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The reckoning: How the global meltdown will affect Scotland

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Published Date: 12 October 2008
• 38,000 Scots to lose jobs in economic crisis

• 5 years of tax pain ahead to pay for bailout

• Millions of workers see pensions slashed

• 75% of houses failing to reach fixed price
AFTER the chaos, the true cost is beginning to emerge. The painful price that thousands of Scottish families will have to pay following the wildfire which tore through the world's markets last week was becoming clearer last night.

One leading econ
omist is predicting that unemployment north of the border will rocket by 34% over the next year, a loss of 38,000 jobs.

The housing market is already deep in the doldrums with 20% discounts commonplace and three-quarters of homes for sale in the south-east of Scotland failing even to reach their fixed price.

Fears are growing for millions of British workers approaching pension age who have seen their retirement funds eroded as a result of disastrous collapses in the value of leading shares, prompting fears of a rise in poverty among the elderly. And Britain's leading fiscal experts warned last night that the country would be paying for last week's bailout in higher taxes until at least 2013.

The dire outlook came as fresh warnings were sounded about whether the unprecedented global effort by governments to restore confidence in capitalism would be heeded when markets return tomorrow. G7 finance ministers agreed a deal in Washington on Friday, but failed to halt speculation about further bank nationalisations and even another panic interest rate cut as early as this week.

Last night, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the head of the International Monetary Fund, warned that the world financial system was teetering on the "brink of systemic meltdown". The crisis, he said, was being fanned by fears over debt-ridden banks, but added that rich nations had so far failed to restore confidence.

Strauss-Kahn was speaking after talks with US President George Bush, G7 finance ministers and the World Bank.

Speaking on the White House lawn yesterday, Bush admitted that "anxiety can feed anxiety". He added: "That can make it hard to see all that's being done to solve the problem."

The confusion prompted an emergency meeting of EU leaders later today, when Gordon Brown will travel to Paris to meet leaders from the eurozone nations.

The meeting has been called by French president Nicolas Sarkozy despite the fact that EU leaders were due to gather in Brussels on Wednesday, suggesting that leaders want to agree on a joint plan similar to Britain's before markets open tomorrow.

But with or without fresh reassurances, the damage to the real economy appears to have already been done.

The Centre for Economics and Business Research said last night that unemployment would rise to 6% in Scotland over the next year, with white collar workers in financial, business and retail sectors most at risk.

Its economist, Charles Davis, predicted unemployment in Scotland will rise from 112,000 to 150,000 by the end of next year, warning the country's heavy reliance on banking and finance made it particularly vulnerable.

"If the HBOS and Lloyds deal goes through, I would think there would be job cuts following from that. RBS obviously has a big presence in Scotland, and it made a loss in the first part of this year. The Government has ensured that banks in the UK will not be allowed to collapse, but they are going to have to think about cost cutting."

He added: "The current financial crisis is going to have a serious impact on the economy. At the moment it is not exactly clear to the ordinary man on the street, but this mayhem in the City is going to mean a slowdown across the world in terms of jobs."

Professor David Bell of Stirling University broadly agreed with Davis's prediction of 38,000 lost jobs, and said: "I wouldn't be surprised if retail suffers a lot."

He added: "We can no longer rely on the financial sector as a major engine for growth or jobs. The Government or the enterprise agency has got to be quick on their feet to rethink their strategy."

For people about to retire, there were warnings last night that their retirement pots may have shrunk

massively over the past week. Some five million workers are paying into defined contribution schemes, and if they opted for the default fund, all their investments could be in shares. Malcolm

McLean of the Pensions Advisory Service said: "My concern is people think the default fund has been recommended to them and that it's appropriate for them personally, which it may not be, because it may be 100% invested in shares. But they may actually be taking more risk than they know about."

A recent report – published before last week's turmoil – showed retirement savings have lost more than 10% of their value in the last month as credit-crunch-stricken investors attempt to offload their shares.

Meanwhile, the Institute of Fiscal Studies, the most respected analyst of Government coffers, said that taxpayers would be paying for last week's bail-out for at least another five years.

Robert Chote, IFS director, said that ministers were likely to boost spending and restrict tax increases in the next year to see off a full-scale depression, before enforcing a massive squeeze between 2010 and 2013.

Meanwhile, in the property market, Scotland on Sunday has established that housebuilders are now offering 20% discounts, with new flats in Edinburgh being offered for £35,000 below the asking price.

In one exclusive housing development in East Lothian, a show home offered for £1.3m is now being offered for £200,000 less. Sellers of new flats are now offering rent-before-you-buy deals, while buyers are being told they only need pay 75% of the asking price up front in a desperate bid to find buyers.

David Marshall, of the Edinburgh Solicitors Property Centre, said: "Even in the existing property market we are seeing discounting of various forms."

However, the crash looks set to benefit first-time buyers, priced out of the market during the boom, who are now being offered bargains by desperate estate agents.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 October 2008 11:13 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Credit Crunch
 
1

druidh,

edinburgh 12/10/2008 00:11:38
"In one exclusive housing development in East Lothian, a show home offered for £1.3m is now being offered for £200,000 less"

Ah - a snip at only £1.1m then....
2

The Strategist,

12/10/2008 00:29:54
Dear oh dear these journos are really hopeless.. For example they haven't mentioned that the MoD is currently reviewing all it's commitments to see where it can save money. Will the two new aircraft carriers survive that process?

3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/10/2008 00:32:24


My "Reckoning", is that we will all be a lot poorer and will have to make drastic 'cut-backs', but being the tough old Scots, we will survive just fine.
4

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 12/10/2008 01:11:38
First, this global recesssion should be much less severe in Scotland than in other locations, as has been pointed out several times by our our first minister, Mr Salmond. Also as we all know, house prices in Scotland "will likely not be affected by a downturn in the rest of the UK." So all this talk of high unemployment does not worry me. Even if it does happen, I think the Emir of Qatar will bail us out with his billions, just out of the goodness of his heart and the well rehearsed begging speech of our first minister.
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/10/2008 01:42:54



Don't Worry! We The Scots have many attributes, to be proud of!

In 'Hard Times', we all pull-together, and,....

..... 'Fight-the-Fight'

Did you all Know that our,..'Boy Wonder' has already set-up his Food Farm, to feed us all,?

At very reasonable costs, 'that is'!

A Miser of enterprise! :)

Hows the 'Stash' under-yer-Bed, Boy Blunder,?
6

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 12/10/2008 01:51:28

The first place to make immediate cutbacks is in England's post-imperial warmongering: troops back from all foreign wars, and cancel all orders for military materiel, from Trident downwards.
7

Forward not Back,

12/10/2008 02:05:38
#7 - the first place to make cutbacks is in the public sector, getting rid of the "non-jobs" and "arms length bodies" like TIE, who produce nothing. The public sector jobs to protect are doctors, nurses, soldiers, police, firefighters etc. not the quangocrats and five a day co-ordinators.
8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/10/2008 02:30:54

#7/#8,

re: 'Cut-Backs',

As the economy goes, 'Down-the-Tubes' we do make,..

..'Cut-Backs',

Maybe that's why the Banks are in turmoil!

We are not fools!, we think of our own survival First, if the Banks cant see this, as they don't, that is why they are in the mess, they are in today!

Banks!, Have NO Consideration on Personal Circumstances!

"Phone For Help, if in Financial Trouble" is what they tell us!

And when you Do! they DONT want to Know!

All they Want is Monies we DONT Have!

We are told lies, and are charged £40.00 a 'Whip' for a penny overdrawn!

It is of 'NO-WONDER' our current situation, has come to pass!

It IS the Best thing EVER! to have taken take Place!

NOW THE EVIL OF GREED, HAS BEEN EXPOSED!!
9

cramond1,

Neuilly-sur-Seine 12/10/2008 04:54:50
Good article. I don’t understand much about economics but reading someone who does helps.

'Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the head of the International Monetary Fund, warned that the world financial system was teetering on the "brink of systemic meltdown" [and] “rich nations had so far failed to restore confidence.”'Is this a warning or a threat (from another ex-communist world leader)?

'Bush admitted that "anxiety can feed anxiety". He added: "That can make it hard to see all that's being done to solve the problem."' This Bushism (referring to what exactly?) sort of contradicts the IMF chief.

'38,000 Scots to lose jobs in economic crisis.' This 'economic underestimate' is going down in my 'Predictions' bookmark.
10

somerferg,

perth 12/10/2008 05:00:01

Firstly, this is what happens if you run an economy based on rising house prices and NO manufacturing base. This of course would not be an issue for Scotland if we had charge of our own resources and were not chained to the parasitic Wasteminster.

Secondly, I would not want anyone else in charge of steering Scotland throught this difficult period. I know Alex Salmond will do the best for Scotland unlike the monkeys with red rosettes who haven't got a clue.

Thirdly, Alex Salmond is not begging for anything. He wants the return of what is owed to Scotland rather than allowing Wasteminster to divert it to subsidise the great unwashed of the south east to keep their property prices propped up.
11

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 12/10/2008 05:35:49
Why do my posts keep going into the eather? Is it that I am alluding to the true cause of all this strife?
12

LV Scot,

North Las Vegas 12/10/2008 06:38:05
Reading of Pres. Bush's "anxiety" message reminds me of the immortal words of the late, great Franklin Delano Roosevelt:
"We have nothing to feea (fear) but feea itself."
I wonder if Bush ever heard that?
13

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/10/2008 08:10:33
#7 The first place to make cutbacks is to close down the toy town parliament. The place is a waste of time, money and space. Sack all the inhabitants as well. That would make a huge saving.

The building could be sold off as a hotel or maybe even a Mosque.
14

LEAL,

12/10/2008 08:14:25
Scotland cant afford to subsidise London any longer.
15

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/10/2008 08:15:54
We could then turf Salmond out of Bute House, empty the fridge and feed all the homeless people in Edinburgh then turn the place into another Tiger Lilys.

(I was in there last night. kenny Miller was having a ball, and Craig Gordon was having a quiet drink with his wife)
16

Pilrig,

Livingston 12/10/2008 08:15:56
19 Back to the auld days of Scottish debating time in Westminster - one hour per month ? Maybe that's all we're worth ?
17

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/10/2008 08:19:41
#20 We are lucky London subsidises Scotland.

Scotland is becoming one giant Public Sector Employment Area.

25% of Glasgow is on incapacity benefit. Our 2 big banks are finished and oil is heading below $50 a barrel.
18

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 12/10/2008 08:22:26
#18, Rules - we may well lose the new Forth Bridge, the A9 upgrade, the Waverley Route and much else besides- but Edinburgh Cooncil, supported by the anti-SNP majority at Follyrood are determined to plough on with the Grand TramCar Folly. This half a £Billion, and climbing, single line monument to the vanity of the previous administration was 'justified' as a 'world-class transport link' from the Airport (business users), passing the Royal Bank Megalopolis at Gogar, then on to Victoria Quay, hub of Government and finally to the New Jerusalem Yuppie Paradise on the Waterfront, (sinking like a brick) all predicated on the shifting sand of Debt. And wrecking the established retail heart (now owned by Icelandic Speculators) of the City as it goes.
19

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/10/2008 08:23:45
22 Well ask yourself, what has the Scottish Parliament achieved that could not have been achieved at Westminster?

A new Gaelic channel that is watched by 100 crofters and 20 sheep farmers and thats about it.
20

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/10/2008 08:29:37
When are the Lloyds Tsb board getting their presentation from Salmond?

You can be sure that he will be their number 1 priority.
21

,

12/10/2008 08:44:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/10/2008 08:49:47
#27 Thats great news about your poll.

No need for anybody to worry then.

23

Radge from the West,

glasgow 12/10/2008 09:04:53
Folks....it is an ill wind that blows no good.
You voted for the Pied Pipers and now you see were they have taken you.Time for wholesale political change at the next election if you have the courage.
If you will not vote for an independent Scotland break away from the 2 party system and look wider.
Cancel the 2 aircraft carriers.Cancel the nuclear Trident update.Withdraw troops/sovereignty from the Falklands,Belize,Gibraltar,Cyprus,Germany and most of those 50 other places John Major famously said we had troops in place.
Join the Euro and help forge a new political and economic leadership direction in Europe.If the English can't or won't sign up because of their historical hangups Scotland will ensure the east coast ferries are our conduit to Europe.
All non-doms(foreigners living here) in the UK will pay equal tax the same as all resident UK citizens.They still have the option of leaving the country.
UK citizens living abroad for tax avoidance reasons will only be allowed into the UK for 30 days instead of the current (?) 90 days.
Those offshore banking and hedge fund havens like the Cayman Isles etc., will be curtailed,shut down if possible, and all European citizens and Banks should be forbidden to be involved stashing their money in these places to avoid tax accountability.
It's not a dream.It's commonsense.
24

TonyF from London,

London 12/10/2008 09:08:59
If Westminster, i.e. Tony Blair, had not been so quick to lie his way into having the UK join Mad King George Bush in these illegal and extremely expensive wars in the Middle East, maybe we should all be in a very different situation.

So much gets pinned on bad bank lending on sub-prime mortgages, but how about the massive debts run up by Washington DC and Westminster? We hear remarkably little about them. These monies have to come from somewhere, and so will these hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayer contribution to easing the credit impasse. While the money system occupies itself bailing our governments out of trouble in such a big way, it seems inevitable it would create a banking crisis.
25

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek Australia 12/10/2008 09:18:07
I have just finished watching a special program on all of this, over 15 expert economists were interviewed and the one thing that they all agreed on was that all the MAJOR WORLD LEADERS knew that this situation was going to happen over a year ago but did nothing about it, now the chooks (chickens) have come home to roost and as usual it is those that can least afford it who will be hurt the most, TO HELL WITH POLITITIONS AND THEIR POLITICAL BU#LS#IT. Time for the people to let them know where they stand.
26

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 12/10/2008 09:28:57

I notice that none of the gurus in economics who contribute to these blogs have suggested following the blueprint of Keynes in dealing with an economic slump, of boosting public expenditure and cutting taxation. The "great eliminator" of boom bust of course blue the surplus from boom times so there is nothing left in the kitty now that the country needs it.
27

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 12/10/2008 09:29:48

I notice that none of the gurus in economics who contribute to these blogs have suggested following the blueprint of Keynes in dealing with an economic slump, of boosting public expenditure and cutting taxation. The "great eliminator" of boom bust of course blew the surplus from boom times so there is nothing left in the kitty now that the country needs it.
28

Guga II,

Rockall 12/10/2008 09:36:16
#5.

You are either an ingnorant or a very silly person. The fact of the matter is that Scotland is still run as a colony by the English government, and they have control over all our finances. They are the ones that steal all our revenues, primarily to subsidise the English. We have no control over the money raised in Scotland.

This latest shambles should highlight to the ignorant, the Uncle Toms and Quislings, the need for Scotland to be independent, and to control all our own revenues, including our oil revenues.
29

Upbeat,

12/10/2008 09:45:45
The rise in unemployment is inevitable. But the economic reasoning behind this is far simpler and closer to home than the article above implies. When money is borrowed it has to be paid back. When you borrow to buy a car, a house, a plasma TV , a new kitchen, you are using the ability you will have in future years to earn money to pay for something now. This means that in future years you will have less money available to buy new things then ...unless of course you borrow yet again.

Should anybody refuse to borrow, or find it impossible to borrow again, then they will spend less. Multiply this by tens of thousands of consumers in every high street, and shops will not make sales, factories will not get orders, raw materials will stay in the ground, and those who were required to feed the credit fuelled economy will find their jobs evaporating. Wages will fall and spending will contract yet further.

The whole UK economy has been encouraged by the former Chancellor Brown, to believe that borrowing is good, you CAN have anything you want, on credit, today. It was this casual deregulation of personal spending - the squandering of future wealth years before it was earned - that appeared to show a booming economy.

To say that former Chancellor Brown has no responsibility for setting the wheels in motion to create a feel good consumer bubble in the UK, one that has now led to huge disruption and uncertainty in the British economy today, is a blatant untruth.
30

Pocket Dictionary,

12/10/2008 10:14:45
Send Swinney into a local branch of Iceland, with the Governments current account debit card and buy £5 worth of frozen food. When asked at the till if he wants cash back, well...............
31

James.com,

12/10/2008 10:15:29
What happened to no more Broon and Bust?
32

Buckfastleigh,

England : not London. 12/10/2008 10:20:01
Lots of hype on the fact that Island (Eng: Iceland) with a Banking system dependent on a small population should not engage in worldwide activities. Perhaps the same should apply to the City of London with even fewer people living there... "Put not your trust in ye Princes and London Bankes"...
33

Toast,

12/10/2008 10:28:47
#12 so correct,thank god Salmond is first minister not one of the "red rosette monkeys" at least Salmond has a background in global finance and a brain,Brown has turned a problem into a disaster by his choices as chancellor and his total lack of moral fibre and integrity as PM.
34

Slippy when wet,

Edinburgh 12/10/2008 10:29:21
The banks have previously boasted of having had ten years of unprecedented profits during which time the fat cats got even fatter. As they employ the best finacial brains in the country (during good times) and they got us into this mess,they should be getting us out of it and in future their profits and bonuses should be capped. I dont agree that the taxpayer should be bailing these inadequate finaciers out of a hole of their own making.
35

The Strategist,

12/10/2008 10:30:40
#34

Brown is boosting public expenditure but he's giving it all to the banks.
36

Ken S.,

Reading 12/10/2008 10:34:20
Ah, but the BBC is concerned about you. On the national (i.e.UK) news the other night, it featured a coffee shop in Airdrie to illustrate the difficulties caused by the economic downturn ;-)
37

Ayewhitever,

12/10/2008 10:54:51
George Carlin the American comedian, who sadly is no longer with us, was pretty much on the pulse regarding the set up that we are all lamenting.

Take a look: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9dY4WlxO6i0

As a side issue, I would urge both sides of the 'divide' that is Scotland's small minded shame to listen at his views on religion. Its all there on Youtube. Makes more sense than anything I've ever come across.
38

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 12/10/2008 10:55:26
How the world has turned on its head in the last few days! The all-powerful banks are now humbled to the point that the government will end up owning 75% of RBS/NatWest and 50% of HBOS. As well as all of Northern Rock, most of Bradford and Bingley. 20 years on we are seeing the collapse of the Thatcher model, which kidded us we could make money out of money, financing a consumer boom on the back of debt, asset sales and what's left of North Sea oil. Some Business analysts are predicting that many of the privatised utilities could also go bust and have to be renationalised. We should not be surprised, the 1930s saw a similar collapse, cut short by re-armament and war [anybody for an attack on Iran?]. The old adage about History Teaching us Nothing is surely very apt
39

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/10/2008 10:56:27
20 LEAL
"Scotland cant afford to subsidise London any longer."

Why do people make these claims when all studies and analysis ahows that this is not the case. I suggest that you look at analysis done by or for the following groups(all of ehich have appeared in recent months/weeks)

CPPR at Glasgow University
Oxford Economics
Taxpayers Association
Scottish Gpvt (GERS 2006/07)

All of these have demonstrated clearly that (even if you take Scotland's "geographical share of oil/gas revenues) there is a deficit in the Scottish budget. By definition therefore there cannot be a subsidy from Scotland to anywhere else.

Also the study by Oxford Economis showed that London contributes far more in taxation than is spent there by govt - to the tune of nearly £2000 per person.

Please check facts before you make such assertions.
40

Calum10,

12/10/2008 11:15:01
Stuff the banks - Save the economy.

That is what politicians should be doing today, tomorrown and every day from now on.

No more heads of state meetings giving out bland assurances. No more G7 meetings that do nothing.

If politicians like Gordon Brown doesn't get his finger out and do something to save the economy then it will be every person for themselves.

41

Destroy the Planet,

12/10/2008 11:52:07
No problem for Edinbugh, we're getting trams, the streets are paved with gold for us.
42

Bejjy,

12/10/2008 11:57:08
#35 Gaga

Still beating the same worn out drum I see. Just give it a rest will you.
43

Destroy the Planet,

12/10/2008 11:57:27
Oh and 'vibrant hub cultural quarters' with 'bars,restaurants and a mix of luxury and affordable apartments' and 'world class 17 storey hotels', sailing marinas in Leith, happy low paid unskilled migrant workforces serving our every needs.
44

cramond1,

Dryburgh,no melt yet 12/10/2008 12:20:58
1) Oh Oh! Here we go! Guardian (today): 2 million Britons on dole by Xmas. Still 38,000 in Scotland?http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/12/recession-unemploymentdata

2) SUNDAY HERALD EDITORIAL: Globalism convenient for Brown and Bush. CIA stats post (must read, right to the bottom of the page):
http://tiny.cc/Wau6L

3) Singapore set to be centre of new world order in 2050 (The Australian Oct 9th).
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24467275-7583,00.html

I worry about the world food price rises we heard about a few months ago when oil was closing on 200 dollars a barrel. What now? Yes it's "exciting" but potentially scarier than about what happens to your retirement pensions. Somebody already mentioned selling Alaska and Hawaii to the Chinese. Maybe not too far from the mark. It seems the elites are as clueless as the wise readers.
45

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 12/10/2008 12:28:47
Whilst we are not immune to what is about to befall many workers there are things like building investment works that the UK and Scottish government can still kickstart to at least lessen the pain. We await the announcements on the new schools, affordable housing etc with interest. They were SNP manifesto commitments weren't they, or maybe thats part of the reason for the extended delays as they did promise turning the water into wine as well.
46

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 12/10/2008 12:49:18
The gnats seem to be highly contradictory. Salmond going with a begging bowl to Brown and yet we are told Scotland should cease to subsidise England !!! How come.

Perhaps Scotland should join the G7 and make it G7¼ !!
47

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/10/2008 12:59:53
Good morning, Charles Linskaill, to you and your DYW. It is just coming up 8:00 a.m. here in Eastern Canada.

It is Thanksgiving here this weekend and I will serving smoked ham, "smashed white potatoes and organic carrots, Frenched green beans, and home-made dinner rolls. Dessert will be a berry mixture topped with homemade whipped cream.

I hope my 7 guests appreciate the effort I am putting into this feast. Of course, the wines will be many and various and copious.

Watch out for Boy Wonder if he give you anything from his garden. He may "doctor" what he gives to you and cause you to grow "manbreasts" or something equally emasculating.
48

mr angry,

ayrshire 12/10/2008 13:14:52
#57. You fool, the reason is we have no money and cannot afford to keep paying many times th eprice to have them on credit, ie labour now have us paying £1 billion per annum for next 25 years. There is no more pay for 2 get 1 deals. Our pocket money is fixed hence the reason SNP can do little to change things.
49

Can-Scot,

Pickering, Ontario 12/10/2008 13:26:20
There is no point now in talking about what could have been done or should have been done.

This is where we are and we have to get on with it.

Some of you are quite right, the Scots are well used to having to hunker down and get on with the job. We will pick ourselves up and repair the damage and we know it will be painfull, but we will do it. What's more, if we are left alone, we will do it well.

However, (and this is not bigotry) we must stop all, and I do mean ALL, migration into Scotland from anywhere. There are not going to be enough jobs to go round. More people will simply mean a bigger problem.
Military spending too must be reduced.



50

Ugly George,

12/10/2008 13:39:30
63 Can-Scot
"However, (and this is not bigotry) we must stop all, and I do mean ALL, migration into Scotland from anywhere"

Are you suggesting that we set up border and immigration controls at Berwick and Gretna etc?

51

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

12/10/2008 14:28:10
#33: Keynesian nonsense is predicated on the doubtful assumption that it's possible to borrow our way out of debt.

The only analysis that makes logical sense is the Austrian one. That is that we massively overborrowed during the bubble and now malinvestment (in housing etc) has meant that we're unable to service the loans.
The problems were reckless lending, reckless borrowing and asset prices bid to ridiculous levels using the flood of credit.

If the bubble was the problem though, what's happening now is the cure. Reckless lenders are being removed from the economy. Reckless borrowing has been stopped. Asset prices are falling towards reasonable values again.

The cure is working. Interfering with it can only delay the solution. Japan made this error and 19 years later they're still not completely through their own bust.

52

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

12/10/2008 14:34:39
From "The Gods of The Copybook Headings" by Rudyard Kipling:

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

[...]

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.
53

irenecu,

Kirkcaldy 12/10/2008 14:38:09
I would hardly call it a begging bowl to Westminster.
Quite simply it is a justified request for a small proportion of the subsidies we have been giving to London,to be returned to the original overly generous donators.
54

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

12/10/2008 15:08:22
#58: I think you're right and we're headed for deflation. Though that's not to say that the government can't mess up yet further and print so much we're looking at being Zimbabwe II.

People shouldn't be looking to the authorities to fix this. People would be best looking to fix this themselves.

We need to get to an economy based on saving and thrift rather than borrowing and careless spending. When we see someone throwing away money on fripperies, we need to start showing disapproval. When we see people borrowing to buy something, we need to express the view that if they can't afford it without borrowing, they should save up for it or do without.

Often people buy things to get social approval, so we do have the power to change things for the better. Perhaps it's time to start using that power.
55

just-whatever-eh,

DR/F1/MO2 12/10/2008 15:16:48
The 38,000 jobs lost figure is the exact same amount they reckoned will be lost in the "Lloyds Scottish Widows Cheltenham & Gloucester Halifax St James' Place Esure Intelligent Finance Bank of Scotland TSB" merger.

I read on the LTSB intranet they're considering a bid for control of Zimbabwe.
56

IainGlasgow,

12/10/2008 15:59:22
#25

If one day you need personal care in your frail old age I hope you are not going to expect the Scottish Government to pay for it.

I hope you will still be willing to pay the equivalent £1500 a year well into your 80s or 90s to pay for council services. If you can't afford it tough! The Sheriff Officers will just have to come and take your television away and garnish your pension.
57

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 12/10/2008 16:02:36
Nice to see all the New Labour Trolls are allowed to use the Lanark Branch office computer. I thought it was the same guy with the drivel they talk.

Looking at the advantages of remaining part of the UK. There was absolutely nothing written on the page.

Please give us 10 good reasons why Scotland should remain part of the Broken, mismanaged Kingdoms.

Could it be the Multi Trillion Debt that Brown and Blair gave the un United Kingdoms?.
Could it be the magnificent transport system that Westmonster gave us?.
After all our A9 must rank up there with the Autobahn.
Could it be our diesel train systems that has been condemned by three European Rail design Engineers?. Could it be the highest levels of poverty in Europe for our kids?.
Could it be the lowest age death rates for males in Europe?.
Could it be that our Government in Scotland are not allowed to borrow money to build infrastructure projects in Scotland but local councils can borrow?. Can it be because London appoints a Secretary of State to represent us in London, who conspires against the democratically elected government?.
Could it possibly be so London can tell the BBC what to put on our media to keep us in ignorance?.
Could it be the Media Barons who print biased News about our choice for Government?.
Could it be the Westmonster Government that lies about Scotlands capacity to be the third richest country in Europe?.
Could it be Westmonster killing our manufacturing industries in favour of English ones?.
Could it be because Brown broke our banks whilst Scottish New Labour MP's cheered at their annual conference in ENGLAND?.

No it cant be for any of they reasons, but Im sure there must be some somewhere, I just cant think of it.
58

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 12/10/2008 16:02:39
Nice to see all the New Labour Trolls are allowed to use the Lanark Branch office computer. I thought it was the same guy with the drivel they talk.

Looking at the advantages of remaining part of the UK. There was absolutely nothing written on the page.

Please give us 10 good reasons why Scotland should remain part of the Broken, mismanaged Kingdoms.

Could it be the Multi Trillion Debt that Brown and Blair gave the un United Kingdoms?.
Could it be the magnificent transport system that Westmonster gave us?.
After all our A9 must rank up there with the Autobahn.
Could it be our diesel train systems that has been condemned by three European Rail design Engineers?. Could it be the highest levels of poverty in Europe for our kids?.
Could it be the lowest age death rates for males in Europe?.
Could it be that our Government in Scotland are not allowed to borrow money to build infrastructure projects in Scotland but local councils can borrow?. Can it be because London appoints a Secretary of State to represent us in London, who conspires against the democratically elected government?.
Could it possibly be so London can tell the BBC what to put on our media to keep us in ignorance?.
Could it be the Media Barons who print biased News about our choice for Government?.
Could it be the Westmonster Government that lies about Scotlands capacity to be the third richest country in Europe?.
Could it be Westmonster killing our manufacturing industries in favour of English ones?.
Could it be because Brown broke our banks whilst Scottish New Labour MP's cheered at their annual conference in ENGLAND?.

No it cant be for any of they reasons, but Im sure there must be some somewhere, I just cant think of it.
59

IainGlasgow,

12/10/2008 16:11:45
#27

It indicates that we need to join the Euro ASAP and we need a better, more functional and more directly accountable European Union.

Most of the EU budget goes on farm subsidies and French farmers get a bigger share that any other member state. I'm not having a go at French farmers here but Agricultural and fisheries policy should not be the top priority for the EU, these should be localised policies.

Macroeconomic policy (especially financial services regulation) should be the top priority for the EU in the currennt global economic climate.

Defence policy? Absolutely! Not direct control of armed forces but certainly restrictions on how member states rattle their sabres. Nothing highlights the need for that more so that Iraq. Europe's various defence forces should be for defending Europe and for peacekeeping and humanitarian aid outwith. Nothing more.

At the moment the EU is all over the place because of a lack of parity among the member states i.e. somem in the Euro, some still with their own currency, etc.
60

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 12/10/2008 16:15:11
Ian from Glasgow, are you allowed on the Lanarkshire Computer Now or has Murphy bought one out of his huge wages from London. I hope he is setting up a charity for his mother like Salmond. Aye Right he goes down there twice a week to report to Broon.

I actually think we have all passed that crp about Council Tax. You know the one about New Labour putting it up by 70% in two years while they actually had a council to run. OR could it be the Scottish SNP Governments agreement to suspend council tax for two years while it brings in an LIT which will make 90% of Scots better off. Brown fears this policy more than any other because it actually lowers tax and the English and Wesh People will want the same.

Away and bile yer heid man. Scotlands had enough of you Scots who support your English Party more than you support your ain kind. Traitor to your own kind.
61

Western Gael,

12/10/2008 16:19:30
Ladies and Gentlemen: take deep breaths, exhale slowly and consider the following items:

1. The leader quotes 38,000 jobs lost – most likely the largest portion will be from the financial sector, skilled mainly in moving money around, not making it.
2. “..housebuilders are now offering 20% discounts..” This probably reflects the true values of real estate, since the overdue bubble has burst in dramatic fashion.
3. 36 writes "Should anybody refuse to borrow, or find it impossible to borrow again, then they will spend less”. No, he will not make payments on a mortgage. That will increase his disposable income. Should he decide not to spend it, then it can go into either a sock under his pillow, or into a low-risk investment chosen wisely.
62

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 12/10/2008 16:25:03
So Ian we have a choice eh. What happened to the referendum on New Labours Manifesto so we would get the People to decide?. Yer talking crp.

Now correct me if I am wrong but according to the EU the UK would only have regions recognised. There would be no more England, no more Scotland and no more Wales. How come you havent mentioned that LITTLE FACT.

Now as you know there is no reason why Scotland cannot join the EU on a limited basi similar to Norway and still have a vote at the EU Table.

I didnt read anything on your post about Thatcher and Brown selling our control of our fishing grounds to the EU in return for joining fees.

Any comment from the New Labour Traitors.
63

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 12/10/2008 16:34:44
George Soros the multi billionaire believes that the banks should renogiate every sub prime loan on their homes. He believes that if all of these loans were reduced to 85% of their value and the banks extended the term of the loan to alleviate monthly payments to an affordable level. As he said it would shorten the DEPRESSION that Brown has given us, and the banks would recoup a large percent of the original loan that they would have to have write off.

Now please dont tell Brown about that strategy because we are getting fed up with Brown stealing policies from Alex Salmond and the rest of Scotland.

Vote SNP for Glenrothes and save Scotland from Browns incompetance
64

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 12/10/2008 16:41:15
Western Gael its really good to see a Scotsman coming up with good positive ideas.

It sure beats listening to English New Labour Trolls talking rot.

Only Scots who put their own kind first everytime have the right to determine our future. Thank Christ for the SNP. They gave us the voice that New Labour did in the past and Murphy is trying to take away from us again. The man is nothing but a paid Englishman in disguise ( and not a good disguise at that)
65

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 12/10/2008 16:45:32
Apologies, typing mistake. "it should have read They gave us the voice that New Labour DIDNT in the past".
66

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

12/10/2008 16:52:07
#77: It's an idea, and they're forcing Fannie and Freddie to do that with some of their mortgages. The Federal Home Loan Association is doing some too.

However, the main problem with it is securitised mortgages. Sometimes these mortgages are owned by thousands of investors through CDO's. How do you get the permission of all of them to renegotiate, even if you can find them in markets that are anything but transparent.

Then, that's just how much house prices have fallen so far. They'll fall between 50% and 90% from peak price before this is over. Do you really expect the banks and investors to forgive that much of what they're owed?
67

Can-Scot,

Pickering, Ontario 12/10/2008 17:32:26

#64.

No, hardly. What I do suggest is that people who chose to move to Scotland and have no job should have to wait at least 6 months before they get any unemployment benefit.Perhaps someone has a better idea.

My thinking is that Scotland is a relatively small country with a mostly hard working, well educated population. That is a recipe for success and a good standard of living. The trick is first, get it; and second, to keep it that way.

68

Pilrig,

Livingston 12/10/2008 17:44:22
Don't worry folks, Gordon will steer us through the crisis, with Mandy whispering in his ear.
69

IainGlasgow,

12/10/2008 18:26:47
BREAKING NEWS

Weather scientists confirm that the sky is falling in and it is this that is causing the global financial crisis. Furthermore chaotitians have determined that the process of the sky collapsing is a chain reaction that was triggered by the SNP becoming the largest party in the Scottish Parliament after the 2007 election, not a butterfly flapping its wings in Tokyo as was initially thought.

Seems Labour were spot on all along.
70

,

12/10/2008 18:31:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
71

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/10/2008 18:49:37
67 irenecu
"Quite simply it is a justified request for a small proportion of the subsidies we have been giving to London,to be returned to the original overly generous donators."

Please read post 46 and you will observe that your assertion is not supported by those who have undertaken detailed, thorough and analytical studies of these issues.
72

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/10/2008 20:33:47
How it will affect us in Scotland will depend on the latest news. Short term anyway.

Fred Goodwin is oot, the Eurozone has agreed on a package which will allow inter bank lending (Eurozone, Gordon) and the LloydsTSB/HBOS deal is off.

Wait until tomorrow.
73

ARP,

Scotland 12/10/2008 20:34:21
I repeat my call to unfrock RBS and HBOS by demanding that they drop the word 'Scotland' from their titles, They and their managers are a disgrace to our country.

This may seem a small matter but we have been tainted by their prodigality with our savings and they should be deprived of the status given to them by "Scotland".

For what it's worth, the Queen might like to make them drop 'Royal".
74

Bejjy,

12/10/2008 20:56:41
When the British Government buy into RBS and HBOS then thats what those banks will be, British, and not exclusively Scottish.
75

Marga,

Fife 12/10/2008 21:41:31
Bejjy:
Don't think these banks have been exclusively Scottish for some time. But not to have any will for Scottish consultation, never mind representation, in the matter is quite extraordinary and a blow to the Scottish government and people and to the democratic process. "UK-ising" Scottish-based and associated banks for the indefinite future is a very serious matter.
76

Marga,

12/10/2008 21:50:27
Japanese film seen recently: Monster X strikes back: Attack the G8 summit!
See illustration ("Who will save the world?"):

http://www.fareastfilmtheblog.com/news-far-east-film-festival/monster-x-strikes-back-attack-the-g8-summit-20080825.html/monster-x-strikes-back-attack-the-g8-summit

While not entirely relevant to the present case, the story involves a monster whose power grows with every new act of destruction. Sound familiar, perhaps? Oh, and finally, it was the ordinary people and not the powerless puppets at the G8 summit who took out the monster. Now that probably IS wishful thinking...
77

Rebel,

S. Carolina USA 12/10/2008 22:32:01
Aye, we must let our governments take more control of their partners-in-crime, (the banks). Governments have so wickedly debased their citizen's money supply through a deceitful plan that the only "solution" is for governments to assume more control over their citizens. Can you think of a better method to control people than to control their money, (thereby controlling their food,water,energy,etc.)?
78

IainGlasgow,

12/10/2008 23:08:01
#92

Next will come the purge of all the senior managers at RBS who are suspected of being sympathetic to the Scottish Government. RBS has always sat on the fence over the issue of independence. Now it appears Gordon Brown has taken the Scottish Government's Queen on this one. If it ends up being fully nationalised don't expect the head office to stay in Edinburgh.

This is the start of the process of making the UK financial sector more intertwined and under the direct control of Downing Street.
79

,

12/10/2008 23:45:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/10/2008 07:55:15
#87 asymoney

"in 2018 a one bed flat in Edinburgh will be £200k....."

Unfortunately it will take 2 Pounds to buy 1 Dollar/

The UK ranks 2nd in total external debt. Its $10.45 Trillion in external debt is over 20% of the world wide total of $51.78 Trillion.

The UK economy is $2.772 Trillion in Size which is 4% of the worlds economy of $68Trillion.

The Debt to GDP Ratio is 490%

The Worlds largest Debtor the US has a debt to GDP Ratio of 99%

UK PLC is going down the plughole. Who is going to bail it out? The IMF?

Expect Austerity and Rationing in 2010.
81

Green,

Dundee 13/10/2008 08:33:52
Pappoa bravo

Great post

 

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