Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Energy crisis as power cuts loom

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 28 January 2007
SCOTLAND is on the brink of a power crisis after an accident at one of the country's biggest electricity plants massively reduced supplies to the national grid.
Emergency legislation will be rushed through the Scottish Parliament early this week to allow Longannet power station, Fife, to burn gas as well as coal in a bid to stave off potential blackouts.

Longannet has been shut down after a conveyor belt carrying coal collapsed. A nuclear power station is already off-line and widespread power shortages have so far been avoided because of the unseasonably warm weather. "We're glad it isn't cold," one minister admitted last night.

But the government's critics pounced on the power crisis, saying it was a symptom of the Executive's failure to deal with the projected gap between energy supply and demand.

The Longannet shutdown has triggered the nightmare scenario which energy chiefs have long feared. It comes with another of Scotland's power stations, the nuclear-powered Hunterston B, also shut down, following safety concerns.

Between them, the two stations normally account for almost half of Scotland's electricity generation and, crucially, provide constant back-up electricity at times when other stations are not operating.

The accident at Longannet has completely disabled the site. The conveyor belt is thought to have collapsed on top of a shower block. No-one was in the block and there were no casualties.

But with repairs still ongoing, ministers have decided to enable Longannet to run on gas. Legislation is required because the power station is only licensed to generate electricity from coal.

MSPs will be asked to rush the law through, probably on Tuesday, so that the station can be brought on line quickly.

Government sources said that only good fortune had prevented a major power crisis over the past week. They said colder conditions would almost certainly have led to 'rota cuts' where parts of the country would have had their power supply switched off at times of low demand.

And they added the problem had been exacerbated because Scotland usually exports energy to England. The set-up of the system makes it difficult to reverse the flow of energy.

One insider added: "In terms of generating capacity we are very much at the peak at the moment. The thing that is keeping us going is Cockenzie power station [in East Lothian] and hydro power. It's been good that it has rained so much over the last few weeks."

On the emergency legislation, the source added: "If we don't do it then the lights will go out because both Hunterston and Longannet are down."

A spokesman for ScottishPower, which runs the Longannet station, confirmed that talks had been under way with ministers over legislation.

He said: "We are looking at the options and we are exploring the possibilities of running on gas in addition to the coal which is already in the plant and that requires consent from ministers.

"We plan to repair the conveyor belt and have the plant working again as normal by round about the end of February."

A spokesman for National Grid said: "We are aware of the situation. The situation in Scotland is a little tighter than normal with two generators off. We are keeping an eye on things and keeping in touch with the Scottish generators."

The spokesman said measures to bump up Scotland's energy supply had not yet been necessary. If supplies did dwindle, one option would be to enact a 'rota disconnect', where electricity would be cut for a period in certain areas, he said.

But he added: "We have got many other things we can do before that. It is not something we are looking at currently."

A spokesman for the Department of Trade and Industry, whose consent for the use of gas as a main fuel is also required, said: "We have been in discussions with ScottishPower over this and although the necessary consents are still to be signed off we expect something to emerge this coming week."

Richard Lochhead MSP, the SNP energy spokesman said: "If the gravity of this situation has only come to light now then serious questions must be asked. Longannet is a workhorse of energy production and it is imperative that it keeps generating.

"However this development illustrates the need to harness a variety of renewable energy sources in Scotland."

A spokesman for the Scottish Green Party said: "Whatever decision is reached the key thing is that we need a comprehensive strategy to reduce energy consumption."

Alex Johnstone, Scottish Tory energy spokesman, said: "The Scottish Executive needs to take whatever steps are needed to get power from Longannet again. In the longer term, it's essential that we take responsible decisions to ensure that we have adequate power. They must address the issue of replacing our nuclear generating capacity. The fact a breakdown led to the consideration of power cuts showed us how close to the edge we are."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 January 2007 12:58 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

28/01/2007 01:27:38

For Pete's sake what next :)

2

Statsman,

28/01/2007 01:40:39

I have a question.

Presumably, for Longannet to run on gas it must have a gas supply and be piped for gas.

So why only now, when a crisis hits, does legislation have to be passed for it to be able to use gas??

3

Faye,

Scotland 28/01/2007 02:02:24

from aricle:
"One insider added: "In terms of generating capacity we are very much at the peak at the moment. The thing that is keeping us going is Cockenzie power station [in East Lothian] and hydro power."

What about those expensive wind turbines? Guess we can all get the candles out. What a mess.

4

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 28/01/2007 02:17:54

Can they not just get their coal conveyor-belt thingie sorted or replaced?
Phone the maintenance guy.

5

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2007 02:33:02

I'm wondering why nothing has been said about the state of this plant that a major part of its infrastructure was allowed to get into such condition that it was life threatening and fell down.

btw No word yet on the lack of government support for the Carbon Capture Power station under construction by BP at Peterhead?
http://www.peterheadhydrogenpower.com/go/doc/1141/119911
http://www.buchanie.co.uk/archived/2006/week_35/news/carb...

6

Voldemort,

Musselburgh 28/01/2007 02:43:55

Yes I'm in Musselburgh tonight and back home to edinburgh in the morning ... power cuts are probably punishment for not wanting to vote labour in the forthcoming elections (that is if they decide to have them ie not delay them indefinitely through some other corrupt scam or another)

Who says big bro isn't trying to force your hand ... LIB LAB SNP = DISASTER .... for you, me and our country .. power cuts are the least of our worries ! the Power cut that should be made is the size of our government, the leaches and hangers on in society, managers in the NHS, social workers, diversity managers, and NO health tourists and folk who generally take the mick out of out public services .... this country is a mess and 'centre left' parties have done this damage .. when you vote for these people you are voting in chippy socialists .. this means if you own your own home and have any sort of income whatsoever you are considered 'rich' and your fair game for their taxes.

They say the taxes are taking from the rich to give to the poor ... rollocks! ... they take from everyone who earns and give to government .. the 'poor' are the folk who really lose under socialism ... ironically they think they are doing themselves a favour voting for these sham artist parties ...

I think it is time for a radical change in Scotland and voting SNP will just hand more power to the very folk who have brought scotland to it's knees through utter incompetence ... I'd say last one here switch the lights out .. but ....

7

Statsman,

28/01/2007 02:51:40

#6 Voldemort

Unfortunately, I think you have a point. I want change but the SNP are full of interfering nannying lefties too. There isn't much of a choice for a right of centre non-unionist. In fact, there isn't any choice.

8

,

28/01/2007 02:54:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 322686, Article id was mapped to record!
9

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 28/01/2007 02:54:21

Even without the conveyor problem this power station is set to undergo major upgrade works with FDG and heat recovery works to all the boilers I think. It'll take two or three years before they're all up and running again with super clean chimneys:
Salt water spray to take the sulphur and C02 out the smoke, followed by air treatment to neutralise the acidic outflow before returning super clean water back to the Forth. A lot of money is being spent!

10

Bret,

New York 28/01/2007 03:05:47

WHEN Will some good news EVER to come out of Scotland?

It's always gloom and doom thesedays.

11

Voldemort,

Musselburgh 28/01/2007 03:07:28

7 Statesman ... you are wise. Help and choice for us may be on the way ... The Scots can't stay this daft for this long ... we need a new calibre of politician. Folk who have actually worked for a living, folk who have been in the armed forces - these career politicians are a scourge that we need to rid ourselves of and we have to stop pandering to every minority group that sticks their hand up and demands attention ... socialists are the worst sort of liars they sing 'power to the people' and swing their red banners and ties - meanwhile they just tax the begeebers out of the folk their supposed be helping and have their noses in the trough to boot ... I wonder how many major planning consents have gone to lefty 'families' and labour supporters ... I know for a fact that Edinburgh would be disgraced if this info ever got out ... not one scottish newspaper or the bbc wants to investigate when the facts are there for all to see .. wonder why!? hehe ...

12

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 04:15:52

11 - Voldemort - why not stand for election yourself?

With your clearly held and stated beliefs, I'm sure you'ld get a lot of support.

Not from the electorate though.

Scotland has clearly stated it's view on extreme right wing politics for over 50 years.

'folk who have been in the armed forces' - Major Joyce in Falkirk perhaps? Really good example.

13

C.U. Jimmy,

China 28/01/2007 05:15:21

Alas, another unedifying trail of single-issue non sequiturs heads its way to the great Microsoft Recycle Bin of history.

As someone who grew up within range of the combined Longannet and Kincardine smoke 'plume', I would have expected an on-topic debate about Scotland's various power generation and pollution challenges. Silly me.

14

Mcsnagpile,

S.E.Asia 28/01/2007 05:43:40

The last time I was in Langannet I thought I was in a old black & white coal pit movie. I am amazed that only the conveyer belt fell down. We could perhaps subsidize our electricity bills by turning it into a museum piece. I notice that no mention was made of the safety reasons for shutting down Hunterston B??. Cockenzie station was supposed to shut down in the nineties seems that Torness with 1190 MW was not up to the job.
The truth is, it would take more than 1600 wind turbines on a windy day to replace Longannet in fact taking in to account effective annual average available power output from wind sources it would take more like three thousand wind turbines If the wind stops get the candles and clear the fridge. As for Hydro it is nice but not in the ball park.

15

Guga,

Rockall 28/01/2007 06:59:06

It is amazing that one wee accident in one power station can threaten power supplies to the whole of Scotland.

They say "the problem had been exacerbated because Scotland usually exports energy to England. The set-up of the system makes it difficult to reverse the flow of energy".

Why? If proper forward planning had been done, that situation would have been allowed for, however remote. We should be able to get energy back from England in an emergency; or from Ireland. Forward planning would also have allowed for the use of gas in an emergency, without having to run to the parliament and DTI.

Ultimately the Scottish Executive are responsible for this mess. They should be able to fix a broken conveyor belt in about a week, not a month. However, that would also imply some forward planning, and obviously wee Joke McConnell and his band of numpties wouldn't know forward planning if it jumped up and bit them on the bum.

16

Grant,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 07:30:28

Yet another Union dividend, no doubt.

17

Curious,

Lillieleaf 28/01/2007 07:33:14

This potential debacle sums up the total incompetence of the Executive. If they spent more time on things that matter and less time on PC activities we would all be better off.

18

john montgomery,

28/01/2007 07:47:44

we need more nuclear stations as part of an overall power supply alongside renewables and coal etc.

19

maijabs,

E. Lothian 28/01/2007 08:15:30

'...difficult to reverse the flow of energy.' Lies!!!

The U.K. has a NATIONAL GRID that can send energy to all locations, so who is telling porkies and, more to the point, why?

20

Sholtodhr,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 08:16:28

#10
Dont worry about good news. Here is some: Scotland remains a beautiful place with wonderful people recently improved by an infusion of very friendly eastern europeans (especially Poles in Leith). Most things are great. However as all the commenters largely point out: none of that can be attributed to the place men and nomenklature of politicians, public sector and assorted Labour and SNP placemen

21

Agent 99,

28/01/2007 08:25:53

[18] Guga: Mornin'. "It is amazing that one wee accident in one power station can threaten power supplies to the whole of Scotland."

This is an "unfortunate" set of events where another major power source (Hunterston) is temporarily out of action due to cracked pipework in a cooling unit.

The only lesson here is not to leave planning of strategic issues to the kind of wishy-washy tosspots that occupy our higher political echelons. Their current track record demonstates a lamentable lack of any sort of planning at all; what they have done being more symptomatic of the british "muddle through" mentality.

Ultimately a bitter pill, but now I do feel vindicated in my stance against this idiotic carpet of turbines that is being rolled out over our whole country.

Will the BWEA now admit that their toys are just that, a completely unserious response to a critical problem? Given their past lobotomised comments I doubt it.

I further doubt that MSPs will publically admit that the direction they gave the power industry was woefully incorrect. Throwing a raft of cash at it via the ROCs scam does not in the least represent a recognisable manifestation of planning.

Illustrated by the desperate scramble to pass enabling legislation to allow the museum piece Longannet to run on gas, the fact that no one there [hollyrood] was able to think even half a step ahead and plan for this contingency does not fill me with any confidence whatsoever that we will not suffer widespread power outages very soon.

I'd suggest a trip to B&Q to look at the microgeneration kit they offer. A tad expensive, but what price peace of mind?

22

,

28/01/2007 08:28:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 322907, Article id was mapped to record!
23

Cadgers,

Perth 28/01/2007 08:39:00

"MSPs will be asked to rush the law through, probably on Tuesday, so that the station can be brought on line quickly."
Oh jeezzzzz, now I've heard it all. Can they spell the word rush? Do they know what it means? The only time these numpties rush is to the limos to go home on a Friday afternoon, or is it a Thursday?

24

Ted,

28/01/2007 08:50:20

Well said, Dugald and C U Jimmy. I'd be interested in a discussion about grid capacity, alternative forms of generation, and ways to reduce our energy usage. I'd even have preferred a serious attempt to make the nuclear case than the massive amount of half-witted non-sequiters we're instead subjected to.

Here's one thought on topic for you all, though.

The problem here appears to be that relying on five major power plants (Torness, Hunterston, Peterhead, Cockenzie and Longannet) leaves us exposed when two go down by coincidence. Should the solution to this not be to rely on more decentralised energy, like wind, wave, and smaller capacity plant nearer to population centres?

25

sceptic,

duddingston 28/01/2007 08:57:32

Surprised that this can happen when the wind is blowing so strongly the last few days. Methinks it is time we started on another nuclear station before we need these aweful, polluting, candles.

26

MickyFinn,

Livingston 28/01/2007 09:07:36

Agree with Ted, more investment into the water and wind. If the last few months are to go by the turbines would be at full capacity! That is something we have in Scotland a lot of water and wind!
However we could also go back in time and return to coal, which again we have in abundance, nowadays it would be probably opencast but look at the benefits more employment and not having to rely on other methods ie Nuclear etc!

27

Scaramouche,

28/01/2007 09:25:52

They say doon at Longannet
The work is very fine
A conveyor belt goat broken
And noo we're oan short time
Oh there's nae poo'er comin doon the line
Dae ye want nuke-yilar
We dinnae want nuke-yilar
Too bad it's nuke-yilar
That's whit yer gettin anywey!

adapted from the popular song "Dungavel".

Seriously though, wind and wave power are not advanced enough to replace a nuclear reactor and its product. Nor will they ever be. And I don't want stupid turbines jutting into the sky and cluttering up my country.

Sorry, people, nuclear IS the way forward. We need fusion not fission though ...... asap!!

28

,

28/01/2007 09:45:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

,

28/01/2007 09:49:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

Real kilts,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 10:11:22

Put Joke Maconnells mouth on the pipe

31

Robert Law,

DUNDEE 28/01/2007 10:12:44

so suprise suprise the system is set up to export power from scotland to england , so if we have a major problem with the loss of one of our power stations , power will stil be sent south menwhile in scotland there will be selected power cuts ?

all part of the union dividend ,it is time we grew up and stand on our own feet it's time for independence

32

Harbinger,

Fantasy Island 28/01/2007 10:14:10

They're pleased we've had a mild winter, (so far), but they will be back on the global warming bandwagon next week when the feeding frenzy starts about the new IPCC report.

Funny thing about wind turbines, they don't like the wind, at least not above 50-55mph. With all the gales at around 70mph they had to be shut down and when it's calm they don't deliver until the wiind is above 10mph.

A good idea to put them nearer to where people live, there will be less of them built because of greater opposition. Much bigger subscription base for Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth. If they didn't oppose waste incineration there would be a three fold benefit of power, waste disposal, and effective recycling including reclamation of metals and safe use of ash in construction. Tylsley in Birmingham supplies power to a million people, consistently. How many turbines to match that?

Few townies mind the destruction of the natural environment with these white elephant turbines, out of immediate sight, out of mind. Plus all the extra power lines needed to take the power they do produce, from remote areas to population centres, what a major destruction of the environment they profess to be saving.

33

Swilly Tisher,

Loch Maree 28/01/2007 10:15:11

Fear not the impending power crisis. Chill out instead with a copy of today's outstanding winterscape supplement in today's Scotland on Sunday ; a truly remarkable effort. Well done to all concerned.

34

Ray Holroyd,

28/01/2007 10:30:50

What caused the conveyor to collapse? many power stations, oil refineries, chemical plants are at the end of their working life expectancy,real serious questions need to ne asked into how this place got into such a state where the conveyor collapsed!!!

35

Steve Campbell,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 10:33:39

This incident further underlies the total uselessness of wind generation. Wind is unreliable in the extreme and cannot be expected to perform at time of crisis.

For every megawatt of power generated by wind we need subsidy because it is not commercially viable. Then on top of this we need another megawatt of rapid-start generation capacity to plug the gap when there is no wind. There are times, even in winter, when the whole of the UK is becalmed and there is virtually no wind-generated electricity being supplied to the national grid.

Commentators on the Scotsman article seem completely ignorant of these facts and the politicians either don’t know or are hiding their head in the sands.

Further reliance on wind generation will exacerbate crises like the one we presently face. Similarly reliance on few very large power stations is clearly a strategic blunder. We also know that the civil service overpriced wave /tidal generation to make nuclear appear a more viable option has also made matters worse. In addition pumped storage systems can be shown to be are grossly inefficient if the proper calculations are done.

What is the answer? There is no simple and cheap answer if we also wish to keep to our international agreements on carbon dioxide emissions. The fact that politicians have failed to grasp the nettle of mandating increased efficiencies of consumption due to their electoral unpopularity merely compounds the situation.

36

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 28/01/2007 10:39:27

This presents a perfect opportunity to increase the renewable capacity. Leave the Coal burning monster offline and introduce more environmental friendly alternatives.

37

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 10:48:34

made it back home!

Bill, dunblane ... there is nothing extreme nor indeed necessariity right wing about asking people to take responsibility for their actions, not to rely on the state for handouts, and appealing for small inexpensive government that doesn't interfere with daily life in an unnecessary way.

Maybe you have a point ... maybe more folk from the forum should stand in politics ... come hell or high water I am sure we could do a better job than the imbeciles that are there at the moment.

I think there will be more support for a centre right party with common sense values who doesn't lie to the electorate than you think ... LIB LAB SNP are going to ruin this country and turn us into a nation of handout junkies ...

the last 50 years .. well dwell in the past if you must .. the next 50 years will be much different ...

38

HA,

28/01/2007 10:48:55

"And they added the problem had been exacerbated because Scotland usually exports energy to England. The set-up of the system makes it difficult to reverse the flow of energy. "

If we need any emergency resolution it should be make it mandatory that Scottish electricity generators STOP exporting electricity to England if we are faced with power cuts in Scotland. SNP please organise.

Instead of wasting money throwing it at ROCs to enable wind companies to make massive profits, our money should be spent on ensuring that we can hold onto our electricity as needed.

If Westminster was responsible for this fiasco there would be public uproar, but because our "own parliament" has allowed this situation to arise not enough is being said or done

Tragic.

39

Keke,

Peterhead 28/01/2007 10:50:19

Why do we send money to third world countries when we are one in all but name ourselves. This government have known about the developing power crisis for years. We should have been building nuclear power stations for the last 10 years as a stop-gap until the more eco-friendly systems get their act together. Nuclear isn't a preferred option, but it's better than relying on French and Russian power. Instead of burning dead cows for power ... how about burning useless politicians, or even just just Prescot ... there's enough of him to keep a power station going for years.

40

Am-Bodach,

28/01/2007 10:51:46

What about all those turbines on the not so bonny Braes of Doune? and Crystal Rigg? And .....? Ah, no wind = no power - I assume this truism is buried somewhere in windustry small print. Better get used to it folks. The organisation with the greatest experience of managing wind power, Eon-Netz, describe variations in wind farm output as equivalent to the simultaneous failure of five large coal-fired power stations. Do Tesco still sell candles?

41

Caliwag,

York 28/01/2007 10:57:23

If you are at a loose end today, have a look at www.powerswitch.org.uk
The B+Q kit does not live up to expectations in built-up areas.

Caliwag

42

Stewarty,

28/01/2007 11:04:22

I take it that the export of electricity to England has ceased whilst someone sorts this mess out?

43

morris,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 11:16:51

7
The SNP was formed from breakaway parties (the Scottish party and the Independence Party) from both Labour and Tory.
George Cunningham Graham who was a founder of the Labour Party was involved as was Sir Compton Mackenzie from the Tory party.The two parties combined under a common independence desire.The SNP is therefore since its very creation a broad church which includes every part of the political spectrum stetching from Ian Lawson who was tipped as a possible future Chairman of the Tory party in Scotland (prior to Ravenscraig) and now supporter of independence (former Clydeside red) Jimmy Reid! Im not sure if he is a member though.What more diverse a movement could possibly exist ?
The SNP refelects public opinion in Scotland as do the Unionist parties and is a vehicle for independence (by design) and you will then be free to vote as you wish in a subsequent election once we are up and running,with many of the SNP activists joining the said Labour Tory Liberal and Green etc parties of an independent nation.
This is as democratic a procedure as exists inder Gods skies and cannot be more so.
If your argument is that you should avoid independence because the current showing of the Tories in Scotland is so pathetic that they only survived because of the PR system (which they were opposed to) , and would therefore result in a government which refelcts the wishes of the people but does not allow you to be in charge,then I suggest that you join the Conservative party,who also think that they are entitled to ignore the majority opinion in Scotland,and rule because they have money, and England has elected another Thatcher to lord it over the scots!
It is of course undemocratic and elitist ( if you presume that money reflects intellect which is a very dangerous assumption) Just look at the USA!
Scotland is in the fotunate positionof being a potential power heaven,but before she can realistically benefit from her power generation

44

CB,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 11:17:09

To all the people ranting about the 'need' for new nuclear capacity and the 'uselessness' of wind turbines:

The reason why power cuts were allegedly threatened (though in fact none have actually occurred as yet), is because the power generating companies have contracts to honour, exporting electricity to England.

The simple fact is that Scotland generates much more electricity than it needs: clearly with two major power stations out of action, we still have enough electricity to keep the lights on and send electricity South!

The 'crisis' was caused by the grid system being set up for export, to boost Scottish Power's profits.
The only crisis lies with the greed of the privatised power companies, running Scotland's infrastructure into the ground in pursuit of profit. The system that allows them to do this with impunity should be reformed.

Instead we see the Scottish Executive 'rushing through' legislation for Longannet's conversion to gas. Why? Certainly nothing to do with power cuts.

45

rab, glasgow,

28/01/2007 11:22:00

Aye, the vaccum is between joke mcnumpty,s ears.

46

Greenheatman,

28/01/2007 11:24:02

It is high time that the whistle is blown on wind turbines. As we have discovered, they are not there when you need them! All the talk of wind turbines 'replacing' thermal power stations by the BWEA and its cohorts is just pie in the sky.

The sad truth is that all output claims made by wind turbine operators refer to mechanical power developed by the main rotor in terms of MWh(mech) and not as we are allowed to assume MWh(elect)

However, the sealed export meter records the equivalent mechanical power as electrical power by taking the power straight off the grid.

So with the current energy crisis - can we afford to supply silly windmills with electricity to make them appear to work as advertised as well

See http://www.greenheating.com/page-7.html
for a more detailed report.

47

weeshooie,

Livingston 28/01/2007 11:24:07

well put #34 I was wondering the same thing myself.
all the seems to be coming out of the woodwork just 4 months before the election, if this wally in prison does not scupper that as well.

what do we pay these blundering overpaid idiots at Holyrood for? no contingency plan? absolutely amazing.

I know you are not supposed to swear on this site, but sometimes apathy, lack of credibility and lack of common sense on the part of ministers leaves you no alternative.

I hope to god the first piece of legislation passed by the SNP is to scrap the Human rights convention. get rid of this idea of turbines being an answer to our power requirements, and scrap 90% of the quangos operating in Scotland.

I have to hurry off in case the power goes down on this censored computer.

48

Gordon,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 11:36:17

#44 Voldemort - "LIB LAB SNP are going to ruin this country and turn us into a nation of handout junkies ..."

Don't you think that's just what Labour have done? And the Tories, by removing heavy industry instead of diversifying.

Giant power stations make no sense in a tiny country, so any defects with plant can be overcome without bringing the country to its knees.

Why did this power station rely solely on one conveyer to supply the fuel? Was it the designer's fault - or the pen-pusher who did not see the justification of extra expense to provide an alternative? Why was the defect not spotted before the collapse - surely some indication was there weeks before? Was it checked for storm damage at New Year - or was the damage deemed to slight/expensive to repair?

49

fatboyslim,

scotland 28/01/2007 11:40:58

can you really belive this after the eron scandal in america but the price of scottish electric companies goes up along with the share price take electric shortages with a pinch of salt are they real electric shortages or manafacutured to put the price up after enron you never know

50

millport curler,

the bicycle island 28/01/2007 11:42:28

as I look out of my window and see Hunterston A being closed down and Hunterston B doing nothing the windmills just behind are spinning away merrily.

This makes me think that the Scottish Parliament would be the ideal place for a few wind turbines - there must be enough hot air to drive them even on a part time basis.

51

Evan Owen,

Welsh Wales 28/01/2007 11:43:05

Why don't you pipe all the hot air emanating from the politicians and the 'green' energy lobby to a boiler and use the vast amount of steam to drive all your turbines? Or is it turbans?

An alternative solution is to switch off your computers and read a book while it is still daylight. Oh, and stop buying thse LCD and Plasma TVs, they guzzle electrickery.

52

SILVANA,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 11:43:54

Am Sure Iran will be able to help us out in the future............

53

IWright,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 12:11:54

If this is a news story how come Brian Wilson had time to write his article about it and have it published in the same edition of the paper!

54

The laird.,

leadhills 28/01/2007 12:16:13

nothing surprises me we are all living on a wing and a prayer under unionist parties who are to busy trying to revitalize there last remnants of there dying empire what a pathetic situation to be in we are all being conned and all living a lie as the true has become unacceptable in the modern age Any trying to point out the fact,s and the truth is totaly ignored and marginalised what a pathetic situation weve arrived at no wonder people are packing up in droves and leaving the country and causing a shortage of skilled labour in this land.

55

Evolution in action,

Florida 28/01/2007 12:18:39

This shows:
a) Global warming is not all bad
b) A brief look at a green future
c) 5 million people can not fix a conveyer belt
d) A few concerns about Long Gannet maintenance
e) Scottish infrastructure is crumbling.
f) Labour are sleep walking
g) Smoking, drinking and Trans Fats are harmless if you freeze to death.

56

Erse,

Somewhere Warm and Sunny 28/01/2007 12:18:59

Is this Joke McConman's winter of discontent?

57

Martyk,

SUSSEX 28/01/2007 12:23:00

i dont get it. the uk has a national grid and several very expensive interconnectors to france and ireland. surely in times of need these sources should be available or what on earth are they for ? one conveyor collapses and power cuts loom ? sounds a little odd to me. a bit third worldy.

58

Andrew.,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 12:27:38

Shouldn't there be some fast action here to protect the supplies for householders and hospitals?

Turn off Analogue TV transmitters (except BBC)
Switch off all floodlighting of historic buildings etc.
Turn off street lighting after 10pm
Close Pubs/Clubs at 9pm
Restrict shop opening hours to 6 hours a day.
Actively enforce law to prevent heating of workplaces beyond 19C.

Alternatively MSPs could also get off their arse and partake in a teleconference today to rubberstamp what is needed before somebody dies on an operating table when the lights go out.

59

,

28/01/2007 12:27:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

,

28/01/2007 12:29:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

,

28/01/2007 12:39:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 323537, Article id was mapped to record!
62

ian300,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 12:39:30

Surely it's ridiculous that legislation is need to allow the use of gas. If the gas is available surely they should just get on with it and use it.
It's typical of our stupidly overregulated country that this should be the case - but no doubt our tinpot MSP's will say it justifies their existence that they are important enough to have to allow this. They are just like traffic wardens.

63

TxScot,

Dallas 28/01/2007 12:47:32

We will send FEMA to sort it all out.

64

Max F,

28/01/2007 12:52:02

So reliance on big coal and nuclear plants puts the country at risk?

The sooner we get shot of the lot of them the better and move to a decentralised system with more renewables, combined heat and power and enhanced energy efficiency the better.

65

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 12:54:34

69 - amyx - could you translate?

66

Neil,

9% Geowth Party 28/01/2007 12:56:15

This is only the start. Over the next decade & a half 50% of Scotland's electricity is going to be retired. If we do not build new nuclear in substantial amounts we will face massive blackouts.

It is possible to build new reactors at Hunterston in 4 years, which would just about divert disaster but current government policy is to first spend 5 years doing the paperwork.

In 2001 I spoke at the Scottish Lib Dem conference against an Executive motion denying there was any place for nuclear saying:

"The only option other than rationing is a massive programme of building coal, gas & oil generators & which would obviously involve tearing up the Koyoto Treaty. For the Scottish Liberal Democrats to vote for such a policy would be, & would be seen to be, grossly irresponsible."

In reply Ross Finnie, speaking on behalf of the leadership guaranteed no blackouts would be "allowed".

I stand by my statement - politicians, of all parties, have averted their eyes from reality & expert advice & as a direct result we face massive blackouts & hypothermia deaths.

I would be interested in knowing if MrFinnie & his associates equally stand by their guarantee.
http://a-place-to-stand.blogspot.com/2006/09/my-pro-nucle...

67

fimo,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 13:03:15

#70 ian300: How long do you think the gas resources will last if the power stations start burning it to produce energy?

Are you suggesting that we let Scottish Power do what ever it wants without considering the consequences of what it is proposing?

68

David - another one,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 13:10:26

This "crisis" shows the folly of relying on a small number of large power stations. When one fails there is a big hole to fill, when two fail there is an even larger hole to fill. Scotland has been particularly badly served by the politicians because there are only five large power stations (Torness, Cockenzie, Longannet, Hunterston B and Peterhead) for a country that is 1/3 of the land mass of the UK.

This "crisis" isn't a reason to build more nuclear stations, because they take so long to start that they cannot provide backup. Anyway, they are also so expensive that it is uneconimic to have them standing idle "just in case".

Fortunately we haven't relied entirely on a small number of large power stations. The remaining large stations together with renewables such as wind and hydro are keeping the lights on. That's a good reason to boost both of these and expand other renewables. These stations are small and so the failure of one or two does not lead to severe problems.

69

thesmallerhalf,

West Lothian 28/01/2007 13:11:31

What puzzles me is that a conveyor system should collapse without warning. What about regular checks and scheduled maintenance? Not to mention scheduled replacement of wearing parts. What other important structures in the country might fail "without warning"? Bridges, tunnels perhaps. Not a happy thought.

70

lisa,

perth 28/01/2007 13:19:21

How is it that whenever something goes wrong we get hundreds of posts here from the fascist rightists, loony leftists and deranged nationalists. Good examples from all three above.

Do we want the state to intervene more inour lives - if so stop this perpetual moaning about the nanny state.

Do we want the state to intervene less in our lives - if so stop blaming our politicians for everything that goes wrong.

Its time to realise that we are badly governed in terms of vision and capability and things will not change one bit after the next election at Holyrood or Westminster, regardless of who wins. Our political systems do not breed leaders or good administrators.

In what other country in Europe is the great leader a former junior geography teacher at a second rate school run by a third rate council.

Even Idi Amin had some leadership training - he was an Army sergeant, as did Hitler who made it to corporal.

71

c.u jimmy,

glasgow 28/01/2007 13:23:28

We should draft in John Reid to sort it out-----only joking!

72

kameroon,

lanarkshire 28/01/2007 13:26:17

Has the Scotsman shot itself in the foot AGAIN? in the eleventh paragragh they say-Scotland usually EXPORTS energy to England,if we,re all the one country as in being the UK how can we EXPORT to another part of the country.?
Or am i just talking crap?

73

Ray Holroyd,

28/01/2007 13:28:14

#77 spot on. Also a classic case of having all your eggs in one basket,the other consideration with Noclear power, is the terrorism threat. take down 1,2,3 power stations the whole country gridlocked. your correct though ,what about the safety of people who work their, does anybody know the cause of the Conveyor belt collapsing?Nobodys perfect Lisa, we all cannot be all things to all people, we cannot please or pacify everyone. Life is about balance and compromise, except when it comes to safety.

74

The Lyin King,

Rockingham Western Australia 28/01/2007 13:29:09

Once again I have spent 20 mins reading drivel Will you people please keep to the subject in hand as 90% of you are not addressing the problem. I have worked for 30 yrs in Powerstations(gas , coal and oil fired all in one station) What I cannae understand is WHY this station was only licenced for coal firing but according to some of the posts was "piped ' for gas.
A simple conversion to gas firing takes aboot 30 mins from dead to on line(providing the boilers are not flat !!

75

morris,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 13:34:52

70 and 83
As somone who worked in the sector (fuel) almost my entire life I can only agree and wonder also!

76

Sedov,

Scotland 28/01/2007 13:35:39

#79 Lisa. And what enlightened source of knowledge and understanding do claim to come from? And do you have to have a university degree or go on a training course to become a great leader? The crisis of energy is through lack of planning by trained ex university employers who rely on the up and downs of market forces instead of letting the consumers and the workers in the industries plan their own needs. If that is too left wing for you, then lets have your alternative.

77

ddmc,

28/01/2007 13:39:06

Why cant they reverse the flow to England, it would be nice if the journos went that extra half yard & explain which power stations feed the english grid & why ?, seems like investigating journalists are a dieing breed these days.
I thought electricity could be made to flow in any direction, seems like a spin to justify extra nuclear plants & send the electricity south & leave us with the risk's, apart from the fact that this conveyor collapsed a while back.

78

jimmock,

France 28/01/2007 13:39:55

I imagine the numpties in Sc Exec know little about power generation.!! Why in heavens sake do they have to pass legislation to allow Longannet to use gas!! Presumably someone at the design stage had the sense to provide for a second fuel, why cant they just get on and use it as and when necessary!! Sc Power should have followed this up long ago
. The set up for exporting electricity to England is presumably strategic as well as profitable, it seems ludicrous that the system cannot be reversed easily. Mind you EDF in France also export power to England and I believe little or none comes back to France. Mind you France is 87% nuclear in generating capacity. so have a lot of flexibility. (They also build large efficient wind farms!!)
Returning to 'permission' its a bit like saying the excellent Cruachan hydro station whilst generating by day has to phone a numpty if they wish to reverse their turbines to pump water back up the hill at night for use tomorrow. Get these numpties out of the equation!!

79

The Lyin King,

Rockingham Western Australia 28/01/2007 13:40:17

Thank you Morris 84, one of the sane posts I have seen for a while

80

The Lyin King,

Rockingham Western Australia 28/01/2007 13:43:27

87... no possible to reverse the T/A'sto pump water but a nice "green thought !!

81

robert SHIVAGO,

livingston 28/01/2007 13:56:31

WE APPEAR TO BE IN THE NEWS FOR ALL THE BAD REASONS.THE WHOLE OF SCOTLAND IS IN A PESSIMISTIC MOOD AND DEPRESSION APPEARS TO HAVE SETTLED IN.WE DESPERATELY NEED A CHANGE,SOME FRESH AIR-HOW ABOUT A GOVERNMENT CHANGE.

82

Andrew.,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 13:59:23

#89

In this case it is possible to reverse the turbines... It's exactly what they are designed to do. Cruachan is a pump-storage Hydro Plant using "off-peak" electricity to pump water to the upper loch in order that it is ready for peak supply.

Quite clever really and well worth a visit if you are ever in Scotland.

83

Tam O'Shanter,

Nottingham looking north 28/01/2007 14:00:27

What ever happened to the planning required to comply with the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and the spin off Business Continuety Management measures?

It would seem yet another case of "Don't do as I do, do as I tell you"

84

desert lion,

desert lion 28/01/2007 14:02:35

When "clause 4" was not a swear word power was thought of as of national importance and needed to be run for the good of the nation not shareholders!! For every one other than "OLD LABOUR" ,we told you so.

85

desert lion,

desert lion 28/01/2007 14:03:21

When "clause 4" was not a swear word power was thought of as of national importance and needed to be run for the good of the nation not shareholders!! For every one other than "OLD LABOUR" ,we told you so.

86

Euan,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 14:16:10

This really is a bit of an embarrasment for Longannet power station.

They say a coal conveyer belt 'collapsed'. It sounds like that is a bit more serious than just collapsing, it sounds like they very poor maintenance programmes and procedures.

For goodness sake, get it sorted out and get the power on again.

Either that or build some quality, reliable, 21st century nuclear power stations to keep our electricity flowing..

87

Greenheatman,

28/01/2007 14:29:19

Maybe intellegent life has already found us and just when they were about to make contact they noticed that we used controlled therm-nuclear explosions to heat water, and are now hiding from us.

88

Greenheatman,

28/01/2007 14:30:06

sorry 'thermo-nuclear'

89

Neil,

9% Geowth Party 28/01/2007 14:44:59

Lisa 79 said
"Do we want the state to intervene less in our lives - if so stop blaming our politicians for everything that goes wrong."

The problem here is that the state has interfered very heavily for the last 30 years to prevent the building of inexpensive new nuclear (& to enforce the building of expensive useless windmills). They have been told by engineers that this risked blackouts & deliberately decided the facts would go away if they ignored them. They should indeed be held responsible for the coming blackouts & the 24,000 pensioners who die each year because of fuel poverty.

An example of this sort of political interference is that the fact that Longannet can't currently burn gas was not because of any engineering problem but purely by political fiat.

90

Pilrig,

LiIvingston 28/01/2007 14:56:05

Voldemort #11 - Chill oot Vlad !

91

jennie,

inverness 28/01/2007 14:58:08

If all the renewable power schemes (hydro and wind) in Scotland which are currently in construction, approved for construction, or in planning were online today, they would just about replace Longannet's 2.3 GW output. Which is a good reason for renewables.

When Hunterston B has to shut (c 2011) we will need another 1.19GW to replace it. When Torness shuts (c 2023) we will need another 1.25 GW.

That's just about do-able, with biomass, hydro and wind. I assume you all know that Scotland currently exports just under half the electricity produced here South of the Border? The lights that might have gone out if this were a cold week might not necessarily have been ours.....

Anyway, yet another reason to up your insulation and buy low energy bulbs; more electricity to go round then for everybody.

92

Mally,

28/01/2007 15:04:54

#5 If there was an adequate carbon tax, this typeo f project would not need taxpayers support.

93

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 15:23:34

If this demonstrates anything, it certainly isn't the case for more nuclear power stations as some including Neil (74, 98) and Euan (95) are claiming, particularly with Hunterston B being out of action. Clearly, some power stations will be coming to the end of their operational lives within the next ten years, but that is not the same as saying they will be shut down. The only thing I can see that this shows us is relying on a small number of large power stations is unwise.
70 You are saying basically they can just go and flick a switch and the gas supply turns on - which world do you live in? The regulations are there for a good reason and I wouldn't want to be the one who had to go round to someone's loved one's house and explain that their husband or wife had died because someone thought it was OK to break the rules - would you?

94

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2007 15:26:09

#54. weeshooie, Livingston
As much as I am no fan of Union joke and his cronies at Holyrood,
this time I do not beleive we can fully blame them.

Energy production and distribution is a reserved matter to Westminster.
Questions should be addressed to:
Wendy Alexander's daft wee brother
c/o The Scotland Office,
Whitehall
W1

95

CB,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 15:30:02

The SOS (what an appropriate acronym!) is the ONLY Sunday paper peddling this nonsense about possible power cuts.

Just try finding this story in the other papers or on the BBC.

It's a red herring: pure Labour "spin" to put the frighteners on us, orchestrated by nuclear industry lobbyist and SOS columnist Brian Wilson.

96

David - another one,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 15:33:29

Neil (posting 98) is entirely wrong to claim that the state has prevented the building of new nuclear stations for 30 years. There is no state moratorium on building nuclear power stations now and there has not been for the past 20 odd years since Torness opened (the last AGR), or the past 10 odd years since Sizwell B opened (the last nuclear station). The fact that none have been built is simply because they are uneconomic and so the private sector has not been willing to put up money that will simply be poured down the nuclear black hole.

The state has not enforced the building of wind farms either. What it has done is specify that a rising percentage of electricity must be produced by renewables. Perhaps wrongly, how this is done has been left to the market and the market has largely opted for onshore wind.

Any engineers that told the state that building wind farms risked blackouts were not very good engineers. Down south a detailed assessment by the CEGB, just before privatisation, showed that the system could happily cope with 15% of wind energy and possibly more. Further work has demonstrated that, at current prices, the figure is at least 20%.

Pensioners dying of fuel poverty have been dying to pay the costs of uneconomic and unnecessary nuclear power stations officials and politicians have foisted on us, Torness being a particular example. Recently they have also been dying to pay for the failure of politicians and officials to husband our gas resources, but instead splurge them away in a few decades. The best way of helping pensioners (and everyone else) escape from the mess politicians and officials have got us into is to help them save energy by better insulation.

97

Mally,

28/01/2007 15:34:15

Whether or not the weather is unseasonably warm should not be relevant because nobody should be using electricity for heating due to the gross inefficiency of the present design of coal fired power stations.
I’d guess that permission for gas burning is required because the quantity of gas consumed could compromise other users.
We have known about global warming for so long that, by now, coal fired power stations should only be used for back-up, not mainstream generation.

98

wurhere,

ontario, canada 28/01/2007 15:40:47

Not being a graduate engineer, but have been in the trade for many years, it seems to me, the plant was a poor design.Why would there only be one conveyor belt to feed the plant. There should have been two, right from the start.Surely you have not run this station, for as long as you have, and not had to do maintenance on the conveyor,e.g. a broken belt, which could have taken days to repair. Like so often happens,the unforseen happens, such as this, and a second belt was considered a waste of money, at the design stage.

99

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 15:41:50

99 . It hard to chill out when you see the country you love be fecked up by a bunch of folk who couldn't tie their own shoelaces without a public enquiry. Scotland's socialist roots will be our undoing ... we have no industry, we penalise folk who are successful, we are envious of people who are sucessful, we wrap people in cotton wool and ensure there is no discipline or direction for young people, we wrap companies up in beaurocracy extending from rediculous health and saftey setups to race equality laws which apply to companies in the western Isles!! We pander to minorities, particularly noisy ones, and we reward apathy. On top of this we vote in chippy left wing politicians who are corrupt to the core and have no idea how to run a country. They view us - the people who do not work for the government but work in the private sector - as cash cows to be milked whenever they screw up which is tends to fit into the 'large and often' catagory.

As a nation we really need to do something about the calibre of individuals that are responsible for governing us and demand a return to common sense politics.

100

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2007 16:01:28

Two things about wind turbines;

1: Why do they always have to be painted garish white, instead of a shade more sympathetic to their environment?

I note that small scale wind turbines on industrial units or farms tend to be either black or dark green and as such are hardly noticable on the landscape.

I've even been shown mobile phone masts disguised as trees at the Dunblane/Bridge of Allan roundabout on the M9.

Imagine all electricity pylons or telephone poles painted white.


2: If the power from wind and water power is unreliable, why not just convert this energy to hydrogen and use that for additional baseload power generation or for fuel cells to provide power either for generation or for powering transport.
http://www.peterheadhydrogenpower.com/go/doc/1141/120229/

Unst in Shetland is already showing the way
http://www.hydrogenassociation.org/newsletter/ad93sref.asp

And who says coal can't be used cleanly?
http://business.scotsman.com/markets.cfm?id=120772006

At present we have 200 years of coal reserves in the Forth basin alone.

Under the oil fields of the North Sea the Norwegians have discovered deposits 4 times the current size of known world coal reserves, Scotland's sector is not dissimilar in geology.

Gasification of hydrocarbons and the use of clean burning, and inexhaustable hydrogen, would appear to be a solution to all of the issues described above.

101

Faye,

Scotland 28/01/2007 16:17:32

Voldemort. You really need to open your eyes to what is really happening.

The rich are squeezing the poor.

They have too much money and time on their hands after stealing our pensions, asset stripping companies, buying up small companies and destroying them.

Large multinationals are running the show.

So powerful, they now feel confident that after Joe Public has finished a hard day's shift these fat cat bosses now want you to scan your own trolly load of purchases! Saving yet another wage and doing someone out of a job.

Meanwhile, the fat cat bosses can sit sipping a glass of sherry at 4pm in their stately home while the rest of us are working our asses off, minus our pensions.

Joe Public is being ripped off.

Get real mate. There are many people doing more than a hard days work and not being properly renumerated for it.

The politicians have been tinkering with our essential electricity supplies, most of them are solicitors for heavens sake!

What do they know about keeping the lights on?

Most of them are only good for reams of legislation.

No wonder there is a groan when another raft of legislation hits us.

Its getting worse, too many layers of legislation - we don't know where we are going.

We need a good mix of decent, honest citizens whose best interests must be the general public.

Big business should be brought into line. If they want to sell into the rich western markets fine, but on our terms, not theirs.

Not everybody is a scrounger. The scrounging that is going on Voldemort is the seriously wealthy who are diluting people's income, the robbing and demise of Joe Public's pensions in retirement. Joe Public needs to take back control.

The majority of the general public are being turned into modern day slaves. But maybe we might be spared because, without electricity, what will happen to the economy?

Get the candles out, wind pow

102

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta , California 28/01/2007 16:34:29

#71 TXscot,
Don't give the Scots any ideas like sending FEMA. They are in enough deep trouble already. You don't need to turn Scotland into New Orleans with FEMA picking their nose.

But for the life of me I cannot understand:

1. Why it will take them 5 weeks to fix a conveyor belt

2. Don't they have quality inspection to sigma 6 level operating at these energy producing plants?
If they had Sigma 6, this mechanical failure would be prevented. 99.7% + certainty.

3. Why is it necessary for Ministers (politicians) to approve a switch to gas? T
That is bonkers, what the hell do politicians know about energy producing power plants? NOTHING.

4. Why can't they bring power in from UK or France? Is it because they originally constructed one-way power lines? How brilliant is that looking forward? Never heard of one-way power lines.

5. The Scottish reaction (administrative and political) to this mechanical failure looks no different to what you see in Mexico or other 3rd. world countries. That is a shocking indictment.

Stop your meetings, and your clap trap oratory, and fix the bloody c-belt now.

GC

103

Mike1,

Midlands 28/01/2007 16:42:11

Will Scotland now be hypocritically trying to import power from England's nuclear stations or increasing the output from wind turbines?

104

Sambo,

The deep south 28/01/2007 16:46:32

#8 Voldemort
Many a true word is spoken in jest. The people working at Hunterston are brought in from Sweden.

105

Duncan,

Scotland wi conels :>) 28/01/2007 16:52:54

So what if the lights go out. Just think what that will do for the population of Scotland in 9 months time. Just stock up on candles and a few drams and we will be fine.
Stop moaning. Last Monday was the worst Monday of the year. It is all going good from now, come May we will be free, and not have to dance to the tune of Westminster.
Come independence all the hills will be doon the way :>)
In my humble opinion, we need to start compulsory purchasing land and building new Hydro Electric schemes. There are still over 200 potential sites in Scotland.
With that and a big investment in wave and tidal energy, and Hydrogen we can more than provide Scotland's power requirements. We can provide thousands of jobs to compensate for the closure of Faslane. Swords into ploughshares. What would you rather have? Renewable energy engineering in our shipyards or warships? Fishery protection vessels or submarines? Tidal power stations or nuclear weapons? Hydrogen power stations investment or nuclear power investment, given that Dounreay's much needed clean up is being mothballed because of lack of funding?
Hang on we have still to finish of Iran and Syria, there are more people to bomb the hell out of, before we can see to our own country.

IT IS TIME, TO GET THESE CROOKS AND WARMONGERS OUT.

106

Phil H,

Derbyshire 28/01/2007 16:55:17

What people need to realise is that in 5-10 years most existing nuclear generating sites will have to be shut down because their at the life’s end and currently we are not in the process of building replacements. If the UK doesn’t get their act together soon then none of use will be posting reply’s on the net as the PC’s will not be powered never mind the lights!

107

Duncan,

Scotland wi conels :>) 28/01/2007 16:55:50

113 MIKE.

Would you care to elaborate on your choice of the word "hypocritically."

"Will Scotland now be hypocritically trying to import power from England's nuclear stations or increasing the output from wind turbines?"

108

robbie runciman,

Lydd 28/01/2007 17:06:30

this is what happens when your rely on a few gargantuan power plants for your energy, Lithuania and Bulgaria have similar problems. Generation from a number of diffuse smaller energy plants is the only answer.

If some of the old tories, who populate this site and their friends, had not spent years objecting to and slowing down the modernization of energy generation in scotland and prevented the installation of more wind power and other renewable capacity, who knows, Scotland maybe would not notice the loss of one antiquated powerplant.

It also suggests a lack on investment by the plants owners, dare I say, sweating the capital assets of the plant...

109

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2007 17:09:14

106. David - another one

Chernobyl is the reason no new nuclear power stations have been built globaly, not just in the UK.

Short memories like yours, or ignorance of the dangers from nuclear incidents, is why some people are again putting the nuclear option back on the table.

In case you were somehow unaware, Chernobyl came within a whisker of wiping out all human life in Europe.

The nuclear core of reactor No4 melted down through the base of the reactor.

Only the suicidal efforts of soviet volunteer divers, manually opening sluice valves under water, below the white-hot, molten reactor core, prevented it dropping into a huge pool of cooling water and creating a nuclear explosion.

This huge explosion, it is estimated, would have flattened an area of about 150 square miles, killed millions immediately, and made Europe uninhabitable for centuries.

That accident the experts had declared could not happen more than 1 in 10,000 years.

110

Neil,

9% Geowth Party 28/01/2007 17:16:58

David 106 said
"Pensioners dying of fuel poverty have been dying to pay the costs of uneconomic and unnecessary nuclear power stations"

Obviously if this is untrue then it is not a remark which could have been said by anyone who was not a wholly corrupt cynical eco-Nazi wholly indifferent to the murdering of penioners & whom any "renewabilist" who has the slightest shred of integrity & is not an eco-Nazi will be openly dissociating themselves.

It is a lie. A total complete eco-Nazi lie. France has been producing nuclear electricity at 1.3- a unit (2.54c) for many years. Nuclear is, & cannot honsetly be disputed as being, far cheaper than the normal alternatives let alone the "renewables" & it is a heartless peace of fascism to lie about it & thereby murder people. http://www.uic.com.au/nip08.htm

Jennie 100 says
"I assume you all know that Scotland currently exports just under half the electricity produced here South of the Border?"

Anybody who "knows" it has been lied to. We export 17% about 1/3 of which goes to Ireland. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/01/19092748/8 fig 20

The Luddite case shown in all its glory.

111

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2007 17:18:41

Here is a question: why are we content to subsidise wind power and nuclear energy for environmental reasons, but not subsidise the indigenous coal industry for the same reason?

For the record, clean coal is no longer an oxymoron.

A host of new technologies is now available to reduce or eliminate and other pollutants emitted when burning coal.

And guess where they are making this technology?
Here in Scotland.

Mitsui Babcock, which employs 1,000 workers at Renfrew, is Britain's sole surviving manufacturer of steam-generation equipment.

It has pioneered the development of new "super critical" boilers.
These work by raising the pressure and temperature of steam to super levels, making more electricity from less coal, thus reducing emissions.

These plants are also designed to mix coal with biomass, producing a reduction of 40 per cent in conventional greenhouse gas emissions.

Unfortunately, Mitsui Babcock has been unable to sell its new technology in Britain (though the Chinese are buying by the fistful).

This is because the generators think the government is fixated on renewables and nuclear plant, which it is.

Once again, Scotland's manufacturing base is considered politically expendable.

Another clean coal technology being developed in Scotland is underground coal gasification (UCG).

This involves drilling a bore hole down to the coal seam and then along it.

Oxygen is then squirted into the hole to allow a controlled burn backwards along the seam.

The resulting hot gasses shoot up under pressure through a second bore hole and are passed through a turbine to generate electricity.

So no need to scar the countryside with opencast mining.

Scottish Enterprise and Scottish & Southern Energy are currently funding a feasibility study for a pilot UCG plant in Fife.

The study is being conducted by Professor Brian Smart of Heriot-Watt Unive

112

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 17:27:09

Faye, your are right on so many points but fat cat bosses are a myth most football players and singers never get a hard time for earning pots of cash. Someone who supplies your home with lifeblood fuel does get a hard time for taking home 1/4 of what a relatively successfull soccer player earns ... where the justice in that!?

I hate TESCO with a passion for being the ugly side of capitalism which is a concept I whole heartedly believe in if that isn't too contrdictary!

Firstly the government needs to be cut back to a size where the country can actually sustain it. Secondly joe public through electing the wrong people have made themselves uncompetative - socialism and unions are entirely to blame not business - global business is bound to respond by gradually pulling out.

You talk of wealthy western communities - how long do you think we will stay wealthy with LIB LAB SNP in the fold all promising tax, spend, ban ... How long can we stay wealthy when our people are more concerned about banning foxhunting or raising the age to own a gerbil to 16 than dealing with mass migration, reducing the legislative burden on companies and people so that we have a glimmer of hope in attaining a place in that global economy.

We need to rid ourselves of the burden of large government and put two fingers up to europe and their straight bananas and the PC brigade and let common sense rule the day once more ....

I think everyone who claims benefits for over 6 months should be regarded as a scrounger until they can prove otherwise - bar child benefit and the like. Disability allowance is going out to an absurd amount of people - there are literally hunderds of thousands of people in scotland who are taking the mick and they should be dealt with harshly.

We need a leader with 'balls' again - a no nonsense party with a clear sense of what Scotland and the UK is to become. We are just wallowing at the moment .. and the lights will go out if we don't t

113

Neil,

9% Growth Party 28/01/2007 17:35:04

Livillion 121. Your request for more subsidy seems to depend on the claim that nuclear as well as the Luddite stuff requires subsidy. It doesn't as proven in my last post so unless you can dispute it you might consider retracting.

114

rab, glasgow,

28/01/2007 17:37:12

122. Voldemort, Edinburgh /Aye, right.

115

td,

Highlands 28/01/2007 17:44:43

Some sense here today ...much of it actually on topic ...but still a lot of dross. :-)

119# very Old technology, operated against all standing instructions by poorly supervised staff led to the Chernobyl explosion. So there is no need to use this scare tactic.

Technology has moved on 50 years in the Nuclear age. Comparing Chernobyl with a modern reactor is like comparing a D type jaguar - ( remember them ??) with a modern Le mans racer.

You will know of course that Most of the electrical energy in France is produced by Nuclear stations. It is a bit ironic that the UK will end up importing surplus nuclear energy from France . The French will doubtless end up laughing all the way back to their drawing boards, and will dream up yet more technological advances so as to build yet more advanced Nuclear stations in France so as to capitalise on the strength of British political failure. and we will all pay the premium for this.

116

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 18:01:05

124 .. glad you agree .. it all dovetails wonderfully and ends up with a nation we can be proud of ... rather than being entrenched in the politics of envy and tax spend ban for the foreseeable ...

117

Faye,

Scotland 28/01/2007 18:24:04

The only nuclear accidents that I am aware of have happened in private companies, not the in the military. There is the missing nuclear warhead of course and that's a concern.

Nuclear has been providing power for 50 years - it isn't to everyone's liking and it would be nice to have something just as reliable which makes people feel safer - a sustainable source - but windpower isn't working! It is only making companies and individual land owners rich. Very rich.

It's the new gold rush.
Look: http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/eco/vandaloot.html

It is you and me who are funding this!


Wind turbines are turning Scotland's beautiful scenery into an industrial wasteland. 500 wind power stations are going through the planning process, many in spectacular areas of high scenic value.

Some politicians and councillors seem to be selling off our family silver - our tourism industry, our wonderful scenery. What's in it for them if they are ignoring the views of locals and the wider community, the electorate?

Just do some research and look at the number of objections to wind power. There are very few supporters.

Wind turbines are killing thousands of rare protected birds. 2,500 eagles at one wind farm site. Just look at what is happening.

See the pictures on the right hand side of this weblink........
http://mark-duchamp.spaces.live.com/

5,000 rare bats killed in one week at one wind farm.
Our wildlife is suffering.

Employees and subcontractors complain about feeling awful when they see numerous dead sea birds floating in the water under the turbines.

Meanwhile, a Scottish inventor comes up with a working model - a rigid structure - environmentally friendly to most sea animals - unlike flexible structures where se

118

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia,Canada. 28/01/2007 18:30:00

On this side of the pond ,(depending on one`s point of veiw) this type of "incident "would be blamed on: The "Right"...The"Left"..the "Unions".The
"Government"
BUT .. like you, ...there is NO ACTION on a potential problem until the s**t really hits the fan.

119

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 18:51:43

122 - Voldermot

A well argued and eloquently put argument.

But SO very wrong in so many ways.

Why do you think the Tories have virtually vanished from the Scottish political landscape.

I understand that you 'know' you are right, and it is just the idiotic electorate that don't get it.

Same mindset as a certain Tony Bliar?

120

Duncan,

28/01/2007 19:45:06

123 Neil.

The links you have posted are supposed to prove that nuclear requires no subsidy.
Can you tell us Luddites as you call any one who has not bought the nuclear cookie, who is paying for the clean up costs of Dounreay and other sites?
If it is true as I think it is that the tax payer is paying, is that not a subsidy?
Is it not true that the nuclear industry is still owned by the tax payer, in the disguise of British Energy?
British Energy has had untold billions of debt wiped out to make it attractive to the private sector, but still not attractive enough.
Scotland, if we stay in the UK, will have nuclear power stations built whether we like it or not, because we dance to the tune Westminster.
According to what you say it is all the fault of the beastly Greens and renew-ability people that we are not enjoying nice safe cheap nuclear power and having terrible wind turbines every where. We should just have let the nuclear nice safe nuclear chappies get on with it. If they had behaved in a nice safe way, I would agree, but they didn't. If they were so safe and responsible why did they dump waste down a shaft in Dounreay, which they now can't get out because the funding is being cut. The same shaft that has now got a radioactive plume spreading from it, and will soon contaminate the water table, like they have done to the surrounding sea and beaches.

121

dunedintom.,

canada 28/01/2007 21:32:16

It was so much easier when we had gaslight,nuclear is not our only option,combine 'clean ' coal and or peat in many smaller generating stations to spread the risk and load.maintain nuclear as well for a combined effort.

122

Derick fae Yell,

28/01/2007 21:53:21

# 127 Faye
"Wind turbines are killing thousands of rare protected birds. 2,500 eagles at one wind farm site."

Complete Humbug. UK Population Golden Eagles = 422 pairs. Shetland population Golden Eagles NIL.
UK Population Erne (Iolair suil na greine) 33 pairs. Shetland Population Erne NIL.

Potential total Eagles in Shetland to be supposedly shredded by 2,000rpm windmills = NIL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4072756.stm

WINDFARMS POSE LOW RISK TO BIRDS
Scientists found that birds simply fly around the farm, or between the turbines; less than 1% are in danger of colliding with the giant structures.

Writing in the Royal Society's journal Biology Letters, the researchers say previous estimates of collision risk have been "over-inflated".

Note 'in danger of' not actually collided with. For God's sake.

And Fay Wray also says "Many Shetlanders are unhappy about what is happening"

Really, 'many Shetlanders' - how many? Did you actually ask ony Shetlanders, Faye, before sharing dis pearl o wisdom?

As it happens Viking Energy (silly name) is joost employed Ipsos MORI ta ACTUALLY ask Shetlanders in December 2006.

Results:
76% of the sample [502 out of population of 22,000) were generally supportive of the proposal: this includes 45% who strongly supported it and 31% who ‘tend to support’ it; 6% were opposed to the proposal."

http://www.vikingenergy.co.uk/news_detail.asp?item=20

6% = "Many" in Faye's World. tut tut 1/10 back ta schule wi dee.
and PS I hae no personal interest in Viking Energy whatsoever.

123

Duncan,

Scotland wi conles :>) 28/01/2007 22:15:56

Derek Fae Yell. Your comments as always are razor sharp and to the point, for that reason don't hold your breath waiting for a reply.
Never been to Shetland but have been to Orkney a few times, it's a fine place if a wee bit windy, I came back like a half shut knife.
I'm sure you will be forgiven for your slur on their lovely Islands.

124

Faye,

Scotland 28/01/2007 23:44:22

#135. Scientist reports paid for by the wind industry. Aye right, we know your type, ignore truth, the real facts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4655518.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4557255.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5108666.stm

I've been to Yell as well. If you bothered to look at the links in my earlier post, you'd have realised the birds have been killed at one of the oldest wind farm sites, Altamont Pass.

The UK taxpayer owns a lot of land. Take the forestry land. Why should the English, Welsh Irish and Scots, living in cities, who want to enjoy their own countryside, allow a few locals to scoop up the cash?

All these community trusts set up to benefit the pockets of some are robbing other UK taxpayers.

It's time to stop the few benefiting at the expense of the many.

125

robert bruce,

canada 29/01/2007 01:10:49

Why do they not restart Inverkip Power station on the Clyde, it has been idle for years.

126

socialmedic,

USA 29/01/2007 04:53:47

Ever since Enron filed for banruptcy and became known for manipulating the power grid and creating disasters just for the purpose of robbing little old grandmothers of their retirement, I am suspicious. Do tell me though, the power in Scotland is socialized is it? A not for profit affair funded by the government? If an infrastructure is deliberately neglected under a capitalist system it is understood as greed motivated; to cheap to trickle a little of the profits down to fix it and a good excuse to raise prices anyhow. Under a socialist system what could be the motive for neglect? Who, in a non profit system, benefits from neglecting the infrastructure? As much as I see the Lefties blamed for everything that goes wrong I am afraid I see little evidence or motive, for that matter. But when Righties have control, the motive is more than obvious.

127

Gordon,

Edinburgh 29/01/2007 07:14:52

The Tories still don't get it!

Tory policies undermine society by creating an underclass, rather than accepting the reality that people are needed who can do all tasks, from cleaning to running countries and companies.

By the way these are two completely different entities.

The constant demand for even higher profits are - most likely - the cause of this problem. Cutting staff to "streamline performance" leads to a lean business, but taken too far causes corners to be cut - usually in maintenance and customer service (also see Tesco "automated" tills - where staff are being demeaned by the "anyone can do this" mentality)

We are not all equal in the tasks we are able to perform, but we all need a minimum income to survive, and that is what the Tories - and "New Labour" - pull from beneath those on benefits as soon as they start working.

128

Bob Incognito,

somewhere in Royston Vasey 29/01/2007 08:19:10

am I going to have fun with this one-
David, nuclear reactors do not explode, they melt down,and even an old fashioned straight out of the cold war standard issue free fall 5 megaton bomb would have had a lot of trouble wiping out 150 square miles-admittedly you wouldn't have wanted to be nearby, but even at that level there isnt as much damage as Geenpeace and the wind power brigade would like to have you believe-and prehaps David can tell us all why Greenpeace said almost nothing about Chernobyl(I dont want to be churlish and revive old cold war issues, but it was strongly rumoured at the time they were a front for a major player in the cold war)
Wind power, well, everyone else said roughly what I think, so maybe Scotland should go for carbon sequestered coal plants(look it up if you dont know what that is) and make England pay for rewiring the grid so that they can sell power back and forth and then they could get all the Enron traders back in & do the death star options straddle on British power......., and Samurai Celt, I still want your flat so I can take lots of drunk Scottish night club chicks
back to it after my job screwing British Power
using the Death Star option Straddle and play chess with them

129

Neil,

9% Growth Party 29/01/2007 11:56:08

Duncan 132
British nuclear was privatised & then renationalised without compensation in a piece of legalistic fiddling from which Putin (or Byres) could take lessons. Since then it has provided the exchequer with £2.5 billion (thats profit not subsidy).

Dounray was a government run mess (there are many of them) which nonetheless has done no damage. The radiation there, which gets such hysterical headlines, is less than that occuring naturally in Aberdeen & Dalgety Bay.

"According to what you say it is all the fault of the beastly Greens and renew-ability people that we are not enjoying nice safe cheap nuclear power and having terrible wind turbines every where. We should just have let the nuclear nice safe nuclear chappies get on with it."

Yup

"If they had behaved in a nice safe way, I would agree, but they didn't."

Nothing in this world is 100% safe but are you seriously suggesting that nuclear has not proven enormously safer than the 150,000 who die annualy from black lung & emphesema because of coal or indeed the 20 since 1991 in Briatain who have died erecting & repairing windmills. These don't get the coverage but dead is dead.

130

Neil,

9% Growth Party 29/01/2007 11:58:14

Rules merely asserting that nuclear is uneconomic or that the Earth is flat & you are Emperor of France doesn't make it so. The facts on all 3 are equally clear though I will leave it up to you to research the last 2.

131

Malky in Dorset,

Bournemouth 29/01/2007 12:01:09

re Media Watch at 17

I would not put nuclear and crash in the same sentence

132

Jimbo McMukhtar,

McDuff 29/01/2007 12:09:08

Does this not highlight the myth that the lights will go out... Granted we have been fortunate to have a mild winter but this merely highlights that when the Shetland, Eaglesham and hopefully Lewis windfarms come online, wave energy is finally harnessed in the next 10 years and energy efficieny becomes a reality we can forever be rid of the polluting coal burners and Nuclear debate. lets be honest the only reason we are considering a new nuclear wave is to allow Blair to leave us a £30 biliion legacy of new weapons of mass desturction. It has nothing to do with energy shortfall.

Fergus

133

Wise Old Man,

Paisley 29/01/2007 12:36:40

Some comments here are laughable, others make valid reasoned statements.

#72 We need several large power stations around the country to provide grid stability, i.e. when everyone switches their kettle on at half time during large televised sporting events, or the evening peak as everyone switches on electric ovens. Renewables will never be able to provide reactive power to handle this requirement.

#83 I assume Scottish Powers IPPC consent from SEPA did not allow the production of electricity from gas only.

#100 What do you do today, when a high pressure over Scotland means little or no wind?

#112 I understand this conveyor is 110ft in the air, perhaps that's why it will take them 5 weeks to repair?

134

Neil,

9% Growth Party 29/01/2007 13:51:35

Jimbo are you competing with Rules to be Emperor of France.

Why exactly is the fact that if we lose 50% of our electricity we will have a shortage a "myth""

Where is your evidence that wave energy, for which a working plant has been promised real soon now for 30 years will not only have completed & thoroughly tested a prototype but based on that, built hundreds of full size plants along the lebgth of our coasts within 10 years?

Like most Luddite promises this seems firmly rooted in fairyland.

135

Man in the know,

fife 29/01/2007 14:07:55

To all on this blog - post 147 has it bang on.

136

Lucy,

29/01/2007 18:19:35

Two questions.

The new nuclear power stations in, say, France - are they being used or can they be used for the making of nuclear weapons?

#Jimbo
If/when the Shetland, Eaglesham and Lewis windfarms start generating electricity how do you suppose we're going to guarantee a secure supply of electricity if we don't have coal or nuclear?

137

Derick fae Yell,

29/01/2007 18:44:07

#147
"What do you do today, when a high pressure over Scotland means little or no wind?"

Continue watching TV as usual, via renewably generated energy stored in megawatt flow batteries (see King Island), pumped hydro storage and hydrogen. All the while comfortably ensconced in our zero-heating scandinavian houses, saltires hanging limply but happily in the non-existent breeze.

Reliance on a few giant centralised power sources is inherently less secure than relying on numerous decentralised sources, and reducing demand in the first place. If we have to rejig the grid to fit decentralised generation, then we will.

Flow Batteries "the batteries can be used in a wide range of roles, from 1-kilowatt-hour units (like a large automotive battery, say), to power-station scales of hundreds of megawatt-hours."

Text of article from New Scientist on Flow Batteries.
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3473&...

Irish report on renewable energy storage.
http://www.sei.ie/uploadedfiles/FundedProgrammes/REHC0300...

zero heating house, Aberdeenshire - we could build all houses like this. Now. given the will.
http://www2.rgu.ac.uk/subj/search/Research/SustainableHou...


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.