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The Union Jocks

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Published Date: 17 February 2008
WE ALL have our stories, and they always involve sport. It is the summer of 1996, Scotland vs England at Wembley, and Gazza has just scored that goal.
In a corner of a pub on Glasgow's Great Western Road, is a small gaggle of Englishmen, including me. We had all lived north of the border for a while and therefore knew the wisdom of restraint in such circumstances. We're English after all; apart fro
m the hooligans who represent our distorted mirror images, we're not that keen on ostentation. But, oh, that goal… the sheer genius… we couldn't help it. We yelled. Then a pint glass came flying, narrowly missing our heads. Then the abuse. We watched the rest of the game back at the flat.

Four years later, the European Championships again, England are playing Germany. Scotland aren't even in the tournament, but that doesn't change the Scots' opposition – we know that. Another Englishman and his girlfriend are watching the game in a pub near the Kyle of Lochalsh. After Michael Owen missed an easy goal attempt, up comes a local, practically spitting in my friend's face as he mocked his disappointment. Another friend recalls watching an England vs France rugby match in Edinburgh a few years back, when – after England won – he and his friends were kicked as they made their way out of the bar. I think every Englishman in Scotland has such a tale.

This weekend, the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland has declared enough is enough. "It is all too easy to dismiss this as healthy rivalry. It is not," says Sheilagh Kesting. "The lessons of our sad and sectarian past make this clear… There is a thin line between banter and something that is much more sinister."

Her comments will trigger further debate about the bittersweet relationship between Scotland and its super-sized cousin down south. So is it good-natured banter or systematic racism? Who better to ask than us?

And, it has to be said, there are quite a lot of us. While the public debate on migration in Scotland has moved on from the Irish in Glasgow to the Lithuanians in Lanarkshire and the Poles in Inverness, the fact is that it is the English who make up Scotland's biggest migrant community. Well over 400,000 English-born people live north of the border. Edinburgh, not surprisingly, is the most English part of the country – Greenock, in the west, is the least. We follow no particular social grouping. Nor have we come here for any particular reason. We have married Scots. We got jobs up here. We fancied the house prices. Or we came here to go to university and ended up not leaving. And asking around among a random cross-section of the group, it seems that, despite the Moderator's claims, we are a pretty content bunch.

At his home near Cupar in Fife, Tom Gilbey is typical. "I have never been insulted by a Scotsman in my life," he declares. It is 20 years since he came to Scotland, having married a Scot. Their two children now feel "half-Scottish and half-English" he says. "It is all just banter and that is part and parcel of life. It has been going on for a thousand years and it isn't going to change. It goes on in every part of the United Kingdom. That's just the way we are."

Alexandria Richards, originally from the south of England, but now living near Coldstream, agrees. "We all live in harmony. Any hostility is tongue-in-cheek. Whenever there was a rugby match, the Scots support anyone but England. I find that a little bit unpatriotic. Why not support one of the British teams? I would always support Scotland against, say, France. But it's not important."

Certainly, there have been occasional cases of discrimination which have hit the headlines. Eight years ago, Colin Pearson, the publican of the Farmers Inn in Clarencefield, Dumfriesshire, was sued for alleged race discrimination against a local English couple, who claimed they were being forced to leave the area because of the abuse. But this was an isolated case.

Talking to fellow Englishmen who live north of the border, the point about sport and 'banter' is made time and time again – with many insisting that this is only during major sporting occasions that they are even conscious that they are not of local stock. "The only time I've ever been aware I'm English was when I was watching an England vs Scotland game on the telly and I was the only one in the pub who cheered when we scored. There is a big difference between banter and sectarianism and it hasn't crossed that line yet," says another Englishman, living in Edinburgh.

So are the Moderator's claims a little off-beam? Or is it just that the English up here feel that complaining about discrimination is, well, a little un-English? In the only major piece of research into the English experience in Scotland, a study found that 94% of English people in Scotland insisted that there was no problem. The research was conducted by Murray Watson for his book Being English In Scotland. "If the host nation had been accused, under Scots law, of anti-English feelings, the likely verdict would be that of 'not proven'," he concludes.

Most English people in Scotland seem to agree, and they say the Moderator's views are too simplistic. The Scottish-English relationship is far more multi-faceted than she suggests. For example, many of those from the north of England believe they have more in common with Scots than they do with their own English cousins in the south. Richard Wilson, an academic at Glasgow University, who has lived in the city most of his life, says: "I come from the north of England. I found Bolton society and the attitudes of industrial Lancashire mirrored in Glasgow. Up north we felt sorry for the effete Southerners because, although they may have had more money made by selling our industrial heritage, they were emotional cripples incapable of really enjoying themselves."

It therefore saddens him, he says, that the Scots don't seem to be able to ditch their knee-jerk opposition to England. "I support both England and Scotland when they play third parties and am saddened by the anti-English sentiments shown by some Scots," he says.

Other northern English migrants agree that they feel at home up here. "There is a similarity between the English from the north and the Scots," says one Englishman in Edinburgh. "There is the working class background and the broadly Labour supporting approach. The values are similar. There is the shared animosity to the south of England."

So do southerners up here feel they get singled out? Alexandria Richards in Coldstream – who comes from London – insists not. "I've never found it a problem at all." Another born in south England, but who now lives near Paisley, adds: "I have never personally experienced any, but it obviously does exist. The fact that I'm English might be one of the first things Scots notice about me, but it's often the first thing they forget."

Nor did any of the English people who I spoke to feel that their nationality had affected their careers in any way. In 2002, Mark Souster, a rugby commentator, took on the BBC after claiming he had been sacked because he was English. But few agree with him. Indeed, the very idea of structural anti-Englishness was met with derision when I put it to my fellow countrymen – and the rise of the SNP is not seen as a threat. One English resident of Edinburgh said: "There's probably been a rise in patriotism since the SNP came in, but I don't think that's a bad thing. The SNP coming in was about change, not about any drive towards anti-Englishness."

The SNP's firm attempts to isolate the extremist fringes of nationalism in Scotland appear to have worked.

But for now, the conclusion can only be reached that, from the English person's point of view, there is no genuine anti-Englishness to speak of in Scotland. The question is why?

In his book, Watson offers a few possible explanations. Firstly, he suggests, the English migration to Scotland has been "invisible". English migrants have not congregated in a ghetto community but instead have spread themselves across the country, getting jobs in all forms of work, and have not therefore been pigeon-holed or stereotyped in the way that other migrants have.

Furthermore, according to Watson's analysis, the English have also "assimilated" into Scottish culture. There are plenty of examples of Scots English who, after a few years, feel perfectly at ease wearing a kilt. Many others are more than happy for their children to grow up as Scots. And there is no little admiration among many English people for Scotland's strong sense of itself. Eventually, the only thing that distinguished many English people in Scotland from the Scots themselves is the accent, and even then, the Scots tongue has a way of getting hold of English vowels. Watson concludes: "The evidence points to a successful integration… combined with widespread geographical dispersal and socioeconomic diversity of English migrants, the nature of their assimilation and acculturation added to their invisibility."

The truth seems to be that English are only discriminated against because any community has an instinctive distrust of incomers – and the fact that most share the same skin colour, tastes and culture as their hosts means that they are, in reality, discriminated against far less than other minorities. And anyway, aren't some prejudices acceptable? Wouldn't it make next month's England vs Scotland rugby clash a lot duller if a basic rivalry wasn't involved?

Going back to my friend in the pub in the Kyle of Lochalsh, his story had an interesting ending. The guy in the bar who had abused him and his girlfriend was shown the door by his fellow Scots, who were disgusted by his behaviour. Neither of the Sassenachs had to buy a drink for the rest of the night. On behalf of the contented majority of English people living in Scotland I say this: if that's how much you hate us, then let's have more of it.

New(ish) Scots

English people who have flowered in Scotland


Terry Butcher

He may have been born in Singapore, but playing on after a head knock, his three lions drenched in blood, made Butcher an English football legend. He played for Rangers and managed Motherwell, and is now assistant to new Scotland team manager George Burley.

Mike Russell

The most successful Englishman at the Scottish Parliament, the Kent-born Scottish Nationalist was Minister for Environment. An active member of the SNP for over three decades.

JK Rowling

An honorary Scot, the Harry Potter author has only lived in Scotland since 1994.

Geoff Ellis

Creator of T in the Park, Scotland's largest annual rock event, which provides the economy with an estimated £15m. He initiated a second festival, Connect, at Inveraray Castle last year.

Keith Skeoch

As the chief executive of Standard Life Investments, he controls one of Scotland's most important investment firms.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 February 2008 9:35 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

karinxx,

17/02/2008 00:09:59
I find the term jock extremely offensive. i realise in the article above it is being used to talk about people who have moved from england to scotland. However i dont care who its being used about when it used to comment on someone who either comes to live in or is from scotland its offensive. The correct term is scot. I am a scot not a jock. hootsman remove that headline.
2

ratzo,

17/02/2008 00:15:06
Quite a reasonable article from the normally tabloid-minded Barnes. I wonder what he thinks of Kelvin Mackenzie.
3

Merouane,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 00:36:57
Yes, quite a reasonable article and I agree with the general conclusion. Interesting title though Eddie.
4

Senga Jean,

Scotland 17/02/2008 01:04:09
My observation is that many of the sad cases of alleged Anti-English behaviour is simply cases of the standard response to unpopular individuals and the nationality is not the issue. The problem is the mischief of the less frequent cases where nationality IS the issue are thereby diluted. Post WWII Germans in Scotland suffered this confusion of defining behaviour as racist or intolerance of nasty people. I once ended contact with a German colleague by stating he was not hated because he was German but because he was simply a nasty person. He did not accept this analysis but others in the work place agreed that that was the exact position.
5

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 17/02/2008 01:16:26
The term Jock is not neccessarily pejorative it was used for the highland regiments and eventually all Scottish soldiers. Get a life.
6

The Strategist,

17/02/2008 01:27:09
As a Cornishman who has lived and worked in Scotland for nearly thirty years, married a Scot and have children who consider themselves Scottish I can happily agree with Eddie Barnes.

I now consider myself Scottish and indeed like Mike Russell am very pro Scottish independence. In fact I'm sometimes surprised by how many of those who are "technically" English are pro-independence. Maybe it's something in the water.
7

Merouane,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 01:32:19
#6. I think part of the answer may be that many native Scots' Unionism is driven by the remnants of the Scottish cringe.
8

Richardinho,

17/02/2008 02:46:31
I'm all against hatred of people, but I resent this attempt to put a guilt complex on all of us.
9

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 04:56:41
Maybe Eddie actually went out there and surprise, surprise, he discovered that it was only the misguided Scottish People who chose to betray their Nation that we chose not to like.

In the case of AM2 who constantly tries desperately to incite racial division, then the only comment would be leave you Northern Ireland sectariumism back in your homeland. We dont need your type in our country, so please desist your racist bile or Leave.
10

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 17/02/2008 06:31:44
Intereting and fair article by Barnes for a change. Respect given where respect due.

Does the phase 'Union Jocks' not sit better on the shoulders of unscotched cringers and unionist whingers?




11

donald,

glasgow 17/02/2008 07:15:02
I find the term "Union" offensive. There is no such thing. It was, and is, a blatant takeover.

I received the Scots in England book as Xmas present from an inlaw. I forced myself to read how well these London Jocks were doing - for themselves.
12

EWB,

UK 17/02/2008 07:19:30
Some simplistic drivel, e.g. from the intellectually crippled "academic" Richard Wilson who considers those from the south of England to be emotionally crippled and that those from the north of England to be closer to people in Scotland. The expression "effete southerners" smacks of prejudice and stereotyping. I suspect that if Richard Wilson were a Scotsman, his target would be those to the immediate south, e.g. northern Englishmen.

By the south of England, he presumably also means the south-east or London and not those in the Midlands or south-west of England.

He would encounter this sort of prejudice in the west of Scotland towards Edinburgh and those in Edinburgh with middle class accents. And in what way are Highland folk in any way like Lowland Scots or northern English people?

If one wants to pursue such useless stereotypes, what about the one about a well-balanced Lancastrian or Yorkshireman: He's got a chip on both shoulders, just like Richard Wilson.

Including such anecdotal evidence diminishes the seriousness of this article. Either we love our fellow man (or woman)or we don't. We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns, and one's provenance has nothing to do with it. It's not banter: it's prejudice that is rooted in a failure to judge the whole product and perhaps dislike as well.

The Rt Revd Sheilagh Kesting is right to highlight this issue and there is a parallel with sectarianism in Scotland.
13

First Minister,

Greggs 17/02/2008 07:36:36
I am also English and i have not encountered any severe Anti- English feelings, obviously the footie is an issue but there are many reasons for that - media - stealing the National anthem - arrogance, etc.
I now vote SNP as do all my Family.
We Love you Berwick we do, We Love you Berwick we do
14

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 17/02/2008 09:15:27
Good article and probably pretty representative of the views of English folk who live in Scotland.

Karinxx. Just what is so offensive about 'jock'? You could call me jock all day it wouldn't upset me at all.
15

Mikey,

17/02/2008 09:53:21
Mercutio and Ken Mac, perhaps if you thought about it, you might change your mind?

Jock, Paddy, Taffy, Sa**o, Abdul, Pa*i, all pet names for others who are not English! Makes you think, eh? There again, probably not!

BTW, what pet name do the English have for themselves?

I had to put instars above as the word censor wouldn't process my comment!
16

Spotter,

17/02/2008 10:20:39
so this article points out to come across anti-englishenss you need to be in a pub during a sporting occasion??

the same boozed up characters would probably do the same to a celtic/rangers grouping in those same pubs a week later
17

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 17/02/2008 10:39:26
I much prefer the term 'sweaty socks'.
18

First Minister,

Raj Resteraunt 17/02/2008 11:05:04
We have a Property Operations Manager at work, POM for short, and guess what he is English. And he is a Hibee!!
19

Stephen Gash,

Carlisle England 17/02/2008 12:23:44
So in a nutshell this article started with cases of physical attack on English people in Scotland and concludes that if it were not for the "friendly banter" then the Anglo-Scottish rugby matches would be less interesting. That constitutes balance?

It may be true that there are cultural differences between Glasgow and Edinburgh which is why Scotland should have been regionalised in the manner of England.

Rather than Berwick Upon Tweed being stolen by Scotland, maybe Edinburgh and West Lothian should be returned to England and Glasgow returned to Ireland.
20

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/02/2008 13:48:02
Surely the true 'Union Jocks' are those Scots who have chosen to live and work in England?

I've often been intrigued that when in social situations south of the border, some English native guests (across all social classes) seek to identify with Scotland by labelling us as 'sweaties', 'sponging jocks' even the delightful 'porridge wogs'. Mention is made of our alcoholism, bad health, poverty, teeth, and the obligatory comments on haggis and our alleged proclivity for indulging in coitus with furry ovines. Any attempt to debate these English people with this narrow minded opinion is universally met with the delightful, "fcuk off to your own country, Jock."

Now as amusing as these incident have been over my near thirty years of visiting England, it does tend to make me think that anyone who lives there on a permanent basis with a Scottish heritage must have much thicker skin than I.

Like Karin, I find the term 'Jock' offensive particularly when used in the pejorative sense. As Mikey at #16 what pet name do the English have for themselves, indeed what pet name does any other country have for the English?
21

phil anscombe,

Dundee 17/02/2008 14:19:39
OscarMacApfel,Dumfries 17/02/2008 13:48:02, writes, "Surely the true 'Union Jocks' are those Scots who have chosen to live and work in England?"

NO. They are called, 'Anglos'.
22

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/02/2008 15:33:35
Do you mean Anglo Jocks, Phil?
23

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 17/02/2008 15:36:20
Has it ever occurred to any of the anti-Anglo Scots that many of us went to England to work with the intention of returning to Scotland. However, circumstances change and children grow up in England and marry English partners and have children who are educated in England, which by now they consider their home. The original migrants to the south are left with the choice of returning to Scotland on their own or remaining in the south with their families. I doubt if many would put their place of domicile above their family. This is the main reason that one third of the population of England has Scottish blood in their veins. I am surrounded by fellow Scots in this area who are in that position. Does that make us any less Scottish?
24

EWB,

UK 17/02/2008 15:43:32
Why is there no mention of Scotland on Sunday columnist Hounslow-born Hardeep Singh Kohli in the column about "English people who have flowered in Scotland"?

25

saneatheist,

Shetland 17/02/2008 15:55:18

[OscarMacApfel,
what pet name do the English have for themselves, indeed what pet name does any other country have for the English?]For themselves, scouser, geordie, brummie, cockney, jam eater, sheepsha**er et al.
Other countries? Limey, Pommie, Soothmoother et al.
26

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/02/2008 16:22:03
#26 saneatheist

Can't say I've heard of Soothoother or jameater before!

Not really looking for regional variations. As the English appear to be the originators of "Spick, Dago, wWog, Frog, Kraut, Eyetie, Pakki, Nignog, Yidd, Chinky, Paddy, Taffy and of course Jock", one would have thought their nation could be summed up in as dismissive a way, no?

27

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 17:07:58
27
I'm tempted...Oscar...tempted.

But of course it is not the English who are at fault, but certain attitudes; saying England meaning Britain, Jimmy Hill, the "upper" classes, Jimmy Hill and cricket.And Jimmy Hill.

Toe poke my @rse.(Not literally:-)

28

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 17:25:52
22 phil anscombe,Dundee

I lived in London for many years and only heard the term 'Anglo' when a British agreement had been reached.

To the natives I was a 'sweaty'
29

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/02/2008 18:38:14
Surely the headline should have been "Engs in Jockland"?
30

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/02/2008 18:54:54
Another comment in afterthought. 400,000 Engs in Scotland is the equivalent of 12.5% of the population.

Can't see the same tolerance from south of the border ti a similar situation from one ethnic group in such a short time, can you Eddie?
31

Hugo of Garven,

17/02/2008 18:59:42
"For example, many of those from the north of England believe they have more in common with Scots than they do with their own English cousins in the south."

This indeed has been my experience. All too often we Scots 'attack' England (hence appearing anti-English) when the 'attack' should be against Londonopolis.
32

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 17/02/2008 21:30:41
#30 I think you will discover that there are many more than 400,000 Scots living in England, but no English paper contains the anti-Scots vitriol that is to be found in the columns of postings in Scottish papers against the English every day of the week. Scots have been living in England for centuries with even William Burns, younger brother of Robert seeking work in London with his brother's blessing. Scotland is rapidly deteriorating into a country where the animosity between the Nationalists and everybody else will cause self-destruction. #31 is correct in his observation that the problem lies with London, but almost every region in England suffers from the arrogance and ignorance that comes from Westminster and a government that has been under the control of Scots for over 10 years. The problem is not with the English but with the politicians who have become so corrupted by power that they have become blind to what is happening beyond the boundaries of Whitehall.
33

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/02/2008 22:31:47
32, joppa jock. I think you should read my post @ 30 again.

12.5 percent of the English population is around 6¼ million. Think about it and the repercussions there would be, especially if they began taking over all the management jobs and positively discriminating towards their own with regards to job recruitment. This over 10-15 years, say?
34

CRAGman,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 22:57:03
It's always seemed to me that the folk most keen on independence are the ex-pats living outwith the UK and permanent immigrants (be they English or Pakistani, etc. but not Polish).

Folk that have actually lived all their life in Scotland are less keen in my experience.
35

CRAGman,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 22:59:11
#23 - no, it makes you British.
36

Mr Lahey,

Edinburgh 18/02/2008 18:59:11
I agree with #23 hence I need to move back to the North of England with my family to be closer to the rest of my family for that very reason. And the people I know in the North of England certaintly do not want to be part of Scotland. Try passing a Scottish fiver in my home town and see how far you get.

 

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