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Burt blows £1bn hole in SNP tax plan

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Published Date:
17 December 2006
THE SNP's plans for government were coming under further pressure last night after the influential head of an independent review of council tax backed claims that the party has a £1bn hole in its plans to reform local government.
The Nationalists want to replace the council tax with a local income tax, with residents being charged according to their salary, rather than the cost of their house.

But Sir Peter Burt, the chairman of ITV, who led a recent report into local government funding in Scotland, has warned that the plans would require the SNP to pump in an extra £1bn to keep spending on schools, hospitals and local services at current levels.

Burt's commission found that to raise the same sums as under council tax, the local income tax would have to be set at 6.5p in the pound. However, SNP policy chiefs want to cap their proposed tax at 3p.

Burt backed Labour claims last night that this would leave a £1bn gap. He said: "They will have to find another £1bn from somewhere to keep the tax down to 3%. Or they would have to spend less somewhere else. A Scottish government has got its grant under the Barnett Formula. If they spend £1bn on one thing, you can't spend it on something else."

He warned: "A 6.5% tax on an income of £30,000 would be £3,250, so it would be quite a burden for people in two-income families."

Burt's claims were hotly disputed by the SNP last night, which insists that he has got his figures wrong and that its sums mean most homeowners would pay far less than at present.

Party chiefs point to other analysis, which estimates that the tax rate needed to meet the costs of local services would be much lower.

Burt's analysis does not include the near £500m a year that poorer Scots receive as council tax benefit. The SNP believe this sum would be transferred to the Scottish Executive, if it took up local income tax, thereby helping to fill the gap.

A party spokesman said: "We would be more than happy to have our figures scrutinised by independent experts."

But Burt's claims were met with delight by Labour party chiefs, who are hitting hard against the SNP's spending pledges, believing they can prove they are unaffordable.

Labour finance minister Tom McCabe said: "There is definitely a hole in their plans, unless they are saying people are actually paid twice as much as they are."

Last week, the SNP issued a number of ambitious pledges. Deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon said the party would freeze council tax increases prior to introducing the local income tax in 2009. Leader Alex Salmond also declared there would be no tax increases under an SNP government.

Burt, meanwhile, also insisted that his controversial plans for a property tax to replace a council tax had not been ruled out, as has been claimed by First Minister Jack McConnell. His committee suggested homeowners could be charged 1% of the value of their homes - greatly increasing the costs for those in expensive homes.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 00:47:58

Is the ITV franchise coming up for renewal?

2

The Strategist,

17/12/2006 01:15:18

What precisely qualifies Peter Burt to make such a judgement anyway. Given the financial state of ITV he's hardly someone you could take seriously.

3

rab, glasgow,

17/12/2006 01:18:55

Aye, Another crap headline from the cheap low down editor from this rag ..

4

druidh,

17/12/2006 01:27:56

"Sir" Peter Burt - the man who sold out the Bank of Scotland to the Halifax BS - after scare stories about how Scotland would lose its major companies after devolution. That's how much he knows about Scottish independence. And his other great property tax plan has already been dismissed by his labour masters. Not exactly a roaring success then?

5

Wisnaeme,

Sent to Coventry. 17/12/2006 01:29:26

Quote: "the influential head of an independent review". Aye right. I wonder if that nice Mr Murdoch is beginning to take more than a passing interest in "Independent " television quango's and the high heid yin's views there of?

6

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 01:30:45

Labour sound about as worried of losing the Union as the Law Society were of losing the chance to fiddle complaints against crooked lawyers (pulling out all the peers to write/front reports on the bad news)

Labour have lost the battle already I hope .. now let's be having some clarity next May .. Labour & Fibdems over the side, please !

7

anderson,

aberdeenshire 17/12/2006 01:30:53

If it is true that Burt has "forgotten" include the council tax rebate and therefore is comparing net revenue from a local income tax with gross revenue from council tax then he should not have been in charge of any review - and if Scotland on Sunday realsie this then they should have had a very different headline!

8

,

17/12/2006 01:31:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 235717, Article id was mapped to record!
9

scottwebb.co.uk,

17/12/2006 01:45:28

You see the thing is, they show themselves time and time again as selfish idiots that see us as stupid.
The other thing is they have also shown themselves time and time again as a drain on us......so why is it sooo important ?
They see us as a mark

10

Ricky,

17/12/2006 01:51:16

Ha ha - more running scared claptrap - think about it - Scottish lamb - aberdeen angus - scotch whiskey - north sea oil - scottish salmon - scottish inovation - scottish financial institutes - 33% of the land mass of britian - fresh water to supply all of the uk - heritage to a 3rd of the US population - blah blah blah - and a measly population of only 5m - Scotland dump - England! - scaremongering from a worried government - I fear! -Independent report - Aye Right!

11

Ricky,

17/12/2006 01:53:49

Is he a Sir - how did he get Knighted - I believe their is an investigation into all this kinda stuff - Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ! - Ya’ve got to laff! No more will the world be blind to this kind of childish stupidity!

12

Sean K,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 02:13:35

Oh dear dear, the Solomons among us have spoken - men of such integrity and objectivity !

We must be the poorest and least competent oil-rich, skills-rich nation on the face of the earth.

One does not know whether to laugh or to cry !!!

13

Edward,

17/12/2006 02:18:05

Peter Burt knighted in 2003 for services to public life in Scotland (ha ha) freind of Labour, chairman of ITV (which is currently in the deep dodo)
and an admission that he overlooked figures. Can the Scotland on Sunday not pich something more credidable than a labour stooge

14

Ian_,

usa 17/12/2006 02:48:37

Even if he's right we'll be able to pay for it with oil money. I wonder what England will do about the massive hole in their economy once they're no longer able to plunder Scotland's oil. Study that Burtie boy.

15

employer,

glasgow 17/12/2006 05:31:15

Once again the standard of debate rhetoric and whit of the early morning crew astounds me. I take it that most of you have just returned from the pub and have decided to share your alcohol addled thoughts with the rest of us. I for one would prefer it if having read an article you took the time to comprehend it before spouting fourth.
1. it’s not Burt alone it was a commission, so lay of the personnel attacks.
2. For those SNP supporters out there two people working earning 20,000 P/A each would pay 1200 between them. Probably more than they do now
3."Burt's claims were hotly disputed by the SNP last night, which insists that he has got his figures wrong and that its sums mean most homeowners would pay far less than at present. “So either central government has to find more or some people would have to pay a lot more. by the way even discounting 500 million it still leaves a short fall of 500m (or 5%+ of all oil revenues, remember the 11 billion quoted includes gas revenues from Morecambe bay, and the Southern north sea sector.
4. Ian 14 what’s your point, if you live here join in if you don’t keep out, certainly this argument has nothing to do with England. PS look at the hole in your economy
5. Ricky stay on string, you ramble like a drunkard,
The thought of you guys been able to vote is only slightly less scary than you being allowed to breed judging by some of your posts.

16

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 17/12/2006 06:42:50

SNP spending is based on the principles of "Fuzzy Maths"
Alex Salmond says the SNP a re going to do a whole host of things without increasing tax.
Aye, right.

17

Dave M,

17/12/2006 06:51:05

I'm glad that I don't work for the arrogant 'employer' above.

I find it strange that people like Burt are delighted to ambush the SNP but are more than happy to fund an illegal war to the tune of billions.

I, and many people, are sick to the back teeth of this lying, greedy and bullying Labour government.

The party is over.

Its time...

18

Mcsnagpile,

Vietnam 17/12/2006 07:53:06

The consistent gentle media frighteners are only a prelude. UK have never hesitated to armed conflict be it Iraq, Afghanistan, Falklands, Northern Island to the tune of lives and billions of tax payers LSD. The wildest stretch of my imagination does not see UK giving Scottish independence, with resources such as oil even with a 100% SNP plebiscite vote. However, the best way to make up the SNP short fall is to find a buyer for our over priced Edinburgh Hacienda.

19

Chaplin,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 08:07:31

I've got to fully agree with Employer (16).
The standard of debate at times is pitiful, snide jibes at anyone who disagrees with your personal viewpoint reflects mostly on the commentor and some of the opinions expressed are banal at best and at times racist. It also worries me that some of you are eligible to vote.
If we are to consider Independance then proper questions with real / truthful answers must be levelled at both sides.
To read these columns you'd think that everyone in Scotland was pro independance but that is far from true. What worries me more is that the majority of our English cousins want rid of us and to be honest who would blame them, all we seem to do is winge and moan about them.

20

Tick Tock,

17/12/2006 08:29:47

#10 Scotch whiskey?? Apart from that good points. The whole thing is, the Scottish Parliament has its faults because it is new and as an institution needs years and maybe a generation to settle down. But it is the right thing for Scotland!

Similarly, an SNP government needs to be able to grow - and yes make a few mistakes - before they get it right. But there are a great many people in Scotland (and next May will show how many) who feel they are the only party who really has Scotland's interest at heart. Whether that be full independance or greater devolution to start with, I (as another one who was euphoric on Labour's victory in '97) will vote for them and give them a fair crack.

21

Real kilts,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 08:30:47

Eddie Barnes listens to dribble writes dribble what a fatherless person and what a Labour arse licker why does he not go back to school and get one of labours new school leaving certificates an ASBO

22

Cadgers,

Perth 17/12/2006 08:45:47

#16 It's personal not personnel.
#20&21 It's Independence.
#22 ?

23

Borderman,

Borders 17/12/2006 08:52:01

Talking of fuzzy maths...

"A 6.5% tax on an income of £30,000 would be £3,250..."

24

Old Roy,

Black Isle 17/12/2006 08:55:41

Usual yah boo replies from the SNP rabble - 'There are none so blind as those who will not see!'

25

rab, glasgow,

17/12/2006 09:10:01

"Labour finance minister Tom McCabe said: "There is definitely a hole in their plans, unless they are saying people are actually paid twice as much as they are". Just like executive ministers bank their wages and live off their exuberant expences,eh
mcabe.

26

Dave M,

17/12/2006 09:10:53

25.

Roy, we can see.

Its maybe time that you opened your own eyes and stopped seeing the SNP as 'rabble'.

Can you explain why Scotland shouldn't run its own affairs?

I've been self employed for twelve years and have made a success of it although I could have failed.

An independent Scotland will be a success if we want it to be a success.

It would be good if you could be part of it.

27

Shug,

UK 17/12/2006 09:12:47

Boring!

It's got bugger all to do with the maths. Both sides will spout figures when the reality is that no one really knows what the reality either is or will be.

At the end of the day, if you are in favour of independence you will vote for independence (and vice versa). The politicians on both sides clearly feel there is a vast group of people who are undecided and will only vote for independence "if the money is right".

I think most people will ultimately vote with their gut instinct so lets drop all this economics crap. If Scotland gets the vote and chooses independence the majority will ultimately not care if they are worse off financially. We might need to tighten our belts, a few thousand civil servants might need to lose their jobs and our elected government will need to learn how to concentrate our money on the important things in life...no bad thing really.

28

Old Roy,

Black Isle 17/12/2006 09:21:27

#25 I do not know any SNP supporters so can only judge by the contributors to this site whether they are rabble or not, I cannot be any clearer.
I had been a successful businessman for over sixty years and now retired and fully aware of the many risks in business which are often unexpected and have to be worked through. However the risk involved by 'Independence' is far too high economically and totally unneccessary, I fear that as usual the Central Belt Lefties shall dominate the political scene with dire results. As a yard stick consider the antics of the Scottish Parliament etc etc
ochone ochone.

29

Agent 99,

17/12/2006 09:25:12

Perhaps if teachers were rid of the requirement to spend 50% of their time writing reports and other such ephemeral activities rather than teaching then so-called funding hole could be eliminated.

This idiotic report comes from the stance that current spending is a "good thing". Sure, spending on education is a good thing, if its focused on education, and not meaningless target chasing.

Dismantle the absurd beareaucracy constructed by these labour fools and the costs will drop accordingly. Simple. Perhaps too simple.

30

Archie White,

17/12/2006 09:25:43

We are talking of different scenarios.

As long as this dysfunctional "Union" staggers on, we are hamstrung by British legislation, the Barnett formula etc; and we are limited in the extent to which we could reform local government finance. Nevertheless, even existing devolved powers would allow us to introduce a much fairer system than Council Tax.

An independent Scotland would have much more freedom of action. We could, for example, have the following choices:

(1) Fund local government entirely by central government grants. Already 80% of local government expenditure, on average, is funded by central government grants - why not 100%? (Local accountability is limited by central government's mandatory requirements, and in any case local acountability is not necessarily dependent on local tax raising powers: the Scottish Parliament has acted diferently from Westminster on many issues, though it has chosen not to use even the limited tax raising powers which it does possess.)

(2) Set central funding at different levels, so that the remainder of revenue which Councils needed to raise through a local income tax could be at different levels. Depending on the amount of central funding provided, the rate of local income tax could be 3%, or 4%, or 5% or whatever. That would be a political decision, and voters could vote for the party whose policies they preferred. The money has to come from somewhere, either central taxation or local taxation.

Archie

31

Shug,

UK 17/12/2006 09:29:11

29. I have to agree. If ever there was a reason not to vote for independence it is the current Scottish Parliament. If allowed to carry on at their current rate they will bankrupt the country inside 20 years, oil or no oil.

32

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 09:31:41

6.5% of 30 grand is 1950. Burt must be using the calculator from Scottish Labour HQ.

33

Borderman,

Borders 17/12/2006 09:35:34

#27,28,29 Good points all.

Old Roy, I also worry about the Central Belt Lefties. But I think that independence will provide the better chance to expose them. Right now, they thrive in local government and the Scottish parliament where they can win favours without any real accountability. It's in their interersts to hold back the Scottish economy. I also suspect that these same CBLs will be the strongest supporters of Union.

34

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 09:36:13

I think I'll be in a rabble today and allow myself to be talked down to by superior types who just happen to support Dependence.

35

Andrew.,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 09:36:29

"A 6.5% tax on an income of £30,000 would be £3,250..."

It appears to be based on a couple whose joint pre-tax earnings are £50K. Post tax earnings would be around £30.

Or

It could be mixing pre and post independence currencies using approximate exchange rates. ie £30,000 pre independence income would have the equivalent of EUR3,250 tax post independence when we drop the shackles of Sterling.

36

Dave M,

17/12/2006 09:37:29

Old Roy, thanks for your reply.

Can you tell me which independent countries you feel are struggling because of their independence?

Are you able to identify any countries which have become independent and which are keen to restore their former relationships?

Why should decisions taken in Westminster be acceptable and those taken in Edinburgh unacceptable?

Are there no circumstances under which a government in Edinburgh could be able to manage the future of Scotland?

Do you feel that the billions spent on the Iraq 'war' was acceptable?

Sorry for all the questions but you seem to have ruled out the opportunity for my children to live in an independent country and I feel very strongly about that.

37

Cadgers,

Perth 17/12/2006 09:45:18

#37 Well said Dave

38

grannie,

Glasgow 17/12/2006 09:52:49

Could someone please explain to me the differance between the present council tax and a property tax. As I understand it Council tax is based on the value of a house, much the same as the old rates system (rateable value:- how much it could be rented for). I fail to see how different it would be based on the value of the property. Seems to me the same only under a different heading .Am I wrong?

39

Iain green,

East Lothian 17/12/2006 09:57:21

Interesting.
Every anti SNP statement is taken by the Scotsman as God's own truth, whilst everything that might be construed as being pro Scottish is deemed to be questionable at best.

We must be the only nation in the world which is happy to vote for politicians who support a state which opposes Scotland's national interest.

Points to note:
1. Burt is a knight of the realm, put where he is by Tony Blair. His review is far from disinterested, and is published to dish the nats once again.
Dream on.
(Look out for more amazing revelations from unctuous establishment grovellers over the next four months.)
2. They are seriously trying to convince us that, alone on this planet, Scotland isn't competent to run its own affairs.
Does any one still believe this foolishness?
3. they're frightened of us, and ain't it fine?

One word for Old Roy.
If the SNP are elected, then those Labourite and SSP central belt lefties won't be in power, will they?
It'll be us.
Have a look at Jim Mather's policies (on the SNP website), and chew it over.

40

Mikey,

17/12/2006 09:59:52

Dependence or independence, that's the question! Areyou of the opinion tht Scotland should forever be going cap in and to London, or are you in favour of us running our own affairs?

There is no middle ground now. You either want Scotland to join the top table of nations or you want us to remain a dependent backwater. You choose in May.

41

Jim C,

17/12/2006 10:07:16

Imagine a finance problem were discovered in an independent country. Would that be reason for making a union with another, better off country? Or, if such a problem does exist, should it be fixed in the country itself?

When the UK was nearly bankrupt under the Tories in the early 1990s, or under Labout in the 1970s, should Westminster have proposed a union with Germany to solve its problems?

42

YabbaDabbaDoo,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 10:28:53

#3 Agreed 100%. THis is tabloid journalism.

43

Calum Crubag,

17/12/2006 10:32:17

'Sir' Peter Burt - a lack of credibility here. ITV is a midden. He should get his own house in order first.

Plus, just how did he get his knighthood.

Scotsman Corp scraping the barrel for propaganda and scare stories now.

44

Calum Crubag,

17/12/2006 10:33:36

#42. Correct. How many holes are there in London policy? Where does the war/Trident money come from?

45

,

17/12/2006 10:35:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Jim Hendry,

Romania 17/12/2006 10:35:43

I find it rather ironic that this Labour Government sets up commissions to investigate the spending plans of their opposition yet fail so abysmally to budget for The Dome, The Scottish Parliament building, the London Olympics, the NHS, Pensions, Defence spending et al.
No one needs lessons in budgetary control from this incompetent, corrupt government and its advisors.
As an exiled Scot I would rather the whole of UK PLC was independent of Blair and his crowd forever.

47

Hamilton,

17/12/2006 10:42:46

Another perspective?

"While the [Labour] party has claimed publicly that an independent Scotland would face economic catastrophe because of dwindling oil reserves, the internal Labour document says the industry will continue to flourish for decades to come."

"The disclosure comes after government figures suggested last week that, without the tax revenues generated by oil, an independent Scotland would face an £11 billion black hole. That led Labour to claim the SNP would be forced to raise taxes or cut public spending if they win power next year and Scotland becomes independent." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2509068,00....

48

paul the binman,

17/12/2006 10:53:18

Wow what a simple world,every one against Independance is wrong in every thing they say.Every one for Independance is right,I cant wait,what a wonderful place Scotland is going to be,no unemployment,no poverty,no drug adiction and no crime.Every school kid will be a genius and every one will have oil money to burn,cant wait .

49

donald,

weegieland 17/12/2006 10:54:01

Union Jack pants on fire.

Liar! Liar
Union Jack Pantos on fire.

50

Ian G,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 10:56:45

Roy Old Boy!
10% of Scots are left handed: 10% are gay; 20% of party members are SNP. Of course you know SNP members they look just like you.
Or perhaps you thought they walk around wearing tartan? Those would be the tories. Or you belive they wear yellow and black?
I don't carry an SNP umbrella or wear a kilt so how are you going to know if I vote Labour: SNP; Conservative, Lib/Dem, Green or SSP?
Unless you are a recluse never leaving you home, you know all or at least have met all of the above, they don't have two heads old chap.
And when you sit in your leather seat drinking a malt some of those businessmen tories will not be what you think. Many will be left handed green voters some gay SSP voters and many businessmen would even be SNP members.
Frightening isn't it?
Even in the Black Isle all of the above live there.
Welcome to the real world!

51

Toast,

17/12/2006 11:02:14

Cut corporate tax and red tape and every major company in england will be rushing to Scotland,problem solved,oh,and performance related pay for MSP's

52

radical pink,

fife 17/12/2006 11:05:35

The suggested hole in the economy is a scare tactic and far less scary than the one labour has already created and intends to create in future, if they're not stopped.

No one really knows if the SNP have got their figures absolute, not till the water is tested will anyone know for sure.

More important than who gets in next May, is the need for political integrity. This is surely the crux of the matter and far outweighs the on going cost of political deception and disaster.

53

Ian G,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 11:09:07

Wow what a simple world,every one against the Union is wrong in every thing they say.Every one for the Union is right, I cant wait, what a wonderful place Scotland is going to be, no unemployment, no poverty, no drug adiction and no crime. Every school kid will be a genius and every one will have hand-outs, money to burn, cant wait, to be a part of the Union. The U.K must be paradise indeed why would we ever wish to leave it?
God indeed must be an englishman. And we Scots are so unworthy and should be more thankful for the hand outs. Lets all fall on our colletive knees and kiss their coats. And be forever thankful.

54

Vigilant Watcher,

Bo'ness 17/12/2006 11:18:26

If the state of the current Scottish Executive, according to some of the above contributors, doesn't fill them with confidence, the corollary is that, London Labour does!

This week alone, TB interviewed by police in the 'loans for peerages' affair, TB instructs SFO to drop corruption investigation, TBs aides, as reported in this very issue, to be interviewed again before case being passed to crown prosecution.

All just in one week and that inspires confidence; take off those blinkering shades and see the reality.

55

Craig Munro,

17/12/2006 11:19:57

Aye, but what we DO know is that there is a projected deficit of £70 billion for UK PLC!

Now that IS news.

56

livilion,

17/12/2006 11:24:21

"".... A Scottish government has got its grant under the Barnett Formula. If they spend £1bn on one thing, you can't spend it on something else." ...""

Sorry but did I miss something here?

Has Alex Salmond decided an Independent Scotland will retain the Barnett formula?

57

livilion,

livingston 17/12/2006 11:38:19

This Burt is that the Same guy that's been banging on about replacing Council Tax with his Property Tax and trying to rubbish any other alternatives?


""..."Burt backed Labour claims last night that this would leave a £1bn gap. He said: "They will have to find another £1bn from somewhere to keep the tax down to 3%."...""

Before Burt’s long-awaited report, "A fairer way", was published on November 9, the new plan had already been effectively rejected by First Minister Jack McConnell.

‘Sources close to the first minister’ – reacting to a leaked version of the main recommendation – said there was ‘no way’ that Labour ministers would support a tax that required householders to pay about 1% of the value of their house each year.

For McConnell, the doubling or tripling of affluent ‘Middle Scotland’s’ council tax liability was the last thing he needed within six months of a potentially close-run election.

In retrospect, he might be wishing that – rather as has happened with the equivalent Lyons inquiry for England and Wales – he had kept closer supervision on the committee’s activities to ensure a measure of political reality.

http://www.cipfa.org.uk/publicfinance/news_details.cfm?Ne...


Sorry Scotsman can do better than rehash last month's news and put a scary headline on it.

58

Dave M,

17/12/2006 11:45:09

Livilion

You seem to have a personal hatred of Alex Salmond.

Independence is about a lot more than the personality of one man, its about all of our futures.

You will find that more and more people from all parties are supporting independence and the idea that we could be so much more successful and confident than we are at the moment.

Hop on.

59

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 11:55:00

23 - Cadgers

It could be 'personnel' attacks from 16 - He sounds like that type of 'employer! ;)

60

livilion,

livingston 17/12/2006 11:56:10

Oh just in case you didn't get the point of the last posting@#58.

Labour were forced to distance themselves from Burt's claims of a £1b gap.
A black and white negative of what was printed by EDDIE BARNES
POLITICAL EDITOR .
http://www.cipfa.org.uk/publicfinance/news_details.cfm?Ne...


ie Your Sunday paper is printing blatant lies that even the Unionist parties rejected.
check the above link.

61

livilion,

livingston 17/12/2006 12:02:44

#60. Dave M
Now Dave put finger on screen and read slowly;

Alex Salmond, Independent Scotland, Barnett Formula.

Which is the odd one out?

Get it now, gimme strength!

Suggest you also check the link @ #62.

62

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 12:10:19

Scotland on Sunday - would you consider having a 'Report as unsuitable' link on your articles also?

54 - Ian - nice riposte to 47!

63

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 12:12:28

Sorry typo - should be 49 not 47

64

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 12:14:00

The Scotman's agenda is to mobilise SNP voters and that is best done by rubbishing the potential for an independent Scotland. It is a tactic used to tease children; give them something, then take it away and they want it all the more.
The Scotman will be delighted if Alec Salmond is Scotland's First Minister (FM) next May because that will guarantee that David Cameron is Prime Minister in 2009 or 2010. The Scotsman's job will be done and Scottish independence will be a pipedream for at least another generation.

65

JimC,

17/12/2006 12:15:40

The same Sir Peter Burt that has almost bankrupt the ITV, is this also the same Sir Peter Burt that old Joke told he did not like his grand plan for the reform of council tax? And why do you think Salmond said that the majority of Scots would be better off? Because the majority don't earn £30,000 a year, that's nearly £580 a week, or £14.50 an hour......dream on fool. It's also high time we had a good look at local services and the massive amount spent by councils on manpower, poor management and wasted materials. The Scotsman seems to be determined to print any rubbish that is detrimental to the SNP, true or otherwise.

66

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 12:16:51

So here we have a Labour loving ITV leech who if Scotland were independent would most likely see his franchise over the Scottish network change in some way.

So of course in order to crawl to Blair and Co. he launches an out and out attack on the SNP.

Their will be MANY such Labour loving self-serving creeps willing to spread their misinformation and propoganda between now and May.

I think most people realise that the Labour lies will come in thick and fast now and accordingly ignore them.

67

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 12:17:43

See Paisley Labour party is out with the conspiracy theories thius morning

68

Archie White,

Glasgow 17/12/2006 12:19:33

Grannie

I am replying to your post (no. 39)

One difference between Council Tax and the Burt Committee's proposed Local Property Tax (if I have understood it correctly) is that Local Property Tax would not be capped, as Council Tax effectively is - there is no band higher than Band H. This means that, for example, two married (or cohabiting) company directors with a joint gross income of £200,000, and living in a million pound mansion in Glasgow, currently pay only £2,426 in Council Tax (about 1.2% of their joint gross income), whereas some pensioners and others on low incomes can pay 25% or more of their income. At least this rich couple would pay about £10,000 under the Burt proposals, and that should reduce the bill for the less well-off. The Burt Report estimates that 45% of people would be better off, 20% no worse off, and 35% worse off.

But the Burt Report does not really address the fundamental problem that there is no necessary correlation between the value of your house and your income (or even other disposable assets)- and most of us have to pay our local taxes from our incomes. The value of your house does not pay your local tax: you cannot sell off a few more bricks from your house every month to pay your Council Tax or Local Property Tax. Many people on modest incomes, having bought a modest house, have seen its value increase astronomically through no fault of their own: this can happen, for example, when yuppies move into former working-class areas. Burt's only answer to this appears to be to make something very like equity release available to those of a certain age. But pensioners are not the only people on low incomes.

For regular taxation (as opposed to one-off taxation), the only fair and workable locally-set tax is one based on income. If you want to tax property, the fairest way to do it is to tax profits on house sales - but this is more suitable for national, not local, taxation.

Archie

69

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 12:22:42

As the London Labour Party are sending their English attack dogs up North to spread lies and misinformation I think it's only fair the similar lies are spread about Labour ...

Watch this space

70

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 12:29:03

66 Pete,

C'mon man, if that was the outcome, do you think a Tory government in England, with virtually no support in Scotland would make independence LESS likely?

Those of us, including your good self, who take a keen interest, already know how we are going to vote. It's the people that don't know, or who are not particularly interested in politics, that will be influenced by headlines such as these. That is the agenda.

I agree with you on many subjects, but wonder at times why you continue to support a Labour party which is so far away from it's roots. After independence, you would be much more likely to have a government in line with your beliefs, whatever it is named.

71

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 12:33:03

Jeff # 69

It is pretty simple Jeff. Salmond is not capable of running a government, neither he nor his cronies have any experience of running anything. Salmond is not a serious politician, he will leave Westminster a failure.
Why was he even in Westminster when he does not believe in it? Unless he is just another snout in the trough.
Salmond is great with snide "off the cuff" put downs as long as he has 24 hours to work them out. Salmond like Margo MacDonald has a great future as a pantomime dame.

72

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 12:51:04

Bill, Dunblane # 72

Next time I vote I'm hoping to vote for Segolene Royal.

73

Calum10,

17/12/2006 12:54:47

They are doing a special on scaremongering stories is the SoS at the moment - buy into 3 and get the cheapest one free. It's called the Union Dividend.

Mind you it would be probably better to wait until after Xmas, SoS will knock down scaremongering stories by up to 60%.

Honestly, who actually believes such guff?

Some honest reporting wouldn't go amiss at the SoS.

74

Xhile,

West Mids 17/12/2006 12:56:07

Toast, #52
"Cut corporate tax and red tape and every major company in england will be rushing to Scotland..."

This is the most sensible observation I've read for weeks.
The idea that an independent Scotland would maintain the status quo and just continue as an England-Lite with all the tax levels, regulations and gross structural incompetance is ludicrous.
Look to Ireland to see what is possible when a small independent country has true freedom to act for its own benefit.
Every anti-independence argument put forward by Labour supporters in both Scotland and England should be considered on the basis that they fear their gravy train is about to hit the buffers in a big way!

75

North Enclosure ER,

Hungerford 17/12/2006 13:03:52

For those who like pointing out incorrect spelling may I point out that Scotland's National Drink is spelt Whisky and not Whiskey ! Whiskey is the Irish drink.

Re Mr Cameron or any other leader of the Conservative Party getting into power in Westminister then they would be unlikely to have a mandate to govern Scotland.
Surely Independence would follow - there being no Scottish Grand Committee to pretend to be governing Scotland - like Mrs Thatcher's Goverment did on a previous occasion when the UK made the mistake of electing a Tory administration.

76

Penicuik Laddie,

Dubai, where else? 17/12/2006 13:10:32

So according to the Labour party, we're too poor, too stupid, utterly incapable of running our own country... if Sir Peter is to be believed we really are subsidy junkies... What is it about the Scots that we are the biggest oil producing nation in Europe, have over capacity in electricity and other resources, invented everything from the TV to tarmac, known the world over for our "financial prudance", yet when it comes to running our country Unionists say "we cannae dae it". For almost 1000 years Scots did run their own country and when they had none of the assets stated above, to hand... What value or price tag do you put on full self determination? I think the money that Mr Burt outlines, if it really is a hole, could easily be filled by charging England for reparations, for under the "union dividend" we have the poorest housing in the UK, lowest average wages, lowest life expectancy, highest rate of heart disease, highest level of child poverty, we have seen our manufacturing base virtually destroyed, our road system fall apart, increasing levels of outward migration of our most talented young people... Mr Burt should stick to what he knows best, "reality" TV scheduling.

77

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 13:11:22

# 73

It's pretty simple Pete (condescending tone intentional).

Alex Salmond graduated with an MA in Economics and History. He was first employed as an assistant economist in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland from 1978.

In 1980, he joined the Royal Bank of Scotland, for which he worked until 1987, first as an assistant economist, then as the Oil Economist and latterly as Royal Bank Economist. While with the Royal Bank, he wrote and broadcast extensively for both domestic and international outlets.

He also contributed regularly to oil and energy conferences, and in 1983 devised the “Royal Bank / BBC Oil Index” which continues monthly publication to this day.


Did people know re: Joke McConnell
Aged sixteen, he joined the Scottish National Party[seems he has got dumber with age], but later resigned his membership, becoming a vocal opponent of Scottish independence in later life.

Jack began work as a mathematics teacher at Lornshill Academy in Alloa, Clackmannanshire (a position he retained throughout his subsequent council service).

McConnell served on Stirling council for eight years, while retaining his job at Lornshill. He served as Treasurer from 1988 until 1992, and was the Leader of the council from 1990 to 1992.

I think Alex Salmond's work experience within a commercial organisation stands him in far better stead than Jack's time wie the cooncil.

Perhaps it's time to read the archives of Jack's time wie the council.

Try all you can Pete - it's clear that the Scottish public are far more inclined to see Alex Salmond as First Minister than Jack joke McConnell.

Frankly, everytime McConnell speaks he is an embarassment first and foremost to himself. As a representative of Scotland - well it's cringe-making to watch.

78

Alba gu brath,

Forties Field Scottish sector of the North Sea 17/12/2006 13:16:57

Well well,
The now daily avent of SOS/ Scotsman unionist's wheeling out their big shot's continue's, I will continue to read your biast anti-Scottish subsrvient headlines on the web but, as for buying your or these other Scottish rags - forget it! It is better to buy the Independent an English paper (by and large) than to give money to you upper middle class begger's, with your bowing to Westminster, no wonder you lowland Brits backed your London Crown's ethnic cleansing of Gaelic speaking Highlanders in the post Culloden murder's. Shame on you lot - drop dead!!!

79

grannie,

glasgow 17/12/2006 13:25:34

Archie White 70

Thanks for that Archie.

80

Bram Seer,

All of Scotland 17/12/2006 13:26:19

And who gave him his knighthood?
He's been telt tae make these statements, it payback time for Peter.... and he is just the first,remember the Boy scout motto " Be Prepared" they will be wheeling them out the woodwork. He sold out Scotland before,and he is doing it again. The phrase.. Hung ,drawn and quartering comes to mind....

81

Shug,

UK 17/12/2006 13:29:03

80. Thanks for the helpful insight into this debate! Seem to recall reading that there was a fair few Scots queuing up to do the killing after Culloden.

The history is of no relevance to the current debate, tragic though it was.

82

Calum10,

17/12/2006 13:30:24

We need to remember that Sir Peter Burt has advocated that the Scottish executive introduce a hotel tax, in effect a tourism tax.

Whenever such a tax has been introduced elsewhere overseas it has led to a significant fall in tourist numbers.

The tourist industry is the largest employer in Scotland and has a turnover of £5 billion.

Do we really want to damage such an important industry in this way?

By the way the Scottish executive does support Sir Peter Burt's tourism tax.

83

SC,

17/12/2006 13:36:28

Did anyone read the article in the Sunday Times today about population growth?

It was arguing that it is good - as it can be.

However despite saying population growth was beneficial, the article said that Scotland's would decline while the UK's would grow by 20% - without comment!

This is the central point of the argument. Managed decline from London - or sorting out our own problems! I wonder what the Irish will choose.

84

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 13:39:46

Jeff # 79

I don't see many economists coming out to support Salmond. Time spent with the Royal Bank of Scotland hardly enhances his political CV, that's as about as corrupt an organisation as Farepak and BAe.
Does anyone outside of this forum take smarmy Salmond seriously? I don't see many hands up for that.

85

Gaga,

Panama 17/12/2006 13:40:22

Excellent riposte #78, and hope to see your likes back home again soon! Scotland's liberation will bring forth a fresh and ambitious period of visionary national re-development, national pride, national prosperity, and vibrant national self-confidence. The world will come to look on Scotland, again, as a place where Enlightenment and innovation is at the forefront of everything we do. There will be, in effect, a massive Independence Dividend, which will make the so-called Union Dividend look like little more than a dodgy ten-bob note stuffed into a dirty brown envelope - which is exactly what it is Ms Alexander. Those advocating Independence would be wise to further develop the Independence Dividend message, as a counter to the Quisling Unionists dirty brown envelope and its contents.

86

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 13:53:40

Pete #86

LORD Fraser of Carmyllie, the Conservative former lord advocate, has said that he believes Scotland could flourish as an independent country.

Fraser, chosen by Jack McConnell to chair the inquiry into the cost of the Holyrood building project, poured scorn on Labour claims that Scotland was dependent on English taxpayers for economic survival.

His comments follow the publication of calculations by Grant Thornton, the independent financial consultancy, which reveals that Scotland would raise as much revenue as it spends when North Sea oil revenues are taken into account.

Economist Maurice Fitzpatrick used government statistics to calculate that, at current oil prices, Scotland’s position would be virtually unchanged if it broke away from the rest of the United Kingdom.

Fraser, held several government posts between 1982 and 1997, said he believed Scotland could emulate the success of Ireland’s booming economy.

Fraser intervened in response to what he termed “pathetic” Labour attacks on nationalism, the latest of which is a claim by home secretary John Reid that Al-Qaeda would target an independent Scotland.

“It’s a silly argument that Scotland could not go it alone. Scotland could certainly stand on its own two feet.

87

Donald Dubh,

Glasgow 17/12/2006 13:58:17

Dear Dear,

If the bulk of the comments above are anything to go by we will be in deep trouble if the Nats get in.

By the way, Nats is a good description of the thinking power of those who propose complete independence.

88

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 14:03:57

Jeff # 88

You are assuming that the UK government would just hand over control of oil revenues, come-on that's complete pie in the sky. Even if they did, oil prices are set to fall to $53 by 2008 - World Bank report. Salmond's an oil eonomist what will that do to his projections?

"It’s a silly argument that Scotland could not go it alone. Scotland could certainly stand on its own two feet." Your quote. What kind of economy, siege, subsistence? There is a lot of "could" among your assertions, not much self-confidence there.

89

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 14:06:35

86 - Pete

Don't know why you have such a big thing about Alex. Even most of his opponents have a grudging admiration of him.

Every opinion poll (including Labour's own) puts Alex head and shoulders above all other party leaders, as preferred leader of our country. While accepting that you may not like it, you cannot pretend it is not true.

Who would YOU have in charge? Jack, Wendy? Inspiring choice.

90

Neil,

9% Growth Party 17/12/2006 14:07:36

Scots are paying about twice as much on council tax as the English partly because our councils are particularly wasteful & partly because Holyrood keep giving them extra things to do (smoking police anybody) some of which are fully funded & some of which are only "fully funded".

Since over 80% of council spending comes from the central grant it would only take a 20% cut to end local taxes. I have hopes the new democratic voting system will help but Holyrood should start cutting back council's duties. Good schools, good roads & effective cleansing are what councils are for - the rest is optional.

91

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 14:29:54

# 91 Pete

I am committed to seeing an independent Scotland. Scotland is a country. It should not in my opinion be ruled by another country - i.e. England.

I do not think that your arguement that Scotland cannot stand on it's own two feet holds very much water as it based on smears by Labour and Conservative Unionists who are terrified of losing the status quo.

I really do believe that Labour party members in Scotland are so blinded by fear of the unknown and that they allow themselves to belief the propoganda machine from London.

We can manage our own country and we do not need the help of the English to do so. If we make mistakes then so be it - they will be our mistakes. Ultimately, in the long run we will be an independent nation whose economy will be based on the model of Norway and Ireland.

Labour have made Scotland a nation dependant on council jobs, low-paid call centre jobs and precious little else. I'd like to think we can aspire to more than that.

Perhaps in Paisley you are happy to lead that life until you die.

I am most certainly not and want a better Scotland for my generation and generations to come.

92

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 14:30:23

Bill, Dunblane # 92

I can honestly say that I have never heard any politician say the have a grudging respect for Alec Salmond. And, I think I will wait for next Mays election results to see who is preferred by the Scottish electorate; I get the feeling we have been here before.

93

Phil o Brian,

17/12/2006 14:31:15

As a unionst (though wavering as the the current position is hopless and I can see no way back), I find the arguements that Scotland could not run its own affairs as bizarre. However, what worries me is the quality of the current MSP's including the SNP ones. Voting for independance (I think), will see the country going backwards before going forward. How long will it take for us to sort it out. How will we attract the right calibre of people to parliment. The next generation could benefit from this, but it will take a considerable period of time 10-15 years?
Also, why do we keep blaming the English for the Iraqi war. Was it not Blair/Brown who took us in?

94

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 14:31:37
95

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 14:33:28

Jeff # 94

How are we ruled by England? The whole of England is up in arms at being run by Scots and there is likely to be a backlash on that basis.
To any English reading this, David Cameron is Scottish too!

96

old soldier,

Black Isle 17/12/2006 14:34:51

Aye and how much did his commission cost us

97

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 14:34:53

#96

The quality of MPs in Westminster is hardly much better. Holyrood is a young democracy and for that we need to allow time.

Although, I agree that their are a sizeable number who make you wonder how the got selected by their party let alone elected!!

As one East Kilbride voter said at the last General Election - you could pin a red rosette on a donkey and people would still vote Labour!

Their are pockets in Scotland where I really worry about the mentality of the folk who vote.

98

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 14:40:23

Jeff # 100

There are too many people in Holyrood playing politics instead of trying to better the lot of the Scottish people. Most of them are in the SNP.

How does arguing about Shirley McKie's fingerprints help you in Dundee?

99

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 14:42:16

#98 Pete

1. Taxation - possibly the most important single priority of any country - administered by Westminster (in England)

2. Defence - this Labour government (run from Westminster) - have ruined the British Army (moral and actual numbers leaving/joining)

I do feel sorry for English voters who have a Labour Government who are more interested in foreign wars and the rights of anybody else but the indigenous population. Being proud of being English has for many years been seen as racist - Labour have allowed this to flourish through it's successive Home Secs.

The English I believe have arrived at the point they want their country back and when they hear the Scots saying the same they naturally say 'fine ... we want our independence too!'

The trouble for Labour is that nobody believes them anymore - on almost any level.

I cannae wait for Gordon Brown to become PM - watch the whole of England turn on him. In Scotland Brown is seen as a big fat toad who prefers Englishness (goals) and Britishness (over being Scottish) - essentially he tries to palys both sides and as anyone knows - you can fool some of the people, some of the time ... eventually folk get wise to you.

That time has arrived.

100

Sanny,

Portugal 17/12/2006 14:43:02

25. Old Roy, Black Isle:
You are absolutely correct! I assume you know where to pick up your white stick and don’t forget to feed your “seeing eye” dog.

To the NL professional propagandists - who haunt these columns – it won’t work this time, our eyes have been opened to the real horrors of Labour – Old and New. Perhaps you should spend some time reading the McCrone Report and try to explain (or lie) that away. Let’s face it the public have rumbled New Labour, as a party bereft of ideas and led by that world champion liar, Blair, supported by the most incompetent of Chancellor’s, Brown.

Returning to Mr. Peter Burt (I abhor these self aggrandisement titles) a more detailed look into his various failures will show him to be more than qualified to lead a committee producing NL propaganda. NL are very good at generating “dodgy dossiers” and “iffy Inquires” – MWD, Hutton Report let us not forget poor Dr. Kelly and more recently the Saudi fiasco not to mention police enquiries into Mr. Blair and his cohorts. Or, as a previous propagandist contributor says, am I just maligning these innocent people.

I know I shall be returning to vote for the party – any party – that will free us from the Union millstone around our necks. At present, that seem to be the SNP or the SEP.

Scotland was once a proud Nation before the enforced Union and that was a time when we were economically and military weak. Today economically we have the potential to be one, if not the, strongest Nations in Europe. We do not need handouts(?) from Westminster, we only require what is rightfully ours and we must be prepared to fight for it. I’d rather see Scotland with a sword in its outstretched hand than a begging cup. Stand up Scotland and be a proud Nation again!

101

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 14:45:49

Pete #101

Oh cmon Pete ...you surely can do better ...

Jack McConnell awarded £750,000 compensation via the Scottish Executive in an out-of-court settlement.

He insisted there had been an "honest mistake" by fingerprint experts who wrongly accused her of intruding on the murder scene in 1997.

You expect this not to be debated .... seriously Pete??

102

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 14:52:17

Jeff # 102

You don't have an answer, you are more concerned with slagging off the government than making any positive pronouncements about how smarmy Salmond is going to make things better. Salmond is the same, he never says how he will make things better. Look at their website, the "Policy Archive" is empty, there's a telephone number for you to phone to get a policy; I wouldn't be surprised if it was a premium rate number.
If you want Brigadoon vote SNP. Nicola the Fish would be preferable, at a push, to smarmy Salmond.

103

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 14:54:56

Jeff # 105

It's parish pump politics, political point scoring and time wasting until they can get re-elected at the next election. They can't even get a bridge built.

104

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 14:58:40

95 - Pete - Indeed we have, or it may just be a wee bit of deja vu.

Maybe you should get out of the Labour party's offices in Paisley more often - you might find other people have differing views.

I want Alex Salmond as First Minister next May.

Please let us know who you would have in that position. (Anybody but is not an option)

If you are old enough to remember, do you think Norman Buchan would have approved of New Labour?

105

Gordon,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 15:00:33

"A 6.5% tax on an income of £30,000 would be £3,250"

Someone needs to go back to school: 6% of £30,000 was £1,800 in my day!

106

Sanny,

Portugal 17/12/2006 15:03:16

91. Pete, Paisley: -
Are you scared of Westminster? I have no doubt they will want to negotiate and unfair proportion of the known resources – but would they risk a civil war, for that is what you are implying– NO. It is worth remembering that the last time we were this close Westminster had contingence plans to move troops to the border I doubt they would dare this again. These things are now governed by international norms and agreements and I think if you research this, the lines have already been drawn.

Maybe you have some idea that we should resurrect the Auld Alliance. No need, Scotland has a good name in the rest of the world and in particular Europe, whereas England’s name ain’t so good. America too has a very strong Celtic bias. I believe pressure would be brought on England to come to a fair settlement.

Stand you ground Pete you don’t have to be a doormat.

107

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 15:08:06

Sorry typo: - contingence line 6 should read contingency

108

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 15:13:38

Pete

As is apparent by your attacks on Alex Salmond you fear his voter appeal.

You have good reason to :-)

BTW: I think I have replied to every 'fragile' comment you have made.

Labour in Scotland are particularly pathetic and inneffectual. Unless you count lying to the electorate - in that area the are miles ahead of ANY party.

109

Royster,

17/12/2006 15:22:09

#110. I think you may overestimate Scotland's importance. Everyone loves the Irish but they never got any help. England too has natural allies (if we end up going back to the Middle Ages with this ludicrous separatism) - Russia, Portugal, Netherlands, Norway. USA would be split - real politik v emotion. Wonder which one would win?

110

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 15:23:47

Bill, Dunblane # 108

I've been wracking my brain since you posed the question at 1406 Bill. Worse case scenario and the SNP were able to form an administration, I would say Nicola Sturgeon. But, only because she doesn't look like a "Cabbage Patch Doll."

The Scottish Assembly has got parochial and inneffectual. A Scottish Parliament with all the powers of a sovereign nation might be different, but not with the same elected personnel. The same faces would ensure that politics went back to the playground. If Scotland was a sovereign nation you would get a lot of Scottish Westminster MPs coming back. They would have to considered in the melee that would follow independence.

Sanny # 110

Name one Scottish politician who is known outside Scotland - Tony Blair!
You get my vote for the worst jibe of the day with that "doormat" reference; you should were a hat out in the sun.

111

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 15:33:33

Jeff # 112

Voter appeal, he might appeal to a certain section of the population of Brighton. Okay, tell me how many seats his party will win by in May. What's he going to do for policies then?

112

GOM,

17/12/2006 15:35:19

Money for local services should be collected through VAT, not income tax. That way those who spend most pay the most. This is logical since the more you buy the bigger the burden you place on services.

113

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 15:36:58

#113

Having lived in the USA for 2 years, Spain for 1 and Germany and also travelled fairly extensively around the globe I think I can say in my experience the Scottish and Scotland are much loved.

England I do not think has so much good will - at least not in Europe where they are seen as contributing to Europe with anti-European Govertments, football hooligans and generally uncultured tourists on holiday.

Your attempt to portray Scotland as an isolated race is as pitiful as it is innaccurate. There are millions of Scottish expats who have made their home the world over and as Sanny #110 says - they have a very good reputation. Not all English expats are of course rude and arrogant but they have a fair share out there!

114

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 15:37:24

#112 - What do you mean by that last comment exactly?

115

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 15:41:47

Sorry that should be #115

What are you inferring by the Brighton comment?

116

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 15:47:54

Jeff # 119

That he would be popular in Brighton.

117

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 15:54:23

#120 Why Brighton?

118

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 16:10:26

# 122 Nicely (and accurately) said ;-)

119

Bill, Dunblane,

17/12/2006 16:18:49

114 - Pete

Thanks. (although I was really asking about who in the Labour party you would have as first minister)

There are good guys and wan.., sorry, numpties in all political parties, even the Tories - Julie Kirkbride, if you know what I mean. ;)P

Like Jeff, I wondered what you meant with the Brighton remark.

However - off to the local for a couple of Sunday afternoon pints and a bit of face to face discussion - may catch you all on the flipside.

120

conservative,

17/12/2006 16:24:31

Anyone who believes the SNP's spin is living in cloud cuckoo land. There is only 1 way forwards and that isn't independence but union - just not under the New Labour fools.

121

England for the English,

17/12/2006 16:58:17

Please free England from the pain of being joined to Scotland. All you have to do is vote and you get your independance, but you can not even agree with each other long enought to do that. We won't miss you and while we are at ityou can take the current crop of dishonest, war mongering political leaders back to Scotland with you.

122

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 17:04:37

Yon Paisley Pete and his constant Brigadoomsday scenarios is more than enough to waken up all Ripped-off Mac Winkles here and elsewhere in the world.

He must be related to either the Krazee frog pus brothers or Elvis Paisley (Brillo) himself

123

Booster,

West Lothian 17/12/2006 17:05:16

What price the union?

The so called unionists are so desperate to keep Scotland in their decrepit union they apparantly don't give a damn about the consequncies of their scare mongering.

Sure they can frighten enough Scots out of voting for independance for a while but what good will that achieve in the end?
Once proud Scots pleading with growing English nationalists not to abandon us?

What a shameful existance to wish upon us.

124

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 17:10:14

126. You'll only replace them with dishonest, war mongering political leaders of your own and then you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.

125

nick wilson,

Vancouver, B.C. 17/12/2006 17:10:19

Let's hope that when Scotland eventually gets her independence, the new national government will make Anger Management course fees tax deductible for its supporters.

126

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 17:17:09

Years gon by and Tamson turned to sand
We're told, how we're told, he lived in his ravaged land
He could not stand the siege by sea
Or the fate of the Darien
So he stretchered out his noble palm for the gold of the Englishman

Then he killed his kin at Culloden
He scattered them afar
He made his stand for Cumberland
And the waning of the 13th star.

127

Boggle fey the Bog,

17/12/2006 17:18:11

Hey can anybuddy tell mi whit 6.5% o' 30grand is, cos when a went tae skuul it wisnae £3,250, mibi am jist auld an huvnae, goat the hing o' this 'New Mathematics' jist as a huvnae got the hing o' this 'New Labour' but wan things fur sure their baith liars!!!

For the benefit of the mathematically challenged,

Including 'SER' Peter Burt (or should it be 'Burke'?) and Eddie Barnes for not checking his figures (typical juorno)
6.5% of 30,000 = 1950.

Nae wunder ITV is fair knackered wi numpties like yon in cherge ae the purse strings!!!

There is also an assumption being made by him that no 'Tax Allowances' will be given i.e taxed on every pound you earn rather than having a 'Tax Exempt' portion as is the norm with UK Income Tax


Let the Tricentennial Year be OUR Freedom Year

128

Ewen,

England 17/12/2006 17:18:51

Having looked at the SNP website, as suggested by a lady on this forum, it is rather short on detail.

Today's queries:-

1) If Scotland's not going to be in NATO, what's going to happen to the NATO forces based in Scotland?

2) With 8.5% being our share of the Defence Budget: how are we going to fund all the current infrastructure, or which Scottish bases will be closed?

3) How much will it cost to re-instate the Scottich Regiments? Where will we train them, and how much will it cost - UK Infantry training is done in Catterick and Wiltshire?

4) An independaent Scotland in Europe seems something of a paradox. With 70% of UK Law already dictated to by Brussels, how will an Independent Scotland avoid being dictated to? Particularly, when we'll be a very small fish in the pond.

5) How will we regain control over fishing? When it seems likely we'll either have to re-negotiate entry to the EU or continue with the current treaties - Rome, Maastricht. Thanks to Edward Heath, even Maggie couldn't keep Spain out of UK Fishing waters.

6) If we sign up to the Euro, how will we have any significant influence over monetary policy? If we keep Sterling, we'll have even less influence than now, since we won't have any MPs at Westminster?

7) If we've so much natural resources: why is the UK becoming very reliant on Russian gas?


Regards,

Ewen Miller,

Born and bred in Arbroath. Now working and living in Wiltshire.

129

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 17:19:27

When will you come back again?

130

Booster,

West Lothian 17/12/2006 17:22:45

Hey "England for the English" it was the majority of English MPs in Parliament that voted for the illegal Iraq war.

If Scotland was independant we wouldn't have Scottish troops fighting over there for Bush or Blair.

131

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 17:36:43

113. Royster
Hello Royster I wondered when you’d show up with your usual Unionist propaganda.

Did I mention Scotland’s importance – that’s your spin!
I said Scotland had many friends this I know from spending my working live traveling around this world of ours. Regretfully I didn’t find so many English friendly countries. I’m not being racist – I can’t be - my wife’s from Dorset!
The US of A are very friendly and supportive of their interested in the place of origin which for many is Scotland. I believe there are more of us in the US than here. May I remind you of the US Jews attitude to Israel. Note, I spend much of my retirement in Portugal and I assure you your lager louts have used up most of the good will you once had in this beautiful country.

Your comment adds little that affects my 110; try reading the original post at 103 and respond in a constructive way. I will try to reply but I am busy this evening.
Sanny

132

Trevor,

Edinburgh 17/12/2006 17:37:08

Burt's comments assume that we need to maintain the current level of spending on supposed 'services'.

In reality, billions of pounds worth of savings could be located from cutting economic red tape, merging the 32 local authorities into a lesser number and rolling back their responsibilities, reforming the NHS, and having an Executive which doesn't attempt to micro-manage every aspect of our citizen's lives - all changes that the current administration is frankly too feart to make!

It is indeed time: for a Scottish Government that is willing to take the radical steps our country needs to move forward, not a cowering bunch of second-rate apparatchiks desperate to cling onto power at all costs.

133

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 17:47:46

This is all rhetoric. The "Unionists" must be quaking at the thought of Salmond victory in May.

If all that say they want independence did want it, you would do something about it. Talk is cheap, prove you want independence and take it. Or, wait for the election in May and depending on the result, maybe the English will give it to you.
Take to the streets and demand it now. When you can take enough of the Scottish people with you then you will have what you want and talk of Quislings can stop. Proclaim Salmond now as First
Minister, or maybe, it can it just wait till May, eh?

I'm waiting for the excuses now!

134

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 17:52:06

You mean supporters of the dependency parties, Paisley Pete?

135

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 17:53:28

#133 - You will find answers to all of that what you list what the party manifesto is laid out proper before May.

As it happens at the moment the Labour party is happy to make wild unsubstantiated claims - none of which they can base on fact.

But to briefly touch on your points

1. Under Labour almost 2,200 MoD jobs have been lost in Scotland, in addition to over 2,600 in shipyard jobs. On top of this, eight military bases and two supply depots have either been run-down or closed - so far.
The MoD employed 10,000 fewer civilian and service personnel than Scotland's population share warranted, and spent £420 million less in procurement. In comparison to say Wiltshire - with Larkhill/Bulford/Boscome Down/Porton Down/Warminister - to name a few - Scotland does not exactly do that well out of Defence in the current set-up.

2) We will not need to finance Nuclear subs for one thing - perhaps they can be relocated to the River Avon?

3) Re-instating the Scottish Regiments will cost a lot less on the debacle so far. Millions of pounds wasted on creating a super regiment that nobody wanted in the first place - millions of pounds wasted on summer camps which yielded hardly any recruits - millions wasted on advertising in the media in Scotland with an average of £100,000 per new recruit!!!! Hardly a success story. Did you know that at the point that Geoff Hoon, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair decided to mess up the Scottish Regiments - their total shortfall was around 5-10% - it now stands at almost 25%. Total success eh!

4) I think you will find that most European nations - apart from Germany and France are unhappy with the way Europe works - an Independent Scotland could negotiate as other countries do - likely better to the benefit of Scotland.

5) An independant Scotland could certainly do no worse than successive Labour and Tory govts now can they.

6) Scotland needs to have a voice in Europe and being part of Europe

136

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 17:55:26

I'm thinking up a song here along the lines of

There's Paisley Pete
Walking down the street
With his head held down in pride

137

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 18:03:45

Jock Tamson #s 139 141

excuses@jocktamson.scotland.caledonia.alba.

Talk is cheap, passion comes at a price, payable by someone, else on your behalf.

138

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 18:06:23

pardon, Pete? Didn't qite understand that

139

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 18:09:30

I wasn't asking for excuses anyway

140

England for the English,

17/12/2006 18:15:54

The truth is, if Scotland goes its own way, we don't care....it will make no difference to England. We see Scotland as a load of drug taking layabouts who spend all their time blaming the English for their problems or argueing with each other.

Oh and not to forget that since devolution Scotland has dropped 1% behind England every year.... The Scottish NHS, better not even mention that

141

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 18:19:19

145. May I extend the hand of reciprocality to you? There is no point in arguing. The point being east.

142

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 18:20:11

What's wrong with Scottish NHS? It's out performed English NHS on waiting lists and time from diagnosis to operation/medication.

NHS stans for National Health Service i.e. it's UK wide.

Numpty

143

England for the English,

17/12/2006 18:24:11

Its the SCOTTISH NHS Angus And you need to check your facts.... Look how its performance has gone down since devolution, like your economy

144

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 18:25:55

England for the English # 145

Jock Tamson doesn't get it, that I can believe.
If you want independence go and take, otherwise stick to knitting because your poetry is going nowhere.

"The truth is, if Scotland goes its own way, we don't care....it will make no difference to England."

It will make a difference to England, how is just not clear at the moment.

145

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 18:29:16

You better have some links to back up your assertion England, otherwise you sound a little nieve

146

England for the English,

17/12/2006 18:29:55

Pete we will have the pleasure of not having to listen to a bunch of moaning Scots. Thats got to be a change for the better.

147

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 18:35:08

Paisley Pete certainly makes a good argument for all those who should be proud to hold their heads down.

148

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 18:44:07

PETE - YOU HAVE STILL NOT EXPLAINED WHAT YOU MEANT ABOUT

ALEX SALMOND AND BRIGHTON

Please explain what the link is?

149

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 18:54:01

#151

You seem to be a nasty litte man from Englandshire

150

weeshooie,

Livingston 17/12/2006 18:54:08

England for the English__Keep it , you are more than welcome.
Burt is being funded by the Government to come up with what they want us to hear in the run up to the annihilation of Labour in May. in fact just about every report we read is funded by Blair or McConnell. they have to try to do everything they can to win and they will stop at nothing.
does anyone think 151 is racist or anti-Scottish? or is he just lacking an education?
I know the race laws are just a wee bit skewed in favour of the English. we already have people being charged with racist remarks fro saying the same thinks this numpty is regurgitating.

151

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 18:56:22

Off for a post dinner kip!

152

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 18:58:52

Enjoy Jeff.

153

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 18:59:22

Pete, Paisley: -

Most of my very large family live in Paisley, my Dad being one who escaped. Pete you have remindded me why I never visit Paisley, the nearest I get is to the airport to come to this wonderful country of Portugal.
Sanny

154

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 19:00:17

Jeff # 153

You have lived a quiet life. Clearly, you have never been to Brighton. That town is renowned for it's gay (homosexual) culture. I was suggesting, not that smarmy Salmond was gay, but that some residents of Brighton might find him to their taste.

Jock Tamson # 152

You are a patriot in name only. What the SNP would describe as a "Ninety Minute Patriot." Even less when one considers the effort you have put into your posts here. You are a ninety second patriot; get out of bed, go to the bog, have a squirt, look in the mirror, mouth "Scotland forever" and go back to bed, back to your 2 litre bottle of English cider.
Close enough? Next time, remember to flush.

155

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 19:04:28

Sanny # 158

Your Dad tells me that he is glad your are in Portugal, at least you're not getting into so much trouble there.
Remember what your voting for in May, the future of Scotland, not your future in Potugal.

156

livilion,

livingston 17/12/2006 19:06:08

133. Ewen, England


1) What Nato forces based in Scotland?
Name them or their bases.

2)What current infrastructure? be specific.
For political reasons no major Army Corps have been based in Scotland.
Feart the natives might get their hands on them.

Presently 2.5-4% UK GDP (~$50-$55billions) is spent annualy on the ability to deliver 160 nuclear warheads on Russia, or terrorists, and to be able to conduct two wars on foreign soil at the same time.

Most European States spend about 1-2% GDP on defence Scotland would be the same.

3)0.9-2.0% GDP.
Training?
Glencourse, Dreghorn, no issues there.

4) Made up statistic. We'll be no worse off than now.

5) We are already in the EU.
Do you imagine Brussels expelling Scotland OR England?
Get real.
Perhaps having a direct voice that regards fishing as a vital national interest rather than a provincial distraction would secure better terms.
Certainly the UK has done us no favours.

6) What influence do we have in monetary policy now?
eg Interest rates are set by the Bank of ENGLAND to suit England, not the 8.5% of the UK population north of the border.

7)Scaremongering by London as we have been hearing for 30+years.

In total, the industry has invested over £40 billion in capital and operating expense in the UKCS over the last five years.
Hardly likely when its all about to just run out now is it?

We have 300 years of coal reserves which it is becoming more viable every day to extract and use as clean burning hydrogen.
http://business.scotsman.com/markets.cfm?id=120772006
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=98&con...
Report Unsuitable

157

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 19:08:07

Hey, Paisley Pete. Normally I'd tell you to hang your head in shame for remarks like that but now I know you take pride in hanging your head in shame.

Fair do's you're hanging in there but you're fast becoming a basket case on this thread.

158

England for the English,

17/12/2006 19:11:06

You lot do not know when you have had it so good...

All Scots in charge of any Political party, Scots MP's voting on English issues, but we can't do the same back.

If you get independance you will end up with the euro...What kind of independance is that?

we have been taking your oil money for years, and now thats its nearly run out you are going to vote for independance....

and you call me a numpty...

159

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 19:18:11

Jock Tamson # 162

You can't tell me to do anything, it's you who are being told what to do.
You have an open goal here Jock, your wit and sparkling repartee has got my atttention. Tell me about what Mr Alec Salmond is going to do to improve the lot of the Scottish people. And how is HE going to do it.

160

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 19:25:34

Here's another crap poem for Paisley Pete which sums up an ilk,

I wouldn't even try, fearing unknown things
Wait for another day, see what it brings
I feel it as I'm waiting on the lonely avenue
The eyes bearing down on me are somehow getting through

I'll hide myself away.
There's nothing I can do.

161

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 19:31:49

You need to ask Alex Salmond what he is going to do, not me. If you ask who I'd rather trust at the next election, it would be Alex Salmond but if an independent was to stand in my constituency with a lot of sense, then I would listen to what that person had to say.

162

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 19:32:40

Jock Tamson # 165

It took you all of 7 minutes to think that up, you ARE improving. You ARE that speech and policy writer for smarmy Salmond. Remind me again of just one of his policies.

Write me a poem about the deafening silence of smarmy Salmond's policies.

163

Pete,

Paisley 17/12/2006 19:34:58

Jock Tamson # 166

Letters that cross in the post etc. I am with you on your last post, I am prepared to listen to sense too, sense from any direction, but not rhetoric.

A draw?

164

Merouane,

17/12/2006 19:36:51

#163 Only half the oil has gone. We may well find more as well. Also, what's left is worth a lot more than what has been extracted already.

165

Alba gu brath,

North Sea 17/12/2006 19:37:09

Ok Mr Shug #83.
If you read my comment's and took them in you would realise that was exactally what I was saying (that Scots aka lowland Brits were with the Crown in London ok! Do you actually take things in or do you just have your mind made up already? The article is mearly pointing out a long time habit in the central belt of wanting London to take resonsability for Scotland rather than ourselves. At least make an an attempt to take the comment in, as for the reference to Culloden it was to show how far back some Scots have been willing to be treacherous & still are today!

166

livilion,

livingston 17/12/2006 19:38:18

163. England for the English

""..and you call me a numpty...""
Happy to oblige,

YOU ARE A NUMPTY!!

""...we have been taking your oil money for years, and now thats its nearly run out you are going to vote for independance.... ""

Yes but the value of what's left has been hit by global inflation meaning you've only had a third of the value of what's left.

Shame you wasted what you got away with on getting rid of trades unions, manufacturing industry, nukes, and bombing Iraq and Afghanistan.

""..If you get independance you will end up with the euro...What kind of independance is that?..""
No worse than we have now with the Bank of England and Whitehall.


""...All Scots in charge of any Political party, Scots MP's voting on English issues, but we can't do the same back...""

Aww diddums?
Did the naughty 72 Scottish MPs not let the other 580 Westminster MPs play?

Shall we send them to bed without their tea and no X-Box for a week?
That'll teach them.

Could be worse, you could be run by your own Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, opposition speaker for Higher Education(gawd helpyas!)

167

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 19:50:19

No chance, Paisley Pete, unless you get the first round up.

168

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 19:51:42

Unionists are the only ones who can afford rounds?

169

Booster,

West Lothian 17/12/2006 19:54:17

Hey England for the English, if you didn't care you wouldn't be loitering around here.

I suspect you are just a miffed little englander that has had his nose put out of joint because you see implied criticism of your cosey rose tinted englishness.

170

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 19:58:15

Unless it's for the army

171

England for the English,

17/12/2006 20:03:07

Livilion if you think Scotlands future is in manufacturing I bet the Chinese and indians are quacking.

172

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:07:29

176. England for the English seems to be about as true a statement at the moment as "England for the Ashes"

173

England for the English,

17/12/2006 20:08:42

Whats up Booster don't you like the fact that people in England want rid of Scotland too

174

England for the English,

17/12/2006 20:10:28

Don't worry Jock Tamson Scotland may qualify for something one day. lots of other 3rd world nations can do

175

Sambo,

The deep south 17/12/2006 20:15:03

People from Paisley are regarded as being cheap.
A paisley fellow appeared in court on a charge of having intercourse with a cat, when the preciding judge heard the man was from Paisley he immediatly dismissed the charge.
He had never before heard of a Paisley man putting anything in a kitty!

176

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 20:17:31

#163
Do you think UK political parties should not have Scottish leaders? Or English leaders with Scottish connections (Cameron)? Or English leaders who think they are English ("I am English" - Tony Blair in the House of Commons)?
I'm just curious what you think the rules should be.

177

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:18:50

Let me see, 179, if I can find the connection between 3rd world nations and England.

178

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:25:10

Ah yes, 179, England made them what they are today.

179

,

17/12/2006 20:27:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 236666, Article id was mapped to record!
180

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:30:24

184. They do tend to think about England, though

181

England for the English,

17/12/2006 20:32:29

181 I think that once you can stop argueing with each other in Scotland and become independant you can take your appalling leaders back up there with you

182

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 20:33:12

Not after I finished with them Jock! They like nothing better than a quarter pounder from MacDonald (and sometimes with cheese, they ain't fussy)But good call mate!

183

,

17/12/2006 20:33:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 236675, Article id was mapped to record!
184

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 20:35:19

#187
You didn't answer my question.

185

morris,

edinburgh 17/12/2006 20:35:25

145
Since devolution Scotland has dropped 1% behind?
1% of what ? Its bad enough that you dont know what you are talking about,but you cant even quote what you heard somebody else saying correctly!
Are we talking GDP or GNP(in fact do you even know what they are and what the difference is) and are we talking UK figure or the figure London claim is correct for Scotland except we have known the figures for Scotland have been doctored since 1958.
I wholly support the idea of England governing her own affairs as we will be doing, but the difference is I wish England a prosperous future ,where as you are living proof of why you can arrive on foreign shores wearling a kilt and be considered welcome but wearing a bowler hat would possibly get you shot!
The whole planet cannot be wrong!

186

England for the English,

17/12/2006 20:35:26

Angus I can see why you like English women, I mean lets face it you wouldn't want to go near one of your own would you

187

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:37:04

Do they call you Mor, Angus, when you're on the job?

188

England for the English,

17/12/2006 20:37:50

Morris what a quaint view you have of the Scots...everyone else thinks they are drug taking tight, scroungers, you are deluded if you think differently

189

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 20:38:29

Nah, usually God Jock!

190

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:41:03

Strange coincidence-that's what they call me

191

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:41:57

They must have mistaken you for me

192

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:43:37

Excuse me. Thought this thread was about dodgy figures.

193

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2006 20:45:57

To digress, Angus, my Irish name is used Mor often:
O'God, Jock

194

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 20:46:53

200

195

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 20:47:13

You are right Jock, we digressed from the point with chat about loose English women (dodgy figures included!)

196

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 20:48:26

Well done HIS. A hunnerbagged is a hunner in the bag.

197

morris,

edinburgh 17/12/2006 20:50:33

198 THey dont come much dodgier than Sir Peter Burt!

198

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 20:51:28

Thank you Angus. Fills in the time while I wait for "England for the English" to answer my question (#181).

199

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 20:53:21

You'll be waiting a while for an answer from the English HIS.

I'm still waiting for him to back up his assertion that Scottish NHS performs worse than the English NHS.

200

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 20:53:47

#194: Who you calling tight druggies?

Every country in the World has druggies, drunks and people who are deemmed to be bringing shame on the community!

What your forgeting is here is high percentage of people living on Scotland who are in low paid income so these people are hardly going to genouse as they canney aford it.

If we were paid as much up here in Scotland as the jobs doon far south of the boarder then you would have a case in two out of the three point.

When equailty doesney ixsested dinney prech like it does wee man.

201

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 20:59:48

Hi Eve, always pleased to see you turn up. There is a queue for answers from our friend from the South...

202

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:00:54

I think we've sent him homeward tae think again.

203

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 21:01:59

Shame

204

morris,

edinburgh 17/12/2006 21:03:10

194 Scotland has the distinction of producing more scientists per head of population than any other nation.We have contributed to this planets well being on a scale totally disproportionate to our population and the world knows it.
You on the other hand have never answered any of the questions levelled at you,and the reason is pretty obvious from your vocabulary!
All people have to do is read your entire contribution on here to realise you are a low life uneducated and have no idea of what a fool you look.
There can surely be no greater hallmark of an idiot than he does not realise he is otherwise universally recognised as one!

205

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 21:06:08

Sir Peter Burt, I had no Idear who he was untill today. So I've learnt somthing here he's the one that inflicts programmes such as I'm a Celbertray, get me oot of here, & Ant & Dec taking over the ITV most days. On us all.

So with programme such as these how is he qualyed to make a comment on Scottish indpendence. Clearly he would be better of commenting about how much the Labour party have to spend at this election because of the very unfourtunt scandle. Poor labour party (How I use to laugh when ma da chased them away at election time away fram oor hame, as they creaped pass. AH memorys!!!)

206

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:06:35

look we all want the same England is as fed up with the union as you are. Are you just upset because you think we in England are desperate to hang on to Scotland,well unfortunately thats not the case, England can only get stronger without Scotland, do us a favour vote SNP and clear off

207

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:08:20

Pete # 159

Why would gay voters find Alex Salmond 'to their taste' say over Jack McConnell?

I am very puzzled !

208

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 21:08:40

#207 His: He's a poor wee man (lost in a forenland)
Whoes got him self in a wee bit of a fankle with the locals.

209

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 21:08:56

It's a Miracle! "England for the English" is alive. Now about those questions...?

210

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:09:37

# 212 England for the English

You should speak to SNP HQ in Edinburgh - strap you to a van wie a megaphone and the Labour party are finished - droves of voters will be donating/voting to the SNP.

211

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:09:55

Oh Morris if only I had the benifit of a Scottish education, my vocabulary would be so much better, just like eve

212

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 21:13:15

#217
I supose it's my turn to point out that Eve is dyslexic. How about some answers to our questions, instead of insults.

213

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:13:20

Jeff if thats what it would take to free England I'm your man,

you should be ashamed, knowing what other countries have gone through to get independance and all you have to do in Scotland is vote, but you can't agree long enough to even manage that

214

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:13:25

Can you validate your assertion (yet another one) that England isn't desperate to hang onto us please? All previous governments have gone to great lengths to build a case for Scotland to remain part of the UK, including the current one. They also used lies, damned lies and stats as well as subterfuge to convince the Scots to remain. It's maybe a case of the Sun reading man (of which, I am convinced, you are one)on the street down south that wants rid of use but they are not able to grasp the reality of the facts such as how much revenue they stand to lose and as England fills with immigrants, it's revenue you cannot stand to lose. Eventually, your economy will collapse and the EU will not bail you out and the immigrants, which at this point bouy your emploment market, will leave with more of your economy.

However, that being the case, us Scots may give you some charity, after all, you are our southern cousin, we wouldn't like to see you out in the cold.

215

Graeme M,

Australia 17/12/2006 21:15:00

Sir Peter Burt, well, who's he anyway?. its amazing how these people crawl out of the woodwork to disparage all before, when anything exciting is happening. all supposed to be for the general public good will, when all the time its merely vested interest. He will be a Tory down to his 'Sir' grass roots you can bet...And heaven knows who needs them?...

216

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:15:04

Eve I apologise

217

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 21:16:17

Jeff: About EK, who come people would vote for a dokey if it had a labour satchy. Ma da use to say it was a Monkey. I grew up in that ofal town. (i wish I hadn't though)

But as someone who would never vote for a unionist, I would have to say I would vote for the labour party even if the ofered me a peerage. Though Lady Eve has a nice ring to it but my yearn for indepence and equality is much stronger.

218

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:20:58

Angus England has one of the strongest economies in the world, oil gas and coal together is less than 10% of our GDP. If you haven't noticed the current goverment are nearly all Scottish, which just shows what a divided nation you are, if they are pro union you only have yourselves to blame

219

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 21:22:00

Sorry wee mistake that reads wroungly in #223. It's "wouldn't" not "would"

220

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:22:33

#219 EFTE

We have oor fair shair of people who continue to vote for Labour - a bit like England who have 285 Labour MPs in England compared with 194 Tories ....

Seems England can't agree that Labour are NOT the party to give England back to the English ;-)

221

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:23:46

You should be ashamed, knowing what other countries have gone through to get independance and all you have to do in Scotland is vote, but you are such a divided nation you can't even agree long enough to even manage that.

Funny noone seems to want to answer that one?

222

morris,

edinburgh 17/12/2006 21:24:35

211
Exactly the point that most people (Labour voters apart) will realise.He has no qualification whatsoever to make this assertion.The man is not an economnist nor a graduate in an even remotely related discipline.His opinion is worth exactly the same as any other person.
Correct me if Im wrong but are the top position in ITV and BBC not appointments by HM Government (?)which guarantees that they are NOT impartial.
London have truly polarised the debate this time.
The choice is between Independence and the New Labour (same old Tory) party deception. No contest !

223

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:26:14

Jeff we are not going to do it for you, not while the oil is still there...

224

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:26:33

# 227 .... I think I just did

225

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:26:59

#229

So u are a Labour supporter then?

226

,

17/12/2006 21:28:27
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227

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 21:31:17

#227 EFTE: Why should we be ashamed by what other people vote (It's the people who don't that should be ashamed that their not pertisapeting in democrasy).

I've never voted for a unionist in my life so there for I'm not part of your little problem.

But while your making that comment why don't you go on a Welsh and Northen Ireland website and publish the same comment see if they'll answer the question.

Please do us all a favour and tell us the way they react to it, it would be intersting to know if all four parts felt the same way or differenty about that comment.

228

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:31:35

Astro! How are you?

229

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 21:33:44

#231
Well he answers a question with a question or an insult!

230

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:34:14

BTW EFTE your stated 10% GDP from oil and gas etc. is another assertion. Please provide evidence.

For example, 23% of GDP in England is from arms sales. That could or could not be a made up figure but nonetheless believable given Englands track record re: armanent sales.

231

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:34:50

Eve you may not vote for a unionist, but obviously lots of Scots do, or are the rest just that apathetic to independance

232

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 21:36:47

Well Pete I hope you enjoyed talking to my Dad; he’s been dead for twenty years. But then from your comments your brain dead anyway. Indeed if you had ever had the privilege of speaking to Dad he’d have destroyed you in his first sentence.

Having worked hard and saved equally so, I am in the happy and deserved position of being able to enjoy my properties in both countries. Summers in Scotland, winters in Portugal. It’s a good life; but it takes discipline and long term planning.

233

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:37:17

What is clear and I think nobody can honestly say is not the case - is that The UK has never really been comfortable with itself.

If we can extract the emotion from our unhappy state of affairs and accept that we need to separate then we can all be neighbours - who actually get on with each other.

I am not now and was never British despite the irrelevant type on my birth certificate or passport.
I was born Scottish, I will live my life Scottish and die Scottish - I only hope I die in an Independent Scotland.

234

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:37:57

Angus I am not going to do your research for you if you think you can prove me wrong then do the work, (you will find its all true) maybe do not want to face up to the fact that England is a great country and that we will be greater without Scotland

235

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:37:58

EFTE @237

See 220. Lies, damn lies and stats re: voting union. However, the threads are unravelling and the Scots are wising up to it.

236

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:38:27

#235 - lol - nice one - you noticed taht about them as well then.

237

Micropacer,

Inverness 17/12/2006 21:39:00

I really couldnt care how big a whole anything the SNP has in it and no amount of Scare stories from the Scotsman will change that.

Im no SNP supporter and if Independance is gained I will probably not be voting for them again so its irrelevant to me.

I will be voting SNP at the May elections on one policy only - Independance. I dont agree with a lot of their policys.

238

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:39:47

And there we have it ladies and gentlemen, judging by EFTE's comment @240, he's just another blowhard and a Sun reading blowhard to boot. Don't believe everyhing you read in the Sun, some of it is actually not true, except page 3 of course.

239

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:44:08

Whats up Angus cna't you find anything on google to prove me wrong

240

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 21:44:11

Page 3 is full of lovely English ladies who lie back and think of Angus...

241

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:45:47

Google?? Oh I see, you're of the Google generation. A sound bite expert. Glayva EFTE, you're on a winner there.

HIS

;-)

242

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 21:45:47

220. Angus Mor, God's Own Island:
Superb riposte to EFE Angus, but this guy is so thick I doubt if he will understand. Perhaps he’s another part of the NL propaganda machine. On reflection he’s even too thick for that!

243

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 21:46:12

#246
In a debate it's YOU who are supposed to back up your own claims. I've waited an hour and a half for an answer to #181. I can only conclude you have no credible response, so I'll leave it at that.

244

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:46:46

I wish EFTE would answer who he votes for

Labour
Tory
Libs
BNP
Greens

245

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:46:57

English ladies are allways dreaming of drug taking, foul mouthed,bigoted, sponging Scotsmen, I mean you're such a great catch

246

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:47:53

whatever .... he is clearly a HOOT !

247

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 21:48:20

I do wish Paisley Pete would answer my question?

248

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 21:49:06

#252
Compared to you such Scots would be.

249

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:51:45

EFTE is fun. I hope he becomes a regular here, as long as his mam lets him on her computer again of course!

250

Phil C,

17/12/2006 21:53:42

Burt is an erse!

251

,

17/12/2006 21:56:23
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252

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 21:57:12

I seem to remember we once had a referendum on independence and the Scots voted in favour by a majority 3 to 1. However the Westminster set the result aside because the majority did not represent 60% of the electorate.
It was something like that, but the old (very old) brainbox is not as good as it once was. Can any one enlighten me or point me to a link with the detail. Maybe it will shut EFTE up while he tries to think up some more drivel.

253

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 21:58:17

Man that was funny EFTE!! Sure you don't have some Scots in you like most of your English women??

You'd do well up here with humour like that!

254

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 21:58:56

#252 EFTE: You've clearly been watching too many Ewan McGreagor Flims (TrainSpoting was a great flim) but not the story of Scotland.

You obouselty haven't crossed the boarder often enough to see this is country like most is not they way the moives pay it to be.

I'm quite sure all you'se south of the boarder are siping tea with your pola black hats on speaking very polietly to one another (Or is that just the way it is in the moives

255

England for the English,

17/12/2006 21:59:37

Sanny spoken like a true Jock, ie from Portugal

Why is it that nobody wants to live there

256

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 22:01:24

251. JEFF, DUNDEE:
Re EFTE: - Have you considered two possibilities A/ He’s a wean and too young to vote! B/ More likely- He’s a loony and not allowed to vote!

257

England for the English,

17/12/2006 22:01:57

Sorry eve just choking on my Darjeling..You mean trainspotting wasn't true?

258

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 22:02:53

awae for a bath .... Shame EFTE wont say which party he supports

259

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 22:04:17

Did you know that one of the most iconic Englishmen in film Eve is the floppy haired fop, Hugh Grant.

Did you know that his full name is Hugh Mungo Grant an his family are from Speyside (his brother still lives there).

The other most iconic Englishman was James Bond and Sean Connery was the best (with exception of this new fellow but I haven't seen the film yet).

So it takes a Scotsman to be an iconic Enlgishman.

260

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 22:07:16

262. England for the English: -
Either you have problems reading or have severe problems with comprehension. Now tell me, are these words to big for you? Would you like me to write in words of one syllable?
Now go back and read the post again, the answer is there.

261

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 22:08:36

#263. Sanny: Not very PC comment, Why shouldn't lonnys be allowed to vote! I'm sure that was who the lonny party won a seat once in an election.

So Lonnyes are allowed to stand for parlement elections but no vote how strange.

Even people with savere Learning Disabilitys are allwoed to vote and mental health come under the same bracket so point B must be wroung.

262

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 22:08:39

#266
David Niven, another archetypal Englishman, had a Scottish father (and a motherw ho was 3/4 French).
Bond was created by a Scot.

263

,

17/12/2006 22:08:53
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264

,

17/12/2006 22:11:15
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265

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 22:13:15

#271
Maybe an independent Scotland could go into s*x tourism?

266

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 22:13:52

EFTE. Try reading. It helps, it really does.

As for SC. He's done rather well for himself, don't you think? He lives in the Carribean for most of the year to avoid the tax regime over here imposed by successive English governments.

As for the floppy haired one, why do you think we sent him to England?

267

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 22:14:17

EFTE:
Trainspotting was as real as Pulpfiction was, Yes theres people who resemble it but the majourty of people are don't fit in to this sort of moive stereo type.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117951/

268

,

17/12/2006 22:14:23
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269

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 22:17:15

#275
Insert "English" between "with" and "slappers"

270

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 22:17:24

We're a bit short on slappers up here EFTE, so we have little choice but to use yours.

271

England for the English,

17/12/2006 22:20:26

Angus I understand, I've seen Scottish women I can't blame you for not wanting to sleep with them..is that why you all leave Scotland as soon as you have a bit of money.

272

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 22:21:31

Hi Eve great to see your posts! I do like your sense of humour.

I totally agree with you the loony party won the last election and there must be a parcel of lunatics both sides of the border who voted for them. Let’s hope they are all remembering to take the medication before they go to the polls this time.

It’s true that a certified lunatic can’t vote, but lunatics that haven’t yet been certified are allowed to stand for parliament. And loonies like EFTE vote for them.

What do you make of EFTE, Is he on something?

273

HIS,

Edinburgh, ma wee but n ben in the highlands 17/12/2006 22:22:11

Maybe this is why EFTE wants England for the English.

274

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 17/12/2006 22:23:32

No you haven't EFTE. You haven't seen any Scottish women at all. In fact, I don't think you've been anywhere near Scotland. If you have, then I can understand your ascerbic vitriol (www.dictionary.com will help you with any big words) as you must be incredibly jealous, naturally.

275

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 22:25:04

#278 EFTE: WHAT ABOUT THE SCOTTISH WOMEN!!!!

Are you sure a wee man like you can see much futher above the hip bone to see what Scottish women look like. Cause thats the way it soundsto me.

276

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 22:29:04

EFTE why haven’t you answered my post at 267? Are you to busy taking reading and comprehension lessons.

277

,

17/12/2006 22:30:34
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278

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 22:33:42

#279. Sanny: Anything Possible espesally when he mentions Scots as being devided and then blankets us under on sad lonely stereo type. Possible fallen out with his English mates and looking for a wee bit of company know that he's wached Transpotting for 100th time since it was relasied (WHO KNOWS)

He ingored my Idea of asking the Welsh and N.Irish the same questions on one of there websites. Maybe he's allready fallen out with the Welsh for waching Tiwntown too many time and trying to put them under that banner. (Though I don't really know for sure.)

Lonlyness does strange things to people

279

Sanny,

Portugal and Glasgow 17/12/2006 22:36:33

Its Time!!
It’s also time that we oldies were tucked up in bed with a cup of hot chocolate that looks distinctly like a very large port! Thank you all for a very enjoyable evening in particular EFTE just you keep taking the medication. See you all tomorrow for another round of solving the problems of the world, beats watching Murdoch’s TV.
Goodnight
Sanny

280

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2006 22:38:17

#284: OH know I understand,

Your a Triedent fan.


Well I'm a River clyde (the river clyde the wonderful clyde) fan.

When Scotland become Independent will the English take triedent back and give it good home. This would be much apperatiated. Thanks Eve.

281

Duncan,

Scotland undefeated. 17/12/2006 23:10:16

England for the English.
No way matey. First you gave in to the Romans, then the French humped you. You are a bunch of Roman Normans, with a German monarch. The French have you lot sorted. You tried and failed with the Scots. Without us you are the middle of a doughnut. You lot couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper bag.

282

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 17/12/2006 23:38:05

STILL WAITING .... Paisley Pete!

283

Bill, Dunblane,

18/12/2006 00:17:05

Jings! I just went oot fur a pint and I missed all this fun.

Anybody still up?

284

Royster,

18/12/2006 00:33:12

#289. Duncan. Wasn't Robert the Bruce a Norman?

285

eric,

18/12/2006 07:55:30

Still voting SNP

286

WW,

Scotland 18/12/2006 09:11:52

WE may expect a lot more of this Unionist propaganda s**t before next May. But what else should we expect from this bunch of criminals?

287

Pete39,

Tassy 18/12/2006 10:22:21

Ach well, I would be quite interested in all those Labour MSPs who would declare their interest in serving in an independent Scottish parliament before the election. Their heart is in the right place. I also reckon Tony Blair has a good few years to go if he had the right job. Cheez he looks a lot older, you just have to give him a good time.

288

livilion,

livingston 18/12/2006 16:47:55

292. Royster / 12:33am 18 Dec 2006
No actually, he was Flemmish on his great grandfather's side.

289

Scullion,

Canada 18/12/2006 17:36:09

#298
I wouldn't push that "undefeated" line too far.
I'm as proud of my Scots heritage as anyone but it can't change history. Edward Longhshanks (Scottorum Malleus-"Hammer of the Scots") and Edward III had their way with us. The latter decided we were too much trouble for an unprofitable land and went after France. ("Flower of Scotland" really should enumerate which Edward was beaten at Bannockburn i.e. the ineffectual Edward II)
Think of Scotland v. England historically as Vietnam v. U.S.A. By far the majority of battles went the way of the larger country. However, the ultimate victory, a self-sustaining nation, was due to the indominitable spirit and pure persistence of the common folk and not force of arms.

290

Eric D,

L.A. 18/12/2006 23:19:35

This is the guy that turned The Bank of Scotland into
what it is today - established late 17 c end early 21 1st.


 

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