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Treasury delivers £400m blow to SNP tax plans

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Published Date: 28 January 2007
THE UK government will hold back more than £400m of benefits currently coming to Scotland if a future SNP government presses ahead with the reform of the council tax, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
In what triggered a bitter constitutional row last night, Whitehall officials said Scotland would lose out on the UK cash if the Nationalists insisted on creating a new local income tax - a key plank of Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon's election str
ategy.

Instead, Labour said the funds would have to be found from their own £30bn budget, which is used to pay for Scotland's schools, hospitals and public services.

The funds in question currently flow to Scotland as council tax benefit - the rebate offered by the Department for Work and Pensions to help poorer householders with their bills.

By scrapping the council tax, this benefit would also be cancelled. The Nationalists are banking on an equivalent sum being transferred to Scotland to help offset the cost of their new tax.

However, Whitehall sources have now declared that the funds would be kept in Whitehall, leaving the SNP with a huge black hole in its finances.

A well-placed insider at the Department for Work and Pensions said: "We think the idea is risible. Council tax benefit is a national benefit and there is no automatic right of transfer to something else, whatsoever it is. You would have to start from the assumption that you would not get this money."

Scotland on Sunday has also obtained a leaked Scottish Executive briefing document, sent to finance minister Tom McCabe, which shows that ministers in Edinburgh have accepted that the cash will not be heading north.

The document, written by one of McCabe's officials, declares: "From experience with other policy areas we know that we would be unlikely to get this money back from Treasury and would have to make up the shortfall from Scottish Executive funding."

The document adds: "If in Scotland the council tax were replaced by a local income tax, council tax benefit would cease."

The precedent for the case being used by Executive officials is the row over the introduction of free personal care in Scotland in 2001. The introduction of the new right cancelled out another benefit, attendance allowance - worth £25m a year to Scotland. Despite lobbying from the Scottish Executive then, the money saved did not come north.

However, the Nationalists hit back last night, disputing the claims and accusing Labour of scare-mongering about the cost of their proposals. A spokesman said: "Labour is deliberately trying to scare people off about the cost of this as it tries to continue its defence of the unfair council tax. We have raised this issue with the DWP and with the Scottish Executive and we have never been told this is the case."

They said they would continue to pursue Whitehall over the matter. Nevertheless, the dispute will be damaging to their hopes of showing that the local income tax plan is financially viable.



Page 1 of 1

 
1

The Strategist,

28/01/2007 01:41:11

Labour truly are a really nasty lot.. This is pure spite.

2

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

28/01/2007 01:44:47

Comment@1 Dick, hi dude.....im sure they have a few other dirty tricks up their sleeve, this is just the start

3

Freeman Stand,

28/01/2007 02:11:44

Another New Labour scare story spewed forth by the Hootsmon! A moment of deep thought will reveal that when the Council Tax is abolished and replaced by a fair local tax, poorer people wont need to claim benefits to pay it. Is this paltry argument the best the Unionists can do?

4

Wisnaeme,

Sent to Coventry. 28/01/2007 02:15:11

.
Weel, we've had the "Britishness" carrot rammed down oor throats ad nauseam so ah suppose ITS TIME tae threaten us with the big stick.
No doubt there will still be a few obliging donkeys voting for Labour as per usual. Mind you, I have absolutely no doubt at all that "the Hootsmon" heartily endorses all this tittle tattle reportage being such prodigal champions of British media impartiality.

Aye,right.

5

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 02:30:57

Maybe if we just decided not to send ANY money south so that they could magnanimously give PART of it back to us would solve the problem?

6

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 28/01/2007 02:43:28

The SNP's taxation plans are based on the principles of 'Fuzzy Math'.

7

Royster,

28/01/2007 03:03:12

Please cut down on the rhetoric and don't be so quick to condemn. It's hardly rocket science. If you scrap council tax, council tax benefit will disappear. I assume if Council tax is paid throughout the UK they can't change the benefit just to suit Scotland unless everyone else moves to local income tax.

8

Bret,

New York 28/01/2007 03:13:53

Sir Humphrey Appleby and his 680,000 overpaid civil servants are still alive and well!
YES! PRIME MINISTER!

9

plord,

edinburgh 28/01/2007 04:21:08

"From experience with other policy areas we know that we would be unlikely to get this money back from Treasury and would have to make up the shortfall from Scottish Executive funding."

What else are they not telling us, "From experience" what experience?

10

Grant,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 07:27:57

#6 But its the Tories, Liberals and Labour that want to live on other people's money. I'd call that "fuzzy math".

11

Guga,

Rockall 28/01/2007 08:06:02

The Chief Thief of the Exchequer, Broon, will have put them up to this. It's yet another example of New Labour's lying and deceit. The sooner we get totally rid of this pack of criminal sleazebags, the better.

12

Royster,

28/01/2007 08:16:03

Look, council tax rebate is earmarked for council tax not for a tax that looks like council tax (ie local income tax). It would probably take an act of parliament to change that. Civil servants can't just go handing out money without parliament's permission, this isn't some corrupt third word regime. I suspect many SNP financial policies are like this - where they makes claims for money to which they think are entitled even though legally they are not. It helps balance their fantasy accounts and makes the Westminster government look bad when they don't, or can't for legal reasons, pay up.

13

rab, glasgow,

28/01/2007 09:35:59

Typical labour blackmail,scaremongering tossers. vote snp and you will be financialy punished, is this the best that broon and his london masters can do ,
5. Bill, Dunblane /Quite right , stop all monies going south, tell london to fcuk off. we will not need their 30 billion hand out in an indepenent Scotland.
Why are labour so scared of an independent scotland ?

14

Ian G,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 09:37:49

Hold a referendum and vote for Independence.
Bring in the local income tax.
Don't send any money to London.
Don't waste money on nuclear weapons.
Spend the money elsewhere.

Get our act together and do what is right for a small country within the E.U. Sign on for what is good for us all and reject others which don't.

Take out the top 10% of smart kids at school and put them together.
Take out the bottom 10% and bring them together in smaller classes.

Its hardly rocket science! Its not a dream, its not hard to bring about.
The problem is New Labour Mafia.
They run the U.K.
They run Scotland.
They run most of the councils.
And they run the unions.
HELLO!

15

Archie White,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 09:40:26

Westminster have stolen our oil tax revenues; now they want to steal the amount which Scottish taxpayers contribute towards the costs of Council Tax Benefit.

This nonsense (like the GERS nonsense) would not arise in a FREE Scotland where we had control over ALL our own taxes and expenditure. We could then raise as much (or as little) tax as we wanted to, and spend it as we wanted to.

It is most unlikely that a free Scotland would waste money on weapons of mass destruction, or on encouraging terrorism in this country by collaborating in futile and illegal imperialist wars on the dishonest and ludicrous pretext of defending democracy. We might possibly prefer to spend some of this money on, for example, raising state pensions to something closer to the West European average.

Archie

16

James,

Dundee 28/01/2007 09:57:15

New Labour games, by New Labour rules.
Scotland should challenge the London 'weighting' allowance, after all we are paying for that!
Why not ask for our proportion of that money to be 'rebated' to Scotland.

17

,

28/01/2007 10:04:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Cadgers,

Perth 28/01/2007 10:05:21

Scaremongering and blackmail , is this gloves off time?

19

kameroon,

lanarkshire 28/01/2007 10:12:49

For every man,women and child in Scotland that,s about 1Pound.60Pence a week.

20

kameroon,

lanarkshire 28/01/2007 10:19:43

For every man, women and child in England that,s about an extra 14P a week.

21

Royster,

28/01/2007 10:20:08

Do you really think civil servants can hand over cash without an act of parliament? If this is how the SNP operates then God help Scotland if the country ever gets independence. Ian G #15. An independent Scotland won't be allowed in the EU unless all states, including a future rump UK/England, allow it. Rump UK/England will be the successor state and Scotland will have to reapply. Just because the SNP uses the word 'scaremongering' doesn't mean that it is scaremongering.

22

Scaramouche,

28/01/2007 10:30:52

I remember a couple of General Elections past (and more) of the scaremongering that went on, when it looked like the SNP might get in.

The big companies, like HBOS, Standard Life, RBS and many others leafletted their staff, warning them not to vote SNP or they would lose their jobs as these companies would relocate outside of Scotland.

It's true, because I received one of those leaflets.

Of course, it's a warning and a threat and it should NOT be tolerated.

The will of the people is what democracy is all about. Anything else is subversion of that principle.

Of course, who said we were living in a democracy?? Maybe they lied??

23

kameroon,

lanarkshire 28/01/2007 10:34:41

I thought Scotland was already in the EU so Scotland leaving the UK = Scotland leaving the EU.
Puzzling!!

24

Edward,

28/01/2007 10:40:10

Yet more negative spin from Labour and its cheerleaders The Scotsman!
Its funny how they didnt report on what Henry McLeish has been saying about Labours negative campaign, its worth a read in the Sunday Herald
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.1...
Also the Sunday Herald have waded in with there opinion about Labours london led negative campiagn
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.1152...

25

Edward,

28/01/2007 10:43:49

Also in the Sunday Herald an article by Iain Macwhirter about how Labour are conducting there campaign, also worth a read
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.1152...

Now why cant The Scotland on Sunday/ Scotsman put articles like this out?, sorry forgot their keeping things low cost and relying on feed from Labour

26

Edward,

28/01/2007 10:50:15

#22 Your at it again, with mis-informed rubbish
As you very well know Scotland is already a member of the EU, just as England, Wales and Northern Ireland are, by virtue of being part of the UK. Also as you very well know the United Kingdom of Great Britain which is made up of Scotland and Ireland (under the 1707 treaty), if there is no Scotland, then ther is no UK!
So in the event that Scotland becomes independent, the EU will have to decide on how best let England and Scotland remain members or have them rejoin as independent nations, its a simple as that
It is highly unlikely that England would automatically remain in the EU and Scotland made to re-aply (and vice versa). Scotland has many freinds in the EU, so there would be possitive effort to ensure that an Independent Scotland would remain in the EU as well as an Independent England

27

James,

Dundee 28/01/2007 10:59:48

#24 and #27
Ok guys.

Don't worry about Royster, just because he says something, doent make it a fact.

Let him provide the evidence that this would be the case.

Come on then Royster, lets be 'avin you...........

28

Colkitto,

River clyde 28/01/2007 11:18:09

Westminster holding back money to Scotland on the lead up to a referendum vote ? Superb !!

29

Royster,

28/01/2007 11:25:07

#327. No so Edward, we've been through all this before. The lawyers apparently say otherwise. Check with postings by Fairfax on the above '300 years together post' (right hand side marked with the Union Jack). He appears to have dones his homework.

30

Royster,

28/01/2007 11:25:57

Sorry, Edward #27 I mean.

31

Pernickity,

28/01/2007 11:26:17

So much for devolution allowing Scottish solutions to Scottish problems!

Labour may think they have undermined the SNP with this one but they have only undermined themelves.

If this is going to be the attitude from Westminster then devolution is just a sham and independence is the only answer.

32

Pernickity,

28/01/2007 11:30:26

Royster 22 I am quite sure that the SNP did know about this They are actually being very clever here. Rather than attacking Labour for treating the Scottish Parliament and people with contempt they are simply providing a number of opportunities for Labour to demonstrate that themselves, while the SNP focus on a positive campaign about Scotland's future.

It's called giving them enough rope and Labour sure are desperate to hang themselves....

33

Edward,

28/01/2007 11:46:54

#31 Fairfax is an englishman spouting theory (mostly crap actually) He even considers that the UK would exist after Scotland becomes independent
which is grossly incorrect
Just to explain one more time, the title 'United Kingdom' is based on more than 1 Kingdom, in this instance it is the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, take away one Kingdom and your left with a single Kingdom, so by no stretch of the imagination can you still call England a United Kingdom!
To quote another poster, who just spouts the pro union pro english line is a joke

34

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 11:51:02

can any of the SNP supporters on here clarify the party's position on economic policy.

In an independent Scotland, will the currency and interest rate of Scotland be set by Scottish Chancellor / Finance Minister, shadow the £ and the BoE or will they shadow the euro and the ECB?

35

Edward,

28/01/2007 11:53:19

#33 Unfortunately it does turn out that the devolution project by New Labour is just that a sham, a way of controlling the Scottish people and to deny any aspirations of independence. It was a fact from day one under Donald Dewer, that this was seen as a sop to put down the support for the SNP.
But its now back firing on them, as Scotland is now realising that it does have the capabilty of looking after its own affairs , wether you agree or disagree on how that is done is another matter, the ensial thing is that it is doing it, the framework is there
Its now apparfent from what Henry Mcleish is saying in the Sunday Herald, the Labour campaign is being run from London as they dont trust Jack McConnell, as he is liable and is likely to state that Scotland is doing well, which would contrast with the neagtive spin about a country relaint on subsidy

36

Edward,

28/01/2007 11:59:05

#36 Im not with the SNP, Im actually a Labour suporter who want independence, but the question about Scottish currency is simple, in the process of independence, Scotland would set up a central bank to issue Scottish pounds, which would be pegged to either the English pound (as happened when the Irish Republic was formed) and the central bank would set the interest rate according to the economy of Scotland. Once Independence is fully up and running, then a decision would need to be made as to the next phase regarding currency
Its not rocket science. There is no problem in pegging a currency with one thats considered hard, such as the US Dollar or the Euro, many countries have done this in the past, such as Ireland and Luxembourg as well as China and Hong Kong

37

kameroon,

lanarkshire 28/01/2007 12:09:33

36 davieboy144-
Don,t worry Scotland will still accept the English pound as it now is. The big problem will be-will England accept the Scottish euro.lol

38

eric,

28/01/2007 12:15:32

cant wait to Vote SNP

39

Martyk,

SUSSEX 28/01/2007 12:26:41

how are local authorities funded in ireland. be an interesting comparison.

40

Royster,

28/01/2007 12:27:26

#35. Edward, Just because Fairfax is pro-union doesn't mean he is spouting crap. Law lecturers quoted in this paper have said the same thing - though you all denounced it as a conspiracy. As far as my understanding goes (and this is not from lawyers, just my understanding), the Act of Union is a Treaty, or a contract, and as such can only be nullified with the agreement of both parties. If Scotland breaks away it is seceding but that action does not mean that the UK ceases to exist legally - even if the name doesn't reflect the reality. As Rump UK has 90% of the population and most of the GDP, it would easily qualify for successor state status with all the votes and priveleges that entails. One legal precedent used is Algeria. Pre-independence, was part of the EEC as it was completely integrated into France like most of its present day colonies. Of course, no one knows until it actually happens but on probablity the odds are on Scotland having to reapply facing possible vetoes from France (Britanny), Spain (Catalonia and the Basques). As for London, who knows.

41

Dave M,

28/01/2007 12:32:18

30 Alma

Ctrl C

Ctrl V

You'd think that a paper with the name 'Scotsman' would come up with a story once in a blue moon that supported the main opposition party and wasn't perjoratively written.

At least nowadays, people can see through all the spin.

42

Andy M.,

28/01/2007 12:35:37

Surely part of my tax is paid to cover council tax rebate.

If this no longer paid to Scotland, will the Treasury cut my tax bill?

43

,

28/01/2007 12:39:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

kameroon,

lanarkshire 28/01/2007 12:47:51

Royster-42
London is in England.Is this another breakaway
REGION!!O I MEAN COUNTRY.

45

kameroon,

lanarkshire 28/01/2007 12:51:54

44-Andy m-
NO

46

GrahamH,

28/01/2007 13:00:47

Disgusting blackmail by labour.

UK government threatening Scots again.

Suppose need money from somewhere if can't sell any more honours.

47

James,

Dundee 28/01/2007 13:11:50

#42 - The Greenland precedent. After negotiating Home Rule from Denmark, which was an EC member, on February 23, 1982, a 53% majority of Greenland's population voted to leave the European Community, which it did in 1985, the only entity to have done so.

When it split from Denmark the EC did not ask Greenland to reapply. So tell me, why would Scotland be treated in any other way?

48

boudica,

Glasgow 28/01/2007 13:15:48

As the Scottish pound is worth more than the Euro ..I doubt any canny scot will go for it...and as for all those shouting for independance and the SNP the majority of Scots dont support Salmond or Sturgeon who lets face it both have as much charisma as a plank of wood and wouldnt trust them far as they could throw them we can smell Tories , Tartan or otherwise a mile away they have and will do nothing for this country the SNP are about as much use as a chocolate teapot ...anything we have in Scotland as come from Labour old and New ....and as for the European Union ..most Scots think that was the biggest error the UK made in joining it and will opt out first chance we get ..it has brought us not but grief and only the Chanty Rasstlers want it as I see most of them are in here next it will be Tommy Sheridan for President of Scotland ...Geeza Break ...hehehe

49

Neil,

9% Geowth Party 28/01/2007 13:15:58

So the Poll Tax was enforced by London on Scotland initially alone yrt it is necessary that Council Tax be the same throughout the country?

Mind you I think local income tax will be as unpopular as all the others. The problem, which all parties refuse to face is that there is no popular way of raising the enormous amounts spent by local government. The objective should be to spend less but that is opposed by councillors of all parties. In fact 80% of council spending comes from the central grant so if only they could cut spending by 20% & I have no doubt they could if Holyrood would reduce rather than increase their nanny powers there would be nothing to argue over.

50

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 13:39:14

#38

is this actually SNP policy or is it your interpretation of things, because what you are saying confuses me.

Basically what you are saying is that although the UK economy and the EU economy are at different stages in their economic cycles we would be pegged to one but have the interest rate from another which invariably would not be at the same stage in its economic cycle.

Doesn't sound to clever to me.

51

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 13:54:06

I think the arguement about will an independent Scotland have to negotiate entry into the EU is largely here nor there. There is no way the EU will send Scotland away as they have (not so rich now) reserves of oil and gas and the EU are very keen to get "security of supply" regarding energy.

There was a statement issued from the EU only 2 weeks ago saying that they (the EU) wanted more control of the memmber states energy supplies in response to one of the former Russian states turning off an oil supply pipe coming from Russia which in turn caused problems for France & Germany as this oil & gas was to power their countries.

The EU are desperate to maintain access / control of our oil & gas reserves.

That said it would be ludicrous to suggest that there would be no horse trading and as such we would have to give them something that we have got and they want.

Oil, fisheries, water etc. take your pick but the bottom line is if Scotland does become independent (god forbid) then we would have membership if the EU if we wanted it, but it isn't going to be for free.

52

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 13:58:42

Oh and another thing is that joining the Eurozone would be compulsory and therfore the ECB would set interest rates for the whole of the Eurozone irrespective of where the economic cycles of each member state was in relation to each other.

Or in other words, for the primary benefit of France, Germany, England, Italy and possibly Spain.

53

Edward,

28/01/2007 14:05:02

#52 As I said its my interpretation
Sorry that you are confused
I didnt say that the interest rate would be that of England (there would be no UK) or of the EU, not a mixture of both, no wonder your confused, you seem to be reading more into whats being said!
It would be up to Scotlands new central bank to set an interest rate in accordance with the economy
Remember there wouldnt be a UK, so England would have to do something similar
Have a currency pegged to another does not mean that you adopt the same bank interest rates as the 'host' currency that your pegged to, again would refer you to other countries that have there currency pegged to another and they do not adopt the same interest rates, pegging a currency doent mean adopting the currency

54

IWright,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 14:06:05

Another day, another fear
Another day, another smear
Another day, another lie
Time to wave the Brits goodbye

55

Jockyw,

28/01/2007 14:07:25

Labour Govt in Westminster is not playing of level ground.
Typical labour spin'
Surely the equivalent sum is due to head North. What are Labour doing, this will not sway my vote.
Labour head shed are all unfit & crooks. Goodbye.

56

Edward,

28/01/2007 14:12:41

#54 'for the primary benefit of France, Germany, England, Italy and possibly Spain.' You certain do assume a lot!
From what you say England will adopt the euro after Scotland becomes independant
At the end of the day its down to negotiations within the EU, there is nothing to say that Scotland would stay in the Eu, it may be more benificial to go the route of Norway and Greenland
If Scotland remained in the EU AND adopted the Euro, then off course the ECB is the central bank that sets the interest rates.
As for EU wanting to control Scotlands Oil and Gas supplies, it shoul also be considered that Holland and Denmark as well as England have offshore Gas supplies in there own right

57

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel,

Madrid 28/01/2007 14:23:20

It's all clear.

London subsidises the English region, the Jocks, Taffies, N. Paddyland, the EU and the Third World. These people toil night and day for everyone but themselves. I should know as I worked in Islington Council and it was a model of efficiency and productivity.

Were it not for these champions of decency, Scots would have to boil stones to make soup to feed their stunted infants and rickets-infested children. The only reason they could possibly want to be independent is because of pernicious nationalist propaganda that blinds them to this generosity and makes them lack the proper gratitude.

Thank goodness that there are still some stalwarts of common sense who are not afraid to express that country's indebtedness both moral and financial. One is satisfied with the splendid work of functionaries such as The Scotsman at enlightening that population and rescuing them from the perils of those zelous malcontents that poison their minds with ideas of equal representation on the world stage with proper nations.

That common sense might prevail they should be reminded of London's great burden at every available opportunity. In this effort we must persist even though that will upset the English regions to the point that no Scot can henceforth become prime-minister; still we must persist in our sacrifices in order that the Scots be protected from themselves; from cutting their blighted country adrift and tossing their society into eternal confusion and poverty.

We´d much prefer you sorted yourselves out Scotland but if you don't then we will have to do it for you.

58

Martyk,

SUSSEX 28/01/2007 14:25:41

to keep it relevant. i ask again ;anyone know how the irish fund local government and would it work in scotland?

59

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 15:03:41

#57

but my original question was asking for clarification of SNP policy and form my recollection they do not (this week at least) intend to set up a central bank.

You on the other hand do not appear to know very much. You vote labour, (presumably because your parents voted for them) but support independence.

You will also believe, naively, that an independent Scotland may not join the Eurozone whereas anyone with a grain of common sense and honesty can see it far enough.

Therefore are we getting real independence or are we merely transferring powers from London to Brussells.

This is a very complex issue, but as many people have fundamental views on here, even they can see there is nothing fundamental about independence in Europe

60

Jimmy The Hip,

Amazed 28/01/2007 15:21:38

Edward # 205

If anyone saw the Politics Show on BBC1 at 1245 today you will already know what Salmond said about interest rates in Scotland. For the rest; they will be pegged to the rate as determined by the Bank of England (BoE). They will be pegged until Scotland can adopt the EURO and then they will be pegged at the European rate, which Salmond said is 2% less than the UK rate. The Scottish rate could be allied to the BoE rate for 10 years or up to 70 years as was the case with Greenland and Iceland. So much for financial independence in Salmond's utopia?
The other participant in the discussion was Douglas Alexander, who wiped the floor with Salmond. Salmond could not sit in his seat for jumping up and down and in turn sneering, giggling and simpering, like a nit-wit. The sneer was wiped from Salmond's face, however, when Douglas Alexander pointed out that the only campaign being run from London in the May election was the SNPs. Wee Alec is flying by the seat of his pants and his pants are at half-mast; he is making his policy up as he goes along as today’s example evinced.

61

Calum10,

28/01/2007 15:21:40

So London Labour are planning to hit the poorest people in Scotland if Scots implement a fairer tax system at local council level.

It says a lot about the British state, devolution and the so called 'Union Dividend'.

The Tories are seen as the 'nasty' party, we can now add that Labour are the 'vindictive' party.

62

James,

Dundee 28/01/2007 15:29:40

#59 - the Iriash Situation
- Since the abolition of domestic rates in Ireland in 1978, the Local Government funding came ENTIRELY from Central Government. However, underSection 3 of the Local Government Act 1998 established the Local Government Fund, into which the entire proceeds of motor taxation (Road Fund Licence) are paid, as well as a yearly Exchequer contribution. The Fund is to be used to meet the expenses incurred by local authorities in performing their functions. The Local Government Act 2001 (Section 97) confirms the establishment of the Local Government Fund, and also provides for the establishment by each local authority of a Community Fund (Section 109) to promote ‘community initiatives’.

63

Jimmy The Hip,

Amazed 28/01/2007 15:29:55

Calum10 # 62

If the Council Tax is abolished in Scotland in favour of a local Income Tax, how can we expect a rebate on the, then, non-existent Council Tax?
That is the kind of logic deployed by Salmond; not rational.

64

James,

Dundee 28/01/2007 15:34:01

ooops - Irish.

65

James,

Dundee 28/01/2007 15:39:07

#64
Douglas Alexander wiping the floor with Salmond?

I've just looked out the window, as there was a sonic boom from the squadron of Boars thet flew past.

66

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel,

Madrid 28/01/2007 15:50:18

Douglas 'The Justified Twit' Alexander can't wipe his own bottom. You have to be in fairyland to think this nyaff is of use to man or beast.

67

Edward,

28/01/2007 16:06:34

#61 Typical Unionist viewpoint
It interesting that where as SNP are willing to tack about policy, Labour continue to pump out negativty
Thast a fact that you cant deny, so far Labour have not made any effort to talk about what they have acheived in the last 5 years, instead will only spout out half truthes and inuendo, with scare tactics mixed in for good measure. It amazes me that idiots like you soak the crap that labour come up with as facts. Why is it that so far Jack McConnell has not once appeared in any discussion with Alex Salmond?? Could it be that he isnt allowed to, for fear of not complying with Labours negative spin
Its widely reported in the Sunday Herald that Labour have embarked on a campaign of negativty (which is probably something to do with one of Bushes campaign advisers working with Labour in London)
The difference between Douglas Alexander and Alec Salmond is that at least Alec Salmond is an economist by qualification and proffession, whereas Douglas Alexander like his sistre are clueless about economics

68

Edward,

28/01/2007 16:08:18

#61 Further Ive just watched the politics show online and at no time did I see Douglas Alexander wiping the floor with Salmond, perhaps you were watching with dark glasses and ear muffs

69

barbour,

Dundee 28/01/2007 16:24:23

Bill.Dunblane & all the other "numpties"
Don't send any money to Westminster etc,etc and Westminster will recipricate(means we won't send any money north of the border).The English taxpayer will be with you all the way.PLEASE.
Don't elect the scottish MPs to Westminster Vote for Alex and his band of chancers.

70

Edward,

28/01/2007 16:35:59

#70 Barbour
You actually believe the crap that new labour are spinning
If Scotland has any pride left, it should kick out New Labour and give Brown/Darling/Reid a message that the Scits no longer believe the rubbish its being fed

71

barbour,

Dundee 28/01/2007 16:46:10

#71 Edward.
You are pre-supposing that Scotland has any "pride" left,folk living on handouts rarely have the luxury of "pride".

72

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 16:47:43

#68

your inability to give a clear answer to a clear question speaks volumes.

One of the most common arguements that a nationalist makes is that "interest rates are set in Westminster for the south east of England".

So it appears that the SNP would continue this policy and at some point in time transfer to the eurozone where the interest rates are set in Frankfurt.

Now, many folk might argue that a scottish government could set up its own central bank however the only political party with a realistic chance of achieveing independence is the SNP and they do not want one, (this week anyway).

So as far as the SNP is concerned its interest rates set in Westminster or interest rates set in Frankfurt.

Same old SNP lies and half truths that would make a snake oil peddlar blush.

73

James,

Dundee 28/01/2007 16:50:07

#70
English Taxpayers in Dundee, now there's an interesting concept.
Mummy send you an allowance?

74

,

28/01/2007 17:00:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
75

,

28/01/2007 17:07:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

Eve,

Scotland 28/01/2007 17:22:57

Insadently Douglas Alexander is in the Sunday Hearld saying "Salmond is just making it up as he goes along" He was the voice Vocals.

In this cullom Douglas comes across like he's trying to make sence of resent, Claiming that Scotlands veiws are brought in to considerations in the EU (His argument was, the words of someone with no proff)

In this short artcle he mention things that had no resemblence to what he had started to talk about.

This artcle is a complet modely (So many arguments, Non of them making any sence, what so ever apart from his last Comment which was:

"I and my colleagues would rather celebrate Scotlands success and the strengh we get from our partnership in the UK. Alex wouldn't come to that party - pity."

Sonds to me as if they'd (Labour party) rather play party games than debate about whats best for Scotland.

Where as Alex and co would be out campaingin of a better quality of life with an Independent Scotland. To empower the people of Scotland and create an equality with in Scotland that we could never have within the union of the treaty.

This Secretray of satre for Scotland appears, to be the one whos making things up as he goes along and when he can't think of anything to say he slags of the SNP.

77

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2007 17:32:25

Holyrood has no powers to impose a local income tax as this is a reserved matter to Westminster.

It does have the power to vary tax by +/- 3% but that extra income would flow to Whitehall not Holyrood.

This SNP policy, which labour is again attempting to scaremonger over, would only come into effect in an independent Scotland, where talk of £30bn budgets would be irrelevant, and these tax rebates would be a non-story.

78

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 17:32:55

#76 but it is current SNP policy that at first in a newly formed Scottish government, economic policy would shadow the BoE until we join the Euro. Absolutely heehaw about a Scottish Central Bank.

Now if your saying that you don't know what would happen or you don't know would what to happen then do you honestly think people will vote for it.

#77

If your selling something as a cureall and when you read the ingredients its just more rubbish as before (new labour economic policy) with a different label then its worthless.

Snake oil by another name.


SSSSNNNNakeoil PPPPeddlars

79

Jimmy The Hip,

Amazed 28/01/2007 17:36:22

James # 66

That settles it then; your "riposte" is about as penetrating as that of your illustrious leader, Salmond.

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel # 67

Deviation.

Edward # 68

I have relayed what smarmy Salmond stated. I don't expect you to be happy with it. But, that is Salmond's recipe for his Scottish utopia, leave interest rates in Scotland tied to the apron strings of the Bank of England. Loks like he doesn't have much confidence in a Scottish central bank under his rule. The Labour Party doesn't have to be negative in it's campaigning, all it has to do is repeat what Salmond says and that will be enough to derail his project. If you had seen Salmond on the Politics Show at 1245 you would have thought he was on speed, he couldn't sit still. I can't imagine any national leader taking him seriously.

Famous 15 # 77

Salmond has not practised as an economist since 1987, in any case he aspires to be First Minister not Chancellor or equivalent. Being an economist for a bank is a very different job to running an economy. To say he is a brilliant economist is hyperbole, to base a government on hyperbole is insanity.

80

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 17:39:58

70 - barbour

It would settle once and for all the lie that Scotland is subsidised by England.

We raise our own tax (and I mean ALL methods of taxation in Scotland) and have to live within our means. I'd be very happy with that.

Were it otherwise, Westminster wouldn't be so desperate to hang on.

81

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 17:45:38

Guess we can make our own minds up - for anyone who missed it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/defau...

82

Bill, Dunblane,

Silly me! 28/01/2007 17:53:15

Re. my post at 83

I actually imagined the BBC would have our version of the politics show on line. Should have known, only the English version available. I wonder why?

Another benefit of the union?

Or another instance of Britain meaning England in certain quarters!

83

Jimmy The Hip,

Looking for Salmond on the BBC 28/01/2007 18:01:04

Bill, Dunblane # 84

I heard a rumour that Alec Salmond begged, payed the BBC to take it off because it didn't show him in a good light ;-)

84

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 18:20:53

Never said i was satisifed with labour, but if you take away Trident & Iraq you're left with a couple of two bob tax & spend outfits that long on ambition but short on ability.

85

Jimmy The Hip,

Looking for Salmond on the BBC 28/01/2007 18:23:05

Least likely photo opportunity; Bono, Bill Gates, Alec Salmond together at Davos!

Richard # 86

The only reason is there is not more to criticise Salmond about is because no one has been stupid enough to put him in a position where he can make any decisions.

86

Eve,

Scotland 28/01/2007 18:27:07

#84. Bill, Dunblane: STV, more reiable and you can take part in a poll.
http://www.politicsnow.co.uk/content/

87

livilion,

livingston 28/01/2007 18:27:08

85. Jimmy The Hip

How many times did Douglas Alexander decline the opportunity to tell us who the leading companies are that he says are heading south after Scottish independence?
3? 4? 5?

Why could he not say who was running the Scottish election campaign for Labour at Holyrood this year.
Reid, Brown, McConnell, Alexander, The accused?

Former First Minister Henry McLeish doesn't seem to think much of his former colleagues if todays Herald is anything to go by;
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.1...

It seems to be a common theme that Labour representatives in Scotland do not seem to come over well on TV eg Wee Dougie Alexander(little boy lost) Union Joke (forty shades of pink under pressure)

Can you blame Alex Salmond if he finds it difficult to keep a straight face when confronted by these jokers?

When do we get the 'final version' of the Aron report that had Wee Dougie Alexander and his posse either excluded from EU meetings altogether, or made to sit next door while the 'grown ups' had their meetings?

88

Eve,

Scotland 28/01/2007 18:32:41

#85. Jimmy The Hip: Your talking nonsence.

The BBC open to bribs are you mistaking the BBC as being members of the Labour party!!! (maybe they can be bribed)

But not by the Scot Nats, as its the unionist who wasted money on daft things, like that.

89

Bill, Dunblane,

28/01/2007 18:39:17

85 - Jimmy

Possibly, but I was under the impression that only New Labour actively interfered with the BBC. :)

Alistair Cambell / Dr Kelly / Sexing up documents - Ring any bells?

BTW - Your arguments would carry a bit more gravitas in you didn't keep referring to 'Smarmy' Salmond. Politeness costs nothing.

Just a thought.

90

Jimmy The Hip,

Looking for Salmond on the BBC 28/01/2007 18:58:13

#s 90, 91, 92

You are all at risk of taking Alec Salmond seriously.

Livilion, when has any politician answered a straight question? I don't think that any Scottish based company is going to state in advance of an election that they will pull out of Scotland if a certain outcome is realised. That has implications from, staff, customer base to shareholders; they could upset a lot of applecarts. Alec Salmond would be the first to accuse them of attempting to influence the election. People in charge of large companies are not naive and are not going to telegraph their intentions.

Bill, if people didn't refer to Alec Salmond as a "brilliant economist" I wouldn't have to refer to him a "smarmy." He is no Nobel laureate when it comes to economics. In addition, "gravitas" is not a word I would in the same sentence as "Alec Salmond."
He has got no steel, he wants to be First Minister here, because he got nowhere at Westminster.

91

Bonnie Laddie,

28/01/2007 19:02:19

Anybody see Tony Blair on the politics show today - spoutin off about countries deserve to have the freedom to vote for the own government and the people of these countries should take care of their own affairs - and not be affraid of their governments etc etc etc -

He was talking about Iraq of course not Scotland who are only aloud to take care of some of their affairs and vote for a government that is answerable to a body in another country - and as for the being affraid

I would say some of the claims that Government are making are tantamount to Psychological Terrorism for some weeker and easily influenced members of the voting public.

92

Bonnie Laddie,

28/01/2007 19:06:16

I wouldn’t worry to much about the Tax blow either - where there’s a will there’s away

Scotland can overcome any obstacle that detractors or hinderences put in their way.

These people who choose to create obstacles in a divorce case are foolish, sad and quite usually twisted individuals who have lead to the divorce in the first place - after the split both parties to a relationhip can survive - as one door closes and all that!

93

Jimmy The Hip,

Looking for Salmond on the BBC 28/01/2007 19:10:24

Bonnie Laddie # 94

Politics isn't for people with weak minds, is it?

With respect to the tax blow, you are right. Alec Salmond's government will just put up the tax to those who remain.

94

barbour,

Dundee 28/01/2007 19:16:55

#82 Bill
It's not Westminster thats desperate to "hang on" but the "scottish mafia" in Westminster,please take them home and let the majority rule.

95

Jimmy The Hip,

Looking for Salmond on the BBC 28/01/2007 19:33:05

barbour # 97

I just don't get this "them and us " thing with Scotland and Westminster. If all the Scots in the cabinet at Westminster left, there would be no UK government. In this I include Tony Blair as Scots, although he is too smart to make an issue of that with the English. The English are quite a docile people who like to be led by Scots. It took us a long time to arrive at this destination, why throw it all away now? If us Scots worked together we could keep it all.

96

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 19:50:47

#99

The UK economy is run from Westminster, however is it not SNP policy (in an independent Scotland) to keep it there for the foreseeable future and then transfer monetary powers to the ECB in Frankfurt where it will be run for the benefit of France Germany, Italy, Spain.......................................... Poland, Eire, Holland, Scotland.

Admit it, the only reason you want independence is because your Anglophobic.

97

IWright,

Edinburgh 28/01/2007 20:27:41

#78
"Best" of all, he claims an independent Scotland would automatically be out of the EU, would have to get in line with other countries wanting to join and we would have to depend on a referendum in France on approving our membership!
Tempting to say you can't make it up - unfortunately they can.

98

barbour,

Dundee 28/01/2007 20:46:38

#98 The Hip
The next time the scots worked together will be the first,"It takes a lang spoon,highlanders,sassenachs,fifers,westies,the list of self imposed divisions goes on and on and on and on.Is it no wonder the "working" scot heads south.

99

davieboy144,

28/01/2007 21:02:29

#102

wrighty you forgot to copy paste the 2 nd paragraph

http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.1152...

100

Eve,

28/01/2007 21:29:00

#93. Jimmy The Hip: Rather Alec Salmond than Douglas Alexander, David Camroon, Ming & C.O. any day.

Supose the oppiste is for you!!!!!!!!

101

barbour,

Dundee 28/01/2007 21:29:52

To all,
Gd night all,
Got to mine the black gold.(It's in international waters by the way)

102

Eve,

Scotland 28/01/2007 21:45:34

#100. davieboy144: "Admit it, the only reason you want independence is because your Anglophobic"

Have you every heard of English members of the SNP? I have, I've met a few of them.
(No there not spys, and no one thinks they are etheir, incase thats your line of thinking)

103

CEBR,

28/01/2007 22:00:39

How many EU votes will scotland have when they become independent?, how many votes do scotland have now?.

How many EU votes will the remaining parts of the UK have after scotland gains independence?, how many votes does the UK (including scotland) have at the moment?

104

CEBR,

28/01/2007 22:04:51

Just heard gerry adam's vote to endorse policing in n ireland, looks like there will be a united ireland before an independent scotland.

105

Royster,

28/01/2007 22:31:14

#49. Greenland has not split from Denmark, it is not an independent country. It just wanted to leave the EU.

106

Eve,

Scotland 28/01/2007 22:38:21

#113. CEBR: You think this is the turning point (may be it is!!)

If Irelands re-united before Scotland becomes Independent do you think we could strick a deal with the Irish, that they prevent their mad unionists getting on the 1st boat to Scotland. (as they seem to be atracted here & I find it worrieing)

May be everyone in the UK should be able to vote too see if they wont there part to remain or leave and If only 1 wants to too keep it then, they'll just need to deal with the fact the others didn't.

107

Royster,

28/01/2007 22:40:03

#113. CEBR It is my understanding that Rump UK/England will have the same number of votes as it has now as it will be the successor state. Check with lawyers. tne UK will still exist as a legal entity if Scotland becomes independent,.

108

CEBR,

28/01/2007 22:58:51

# 117
I have no doubt we will keep all seat's allocated to UK, even with scotland independent the rest of UK will be about the same size as Italy.

Mr samlond seems to think scotland will obtain double the seats they have at the moment, but where will they come from?, which eu countries will be forced to hand them over to scotland? .

109

Jimmy The Hip,

28/01/2007 23:08:43

Richard # 99

Nothing gets by you, join the Salmond team.
You fail to understand that Westminster is run by Scots, read Sun Tzu. So what if a few snotty little prats at Oxford clubbed together to get themselves a £35 website. Only you are looking at it, better than navel gazing, I guess.

Believe Salmond's propaganda at your peril. There will be more people and businesses leave Scotland than arrive if he ever comes to power. Business likes certainty, Salmond can only deliver uncertainty. People will leave Scotland when taxes go up, wages go down and businesses go south, like Salmond.
If you want to believe Salmond's promises, so be it, but, ask him for more evidence that he can deliver, talk is cheap... Salmond's promises will not be...

110

Jimmy The Hip,

28/01/2007 23:16:53

Richard # 118

Do you think that the "high earners" will stay in Scotland to be worse off, so that Salmond can soak them for cash, would you?
In Salmond's Scottish utopia the only ones that will be worse off are the ones that are left. There will be a flight of personnel and capital and the remainder will have to make up the shortfall in tax receipts. Much of the north of England looks like Scotland, if you've ever been there, if taxes are lower a lot of your "high earners," your milk cows, will hold their high priced noses and pay less tax in northern England.
How much cash will have to be raised from the few "high earners" to fill the deficit that Salmond's government will induce?

111

CEBR,

28/01/2007 23:26:01

A guide to the European Parliament
There are currently 785 MEPs, 78 of whom come from the UK.

At the 2004 European Parliament elections, 732 MEPs were elected from the then 25 member states of the EU. With the accession of Romania (35 MEPs) and Bulgaria (18 MEPs), there will be an additional 53 MEPs until the June 2009 European elections.

After the 2009 elections, there will be a total of 736 MEPs, of which 72 will come from the UK.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/guide/textonly/GEPtx.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election...

It looks like scotland's number will fall to 6 for 2009

112

Eve,

Scotland 28/01/2007 23:29:06

#Jimmy The Hip: You've developed A very vivid imagenation.

Next you'll be telling us the gremalins are goney get us if we become independent, so we better stay in the union.

Two question: Do you own a crystal ball?

If so are you sure it's working? (& it's no really a foot ball)

113

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 28/01/2007 23:43:36

Scaramouche 23...any chance you still have any copies of these leaflets, their authors or where they were printed? A mass circulation by publishing these on the web would be a fantastic propaganda tool for all those who support independence. It would bring credence to the fact that there is a massive and somewhat covert conspiracy to intimidate the Scottish electorate into voting against independence.

114

Royster,

28/01/2007 23:57:53

I am not being economical with the truth. Rump UK will be the successor state, it's a given. I'm pretty sure mainstream legal opinion would argue the same as well. Personally I think a political solution could be found to allow an independent Scotland to remain in the EU; my argument is that membership would not be automatic as the nationalists claim (it would probably involve some kind of application subject to veto) and that Rump UK/England would not need to reapply and retain its existing rights. Rump UK/England would want Scotland in the EU anyway for trading purposes. Any veto would probably come from other EU states concerned about secession in their own countries such as Spain, Italy and France.

115

Royster,

29/01/2007 00:04:07

#128. The only thing that is going to bring massive investment to Scotland post independence is if the government massively cuts public spending and tax. This, in the short-term, means people who work for state getting poorer, the unemployed having lower benefits and less development in infrastructure and maintenance. If that happens, many English businesses and English people will move north of the border. This would probably lead the Rump UK/English government to cut its business tax rate to bring them back. All a bit silly really.

116

Barnowl,

Wales 29/01/2007 00:09:45

The whole silly transfer of funds across the border is so horrendously complex that most probably it is not fully understood by anyone and can be tweaked in any way people want. So relax, Scots, you will be better off after a couple of years of independence and clarity of tax gathering and Brussels will see you right with some nice juicy subsidies for those in need (see also France, whose need is rather less). Of course it helps if you are a huge agricultural producer (climate a bit awkward there), but Scotland could become one huge development area with a special category of its own. I see a rosy future for those with the courage to get on with it.

117

Royster,

29/01/2007 00:12:40

Scotland's only real market is England. Yes we deal with other EU countries but the only real market is England and this will not change with independence. Our only advantage, from a global economic viewpoint, is that we are next to the Engish market - we are not going to start competing with China and India on cost are we or with the US on technology? By remaining in the union we certainly remain in the EU and we are entitled to a share of tax revenues from a broader based UK economy. It's not as sexy as independence but be realistic; we are a nation of 4m people with an ageing population.

118

Hebb,

29/01/2007 00:21:41

Did anyone see The Politics Show? Dougie Alexander absolutely wiped the floor with that smarmy snake oil salesman Salmond. No, honest, despite all the evidence to the contrary, he really did. Made mincemeat of him. I know, because someone in head office in London told me to come on here and say it. And then to keep repeating the same daft assertions over and over again in a really sneering tone, 'cos that would stick it to the slimy anti-English Jocks and their xenophobic party membership (especially those Scots Asians for Independence, they're the worst, always goose-stepping around).

I mix it a bit as well, appearing to engage in some proper debate but making sure I pepper my contributions with good old fashioned unionist scaremongering and some sly insults. Tasty! I mean, those separatists - I said SEPARATISTS - live in a terribly scary, cloud cuckoo, fantasy economics, back of an envelope sort of land, filled with border guards, where nobody can find a job (apart from border guard work) as all the companies have left but everyone pays really, really high taxes, particularly local income tax, which hits hard working border guard families really hard. And, worst of all, the citizens of Sweatyland can never visit their relatives in the neighbouring country, or watch the BBC, ever, ever again.

After all, it's got to be true that Scotland couldn't be like any other normal country such as Ireland and run its own affairs successfully. Why? Because highly influential and respected international statesmen and non-liars like Tony Blair, John Reid (I hear he's got a PhD) and Gordon Brown say so. Oh, and so does that nice lad McTernan.

They've convinced me at any rate.

See you Jimmy!

119

CEBR,

29/01/2007 00:27:09

#127
So what's your take on the amount of eu MEP's the rest of uk will have, will they have the same?, or less?, what is your guess?

120

Bill, Dunblane,

29/01/2007 00:45:13

131 - AM

Tell us which company you are a director of? Do all of the other directors agree with you?

I have no idea what services or products your company provides, BUT, in any way that I may deal with it, or use it's products, I will immediately transfer my business to your main opponents, and I won't be on my own.

Works both ways!

What, you won't name it?

Wonder why.

Or is it all in your mind?

121

Bill, Dunblane,

29/01/2007 00:49:53

135 - Hebb - ;D

122

livilion,

livingston 29/01/2007 00:51:10

#132 Royster

RumpUK? Rump UK.
The name you are looking for is *England* no more, no less.

Curious for a soul of your extraction to be so reticent about using the name of his homeland, the land of Shakespeare.

However, should the people choose to call it Magic Pixieland, or John Bull's Heavy Posse, it will still be the Kingdom that joined with the Kingdom of Scotland in 1707.

England actually joined Scotland, if you follow the cronology, to form the UK.

She did not do so as the United Kingdom of England, or Rump Great Britain, even though Wales and Ireland had previously been ruled by Whitehall for generations at the time of Union.

When the Union is disolved there are only two Kingdoms and that is England and Scotland.

In law, they will share equal responsibilities.
To honour the international agreements, conventions and treaties, entered into under their pooled sovereignty, each resumes its former international status, but with just six of the counties of Ulster left tacked onto England this time.

Scotland will inherit it's share of the UK national debt(8-9%) and other UK commitments, just as she did when she assumed a share of England's huge national debt in 1707.

Of N.Ireland, Wales and England;
There's a movement to grant Kingdom status to the Principality and province?

Prince Charles, the Duke of Rothsay, promoted from Prince to King of Wales, and to King of Northern Ireland?

btw;Did the Irish ever get their Crown Jewels back?

Man, just see the face on Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams when they get that news!

123

livilion,

livingston 29/01/2007 01:10:05

#134. Royster

What's with the *WE* and the *OUR*?

Did Hull move up the coast to East Lothian?

Royster why don't you leave the English to get on with their own business in England, and leave the Scots to get on with our business in ol' North Britain.

We have heard your opinion repeated like a broken record on, and on, and on, and on.

You were wrong the first time you spouted it, and still are.

Or are you working on the Joseph Goebbels philosophy of if you're going to tell a lie, tell a really big one, and keep repeating it, and it will eventually be believed.

Sorry pal, but nobody you need to convince is buying that these days.

124

CEBR,

29/01/2007 01:24:43

# 137

At last, some common sense!, rest of UK voice will stay the same in europe, including 6 more English MEP's , that lays to rest nu labour's lie, and snp's wish, that England's voice and power would be reduced if scotland left the union..

125

,

29/01/2007 01:25:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

,

29/01/2007 01:29:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
127

Royster,

29/01/2007 01:48:09

#141. Rump UK will be the successor state; check with the lawyers if you don't believe me. I understand your argument on how you think a break-up of the UK should happen but the odds are it won't happen like that. How do you think Scotland is going to force Rump UK/England give up its sucessor state status when it has the vast majority of legal opinion behind it? Also, in my view the union (like any other contract or treaty) is not made void by one party walking away, it needs the agreement of both parties to annul it. Scotland will be in breach if it walks away so it will be a de facto act of secession. This will not result in the UK ceasing to exist legally.

128

livilion,

livingston 29/01/2007 01:49:36

Why would we want to remain subservient to the economy of England?

It is a house built on sand, thanks to Maggie and her boys.

England's manufacturing base has been abandoned and accounts for only a tiny proportion of GDP.

By far the largest contributer to England's wealth creation is the City of London.

I well remember the economic disasters of the 60s and 70s
That's when Britain had something solid to sell ('I'm Buying British!') and a British Commonwealth to sell it to.
The 3-4million unemployed in the 80's.

Remember;
Harold Wilson 'the pound in your pocket' forced into the deflation of the pound?

Ted Heath's three day week and the power cuts. Shopping by candlelight and bread strikes.
GB, the sick man of Europe.

Jim Callaghan going cap in hand to the IMF to bale out the UK treasury which was broke and Denis Healey being told in turn how to run his budgets by the IMF.

Maggie came in just as North Sea Oil revenue came ashore in 1980 and rode to the rescue, she called it monetarism we now call it fraud-ie McCrone, to cover up the destruction of the country's manufacturing base and instead built London Docklands to be the springboard for the resurgence of the City of London.

Remember John Major and Black Wednesday when the world ganged up on Sterling?

Scotland leaving England, and taking her revenues with her, will cause uncertainty in the London markets, (in any case, there will sooner or later be something else) probably far more pronounced than any Black Wednesday, and we may even see the LSE and the BoE(who's face would be on sterling then?) being sold off to the highest bidders.

Frankfurt and New York have already been showing great interest in a possible take over.

What then for the milk cow of the English economy?

It is built on the greed of guys in front of computer screens gambling trillions of pounds on the markets and awarding themselves £billions in bo

129

livilion,

livingston 29/01/2007 02:12:28

#147. Royster
From Jim Callaghan, Maggie onwards, every UK Premier has said that if it is the settled will of Scotland to have self determination, as guaranteed by UN Charter, then that is it for the UK.

50million Englishmen can't be wrong?

Sorry again mate,
It is not 'I'm An Independent Country Get Me Out of here!'

if you want to save the Union,
text this number followed by the word 'Union'

remember calls cost £1 per minute, make sure you have the permission of the bill payer.

The vast majority of legal opinion?

International Law does not work that way, otherwise India and China would be calling every shot and dear ol' Blighty would be done up like a kipper.

One lawyer can make a case against every other on the planet.
If he proves his case, he wins, that's it.

btw One lecturer at the Faculty of Advocates in Edinburgh does not constitute the vast majority of legal opinion Royster.

130

CEBR,

29/01/2007 02:32:03

livilion
Get a grip, your posting's revolve around a stupid idea that England needs scotland, and if you leave it will cause pain and hardship, fear and doubt, loss of power etc for the English, rest assured England dosen't give a toss about scotland.
scotland leaving the union is a win win for England.

6 extra English MEP's

English university student's getting free university tution in scotland (paid for out of scots taxs).

No more token jocks for the BBC (yes tokens , just like token black's etc in other public bodies).

No more Falconer (god he looks like that scots roll model who won pop idol, or is it the other way round?)

131

Royster,

29/01/2007 05:37:51

#148. That's right Livilion, keep talking our country down. The way you talk, I'm surprised the City makes any money at all let alone contribute to the coffers. So what if the LSE gets taken over by an American company, it won't affect the City. If anything, it'll attract more business. It must be quite galling for you that the UK has had the longest period of economic growth in recent history. These problems you mentioned were all overcome by a freely elected UK parliament. Thanks to this flexible and efficient government model of ours, the UK is not stuck in some rut like other European countries such as France and Belgium.

132

livilion,

livingston 29/01/2007 07:16:54

152. Royster

Talk the country down?

This is what has actually happened to the UK economy-I was there, look it up-it's a matter of record, rather than the doom and gloom you 'predict' for independent Scotland.

What's up sunshine, you can dish it but you don't like taking it?

Since WWI, the only period that the UK economy has shown such strong performance has been since Brent Crude hit the world market.

Coincidence?

That said, the UK economy is still running at a huge deficit, what is it now £700bn?

The basic idea now is that the City of London has a God given right to go on making vast sums of money gambling on the exchanges?

Round our way they say there are no poor bookies.

So what's to prevent a bigger kid coming into the LSE's playground and taking away her toys. Then what?

If Nasdaq buys out the rest of the LSE it'll be to put itself ahead of the NYSE, will that be so that Nasdaq can make England or the US richer?

Just suppose the LSE money runs out, in 5-15 years time, how does England plc re-float itself with little or no manufacturing industry left and her capital assets all sold off?

You see, the horror stories don't have to just be about Scotland, in global terms, England is really quite wee aswell.

133

livilion,

livingston 29/01/2007 07:25:40

#151. CEBR
This'll be the token anti-Scots posting then?

134

Royster,

29/01/2007 07:43:36

#153. Livilion. England may sell its assets to foreigners but it also owns lots of assets overseas. We live in a global economy. Having a manufacturing base is no good if it is not competitive. I'm not sure how you imagine an independent Scotland to make its way if you so against service economies.

135

livilion,

livingston 29/01/2007 09:07:45

#155. Royster

I work and make my living in the service economy.

Unfortunately it is like football, we may have invented the game, but Johnny Foreigner has a habit of coming over and showing us how he can play the game better.

It is a shame that this country, the UK, instead of making its traditional industries more competitive just destroyed them in order to get rid of trades unions.

eg This seafaring nation now has to depend on France, Germany and Italy building our ships for us, as we turn our traditional fishing grounds over to Spain.

We are sitting on top of centuries of energy reserves in our coal fields and worrying about Russia turning off the gas taps.

Our high tech railway equipment, which we invented, is built in Europe and sold back to us.

The space industry, which we once led, now sees countries, we described as third world, show us how to do it as we sit on our hands missing out on £billions worth of contracts.

Same goes for our aircraft industry, car industry, motorcycles, the list goes on.

Yes, we may have some people who own foreign assets, how does that benefit you and me in the UK?

'Black Wednesday' demonstrated how fragile that strand of economics is in the face of a hostile climate.

All I'm doing Royster is holding up a mirror for you to see yourself by.

You say we are much better off as an annoymous part of the UK.

I say if this is the best the UK can do, we should take our own chances.

136

seaweasel,

Glasgow 29/01/2007 11:48:46

To clear up the EU misinformation, the UK, and all the EU member states are party to the Vienna Conventions. The Vienna Convention dealing with international treaties states that if a country breaks up into separate nations, the new sovereign states remain subject to any treaties the predecessor state had agreed to.

Contrary to what the unionist propaganda tells us, this means that if the Union was dissolved, Scotland would remain a member of the European Union and NATO, as would England and Wales, and Northern Ireland (which would presumably become independent unless it formed a new union with England and Wales or the Republic of Ireland; I'd imagine Wales would need to negotiate independence from England as it was conquered some time before the Acts of Union).

137

fiferjohn,

29/01/2007 12:43:21

bacicly if you change ,make things fairer or decide to go our own way we will with hold all funds till you come back to our way of thinking. this is what passes as freedom in the union

138

Royster,

29/01/2007 13:01:48

#156. Black Wednesday showed the folly of fixed exchange rates. Fortunately, the UK was able to float its currency and cut interest rates. Ireland will not be able to this when its financial crisis comes. Owning foreign assets means that cash, in the form of dividends, flows back into this country and is subsequently taxed thereby helping to fund the government and social servcies, pensions etc. I don't know what kind of economic or political system you are advocating if you think we can hang on to our technology once it has been invented. Yes, we pioneered railways but that doesn't mean we have to manufacture them for ever and ever amen. You go where you can get the best return on investment and quality. Making ships involves some high tech but people have been doing it for a long time. #159. The lawyers say Rump UK/England will be the successor state not me. I think you'll have to accept that as a strong possibility.

139

Royster,

29/01/2007 13:05:56

#161. Trade Unions were in a large part responsible for making the economy uncompetitive. Nevertheless, if the can make a ship at 1/10th of the price in China than in the UK, obviously there is not much you can do. You can only really protect some shipyards for military reasons.

140

Gordon S.,

Edinburgh 29/01/2007 15:25:42

Fascinating isn't it, that the article entitled "Confidence in Labour and Blair falls to all-time low" allows no message to be left. But when the children at whitehall start their temper tantrums towards the SNP messages are allowed.

141

livilion,

Livingston 29/01/2007 20:36:59

#162. Royster
Perhaps lack of investment in design and development work didn't help as did victorian management attitudes?

What happened to re-investment into more modern equipment and production techniques?

If ships can be built for 1/10th of the price in China because Chinese workers get £1 a week in wages, and work under sweatshop conditions, should we really be supporting this?

btw
P&O's Superferries are built at Fincantieri, Trieste, Italy.

Cunard build their Carnival Cruise Ships at Mayer Werft in Germany as do most of the cruise lines.

P&O had Oriana and Arcadia, built at the same place in Stadt Pappenberg, Germany, but fitted out with as much British fixtures and fittings as they were able to obtain.
QE2 also had her last refit at this German yard.
20 miles up the Ems canal.

btw.The Germans only work 09:00-17:00 Mon-Thursday, 1/2 day Friday and never on weekends.
No overtime permitted, for anyone, when I was there.

Cunard's Transatlantic cruise liner Queen Mary 2,
Laid down at the yard of Chantiers de l'Atlantique, Saint-Nazaire, France.

These guys are all on comparable wages to their UK counterparts.

Now you tell me, what is it these countries have that we didn't?

142

Royster,

30/01/2007 00:11:21

#164. I have very little knowledge about Italian working conditions and state support, if any. I know the German economic model was widely praised during the 1980s though the high labour costs are competition are biting now. However it would take a complete reorganization of our society if we went down the German route. On the whole, German industry concentrates on high quality manufacturing, its workforce is highly skilled. This starts at a very early age, if you don't pass your annual exam at school, you have to repeat the whole year. Whatever business you are in, you are well trained. In return, you work very hard and don't cause trouble for your employer and any grievances are handled by a works council or one of the large unions. On the surface, this looks good but it does tend to stifle initiative and mobility between jobs. However apart from a few large banks and insurance companies, Germany cannot compete with the UK as a financial centre (which is why Deutsche Bank does most of its international business from its London office and London is the centre of fx trading for the Euro). I also think the German psyche harks back to the quality controls of mediaeval guilds and distrust high finance in the same way as the British psyche is against following orders from employers. Credit cards are looked down upon in Germany - if you don't have the cash, you don't spend it (uness you are the government). It really is a case of each to their own and as we are both in the EU it doesn't really matter. In fact it means we can compete with the US in both fields.


 

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