Or perhaps we don't care about Scottish jobs at all, having axed tens of thousands, but now find a convenient angle to hang our Trident hat on?

Avanti Unionist Spin!
175

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:43:49
170 Observer,,Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:37:36
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5525082.ece

There you go Rufus, there were other follow on letters and articles but you can google them yourself.
=================================================

That link does not work.

There is no such page.

Another cunning Nationalist Ploy.
176

ubinworryinmasheep,

28/06/2009 09:44:16
Besides the americans have made and tested weapons now that probably go against the Geneva convention that they cant use but i suspect would use in the event of a war escalating beyond a countrys border. Iraq and Afghanistan are not places for these weapons ..but say Russia or China going astray then maybe
177

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:44:59
175. That post would have worked better if Gordon Brown hadn't been devoting so much time to important matters like phoning Smon Cowell to ask how Susan Boyle was feeling!

Gordon Brown, saving the world and abolishing boom and bust!

Don't you just love our Unionist spin - the bolder the better (we don't care anymore that people are just laughing at us!)
178

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 09:46:50
183 English Voice,28/06/2009 09:44:59
175. That post would have worked better if Gordon Brown hadn't been devoting so much time to important matters like phoning Smon Cowell to ask how Susan Boyle was feeling!
=======================================================

Only reason Salmond never phoned her was because he did not want to make Sandi Thom jealous.
179

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:47:28
175 "Whilst Gordon Brown is steering the world economy through choppy waters,"

Oh lord, even I think we we may have taken the Gordon global messiah angle too far. It is clear to most people after his shambolic reshuffles that he cant steer himself to the gents, let alone steer the world economy.

I think the Susan Boyle/ human empathy angle is our stronger suit now for selling Gordon!
180

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:48:36
184. Jerry

great post! However, it does seem that Gordon devotes a bit too much time phoning reality TV participants? I thought he was focussed on leading the world?

181

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 09:49:35
#179 look at the polls. There is zero possibility of Scotland voting for independence in the next 30 years. That is a plain fact. Live with it.
182

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:51:15
Rufus just google Trident is useless. I can't believe you didn't read about it at the time.
183

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:51:43
187. Mikko

great post! Given the last posll showed independence support even with opposition, I feel our best Unionist strategy is to

(i) tell people how they will vote
(ii) say there is no chance of independence

But is there not a danger that people will wonder why we devote (obsessively, 24/7 in some cases) our dreary existences to postings on blogs against independence if we think it won't happen?
184

John S,

28/06/2009 09:51:52
Over 40,000 Scottish defence-related jobs have been shed since 1990 without significant government intervention to ensure the provision of alternative employment. STUC - June 2006
185

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/06/2009 09:52:49
#173

See my post at #78 for some jobs that will leave Scotland, about 5-6 thousand.
186

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 09:53:14
181 Rufus



BBC News channel 16/01/09
The UK's nuclear deterrent should be scrapped, according to a group of retired senior military officers.
Field Marshal Lord Bramall and Generals Lord Ramsbotham and Sir Hugh Beach have denounced Trident as "irrelevant".
General Lord Ramsbotham told the BBC that the "huge" £20bn expense of renewal has to be questioned and said the armed forces should get more funds.
Supporters say it is still essential that the UK should maintain its independent nuclear arsenal.
Lord Ramsbotham told the BBC's Newsnight programme: "We argue it is conventional weapons we now need.
"Their pin-point accuracy, their ability to help our forces in the sort of conflicts that are taking place is something which means you have to question the huge expense of Trident, which is limiting what we can do."
In a letter to the Times, the men say the UK is too dependent on the US when it comes to defence.
They write: "Nuclear weapons have shown themselves to be completely useless as a deterrent to the threats and scale of the violence we currently face, or are likely to face - particularly international terrorism."

"Our independent deterrent has become virtually irrelevant except in the context of domestic politics.
"Rather than perpetuating Trident, the case is much stronger for funding our armed forces with what they need to meet the commitments actually laid upon them. In the present economic climate it may well prove impossible to afford both."

187

,

28/06/2009 09:54:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
188

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 09:55:13
191 The STUC are volunteering to shed 5 to 6,000 jobs ? I don't think so. There will still be a defensive capability and people can be redeployed. It's not rocket science.
189

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:56:38
191. Odd that the UK defence secretary said it was a few hundred...

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) direct and (b) indirect civilian jobs rely upon the Trident programme; and how many will rely on it in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2020. [32437]
190

lachlan,

28/06/2009 09:57:57
11,000 jobs?
'beat your swords into ploughshares'
191

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 09:58:26
#138 Mikko

Who is threatening us(your definition of us)with Nuclear Oblivion...?

Nobody!

Suppose the leaders of a "Rogue State" were, at some point in the future.

Do you not feel assured that you personally could raise sufficient funds and wherewithal to assassinate the blighter(s)?

Perhaps a hundred of us could?

It would seem to me a tad less morally reprehensible to hold politicians personally responsible for their actions, than to squander billions to maintain a credible threat to incinerate millions of innocents.
192

English Voice,

28/06/2009 09:58:56
193. Jerry

what a total disgrace. The First Minister congratulating Scots who have special achievements?

What ever next?

Blair's celebrity spree at Chequers (oh, and you paid) | Mail Online26 Jul 2007 ... Opposition MPs said the revelations were the final proof of Mr Blair's "celebrity obsession"

Celebrity chums top Chequers guest list - Times Online26 Jul 2007 ... The full list of Chequers guests Tony Blair's fondness for
193

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:00:57
936 civilian jobs directly dependent on Trident would become redundant between 2022 and 2027. The main skill groups would be MoD police and security (400), outfitting and steel work (240), technical and supervisory mainly in shipbuilding related areas (70) and clerical (70). If, however, Trident was decommissioned early to coincide with the build up of Astute class nuclear submarines at Faslane to a total of six by 2018, and thereby avoiding the need to increase the workforce to service ten submarines between 2018 and 2022, the level of job losses could be reduced mainly to security staff between 2016 and 2018
194

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:01:27
Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate how many (a) direct and (b) indirect civilian jobs in (i) Scotland and (ii) the rest of the UK rely upon the Trident programme. [214416]
Mr. Hoon: The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland, with an additional 6,640 in the rest of the United Kingdom. The number of civilian jobs which indirectly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 300 in Scotland and 5,700 for the rest of the UK. There are 850 MOD Trident crew staff.
195

mr broon,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:02:18
Should Scotland ever decide to secede from this unitary State, one of its best bargaining tools in negotiations could well be the very existence of Trident at Faslane, and other military installations such as RAF bases?

Irrespective of naive Nationalist aims to prevent the renewal of Trident, like many previous colonial countries, it could well come to some pragmatic agreement to allow the Royal Naval base at Faslane, and other MoD facilities to remain open.....
at a price.

Similar has happened at other colonial outposts like Malta. To this day, Guantanamo Bay, an historical anomaly of the Spanish-American War, is a prime example. A communist state which still allows a US military presence on its territory for an annual payment of $14 million dollars a year!
196

TWC,

exLabour 28/06/2009 10:03:42
It's up to the Scots and that's final but a funny thing is that with money the way it is and a probable 10% cut back the defence spending will be limitted to conventional weaponry in the next 5 years.

This nay be Cameron seeking a way out.
197

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 10:03:52
198 English Voice,28/06/2009 09:58:56

what a total disgrace. The Prime Minister congratulating Scots who have special achievements? (sic)

What ever next? (sic)
198

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 10:04:01
193 Rufus

“The First Minister is also keen to issue con-gratulatory letters in recognition of sporting or artistic achievement and other success.”


I note that you decline to quote a source for your comment.


By the way, there is no hyphen in congratulatory.

199

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:05:54
203.

Perhaps the deputy prime minister describing Gordon Brown as insecure and celebrity obsessed?

Insecure Brown: By Peter Mandelson the power broker after email is ...8 Jun 2009 ... Brown is insecure, celebrity-obsessed, and angry says Peter Mandelson the power broker in leaked email. By Daily Mail Reporter ...
www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Insecure-Brown-By-Peter-Mandelson-power-broker-email-leaked.html - Similar
200

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 10:06:08
#187
Mikko,
Drumnadrochit

Ha Ha

What odd's would you have got against The Tories and UKIP knocking Labour into third place at the Euro elections or them finishing 6th in Cornwall behind Con, Lib, UKIP, BNP and the Cornish Nationalists...Three years ago, far less Thirty?
201

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:07:32
203. Rufus

you posted at #1 that 11,000 jobs in Scotland would be lost if Trident went.

Why does the Uk defence secretary think your are exaggerating by a factor of 10?



202

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 10:07:57
201 I don't think we want any moral equivalents of Guantanamo Bay in Scotland thank you, no matter the price they may attract.
203

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:08:47
Rufus says "consign 11,000 Scottish jobs to the dustbin"

The UK defence secretary says:

Mr. Hoon: The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland
204

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 10:10:48
The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland

Who can be redeployed.
205

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:10:48
Italmost looks that we Unionists just spin, exaggerate and scare monger in the absence of an argument...

Remember - £5000 SNP tax bill, how will your family cope? Looks a bit silly given London Labour's £55,000 deficit tax bill for each individual now.

11,000 Trident job losses in Scotland! Looks a bit bit silly when the UK government says it is 963.

Avanti Spin, Exaggeration and Doom - its the Unionist way!
206

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:12:04
210. good grief! We Unionists just make up exaggerated, fantasy, doom stories and job loss numbers, we cannot then back them up!
207

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 10:13:33
210 To be fair to Rufus I don't think he was the original fantasist and liar. I think that was Jackie Baillie.
208

Jerry Springer,

28/06/2009 10:14:25
204 dunedin bully wee 1877,28/06/2009 10:04:01
By the way, there is no hyphen in congratulatory.
=======================================================

There is when the word is split over 2 lines (as it was in the original article that I was quoting from).
209

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:15:03
214. Quite right. We Unionists just fabulate, invent and exaggerate the numbers, we cannot be held responsible if our fantasist numbers are in fact just second hand fiction!
210

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:16:03
215. Rufus

no doubt you will now explain why the Uk defence secretary got his numbers so disastrously worng and well short of your 11,000 claimed job losses?
211

Publius,

Girvan 28/06/2009 10:16:34
#212; #213

It's not Trident jobs that are risk. It's the new aircraft carrier contracts and the jobs on the Forth. The carriers togehter with their planes and support warships are unaffordable and will be cancelled sooner or later. Brown only said OK to new carriers, because he thinks he will credit for saving jobs in Fife.
212

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:17:36
218. So you are saying the UK economic melt down is costing Scottish jobs?

213

LEAL,

28/06/2009 10:21:56
Harpo 15 etc
If we accept that Scotland lags far behind other similair countries as your figures prove,we have to ask WHY?And if we believe Scotland benefits from being part of the union there is only one reasonable answer;
THE SCOTS AS A PEOPLE ARE INFERIOR TO OTHER PEOPLES.
Of course it could be argued that we are so pathetic that we need another 300 years of London rule to let us catch up on other countries.I dont think so.
214

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 10:22:57
215 Rufus

Your lack of literacy and numeracy is now legend on these forums.

I note that you have declined yet again failed to acknowledge the source of your “quote”.

I trust that you are therefore not in breach of their copyright.
215

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:23:48
Oh dear, poor Rufus seems unable to sqaure his fantasy fiction job loss predictions with the UK Defence Secretary's answer on number of jobs involved.

I fear we Unionists will just have to make up something else!

243,876 Scottish Jobs at risk by SNP free prescriptions policy!

11,321 Bridge Toll Collectors made redundant by SNP abolishing Forth andTay tolls!
216

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:26:08
222. Rufus's quote seems to come from the esteemed and reliable "watchsusanboyle.com" site

Google "And the SNP leader plays the fame game by making sure his lackeys remind him to write notes praising stars like tennis ace Andy Murray and Britain's Got Talent singer Susan Boyle" and "watchsusanboyle.com"

He may have got his 11,000 job loss number from the "britainIsBankrupt" site as well
217

Cam3,

28/06/2009 10:27:11
Bottom line - democracy.

Do the Scottish people want ANYTHING to do with them?

No, they do not.

Devolution, though it MUST be replaced by full independence, exists to give democratic 'voice' to the nation, no?

The nation has, consequently, spoken.

Sorry Mr.Cameron. If your 'respect' for Scotland ends at listening to the overwhelming majority of the nation, then it's not respect at all.

I'm sure there's enough room on the Thames, next to all those tourists, for this unwanted, unnecessary, costly waste of money. Then you can rest easy that 'Britain is strong and ready to retaliate' to all those imaginary foes.

Give Alex 5% of the Trident money and we'll see what this excellent Scottish Government can do - which will, obviously, be a damn sight more than the England/Britain first Blue Labour/Red Tories are capable of.
218

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:27:31
http://watchsusanboyle.com/salmonds-first-mini-star-the-sun/
219

Jimmy Fae the West,

Hull 28/06/2009 10:28:14
This is absolutely shocking that the BBC have produced two versions of the same program for black-propaganda purposes, driven by their masters in the london government. One moderately pro-devolution programe condemning the democratic movement towards independence. And another specifically persuading the English that they have nothing to fear from devolution as it cannot lead to independence and the meagre powers that the Scottish parliament have can be instantly revoked if the Scots show signs of rebelling against their entrapment of the colony. the English program refuses to discuss what independence has done for the Australian ex-colony. David cameron's remarks will be tempered for the Scottish version, but will be far more sisnister in it's implications for Scots if they dare to enact the vote of the Scottish Labour party MSPs in banning the me saparty's own plot to force Scotland to be Britain's bull's-eye in any Nuclear threats or terrorist attacks. Democracy is a very good reason for independence, the destination of devolution.
220

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 10:29:50
#201 Cuba does not "allow" the United States to have a base there; I would really love to see Cuba try and evict them! The USA is there because it is powerful. And remember: If we didn't have nukes, Russia would have filled Cuba with them in the 1960s (and East Germany as well) and what could we have done without nukes except surrender unconditionally?
221

,

28/06/2009 10:30:00
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222

,

28/06/2009 10:30:16
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223

Edward,

28/06/2009 10:32:19
#218 Publius,Girvan
In financial terms, both Trident and the 'Super' Carriers will be under review and realisticaly should be scrapped.The UK as a whole cannot afford them
The Carriers are Brown's folly, trying to pretend that the UK is some global power, pretending that the UK is some wealthy country, when it is neither. The man is deluded!
224

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 28/06/2009 10:33:00
191 5,000 - 6,000, not 11,000.
225

Marga,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:34:10
Guardian/Observer:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/28/defence-projects-axed-save-money

Yesterday Des Browne, who as Labour's defence secretary pushed the Trident decision through parliament, welcomed the report, telling the Observer that while it was the right choice at the time to upgrade the system, possible alternatives were now emerging.

"I never, ever thought that the decision about Trident closed the debate down," he said. He also confirmed claims of a black hole, adding: "There is an order book which outstrips the department's capacity to pay for it - that's no secret."
226

john z,

edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:35:00
Imagine at present Scotland had no Nuclear submarines or missiles. Imagine an MSP standing up in holyrood suggesting we spend twice the annual total Scottish budget on a new nuclear missles system. They would be laughed at.

Why does anybody believe that a country the size of Scotland with a population of just over 6 million, could ever need intercontinental ballistic nuclear missiles??

It absolutely beggars belief.

As for Camerons comments, it just shows us Scots the contempt that the Tories still have for the views of the Scottish people.

If England wants nuclear missiles in subs, might I kindly suggest they get them the f*** out of Scotland and berth them on the river Thames - I believe there is a good mooring point next to the Palace of Westminster.

This is why Scotland has no need for the second parliament in London. Time for independence from the abusive english yoke.
227

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 10:35:46
We could have let RBS go to the wall and bought two new Tridents with the same money. At least then we'd have something to show for our money and some real jobs for real working people. Instead we have another board of crooks awarding themselves millions of of our money on pay, bonuses, pensions, expenses and champaigne parties.
228

Edward,

28/06/2009 10:35:50
David Cameron can warn the Scotish Government all he wants, he has and will have no mandated over Scotland
This time next year Labour will be history and the Tories will be in government in Westminster
Scotland needs to gather itself for this and decide weither to remain part of the UK and deal with the Tories or become Independent
229

Marga,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:38:47
Also from the Guardian article,it's easy to spot one of the main purposes of Secretary of State Murphy: Stopping the views of the Scottish Government getting proper press coverage.

Why should Murphy be quoted, when he is not the man on the ground? I wonder if he will manage to get a Sirhood before this government goes, he's got all it takes.
230

Edward,

28/06/2009 10:39:41
#240 Mikko
Spoken like a true unioinist a-hole!
Trident does not create jobs - it is a complet waste of taxpayers money or cant your brain get round that
231

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 10:40:10
#217 English Voice,

To be fair to Rufus every ten years or so their are big construction or refurbishment projects that employ a couple of thousand, many of whom are Scots.

I have worked on a few of them, the systemic incompetence and wastage is mind boggling, it would cost about £30 for these troughers to make you a cheese sandwich...and it would probably taste like dog poo!

President Eisenhower warned us about allowing the Military Industrial Complex to influence policy...a shame that few listened to him.
232

john z,

edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:41:09
Arise, Sir Jim P(m)uppet Murphy, Secretary of State AGAINST Scotland.
233

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:41:21
203. Rufus

you posted at #1 that 11,000 jobs in Scotland would be lost if Trident went.

Why does the Uk defence secretary think your are exaggerating by a factor of 10?
234

English Voice,

28/06/2009 10:42:46
Oh dear, poor Jerry Rufus, unable to back up his 11,000 job loss fantasy!

I am beginning to think our Unionist strategy of fabulation, fiction and fantasist doom mongering may not be as credible as we had thought!
235

Roy,

28/06/2009 10:44:31
If the Tories want their toys let them tether them in the Thames.
236

Nicky Tam,

THE FREE NATION OF SCOTLAND 28/06/2009 10:44:33
Replacing Trident at a cost of £25 bn capital cost

YOUGOV SURVEY FOR SNP

Fieldwork: February 13-19, 2007; sample 1,191

I would rather see the £25 billion capital cost for a new generation of nuclear missiles spent on public services such as local schools, hospitals and police

Agree - 76

Disagree - 12

Not sure - 12

The UK government is due to make a decision on the purchase of a new generation nuclear missile system to replace Trident, at a capital cost of around £25 billion. Would you support or oppose the government buying a new nuclear missile system to replace Trident?

Support purchase of system to replace Trident - 18

Oppose purchase of system to replace Trident - 66

Don't know - 16

YOUGOV SURVEY FOR SNP

Fieldwork: March 12-15, 2007 Sample Size: 1144 T

he latest estimate for the life-time cost of a replacement for the Trident nuclear missile system is between £76 billion and £100 billion pounds. Do you think this is a good or bad use of public money?

Good use - 15

Bad use - 72

Don't know - 13
237

Jimmy Fae the West,

Hull 28/06/2009 10:47:47
Re 226,

It is good to know that whilst the SNP refruse to be churlish the Sun supporting Murdoch control of the British government are still being very churlish and petulant. I am afraid? is not anything we want to hear from the SNP on the other hand from a unionist antagoniser it is just what they should be repeating ad-neuseam.

If Alex Salmond writing to congratulate successful Scots is a folly how would the Sun describe the giving seats in an upper house of Yes-men who have the unelected powers to reject any law passed in the parliament? Thank goodness tha SNP are NOT churlish!
238

Nicky Tam,

THE FREE NATION OF SCOTLAND 28/06/2009 10:49:33
Cameron has just signed the Tories death warrant in Scotland for another generation.

The Calman Omission and The Unionist Cabal just do not get it. They rage at Alex Salmond for his justified use of the Saltire to support his desire for Scottish freedom and independence. Impotent foam flecked swivel eyed rage as he torpedoes Brittania and she slips beneath the waves with the orchestra playing, SCOTLAND THE BRAVE.
=======================================================
SNP MSP Bill Kidd has welcomed the first meeting of the Scottish Government's Working Group on a Scotland without nuclear weapons.

Mr Kidd highlighted how Trident was a jobs destroyer in Scotland, and how there was overwhelming opposition to a Trident replacement from Scottish MPs, the Scottish Parliament and the public.

Commenting Mr Kidd said:

"Both the Scottish Trade Unions Council and Scottish CND have shown that if the UK Government was not spending billions of pounds on a new generation of weapons of mass destruction we could have significant investment in other, more productive parts of our economy.

"Trident is a costly waste of government's limited resources. It is a jobs destroyer as well as being immoral.

"The STUC has shown up the scaremongering of some Labour politicians and the Ministry of Defence. Trident is not the key to employment on the Clyde. In fact replacing Trident could cost Scotland and the Clyde 3,000 jobs.

239

John PH,

Fife 28/06/2009 10:51:26
The jobs issue is a distraction. This argument was probably raised when the shipowners and the chandlers who supplied stores to those vessels, along with blacksmiths who were the manufacturers of chain and shackle fetters, complained about, when the slave trade was banned.
240

Nicky Tam,

THE FREE NATION OF SCOTLAND 28/06/2009 10:53:30
Het Rufus....I mean Jerry Springer. I asked you a question yesterday have you thought of an answer yet, or are you under the blankets again??????
=======================================================
Hey Jerry Springer, what are you on??? You have been on here since this issue went live. Don't you think you should have a medical and some counselling??? What a state you're in man I have not see anyone as rabid as you posting on any forum like this. Are you being blackmailed or what? Just imagine how demented you will be on independence day, I hope they have a back to front jacket ready for you. You must be WiFi and hide your laptop under the blankets when the nurses go past.
======================================================

At the Burns Memorial Lecture in 2004 Kofi Annan said "Let us admire the enduring resonance of the work of Robert Burns and let us dream as he did of a true brotherhood, and sisterhood that embraces all humankind and allows all people to enjoy their inalienable rights, dignity and freedom".

Sentiments such as these could be interpreted as being critical of, and an embarrassment for, the present UK Government so it would hardly be surprising if they preferred him to give a talk on Adam Smith.
241

Machelpus,

28/06/2009 10:54:16
14# It's not just the Scots that don't want this money eating WMD, but you see the English are ruled by the Scottish mafia [can't wait for you to get them back]and we may march and protest but are swept aside in their idea of democracy.......

As for Cameron [good Scottish name that] he makes speeches in Scotland that are never reported in England such as proffessing his pride of the Scottish blood that runs through his veins.

The majority in England in a poll showed they are against Trident but unlike Mr Salmond we have no power to fight the decision. so please don't blame the English we have under the mafia been disected and regionalised, however there is growing dissent below the border as to the injustice of it all. so maybe there is hope begining to show through, Doncaster even voted in a English Democrat Mayor
242

Publius,

Girvan 28/06/2009 10:54:23
couple of points

#241 Edward
Most likely outcome is that Tories form the UK government in 2010, SNP wins Scotland again in 2011 but not with overall majority. Bickering between Westminster and Holyrood continues until - perhaps - SNP divides between separatist and home rule wings as Party quebecois did in Quebec.

#249 Nicky Tam
One of the questions you report is misleading. The 76-100 billion includes the running costs over 20 years or so as well as the initial capital outlay. You will get some pretty big numbers if you include the running costs of any major project in the total figure. How much will the new Forth Road Bridge cost over 20 years? ... or a big hospital whether paid under PFI or the Scottish Futures Trust?
243

Nicky Tam,

THE FREE NATION OF SCOTLAND 28/06/2009 10:54:59
Dignity and Freedom....Something the Jerry Springers of this world will never have.
244

,

28/06/2009 10:59:59
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245

,

28/06/2009 11:03:07
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246

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 11:04:02
A momentous and historic week in Holyrood politics: it looks like they may actually pass some legislation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Presumably, after the climate change bill, our representatives will be taking the rest of the year off, and devote their time to PR stunts again.

Never in the field of Scottish politics, has so little been achieved by so many.
247

archie23,

london 28/06/2009 11:07:28
133 Hagbard.

All of the examples you refer to are of countries which were invaded by a neighbour.

Are you suggesting that without Trident Scotland might be invaded by a neighbour?

If so, which one did you have in mind?

Got it yet?
248

Fitba Krazy,

28/06/2009 11:08:59
73 Tartan Bond.

The point is that this nuclear stuff is not to defend Scotland with. Because they want to site it on Scotland doesn't mean it's Scottish, that's the point.

If a nuclear war started without Scottish influence, the nuclear stuff in Scotland being a target makes us vulnerable. In the event that Scotland got blootered off the map what do you think England and the US would do about it? I'll tell you, SFA.

They should shove THEIR nukes and keep them out of Scotland.
249

English Voice,

28/06/2009 11:09:23
254. Not all parliaments can command the respect of the people like Westminster, through its high standards of probity and full-ttime, dedicated members...
250

English Voice,

28/06/2009 11:10:49
255. The Isle of Man is known for an agressive, militaristic expansionist mania.....

We unionists must really think up some better doom mongering fantasies!
251

Faux Cul,

28/06/2009 11:11:18
Just been backtracking through the comments sections.

Mikko is nuts, completely nuts.

Just as well he doesn't have his hand on the button, and not only for the people of Drumnadrochit.
252

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 11:13:21
#257 English

You are comparing a parliament with a place where MSPs gather and achieve nothing. Holyrood is not worth commenting on any more - it has stopped.
253

oder,

Sotland 28/06/2009 11:16:40
Mikko,Drumnadrochit

no one is saying get rid of them! just keep them in England.
254

oder,

Scotland 28/06/2009 11:21:21
The Answer,Glasgow 28/06/2009 07:18:01
Least we forget , the scots are only 8% of the UK population, and contribute only 7% of new university undergaduates.


so we should carry 100% of the risk of retaliation?
255

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 11:26:29
When I said that our MSP representatives achieve nothing, and do nothing apart from PR stunts, we can read the article, as an example of the mind-numbingly boring, pointlessness of Scottish politics, nowadays.

No doubt they will be passing a motion to 'congratulate Andy Murray', next... At least watching paint dry has a purpose.
256

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 11:38:20
The cartoon world of Holyrood is is reinforced by have a 'Scottish government' who can apparently cost nuclear-powered submarines armed with intercontinental ballistic missiles, but find changing local government taxation beyond their abilities.
257

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 28/06/2009 11:38:30
Ah the negative self loathing Quisling Vichy Scot tin man is here.
A numpty that wants Holyrood closed and everything returned to that place of great probity Westminster.

He also (which will coma as a great surprise) loves his football on the South side of Glasgow.
He is also partial to walking the streets of a uly day with a bowler hat and white gloves on.

What a to@@er!!!
258

Jimmy Fae the West,

The land O' Green Ginger. 28/06/2009 11:39:58
David Cameron told an audience in Tory faithful in Ayr last month *"Whoever is Scotland's first minister, I would be a prime minister who acts on the voice of the Scottish people,"*
On the BBC tonight he makes it clear that he will ignore the voice of all the Scottish people.

As he is prepared to lie to his own party faithful in Scotland, so too, he is prepared to lie to all. Scots should be fearful of another English national Tory government hateful and jealous, which will win votes in England by tearing down the Scottish government and parliament using Labour's commissions, the sate owned Media and the state leader, Rupert Murdoch. with one single agenda, to destroy the SNP and the democratic will of Scotland which is not in tune with the anti-social, rabid, right wing, warmongering, xenophobic policies of south-east England.
259

Cam3,

28/06/2009 11:41:03
Ahhhh 'The Tin Man'.

Tell you what mate - other than the fact you're off thread, and clearly just a unionist troll, the mind-numbing irony of your mutterings seems to be lost on you? The classic unionist position - shallower than a sparrow's pint.

YOU, in fact, achieve nothing - whatsoever - in your hollow, meaningless, pointless comments. Not a single thing, other than cement your position as an 'A' grade numpty.

The Scottish Parliament DOES press forward, and - in 2009 - we can thank god that it exists at all, especially when you consider the colonial 'respect' offered up by the likes of Brown and now, Mr. Cameron.

Hey newsflash tin man. The parliament exists, and you're posts have about twelve years worth of mold on them. And there's NOTHING you or your monotonous Unionist drone can do about it. :o)
260

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 11:42:38
#265 SAP

How long have you been banned from holding SNP membership, or are they unaware of your extremist afiliations?

261

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 11:44:16
#267 Cam

Yes, I am aware that Holyrood exists! But that is all it does. When did your MSP last do something for you?
262

Fitba Krazy,

28/06/2009 11:49:30
249 Machelpus.

If, as you say, the English do NOT want this monstrosity, and who can blame them, and neither do the Scots, then who does and why?

It looks like Cameron is Blair mark 2 right enough.

263

John S,

28/06/2009 11:50:00
#187 Mikko, then the UK Government will have no problem just go ahead with the the replacement of Trident in Scotland, which will be turned into a rallying point for the pro-independence movement.

Polls it could be close the last TNS (May 2009) :- I agree 36%: I do not agree 39%:don't know 25%, divide the don't know between the two others and we get:- I agree 48.5% and I do not agree 51.5%
264

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 11:58:00
#263 The Tin Man

Spot on Tin Man...Much better that we have a Parliament with full powers to influence all the things that matter.

With a Government unhindered by a rump of second-rate deadwood inexorably enthralled to a collection of warmongering neo-colonialist wannabes with a Naziesque surveillance and identity card fettish.
265

Cam3,

28/06/2009 11:59:26
Well Tin Man, my MSP recently ensured my recycling pick-up points were made more accessible, with greater range of pick-up materials etc.

This has helped enormously. Further, the Government has recently pushed the boundaries of what small countries are actually capable of with the new climate decisions.

None of the anti-progressive, 'ye cannae dae it' garbage we seem to perpetually here from the likes of yourself and the god-awful, archaic, out-of-touch, rim-of-empire has beens we are pained to watch in Westminster.
266

Cam3,

28/06/2009 12:00:58
...though Tin Man, I would say that [following your thoughts] we best position ourselves to get COMPLETE separation from the Westminster cronies to ENSURE that our MSPs CAN do ANYTHING deemed necessary by the people of Scotland.

Sorted. ;o)
267

Jimmy Fae the West,

Hull 28/06/2009 12:03:17
Tin man,

The Scottsih government introduced a smoking ban making that nation far healthier, the London parliament and the London Yes men in the Spiritual and Temporal unelected house of gods were forced to imitate Holyrood. The Scottish parliament declared all expenses, Westminster would like to copy Holyrood. I pissed myself laughing at you crass stupidity. London has it's own devolved parliament and that has more powers than Holyrood, if you want to criticise, let New York born Boris-the-clown corrupt Olympic committee be the Target of your poorly aimed bile from now on.
268

The Scotchman,

28/06/2009 12:07:58
If England want to play with the big boys like USA, why not have these things down by the Thames?

SNP / Scotland also to vote and side with our St Andrews bearing friends - Russia. Let's host their gear here.

All of Harpo's figures have been removed. Just revealing the truth against the corrupt Union. Independence for Scotland now.
269

dunedin bully wee 1877,

28/06/2009 12:09:40
I asked this question before, but never got a reply from any of the wee band of unionistas on here.

Maybe Lard George is now awake and has been able to brief them on an answer.

“DAVID Cameron has warned Alex Salmond that Westminster must be able to decide on the shape of Britain's nuclear deterrent and defence "without the Scottish Government trying to obstruct them".


Or what will happen?

Will they nuke Charlotte Square in retaliation?

Maybe they will impose trade sanctions against us, and stop importing our oil, gas, electricity, water, fish, beef, lamb, pharmaceuticals and whisky?

Quiver, quiver!
270

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:10:00
269 Nicola Sturegeon has done a lot mre for me than the useless Sarwar ever has.
271

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:10:18
#272 Count

"Spot on Tin Man...Much better that we have a Parliament with full powers to influence all the things that matter."

Unfortunately, with the current parliament, we would just have MSPs who achieved nothing, but in the context of an independent State.
272

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 28/06/2009 12:10:53
268 tin Man /aka nobend

"How long have you been banned from holding SNP membership, or are they unaware of your extremist afiliations?"

how typicaly unionist a lie here ,a lie and slur there .
Here an illegal war ,there a cleaned moat ,a peerage for bribes.

you are a complete and utter numpty backing the losing horse
273

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:11:58
277 The only thing they could do is abolish Holyrood.

Bring it on.
274

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:12:23
#275 Jimmy

Yes, and this year they managed to pass a budget (but only just).
275

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:13:19
279 You know repeating a lie ad nauseum does not make it true no matter how many times you tell it.
276

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:13:36
#281 SAP the Cyber Bully

I will repeat the question, as you provided no answer:

How long have you been banned from holding SNP membership, or are they unaware of your extremist afiliations?
277

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:16:38
#278 Observer

Now, now, the previous lot did manage to enrich doctors very successfully. That, and building hospitals.
278

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:18:52
286 My MSP has managed to arrange for the new Southern General to be built under traditional borrowing methods rather than costly and wasteful PFI. That is an improvement is it not ?
279

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 28/06/2009 12:20:57
285 /tinman and what "extremeist affiliations "are you referring to ?
280

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:21:33
The SNP are starting a Council house building programme providing jobs and affordable homes for rent. That's pretty good news too Tin Man is it not ?
281

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:22:14
#287 Observer

"That is an improvement is it not ?"

...Only if it saves money. Can he count?
282

Fitba Krazy,

28/06/2009 12:22:41
282, Observer

I don't think they actually can abolish Holyrood.

They were made to allow the Scottish Parliament by the Council of Europe. Are they going to go against them?
283

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:23:02
The Scottish Parliament collectively have voted for some of the most far reaching legislation on homelesness in the world. Other countries view it as a model. We have also passed equalities legislation second to none. Quite an achievement in my opinion.
284

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:24:06
291 No, they are bluffing. Not a good idea to bluff when you only have one card in your hand, but then they are stupid.
285

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:24:55
290 all the world and his dog knows that traditional borrowing will save money compared to PFI. And yes, she can count.
286

John S,

28/06/2009 12:26:02
#257 English Voice:Westminster, through its ...... full-time, dedicated members.

A combination of generous holidays and reformed hours means that many MPs now have what is effectively a three day week (tho in some cases it is a two-and-a-half day week). This is Westminster's dirty little secret that no one here wants to talk about.

Many arrive on a Monday evening and go home on Thursday lunchtime. But because there is no means of "clocking in" and "clocking out", the public are completely unaware of just how little time MPs spend in the Commons.

Reforms were partially reversed by Jack Straw so the House doesn't actually sit until 2.30pm on a Monday yet rises often on Thursday afternoon.

However the main culprit is New Labour's creation of "constituency days". This means that the House sits very rarely on a Friday and instead Members are supposed to be devoting themselves to their constituents.

Similarly, what do they do with their very generous holidays? It's still amazing that at a time of recession, they took 24 days off for Christmas. They will get a further 17 days at Easter, ten at Whitsun and an astonishing 82-day break this summer. Again, every MP here will tell you that these are not really "holidays" and they are all working hard in their constituencies - but we have no real idea what they do with this time.
http://tinyurl.com/ddvrkz :::20 March 2009

287

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 12:26:48
#279 The Tin Man

I would welcome the "achievement of nothing" something of a boon, if weighed against the manifold negative accomplishments of Westminster.
288

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:27:04
#288 SAP

Half your catch phrases are straight out of Siol nan Gaidheal literature. Therefore, it presume you approve of it, and you are a member. Why do you ask?
289

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 28/06/2009 12:31:07
How on earth are we going to afford to replace our nuclear deterent? Th UK is bankrupt - why try and keep up the pretence that we are a world power (that's all this is really about).

The many, many billions saved by scrapping the ND would go a long way top easing the pain of the current recession.

Only a thought....
290

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:31:57
#294 Observer

" all the world and his dog knows that traditional borrowing will save money compared to PFI."

Has she show her constituents that 'borrowing money in a conventional manner' will yield savings compared to not-for-profit distribution funding?
291

George Mackay,

Coupar Angus 28/06/2009 12:32:27
My sister Fiona doesn't like Trident. She went on a protest camp outside Faslane. It rained a lot and Fiona got rheumatism. She wrote to Faslane saying that they should pay her medical expenses. She got a letter back saying they wouldn't pay and giving her a list of bed and breakfasts in Helensburgh. They said next time she felt like hanging around outside Faslane she stay in a warm bed every night.
292

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:33:02
#298 Luigiana

You are presuming that it will be replaced...
293

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 12:34:59
Scottish and Proud

Don't stand idly by...Tin Man is trying to wind you up at #297.

saor alba
294

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:37:25
299 Just concede defeat.
295

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:37:44
#302 The Col.

A wind-up? Those catch-phrased are straight out of Siol nan Gaidheal literature, then they are repeated by the donkeys. What do you think's going on on these threads?
296

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:39:07
#303 Observer

Don't be an unquestioning automaton. What is 'conventional borrowing'?
297

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:41:09
305 You asked what has your MSP done for you and I told you, don't start quibbling now. If you want to know why conventional borrowing methods are better than PFI then you haven't been paying attention for the last ten years or so.
298

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:44:28
#306 Observer

Your MSP will have fully detailed what 'conventional borrowing' methods will be used, and the cost of 'conventional borrowing', so you will be perfectly capable of detailing the savings that will be made, when compared to all the other funding mechanisms that she studied.

Either that, or you believe anything she says, because she is a member of your favoured party...?
299

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:46:25
307 No I am posting with my UNISON hat on. We have done a lot of research over the years on this subject. I can bore the pants off you if you like by posting it but I suspect you already know the facts.

So - you asked what has my MSP done for me and I have told you.
300

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 12:46:34
#304 The Tin Man

The last time I saw any siol nan gadheal literature...Maggie Thatcher was still on the throne, your failure to notice the well worn catchphrase in my post, would tend to suggest it has changed.

In fact apart from this morning, AM2 is the only person I have witnessed referring to it, I presume they are on the net these days.
301

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:48:02
My MSP has secured disproportionate funding for my area, payed for from the likes of Aberdeenshire business rates. That is the main reason I voted for her, rather than a party sheep.
302

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:49:09
310 And the relevance of that comment is ?
303

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:51:38
#309 The Col.

In that case you need to visit their website. The economics of photocopiers is rather more heartwarming than the cultural 'traitorous quisling' stuff. I am presuming that that is the original source, because it is not coming from the SNP.
304

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 12:53:15
#311 Observe

He must be another one of these subsidy junkies.
305

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:53:44
312 We all know the traitrorous quisling stuff isn't coming from the SNP but it's nice of you to confirm that.
306

Publius,

Girvan 28/06/2009 12:54:13
#289; #292 Observer

What's the point of building more council houses, when there are thousands and thousands of boarded up council houses all over Scotland? Why not refurbish the existing houses instead?
307

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/06/2009 12:54:29
#271 Your stats are all wrong. It has been proven that on key arguments the majority of people who say "don't know" will tend to go with the status quo. Try factoring that in.
308

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:55:44
313 I think he is implying that people vote out of self interest. Well I suppose we do. If you support the ''positively public'' way of funding capital works and oppose Trident then obviously you will vote SNP like I do. There is nothing sheep like about that it is an obvious choice.
309

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 12:56:09
#314 Observer

Non the less, it is interesting to see how easily it catches-on, as a reflection of some people's 'human nature'.
310

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 12:56:27
#312 The Tin Man

Photocopiers are only economical for short print runs...hilarious, considering where I learned that.
311

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:57:51
315 Most of the boarded up houses are in specific locations like Glasgow. They are being demolished or refurbished. The new building programmes are in areas where there isn't a range of affordable housing, where most if not all of the original stock has been lost due to right to buy or wasn't there in the first place.
312

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 12:59:35
318 I agree some people need to pay more attention to the language they use and the implications of it. For example Gordon Brown and his British jobs for British workers. We can all do it.
313

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 13:02:53
#317 Observer

Well, I could have voted for the latest Scottish socialist republican svvinger's party, but I use my swimming pool and library, presumably unlike the people of Aberdeen who must be more into wealth redistibution, and don't swim.
314

Earman,

Paphos 28/06/2009 13:03:47
Small wonder all the usual "Scotland is kr@p" & "naw, we cannae, naw, we're too wee/thick/skint" merchants are slaving away over their hot keyboards, for, unless I am very much mistaken, this damn'd First Minister of ours is AGAIN acting in the best interests of the people who elected him! Just WHO does he think he is?

Irony apart, it must break the hearts of the dwindling unionist rump everytime Mr Salmond says or does anything with the wellbeing of the Scottish people first and foremost in his mind.

Make no mistake, the ever-diminishing banshee wail of the naysayers only serves to take Scotland a little further down the road to independence and the dignity afforded thereby.
315

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 13:04:00
'Svingers'??????????????

'Oh prude of Scotchland
When will we see your likes again...'

etc.
316

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 13:05:08
All swings on Lewis must be prevented from swinging on the Sabbath, to prevent holy damnation.
317

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 13:05:34
Phew... some sanity still prevails..
318

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 13:06:17
322 I am sure the tanorexic one could find a use for your swimming pool but let's not go there I am about to have lunch.

319

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 28/06/2009 13:07:41
by the samme assumptions TinMan we can assume you are a paedophellia BNP Nazi extremeist and also a holocaust denier?

Isn't that what you do to be like a unionist just make ridiculous accussations based on no facts whatsoever?
you know throw in slurs and accussations.
you are vomit inducing
320

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 13:09:11
#327 Observer

...Just think of Alex...
321

livilion,

livingston 28/06/2009 13:10:22
Cameron has no business warning the SNP about anything, unlike the SNP he has no representation in Scotland worth a chow because Scots reject his politics, and anyway it is the People of Scotland who reject Trident (and the Labour/Liberal Parties when in opposition).

Try threatening Scots that: because they are British they will just have to do what they are told by Westminster(because we've always done it that way), but don't be surprised by an answer this time along the lines of 'Oh do you really think so?' and vote in a majority of SNP MPs up here, then who'll he and his gang of true blue Little Englanders be threatening?

Perhaps the Scotsman might suggest what sacrifices Cameron should expect us all to make to pay for his big boys toys?
322

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 13:12:29
#325 The Tin Man

The avoidance of holy damnation is a bad thing?

http://www.thebricktestament.com/exodus/the_ten_commandments/ex20_08p31_15.html

323

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 28/06/2009 13:14:59
#308
please inform us as to why,labour ignored UNISONs report in 1998,that PFI was a con,i have put it below
Secretaries' Report

Services fighting for existence

The lead up to the Scottish Parliament has seen the branch making a significant contribution to a number of consultation exercises, not least the Commission on Local Government and the Scottish Parliament.

The implications of the Parliament and it's relationship with local government, will have a major impact on our services and their delivery.

Consultation is ongoing and the branch will continue to try to ensure that we get the Parliament that our members want, one that will work, and will ensure public services are publicly owned, democratically run and properly resourced

The Scotland Act embraced the principles of access for all, engaging the community, and delivering services at the level closest to the people. What we have seen, though, as members of the various political parties jostle for seats, is a transparent willingness to sell out public services in favour of what can be shallow and limited national party lines.

Since the referendum, UNISON has constantly had to defend local services. Attempts to hive off services to the private sector, create arms length trusts, and discredit local service delivery, together with massive budget cuts, have meant we have had to fight for our very existence.

PFI: And one of the biggest cons is the Private Finance Initiative. The idea of new schools or hospitals is tempting until you realise the cost is far higher than public investment, the private companies end up owning the assets, other services are cut to pay for the private profits and our children end up paying through the nose for tens of years.

The branch has tried to expose the PFI illusion through newspaper articles, talks to Labour Party branches and seminars.
324

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 28/06/2009 13:19:03
#332
were all screwed then according to the brick
325

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 13:21:26
303 Why are you asking me ? I have been campaigning against PFI since it's inception. I'm not a Labour supporter and don't give a penny to them.
326

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 13:21:59
sorry 333
327

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 13:24:40
104
Michael N

"Just wondering how much money Salmond is willing to push towards creating any form of industry in the Helensburgh area once Trident has been scrapped. I would warrant that more than 11000 livelihoods would be in jeopardy if this moron got his way."

People lose their livelihoods every day in the name of corporate greed. Surely helping to rid the world of WMD is a more worthwhile cause than preserving private profit.

328

King O The Picts,

Heaven 28/06/2009 13:30:53
All hail David D@#k head Cameron.
They have just handed us independence on a plate.
You just have to sit back and quietly admire this level of stupidity.
Thanks Dave.
329

livilion,

livingston 28/06/2009 13:33:01
#333 fat lord prodder

PPP/PFI is history now because in future they will not be able to be shunted off the balance sheet and hidden. eg the UK National Nebt is now triple or more the headline figure(over 100% of UK GDP)when off balance sheet deals are included.

Dubious 'sponsorships' from property speculators to parties in government are also more likely since 'Wendygate' to be caught in the media spotlight.

What is more, shoddy buildings and public works obtained on the 'never-never' will soon be having to be replaced(how many more 'Forth Road Bridges' are out there?) before they've been paid for, and when they do the reaction from the electorate can probably be gauged by the current Westminster expenses storm.

Fool me once...
330

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 13:38:02
#334 fat lord prodder

More or less...But some more than others.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/revelation/billions_to_be_ceaselessly_tortured_for_eternity/rv20_11.html
331

The Tin Man,

28/06/2009 13:40:04
#334 Prodder

Indeed, one may as well let out one's paedophellia BNP Nazi extremeist holocaust denier inner wide-boy, and allow it free reign, as an eternal roasting is inevitable, anyway.

Soar Rangers, but in Gaelic, and not on Sundays.
332

E1izabeth,

Inverclyde 28/06/2009 13:47:36
So David Cameron INSISTS that Holyrood should not interfere. This should be taken as a warning to all Scots of how life will be if Cameron gets to power if this is how much he’s throwing his weight about before hand.
Remember Thatcher!
A lot more than 11,000 jobs could be created with the £25 billion Westminster want to waste on trident.
333

livilion,

livingston 28/06/2009 13:49:54
104 Michael N
So the SNP is to abolish armed forces in Scotland, customs & excise enforcement, coastal patrol and fisheries protection in their new Scottish Nirvana? Can't see it myself.

How else do you get rid of 11,000 jobs on the Clyde, other than by getting rid of shipbuilding,locomotive works, car plants,armament plants, steel works, mining, textiles and deep sea fishing?

No, but surely Westminster already beat them to it?
334

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 13:58:17
342 We are not going to lose 11,000 jobs that was a figment of Jackie Baillie's febrile imagination. But the £25 billion could indeed be put to better use, not least to give the conventional army some of the right equipment, something which I imagine the Army Generals who have said that Trident is useless and relevant only in terms of domestic politics may have had in the back of their minds.
335

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 13:59:04
109
Mikko

"Crack pot nations like Iran and North Korea are real enemies and just being nice to them and offering a jar of Highland Heather honey and a bottle of single malt won't stop them bombing us if we get rid of our nukes."

Neither Iran nor North Korea have the capacity to bomb us. It is highly unlikely that they ever will. Why would they want to do so anyway? It would be an act of insanity. And if you want to claim that they are insane enough to launch a nuclear conflagration, it is totally illogical to also assume that they are sane enough to be concerned about retaliation.

Bear in mind that the only nation "crack pot" enough to have used nuclear weapons is the US.

336

morris,

edinburgh 28/06/2009 14:12:27
Whether you support the retention of the UK or an independent Scotland is irrelevant in the sense that the Scottish people (as in a majority of),plus their declared representatives in Holyrood have declared that THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THE VIEWS of Cameron, and that is final.
The Scottish people must now tell Cameron in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS NO MEANS NO !

If you want to remove the nuclear menace give the Tories a reminder of what happens when you oppose the democratic wishes of the people as was witnessed under devolution.

If that does not work remove Westminster.

Personally I favour just remove Westminster and it saves a lot of time and money.
1 You are entitled to an opinion and we would always protect your right to say so.
We will also protect the right of a majority held opinion even more ,and unless you want to guarantee the UNION breaks up by removing our democratic wish to say No ,and it is recognised by Westminster, then you are well advised to tell Cameron ,Hoy's countrymen also say ON YER BIKE.
No means No.
Of course its possible Labour could change their mind(all at the same time under orders from Mandys puppet at no10) but until they do commit the utter act of futility the answer was is and remains NO.

Yes Westminster probably can ride roughshod over the wishes of the Scots, but I tell you now IT WILL ONLY HAPPEN ONCE ! Once will be like Jack (the Last Straw).

Cameron and his tribe in Scotland had better listen and listen good Say what you like, this is a democracy. Do what WE like or this is no longer part of the United Kingdom. That is how DEMOCRACY works !
337

Publius,

Girvan 28/06/2009 14:18:13
#346 Morris

You're talking through your sporran. Most likely outcome is that Tories will control Westminster, SNP will be the largest party at Holyrood (but without overall majority). Holyrood majority will carry on whinging about Westminster and nothing else will change.
338

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 14:20:12
138
Mikko

"...you don't get bullied when you stand up to bullies."

Then I take it you will be applauding Alex Salmond for standing up to Cameron's rather unimpressive attempt at bullying.

339

Publius,

Girvan 28/06/2009 14:21:04
#333 fat lord prodder

You've got a guid moniker for a fat cat public sector worker.
340

E1izabeth,

Inverclyde 28/06/2009 14:21:58
344 Thanks for pointing that out. The only reason I mentioned that figure was because it appears to be a figment of many people’s febrile imagination here as well as Jackie Baillie's.
341

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 14:25:28
151
Mikko

"It's a pity how many silly people here just want to stick their heads in the sand. If Iran gets a nuke it will use it or give it to a terrorist to use it."

Even supposing Iran had any interest in giving nuclear weapons to terrorists, if you imagine those terrorists would be deterred by Trident or anything else then your head is in a place far less salubrious than the sand.

342

Publius,

Girvan 28/06/2009 14:28:10
#331 livilion

You may not like Cameron (I don't like him either) but you've got to admire him for making the point that defence is not a devolved matter. Short of independence there is nothing that Holyrood can do about defence. And independence is not likely in the near future, perhaps not ever. If Holyrood can't think of anything else to do with all the time at its disposal than debate things it can't do anything about, maybe it should have shorter sessions. That way the MSPs could be paid less and the Scottish people would benefit
343

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 14:29:16
157
Jerry Springer

"Observer do you have the link for this?"

Does Google not reach your village?

http://tiny.pl/3639

344

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 14:29:32
349 Har de har. It wasn't the fat cat public sector that has cost the UK tax payer £1.3 trillion was it.

Oh that's right - the banks are going to pay it all back aren't they. In the meantine the loans the Govt took out to bail out the banking sector need to get paid back so all our taxes will rise, and public services will get cut back. Until the banking sector ride to the rescue and pay us the £1.3 trillion back.

That's right, isn't it ?
345

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 28/06/2009 14:29:33
#349 roflmao i wish,sorry im not able to work due to angina
but thanks for boosting my bank balance even if it was a dream
observer i only pointed it out about unison as you said you had your unison hat on
but it shows how blair was 2 sandwiches short of a picnic
oh sugar i mentioned sandwiches with baillie about lord help us
oh #349 i use that name as every time i expose lardy foulkes or prada hinds im banned from here lol,so me fat lord if ye be reading ill let them read all about you being drunk and sleeping in patrons coats lol
346

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 28/06/2009 14:30:01
heard on forth 2 news today that the PM wants more tennis schools etc so that more brits get further in wimbledon comp
frankie boy macaveety called on the SNP to provide them
i remember growing up in glen allan in the inch,and the park had a lovely bowling greens,and tennis courts,complete with changing rooms,but sadly now gone
was it burned to the ground?,or did labour council get rid of it?
how many tennis courts and bowling greens disapeared to be replaced with houses,in labour controlled councils?
a sly shot by frankie boy at an attempt to boost ones vote was it
347

morris,

edinburgh 28/06/2009 14:31:01
346 Im not predicting what will happen, but you are ! Im merely saying what many many Scots feel as has already been declared by a majority of MSPs at Holyrood.

You are entitled to an opinion .

I dont accept Cameron has the right to do anything against the wishes of the people.


I nether say he will do so nor he will not .
Try learning to read !

I merely point out the consequences of doing so could be very serious indeed as far as the Union is concerned.

If you dont agree Okay. We shall see.

The Labour Party are duty bound to honour the committment already given, or they too will be dutbin deposits.

What the Labour Party will do is a question even they cannot agree an answer to, but we shall find out.
If you think you can predict the future how come you got sod all correct up until now?
348

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 28/06/2009 14:32:29
the following from ed sucks dot com
Consider Alex Massie’s latest snippet in The Spectator and see if it reminds you of a huge fat fcuker, who lies constantly, is a total pain in the ar-se and who costs the British taxpayer hundreds of thousands of pounds each year:

*Made, if mermory serves, in Eamonn Doran’s nightclub in Dublin, circa 1996. This was an evening that culminated with the discovery of George Foulkes slumped unconscious in the cloakroom. In fact, the noble lord (as he is now) had made a kind of nest for himself, using punters’ jackets to cushion his comfortably-sized frame and, once awoken, needed a pair of helpers to guide him back to his hotel. Mr Foulkes had been addressing the Dubin University Soccer Appreciation Society and refreshments had been served. Before retiring to the cloakroom he had been in fine voice, belting out the Hearts song while lurching across the dance floor to the bemusement and, it must be said, amusement of all present. Unlike some of the society’s guests, however, Mr Foulkes did not sleep with any of the members.

There is no truth in the rumour that he had a homosexual relationship with the soon to be former Speaker of the House and that was why he was popping up and down on every TV channel in the country the other week.
349

Publius,

Girvan 28/06/2009 14:32:45
#251 Electric Hermit and others

Your comments on Iran make light of a serious point. Iran is a more than a nuisance, if not yet a danger. For whatever reason Iran has opened up a propaganda campaign against the UK or 'little satan' as they call us. Have a look at the English-language Tehran Times to see for yourself.
I fear that if Iran gets anyone near producing nuclear weapons, Israel will bomb Iran's nuclear plants.
350

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 14:32:53
352 David Cameron is doing his best to hasten independence and more power to his elbow.
351

morris,

edinburgh 28/06/2009 14:34:20
357 is of course a response to 347 .
352

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 14:35:12
359 So it's OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons but not Iran ?

We are actually doing our bit to git rid of all nuclear weapons by refusing to have them on Scottish soil.

What are you doing ?
353

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 14:39:22
166
Jerry Springer

"Can you post the link?"

The fact that you are incapable of researching anything explains why you are so deplorably ill-informed.

The government has committed to a referendum in 2010. No specific date has yet been set. Details will be the subject of a White Paper to be published on St Andrew's Day 2009. That's 30 November, by the way.

354

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 14:44:54
175
Jerry Springer

"...Alex Salmond is phoning up the boss of the National Library of Scotland..."

The evidence of your posts to date suggests that you are stupid enough to believe both the ludicrous claim about Brown and the drivel about Salmond.

355

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 28/06/2009 14:46:45
#362

It's a bit niave to think that if we get rid of Nucs unilaterally others will follow.

The most likely nuclear threat to the UK currently comes from a Dirty bomb. Question is: in this circumstance would we use Trident? The suggest not.

What we need is a Defence Review - the world has changed since the last one in 1998: the world is more dangerous and the threats have changed. And so have our finances.
356

morris,

edinburgh 28/06/2009 14:50:59
365 I agree what England needs is a defence review.
What Scotland needs is a United Kingdom review.
357

Queen D,

28/06/2009 14:52:37
May I recommend a visit to my most favourite and rational blogger , Moridura.
I do enjoy Guido and the Daily Mash but Moridura is a well informed gentleman.
358

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 15:09:48
201
mr broon

"Should Scotland ever decide to secede from this unitary State, one of its best bargaining tools in negotiations could well be the very existence of Trident at Faslane, and other military installations such as RAF bases?"

I read a report recently (unable to find link) which stated that the proceeds from the sale of army bases in NI were to be handed over to the NI exchequer. This effectively sets a precedent which means that the military installations to which you refer are to be regarded as assets of Scotland, rather than the UK.

It is likely that the development value of many of these assets far outstrips what could be realised by leasing them back to the government of Rump-UK.

359

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 15:15:50
365 Yes I know I was just noising up Publius a wee bit there, he seems to have gone.



360

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 15:16:50
Smee - boys and their toys. Stick to Action Man he is slightly less dangerous than nuclear capability.
361

IainGlasgow,

28/06/2009 15:18:08
11,000 Jobs?

Its still less than the jobs cuts that will arise from Gordon Brown's shotgun marriage of Lloyds TSB and HBOS.

Even if that 11,000 was anywhere near true, the money for more trident if instead invested in sustainable economic growth could create closer to 100,000 jobs.

In addition not all of the jobs relating to trident are "Scottish" jobs. Many (if not most) of them will be MOD personnel from other parts of the UK who are posted in Scotland
362

livilion,

livingston 28/06/2009 15:19:14
#352 Publius,Girvan

Well, think of it in these terms:
How many people in Scotland voted for Honest Tony's New Labour tories? ~40%
Or put another way: about 24% of the electorate here, on a 60% turnout, returned 41 out of 59 seats to 'New' Labour.

Given the current state of the parties how much of a swing do you reckon Salmond still needs, given Labour voters' propensity to stay at home when they think their team is about to get humped(and the Scottish nationalists' momentum towards independence)to get 30+ SNP MPs returned, and with it a mandate for negotiating the ending of the Treaty of Union?
363

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 15:20:29
370 Oh it's going to be a hoot - could split the Labour Party, it's so retro just like the 1980's again.
364

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 15:28:22
Can we all agree that the Teller-Ulam design for a multi-stage thermonuclear device is one of the highest achievements of the human intellect
=====================================================
Nope. Penicillan life saving stuff like that is generally better.
365

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 15:30:29
OK it's pencillin
366

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 15:30:47
So many supporters and fellow travellers of Rotund
Salamander. Scots want both ways. I have taken a bet with an SNP dimwit that when chips are down Scots vote
for self-preservation and not for independence when they will be left alone, but they will keep on whingeing about oil money (given that Scots contributed very little to the original oil well plan and platforms and now they plan blame it on Westminster) so that they can milk more funds from England. The Rotund Salamander's EU's friendless will come unhinged as a full integration with EU( his plan) will see him no more than a Mayor of Scotland. There are poorer sections in the EU and Scotland will get no special treatment then. May be his 007 friend who is in sunny Bahamas will help him?

Not surprised at all about the delusionn of many Scots here. If Rotund Salamander shouts ( that is all he can do), centrally-supported public sector institutions should be pulled out of Scotland. I wonder where Salamander gets funds to create new ones? From EU/World Bank/ Arab Sheikhs/ Trump?
367

Observer,,

28/06/2009 15:31:07
or penicillin even
368

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 15:34:20
228
Mikko

"Cuba does not "allow" the United States to have a base there; I would really love to see Cuba try and evict them! The USA is there because it is powerful."

Might is right! The philosophy of madmen down the ages.

But you are correct about one thing. Cuba does not "allow" the US to maintain its illegal occupation of its territory. It is just another example of how the US flouts international law. The very definition of a "rogue state".

369

livilion,

livingston 28/06/2009 15:36:24
378 Hagbard Celine
No-one pays taxes IN Faslane or Coulport, their PAYE contributions go to tax centres near Whitehall, not Centre One.
The bulk of their military personnel's disposable income will end up spent with their families and there's not a huge number of these living on these nuclear bases(about 25%).
370

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/06/2009 15:41:08
382 You really are a complete idiot. The anti-Trident stance is supported by all Scottish churches, the STUC, a cross section of politicians, and the bulk of Scottish people in all polls ever taken.

And in response to that you appear to be basing your argument (if you have one) on the First Ministers weight.
371

livilion,

livingston 28/06/2009 15:46:28
384 Electric Hermit
Are you implying that Whitehall would employ military force to sudue Scottish moves towards non-dependence?

Back in the pre-electronic era our cousins in Ireland showed how much that could cost, and they didn't possess the technology or political and logistical connections to switch off the UK overnight.

We do, and it might be as well that Whitehall is reminded of that if your mindset is anything to go by.
372

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 15:52:48
386
You sound like Gorbals Mick. Insult does not help yu when you can't read. I did not mention Trident,
but pointed out the delusion of people like yours- that independent will make Scotland rich, it can unshackle from England -but shackled by EU etc..
373

Geoff,

sa 28/06/2009 15:56:11
test
374

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

28/06/2009 16:01:36
#374 Observer Get him one of these...

Functions;
All of the firing mechanisms are attached to the main rifle assembly - the pistol inserts from the bottom to provide the rifle grip (the pistol also holds caps for authentic firing sounds). The "Rifle" function shot 12 white bullets one at a time via a bolt action spring mechanism through the silver barrel. Three different "rockets" (The green Anti Tank, Anti Bunker and the red Armour Piercing fired via spring-action on the main barrel. The Grenade Launcher was on top of the gun. Johnny Seven also featured a bipod that provided stability for the various rockets and grenade. The stock could be removed to shorten the weapon while in the "Tommy Gun" mode. The toy when fully assembled was over three feet long and weighed about 4 pounds.[5]

Grenade launcher

A grenade launcher is located on top of the main body, above the pistol grip. The launcher extends upwards, and the spring loaded grenade is launched by depressing a button on the side of the rifle.

Anti-tank rocket

The red "Armour Piercing" missile is fired from a launcher located on the right of the body of the gun. The firing button is placed underneath the launcher.

Armour-piercing shell / Anti-bunker missile

The two large green shells were fired from the front of the rifle directly above the Rifle barrel. The firing button is on the left side of the rifle.

Repeating rifle

12 white bullets are fired from a fixed magazine on the rifle. The bullets are fed into the chamber by a spring loaded bolt, one at a time.

Tommy gun

Pull the lever back towards the stock, press the release button and you get a "rat-a-tat" machine gun noise.

Automatic pistol

The cap firing pistol could be removed from the gun.

Bipod

A twin legged folding stand that could be retracted up into the main gun body.

375

Number 6,

Germany 28/06/2009 16:03:02
For goodness sake, how many times are we going to hear this from Cameron. This is him showing middle England that he's the man to put the "Whinging Scotch"
back in their box.

One minute he is raving about how they needed to listen to the Scottish people, next he's giving us the collective vicky.

What a useless wretched twonk.I have every sympathy with the English when you consider their voting choice.
376

IainGlasgow,

28/06/2009 16:07:02