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Election chaos unacceptable, say observers

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Published Date: 06 May 2007
INTERNATIONAL observers last night labelled the Holyrood election voting chaos "totally unacceptable".
Robert Richie, executive director of US-based Fair Vote, was among more than 30 experts from North America who watched Scottish democracy in action. But he said the difficulties, which saw one in 10 votes rejected, amounted to Scotland's version of the "hanging chads" fiasco in Florida which marred the 2000 US presidential election.

Meanwhile, Scotland on Sunday can reveal that government chiefs pressed ahead with disastrous reforms to Holyrood's voting system despite dozens of warnings from councils, experts and citizen rights groups that the plans would throw the elections into chaos.

Richie said the difficulty arose from the design and instructions on the ballot papers and lack of consistency in judging which ballots were spoiled.

"The most fundamental flaw was the ballot design of the party and constituency votes in two columns on the same page, rather than on separate pages.

"Also, it seems confusion was caused by the change in the rules which allowed parties to use the names of leaders, rather than the party, in the first column. We saw this with the SNP's 'Alex Salmond for First Minister' and 'Tommy Sheridan Solidarity'. Some people may have thought they were voting for candidates."

The delegation of foreign observers was in Scotland at the invitation of the Electoral Reform Society, which has condemned the problems that engulfed the Holyrood polls.

Richie, from Washington, said he did not believe the problems were caused by holding two separate elections - for parliament and councils - on the same day. He also said the introduction of a new system of proportional representation voting in the local authority poll was not to blame.

He added: "There are undoubtedly lessons to be learned. It's totally unacceptable to have so many votes spoiled. There are parallels with the problems in the presidential election in Florida."

Richie also expressed concern about a lack of uniform standards in judging which votes were rejected and which were deemed to be valid. "It seemed that votes on one side of the room that were thought to be OK - on the other side of the room would have been rejected."

Scotland on Sunday has verified that more than 81,000 votes were spoiled following Thursday's vote - equivalent to the turnout of three entire constituencies.

Ministers in the Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office pressed on with reforming the ballot to have two Holyrood votes on one page and local government elections on the same day, claiming it would make the election fairer and increase turnout. But they are now facing allegations they did so in the full knowledge that they were risking catastrophe.

Sir John Arbuthnott, who led a commission into voting arrangements two years ago, issued a statement last night restating his opposition to the way both the Scottish Parliament election and Council elections were held on the same day.

Arbuthnott said: "We recommended, supporting previous views, that the Scottish Parliament and local government elections should not be held on the same day, partly to reduce voter confusion. However, this was not accepted by the Scottish Executive."

Mike Russell, elected as an SNP MSP on Thursday, and a member of the commission, said: "This decision alone proves to me is that at the very least they aren't fit to govern. They did this for party advantage, thinking that they could get the vote up in councils."

Experts say that the problems were then compounded when the election ballot paper was drawn up. A draft of the paper was circulated to experts who insisted that it was entirely unacceptable.

Aberdeen City Council warned that the paper "would lead to confusion".

Both Capability Scotland, which represents disabled people, and the Electoral Reform Society said the paper should be increased in size, to avoid confusion. South Ayrshire Council said the paper was "unnecessarily complex" and would "be confusing for voters".

Sources in the Scotland Office insisted last night that the paper had been much clearer when it was finally produced.

But one insider close to the negotiations said: "We put it to them that the paper should be bigger, to make the text easier to read. But they said they could not do it because it would be too expensive and that the papers would have to fit the machines they had already chosen. They had already selected the company and the machines and everything had to fit in around that. It was like talking to a brick wall."

The confusion was compounded in Edinburgh and Glasgow after the Scotland Office - which was in charge of the election - dropped a set of arrows telling people where to vote. The decision was taken because of the large number of parties on the regional list.

Party activists said many papers were spoiled because people did not realise they could mark two votes on their Holyrood sheet. Consequently, thousands of people left their constituency vote blank.

Professor of politics at Strathclyde University John Curtice said: "It seems that the biggest problem was with the design of the ballot paper, which at the top said that you had two votes and then said further down, mark one X in each column. It seems that a lot of people may have been putting two Xs in the same column, which would cause their ballot papers to be rejected."

Stephen Purcell, the Labour leader of Glasgow City Council, said: "It's surely not a coincidence there were so many spoilt papers at the same time as a new electoral system was introduced. This is unacceptable."

Labour sources said that none of the other political parties objected to the changes, apart from the Scottish Pensioner's party.

A spokesman said: "We went back to people time and time again and held focus groups all over the country to test this."

Ministers within the Scotland Office are known to be angered at the claims they are to blame for the problems because, they say, they were only following recommendations.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 May 2007 12:06 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Holyrood Elections
 
1

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/05/2007 02:05:48

Quote: Election chaos unacceptable, say observers........totally agree :)

2

Ian_,

usa 06/05/2007 02:24:33

I saw a sample ballot for the first time a few days before the election and my first thought was that it was terribly complicated. Still, I thought that the organisers must have considered the format carefully. It seems that they did but then decided to ignore important feedback.

3

Bill, Dunblane,

06/05/2007 02:24:37

Unfortunately New Labour's results didn't work the way they were told they would.

Somebody messed up badly - how can you win an election if the voters don't behave the way they should?

All that money spent on electronic counting machines to rig an election - NO manual checking alowed. (Neil Kinnock says 'Thanks' BTW - well, actually he wen't on for an hour, but everyone fell asleep)

A new election beckons, but only if the press is excluded.

4

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 02:56:40

#Ian_, usa

i think we got the ballot they wanted us to get .. these papers were tested beforehand .. now lets hear what happened to that ..., and some information on who is 'looking after' the spoiled ballot papers would be good too

I hope they aren't stacked in a cupboard at No10 !

5

Wisnaeme,

06/05/2007 03:09:44

.
Would these international observers be prepared as witnesses to swear under oath what they had observed? More to the point would Labour and the establishment allow them to do so?
In answer to the second question; Hell would freeze over before they would allow a judicial inquiry to perform it's just remit without their interference even in the unlikely event they allowed one to proceed in the first instance. They have too much to lose, beezness has too much to lose to allow a nation to regain it's self respect and dignity through due process of law and a citizen's right for their vote to count. Shambles followed by sham will be their preferred option, Sod the people.Not even at elections do all their votes count any longer. There must be something better than this.
Eck ye have an uphill stuggle ahead of ye, even with the goodwill of many folk depending on ye and yer team to rid of this p*sh we've been served up for years.
.
.

6

"Suck"-=-McCrunchie,

Dont vote it just encourages them 06/05/2007 03:55:02

I have said it many places here - but it needs to be rerun or we look like a banana republic.

7

AlanSmart,

Falkirk West 06/05/2007 04:06:00

"Labour sources said that none of the other political parties objected to the changes, apart from the Scottish Pensioner's party. A spokesman said: "We went back to people time and time again and held focus groups all over the country to test this. Ministers within the Scotland Office are known to be angered at the claims they are to blame for the problems because, they say, they were only following recommendations"

The dissemblers are already out in force. But the responsibility for the conduct of Holyrood elections lies solely with the UK Government exercised via the Scotland Office. Indeed it is now one of the few functions the Scotland Office has, and on Thursday it palpably failed in the exercise of them

Douglas Alexander MP, Secretary of State for Scotland, and his Under Secretary of State should immediately resign, There are many resigning issues, but surely none greater than a failure to put in place a proper voting system, one that has disenfranchised near 10% of voters and in so doing bring democracy itself into disrepute?.

That other parties were consulted on ballot pear designs is near irrelevant. Political parties, government or opposition ones, are not paid to run our electoral system, nor are any of them accountable to the electorate. It is Government ministers that we pay and are accountable to us all of us.

The Electoral Commission is headed up in Scotland by Andy O'Neil, ex COSLA (Labour) and a former Labourt Party member. Has as its Scottish Commissioner Sir Neil McIntosh ex COSLA(Labour) and Ex Strathclyde Region Chief Executive ( Labour ) has played far from an honourable role in all of this but it is merely an advisory agent in terms do all the strategic decisions. All the strategic decision have been taken by the Secretary of State for Scotland Douglas Alexander MP, in many instances delegated to Under Secretary of State David Cairns.

In any other country in the world they would have gone now as

8

AlanSmart,

Falkirk West 06/05/2007 04:06:27

(cont)

There is so much more to this , but it is a proper independent, inquiry , with international involvement , that is urgently needed,

Douglas Alexander’s insistence that a review being carried out by the seriously complicit Electoral Commission is this independent review, not only adds insult to injury , bur proves, if further proof were needed, his total unsuitability for public office. It also suggests he has something rather big to hide.

Yet Gordon Brown is preparing to promote him

Please sign this e -petition on the voting scandal and do all you can to get it to others to give them the same opportunity. People can, and in this case must, triumph over politicians

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ScottishVoteScandal2007/

9

,

06/05/2007 05:16:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

Ian_,

usa 06/05/2007 05:47:13

#11. I like the idea of international observers at all major elections. In this case our election was a shambles. We should be ashamed of it and embarrassed by it and take steps to make sure there's no repetition. I doubt if the US-based group observing our elections would disagree with you about the US or Nigeria elections you mentioned.

11

Brisbane Scot,

06/05/2007 06:20:13

Isnt it an amazing thing that the SNP did..... They had an anglified media producing daily propaganda articles against the SNP...... stooges on these forums spreading untruths about the SNP...... the Labour, Liberal and Tory parties using scare tactics at the grass roots level....... the Liberal/Labour Alliance choosing an unworkable voting system contrary to advice from credible bodies........A voting counting system that has failed in florida and has Neil Kinnock as a Director........ the most senior appointees to the key positions in the election all being Labour supporters......a media system that nas not been filling its front pages with calls for the resignation of all responsable. Really strange that all of the above has and is continueing to happen in our country which was the mother of most legal systems in the supposed free world.

Well done SNP. A very sad day for Scotlands People and more of the disgraceful corruption and lies of an evil UK Parliament.

12

Sceptic of Midlothian,

Midlothian 06/05/2007 06:27:21

The story says <<Scotland on Sunday can reveal that government chiefs pressed ahead with disastrous reforms to Holyrood's voting system despite dozens of warnings ...would throw the elections into chaos.>>

There is one thing missing from this story. The identity of these "government chiefs". I bet they are part of the grey faceless mafia of Victoria Quay, as ever managing their own agenda, irrespective of the result. This is the real scandal. They'll never be identified, and of course, never made to take the blame.

13

donald,

weegieland 06/05/2007 06:51:36

There at least 100,000 reasons for welcoming a rerun, not counting thiose who made mistakes.

14

Kingston,

China 06/05/2007 06:56:49

There must be a public inquiry and a re-run under international supervision. This electoral mess goes to the core of why the UK under Labour is corrupt.

Labour knew they would lose, so the best remedy was to create confusion, as they have done.

15

Heidegger,

Fife 06/05/2007 07:08:24

This balls-up is typical of the standards -
"world-class" etc - attained in every part
of the public sector in Scotland. What
Scotland needs is the immediate removal
of every Labour appointed civil servant
& local authority wallah & their replacement by competent "outsiders".

16

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 06/05/2007 07:32:09

Seven years ago I watched in disbelief as the shambles of hanging chads, dimpled chads and pregnant chads unfolded in George Bush territory - an eerie foretaste of the incompetence, and the fundamentally undemocratic processes that were to be the mark of his administration, one of the worst in USA history.
I wonder what the future for Scotland will be.
As my old granny used to say:
Politicians - they couldnae run a menage.

17

frhugh,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 07:33:34

I am not going to indulge in a party v party slanging match. For the record, I did not vote for either of the two main parties involved.
There must be an independent public inquiry, then a re-election following their findings.
That is if posters are true democrats, despite whatever party allegiance.

18

williamx,

Delta, Canada 06/05/2007 07:39:46

Banana republic? Not so you have dear old Queenie at the top who was wise enough to be somewhere else. Lets see. A constitutional monarchy banana perhaps?

19

Ubi,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 08:15:10

The one thing of which we can be sure is that the electoral arrangements were made because its creators – Douglas Alexander & Co we are told – believed that some form of advantage would accrue to their own side. It is inconceivable that the arrangements were made simply for the betterment of democracy. Somewhere in Whitehall a calculation would have been made that Labour would benefit from the confusion which would ensue. Perhaps they believed that the elderly, Tory faithful were more likely to be confused. Or that their own welfare estates were unlikely to vote at all so no penalty would be incurred there. I kid you not, that is the thinking of these serpents.

They are many things these people. Clever, determined, resourceful, utterly devious and with a fluid concept of honesty. There are qualities they lack in abundance though – competence for one. Most of them have never run anything as complicated as a whelk stall. They talk – oh do they talk – but when it comes to delivering they are often way off the mark. Honour for another. They will try to defy the will of the electorate – the one clear thing about the result is a vote for change – like a tumour resisting eradication.

So to find that the whole charade backfired and may have cost them not only this election but their entire future is almost indescribably joyous. There can be but one overwhelming consideration. However unintended, justice was done.

20

Phil C,

06/05/2007 08:20:56

Labour's new election format, like McConnell's time at the helm, is a disgrace to Scotland. These numpties should never be allowed anywhere near power EVER.

When will those who continue to vote for them realise that the whole Labour 'thing' is based on arrogance, lies and state manipulation. Even now I firmly believe that some of them will still vote for Labour- despite the stench of dishonesty and incompetence! Poor lost souls.

21

Auld-Yin,

Musselburgh 06/05/2007 08:34:41

"Ministers within the Scotland Office are known to be angered at the claims they are to blame for the problems because, they say, they were only following recommendations."

Once again Ministers refusing to accept blame. They were given recommendations - they were not told what to do.

These are the people who are supposed to be leading and taking decisions yet when it comes back on them they say they were only following recommendations. Those Ministers involved should resign now or be sacked because if they cannot lead they are not fit for the job. Why bother with Ministers if they "only follow recommendations"?

22

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 08:37:12

How on earth some voters failed to complete two self-explanatory ballot papers is incredible? No doubt, like at every election, thousands were deliberately spoiled but the large number of rejected ballots only points to a section of the Scottish voting population who are completely devoid of common sense, never mind intelligence?
In the highly unlikely event of a re-run, the same voters would probably get it wrong again?
The Electoral Commission website statistics for
recent U.K. elections highlights the large numbers of rejected ballots! Strangely, the Electoral Reform Society website provides all sorts of statistics but nothing on rejected ballots? Many would agree that these voters probably deserve to be dis- enfranchised if they cannot follow simple instructions. Lachie Todd.

23

Phil Lawrence,

Tallinn, Estonia 06/05/2007 08:56:46

The following is an extract from an article in the Sunday Telegraph. If Labour, and Allan Wilson in particular, are keen to challenge the election result then perhaps they should examine why the confusion arose. It’s not as is if they weren’t warned!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

"Ensuring the fairness of elections, and the integrity of their results, is one of the most fundamental tasks of any government that claims to be democratic. The present Government failed to perform that task in Scotland last week. The elections for Scotland's devolved parliament, and for its local authorities, have been indelibly stained by the discovery that more than 100,000 ballot papers were invalid because voters failed to fill in the forms correctly.

"The election can hardly be thought to be a reliable expression of the will of the people when so many people's votes have been excluded from it. International observers, of whom there were many, were united in their condemnation of the process as 'scandalous', 'shambolic' and 'a disaster.'

"The effective disenfranchisement of 2.5 per cent of the electorate was utterly unnecessary. That it happened is a testament to shocking incompetence rather than to malice. The incompetence was the product of arrogance. Scotland's administration, a coalition between Labour and the Liberal Democrats, commissioned a report from Professor Sir John Arbuthnott on the best way to hold the elections for the devolved parliament and for local councils.

"Prof Arbuthnott's commission came back with the recommendation that the elections for councils and for the parliament should not be held on the same day: the potential for voter confusion was simply too great. Having commissioned that report, the Scottish executive then did what Labour seems to do with most of the rep

24

millport curler,

the bicycle island 06/05/2007 09:01:47

7#

I have said it many places here - but it needs to be rerun or we look like a banana republic.

A rerun is unnecessary - a hand recount would be sufficient - preferably with a different returning officer

25

Rab McClair,

FREE (TO LIE TO) SCOTLAND ...?????? 06/05/2007 09:15:55

It really isn't good enough for government ministers to hide behind the "best advice" defence. The simple facts are that the election was severely tainted by the flaws and we were actually very LUCKY that the labour party were not returned.....and not for political reasons...but if the election HAD returned say a small LABOUR majority, then (quite rightly) ALL HELL would have broken loose. Indeed, it is not to ridiculous to suppose that we COULD have had civil disorder on our streets..it's THAT serious.
In the circumstances, where there is any whiff of impropriety or incompetence, any honourable man would resign and leave the stage. The debate should move on to a Judicial enquiry asap, ....and if a re-run was deemed necessary post that examination,the election should be repeated......but with the press and newspapers allowed only to explain fully the election dates, procedures etc (which could easily be confusing to the elderly, infirm, etc).
The press should also be banned from any election comment (perhaps with only statements of equal length printed on behalf of the parties).....and commisioned polling should be discontinued.
Only in that way will the public BEGIN to believe that they are NOT being manipulated, and we MIGHT just begin again to believe that our various newspapers aren't "spinning" us, in order to maximise their earnings from the ruling Executive, of whatever colour or persuasion.
If we ARE to review our election procedures, let's do it root and branch

26

Boy Wonder,

06/05/2007 09:36:04

My dad always used to tell me that "the party that got into power then threw democracy out as unworkable for them, would be the one who would stay on forever". Looks like he had a point with this New Labour mob!

27

Night Owl,

Edinburgh Scotland 06/05/2007 09:43:41

There has to be an independent inquiry into this complete and total Scottish Election disaster, and I would go further in mentioning that we should re-run the whole election again and this time go back to the "OLD" tried and tested methods in doing it.
This shambolic mess has resulted in Scotland being reduced theoretically to some "Banana Republic". A lot of money has been spent on devising and augmenting a voting system that we were told was throughly tried and tested, and yet failed.
The whole election should have been "Stopped" when it was perceived that something was gravely amiss.
Taking all the given factors into consideration, when and if this independent inquiry ever takes place,the people who organized this farce should resign, as it is on their watch that all this happened and they have to bear the full responsabilty for this disaster. No excuses and the "Wisna Me" does not work here.
The result has ended in politicians having policies that would enable them to govern Scotland just becoming a farce.
What a way to show the rest of the world that Scotland is a country with a modern future when we have all this happening.
Re-do this election ASAP and this time get it right.!!!

28

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

Oban West Coast Of Scotland 06/05/2007 09:45:54

BLA-IRAQ HAS FAILED AND HIS LEGACY IS FAILURE So ANDY KERR ya! woose, Don’t dare come on the TV and say the 100 thousand votes discounted would have spread fairly over the parties it wouldn’t have .This system was deliberately set up by the labour government to prejudice SNP voters and the groups the SNP had targeted to help.
The voting system by post would have been used mainly by old age pensioners.One promise from Alex is no council tax for OAPs ,and lots of them knew this. Also the disabled Alex Salmond had pages of promises’ for the disabled The papers were complicated if you were colour blind, as the two forms were in different colours? Helping who and prejudicing who? A basic, basic understanding and golden rule in marketing never put two columns together as mistakes can happen never mind being dyslexic? Delibereate and calculating no mistakes and as Bla-iraq says it worked better than he had expected, BLIAR BLAIR

29

exiles,

outside scotland 06/05/2007 10:02:51

Can you really accept the results of the election as sound? Should it be scrapped and held again?

30

Sparky,

Hamilton 06/05/2007 10:10:04

How on earth did DRS get the contract for these elections.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23395179-detai...

Have Labour shot themselves in the foot.

31

JD,

06/05/2007 10:41:58

#16. Rulesbutnotrulers
I am happy that there are so many "Intelligent" people out there who completely understood the Ballot Papers... Good for you lot..
Unfortunately.. there were quite a few who didn't understand them... This does not imply that they are "Numpties" etc...

32

Wheech,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 10:57:15

As a priority the word must go out that the cock-up in vote countrng was not the fault of the Scottish Parliament, or the ineptness of the voters, but the Westerminster office known as the 'Scottish Office'

33

ScotsLass58,

Red Ken's Toon 06/05/2007 11:02:23

#24 Phil C
The problem we all have is that there is a significant number of Labour voters who vote Labour due to a Genetic Defect. It is called the Hereditary Labour Gene Defect. This is a problem caused at birth and is the result of their Great Grandfather, Grandfather and Father all voting Labour. Net result they have to vote Labour too (irrespective of its policies), if they don't they are kicked out the family home! People suffering from this disease are too frightened to look into non-Labour policies without being led by the hand by New Labour. After all whatever Blair, Broon etc say about other parties must be true, after all they would never lie to anyone now would they?

34

Ralph Kramden,

06/05/2007 11:10:40

We dont even have an independent Scotland and yet they (Scottish politicians) have managed to turn it into a third world country.

I hear that the next election will be supervised by election monitors from Rwanda and Uganda.....

Still I'm sure the Hamishes and tartan Jimmies are happy!!!

35

Ralph Kramden,

06/05/2007 11:12:27

#21 - would that be the same Queen who is still your "Head of State" :-)

36

JamesT,

Austria 06/05/2007 11:15:33

McConnell UnIon (SO)cannae even set up an election right so it proves were better of doing this ourselve in future.

NUMPTIES

37

Artemis,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 11:32:16

I worked as a polling clerk at my local polling station on Thursday.341 people cast their vote at that polling station. To [italic]every single one[/italic] of those voters, we said "the white paper is the council paper and it goes into the white box. You're asked to rank these candidates in order of your preference, with 1 being your first choice and 10 being your last choice. You can rank as many or as few of them as you like, you do not have to do them all. The coloured paper is your parliamentary paper and it goes in the black box. You are asked to make one cross on each side of the paper. When you're done, please don't fold the paper, just slide it flat into the box. Please ask us if you have any questions."

In addition to us explaining, there were posters all over the polling station and in each individual voting booth. Many people came back out of the booth to ask for more clarification, and many people actually asked for advice on [italic]how[/italic] to deliberately spoil their paper.

When does it stop becoming everybody else's fault and start being the problem of the individual voter? How much more clear could we have made it?

38

alexander/,

irvine 06/05/2007 11:49:59

im now happy that the SNP won but it should have been more as i witnessed from the elections were obvious labour voters rejecting SNP votes i complained and them bumped out the way being told that they were spoiled this is obvious rigging of the votes

kick labour out i say!

39

Shenachy,

Queensferry 06/05/2007 11:57:41

#40 "We dont even have an independent Scotland and yet they (Scottish politicians) have managed to turn it into a third world country. "

You're spot on! The responsibility for elections to the Scottish Parliament lies solely with the 'Scotland Office', a department of the Westminster Parliament which is run by Labour's Mr Alexander - a Scot, like most of those running Westminster. (not to be confused with their highly intelligent colleagues who have been running the Scottish Executive.)

40

Mady1,

Glasgow 06/05/2007 11:58:04

#16
I made a mistake by putting a cross instead of a number, realised this straight away, so put number 1 beside the cross. I told the clerk at the box who said it would be ok and be counted, I now find that is rubbish...like the whole system!
Some people maybe didn't have time to read the voters card so were still unsure of how the system worked.
#43 Not all clerks at all polling stsations were as clear with instructions as you obviously were.
I think there should be a rerun.

41

Gordon,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 12:01:08

#16 & 36 Rulesbutnotrulers - We will not see the time of decisions by referenda until the farce of electronic voting has been corrected. It is just too expensive to have votes on every item on a government's agenda.

"The basic fact is that around 85% of eligible Scots did not vote for independence." - True, if you replace "independence" with "SNP", but that also means that more than 85% did not vote for NL.

You suggest that decisions should be made by referenda, and the SNP agrees, for the most important ones.

42

PDQ,

Edinburgh 06/05/2007 12:11:28

North American observers naturally compare what they saw with Florida 2000, but no need to look so far away or so long ago.

Over 550,000 votes were rejected in the 2004 London election, conducted with exactly the same mix of 3 different voting systems as 3rd May.

The London Evening Standard reported: "Voters baffled by the different systems used to elect the Mayor and assembly members ended up marking their ballots in the wrong places, rendering them invalid. Some 385,952 votes were unable to be counted for the mayoral poll and a further 167,071 were ruled in breach of rules for the assembly election. Electors had been asked to cast first and second preference votes for a mayoral candidate and two votes for the London Assembly - one to elect a local constituency member in a similar way to electing an MP, and the other to choose a party to represent the city on a 'Londonwide' basis. "

To ignore recommendations from Arbuthnott might be ascribed to poor judgement by the Scotland Office and the Scottish Executive, but to forge ahead regardless and in full knowledge of the 2004 London election debacle, is grossly incompetent or worse. They have demonstrated they are not fit to govern.

An enquiry that is independent of all those invovled in organising the 3rd May election is now necessary, as called for by Sir David Steel and Alex Salmond.

Meantime, if the new Lib Dem MSPs frustrate the will of the electorate to have change and stable government in Scotland during the next 4 years, the elecorate will not forgive them.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-11317425-detai...

43

ivor,

Paignton 06/05/2007 12:21:42

"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle."

Perhaps its about time the English gave up being governed by the tired Scots and tried the Irish. It would give Murph'ys Law a better chance.

44

Anthony,

Glasgow 06/05/2007 12:27:43

It's no funny any more. Every time our public sector are asked to perform anything with a modicum of complexity, they make a dogs dinner of it. Nothing will improve until someone grabs the bull by the horns, and tackles the infestation of incompetence which has long gripped our public sector.

45

Steve Foley,

Education 06/05/2007 12:40:22

This was an accident waiting to happen! from 1970 until 1997 I was involved as Candidate, Councillor and Assistant Agent in many Elections and all had worked weel, even when from 1979 it became the norm for General and Local Council Elections to be held on the same day . Now all they did was to issue two papers of different colours for each Election. The Parliamentary Election was the usual white papers, the Local Council was Grey with a Black Box around it. Both had in bold lettering at the top the number of votes that could be made on each. One for Parliament, and in some cases up to 3 for the Council. Now this seemed to work with only a few confused papers where someone tried to vote for 3 Candidates for Parliament and if a constituency vote had more than 30 spoilt papers that was noteworthy.

BTW to write "none of the above" is NOT being funny as one poster has said. It is a quite legitimate option and shows that the elector in question had at least taken the trouble to vote but was not satisfied with the choice of parties available.

To put both FPTP and Regional List on the same piece of paper, even if colour coded, then adding a brand new STV Ballot Paper with "1-2-3" instead of "X" was a recipe for disaster and to compound this by using machine counting and easily damaged cardboard Ballot Boxes instead of the good old Black Metal Boxes was abject folly! The analogy of the Pi55 Up in a Brewery comes to mind.

It's too late now as a re-run or a collection of Election Courts to challenge individual results would turn a drama into a total farce, Holyrood will have to work with the results it has.

My suggestion for the next time is as follows:-

1 Do all the work in house, no private "for profit" organisation's to be used. Local Councils to print all Ballot Papers etc and to issue all Postal Votes in due time themselves, via the Royal Mail, not sub-contracted to some shower of Cowboys.

2

46

Pictus,

Silverbush 06/05/2007 13:28:26

#11, Jacobite - There is a piece of real estate, a continent, called North America but there is no such person as a "north american". There are only self-styled americans, mexicans and canadians. Americans have great voting problems, mexicans seem to have few difficulties and canadians use a simple paper ballot and a short, stubby pencil with a lot of lead in it.

47

Gaga,

Panama 06/05/2007 14:05:01

The Scotland Office made a shop-front of the Ballycastle-Campbelton ferry tender, so its no surprise they were unable to manage the election. Where is wee Duggy Alexander, by the way?

48

Moder8,

Scotland 06/05/2007 14:49:23

After this voting shambles with its usual low turnout perhaps it is time to adopt a system similar to that used by Australia and some other countries viz:

"Compulsory Voting in Australia

The electoral roll is a list of all people who are registered to vote in Australian elections. In Australia, all citizens over the age of 18 must enrol to vote. It is compulsory by law to enrol and compulsory by law to attend a polling place at election time."

49

Briar,

Eilean Siar 06/05/2007 14:57:36

Whilst I can agree that the ballot was a flawed one and unfair and probably that this was a deliberate ploy by the BLAIR Party, I would like to point out that it is not that important and has nothing to do with Democracy.

Democracy means that The People make the decisions.

Elections mean that the people are only allowed to choose among candidate presented by PARTIES, and then that Politicians make the decisions.

If you want Democracy you have to abolish politicans and parties and voting in elections, and replace them with frequent plebicites for all major matters, and do your day to day legislature small matter crim cram by filling the legislature with ordinary people. The most certain way to make sure that you are selecting a range of people who represent the range of views there are is to select them all at random - in effect a lottery, except that instead of winning a money prize you get an Order to Attend the Holyrood Parliament for a month. As a Duty. There should be absolutely no impression of Privilege about it. Everyone's jobs would be held open and their employer / business compensated for their absence or a temp supplied for the service period. Eveyone would receive as payment exactly what they would normally have received that month, and in addition, all justified expenses would be paid, against a proper receipt only though. No private jets or first class rail tickets or limos allowed, and no expensive dinner parties at state expense.

In one month it should be difficult to become power corrupted. One could start a new bill, but never finish it before one left. Successive groups of ordinary people would learn all about democracy and how to make it function, and leave knowing that they had done their duty and would never be asked to serve again in the same capacity. Those who try to lobby and influence polits, even to bribe them, and do so successfully, would no longer have the time needed to build up the trust and t

50

Exasperated,

Guildford 06/05/2007 15:01:32

They can't even get the numbers right - how does 100,000 uncounted votes amount to '1 in 10'?? Are they saying there was only 1,000,000 ballot papers or 1,000,000 voters? Either way it's completely wrong & is simply spin. Shambles yes (thanks to Labour in Westminster, the Scottish Office, Douglas Alexander & cronies), but the SNP won, end of story. Challenging one result must mean challenges to many others and then where do we go? It's unbelievable that Labour & McConnell are so small & selfish as to even contemplate challenges - there were recounts for God's sake!! It's also a laugh that Labour say they will set up a 'confrontation watch' (per George Foulkes) of the SNP when Labour have done nothing but confront opponents and absolutely don't work with others - they won't even work with the Scottish people after a vote!!! What a mean-spirited, selfish, lying bunch of chancers they are.

51

Rami,

New Hampshire 06/05/2007 15:48:06

#1 Soooo, what is, is???
#59 Soooo, what country is really the "Best"?

52

okanaganguy,

kelowna, b.c. canada 06/05/2007 15:55:54

#55. Sad but true. It is too bad that the voter turnout was not larger on such an important issue. It would appear that the majority of Scots are happy with the status quo. It was also interesting to note that the Labor party did as well as they did in a country that is fed up with English Rule. regards

53

Steve Foley,

England 06/05/2007 16:01:41

One thing can be said for the system used for the Holyrood Elections. At least you get to vote for a PERSON as well as a PARTY.

Now in the Euro-Elections they use the Closed List "De Hont" system to elect British MEPs (except in Ulster which uses STV) . Under this system although there are names listed on the Ballot Paper the Elector only gets to vote for a Party. I live in the SE England Euro Constituency and have 10 MEPs but only get one vote on a Take it or Leave it "Hobson's Choice" basis, one vote gets you 10 MEPs but not the ones you may have wanted had you been able to use all 10 votes separately. In effect by the position the Party gives each name on its list it chooses your MEP not you. I deliberately put an X next to the 10 names I wanted not all from the same Party either, although that was counted as a "Spoilt Paper".

Basically the FPTP Constituency and PR Regional List system works but it was appallingly administered this time round from start - The Postal Vote shambles - to finish- the Counts, Rejected Votes and lost Ballot Papers etc.

54

Louisa,

Perth 06/05/2007 16:11:52

#57 Briar

Aristotle would be proud of you - his possible comments about Lapdougie Alexander's shocking incompetency would probably recommend a snifter of hemlock?

This 'democracy' gufff is as vaccuous as offering patients, parents etc "choice" i.e. take whatever you reckon is damage limitation and be grateful?

What an embarrassment - but I hope not too much money is spent on laying the blame at the foot of the patently obvious, but in making sure the next election is understandable in in it's execution by all levels within the natural Bell Curve IQ legitimate distribution?

55

Eve,

Scotland 06/05/2007 16:13:07

EDDIE BARNES AND MURDO MACLEOD

I really don't think the Voters in Scotland are as stuiped as you make them out to be.

Really most people know that Alex Samlond is the leader of the SNP and Tommy Sheraden is the Leader of the Soladarity, besides the rest on the lit was parties.

It's more probly as the channel 4 news pointed out on Friday that people where aware of the 2 votes on one papper and never so the tiny writting, indecating 1 vote in each collum.

As some one who is dyslexic I my self did not see the tiny writteng but could tell by the colour coded paper, that you voted once in each collum. Luckly I'm use to clour coding, others may not be.

People with poor eye sight, would have also not have seen the tiny writteng. We do have a high percentage of OAPs.

56

Eve,

Scotland 06/05/2007 16:18:47

#55. Rulesbutnotrulers: THERE WAS NO INDEPENCES ELECTION ON THE 3RD OF MAY, IT WAS A HOLYROOD ELECTION FOR A GOVERMENT WHICH CAN ONLY DO WHAT WESTMINSTER LETS IT DO. AND WITH THAT IN MIND WHAT WESTMINSTER GIVES WESTMINSTER CAN TAKE AWAY!!!!!

I don't trust Westminster.......

57

Rami,

New Hampshire 06/05/2007 16:32:05

#66 OKAY! GOT IT:-)

58

LesD,

Kirkcaldy, Fife 06/05/2007 16:33:53

I noticed when interviewed on the BBC, Alex Salmond said he would ask for an independant Judicial Enquiry if he became 1st minister, this was before the result was known.

Exactly where was Jack McConnel at this time? Not so much as a squeak. Wonder why?

The voting system chosen by the Scotland Office all Labour members, the machines chosen by the Labour run exec, from a company run by an ex Labour leader?

Does anyone else now wonder why Labour isn't offering the same enquiry?

It's a miracle the SNP won!!!

Cheers
Les

59

BK,

Cyberspace 06/05/2007 17:44:46

This huge screw up with the certainty of incompetence and the possibility of corruption should mean McConnell and his nincompoops should be disqualified for life from holding office - they have proved beyond all doubt that they are not fit for it. They were told and would not listen. This is criminal incompetence, not just ordinary stupidity, at which they excel anyway.

60

Sambo,

The deep south 06/05/2007 18:15:24

I believe that the majority of screw ups on Thursday were because of the older voters.
Sometimes old people can get confused.

61

Pictus,

Silver Bush 06/05/2007 19:08:12

#70, Sambo -Sure, Sambo, put us all out on an ice floe to perish. Better hurry, though, ice floes will soon be a memory.

62

Virgil,

Vancouver,BC 06/05/2007 19:27:36

I posed thia question on yesterday's post.

2 + 2 = ?
Answer that correctly and be eligible to vote in Scottish elections.
What is the literacy rate in Scotland?
Remind me!

The answer to the above mathematical equation is 4 , that is correct FOUR.

Age has nothing to do with this discrepency in clarity.
The whole Scottish culture is frayed by the obvious failure to maintain literacy in the grade school system and it is unfortunate that visitors from other English speaking countries register this in relating their experience of interacting with native Scots. The shop assistants in Glasgow seem incoherant when asked to confront a simple question.
I was priviledged to view two excellent Scottish entries to the Vancouver International Film Festival, last fall, but dismayed to note that they both required subtitles for understanding.
Scotland is not a banana republic, it is a country with rich heritage and proud tradition but it is slowly slipping into mire.
Not to exchange another topic, but Scotland's health gurus fail to recognise that bad teeth and disgustingly poor diet affects the brain's capacity.
Voting is only a small part in the process of change.
Taking an active part in the cultural and physical health of the nation everyday, and between symbolic elections, is to pave and maintain the road to community and progress.

63

Virgil,

Vancouver,BC 06/05/2007 19:30:04

My third wrd on the above post showed a typographical error.
Ther may be others. Like at the start of the previous phrase.

64

JuanKerr,

THE CROOK ARE OOT, HAIL THE NEW CROOKS! 06/05/2007 19:30:05

#68 It truly is a miracle. I am no way a supporter of the nats i just think that labour is no longer the party it was.

the party politicaly nepotistic manner it was held under must shurely put scotland on parr with zimbabwe.

On a local level we had local council staff distributing. leaflets about this being refurbished and we'll be sorting this in the next few weeks. All on contentious issues such as central heating, 50 year old bathrooms and kitchens only the day before election.Is this not proactive gerry mandering?

I hope an enquiry happens. I am ashamed the "sham of democracy" labour has helped create. With it's spin(lying) never resigning, and attempts to rob the voters of their voice.

YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED.

Epsecialy leaving the future of scotland to a creep like nichol steven and ming the meaningless.

If you deny us our voice Scotland will roar!

So the referendum. We are intelligent (apparently) enough to vote them into office. But not intelligent enough to decide our countries future in 4 years?

Add to this don't do this, do this legisaltion, middle class labour candidates patronsing us to the full.

We trully are a nation of numptees in labours eyes.LOL Who cannot decide for ourselves or need them to guide us!

GOD COMPLEX!

ohhhhh.....wait a minute the doors gone.........ohh i am being sectioned.........apparently i have also expoused views of contention..........ohh closed court here i come........yes i do hold the view labour were unfit to govern...........Oh is that wrong.

Apaprently so.........Only the insane don't vote labour. Just like if your not a witch you drown........if you are, you swim..... ahh thank you junta for leading me of my wrongful path........

65

canuckcraig,

Powell River, British Columbia,Canada 06/05/2007 19:34:23

I may seem old-fashioned to many of you, but as a poll clerk and pollstation manager, I found the old system of putting crosses against names and counting by hand much easier and more reliable than machines. To older people they're very confusing,and the result is many vote incorrectly and their votes are disallowed.
I don't really trust the machines, and I wonder if the price is worth it. I'd rather see a few more polling clerks, who from my experience have always done an excellent job.

66

JuanKerr,

THE CROOK ARE OOT, HAIL THE NEW CROOKS! 06/05/2007 19:41:14

And the wages from the 7 point odd million going to decent hardworking people. not labour entranched flunkies.

I would rather a few thousand people got a wage than some big fat cat get a fortune.

Thats the New labour way. Just like it was the tory way.

Labour-a-tory!

67

Gregorf,

06/05/2007 19:46:27

Taking a positive from a very humiliating negative, could this mean that Wendy Alexander gets dragged into the mire along with her brother? If ever a face represented dourness then surely hers' is it. No doubt she'll be busy accumulating statistics that defy the truth, unlike the horrible truth that this election was an absolute embarrasment. If they go ahead with this insanity, do we have enough people to begin suing those who are culpable for this? I am all for another election because even the dye in the wool Unionist parties must smell a rat here.

68

The Gorm,

Cda 06/05/2007 19:57:22

Sir Neil McIntosh, Scotland's electoral commissioner, said that the public was interested in politics but more needed to be done to improve voter turnout.

The commission is an independent body, set up by the UK Parliament, with a statutory duty to encourage participation in elections.

Poor election turnout

Fewer than half of the electorate cast their vote at the Holyrood and local government elections on 1 May, a significant drop on previous polls.
How in h*ll can a government be declared if less than 50% gave a dam*about the result.
Seems like you get what you deserve.

69

JuanKerr,

THE CROOK ARE OOT, HAIL THE NEW CROOKS! 06/05/2007 20:02:00

#23 i wouldnt count on it. The Alexander Sisters are a crooked political pair of clingons. they have backstabbed their way to the top, the bodies and pretty bad stories abound. Also they dropped the ball by being pashed to much on duty(Enterprise minister, Boradband mull and 300 folk for a coupla billion?).

I recommend the twelve steps for recovery.
Number 1 admit your powerless over career politicians 2 realise they know best 3 hand yourself over to a higher power as prescribed by new labour....

Sh*t floats as they say! and we all suffer with the smell. it hangs around for a long long time. They ruined the young socialists. At one point I thought their heads were going to fall of with all the leadership agreeing they did and ripping up of party roots and tradition. Now i here they have new prosphetic necks, with hing and tilt and made of titanium. They still have their old Brass ones though..........

70

Hadrian,

06/05/2007 20:11:51

More than just the postal vote forms arrived late.

I received a DVD from my union to encourage me to vote New labour on May 3.
It turned up on saturday,May 5, only 2 days late.
Hav'nt looked at it, will keep it for Halloween, or the Christmas party.
Yup, they can't get nuffin right.

71

The Gorm,

Cda 06/05/2007 20:12:28

#16 Rulesbutnorulers
Totally agree.How can anyone say the SNC (or anyone else) has a mandate in Scotland if less than 15% of eligible voters voted for independence.--Or union for that matter.

72

JuanKerr,

THE CROOK ARE OOT, HAIL THE NEW CROOKS! 06/05/2007 20:27:10

#33 i WOULD HAVE PUNCHED THE PATRONISING WEE TRAITOR IN THE MOOTH!

MR BROWN AS PROUD AS WEE WOULD BE TO HAVE A SCOTTISH PM. WE ARE NOT. YOU AND YOUR PARTY HAVE SOLD YOUR PRINCIPLES DOWN THE SAME RIVER WHERE YOUR SOULS RESIDE. As your father was a minister. Did you not attend the sermons about truth and openess?

73

saltire.1,

Moray 06/05/2007 20:31:00

We Won......:)

74

Falsyde,

HIGHLAND SEP 06/05/2007 20:59:39

As a candidate at the Inverness count I can assure everyone that the lack of consistency was utterly unacceptable. In fact were it not for candidates acting in an adjudicator capacity not bending over backwards to permit votes through the acceptance procedure the numbers would be even worse if played strictly according to the letter.

It would be no exaggeration to say that the real figure, if played strictly according to the rules would have been closer to 130 th to 15 th EASILY!!!!!

75

Electoral Shambles,

Aberdeen 06/05/2007 22:20:15

Whilst I have every sympathy for the votes rejected that were cast on the election day shambles that other shambles to with the postal vote seems to have taken a back street. Speaking as someone who was probably disenfranchsied by the time my postal vote appeared (just before the election) does anyone know how many postal votes were delivered versus how many were actually returned. In my case I am in Aberdeen Central another seat won by a very small majority in a city where many people work away from home.

76

jayceebee,

06/05/2007 22:25:33

There is no solution to this mess. Move on. Take care of the business of Scotland. Fix the problems with the vote process. Find a way to get more people to vote -- I can certainly see why people vote to not vote. One could actually take pride in having not voted in this fiasco of an election. Move on. It's not the end of the freakin' world.

77

Patrick Scott Hogg,

Caledonia 06/05/2007 22:30:24

JaunKerr #
Weel said on Labour cronyism! I recall sitting with a certain Jack McConnell when we were students in the same Labour Club and I asked Jack "Waht do you really stand for jack?" wondering what principles he had, if nay. His reply "I stand for ME! and me alone!" He hasnt changed a bit eh?

I left the labour party when they went pronuclear weapons. No socialist who understands economics could believe we could have high employment and benefit working people while paying for weapons of MASS ECONOMIC DESTRUCTION.

The SNP were always potrayed then as sectionalist, divisionist, anti-English and narrow minded selfish Scots! What piffle it all was. They simply realised Scotland gets the rough end of the London stick. In fact, as a historian and writer, Scotland has been used and abused effectively as a colony ran by an Anglizised oligarchy of mediocrity that not only drags Scotland down, holds SCotland back, but also talks Scotland down. The real 'dependency culture' is the dependency of the mediocre woodentop leaders whose ideas are bankrupt dross! How embarrassing it was to hear Jack mouthing the Blair slogan of a decade ago "Education Education Education" as his clarion call to win this election. No Vision. No Hope. Hollow words from a hollow man who was running on empty.

I am ashamed of the fact I helped that Unionist sell out to be elected as a Councillor (where there was plenty of cheating at the ballot box that day - vote early vote often was the slogan).

Scotland needs problems solvers; people of vision; of passion; of intellect and above all HONESTY and PRINCIPLE. The labour scams in East Lothian with that crook John Lindsay should be investigated and criminal charges brought. Power corrupt the weak who have no integrity. In politics we need people of integrity and strength with the humility to work hard for SCotland. The labout dam will burst one day and SCotland will take its place in history

78

Patrick Scott Hogg,

Caledonia 06/05/2007 22:36:05

A NATION AGAIN

EVERY RIVER MUST FIND ITS OWN WAY TO THE SEA
LIKE THE SOUL AND THE SPIRIT SEARCH TO BE FREE
THERE’S A VOICE IN THE GALE & A CANDLE BURNS BRIGHT
A PATH THROUGH THE DARKNESS, A LIGHT IN THE NIGHT
SEE A PEOPLE’S HISTORY REFLECT IN THEIR EYES
FROM THE ASHES & EMBERS THE PHOENIX SHALL RISE
THERE’S A PASSION INSIDE, LIKE A FIRE IT BURNS
THE LONGING & PAIN OF A COUNTRY THAT YEARNS

Chorus:
FREEDOM O FREEDOM COME RISE UP AND SEE
A NATION AGAIN, STANDING PROUD AND FREE
FREEDOM O FREEDOM COME RISE UP AND SEE
A NATION AGAIN, IS OUR DESTINY

WHEN YOU HEAR THE DRUM ROLL & PIPERS LOUD PLAY
IN PRINCES ST GARDENS ON A FINE SUMMER DAY
OR AT GLASGOW GREEN WHERE THEY MARCH SIDE BY SIDE
LET THE SKIRL O’ THE PIPES FILL YE WITH PRIDE!
IT’S OUR PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND PEOPLE LIKE ME
WE BUILT UP THIS COUNTRY, THE STRONG AND THE FREE
TO BE EQUAL ‘MONG NATIONS ACROSS THE WORLD
WITH OUR VOICES HEARD AND OUR FLAG UNFURLED

Chorus

THE GREAT GLENS AND MOUNTAINS OF OUR HOMELAND
BELONG TO THE PEOPLE, IT’S WHAT NATURE PLANNED
O WAKE UP FROM THE DREAM BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE
FREEDOM’S YOUR BIRTH RIGHT; FREEDOM’S YOUR FATE
FOR THE SAKE OF OUR CHILDREN, THEIR RIGHTS TO RECLAIM
FOR FREEDOM ALONE, NOT FOR GLORY OR FAME
DON’T CURSE THE DARKNESS HOLD UP YOUR LIGHT
LETS PULL TOGETHER - RIGHT IS OUR MIGHT

79

Patrick Scott Hogg,

Caledonia 06/05/2007 22:39:44

New words, new insights, new vocabulary, new hope, new vision and a new confidence - that is what Scotland needs: for her people to believe in themselves again.

Change the consciousness of the people by enlivening the culture and condidence of the nation and Scotland will grow and mature to take her rightful place as a free nation. BUT we need to have talented leaders; an honest parliament and honest civil servants from top to bottom - we need rid of the labour rot. Labour have lost their HUMANITY and their compassion; lost their soul.

80

Patrick Scott Hogg,

Caledonia 06/05/2007 22:43:57

Tony o’ Blair (Written before the Invasion of Iraq)

When peace protestors tak the street
And westerners Iraqi’s meet
While we sit gaukin at the telly
And lining beer in oor belly
We think upo’ the very poor
Their dingy dives o’ damp and stour
Whas blood Saddam has bled before
The Kurds he scattered from his shore –
The refugees who fled his reign
His terror, torture and its pain
Sae distant, far across the world
Their plight has many banners furled.

This truth fand honest Tony Blair
As he in Glesca did declare
Saddam’s great inhumanity
Cannot go on unchecked and free.

O Tony! were thee half sae wise
As taen thine ain guid folks advice
We warn’d thee weel ‘Not in Our Name’
Thou are nae Churchill fash’d on fame
Resolutions frae October
Demand action, fair and sober:
Gie inspectors time and siller
Evidence convicts a killer!
We prophesied that late or soon
Saddam’s regime will tumble doon.
Thou we know hae facts that damn him –
British weapons once did arm him!
The arsenal now that he has got
Is from the U.S. and our lot!
You know his weapons and deceits
You have copies of the receipts!

But wars are like wild virus’ spread
You start the battle, blood is shed
It’s always others who must die
When cruise missiles rain from the sky
The fox is snug within his lair
And will not lose a wisp o hair
The innocent will die in droves
Or starve in want o fish and loaves.
The target that you seek tae blast
Is in a bunker iron cast.
And so you see, we understand
You rule us too with slight of hand.

U.N. embargo’s kill the poor
Go count the bodies on a tour!
This we do to curb his power
But come the day and come the hour
The roar of shells and guns and tanks
Increase the profits in the banks
Of Arms companies and their greed<


 

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