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Nurses to take over from GPs on home visits

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Published Date:
02 September 2007
NURSES are set to replace doctors on many out-of-hours home visits under plans being considered by the Scottish government to address the chronic shortage of GPs available for night and weekend working.
Ministers believe nurses could be used instead of doctors for many cases when a home visit is judged necessary but the patient's condition is not causing particular alarm.

The move is being considered in the wake of a damning report into NHS out-of-hours care by Audit Scotland that showed a huge drop in the number of doctors working night shifts.

Last night, a Scottish government source admitted nurses had already begun attending home visits for minor complaints and that was expected to increase significantly in the next few years.

But the move was met with alarm by patients' groups, which described the development as "dangerous".

Traditionally, doctors have been on call to attend patients who take ill during the night, and this has continued despite huge changes to the NHS out-of-hours service.

Previously, a patient would ring his or her local surgery to request an emergency visit. But now NHS 24 staff will recommend a home visit in cases when it is difficult for a patient to attend a primary care emergency centre but the condition is not considered life-threatening enough for an ambulance.

Despite the expansion of out-of-hours call centres and clinics, there are still thousands of home visits across Scotland every year, usually to the elderly or the very young. The source said: "Some nurses are trained to a high level and can dispense prescriptions. They are already doing some degree of out-of-hours work, such as changing a dressing.

"They are qualified to a degree where they can make an assessment of the patient. And they can call on the advice of a doctor if they need it.

"If it was a complicated problem, the nurse would have the professional knowledge to make a judgment that the patient would require a doctor or hospital."

The source added: "The Health Minister has already said we do need to look at using other people with medical training to fill the gaps if we don't have GPs doing that work."

Ann Thomson, deputy director of the Royal College of Nursing in Scotland, welcomed the move.

She said: "This is something nurses could do. They already go out into the community during the day. A nurse could go out and assess the patient and decide what care is required.

"It is not a cheap option. It's about delivering a better service for patients and using healthcare professionals in a much smarter and better way."

But Dr Robbie Robertson, secretary of the Scotland Patients Association, said he had serious reservations. He said: "There will be times when nurses have to do things that only a doctor is trained to do in emergencies. I think the nurses would need to be highly experienced, because they are going to be on their own in someone's house and, unless they have had some sort of paramedic training, it could be a very dangerous situation.

"There is an element of risk, as there may be times when the problem is complex, such as abdominal pain, when they will really have to know what they are doing. Something like appendicitis can be missed quite easily. I can understand where the nurses are coming from in wanting to do this, but are they experienced enough? That is my concern."

Last week's Audit Scotland report warned of a crisis in the out-of-hours healthcare system because of the shortage of GPs working at night and at weekends.

Since a new contract in 2004 allowed GPs to opt out of providing cover at night and at the weekends, the number willing to do such shifts has dropped from almost 1,700 in 2004-5 to 1,440 in 2006-7.

The number of nurses providing care in out-of-hours clinics has increased to take up the slack in the system, and many specially qualified nurses can diagnose illnesses and prescribe medication.

Dr Dean Marshall, chairman of the BMA's Scottish GP committee, said: "Nurses are very good at what they do but they can't completely replace GPs. There is definitely a place for nurses working out-of-hours. But doctors do still want to work night shifts and I am worried that we will move completely away from this."

All in a night's work for health staff


IT'S just after midnight when the Bingham family arrive in the waiting room of Wallacetown Health Centre, Dundee, with their seven-month-old baby.

Anthony and Nicola are anxious about their son, who has been vomiting all evening and has been ill for two days.

They had already visited their GP that day and been told to keep an eye on baby Anthony, but things are getting worse.

Like many parents, they had phoned NHS 24 and been directed to their local out-of-hours clinic. They are seen almost immediately by Dr Tom Campion who, after a thorough examination and medical history, says he is happy to send the family home because Anthony is bright and alert and not showing signs of dehydration. But they are also given the clinic's direct line in case things get worse.

The same number is handed to Ade and Dupe Omotosho, whose 15-month-old son Damilola is in pain and discomfort but otherwise is found to have no alarming symptoms. Their time with medical staff in the early hours of Saturday morning is typical of that of many patients, usually the very young or the very old, whose symptoms become worrying when their own GP has closed his or her doors.

NHS Tayside's out-of-hours service at Wallacetown Health Centre provides an extensive service for patients all over the region and sometimes beyond.

The building hosts a 24-hour NHS call centre whose staff assess someone's condition. If a patient needs to be seen by a doctor, but is not a 999 emergency, the call is transferred to the clinic's 'hub', where nurses have maps and information at their disposal and send doctors out or invite patients in. Many arrive still wearing their slippers in their haste to be seen.

On the Friday to Saturday shift, to which Scotland on Sunday was given unprecedented access, staff dealt with dozens of patients, from sick babies such as Anthony to suicide threats. Calls are put through to staff specially trained to deal with a particular problem, and the centre has doctors, nurses and psychiatric experts.

With such antisocial hours and such challenging but usually non life-threatening situations faced every night, why do doctors and nurses do this work?

Dr Sebastian Miller, one of two doctors on duty on the Friday to Saturday overnight shift and a full-time out-of-hours GP, says he enjoys the fact that it is "old-fashioned medicine".

He adds: "It is more like basic medicine. General practice during the day is more about management of chronic diseases."

Miller has had three house calls in Dundee before midnight. "I had a man with hip pain and a lady with a urine infection who was becoming confused. I needed to talk to her family and tell them what to do. We also had a girl, aged six, with an asthma attack but she responded quickly to the nebuliser."

The manager in charge of the service is medical director GP Joyce Meikle.

She is proud of her staff and the help they provide, and while the patients seen on this shift were all in need of urgent attention, Meikle is concerned about a growing number who she believes use it because it is convenient.

She says: "The majority of patients use the service properly and have a genuine need to be seen out of hours. However, there is an increasing minority who come because it is convenient and for whatever reason can't see a GP at the time they want during the day."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 September 2007 8:17 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Health of the NHS
 
1

Boy Wonder,

01/09/2007 23:45:39

If practitioner nurses are trained well enough, why not? However, for patients with long term or chronic conditions, doctors should still be the visiting medical expert!

2

Guga II,

Rockall 02/09/2007 01:01:46

Many years ago, when China was still, essentially, a developing country, they trained what would be called para-medics to cover the shortage of doctors. They were known as barefoot doctors.

Now here are we, a developed country, slowly turning into a developing country, going to use nurses as barefoot doctors.

One step forward, two steps backward. I suppose this is what is called the "union dividend".

3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 01:20:06

My problem with this is, are the NURSES going to be paid the same as a Doctor, for house-calls/out-off-hours-work ??
Bet 'your-bottom-dollar' NO!!
Will they even get a 5th off the money a Doctor gets for theses duties?? NO!!
Responsibility and HELD to Question ?? YES!!!
Exploitation, Bullying, 'let-the-Doctor-off-the-hook' comes to mind, while they 'sip-the-wine' 'sleep-easy'
Nurses DO care and WILL carry out this duty, more than you can say for the Doctors, or they would have NO problem earning their wages, but unfortunately they DO!
Someone Dying at 'three-in-the-morning'.....DONT TELL ME! I AM A DOCTOR, 'AFTER-ALL'!!
TELL THE NURSE!!

4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 01:23:46

MAKES-YOU-SICK!!!

5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 01:28:35

#5 Benthehoose, Excuse Me! "always get a doctor to attend" GET-A-LIFE, wine and sleep is what they will be doing! NO chance "get-a-Doctor"
They want out of the responsibility of patient care!

6

Wisnaeme,

02/09/2007 01:38:36

It says in the article that it will be considered.

That is precisely what it will be.

Earning a meal out of a consideration again,"Hootmom"?

Aye,right so.Terrible this consideration of fearfullness,Eh.
.

7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 01:43:36

And before any Doctor comes on here and says anything, about the comments as being an attack. this is NOT the case! The Article and News item, portrays the way you want it.

8

Guga II,

Rockall 02/09/2007 02:49:50

I see the Hootsmon has suddenly removed all the comments from the article on police strikes. Why?

9

Guga II,

Rockall 02/09/2007 02:58:27

Oops, they're back.

10

Julie-Ann,

SW Scotland 02/09/2007 05:29:37

Nurses now adays are trained to a very high standard, and in hospitals already carry out work previously done by doctors.
The missing link is the salary to compliment that responsibility, many of our best nurses are leaving the NHS and Nursing, many going abroad, as they can't afford to live on the salary, which in no way reflects the resposibility they are expected to hold.

11

Paul Voltaire,

02/09/2007 06:44:42

Another example of how the NHS is crumbling.

12

Anne,

02/09/2007 06:49:01

Nurses are not trained in differential diagnosis.
Who is going to decide that a particular home visit is simple enough for a nurse to attend?
And who is indemnifying them?
Will they be paying a defence organisation the £5-6000 per annum that a GP pays?
If they are not, then they are simply stop-gaps.

13

rob the ranter,

02/09/2007 08:38:21

Totally agree with #12 - if nurses are so highly trained then why is their salary nowhere near the average £120,000 a GP gets? I feel GPs are so cushy now with their big fat salaries that they don't need the unsocial hours which simply get in the way of their bloated lifestyles. I along with many others are fast becoming sick of their way (GPs) of doing things, having to wait hellish long times to get an appointment and even then getting very doubtable advice or diagnoses. It's about time we halved GP salaries and made them hungry enough to sharpen up their acts!

14

Claire22,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 08:48:22

Absolutely not!

Although nurses are highly trained and some are dedicated, they are not doctors.

If I am seriously ill, warranting a call out, I want a doctor not a nurse.

If this happens, then I and many others, will simply call 999 or go to A&E.

15

Dr Katharine Morrison,

Ayrshire 02/09/2007 09:15:37

In other countries eg Canada and USA home visits are simply not done. The patient goes to the health care facility. Improving transport to these facilities would be of more help. The people still needing to be seen at home should be the genuinely housebound, the dying or the dead.

Housevisits are a risk to the patient and to the health professional making the visit. Notes are incomplete, there is often a lot of ambient noise from the television, there is a lack of privacy, lighting is often poor and examination facilities are poor. Patients are allowed to smoke in their own homes and often continue to do so.

Any home assessment is going to be much poorer than that undertaken in a good environment. There are no back up investigation facilities.

Nurses definitely have their place in the out of hours service but it is the expectation for home visiting both in and out of hours that is the problem that needs solved.

16

Tam O' Shanter,

02/09/2007 09:54:47

#18
Imagine blaming the telly for a rubbish diagnosis.
Quack , quack etc...

17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 10:32:26

#18 Dr Katharine Morrison, while I respect what you say, unless you are unemployed or old/not working, there is ZERO FACILITIES to see your GP, open at 9am close at 5pm that's your lot! if we got a problem and work, it is not easy 'just-to-see-you-Doc, as NO weekend or evening facilities these days are given,.
Why cant Doctors do 'shift-work' like some services?

18

Eleana,

Midlothian 02/09/2007 10:41:00

Many of these nurses (but not all) are paid as Band 6 under Agenda for Change. On a senior level of Band 6 the pay has just risen to £15.48 per hour. Some of these nurses will be lower down or Band 5, which is less. There is a small enhancement for working unsocial hours but that was reduced under Agenda for Change. As stated before, there is an increased risk of being sued as you take on more responsible duties.

19

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 02/09/2007 11:06:03

well that along with all emergency eye care being referred to opticians will mean that soon there will be no need for Drs is this just a way of saving money so Wee Eck can meet his promises

20

Miss Pixie,

Westminster, Md USA 02/09/2007 11:07:41

You Brits are VERY SPOILED when it comes to house calls! Americans haven't seen a doctor make a house call in 40 years!

When we lived in the Borders we were amazed and delighted that our doctors would actually see us at home in an small emergency, even dropping off meds!

21

dr roger,

sussex 02/09/2007 11:31:13

Dr Morrison is absolutely correct and unlike the majority of people commenting on this story is clearly an experienced medical or nursing professional. Her statement is factual and accurate. The reality is that the vast majority of unscheduled medical care is best conducted in a healthcare facility whether that be an out of hours centre or emergency department.
This is far better for the patient and for the doctor. On the basis of greater good to the majority, the doctor can see more patients and thus meet the supply / demand curve better.
The assessment will be more accurate due to the better environment, there is greater provision for tests eg ECGs, assistance is more easily obtained and second opinions are available.
A fact which has not been mentioned, but is important none the less is that it is safer for medical and nursing staff, because the sad reality is there is a small minority of patients or relatives who are aggressive, threatening or violent against healthcare staff and in my experience of both community and hospital practice this is a bigger problem in unscheduled care.
Clearly a small minority such as the terminally ill or housebound are potentially best cared for at home - this already happens with community nurse matrons, GPs, some geriatricians, MacMillan nurses, and District Nurses all working as part of the team.
The reality is that unscheduled care is a challenging field with the potential for adverse events and it is in everyones interest to ensure that the assessment and management of these events are optimised.
As for doctors being lazy and overpaid I think the vast majority of ALL healthcare professionals work incredibly hard and doctors are no exception. They have to make potentially difficult decisions which require years of training and in the case of GPs their salaries are performance related thanks to the new GP contract. If they achieve their targets in eg health screening, chronic disease ma

22

wee-me,

02/09/2007 12:18:50

General practitioners are just that, they are there to serve the general medical complaints of patients. I can understand the frustration, that it can cause to make home visits to people who clearly don't need them.
I don't believe however that doctors are overworked for the salary they command, in years gone by your GP would be in practise on their own or with possibly one other covering an area 24 hours a day 7 days a week. They were indeed then overworked.
The other problem is of course is the vast majority of people who require to see a doctor out of hours, are in no fit state to press different buttons to get through to who they want, to then be asked a long line of questions, to then be transferred to a nurse to ask even more questions, who then decides whether or not you need to be seen. This is especially true for old people who are confused to start with. The current system is not working for several reasons. To employ nurses to do home visits in what is basically an emergency situation, I feel will end in more deaths, this is not a reflection on nurses, it's a simple fact the have not had the training to accurately diagnose conditions, they do not do it in hospitals, they should not be left with the responsibility to do it in peoples homes

23

Brenda,

Fife 02/09/2007 13:14:51

A nurse intead of a doctor calling out in an emergency I would hope not, no disrespect to nurses but, they do not have the qualifications, nor the training a doctor has.
The safety and cost aspect hasn't been thought out either.
A single female/male nurse alone at night carrying medication, come on, she/he would have to be chaperoned in this day and age, and the added cost ? who would bear the brunt of that.

There are plenty doctors being paid enough they whittled enough of the service down by introducing NHS ( No Health Service) 24 .

In an emergency I would like to be seen by someone qualified enough to deal with it, after all it is lives we are talking here.

And we do actually pay for it.

The system as it it could do with drastic improvement its a nightmare to actually get a doctor out of hours.
Firstly you call NHS ( No Health Service) 24 and speak to a call handler who passes your info forward to a nurse then the nurse calls you back to confirm what you have already told the call handler, then the nurse talks to the doctor, the doctor calls you back, then decides to visit and it could be a wait of anything up to four hours. In an emergency this is not acceptable !

The old system worked for the PATIENTS where you called your own surgery, and your own doctor called, they knew your history, they also knew who the mallingerers were so were able to deal with that also.

24

lachlan,

02/09/2007 14:08:16

G.P.s holding the country to ransom.they know they can'nt be done without.if it was a group of miners in the 80s or train drivers today there would be a cry of 'get the troops in'

25

Louisa,

Off centre 02/09/2007 14:30:08

As a nurse teacher for 20 years and senior Charge Nurse before - I want a fully qualified doctor to assess and treat me if I call from home in such emergencies that I cannot make it to the medical practice or so ill that I require a 999 call.
What needs to be sorted out is the misuse of requests for home visits rather than legitimising time-wasters with nursing visits as illustrated by the assertion that many do not require the skills of a doctor in the first place. Those requiring home nursing are already dealt with via the community nursing services.
As for those who claim that nurses are highly qualified - remember they are highly qualified in nursing NOT medicine. They cannot be a replacement for medical experience nor can they be a substitute.
The government (previous) has got us into this dreadful mess of miscalculating the work done by GPs and imposing the third-rate service of NHS 24 - how many deaths and court cases so far? Senior nurses (RCN) , who would be hard pushed to function at today's bedside, are being worryingly naive or ignorant when they grovel to politicians to curry favour by imagining nurses would be as effective as doctors. The legal consequences are eye-watering - and I strongly advise doctors, who will still be held accountable for any harm, to force the Scottish Government and their own professional bodies to renegotiate proper 24 medical patient cover and remuneration. Nurses? - get on with nursing - you haven't got time, never mind the medical knowledge or proven experience, to spread yourselves even more thinly to cover up yet another government mistake.

26

Old Bird,

USA 02/09/2007 14:39:56

GOOD MOVE-USE YOUR RESOURCES-NURSES ARE VALUABLE AND MUCH NEEDED-----------

27

nhsdoc,

Scotland 02/09/2007 14:44:15

#4
a) it is not the GPs who wish to replace the service with nurses, but the health board - to save money. Fair enough GPs are more expensive, but £50 an hour is not unreasonable for a professional - how much would you pay a plumber to come out at night? Out of hours GPs now are working the whole time they are on a shift in the centre, they are not covering from home. The health boards are trying to provide the same service from the £6000 per GP that was given up at the time of the new contract. No-one ever said this would be enough, but the fact was that GPs were providing the service for FREE until then.
b) GP surgery hours are 0800 to 1830 Monday to Friday - not 9 til 5 - I agree it can be difficult to see someone if you work all week, especially if you commute - but that isn;t the GPs fault as they would have to open all day anyway for the unemployed/elderly etc. - and given every other industry (including MSPs) are looking for family friendly hours, why shouldn't this apply to GP staff. Why not force employers to give staff reasonable paid time off to see a GP? Nobody whinges when big business makes record profits year on year.
c) GPs don't earn £120000 a year - English GPs were quoted this year as having average profits of £100000, the figure was £80000 in Scotland - this is before 14% is taken off for employers NHS contributions - these used to be taken off at source, but are now claimed on our personal returns, artificially inflating our profits and making it look like we've had a huge rise. Clever spin for the media by our government.

#26 - you need to get our of the past and leave your Dr Finlay world. Everybody would love to see their own GP 24/7 but it's not sustainable for recruitment. Patients are now much more demanding and expect to be seen 24/7 for any problem rather than wait overnight or for their own social convenience.
In a lot of countries, home visits are just not done - you get yourself to the doctor or go by amb

28

J M Milligan,

Scot/USA 02/09/2007 14:45:30

Let's see in my day an S.R.N. trained for three years and an S.E.N. trained for two however, a doctors training was five years plus depending on what they hoped to achieve.

I take it that is not the case today, or do we have a glut of nurses trained to a medical M.D's standard?

Will the nurses know the difference between appendicitis and constipation, how about a fallopian tube pregnancy and the two illnesses mentioned?

What about the early stages of Meningitis, will she be able to tell that from a Migraine.

Playing with people's life's is not a step forward. It is dangerous waters to tread and the ramifications could be damning and if it is.....who will pay the piper

29

BennyBoy,

Scotland 02/09/2007 15:02:23

I spent 20 years working for the NHS as a RGN finishing my career as a Midwifery Sister and the state of the workings within the system was dire due to pressure from the politicians.
More and more responsibility was taken from the doctors and put onto the nurses/midwives to free up the doctor's workload but it was with the minimum training for the nurses/midwives to do the job to get by.
It was proposed before I left the service that midwives would perform invasive procedures such as Ventouse extractions at delivery and more worryingly Caesarean sections. By the time a doctor reaches their stint in obstetrics they have been in training at least 5 years.
What was being proposed was absurd and all to make midwives 'doctors' by the back door with all the responsibility a doctor shoulders but with no financial reward.
If this practice ever became a reality this would be a money saving exercise and a political budget win but at what cost?

30

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 15:11:08

#30. nhsdoc, fair comment, its a shame something like working shifts cant be carried out by Doctors, say the 999 services only worked 0800-1830 and you and your family were in a car crash, with this attitude (not-yours) there wouldn't be much help for you.
Whats wrong with open Saturday mornings, many a niggle in health CAN turn out serious, the niggle MAY not be enough to take time off work, but to be seen to on a Saturday or before 8pm through the week.
#31. ketunka, yes agree MENINGITIS wont take long to kill if not seen to, but what can you do? educate at school? or hope on dialing 999 may get some help? or NHS Direct? Ive been there with a loved one and can tell you, Its a H*LL of a scare time! and NO-ONE for help or advice!

31

Dr Wood,

Cambridge 02/09/2007 15:42:18

"nhsdoc, fair comment, its a shame something like working shifts cant be carried out by Doctors, say the 999 services only worked 0800-1830 and you and your family were in a car crash, with this attitude (not-yours) there wouldn't be much help for you."

??? Err.... who do you think looks after you if you are injured in a car crash? Don't you think DOCTORS might be involved at some point? Do you think you have to wait till 8am to see a doctor with your open femoral fracture?

Funny, I'm a doctor, and I thought I worked shifts..... if not, why am I at work on a Sunday afternoon?

32

J M Milligan,

Scot/USA 02/09/2007 15:48:18

Educating, schools Charles wouldn't help much with Bacterial Meningitis, as that can be caused by a strep throat or ear infection.

I find it ludicrous, the Government would place the burden of life or death on a nurses shoulders. Imagine the outcry if a patient died of a misdiagnosed illness by a nurse?

There, would be serious redress against the Government's decision and its right to place such responsibilities on shoulders that are not built to support them.

33

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 15:51:46

#34 Dr Wood, I was referring to Family GP's NOT hospital doctors and the linked 999 services!.

34

Dr Wood,

Cambridge 02/09/2007 16:20:13

Charles,

I know you were!

My point was that there ARE doctors providing emergency services - but that different doctors do different things. Highly skilled though GPs are, they are not necessarily who you need to see in a traffic accident.

But they DO work out of hours for primary care type problems - I don't know about in your area, but in my area the out of hours GP service is right next to A and E and is staffed 24 hours by fully qualified GPs.

35

joan giles,

kingston ontario canada 02/09/2007 16:23:10

as a retired RN I think that brits should as we do after hours clinic with Doctors then have nurses do the night shift Hey it is often the Nurse while lookingafter hospital patients diagnose what,s wrong and then tell the docter Nurses are truly smart

36

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 16:36:33

37. Dr Wood, Capital of Scotland! and apart from the Emergency Services, which are 'second-to-none'
'YOUR-HAVING-A-LAUGH', EDINBURGH, and you cant even get a Dentist!

37

AlastairEwen,

Canada 02/09/2007 17:32:24

Nurses ain't doctors. No disrespect but they are NOT trained in diagnosis. They are trained in nursing. Shame on the Department of Health for its incessant smear campaign against GP's and shame on them for persuading the public that nurses are the answer to out of hours care.

Your are being taken for a ride. The government wants to encourage doctor bashing to deflect criticism from its hopelessly incompetent renegotiation of physicians' contracts.

Sadly, the heated debate is mostly about a feature fo emergency care that does not exist in most countries - home visits. They are usually inadequate and occasionally dangerous.

If you are really sick at night then you need to get your arse into a properly equipped A and E or medical clinic. In those places you have a chance of receiving appropriate triage and approriate care. In many cases, however, the most appropriate triage is to tell you to get your arse back home and take an aspirin or two.

Losers!!

38

Shuggie,

BC, Canada 02/09/2007 17:49:49

I see no reason why a nurse with appropriate training should not diagnose, treat and be paid as much as a GP. It is the training and competence, not what they are called, that counts.
Here the government pays a nurse-midwife considerably more than a GP for delivering a baby, and I have not heard complaints from patients.

39

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 02/09/2007 18:18:45

Serious details need attention to even consider implementing a plan like this - like WHICH nurses would be sent to attend WHICH cases.

Also safety is a real issue for a woman traveling solo at night, possibly with RX medicines in her car or on her person.......Too, this would be another one of those employment shifts which allow flexibility and freedom to the nurses involved. Nurses should be tested for PERSONAL DRUG USE.

Read the literature. Some of the highest statistics for DRUG ABUSE come from individuals in the MEDICAL PROFESSION, because so many drugs are so easily accessible to them!

40

AlGlas,

Livingston 02/09/2007 19:30:46

In response to the comments from Guga II,

Nurses would not be used as a “substitute” for doctors. The reality is that doctors are not able to “nurse”. Nurses during there training cover “the signs and symptoms of most illnesses” and will recognise these symptoms in the patients they look after. They will also treat these symptoms. They may, along with a variety of nursing procedures, use medication (prescribed by a doctor) to treat the patient. Doctors, themselves, seldom actually “treat” patients, especially in hospitals.
Is “that which gets the patient better” (whatever that might be) what we are referring to when we talk about “treatment”? If so then when you take away the input that goes into this process, from Pharmacists, Radiologist, Laboratory staff, Physiotherapists, Occupational Therapists (most of whom probably work nine-till-five) and nurses who cover 24hours, what percentage is left i.e. the doctors input. Treatment begins usually with the G.P. and is reviewed on admission to hospital and maybe adjusted, possibly more than once, then continued throughout the patient’s stay. Following discharge the District Nurse may then monitor the patient’s condition in the community until the patient is fully well and ready to be passed back to their G.P.
There are many instances where nurses have been called upon to deal with situations when a doctor has not been available, indeed when the medical profession decides to “give up” responsibility for a particular area of clinical work, very often it is the nurse who accepts the responsibility for dealing with that area of expertise. This is not new, it has always been like this.
It may also be worth noting that doctors do not, at any time in their training receive lectures, or indeed input of any kind, on the “art” of nursing. They do not nurse. No hospital has ever been closed because of lack of doctors.

41

Tayside,

Tayside 02/09/2007 19:45:43

I suspect that part of the thinking may be that many of the people calling for out of hours visits are not as ill as they think.
Some, given the option of a home visit by a nuse or attending the out of hours centre to see the doctor will suddenly find they are well enough to travel to the centre after all to see a doctor.
If they are really ill most will be sent direct to hospital by NHS24.
The cases that are hard to sort out on the phone can be seen by a nurse who should be able to differentiate between the trully ill and the worried but not ill.
Those calling for doctors to work shifts just don't get it that the doctors are working during the day and if they give some of that up to work evenings/weekends they will be less avaliable during the day.
All those people who say they work shifts should have no problem as they can go during the day when they are off.

42

Dr Rant,

Dr Rant blog (www.drrant.net) 02/09/2007 19:52:10

The problem is not that doctors are not willing to work out of hours shifts, but that the Health Boards are not willing to pay the market rate.

GPs have seen a relative 20% pay drop in the last 3 years (a 10% overall drop since before the new contract in 2004). Stories about huge pay rises cover only a single year (2004) and are heavily exaggerated as are the reports of GPs earning huge amounts of money.

GPs are seeing more patients than 15 years ago, spend an average of 40% longer with each patients than 15 years ago, and are working longer routine hours than 15 years ago. The only plus side for GPs has been the ability to hand the essentially unpaid 24/7 commitment to Health Boards.

The government did not give GPs the option of simply carrying on doing Out of Hours as before - new rules were brought in which meant small co-operatives of GPs would have had to invest in new telephone systems just to be allowed to carry on as before.

The government thought arrogantly that they could do a better job of providing Out of Hours care than GPs for less money. They were wrong.

GPs are highly trained professionals who are worth a lot of money out of hours. The Health Boards do not want to pay them this money, and more and more GPs are either being denied shifts to save money or are stopping doing shifts because of low pay.

Also, patients bear a responsibility. Many patients have abused the Out of Hours on call service for years in a way that their grandparents would never have done, and this as much as anything else has driven GPs away.

Nurses are not trained in diagnosis. They are not, in the end, cheaper than doctors - they see patients more slowly, they need more training, they have a higher turnover, they take more sick-leave, and they need to refer more patients to hospital.

This proposal is both unsafe and costly. It should be resisted.

If people want to see GPs out of hours then they should ask Health Boa

43

Dr Rant,

Dr Rant blog (www.drrant.net) 02/09/2007 20:03:15

"I see no reason why a nurse with appropriate training should not diagnose, treat and be paid as much as a GP. It is the training and competence, not what they are called, that counts."

The problem is that to have the appropriate training the nurse would have to have gone to medical school, done junior medical doctor training, trained as a GP, and sat his or her GP exams.

It's called 'GP training'. There are all kinds of laws about practicing medicine that are there for a reason.

As for nursing bodies that think nurses can emulate GPs in an uncontrolled patient environment, I can only say that they don't know that they don't know.

44

timbrusky,

Texas, U.S.A. 02/09/2007 20:28:25

Compensate these highly trained nurses exactly as the attending doctor if he or she were available, and you will certainly see a new attitude among the doctors who have shirked their patient duties. Here in Texas, probably 90% of all cases can be handled very well in the skilled hands of a trained Emergency Nurse. In America we have a hand me up method of care... starting with Emergency Care Attendant then progressing to Emergency Medical Technician (EMT), then ParaMedic, then Nurse Practicioner. Within the confins of all four defaults, better than 90% of every Emergency is handled expediately and successfully. Win Win for everyone. Every small community should strive to get at least a Nurse Practicioner nearby. God bless you all. TIM

45

MichScot,

USA 02/09/2007 20:50:11

Housecalls?
How very lucky you are! We often do not have even our doctor's address anymore. My old doctor let us call day or night for consultation, but the new one "lives somewhere in the area"!
We are fortunate indeed to have a small community hospital nearby for after-hours needs, but if it closes, it will be a forty-mile trip to the hospital. Unless it is a dire emergency. In that case, it is a forty-mile trip in an ambulance, for which expense we are charged.

46

Brenda,

Fife 02/09/2007 20:57:16

#30
NHS doctor, You are being paid £50 per hour and have the hard neck to complain about being overworked, you are paid enough start earning it.

And just so you are fully informed Dr Finlays casebook was indeed set in Fife, filmed I believe in Auchtermuchty, but that was before my time, you might be able to remember it more clearly than I.

It isnt that many years since NHS 24 was introduced and before that our own GPs offered an out of hours service for emergencies.

Genuine emergencies mind not some sniffler with a head cold.

My elderly father suffered three heart attacks in one day and was sent home after the first one two hours later from hospital at 2 am on a winters morning in his PJs by a triage nurse who mis diagnosed him thinking because he had no pain his sweating and breathlessness were caused by a chest infection coming on. Diabetics can have silent heart attacks as you will know.
Luckily a local taxi firm brought him home safely. The hospital didnt care what happened to him. he returned the following night with the same scenario and I insisted they kept him till they sorted him out good job too as he had a further two silent heart attacks whilst there and was treated properly, not by a nurse a DOCTOR

47

MichScot,

USA 02/09/2007 21:09:07

Here in the US, the hospitals have on-duty doctors 24 hours. The nurses triage and generally make the decision that your situation is life-threatening or not. If not, you wait if others more seriously in need come in after you. You can be there an hour or less, or you can be there all night, depending on the auto accidents and so on. We also have helicopters for those who need transport to a more well-equipped facility if it is needed. They are shared by hospital groups.

My exchange student went in about 9:30 PM with what appeared to be appendicitis, but the hospital had him in a CAT scan before 11 to be sure,and fortunately, it was nothing that serious. If it had been, he would have been under the knife by midnight.

My mom went in and they did an exploratory within two hours, only to find that she was weeks from death with cancer.

My dad went in for heart problems and was immediately stabilized and in intensive care for a few days, including surgery.

A friend thought she was having a heart attack, but it was something else. She was immediately cared for, and then the care was put on the back burner when it was discovered that she was in no immediate danger, but others were in dire need who needed help.

It may be inconvenient to wait if you are not in dire circumstances, but at least we know that we will get priority if it is needed.

And who decides? The NURSES!

48

AlGlas,

Livingston 02/09/2007 21:32:29

Good old Dr Rant! Living up to the true image of the old style GP with just a touch more arrogance thrown in. I for one am pleased that at least one doctor in the country is at last willing to reveal his true self in public. This sort of attitude is usually well shrouded in the doctor's "bedside manner", something that is clearly learned (not natural) in doctors. You make sure you hold out for "the market rate" Dr Rant. You dish out statistics probably the way you dish out your medical/health advice; "I'm the one with all the knowledge and all the training and all the experience, so make sure you come back and see me then I'll have all the power I need too- 'cause it makes ME feel real good and awfully important". As a "highly trained professional" who is "worth a lot of money"do you think you should be paid as much as, or more than the other people who work, in our community, at keeping us alive? police, firemen, ambulancemen, sewage workers, refuse collectors, street sweepers? You clearly think you deserve more than nurses. I have noted how when your backs to the wall you follow the lead of some of your other colleagues and blame the patient. "If you'd done what I said you'd be alright now. no, no that's not what I said, you misunderstood, you could'nt have been listening, it's your own fault, you'll have to leave this practice - you're making me look bad".
Did you say nurses are not trained in diagnosis. According to the dictionary DIAGNOSIS: (is the) "IDENTIFICATION OF A DISEASE OR CONDITION AFTER OBSERVING ITS SIGNS". Nurses do this every day in their working life and then make the doctor look good when he/she gets him to "confirm" the diagnosis".This is what I mean about arrogance. My granny used to diagnose, measles and mumps. and whooping cough and impetigo and loads of other conditions just before the GP arrived to confirm her diagnoses.I think I should end with a

49

kenny mac dk,

denmark 02/09/2007 22:39:54

I haven't read all of the 51 comments before mine, but many of them are merely a moan about NHS provision in Scotland. While there are obviously problems with it, the basic question here is are nurses competent to do many of the tasks that doctors feel thet they are qualified to do. Nurses in Denmark are anaethetists!

50

nhsdoc,

Scotland, UK 02/09/2007 23:24:01

#49 - I don'tm remember saying anything about being overworked, just that I didn't think £50 per hour was excessive for out of hour work - which personally I don't do so I can spend time with my young children and so my (nurse) wife can work a few hours to keep her registration current - both of us working is not possible due to the unpredicatable nature of my hours and the fact that childcare suitable for NHS clinical staff hours is non-existent.
I still put in a 60+ hour week, as even after the patient's go I am often in the surgery 3 evenings a week until 7-30 doing paperwork that there is no time to do during the day, and that's before going to any evening/weekend education meetings to keep up to date (in our own free unpaid time).
Regardless of one person's comment about GPs spending "less time on the golf course and more time seeing patients", you will find that most GPs don't have time to stop for a proper lunch let alone play golf nowadays!!
I've worked the old on-call system and the whole problem is that patients don't want to keep it for genuine emergencies - they expect a doctor for toothache (which is a dental problem anyway!), running out of calpol, coughs and sore ears overnight, none of which are emergencies.
I sympathise with your problems with your father, but unfortunately having a GP out of hours wouldn't help. Any patients sent in by us would still be seen by the same triage nurse or a very junior doctor who feels that they know the patient better and will discharge them without discussing it with us again anyway!

51

nhsdoc,

Scotland, UK 02/09/2007 23:33:46

Also, driving past our local golf course mid-morning last week while doing home visits, the car park was full of BMWs/fleet cars - either all wealthy retired (unlikely) or so call businessmen/private sector workers 'networking' (i.e. skiving) while playing a round of golf. These are the people that then claim to work long evening/weekend hours and so need to be paid shedloads of cash - maybe if they worked all week during the day it wouldn't be necessary.
You may say that business keeps the economy going and people in jobs to fund the NHS, but half of the large companies and their senior executives pay little or or tax, leaving you and I to foot the bill.

52

Pete H,

the health service 02/09/2007 23:36:45

Just to echo some of AlGlas' comments.The comments coming from some of the Dr's on here reeks of arrogance. Healthcare is a team sport not an individual persuit. If Dr's were doing the out of hours work then Nurses would not necessarily have to do this work. As this need isn't being filled then someone has to do it. As for the lack of training or the outcry from missed diagnoses, well I've seen plenty of mistakes and treatments made by Gp's (Gaviscon for an AMI anyone) and sometimes during an emergency the last person you need to treat you is a doctor. The level of training for nurse practitioners is high and comprehensive and as most of them do not think they are 'god' then they will seek help or further investigation when it is needed.To sum up, Doctors if you are so upset by this, then do the work. Otherwise well trained and motivated nurse practitioners will, simple. By the way I'm not a nurse.

53

Navvy,

03/09/2007 02:15:19

#49 Brenda Dr.Finlay was filmed in Callender not in Fife

Anyone who watched Dr. Finlay will know that expectations were lower in the good old days.

Anyone who looks after his diet, who takes some exercise and not burdened with some congenital problem and can expect to live to a ripe old age.

What must be understood that, especially with continuing advances in medical knowledge, is that there will never be enough money for the NHS to fulfil all these wish lists.

What we can do to help is to stop treating the NHS as a shoulder to cry on, live health lifestyles, don't call NHS24 for trivial matters and thank our lucky start that in Scotland we have a better service than most countries. In many ways a better service than we deserve.

What the NHS can do is to become better run. Our services compare unfavourably with those in Singapore.

Any NHS staff making a house call should just turn round and walk out if all TVs are not turned off and cigarettes extinguished within a couple of minutes of arrival. It is unconscionable that NHS staff should be harassed. Such household should be blacklisted but, probably the NHS will continue to service such dross.

That said, other professions train as long and work as unsociable hours as doctors and for less money. Civil Engineers for example and while a doctor might inadvertently kill one person a civil engineer can kill tens at a time. So who has the greater responsibility?

54

enmuffins,

Carlsbad california 03/09/2007 02:37:09

The article states:
"Some nurses are trained to a high level and can dispense prescriptions. They are already doing some degree of out-of-hours work, such as changing a dressing."

Dressings are mostly changed by nurses in the US. Their training is a four year Bachelor degree. There are nursing aides with less training who generally take temps etc in a hospital setting.
This is not a nanny state and if you have a sudden illness you're more than likely to call a cab - if no family member is at hand - or else call 911 and an ambulance will pick you up and take you to the hospital.
Sure you'll be charged an amount - in my case about one fifth of what the ambulance service charges with my Medicare paying the other 4/5th's.

You can bet that with no doctors on hand evenings and weekends patients think twice before calling for help. We have "Urgent Care" centers scattered throughout cities and small towns where Xrays and emergency care can be had.
For people who have no health insurance or are not the elderly on Medicare the emergency room is the place these people head for. The expense of taking care of patients with minor illnesses in a hospital setting is bankrupting many hospitals. A few of them have closed down in San Diego alone. The biggest problem we have in Southern California is the illegals coming over the border from Mexico to have their babies delivered in US hospitals. The babies are US citizens at birth. Hospitals in the US CANNOT refuse patients, whether they can pay, are insured, or not. The problems here are for the people who are NOT desperately poor or illegal but are stuck with hospital costs that are inflated to pay for the freebies. The one area where I think the US could learn from the UK in health-care is to cut back on the number of frills related to health-care. I remember visiting a hospital in Blackpool where there were 20 or 30 patients in a ward. No one would tolerate that here

55

BennyBoy,

Scotland 03/09/2007 08:29:09

No. 46 - if you were to train nurses to the standard of doctors and pay them as doctors wouldn't that make them........doctors! just a thought.

56

Brenda,

Fife 03/09/2007 09:44:02

#56
Check again you will find the new series filmed a few years ago was filmed in Auchtermuchty, Fife.

STV tried a re run of the popular series and it was filmed in Auchtermuchty, the original possibly was filmed in Callander.

57

Navvy,

03/09/2007 11:09:36

#60 Ah, Brenda wean, I only deal with originals not lookalikes or rebrands

58

HV,

03/09/2007 11:43:24

Who says nurses want to do out-of-hours calls?
This one certainly doesn't.

59

nhsdoc,

Scotland 03/09/2007 17:21:35

#59
Why would you be phoning NHS24 expecting a doctor to sort your dental abscess - it is a DENTAL problem which should be dealt with via a dentist and you should have been redirected to the dental emergency number. If your face wasn't swollen or you didn;t have a temperature, you could wait until the morning to see a dentist and paracetamol/ibuprofen are available 24/7 from Tesco etc.
Had the toothache just come on or had you been sitting with it all day and not done anything about it sooner

60

what one,

here 03/09/2007 19:00:44

#64.. in most area's on scotland now NHS dental practices recorded message directs caller to NHS24. The service does not only deal with physical medical problems. but dental problems in some area's callers can be referred to the emergency dental service in their area, in otheres they are given the contact number for emergency dental contact that is of course having weeded out what is an emergency. Unfortunately calling at 04.00 with toothache for 3 weeks and taking no pain killers will not result in an EMERGENCY referal.

The sad fact is not enough people have access to routine dental services resulting in multiple problems for service users and service providers.


 

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