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12 ministers 'to quit' over embryo bill

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Published Date: 23 March 2008
TWELVE Government ministers were last night poised to quit office over the embryo research bill row, leaving Gordon Brown "no option" but to back down and allow a free vote.
Senior Labour sources claim the Prime Minister faces a catastrophic rebellion over the Government-backed bill, which would allow the creation of part-human, part-animal embryos for research.

A U-turn by Brown would represent the biggest humiliation to his leadership since he came to power as Labour leader and PM in June last year.

The row exploded last week after Cardinal Keith O'Brien, leader of Scotland's Roman Catholics, described the move as a "monstrous Frankenstein" plan. Brown is being told by his own supporters that he must offer MPs a free vote to avoid a ministerial clear-out, which could include Catholic ministers such as Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly, Scottish Secretary Des Browne and Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy.

Brown's only public concession so far is to allow ministers to abstain, but it is believed this has failed to reassure some who want to be free to vote against the bill. One source said last night: "We could be looking at around 12 resignations. Either that, or they will say: 'I'm going to vote against and you can sack me.' Non-Catholic ministers are getting just as much pressure from their own churches and constituencies. It is really intense."

Northern Ireland minister Paul Goggins is a Catholic thought to have concerns about the bill. Government whips Frank Roy and Thomas McAvoy are also Catholics and are understood to have concerns. Business Minister Stephen Timms describes himself as a Christian Socialist. Other Catholic Ministers outside the Cabinet include David Cairns, Mike O'Brien, Pat McFadden and Jim Murphy.

Former cabinet minister Stephen Byers warned that Brown risked a backlash from voters if he insisted on wielding the whip over the issue. He said: "On matters like this I want to reach my own decision and not be instructed how to vote."

Several Scottish Labour MPs last night came forward to urge Brown to offer a free vote.

Mohammed Sarwar, the Labour MP for Glasgow Central, said he would abstain or vote against the bill because of his own beliefs as a Muslim and because he believed it represented the views of his constituents. "There should be a free vote, it's a matter of conscience," he said.

Ayrshire MP Brian Donohoe, who backs the plans, added: "I believe it is right that there is a free vote."

And Catholic Labour MP Jim Devine, who also backs the bill, said: "It's a similar issue to Trident. It should be a conscience vote. I don't want to see colleagues resign."

First Minister Alex Salmond – who backs a free vote – offered his qualified support for the bill last night. A spokesman for Salmond said: "This is a matter of conscience for SNP MSPs. He supports the bill subject to some safeguards."

Brown is reluctant to allow the whole bill to be a free vote because he considers it to be key Government legislation, extremely important to the UK's position at the cutting edge of stem-cell research.

A spokeswoman for the Prime Minister said it was still possible a free vote could be allowed, although they believed it was best for ministers who opposed the bill to abstain.

"The Prime Minister believes we should be guided by the best medical advice and by science," the spokeswoman added.

The Catholic Church in Scotland continued to pile pressure on Brown, saying it would name and shame MPs who supported the plans, and urged Catholics to campaign against them.

The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales entered the debate by calling on Brown to allow a free vote on the controversial bill. The Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, said: "I think Catholics in politics have got to act according to their Catholic convictions, so have other Christians, so have other politicians."

Campaigners in favour of the bill believe that even if a free vote is allowed they will comfortably win the day, predicting a majority of about 100.

Lib Dem MP Evan Harris said: "On a free vote, any Labour rebels would be exceeded in number by Liberal Democrats and Conservatives voting for the bill. The Labour Party is having an unnecessary fight with itself."

Several Labour MPs and peers led a counter-attack against the Catholic Church. Labour peer George Foulkes accused the cardinal of scaremongering. "We passed this bill on a whipped vote in the Lords without this kind of furore. It's about putting DNA into a cell, not tampering with human life or genetics in the way that Keith O'Brien suggests. The real humanity is with people that support research that saves people's lives," he said.

Labour MP Brian Iddon added: "The Roman Catholic church is being extremely emotive and creating muddle. I've had people writing to me saying, 'We don't want people who are half human, half cow walking down our street.'"

Labour MP Gordon Banks, whose brother has early-onset Alzheimer's, said the bill should be whipped because it significantly improve research into conditions such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

Banks, the MP for Ochil and South Perthshire, said it was reasonable to assume that the Prime Minister's view was influenced by his son's cystic fibrosis, a condition that could be helped by stem-cell research.

The Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and SNP are allowing a free vote on the bill.

LEADER: "PERVERSELY, ON THIS ISSUE CARDINAL O'BRIEN IS POLITICALLY RIGHT BUT MORALLY WRONG"

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 March 2008 12:25 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 00:10:21
Only twelve?

Writing is on the wall. Goodbye Broon, hello Alan Johnston next leader of the Labour party.
2

I-Mac,

23/03/2008 00:13:13
A "free vote". Is that one where the Catholic Church pulls the strings?
3

,

23/03/2008 00:19:36
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4

Resolutions,

23/03/2008 00:23:34
#2 Suspect that a fair number of non-Catholics are a bit incomfortable with this proposal too.

This is really a question of conscience and should be a 'free vote'
5

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 00:29:08
'We don't want people who are half human, half cow walking down our street.'"

That seems rather a harsh description of most Labour MP’s.

What harm have cows done to society?
6

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 00:36:32
"half human, half cow"

Has he never been to Dumfries on a Saturday night
7

Richardinho,

23/03/2008 00:44:39
It's not really a question of conscience. More a question of some people not understanding science.
8

,

23/03/2008 00:49:21
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9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 00:49:30
Well I must confess, that after trying for a 'Baby'..now 10years and about 6years for IVF, to which in Edinburgh has an about 39% success rate, which is very good, 'by-the-way',
That even My DYW and I, would never want treatment that used "part-human, part-animal embryos"

After all its a Baby we Want not a, 'cross breed'

And what would you do with the 'long tail'? :-))

Quite Right for the,

"12 ministers 'to quit' over embryo bill"

Some of us still have, 'Morals' why back down,?
10

Marky Bhoy,

Dinfermline 23/03/2008 00:50:49

No ( poster 2 ) you vote how you think not how you are told to think
11

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 23/03/2008 01:12:54
#9-Charles Linskaill, Edinburgh.

Charles, didn't I tell you how a pal of mine managed to get his wife 'preggies' as he followed his Doctor's advice and you replied, 'as it was still winter you'd wait for Springtime to try it.'..well guess what, it's time to try it!! "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"
I hope you decide to try again and I wish you and your wife well and I'm confident it 'Will Work'!
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
12

,

23/03/2008 01:13:55
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13

,

23/03/2008 01:19:54
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14

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/03/2008 01:24:10
Half-human half-cow? Is this a reference to the Wendy Edinburgh photo-shoot?
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 01:26:34
Haggis MacBagpipes @#11,
But it was snowing here today in Edinburgh!

I dont wan it to..'fall-off' :-))

But thankyou for your kind thoughts!
16

Calum Crubag,

23/03/2008 02:06:29
Where in the Bible is this forbidden? And do Catholics induldge in any other 'unnatural' scientific-inspired activities like driving cars, using electricity or taking paracetemol?

Or are prayers enough to heal illnesses?

Time to end faith schools now. We don't want these Christian Taleban anywhere near power and influencing our children.
17

JMKC,

U.S. 23/03/2008 03:00:20
The bio companies keep trying the same thing here in the U.S. They try passing bills in individual states, some of which have, unfortunately, been passed, and they dupe people into thinking this is a boon to mankind.

Embryonic stem cells are disasterously expensive, purely hit and miss, and if they were successful, you can bet there would have been plenty of money put into it by investors and venture capitalists!
Instead, they spend their time and money to dupe taxpayers into footing the bill so the scientists can play Frankenstein.

You really have to ask yourself where this will all end when a scientist has already applied for a patent for "creation".
Imagine, one person who has the corner market.
Will he be able to legally prevent natural conception???

By comparison, adult stem cell procedures are vastly successful now at over 60 procedures, and more every day. Thereby, making it unnecessary for embryonic stem cell research.

People are traveling to China every day to participate in auto stem cell procedures that are successful.
Here in the U.S. auto stem cells are used to regrow bone, regrow brain cells, heart cells, etc.

The possibilities are endless as procedures are being tested for approval by the Food and Drug Administration. Those who want to toy with embryos downplay the importance of auto and adult stem cell procedure success purposely, to keep you focused on getting them the embryos and fetuses and tissues from abortions that they crave.
18

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 23/03/2008 03:07:38
this is already going on in china usa russia japan and the uk ................ if you think I am wrong then wake up to reality
19

Larry Hallatt,

Chesley Canada 23/03/2008 03:15:34
Church groups and clergy that have special tax exemptions should lose their status once they become involved in politics.

Are these clergy registered as government lobbyist if not, lets fine them!!! The state must remove special municipal tax exemptions and fully assess church properties.

if any Minister chooses to resign, accept them and dit adieu!

Their are lots of back benchers that would relish moving to the front seats and enjoy the full bowl of cake pudding.
20

Larry Hallatt,

Chesley Canada 23/03/2008 03:27:09
For those that wish to get pregnant and firmly believe in Genesis and the story of Noah 's Ark..........are you using the standard Catholic and biblical approved system incest.

Remember in Genesis god cloned Eve from Adam's rib and had their children mate to populate the world.

After the great flood, according to the Hebrew bible incest once again was used to re populate the human race.

How can any Catholic now claim their god does not approve of various sexual activities and means of reproduction.

The story of Joseph and Mary is a story of god impregnating the Joseph's virgin wife Mary. Today, we would call that rape and bedding down the neighbours wife.

Did he forget what he wrote on the stones that were given to Moses's ........adultery is universally celebrated in the Christian church!

Or was he simply taking the king and barons long tradition of bedding the bride of the peasants.
21

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 23/03/2008 04:11:33
Larry. you show ignorance God did not impregnate Joseph's wife Mary, Joseph was not married to Mary at that time.

Also Catholics by their following the Anti-Christ are not Christians.

22

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 23/03/2008 06:19:22
Never have I read such ill-informed comment in my life, sorry I have to admit maybe I have, likes of Eddie and Co with their political comments.
This is research into the production of stem cells that and nothing else, the quest for knowledge has always been the driving force. Had the scientists listened to the Church of Rome, had they not put up with being excommunicated by these same Christian Ethics we would still be in the dark ages.
The ethical question here is do we extend our knowledge now in this country or do we wait until we have the permission of a new Pope, one who’s ethical background is not in question?
Historically Rome did not like Galileo and many others, they locked them up they burnt them at the stake, is this the level of mentality that peruses the minds of those “celibate monks”
23

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 23/03/2008 06:39:42
#15 - Charles Linskaill, Edinburgh.

It was snowing here today also, and our temperature at this moment is minus 11°C and the Windchill makes it feel like minus 20°C ... I agree, just a tad too cold for THAT expiriment, but it was just a wee reminder of how all yer dreams could come true, if Mrs. Linskaill and yourself try that when the weather is a wee bit warmer!
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
24

JG,

Fife 23/03/2008 07:43:04
I'm not sure about the idea of mutant embryos. It certainly doesn't sit well with me either but parliamentary voting shouldn't be decided upon by the cardinal. The MPs were voted in because of their political inclinations not because they are members of the Catholic party.
25

Stephen101,

Who will ever vote for a Cathlic MP again? 23/03/2008 07:43:44
Next election.

The voters will ask their candidates - are you a Roman Catholic? Will you represent me, or the wishes of your church? Which is more important to you? Tell me what you decide and then I will decide whether to vote for you or not.

The religious faith of every candidate is now an issue.

O'Brien has let an evil genie out of the bottle.

26

wayne bijlyeerheid,

23/03/2008 07:43:46
They're still voting fodder it's just that they are being ordered to vote in a certain way by an unelected undemocratic exclusive organisation, the catholic church.
When they stand for election they should tell us that their religious dogma will take first place over their duty to represent all constituents.
27

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:01:23
17. Good to hear a voice of concern from the USA.

Where ultra-fundamentalist Christians campaign to ban the teaching of evolution in schools, and introduce bills to that effect state by state.

Where ultra-fundamentalist Christians campaign to ban a woman's right to choose, and introduce bills to that effect state by state.

Where concern for human life stops abruptly at the borders of that country and concern for the dignity of human life doesn't travel as far as Guantanamo, Abu Grhaib and rendition/torture. Where you veto laws to allow continued use of water-boarding and torture, but pass laws to halt stem cell research aimed at curing disease.

Embryonic stem cell research is required for research into a range of human conditions, auto stem cells research is limited to a restricted number of cell lines from which stem cells can be cultured.

Talking of patenting, the USA was the only government which backed patenting (by its own agencies, the NIH) of the human genome and human gene sequences - which would have disastrously slowed and impeded research, for profit.

Thanks for your concern about UK research policy, but I think you have greater human life and dignity of life issues to be worrying about at home there in the USA.
28

eric,

23/03/2008 08:08:29
The church revolts me, its like a paedo shouting it from the roofs.Most folk in UK will be agianst it anyway.The church is trying to make up moral ground and trying to repair damage done to it by paedo preists.But im afraid Mud sticks.Extremism at its worst.
29

,

23/03/2008 08:10:45
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30

It's me!,

23/03/2008 08:19:02
I thought MP's were there to represent their constituents views, not their own. Silly me!
31

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:29:06
31. Vincent-W

do you support the Catholic churh's campaigns against condoms in areas with high HIV transmssion rates? The Catholic Church ran advertising in Brazil, such an area, warning that condom users would go to hell. Do you think that helps human health?

It helps human health as much as the Cathloic church's regressive attitude to research whose aim is alleviation of human suffering.
32

JG,

Fife 23/03/2008 08:34:59
#29 Rulesbutnotrulers
And you are entitled to that opinion - as is the cardinal. It's not having the opinion that is the problem here, it's someone who is unelected trying to to drive the actions of people who were elected, just because they all go to the same church.
33

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:46:33
35. Are they supporting the views of their constituent's who have, or have family or friends who suffer from, Alzheimers, Motor Neurone Disease, Parkinson's disease, spinal injury or many other conditions?
34

Richardinho,

23/03/2008 08:47:20
If this really was about creating 'Frankensteins' then I would be against it too. But it isn't. People really need to look at the science rationally rather than making uniformed emotional decisions.
35

Unimpressed one,

23/03/2008 08:49:25
I think we would be well rid of any politicians who resign over this. Religion has no place in government.
36

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 08:52:16
# 24 NotaRulerbutaholyroller,

"Good to know that some MPs are not just voting fodder."

Would that some of these MPs had shown a similar independence when it came to following Blair to war.
37

,

23/03/2008 08:53:08
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38

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:54:22
38. Well said, it is about creating cells, entirely with human DNA, for research - not hybrid animals or children, or cells with mixed human/ animal nuclear DNA.

39

,

23/03/2008 09:06:27
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40

FTH22inarow,

23/03/2008 09:08:58
religion should have no place in politics, full stop, how can you take anyone serious who believes the pap that the church preaches, If it was upto them we'd all still be stuck in the dark ages
41

The Strategist,

23/03/2008 09:14:49
Let these ministers resign. I don't want a Taliban Govt where decisions are made on religious grounds.
42

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:19:30
"A U-turn by Brown would represent the biggest humiliation to his leadership since he came to power as Labour leader and PM in June last year."

...it would also let the electorate see that however Gordon might be affected personally, he was big enough to admit that democracy is the way we do things and have a free vote on things that matter.... not just for fox-hunting and the docking of dogs' tails. Can't all of you bigots not stick to the issue and stop ranting and spewing your bile?
43

Forward not Back,

23/03/2008 09:20:02
This is a matter of conscience like abortion, euthanasia and capital punishment. Simple as that. Typical control freakery from Brown to try and do otherwise.
44

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:22:12
I hope there are many more. We'd think more of Gordon if he had the backbone to follow the dictates of democracy.
45

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:24:22
Don't talk mince. You know that you like to see your posts here don't you? Well, in allowing your posting to be shown, that's what's called fairness...democracy. Get it?
46

JJI,

Livingston 23/03/2008 09:29:09
Having read a lot of the comments above and what Gordon Brown and Co are planning is it little wonder the our society is in the state it is in. Wouldn't Adolf Hitler loved to have lived sixty years later, after all this is the rubbish that he was spouting forth and we fought a world war and one it now Gordon and Co are prepared to give it by forcing his own MP's to vote on it. This is a free vote issue and I would suggest that any MP no matter what your party allegiances are should be prepared to lose their seats at the next election for the voting for such a bill.

So wake up, scrap the bill, listen to society and to what is morally correct.
47

FTH22inarow,

23/03/2008 09:29:25
its not democracy when the catholic church tells you how to vote though is it?
48

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:32:03
#16 Calum Crubag. Maybe you're wired up wrongly too.
49

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:33:30
#27. You have the perfect nome de plume.
50

Aulikki,

Loch Ness 23/03/2008 09:36:02
I totally agree with 43, 44 and 45. And cannot see Gordon having enough backbone to let these 12 resign (cannot even believe that they would ever resign; only they know which strings to pul Gordon!) And isn't it amazing how popes and all church-men and other 'moralists', so against all experimental science are always the first to spend any amounts of money for medicine to themselves alive?!!! How long did they keep the previous pope alive with modern medicines?! They only preach their superstitious nonsense to others!!!
51

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:36:28
# 30 Can't you see that, regardless of the topic, a free vote should never be stifled. If the majority think as you think then it'll be a 'no contest'.....just wait and see how alone you and other empty heads are.
52

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:42:33
#33.....see how effective condoms are in making Scotland one, if not the, highest area in Europe with unwanted pregnancies, let alone unnecessary ones. .... all thanks to the liberal ineptness of our legislators....looking for cures rather than prevention by teaching morality. The intention with a condom is to snuff out potential life from the outset, which is wrong, and will not stop the spread of Aids.....if you only understood how this happens.
53

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 09:44:54
56. Condoms do not help prevent the spread of HIV? "if you only understood how this happens" - go on, tell me how this happens.
54

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:45:13
# 36. I wouldn't mind reading your postings if you had a knowledgable insight into the subject. Get the facts right.
55

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 09:45:59
56. "snuff out potential life"? I see, condoms are killing, "potential life"? Masturbatiion too I would think.
56

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:46:03
#37. Why?....are you going to be the one to cast the first stone?
57

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:46:43
#39.. Go back to sleep.
58

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:49:06
#26,43,44, Is there ever an occasion where you feel there should be a free vote in parliament? What about one to get rid of bigotry?
59

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 09:49:35
58. What facts did I have wrong? Your pithy little posts are adding nothing to the discussion - "go back to sleep", "get the facts right"?
60

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:53:04
#59.. Correct. Got it in one you clever fellow.
61

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:55:53
#57 Are you seriously telling me that you don't know the ways that Aids can be spread???? .... something that is being taught in primary schools??/?? and you're making posts here????? Yes, go back to sleep. Here are your pyjamas
62

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:57:06
#62 Get your facts in order. read up a bit and then come back. Here are your pyjamas
63

FrankyB,

The Vatican 23/03/2008 10:00:01
Can we have a free vote to vote these religious monsters out please?

Can woman avoid being impregnated by spirits while they sleep (is this rape?) and having to give birth to so-called hybrid humans just so that we can then crucify hem later on a cross? Sounds like science fiction doesn't it!!

64

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:07:02
66. You said that condoms do not help prevent the spread of HIV. COuld you please explain how it spreads and why condoms do not help stop transmission? (PS - AIDS is a clinical desecription of a grouping of symptoms associated with HIV infection, so does not "spread" - HIV "spreads")

65

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 10:08:30
#68 is now afraid at what photos Spook may choose to share next....

Have you considered joining W.A. (Wankersanonymous)?
66

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 23/03/2008 10:09:15
All you have to do to bring out all the nutters is have an article about stem cells.
67

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:09:40
72. Hehehe. Persoanlly I think he needs a hand.
68

Big Hairy Catholic O'Darra,

Ibrox 23/03/2008 10:14:18
I shall be boycotting my catholic place or worship until they see sense on this issue. I strongly urge my fellow catholics to do the same. Turn your backs on the silly Fathers.
69

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:25:31
76, erm, can't speak with my mouth full :-)
70

King Billy.,

embryo juggling 23/03/2008 10:34:18
Bloody catholic and unionist drones.
71

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

23/03/2008 10:35:40
56...The Catholic Church is responsible for the spread of HIV in Africa...and now they are trying to ban the advertising of condoms in the Phillipines and raise marriage from 18 to 24....I mean, WHO do these people think they are, playing god with other people's lives?...they need to get a life, thats the problem.
72

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:37:30
80. Indeed, the catholic church ran adverts in South America telling people they would go to hell for using condoms, to counter health education campaigns aimed at preventing the spread of HIV.

That is their contribution to public health.
73

The Ninja,

Bonnie Scotland 23/03/2008 10:51:19
Hmm, another intelligent discussion here I see, would it not be better discussing the pros & cons of embryo/stem cell research ?
The Scotsman has gone to a lot of trouble to let us know who the catholics are, why ? is that what it sees as more important ?
Of course they are jumping up & down just now, it's what they believe in, the same as the anti-war protestors jump up & down for something they believe in, the same as Greenpeace, well, you get the idea.
74

Toast,

23/03/2008 10:52:28
In a democracy ALL VOTES should be free votes
75

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:52:42
#70 Been already. Hope you sleep well. God bless.
76

JG,

Fife 23/03/2008 10:53:19
#35 Rulesbutnotrulers
You're kind of missing the point. It's fine for a person to think things (anything) through, weigh up the evidence and make an informed decision. If that was the premise on which these MPs were making THEIR decisions it would be acceptable. MY difficulty with this is that an organisation who was NOT elected to govern are trying to drive the parliament. It is not their right to do that.
77

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:54:49
#71 Up all night on that one? You needn't have bothered. Most everyone else seems to know. Don't feel bad about it. Ask a friend who'll tell you the truth and not lead you on.
78

King Billy.,

Govan orange lodge 23/03/2008 10:55:17
This is to serious a topic for a stupid church and its dwindling band of outrages bigots to get involved with.
However they may seem to be smarting by the recent number of polish cleaners and bin men swelling their normally empty halls.
79

mr angry,

ayrshire 23/03/2008 10:57:45
The key point in this , is that these clowns were elected to represent the views of all their constituents , not their religion or their own blinkered position. If their religion prevents them doing their job they should resign and let someone else do it properly.
80

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:58:42
#75 Why do you describe yourself as Catholic when you are obviously not one..or at least, not a practising one?
81

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:58:47
86. Phil, given you say condoms don't help prevent the transmission of HIV, but claim to know how HIV really spreads, I think you would be doing us a public health favour if your shared your knowledge. Do tell how HIV spreads and why condoms are not relevant.
82

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:59:30
#79 I suppose you meant to say something there. PC not working properly?
83

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:00:32
#80 Where have you been all your life? Read up on current affairs and come back. Here are your pyjamas too/
84

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:01:34
#82. Yes, spot on and have a free vote. Right?
85

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 11:02:21
92. There are no pyjamas attached to your message, you do know that don't you? Can you catch HIV via cyber-sharing of pyjamas by the way, just before you send me anymore.
86

,

23/03/2008 11:07:21
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87

,

23/03/2008 11:13:03
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88

pascali,

east coast 23/03/2008 11:15:37
I am not at all sure how the Catholic MP can be confident that he/she is conscienciously representing the majority of his constituents. For example in my constituency where from a previous vote on a matter championed by the Catholic church leads me to believe my MP(Catholic) will vote against even though Protestant schools outnumber Catholic schools in the constituency by a factor of four - crude yardstick of measurement I admit.

Is this religious interfernce not what we are afraid of in Islam ?
89

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

23/03/2008 11:18:28
If the anti-catholics above could stop for a moment and actually consider the point at issue which is whether MPs should have a free vote.

That is really all that the Catholic church is asking for.

The issue really is one of effective democracy...the proposal is clearly a matter of conscience and it is a long tradition in Parliament that MPs shouldn't be subject to the whip in such circumstances.

The Catholic Church speaks against the use of condoms, but argues for chastity within marriage...if the Church's advice was followed, AIDS wouldn't be a significant problem.
Condoms frequently burst - almost guaranteed during anal sex and not at all uncommon during vaginal sex - and do NOT offer total protection. Condoms do no more than reduce the rate of infection.

Scientifically, the best approach to tackling AIDS is to follow the advice of the Catholic Church and keep sex within wedlock. That is in line with all the other teachings of the church. Those who lack the self-dicipline to follow that rule put themselves and others at risk.
90

beckypumps1,

Fife 23/03/2008 11:25:45
16
I am with you on this one, and for the record I am not religious .and am weary of people that are but each to their own.

If we are to heal our society all the kids should be in multi faith schools.
91

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 11:26:25
I'm a smidge concerned about Phil and his obsession with other mens jamjams
92

King Billy.,

23/03/2008 11:29:03
98
I think your drivel is better suited to the Celtic and Rangers threads. Don't come on this thread bleeding on about anti catholics and playing the moral high ground. I have read your bigoted comments and you are an utter shambles.
93

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

23/03/2008 11:30:00
101

Better get a wipe and clean the spittle of your screen.
94

Tarchin,

Lothian 23/03/2008 11:31:00
People in the western world are living longer. The incidence of dementias such as Alzheimer's, Lewy Body Disease (LBD) and Parkinson's disease is increasing and new research into possible cures is needed. As someone who has a younger sister badly affected by LBD i am in favour of the hybrid embryo bill. I feel that the government has failed to explain to the public just what such research involves and the limitations that will be imposed on researchers. Such an explanation would go a long way to allaying the fears of the Frankenstein half man half cow lobby led by Cardinal O'Brien who should know better.
95

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

23/03/2008 11:33:06
103

Don't you agree that it should be a free vote ?
96

Expat in Amsterdam,

Amsterdam 23/03/2008 11:35:28
NOBODY, neither from church nor government should be able to tell anybody how to vote. MP's are elected individually and locally, and should therefore be able to vote freely and individually,reflecting the wishes of their electorate.
The idea of voting for the party view, voting to the whip is non-democratic and should not be enforced, in fact it should be forbidden.
As to stem-cell research, although I can understand some peoples' fears, I have mixed feelings about it. I know some people who quite fancy the idea of sporting a pair of horns on their heads (mind you, Amsterdam IS a bit strange).
But parliamentary voting MUST be free!
97

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:36:34
#87 Excuse me your majesty... even your Grand master doesn't agree with you. pyjamas...off you go.
98

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:39:20
#88 Calm down Mr Angry...calm down... All that's being asked is that they do vote according to the wishes of tthose who elected them like in democracy. Let them have freedom to do just that and not tether them. The vote will tell all. Have a wee bevvy and then do the pyjama thing.
99

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:40:27
#90 read the posts before you pick on something already explained.... in fact.... boxer shorts for you too.
100

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:42:19
# 94. Still awake? duh...
101

Martha,

23/03/2008 11:44:44
This is definitely a difficult issue. We've already seen cases of parents who deliberately bring a second child into the world to provide body parts for a sick first child. Is this ethical? Does the second child have a choice in the matter?

As far as combining human DNA with animal eggs, give a thought to the poor innocent cow. As Mark Twain observed: "Man is the only animal who blushes. Or needs to."
102

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:45:05
#95 I was going state that your comment was infantile, but you've just shown everyone that all by your little self...........PJs for you as well.
103

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:47:12
#97 Why not email your MP and ask? Give your opinions at the same time.
104

uranus,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 11:51:58
Let us be clear. The Cardinals whom no one elected are talking about a'free vote', which euphemistically
is replacing government's 3-line whip to vote for the bill,by Catholic clergy's 3-line whip to vote against the bill. The words 'free' or 'choice' are not found in the lexicons of Pope and Cardinals. If they had their way, gays would be sub-humans, women would have no say about their bodies, and earth would be still flat like a plate! For me, this is Talibanism and our soldiers are dying fight against this scourge. Come with me, to see children suffereing from cystic fibrosis and diabetes and to see our elders who fought for this country with dreadful Alzeimer, and tell me what would you do. Don't ask the Cardinals, they say pray which means doing nothing. After all, they did nothing when young boys were abused by their clergy.

By the way,Linskaill: Mrs should use a thermometer to look for ovulation time indicated by raise of temperature and try a day or two later. Good luck!
105

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 23/03/2008 11:58:24
Make religion illegal, the world would be a better place.
106

Tris,

Dundee 23/03/2008 12:04:51

I doubt if you can take religion out of politics. Religion is part of a what makes a person who he is and Bishops' preaching or not, people are guided by their religious convictions. (No pun intended.)

I think though that if any church is going to make public statements and then it appears that MPs have been swayed by the pronouncements of Bishops of, we may need to know in future before we vote, what religion an MP supports, if any.

It's not unreasonable to ask a candidate if they will be swayed by a Bishop's/Minister's/Imam's preaching before we give him our support.

Quite apart from this, I'm enjoying seeing the wheels come off Brown's awful government, and the prospect of the odious Des killer Browne, and McNumpty Cairns resigning fills me with complete joy.

It was with deep regeret this morning that I heard the news than Brown has caved and these two pathetic excuses for men will cling on to their fat salaries and ministerial cars.
107

pehman,

sussex 23/03/2008 12:05:27
I maybe wrong here but isn't insulin extracted from cattle ?

Anyone want to go back to pre-insulin days ?
108

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

23/03/2008 12:23:12
Make religion illegal...isn't that what Stalin tried to do ?
109

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 12:26:39
#100 Don't want to be too rude and tell them where they ought to go
110

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 12:30:59
#101 Now, now your majesty. remember you lie to go back hundreds of years. You're living in the past too. Free votes for all.
111

fritigern,

Inverness 23/03/2008 12:34:13
Irrespective of the particular subject under discussion, the fundamantal question is whether MPs ( or MSPs) should vote according to their conscience. I personally have no respect for any MP who votes for what he believes is morally wrong just because his party tells him to do so. That's the path which leads to camps and gulags.
112

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 12:41:40
#103 Reaad post 17 which only gives you some of the benefits....not one of which has come from embryonic experiments.








113

phil anscombe,

Dundee 23/03/2008 12:41:53
Irrespective of views on the merits or otherwise of this research, does anyone dissent from the view that MPs, of any religious persuasion and none, should be free to vote according to their consciences?

Gordon Brown, in his Stalin control-freak mode insists on a three-line whip, alone of the party leaders. This is all of a piece with New Labour's assault on civil liberties. Even if you oppose the Cardinal's views on all else, uphold him on this one for he -and no elected Labour lobby fodder-is the champion of liberty of conscience.
114

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 12:47:10
#105 You've been in Amsterdam a bit too long. MPs should take into account the wishes of their constituents and if those wishes or views conflict with that of the MP then he/she should vote accordingly. What this is all about is the freedom to vote at all !!! What a retrograde step that an MP cannot vote if he disagrees with the party line.
115

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 12:48:08
119. Pehman

insulin used to be extracted from cattle. Today, more effective and totally human insulin is used, and is obtained from transgenics - human DNA for insulin is expressed in bacteria. Same for clotting factors for haemophiliacs, and various other therapeutic proteins. Of course this means creating a "Hybrid" bacteria.

116

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 12:49:29
108. Phil

I am still anxious to hear from you why condoms do not help prevent HIV transmission, and how, according to you, HIV is spread. Please tell us pyjama man.

117

uranus,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 12:54:01
#17 is not Bush and his neo cons mafia against the kind of research the bill proposes? That should settle the issue and MPs should vote for it!
118

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 12:54:20
#113 If you'll pardon me saying so...the Cardinal is elected. Not by people outside the Catholic faith I have to say. As has been said repeatedly, the Catholic Church is saddened by the plight of those who are not born normally - in whichever aspect - and deplores any marginalisation of them. It's just the in-you-face perv*rts who goad homosexuals into actions which are very often against their conscience that araean't found to be acceptable. However, stick to the thread please.

..incidentally you sport a very apt nom de plume
119

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 12:56:26
#114. Well I'll tell you differently. Here's your 'stupid' sign. Stick to the thread. agree that a free vote should always be allowed
120

PDS Charity worker,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 12:58:22
Take time to look at someone with parkinsons disease over a space of time as I have on numerous occasions
and I think you will realise the importance of such research
121

Tris,

23/03/2008 13:04:58


Please Brown.... insist on the 3 line whip... and that way McIdiot Cairns will go, along with Doctor Death Browne, not to mention that awful Kelly female.
122

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:08:22
130 Phil

"It's just the in-you-face perv*rts who goad homosexuals into actions which are very often against their conscience that araean't found to be acceptable"

can you explain, how these people goad homosexuals into actions, and what type of actions you refer to?
123

Pilrig.,

Livingston 23/03/2008 13:09:24
132 - speaking as a person who's father and aunt died of Alzheimers, I still have my doots about this particular research. Thin end of the wedge. I sympathise with GB that his kid has cystic fibrosis, but that shouldn't mean his MPs are denied a vote of conscience.
124

,

23/03/2008 13:09:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
125

Pilrig.,

Livingston 23/03/2008 13:10:41
116 - mair control freakery
126

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 13:14:29
134
I too, am intrigued how you goad homosexuals.Do you prod them with something?We must be told.
127

bluehead,

edinburgh 23/03/2008 13:15:27
in a country like this where democracy was abolished
a long time ago,the words 'free vote' must sound inspiring,
when you consider the fact that politicians are somtimes forced to vote for something they are dead against.then it is no wonder ordinary people think the
world of politics is very evil and make no sense
128

Pilrig.,

Livingston 23/03/2008 13:15:37
136 - The Catholic Church is more aligned to Darwin than it is to Creationism.
129

Thistledhu,

Fife 23/03/2008 13:16:30
A church any church should stay out of politics speaking as well and truley lapsed catholic i am appaled by the abuse of position that the cardianal has carried out.

He is playing into the hands of the right wing bigots of the Orange lodge etc.

Very much a home goal I think
130

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:18:17
140? Eh? How so?
131

uranus,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 13:22:38
I wonder if Catholic MPs do not toe the cardinals' line what would happen to them? Would the Cardinals appear on the TV with a list and ex-communicate these 'infidels' or pronounce a Fatwa on their heads?
132

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:22:49
Forget the PM and his toadies and his opposition. Forget science, as some posters previous have postulated. It is a smoke and mirrors attempt to get a piece of law ratified, and open the gates of hell just that bit further. Why is it, in the name of science, that segments of global society are bent on being able to possibly re-create life? Oh I know, the nay-sayers will pout and shout "its to understand enough of how we truly work to better our lives". Poppycock - its all about control - always has been, always will be. Go ahead and be duped, all who are in favour of the "Frankenstein Law" - and see the dark reward you will reap...
133

Conan the Librarian™,

Seeking a Dark Reward from the Gates of Hell 23/03/2008 13:28:00
144
Cures for Alzheimers and cystic fibroses?

Reap on.
134

Roy Forrester,

Bloomsburg USA 23/03/2008 13:34:29
# 28 Ayreshire Scot
Excellent comment. Which emphasizes the need to have a free vote, instead of following the political leaders like a heard of sheep. We went to war in Iraq because our elected politicians voted for it “on our behalf”. They followed the dictates and lies of the political leaders at that time, then we proceeded to vote them all back in again at the following election. As for this particular subject, everyone should have a say, including Catholics, Protestants, Agnostics etc., since we all have to live by whatever decision is finally taken.
135

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:39:05
#146
If you want to accept the "crumbs from the table" that science tosses you from this type of research, and because of such swallow the popular rhetoric for this godless type of research, be my guest. Also, do research things a bit deeper, there is no true "cure" for anything, at best they MIGHT JUST chase these diseases into a tenuous remission, but we so far, in all of science's glory, have not truly cured one thing. We merely blast one malady with enough of a chemical coctail, be it part natural and part synthetic, but that is the best we can do here on the real planet earth...
136

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 13:39:07
If they do quit, good for them.

This Bill is an utter abomination. Nothing can justify the creation of monsters.
137

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:40:03
147. I agree there should be free vote, and I agree that everyone is entitled to voice their opinion and lobby their MP, including the Cardinal.

The debate here has become about the research itself, and whether in opposing the research (the Cardinal backing a free vote is just on plank of the Catholic churches oppsotion to the research) the Catholic church is trying to impose religious beliefs to curtail scientifc research aimed at alleviating suffering.
138

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:41:16
149. NO "monsters" are being created. Some cells, with human proteins, will be cultured in dishes in a lab. In exactly the way human cells are cultured in labs today.
139

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 13:43:46
#151, scientists want to create half human, half animal hybrids, like the Minotaur - the stuff of humanity's worst nightmares.

This must be stopped at all costs. Nothing justifies such interference with nature.
140

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:44:46
148. Indeed, vitamin deficiencies are not cured by vitamins. Snake bites are not cured by anti-venoms. Diabetes and haemophilia are not managed, to the point of normal life expectancy, by insulin and clotting factors. Bacterial infections are not cured by antibiotics?
141

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:45:56
#150
If you would but kindly show me one single church that truly follows the Book of Acts and I will shake your hand. It seems world-wide that the leadership of enough churches (matters not what name hangs on their door) went political a long time ago, no matter how much they take a stance of non-intervention. The church can best help protect society by first being a concerned citizen and excersising their rights in their respective countries, and pray as well. Having said that, many countries of the world have not gotten away from the ways of antiquity when the church ruled absolutely: they have merely changed from their priestly robes into Fleet Street suits and rule from a less pious building...
142

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 13:46:10
#151, from Times Online, 18 January 2008:

"Experiments to create Britain’s first embryos that combine human and animal material will begin within months after a government watchdog gave its approval yesterday to two research teams to carry out the controversial work. Scientists at King’s College London, and the University of Newcastle will inject human DNA into empty eggs from cows to create embryos known as cytoplasmic hybrids, which are 99.9 per cent human in genetic terms."

Hybrids between humans and cattle. Just like the Minotaur.
143

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:46:25
152. No, they want to create cell cultures, where the cells are animal in origin and have human DNA inserted. The cells will be stimulated to become like specific types of human stem cell, and cultured ina layer on a dish so they can be studied. No "monsters".

144

uranus,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 13:47:45
Pope Pius XII had cell rejuvenation therapy.

This is what it says abut this therapy:

“Cell Therapy starts with the selection of specific organ cells from a fetal animal bred specifically for this purpose.”

Talking about humans and animals. Here a Pope and animal!!!
145

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 13:48:59
#157, read what the scientists at Kings College, London, and the University of Newcastle want to do as described in my last post.

They want to create human/cattle hybrids. I'd call those "monsters". Wouldn't you?
146

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 13:49:28
152
Interference with nature?
The first time our distant ancestor chopped down a tree with a flint axe was "interference with nature".
147

zigzag,

Canada 23/03/2008 13:50:26

What now (Gordon) Brown Cow.

148

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:51:00
#157
Wriggle little fish, but you have swallowed the whole rhetoric, hook, line, and sinker. You have been reeled in long ago... lie still on the plate like a good dead fish.
149

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 13:51:24
#160, so it's OK to create monsters of the kind that have haunted humanity's greatest fears throughout history?

It seems to me infinitely more sinister even than the development of nuclear weapons.
150

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:52:06
#160
Perhaps the other poster meant "interference with the LAWS of nature"...
151

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:52:20
159. You are not understanding what is proposed. A cell, from a cow, will its nucleus removed and a human cell nuclues implanted. The cell will be cultured in a dish, and stimulated to differentiate into a human stem cell - cultured in a dish.

A layer of cells in a liquid media in a dish. Not a minotaur.

152

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 13:53:05
163. Have you been haunted by a pinkish layer of cells in a dish?
153

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 13:53:47
#165, it is the deliberate creation of an embryo which could grow into a Minotaur. I can't understand why you don't find it as terrifying and repugnant an idea as I do.
154

Matt there,

somewhere 23/03/2008 13:54:13
Could not ALL the government ministers not resign on the grounds that they are useless?
155

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:55:10
#168
Amen.
156

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:57:35
#168
Correct me but I think you meant "resign" and "not resign"...
157

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 13:58:36
Blimey, I mean instead of... I need another cuppa...
158

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 13:59:44
166
Terrifying.
http://www.craphound.com/images/pettrrisxmaspaper.jpg
159

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 14:01:11
Grow up #172, please?
160

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 14:05:55
#114 just calm down and stick to the tread. Try not to let bigotry take over. Vote for free votes. Isn't this a democracy?
161

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 14:06:45
#115 Anyone can see through you. Here's your sign too.
162

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 14:07:37
#116 Would you allow a free vote on that? Here's your sign as well.
163

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 14:09:02
#119 What's your point? Think before you write. Here's your sign.
164

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 14:16:47
173
Nah. Too old and set in my ways.
An evangelical atheist I was made by a Catholic upbringing, and that is the way I shall stay.
Any church which wishes to stop research is wrong.

Does any of the millions of spermatozoa currently residing in your scrotum(assuming you have one), have a soul?
As a religious person, I'm so interested in your answer.
165

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 23/03/2008 14:17:14
#125

"does anyone dissent from the view that MPs, of any religious persuasion and none, should be free to vote according to their consciences?"

Aren't they are free to do this already? It's a question of whether they are willing to face the consequences of exercising their free choice. Loss of government position, withdrawal of party support, etc.
166

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 23/03/2008 14:21:54
#178
Since you are obviously THE source on things of science and religion it is assumed that no argument will buffet your icy fortress and penetrate your cold scientific heart...
167

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 14:22:51
#128. If you really need to know - as opposed to refusing to stick to the thread on free votes and nag on about the use of condoms which are not safe..... as evidenced by the continued rise in pregnancies in our own backyard, Just been told that the full and proper description of what you want to know contains words that aren't allowed. See what I mean by not getting a free vote. Look it up old son.
168

subrosa,

23/03/2008 14:29:06
Someone in Airdrie's got a new computer.

This is a difficult one for me. Nothing to do with the religious aspect, that doesn't concern me, but to do with the scientific evidence. Overall it appears the scientists have no other route to try and we must progress with help for these dreadful diseases.
169

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 14:31:54
180
I have a heart?
Souls and spermatozoa, any word from on high yet?
170

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 14:32:56
#143. you just don't know. Do you. Keep your sign held high. It says 'stoooopid'
171

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 14:39:32
#151. At what point in time would you say that what you consider to be just protein in a dish become something that becomes something like you? Maybe an analogy at your level might help. If you had an idea to make a lot of money and you had the opportunity to go ahead...you knew it was a cert...couldn't fail.... how far along that road to making your fortune would you be happy to let someone stop you for no good reason?
172

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 14:46:02
185
Do you honestly think this research would not,HAS not being going on already?
Would the "morality" of it stop the Chinese?
Or the US military?
173

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 14:57:21
188
Wee bit bitter Spook? Come on, Whitehall Welfare?
174

Resolutions,

23/03/2008 15:07:17
Look you lot - it was pointed out earlier, that a lot of NON-CATHOLICS are also uncomfortable about the way this science is heading. You seem to have turned it into something against that Faith.

With a scientific background there is great unease in this household over this development. And we are not alone.

There is no religious 'dogma' involved here - none at all - but we do not like the direction of this research one little bit.
175

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 15:07:35
#182, #187, are there in your view no limits to where we should go in the quest for cures for diseases? Even the creation of human/animal hybrids?

We may have the power to create monstrosities. Is it prudent to use this power, given what horrors may in time emerge from it?
176

Tris,

23/03/2008 15:21:40

#182 Subrosa.

I'm happy to agree with you :-).

If we had never been prepared to take risks with medical science, we wouldn't have made any of the advances (transplants innoculation, vaccination, etc).

We cannot let religion, however strongly people feel about it (and I respect that), stand in the way of progress towards the elimination of these awful conditions that blight so many lives.

I agree with the person who said that MPs do have the right to vote with their conscience. Like all of us doing our jobs, we may come across a situation where our boss tells us to do something that we have a moral problem with. We make a choice; we follow our hearts and risk the consequences of black marks on our records, no pay rises, stagnation or demotion, and possible dimissal. Alternatively we do what the boss says, and have sleepless nights.

Unencumbered as I am by a priest sitting on my shoulder I can't say what I'd do in circumstances where I was recieving instructions from "the church", but I know that MPs, in this respect, are no different from the rest of us. (Well, except that they get paid more.)

We have to be careful if priests are going to be advising MPs what they should vote for or against. It makes MPs' religions a part of their personal manifesto, and as such, it would not be unreasonable for candidates to be asked what their religion was, and how much it shaped their decisions.


On a lighter note I was interested in the person who suggested we were going down the path of creating "monsters of the kind that have haunted humanity's greatest fears throughout history"

Creating.... huh? Doesn't Mrs Thatcher STILL exist somewhere then?
177

henrymanchester,

UK 23/03/2008 15:35:36
Maybe he should try fixing the postal vote just like in a general election!
178

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 15:58:05
#193, I rather like 'iguana'. Wish I'd thought of it first!

I suppose it depends on whether we trust the scientists and the government to adhere to the very strict guidelines. I don't, I'm afraid. The temptation to venture further and further down the path of that kind of research is bound to be very great. I'd feel safer if we didn't go there at all.
179

uranus,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 16:12:41
"Look you lot - it was pointed out earlier, that a lot of NON-CATHOLICS are also uncomfortable about the way this science is heading"

Yes , you are right. Non-catholics like Talibans have strong objections, and may support fellow faithmen, the Cardinals! Wonder , what a non-catholic like Osama Bin-Laden thinks about this embryo business!
180

Resolutions,

23/03/2008 16:32:10
#199 That remark is totally uncalled for and you know it.

Displays remarkable ignorance.
181

Alliz,

23/03/2008 16:38:52
If religious leaders are attempting to use their influence over their members to further their aims in a political sense the voters should have the right to be made aware, to what extent their candidate would be influenced by such a tactic.
This matter has less to do with the embryo bill and more to do with a church wielding political influence on the democracy of our government.
182

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 16:54:35
185. You miss the point. A cell culture in a dish can never become anything more. Coordinated growth and sequential differentiation of the cells is not possible for such a culture. A t best the cells can be induced to differentiate to a specific cell type for study.

Just as human cancer cells can be and are cultured in a dish - do you want them protected as well in case they grow into something?
183

,

23/03/2008 17:05:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
184

uranus,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 17:07:16
#200

Both Talibans and Bin Laden are non-catholics and they
sure have similar views of Cardinals. there is one thing common in all religions, that is those who use their religion ( Catholic, COE, COS, Hindu, Islam, Sikh...) to further their ends are in controlling people. People who argue that faith has nothing to do with the views they hold in matters like IVF, contraceptive and embryo, when subjected to scrutiny invariably end up siding with religion. Science demands rational thinking and arguments. Religion rejects new concepts outright as it is wobbly on its own foundation.

I would rather give the scientists a chance to show whether there would be a progress to find a cure for dreadful inherited diseases.

Those who reject rational thinking and exploration are the ones soaked in ignorance.

185

Pilrig.,

Livingston 23/03/2008 17:21:35
142 - they don't accept the Genesis version of creation should be taken literally
186

hertscot,

darwin & dawkins house 23/03/2008 17:49:39
Morality, the last thing I need is shamen and politicians viting on issues which they consider to be a moral question,I wouldn't trust any of them to tell me black was black unless it benefited their peculiar beliefs.
Luddites and reactionaries united with the peddlars of lies and myths.
We are not gods creatures, we are a natural extension of the earths mammal family. If we can use science to save and improve life, then we should.
I take it all those who object will refuse treatment for themselves and their families for Alzheimers, MS, diabetes, leukemia, various cancers or any number of other inherited genetic diseases.
Yeah right!!!!
187

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 18:15:04
Do any of the rest of the mammalian family canabalise their young ?

The arrogance of science is astonishing.

You will not get away with this.
188

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:16:54
208 Eh? Creating a cell, with human DNA, from a cow cell is not "cannibalising our young" - do you think it would be possible to have a debate not couched in hysterical, nonsensical terms like "Minotaurs" and cannibalism? This is about creating cells, not animals, with specific properties to help in treatment of disease.

189

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 18:20:27
208
And the arrogance of religion is not astonishing?

"I am right, my god told me it was true"

Ma erse.
190

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 18:22:09
#209 Ayrshire Scot, behave you're doing a Thomas Dolby on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IlHgbOWj4o
191

hertscot,

Darwin & Dawkins House 23/03/2008 18:23:50
208
Your ignorance of nature is astonishing.

How do you get away with it?
192

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 18:25:18
Creating cells from what/where ? Why is it known as embrayonic research if it has nothing to do with embrayos ? An embrayo is a young child.
193

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:27:34
#209, > Creating a cell, with human DNA, from a cow cell is not "cannibalising our young" <

Whether or not it's cannibalising our young, it's indisputably creating a hybrid embryo - a hybrid of a human and a cow.

That terrifies me.
194

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:30:10
213. Stem cells are taken from embryos - embryos which have been aborted or which were created for in vitro fertisilisation and not used.

This new technique offers the chance to create stem cells from an animal cell in which human DNA is implanted.

Neither technique creates a human embryo for the purpose of stem cell research, the first utilises embryos already made and which would be destroyed for reasons not related to research anyway, the second avoids use of human embryo's at all.
195

hertscot,

23/03/2008 18:30:55
213
No, an embryo is a collection of non descript cells, they have potential for growth, which is far from guaranteed in any circumstaces.
Perhaps biology would have been a better subject than RI, the you would not be posting complete b*ll*cks.
196

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 18:31:16
Is it harvesting our young then ? Is that a better phrase ?
197

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:31:31
214. No, it not creating an embryo - it is creating a cell with human DNA, which can be cultured in a dish for the purposes of studying disease states or growing stem cells of a particular type for therapeutics.
198

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:33:02
217. No, it has nothing to with "Our young". Stem cell research currently uses cells taken from foetuses aborted, or created during IVF - the abortion or IVF has nothing to do with the research. The choice is to destroy the foetus without any further use of the cells in it, or use some of the cells for research into disease.

This new technique uses animal cells.
199

hertscot,

23/03/2008 18:33:39
214
Possible cures for disease terify you, I can think of many people who have prayed for this opportunity, who now want to prevent it!
Funny Old World.
200

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 18:35:19
"harvesting our young"


Oooh and indeed aaar, many's the time oi've gone up to my torp field with me trusty scythe and lopped the tops of the young uns for marrrket.
201

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:35:21
211. LOL. Not much chance, given some people on here haven't the faintest idea of the subjects under discussion, nor do they care to familiarise themselves with it at all before posting nonsense about cannibalism and minotaurs.
202

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:35:45
#220, no - creating monsters, part cow, part human, terrifies me. No cure for any disease is worth that.
203

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:36:46
214. Hate to tell you, but every time you had a cold or a flu or any other other viral illness, millions of genetic hybrid cells were created in your body - as virus DNA was merged with your own DNA.
204

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:37:42
#224, but not embryos, part human and part cow. (Which, you'll recall, is exactly what the Minotaur was.)
205

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 18:37:47
Does this technique mean that you will no longer have to take cells from feotuses ? Where does the DNA come from ? Hertscot you are very stupid do you think that it is only people brainwashed into religion who are concerned about ''embrayos'' ? I take it you have never had an embrayo inside you which grows into a child perhaps you would not be so cavalier if that was the case.
206

hertscot,

23/03/2008 18:37:52
217 "harvesting our young"

No using discarded cells, there is a difference which you obviously wouldn't see if god pointed it out to you.
207

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:38:20
223. No monsters are created. A cell culture in a dish is created. At best, if the technique is successful, the cell culture can be stimulated to differentiate into a particular type of cell - it will be a layer of cells on the surface of a dish.
208

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 18:39:19
213
An embrayo?
Are we talking ass here?
209

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:39:41
#228, not a cell culture. An embryo.
210

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:40:28
226. Perhaps. The DNA comes from a human cell, and is implanted into an animal cell from which the DNA is removed.The DNA could come from someone suffering from a disease, to grow a cell culture which is genetically identical to them for use in therapies.
211

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:42:36
230. No, a cell culture. A layer of cells attached to the sides of a plastic dish. They can never grow into an organism. AT best they can develop into a specialised cell type - as a layer, on a dish.
212

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 18:44:10
Perhaps ? That's not much of an answer.
213

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:45:01
#232, Is what I quoted from The Times at #156 wrong, then? Together with many other references to embryos in the newspapers and other media?

> "Experiments to create Britain’s first embryos that combine human and animal material will begin within months after a government watchdog gave its approval yesterday to two research teams to carry out the controversial work. Scientists at King’s College London, and the University of Newcastle will inject human DNA into empty eggs from cows to create embryos known as cytoplasmic hybrids, which are 99.9 per cent human in genetic terms." <
214

MichScot,

USA 23/03/2008 18:45:18
I have a hard time believing that any caring, thinking, RATIONAL human being would want such a thing as this to happen.

Imagine the monstrous lives that those half-people will have to endure if they are allowed to live! We already have too much prejudice to further divide ourselves through such deviant thinking!

That is, if and when they will be allowed to live. If this research is allowed, these half-human beings will be allowed to live--eventually--as an experiment of one kind or another.

And those upon whom experiments that are presently being considered--put yourself in THEIR shoes! Would YOU want to be one of them???

Pandora's box is being opened even wider than it already is!
215

hertscot,

23/03/2008 18:45:40
226
Actually I have provided exactly half of the DNA required to produce another human from a single cell. Stupidity doesn't really come into it. You would refuse people the right to a future free of pain and suffering based on ignorance of the subject and a lack of willingness to understand that a great many people will benefit in the future.
Anything that helps to relive suffering should be encouraged and supported as well as controlled. This research will take place no matter what way this vote goes, to push it to the fringes of science will only mean the it is unregulated and unchecked. The moral question is not of life but of understanding and freedom to progress. But unfortunately there are far too many who would stifle any advancement for the hman race because it does not benefit their beliefs.
For example the RC church and condoms
216

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:46:17
235. You simply have no clue, not the slightest grasp, of what you post about.

WHo are these "half humans" you refer to?

217

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 18:48:59
'embrayo'


Is that what MC Hammer says when addressing an Edinburgh audience after spending too much time with Glaswegians?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMzoBkaFxh4
218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:48:59
234. Yes, it is - the term is blastocyst, from which the stem cells are taken. "embryo" suggesting as it does the potential of a baby to grow into an mature living thing is of course far more emotive.
219

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:50:41
#236, > The moral question is not of life but of understanding and freedom to progress. <

Wasn't that why Dr Joseph Mengele conducted his experiments?

Surely they were morally wrong?
220

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 18:52:41
235 Yea Gods MichScot what if these poor half human half cow like creatures were allowed to breed with half robot monkeys????
221

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 18:53:19
Why have other countries banned it then Hertscot ? I admit I am ignorant of the techniques and the science involved in this. At a rough guess I would say about 90 % of the population are, maybe more. So the 10% get to decide this because they understand it ? How does that make you any better than the Church, peddling mysteries.
222

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 18:53:50
240. Indeed. The dropping of young jewish men into tanks of ice cold water and timing how long they take to freeze to death is somewhat removed, morally and scientifically, than harvesting cells from a foetus which is to be destroyed anyway, and culturing those cells to produce therapies for diseases? Or inserting human DNA into an animal cell, growing it into a culture and extracting proteins, for example.

But thanks for the Mengele reference, it added much.
223

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:54:49
#239, it is certainly more emotive to refer to an embryo than to a blastocyst. But is it wrong?

You probably won't think highly of Wikipedia, the handiest source; but according to Wikipedia a blastocyst is the stage next to an embryo - an embryo 'in posse'.

> The blastocyst is the structure formed in early embryogenesis, after the formation of the blastocoel, but before implantation. It possesses an inner cell mass, or embryoblast which subsequently forms the embryo, and an outer cell mass, or trophoblast which forms the placenta. The human blastocyst comprises 60-100 cells. It is preceded by a zygote, the fertilized egg cell, and succeeded by an embryo. Blastocyst formation begins between days four and five. <
224

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:56:26
#243, the Mengele reference does add much.

It shows that there are paths we can take, but shouldn't take, and that not all research is morally permissible.
225

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 18:57:52
#243 says ''harvesting cells from feotuses''.
226

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:00:11
A feotus is a child. Whether that child goes to full term or not depends on the mother's circumstances. Do the mother's know their feotus is harvested after abortion ? No wonder we are suspicious.
227

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:00:19
242. In a democracy, citizens have a certain responsibility to educate themselves and think about the issues on which they vote.
228

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:00:34
240
All experimentation could be morally wrong depending which direction you approach from, the reasons for the research are where the moral question lies.
I haven't resd anything that suggests that this work will be carried out to create 'the perfect human', and I would not subscribe to that, however, the study of genetics is possibly the only way we have of aleviating many medical conditions. It just interferes with what we have all been taught by religious indoctrinators.
Progress will occur, even if we do not agre to it, waht we have to do is ensure that there is no next Dr Joseph Mengele.
229

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:01:43
244. Embryo is being used in relation to hybrid cell creation for stem cell research to suggest that the hybrid cell could grow into a viable foetus, and from there into an animal. It cannot.
230

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:03:07
247. The foetus has been aborted - pluripotent stem cells are collected after the abortion. The abortion has nothing to do with the research.
231

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:03:11
#248 Where does one go about educating oneself on embrayonic research then ? Embrayonic research for beginers does not appear to be on the list of nightclasses at my local College.
232

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:03:28
242
I believe education is better than indoctrination, the church(of whatever sect) seeks ignorance to preserve its' status.
233

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 19:04:05
#249, thanks for a useful and moderate post. I'd undoubtedly draw the line earlier than you, but not for religious reasons. All people, of any religion or none, rightly want to ensure that there is never another Dr Mengele.
234

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:04:08
#251 You didn't answer the question do the mother's know ?
235

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/03/2008 19:04:55
The 12 Labour disciples should resign. They were elected to represent the British people not Der Nazi Fuhrer based in the based in the Vatican.
236

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:05:36
247. Alot of foetuses used for stem cell research would never even be in a womb, they are created in vitro, and are never implanted. Again, these would be destroyed anyway, like aborted foetuses.
237

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:05:58
252
start with basic biology, then basic biochemistry, or you could try reading some of the more non atheistic writing of Dawkins et al, such as the Blind Watchmaker.
238

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 19:06:20
#250, cannot because of government guidelines, or cannot because it would be physically impossible for it to do so?
239

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:07:12
255. Yes, consent of the woman is required for use of an aborted foetus in stem cell research.
240

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:07:29
~253 you didn't answer the question either why have other countries we are talking about Germany for example hardly a bastion of Catholicism banned it ?
241

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 19:07:43
245
Research which involves a thinking being. Are spermatozoa entities?Or gametes?
242

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:08:57
259. Both.
243

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:10:01
245. everyone agrees that some research is not morally permissable.
244

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:10:05
261
It reminds them of Dr Joseph Mengele. Something we wont let them forget!
245

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:10:15
#258 thank you hertscot I do not need educating in atheism this is not a religious matter why do you presume my concern is superstitious ?
246

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:12:22
What about the Australians you will not be able to think up any flippant answers there.
247

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:13:15
266
I dont, it's just that The Blind watch maker is an accessable introduction to genetics and evolutionary biology, You did ask where could you find out more!
248

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:15:02
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
(the flippany answer, 'what would they know, they're all descended from criminals')
249

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:16:36
Sorry flippant
250

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 19:17:19
267
Eh?
Are Australians immune to flippancy?
251

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 19:17:50
#259, thanks, that's useful. I don't trust the government or the scientists on this, so I'm grateful to learn that it would be a physical impossibility.

> everyone agrees that some research is not morally permissible.

I'm glad you agree. You may think it's self-evident, but it doesn't always come across from those who defend research most vigorously.
252

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:18:51
Predictable. But at least you tried.
253

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:19:52
267
No they are immune to poms
254

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:24:06
273
Just like your post, but maybe it is because we are discussing what happens in this country. That is what democracy is about, you have your view (which is wrong) and I have mine (which is right), and we can both put forward our arguments. And even in my flippancy,I still take on board your point of view. It is called freedom.
255

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 19:26:26
274
Aye that's true.
I have never seen an Australian with a wee pom on his heid.
256

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:28:01
272. I think there are areas of genetic science which require far greater debate, and regulation, and laws. I just don't think this specific example of putting human DNA into an animal cell for culture of stem cells is one.

The human genome project has completed a genetic map of the human genome. As the function of more genes is discovered, this has huge implication on how this information is used. For example, the current right for a woman to an abortion within 24 weeks does not depend on any medical or psychological reason. It would therefore be possible (in the near future) to genetically screen a foetus, in the womb or screen multiple IVF foetuses, for selection of certain characteristics, or worse as the basis for abortion. I find this abhorrent. Similarly, insurance or employment could be impacted by use of genetic info. I think regulation, debate and law has not caught up with genetics in this area, and others.
257

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:30:44
275. Indeed, abortion and divorce are not legal in some countries. The death penalty is legal in some countries. Of course there will be huge variation in law relating to areas which evoke strong opinions. Stem cell research is one, where the USA even banned use of foetal tissue from aborted foetuses, while EU countries did not. This is democracy indeed.
258

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 19:31:40
Yes, all very good Prof Ayshire, but when can I get a flying monkey?
259

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:34:50
279. A Brundel-Monkey? Is easy, Oscar - you get one of them teleport machines, a pop a monkey and a fly in one end. Eh voila, a monkey tha flies, but which may also spit up on its food and sound wooden and ham it up, like Geoff Goldbloom.
260

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 19:35:02
Perhaps you are right Ayrshire Scot I carry a genetic malfunction within me haemochromatosis I only found out about it when someone died so I am not unaware of the importance of genetics. However I am also very very uncomfortable about harvesting feotuses. There is not a logical explanation for what I feel but I am not alone in that and there is no point in accusing me of being religious or stupid. Instinct is important.
261

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 19:35:13
279
Have you ruby slippers?

They help.



262

MichScot,

USA 23/03/2008 19:36:36
Ayrshire Scot
Oscar MacApfel

Re-read paragraph two of the article. So what do you get when you cross a human with an animal? Say what you want, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
263

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:37:05
281. The foetuses used for stem cell research are destined to be destroyed anyway - as aborted foetuses or unsused foetuses from IVF. The choice is to destroy them, or use stem cells from them to help cure disease.

264

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 19:38:43
283. (1) There is no crossing - the cell has 100% human nuclear DNA and no animal DNA - the nucleus of the animal is removed, the human nucleus is inserted.

(2) The cell will never develop beyond a tissue culture and cannot develop into an animal

What do you get? A cell culture.

265

Conan the Librarian™,

23/03/2008 19:45:07
283
You get a petri dish full of useful genetic materiel.

Are you a rocket scientist?
266

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:49:28
279
It is unfortunate that when it comes to science, gut feeling has little to do with the way forward, we, you,I and every other poster has to make sure that research is for a 'common' good and not abused. I suspect that most of us worry about the rights and wrongs, but this research will happen, it probably has already. We need to regulate and control it, that way, even if your concerns cannot be completely overcome, there will at least be a mechanism to restrict our worst nigntmares to nothing more than an uncertain feeling.
267

hertscot,

23/03/2008 19:50:37
283
Arocket scientist couldn't figure it out, it is not their field.
268

uranus,

Falkirk 23/03/2008 19:52:44
From the Der Fuhrer in Vatican to the Obersturmfuhrers who were railing against the bills and advising their storm troopers to defy the 3-line whips are all men, and yet they want to say what women should do with their bodies!

Pope Pius XII and his animal cell ingestion is a no go area when it comes to discussing the current cell cultures.
269

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 20:04:01
It's not rocket salad.
270

hertscot,

23/03/2008 20:11:58
290
It is if you add parmesan and a drizzle of olive oil.
271

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 20:18:21
291. I have moral objections to olive oil. It involves the harvesting, killing and squashing of the young offspring of olive tree. I use only balsamic vinegar.
272

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 20:20:41
You heartless balsamacist!
273

hertscot,

23/03/2008 20:23:24
292
It's the same for the parmesanese, they are subject to force feeding then cruelly slaughtered just for there cheese!
274

hertscot,

23/03/2008 20:24:33
yes I kno mi sillengs crap.
275

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 20:27:08
Yes harvested for their yellow meat, have you never heard a Parmesanian aria sung on a moonless night?
276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 20:31:47
297 I Camembert these references any more.
277

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 20:35:21
Brielly?
278

hertscot,

23/03/2008 20:37:53
It could make the danish blue.
279

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 20:40:49
300. I dairy say so.
280

haggis 10,

Capital City of Scotland 23/03/2008 20:45:41
KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS
281

hertscot,

23/03/2008 20:48:19
keep religion out of milk.
282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 20:54:50
303. get out of my whey
283

hertscot,

23/03/2008 20:58:29
I curd be persuaded to put my stilt on.
284

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 21:02:05
305. in that casein, carry on
285

hertscot,

23/03/2008 21:03:42
Your just trying to butter us up aren't you?
286

DER FUHRER,

23/03/2008 21:12:22
Ayrshire Scot speaks sense.

These MPs should remember that their beliefs have nothing to do with their representation of their consituents. I'd be very unhappy if my MP voted against progress because of his superstitious adherence to some stupid cult.

I think that, as these issues become ever more complex, if MPs are to be allowed a free vote in line with their conscience, then they are going to have to openly declare their religion before asking people to vote for them. How else would you be able to make a judgment on how they were likely to vote on an issue that you held firm views about?
287

DER FUHRER,

23/03/2008 21:12:47
Ayrshire Scot speaks sense.

These MPs should remember that their beliefs have nothing to do with their representation of their consituents. I'd be very unhappy if my MP voted against progress because of his superstitious adherence to some stupid cult.

I think that, as these issues become ever more complex, if MPs are to be allowed a free vote in line with their conscience, then they are going to have to openly declare their religion before asking people to vote for them. How else would you be able to make a judgment on how they were likely to vote on an issue that you held firm views about?
288

DER FUHRER,

23/03/2008 21:13:00
Ayrshire Scot speaks sense.

These MPs should remember that their beliefs have nothing to do with their representation of their consituents. I'd be very unhappy if my MP voted against progress because of his superstitious adherence to some stupid cult.

I think that, as these issues become ever more complex, if MPs are to be allowed a free vote in line with their conscience, then they are going to have to openly declare their religion before asking people to vote for them. How else would you be able to make a judgment on how they were likely to vote on an issue that you held firm views about?
289

DER FUHRER,

23/03/2008 21:14:08
sorry about the repeat posting (dodgy PC)
290

DER FUHRER,

23/03/2008 21:14:56
sorry about the repeat posting (dodgy PC)
291

Tarchin,

Lothian 23/03/2008 21:20:35
124. Perhaps no benefits YET. Give British science, which is very well regulated and controlled, its chance. The genie is out of the bottle if UK does not do this work other countries will.
292

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 23:00:41
312 comments and not one removal,'my, my' that's good going! :-)
293

m davis,

Suffolk 23/03/2008 23:44:37
It appears that there are almost no moral values left in this world let alone country. People must have changed...No one in the UK hardly believes in the christian religion anymore...or morality... the internet has twisted people minds. I feel sick knowing that one person supports the embryo bill with animals.. It is disgusting, immoral and there is no major urgency to cure any illness and now we have one huge excuse that it needs to be done to find a cure for all kinds of illnesses. Its a disgusting money making program -- dont you get it?? and the 200 Charities are in on it too.. I will never give to a charity again...God help us all
294

m davis,

Suffolk 23/03/2008 23:46:19
But then again most people who peddle the internet are twisted morons anyway.
295

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 23:46:56
How I love political pressure groups.
Thank God you only get them with Democracies.
296

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (edinburgh) 24/03/2008 00:24:26
I'm reserving judgement on this debate until I know what Heather Mills thinks. Rat's milk genetically modofied could be a tasty treat for all the family.

here in edinburgh you're never more than fifty feet away from a vegan
297

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 24/03/2008 00:27:55
#283 Rocket scientist? I think you'll find rocket is a salad herb, so a rocket scientist would be pitifully ill-equipped to comment on these matters.
298

Resolutions,

24/03/2008 01:03:27
#205 Are you really suggesting that anyone with 'faith- any faith' cannot be a scientist?

On your bike.

Most of the big advances in science, have been made by folk with faith.

Everyone is entitled to express their view and with this type of 'research', a lot of people are very uneasy about its direction. Besides by going down this route, and it is being portrayed as the only route, it is stiffling other avenues which should and ought to be explored. In fact the hysterics over this are holding back 'ethical' research, if you like.
299

mmt,

Glasgow 24/03/2008 08:55:27
I thought the whole point of this article was that 12 ministers decided they were going to fight for their democratic right to vote and choose for themselves, why does everything have to get round to bible bashing, not only catholics or Christians are uncomfortable with this bill.

16 – I think many catholics embrace modern science, the bone of contention here is the creation of life which the catholic/Christian church argues shouldn’t be done medically that only God can create life. And before the bashing starts not ALL catholics subscribe to this theory I’m a catholic and had IVF to conceive my one and only cherished child and firmly believe that where there is life there is god, my son is loved and adored and if god hadn’t wanted him to be here he wouldn’t have survived a 16 week premature birth and a 5% survival rate to be the happy healthy boy he is now

20 – (a) Mary wasn’t married to joseph at the time of the virgin impregnating I’m afraid she was single so god has as much right at a shot as anyone else by your ‘standards’ if you want to break a key part of someones faith down into a cheap innuendo and your lines “are you using the standard Catholic and biblical “ and “How can any Catholic now claim their god does not approve of various sexual activities and means of reproduction” offends me (as im sure it was meant to) catholics are not the only ones who follow the old testament you know, Christians and Jews (our old testament is their Tanakh) do also. It’s not exclusively ours

21 – I’m extremely confused and perhaps misread your comment, Catholics are very much Christians, a belief in Christ is one of the foundations of our faith and if we followed the Anti-Christ would that not make us Satanists????

30 – Very reasonable argument, all catholic priests are child molesters?? Of course they are, and all Australians wear hats with dangling corks, all scots are redheads and Italians only ever eat pasta and pizza as it is the law!!!! All stereotypes o
300

Poetess,

Dundee 24/03/2008 12:47:29
Mutant Embryos....good name for a band! :-)
301

MichScot,

USA 24/03/2008 14:20:14
You guys are so funny!
302

MichScot,

USA 24/03/2008 14:24:53
Keep science out of morals!
303

MichScot,

USA 24/03/2008 18:33:19
So you won't eat genetically modified food, but you'll accept genetically modified genes for your bodies...
304

bluehead,

edinburgh 25/03/2008 09:51:07
democracy! what democracy?that was done away with many years ago.
it is a pity that only 12 MPs threatened to resiegn
if the whole lot of them did that just think of the vast improvement there would be in this country
they seem to be people for no seasons
what a pile!
305

donald,

glasgow 30/03/2008 07:49:16
12 ministers 'to quit' over embryo bill
(Tony will have to clone some more. Won't he?)
306

eric,

30/03/2008 08:04:20
HURRY UP AND GET TODASYS PAPER OOT !
307

baron george foulkes etc...,

30/03/2008 09:58:17
Gordon broon needs to be more selective when employing ministers you can't run the country with this taleban style attitude I see fragments af De Valeras Ireland creeping in here.
DO NOT LET THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PULL THE STRINGS!!
and before any body makes an assumption about me I am an ex catholic so I know what they are like.

 

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